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there are certain things that I value
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about myself and about my background or
00:00:04
about my experience that I wouldn't mind
00:00:06
people knowing more about
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[Music]
00:00:09
um but I want to know the best way to
00:00:12
convey that information because I'm not
00:00:15
because especially because I'm not used
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to always having shared that in the
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workplace right and so I often take
00:00:21
leaps of faith and like really being
00:00:23
like all right really leaning into this
00:00:25
research and see if it works and more
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often than not like I do actually find
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that people
00:00:32
um want to learn about me and my
00:00:36
background but are able also able to
00:00:38
take respect like certain boundaries and
00:00:40
not kind of push further than I might be
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comfortable welcome to a special edition
00:00:45
of the ripple effect I'm Dan Loney in
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honor of Juneteenth this month senior
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advisor to the dean for the Coalition of
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equity and opportunity Candace
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Shropshire will be your special guest
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host in each episode this month Ken and
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Wharton faculty are focusing on the
00:00:59
critical themes of diversity equity and
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inclusion we'll be covering a diverse
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range of topics bringing you the latest
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insights and knowledge that you could
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apply to your life and work so get ready
00:01:10
to dive into this special edition of the
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ripple effect with guest host Ken
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Shropshire Ken great to talk to you as
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always thanks for your time Dan great to
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be with you so I guess let's start out
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by talking about where we stand right
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now around diversity Equity inclusion
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and seemingly the growing importance it
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feels like there is around the workplace
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around these issues
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well it's interesting I think we look at
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the lifetime line of the uh it's
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certainly a bigger moment than it's been
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but if you look at the high point just
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post George Floyd things have declined a
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little bit so it's important for us to
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have this conversation especially as it
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relates to the workplace
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well and I know you have a great guest
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lined up to discuss this so I will let
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you take it over with our special guest
00:01:58
Rachel Arnett how are you
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doing well thanks for having me Ken no
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no good good to have you assistant
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professor of management here at the
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warden School
00:02:08
and the work that you've done that we
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really want to zero in on is
00:02:12
how to present yourself in the workplace
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which which is uh for an old school guy
00:02:17
like me a very interesting question I
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mean you usually we used to just go to
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work but now there's this language
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that's really one of zero in on and it's
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it's conversations about bringing you
00:02:29
your genuine or whole self to work
00:02:33
what does that mean and don't trigger me
00:02:35
with your answer
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well first of all
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first of all you're certainly right
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there are generational differences and
00:02:42
this is even something of interest it's
00:02:44
a topic right but I think increasingly
00:02:46
like you said people are asking
00:02:48
questions along these lines
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um
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I would say the whole idea of bringing
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your whole self to work might be a
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bigger chunk that I'm breaking off in my
00:02:57
research because I'm not sure though
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even I'm there yet but what I do try to
00:03:02
tackle my research is if you have
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something valued about yourself some
00:03:07
aspect that particularly your race your
00:03:09
ethnicity your nationality that you'd
