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I'm Steve carbon publisher of Wharton
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digital press and I'm here today with
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Simon Winchester who's editor of a
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fascinating and wide-ranging new book
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Pacific which covers a great deal of
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ground to read from the subtitle silicon
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chips and surfboards coral reefs and
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atom bombs brutal dictators fading
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empires in the coming collision of the
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world's superpowers
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Simon good afternoon hello you begin
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your book earth being a book talk about
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the fact that the Pacific Ocean is
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coming to symbolize the future that the
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Mediterranean was once the Inland Sea of
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the ancient world the Atlantic to some
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people was the Inland Sea of the modern
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world and that you can argue that the
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Pacific Ocean will be the Inland Sea of
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tomorrow's world
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what does that mean well it's the place
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where at least in my view the two great
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civilizations finally meet and confront
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each other and we have humankind
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originating in Ethiopia with one group
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going off east to Mesopotamia and the
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Indus Valley and Peking and the other
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group going through the Balkans and up
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into Europe many Europeans crossing the
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Atlantic into the Americas and under the
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impress of the manifest destiny making
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their way west to the shores of the
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Pacific and then after Balboa first saw
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it in 15-20 crossing it and then
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confronting the other great civilization
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so you've got the East and civilization
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on the west side of the Pacific and the
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west and civilizations on the east side
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of the Pacific it's all a bit of
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geographical topsy-turvy damn and how do
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these two peoples deal with each other
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and the way that has happened is that in
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the past they have generally speaking
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colonized or brutalized or enslaved or
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in some way spoiled the lives of the
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Easterners but then in the beginning I
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suppose in the 1970s the Americans
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withdrew from Southeast Asia
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the British withdrew from their vast
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colonial Imperium in the Pacific Ocean
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the Germans the Japanese have left and
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the Pacific peoples are now says it were
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standing on their own two feet for the
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first time since we Europeans
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began interfering with their lives and
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now it seems to me that these two great
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civilizations are have the potential to
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cooperate at long last with one another
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and I think as a consequence of that
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we're seeing a real sort of hinge point
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of history that we're going to see that
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shift in the sort of dominance of let's
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say Rome and it's going to move now to
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the dominance of let us say Peking or
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Beijing very roughly and that change of
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order is going to happen in and around
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the Pacific which is why I think the
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Pacific is important in all of
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humankind's futures interestingly one
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underlying motive of your book is the
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when you notice the end of the Vasco de
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Gama era the sudden and very wholesale
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distribution of world power and then
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after you just know that after half a
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millennium of the West's dominating
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Pacific it now seems to be the turn of
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the Asians and you argue that it would
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be a good thing that the Asia for the
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Asians office are possibly of greatest
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stability for the region why should the
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Asians do a better job than the West
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Minister because with the single
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exception of the Japanese in a spasm of
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unpleasantness from the 1930s to the
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middle of the 1940s the Asians have been
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much more benign in their management of
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the world than we Westerners have I mean
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the Chinese to give a classy example I
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mean the most populous country on earth
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has not with the single exception of
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Tibet really overreached itself they
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have remained contentedly within their
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own borders they've been the Middle
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Kingdom John Wall they have been content
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with who they are and not wishing to
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export themselves culturally or
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imperially in the way that we Westerners
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done I mean we Westerners have gone
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around the world dominating and may
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enslaving and influencing millions
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billions of people and generally
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although leaving in the case of the
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British and the Americans leaving the
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legacy of the English language that's
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true and certain types of legal
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frameworks and so forth and one might
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argue railways and postal systems and so
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forth but nonetheless generally speaking
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we have left a legacy which is embedded
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in it the seeds of all sorts of
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conflicts I mean you've only got to look
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in the Middle East and look at the
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borders that we drew look at India
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Pakistan look at Northern Ireland look
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at Israel so Eastern countries have not
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done that kind of thing generally
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speaking yes there have been some
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excesses so I think I would rather live
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in a world run by Asians than in a rat
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world run by us is it likely to be that
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smoother transition are we likely to go
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from a world run by Asians we're run by
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us to world run by Asians without
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conflict and disorder well that's my
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hope I think no they're going to be all
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sorts of rough patches which may take
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many decades to resolve and out of the
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classical situation is the one evolving
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at the moment in in the South China Sea
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which is the Chinese have this fairly
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worked out stratagem of expanding their
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Navy into the Pacific they've already as
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it were taken a factor if not de jure