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like to bring to work understanding
00:03:12
whether and how you can do that right
00:03:14
because the intuition is that it's risky
00:03:18
it's uh potentially professionally
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um I don't want to say it's
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professionally uh dangerous at times it
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can feel like to to bring
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aspects of your identity that can feel
00:03:30
stigmatized or stereotype in some way
00:03:33
and so my research is really trying to
00:03:35
unpack
00:03:37
as we start to appreciate the value of
00:03:40
different identities in the workplace
00:03:41
how can you bring those identities to
00:03:43
the workplace effectively if at all
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yeah as I was looking looking at your
00:03:48
work and as I've heard you talk about in
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the past
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you know I was trying to think about the
00:03:53
big benefit to them certainly there's
00:03:55
the uh
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uh you know Millennial kind of more
00:03:58
youthful I want to be who I am kind of
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presentation but also it's part of this
00:04:03
whole struggle of how do we make the
00:04:05
workplace in society better that it's
00:04:08
kind of a
00:04:09
you can almost say it's kind of an
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obligation
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to do this and it can can be more
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positive overall for everyone if you do
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so and you talk about it in terms of
00:04:20
this uh
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Rich cultural identity expression
00:04:25
I want you to tell us what what that is
00:04:28
yeah so I think yeah we'll get into the
00:04:31
question of why why should one do this
00:04:34
and who is it for and you know who is it
00:04:36
benefiting I think we'll get into that a
00:04:38
little bit more I think that's a really
00:04:39
important question as part that often
00:04:41
comes out of this research but just to
00:04:44
kind of start with what is the research
00:04:45
even about yes so what I look at is what
00:04:48
I call Rich cultural identity expression
00:04:50
is this idea of bringing attention to
00:04:54
your inner self as it relates to your
00:04:57
race ethnicity or nationality and so
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that often means
00:05:02
in practice talking about thoughts
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feelings or maybe less known experiences
00:05:06
that relate to these important
00:05:08
identities that people have in the
00:05:10
workplace and particularly for people
00:05:11
who are in the minority how can they do
00:05:14
this in a way that feels meaningful to
00:05:16
them and uh at the same time this
00:05:19
synergistic with professional success
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um and so there's lots of different ways
00:05:25
that people can engage in Rich cultural
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expression you know some people do it by
00:05:29
talking about their background some
00:05:31
people talk about important or valued
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Traditions that they currently engage in
00:05:36
some people talk about experiences that
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have been
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challenging or difficult and how they've
00:05:42
navigated that so we can delve into many
00:05:45
different ways to engage in Rich
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cultural expression but the main idea is
00:05:48
that it is delving deeper than just kind
00:05:51
of surface level ways of making a quick
00:05:53
reference to an identity
00:05:56
um for example and it's really helping
00:05:57
people to connect with you on a deeper
00:05:59
level
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yeah and it's not a new issue I mean in
00:06:03
some ways
00:06:04
when I first heard you were talking
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about so I was thinking about in my
00:06:09
youth having a gym coach tell us when I
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was 13 years old right after Dr King was
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killed we were all drawing afros and he
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said I don't understand why you guys are
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doing that I'm Italian and I don't and
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he said something like I don't bring
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spaghetti to work every day and it's
00:06:27
kind of this is Junior High School kind
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of kind of conversation but but he
00:06:32
really did you know it sticks in my head
00:06:34
that there was this pushback against
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being who you are or coming in a certain
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way what what what's the impact of of
00:06:44
doing this of of taking these steps that
00:06:46
you're you're talking about that that I
00:06:49
could have told my junior high a gym
00:06:51
coach
00:06:52
was one of the reasons why we need to
00:06:54
come forward is really uh
00:06:56
yeah you know I think and we can all
00:06:59
have think of experiences like that that
00:07:02
um really deeply impact us and
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unfortunately kind of teach us early on
00:07:07
in life that it's not safe to talk about
00:07:10
these topics sort of be who you are at
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work right
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um
00:07:15
so you know for me personally I think
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about like once being in college being
00:07:21
on an interview at a major uh for a
00:07:25
major consulting company and telling
00:07:26
somebody I'm from the south side of
00:07:28
Chicago and then sort of saying oh isn't
00:07:31
that like really dangerous right uh or
00:07:34
you know like making an assumption that
00:07:36
I'm like about where I'm from and the
00:07:38
parts that are good and the parts that
00:07:40
are bad and I immediately just kind of
00:07:42
froze in the interview setting and
00:07:43
thought you know I can't even I don't
00:07:45
even feel comfortable to elaborate about
00:07:47
my background further in any way with
00:07:49
this person because I can already see
00:07:51
the direction that this is going and so
00:07:54
um
00:07:55
I think
00:07:57
sometimes in those types of situations
00:07:59
maybe it is not safe right you might be
00:08:02
reading the room correctly at least in
00:08:04
those exact moments like you don't
00:08:05
always have the opportunity to say Hey
00:08:08
you know you as my you know teacher or
00:08:12
you as my interviewer I'm gonna stand up
00:08:15
and and make a a put a stake in the
00:08:18
ground
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um and do this but I think
00:08:22
increasingly there are there are
00:08:25
opportunities to connect with people in
00:08:27
a more meaningful way maybe not when you
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feel like you're actively being
00:08:30
stereotyped but when you're getting to
00:08:32
know your colleagues and your co-workers
00:08:34
I think there are opportunities to
00:08:37
um
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discuss
00:08:40
let's say for example like now I I I
00:08:43
will often proactively tell people about
00:08:46
growing up from the south side of
00:08:48
Chicago navigating predominantly black
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and predominantly white neighborhoods
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based on that experience and how that's
00:08:55
really shaped me as a person as a
00:08:58
scholar
00:08:59
and I think that that helps people to
00:09:01
see not just like where I'm from but
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also understand
00:09:07
um why where I'm from is still impacts
00:09:10
my life still impacts who I am and it's
00:09:12
so meaningful to me personally right
00:09:15
um I think there's a lot of ways in
00:09:17
which even today talking about black
00:09:19
hair you know I often think about like
00:09:21
black women in hair but you're making me
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see like I need to talk even about black
00:09:25
men and hair more because to your point
00:09:27
like there's a lot of meaning associated
00:09:30
with wearing your hair and it's like
00:09:32
natural texture and not feeling like you
00:09:35
have to
00:09:37
um assimilate by cutting or
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straightening your hair and so
00:09:41
helping people understand why that's a
00:09:44
point of Pride to be able to wear hair
00:09:46
natural and things like that I think
00:09:48
helps to debunk certain stereotypes like
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it's not that people don't know like
00:09:54
it's not that black people don't know
00:09:55
what professional hair looks like or is
00:09:58
considered to be in American society but
00:10:02
there's value to kind of being able to
00:10:04
reshape those Norms so that you're not
00:10:05
bending over backwards to try to blend
00:10:08
in right so so if we put this in into
00:10:10
practice
00:10:12
the manager that knows you're from the
00:10:14
south side of Chicago or the manager
00:10:16
that that looks at
00:10:18
a unique hairstyle that an
00:10:20
African-American might have
00:10:22
should that manager ask questions about
00:10:25
those things is is it you know is the
00:10:28
reverse okay is it okay to engage in
00:10:30
these conversations
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yeah it's such a good question I'm so
00:10:34
glad you asked that because
00:10:37
um
00:10:37
when I was first presenting This
00:10:39
research like I did how an audience
00:10:40
member said like okay so what I'm taking
00:10:42
away is that I need to be
00:10:45
asking or even maybe telling my
00:10:48
colleagues of color to like talk about
00:10:51
their identities more right
00:10:53
um and I would say that's not
00:10:55
necessarily what I'm actually
00:10:56
recommending I think it's really
00:10:58
important that people
00:11:00
see Rich cultural expression is
00:11:01
something that they're doing for their
00:11:03
own benefit and on their own terms and
00:11:06
so you can create spaces
00:11:09
um that kind of invite people in a way
00:11:12
like to open up what they would like to
00:11:15
or create the opportunity so for example
00:11:18
you know whether that is
00:11:21
um
00:11:22
getting to know you ice breakers or
00:11:25
something like that or whether that's
00:11:27
just creating space the beginning of a
00:11:29
meeting to talk to people informally
00:11:30
before you delve into the work that
00:11:32
you're doing right so even just having
00:11:34
places where people have the opportunity
00:11:35
to connect on a personal level is one
00:11:37
part of that but I also often say that
00:11:39
leaders you know they can set a
00:11:41
precedent of
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um recognizing that rich cultured
00:11:45
expression does actually make people
00:11:47
feel quite vulnerable and setting a
00:11:49
press in themselves by making themselves
00:11:51
vulnerable right sharing aspects of
00:11:53
themselves and maybe
00:11:55
um they wouldn't typically feel
00:11:56
comfortable sharing the workplace that
00:11:58
there's a lot of research that shows
00:12:00
that when one person engages in more
00:12:02
kind of um in-depth disclosure other
00:12:05
people are likely to reciprocate so even
00:12:08
just signaling I'm willing to be
00:12:10
vulnerable can signal to others maybe I
00:12:13
can when I'm ready try to do the same
00:12:16
thing
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um and so part of it is just creating
00:12:19
the space for it and then the other part
00:12:21
is when people do kind of volunteer that
00:12:24
information being willing to show
00:12:27
engagement right so you know saying like
00:12:30