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control of the South China Sea and they
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have these imagine Bastion chains of
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islands extending outwards all the way
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up to Hawaii and they think and in my
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view quite reasonably the Americans have
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dominated the Pacific Ocean naval air
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for the last 60 years we're a Pacific
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nation we have a big Navy we're rich and
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influential why can't we at least have
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maritime equivalents
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well the Pentagon regards that as
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threatening idea regarded as threatening
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in the slightest because the Chinese are
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not likely to do what we have done which
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is to colonize and enslave and dominate
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they just want to as I say enjoy
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equivalents but so long as that is
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feared by people then there's the
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potential for conflict there's also the
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potential for accidents of course and so
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the potential for conflict will lead
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undeniably to confrontations here and
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there but in overall general long-term
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historical sense nothing that can't be
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dealt with and then it'll all settle
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down into this new world order I think
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one hopes China does seem to be
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extending its territoriality
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sequentially in the Pacific from the
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first chain to the second chain to the
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third chain how should the u.s. react to
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that I think by trying to understand why
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she's doing this why China is seeking
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this maritime equivalents and not being
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fearful of its potential because I don't
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think that it is dangerous I think I
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mean a classic example is is the Yangtze
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River I mean I was watching recently
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this wonderful film I daresay have seen
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it called the sand pebbles with Candice
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Bergen and Steve McQueen on an American
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gunboat in the Yangtze putting down all
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sorts of problems in the 1920s and 30s
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reminds us that American warships
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Italian German French and British
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warships were able to operate deep
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inside China on the Yangtze River for 50
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years and that if anyone committed a
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crime for a ship the Sailor got involved
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in a fight in Wuhan or Chongqing that
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wouldn't be judged by the Chinese courts
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heaven no we were not gonna have one of
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our people judged by a Chinese Magister
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see we'll try them on our own course it
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was this principle of
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extraterritoriality which we you know
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arrogantly assumed was right but how
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would we feel if the Chinese Navy were
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operating in the Mississippi and one of
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their sailors gets involved in a fight
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in Hannibal Missouri and says we don't
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want to be judged by your Missouri
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courts will be judged by our naval
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courts so because we have behaved in a
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certain way in the Pacific doesn't
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necessarily mean that the rest of the
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civilized world and no one would argue
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that China is not part of the civilized
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worlds I mean after all their
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civilization is 20 times as old as ours
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I think they'll behave in a perfectly
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civilized manner they simply want
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equivalents and they want respect and I
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think they should be given it will you
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characterize Western dominance in terms
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of aircraft carriers nuclear tests coral
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bleaching and pollution
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and argue that the Chinese warships and
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them being a little unfair will lead to
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reverence accommodation admiration and
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awe and the question is why should the
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Chinese warships going out to the second
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and third chain of islands be more
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benign than the Western warships were in
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the same place because they they're
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simply seeking equivalents they're not
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suggesting that their warships are there
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for any malign purpose it's simply a
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symbol of the extension of Chinese
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influence Chinese cultural influence
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will follow the flag if you like in the
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same way that trade tended to follow the
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flag I just don't think we need to fear
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them but the Pentagon does and of course
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what does the the military-industrial
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complex too modest or the Chinese are
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ramping up their Navy so we need to get
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a second aircraft carrier into the
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western Pacific and we need to buy more
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submarines and we all know that that's
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that leads to leads nowhere except
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whatever increasing tax burden on the
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American people and let me shift gears a
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minute and you talk about climate change
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and you know the increasing extreme
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weather events in the western Pacific
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and North America but then you argued
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that the point and the planet may heal
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itself and that the world in its
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creature who survived and that the
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Pacific Ocean could serve as a gigantic
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safety valve that's essential to the
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future of the planet
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how will the Pacific Ocean help to
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provide some self-regulating remedy to
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the man-made disruption of the well
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there are two answers to that one is
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that undeniably the Pacific simply
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because of its vastness is an enormous
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absorber of heat from the Sun I mean its
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water holds heat much longer than rocks
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do if you stand under a rock in the
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desert at night the rock goes cold if
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you stand in a body of water it will
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retain that heat for a very much longer
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time the Pacific absorbs heat and as it
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does so it produces because it's taking
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so much more heat at the moment it
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produces more ferocious weather locally
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bigger storms all that sort of thing but
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nonetheless it is there to absorb the
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heat and to create yes by doing so