oh that's interesting like if you bring
00:12:32
up the experience with your uh with your
00:12:35
with your was it your gym coach my gym
00:12:38
coach
00:12:41
yeah so if you bring up a bit say again
00:12:44
Mr consolo yes I remember well oh
00:12:47
goodness
00:12:49
so if you if you bring up that
00:12:52
experience you know saying you're like
00:12:54
oh wow that sounds like that must have
00:12:55
been that must have really impacted you
00:12:57
like is that something you want to talk
00:12:59
about more
00:13:00
maybe it is maybe it isn't and so it's
00:13:02
sort of saying realizing that you've
00:13:04
opened the door and they can show
00:13:06
interest but also leave it up to you how
00:13:08
much you want to elaborate and dig into
00:13:09
that
00:13:11
so it sounds like the other side of this
00:13:13
too I'm asking about the the
00:13:16
manager that's not diverse asking that
00:13:19
kind of question but it sounds like too
00:13:21
that that if you are the introvert or
00:13:25
you don't want to take on this business
00:13:28
of educating
00:13:31
the white employer it's not something
00:13:33
you you have have to do but it is
00:13:36
something to contemplate in a way maybe
00:13:39
you've never thought about before that
00:13:40
it could be a positive for the workplace
00:13:42
if you do
00:13:43
yeah you know
00:13:45
you know time
00:13:47
people for many different reasons that
00:13:49
don't feel comfortable with this idea of
00:13:52
opening up about let's say their race in
00:13:54
the workplace right and you know I'm
00:13:57
very extroverted and I still count
00:13:58
myself in that camp of you know
00:14:02
you know there I I can I often feel this
00:14:04
tension like on the one hand I feel like
00:14:06
like I'm not an exhibit right I'm not
00:14:08
something that's like on display if like
00:14:10
the education of others you know I'm a
00:14:13
person and so I feel like I should just
00:14:15
be able to be wherever I want to be and
00:14:17
not have to like think about how to
00:14:20
manage my identity for the sake of
00:14:21
others or their benefit but I do think
00:14:25
that
00:14:26
with time as you as I've started to kind
00:14:29
of leave my own research I've started to
00:14:31
realize there are certain things that I
00:14:33
value about myself and about my
00:14:35
background or about my experience that I
00:14:37
wouldn't mind people knowing more about
00:14:41
um but I want to know the best way to
00:14:44
convey that information because I'm not
00:14:46
because especially because I'm not used
00:14:48
to always having shared that in the
00:14:50
workplace right and so I often take
00:14:53
leaps of faith and like really being
00:14:55
like all right really leaning into this
00:14:57
research and see if it works and more
00:15:00
often than not like I do actually find
00:15:02
that people
00:15:03
um want to learn about me and my
00:15:07
background but I were able also able to
00:15:09
take respect like certain boundaries and
00:15:12
not kind of push further than I might be
00:15:14
comfortable
00:15:15
so Rachel to to close this out
00:15:19
to be a better workplace
00:15:22
and
00:15:24
to have a positive impact beyond the
00:15:28
workplace
00:15:29
this idea of
00:15:32
bringing your genuine self to work
00:15:35
is a good thing
00:15:37
and workplaces should
00:15:40
embrace it and find safe spaces or
00:15:43
establish protocols for this to happen
00:15:48
I would I would say I agree with most of
00:15:50
that I'll just I'll just add caveats and
00:15:52
just say you know I think Rich cultural
00:15:55
dance Russian is one way to be yourself
00:15:58
at work
00:16:00
um to be a genuine self at work and that
00:16:02
can be kind of consistent with both a
00:16:05
desire for authenticity and a desire for
00:16:08
a professional success
00:16:10
um and so I think that's something that
00:16:12
I want people to take away that's an
00:16:14
opportunity and creating safe spaces
00:16:16
that enable that
00:16:18
showing engagement people do it and
00:16:20
really just taking a listening and
00:16:22
learning approach and not a judgmental
00:16:24
approach when people open up I think
00:16:26
those are the key takeaways
00:16:28
and old school guys like me uh we we
00:16:32
should think about
00:16:34
you don't have to just please the
00:16:36
employer and do exactly what you think
00:16:38
the box is that allows you to be
00:16:40
successful that opening up can have can
00:16:42
have a positive positive impact yeah I
00:16:46
know you can take the leap can I believe
00:16:48
in you okay at this point it might be
00:16:51
too late for me I I don't know but any
00:16:54
final final guidance for for us all in
00:16:57
this as we move forward with you know as
00:17:00
as it was as discussed with Dan before
00:17:03
we got going this this idea of companies
00:17:07
do seem to be embracing or contemplating
00:17:09
these issues more anything else that
00:17:12
corporate leaders should take away in
00:17:15
terms of this topic
00:17:17
I would just say that the more you can
00:17:20
sort of set can show people that this is
00:17:24
welcome but also take away some of the
00:17:27
barriers or potential for stigma that
00:17:30
people might be afraid of you know some
00:17:32
of this is Rich culture and expression
00:17:34
is not as bad as you think but there are
00:17:35
things that leaders can do you know when
00:17:37
people open up about kind of problematic
00:17:40
experiences they've had with
00:17:41
discrimination for example actually
00:17:43
showing that you care showing that you
00:17:45
believe people when they open up so that
00:17:47
you're willing to support I think that
00:17:49
goes a long way as well to encouraging
00:17:52
people to open up in these ways on
00:17:54
future occasions
00:17:56
Rachel Arnett thank you very much in for
00:17:59
fulfilling my my need to better
00:18:01
understand Rich cultural identity and to
00:18:03
get over my deeply embedded
00:18:06
fear that was placed upon me by a junior
00:18:09
high school gym coach Horace consolo
00:18:13
take care thanks so much for having me
00:18:17
thank you for listening to the ripple
00:18:18
effect we hope you found this episode
00:18:20
informative and engaging don't forget to
00:18:22
subscribe and leave us a review so that
00:18:25
we can continue to bring you the best
00:18:26
Insight from the Wharton School