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inconveniences for human
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kind but nonetheless for the planet as a
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whole the fact that it is absorbing heat
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is a good thing because this helps the
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planet as a whole
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disregarding humankind survive it maybe
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it helps it whether these changes these
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distortions in the atmosphere but
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there's another aspect of this which I
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found completely fascinating in which I
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discovered when I was writing a book
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about the Atlantic Ocean which is that
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there is this creature which we didn't
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even know existed until 1989 which
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exists in all the oceans of the world in
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the warm waters from about 40 North to
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about 30 south called prochlorococcus
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which is a single-celled algal creature
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which absorbs carbon dioxide and expels
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oxygen and this is the most numerous
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creature on the planet trillions upon
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trillions of these things which emit
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oxygen such that 1 in 5 of the breaths
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that you and I are taking in the studio
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today has been generated by a creature
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that we didn't even even know existed as
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recently as 1989 well the thing about
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prochlorococcus is it loves warm water
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and so the warmer the waters get the
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warm that the higher the temperature of
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the oceans produced by the global
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warming that we all disapprove of the
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more prochlorococcus they'll be the
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greater the range the more carbon
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dioxide they limit their there they'll
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absorb and the more oxygen they'll emit
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this is a classic example of the planet
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healing itself the Gaia theory James
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Lovelock's theory that the planet as a
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whole is a self-regulating mechanism we
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humans are in irrelevance really we're
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just we're soon going to be fossils we
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will love be like ammonites and tryla
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bites will just be another slightly more
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annoying temporary inhabitant of the
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planet the planet will be okay will
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disappear hoist on our own petard
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troubled by the troubles that we created
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you close by talking about sailing
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canoes in navigation in the attempt to
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replicate some of the older
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trans-pacific ventures could you talk
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about that a little bit and it all
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where we going in the future Hokulea is
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a traditional Hawaiian sailing canoe
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huge thing about 60 feet long twin hulls
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two sails built in 1976 by a group of
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Hawaiians as Hawaii's gift to America
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for the bicentenary they weren't just
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gifting the physical physical object of
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the canoe they were gifting the skill of
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navigating without instruments because
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that's what the Polynesians did for
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thousands of years before we came along
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they you know this is big triangle with
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Hawaii in the north and Easter Island in
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the east and New Zealand or air tiara in
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the West and the Polynesians would
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happily sail from Easter Island to New
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Zealand without using any instruments
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without any compass without any sixth
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and just by studying the movement of
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clouds the Stars the feel of the waves
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the tracks of seabirds and things and if
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they wanted to go 5,000 miles from from
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Easter Island they could in the old days
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until we came along and said sorry
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Easter Island is Chilean and the next
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islands are French and then there's a
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British and these are American islands
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to sail through them you'll need a
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passport and they said what what's a
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passport and they swirl you need
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application forms and they said we can't
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read or write we've never seen a need to
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and the navigation effectively died
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people stopped doing this there were one
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or two people that knew how to do it one
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in particular when they hold him up to
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Hawaii in 1976 taught a group of local
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Hawaiians how to sail this canoe without
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any instruments and he said we can get
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to Tahiti in six weeks and they got to
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Tahiti in exactly six weeks and this
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encouraged the Hawaiians and they set to
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learning these skills and they took
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their little boat up to Japan reminding
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the Japanese that they were very much of
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Pacific peoples they took it to
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Vancouver they took it to Chile and now
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they've become incredibly good at it and
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now they're sailing it around the world
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and this little craft is at the time
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we're talking she's just arrived in
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South Africa in Mossel Bay and she'll be
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going round Cape of Good Hope up in
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to the Atlantic Ocean and the aim is
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that by sometime this coming summer she
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will sail up the Potomac and show
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herself and introduce the crew of this
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remarkable venture to their Hawaiian
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president to remind him what Polynesian
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people should do and then they'll scoot
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down the east coast of South America
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through the Magellan straits and up two
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boards Hawaii and home it'll take four
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years to do the whole journey and my
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feeling is that if they get adequate
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publicity and we come to realize this
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extraordinary nature of this achievement
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then we will give to them and the ocean
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on which they're sailing something which
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has been sorely lacking from us
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Westerners and that is our respect and
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that's what I'm hoping for and I think
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that's what they're hoping for
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so Hokulea dot-com is the website that
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you can go to to follow the progress of
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this remarkable little craft salmon we
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Chesser thank you very much and again
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the book is called Pacific thank you
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very much indeed
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you
