00:00:01
this podcast is brought to you by
00:00:03
knowled of
00:00:04
[Music]
00:00:10
Warton welcome to knowledge at Wharton
00:00:12
I'm angrew basuni today with me is
00:00:14
Wharton management Professor Amy rzeski
00:00:17
she's been taking a look at something
00:00:19
that we can all relate to which is the
00:00:20
meaning of work kind of how we how we
00:00:23
derrive a sense of purpose and identity
00:00:25
from the thing that we chose to do for a
00:00:27
living her latest paper looks at occup
00:00:30
ational instability in other words what
00:00:32
happens to that sense of meaning and
00:00:34
purpose when our careers are threatened
00:00:35
or we can no longer do that thing that
00:00:37
we love so much Amy thanks for being
00:00:39
here thank you so much for having me I
00:00:43
am very interested in your paper and why
00:00:45
you took a specific look at the field of
00:00:47
Journalism which has just really
00:00:49
undergone tremendous changes in the last
00:00:51
15 years or so and I know because I used
00:00:54
to be in it I was a newspaper journalist
00:00:56
online journalist for more than 20 years
00:00:58
so for me your paper feels really
00:01:00
personal uh but I wanted to ask you so
00:01:03
why did you choose to study occupational
00:01:05
instability and explain why uh careers
00:01:08
in journalism provided a context for you
00:01:10
to do so it's a great question I H am
00:01:15
always interested in trying to
00:01:17
understand Dynamics and processes that
00:01:20
shape how people make meaning of their
00:01:22
work and I'm particularly interested in
00:01:25
contexts where it's likely to be
00:01:27
challenging to do that for some reason
00:01:29
so
00:01:30
that could be anything from the person
00:01:32
Works in a stigmatized occupation the
00:01:35
person is working remotely from the
00:01:37
organization and is physically isolated
00:01:39
from their colleagues that was more
00:01:41
novel before the pandemic um and in this
00:01:45
instance of this paper there's a lot
00:01:47
that we know about how people navigate
00:01:50
job loss and questions of meaning around
00:01:53
that but what's different about
00:01:55
occupational destabilization or in the
00:01:58
case of Journalism uh particularly print
00:02:01
journalism um occupational decline that
00:02:06
it presents a really different puzzle
00:02:08
it's not just about finding another role
00:02:10
in another uh organization the number of
00:02:14
roles is shrinking so fast and the
00:02:16
decline is so uh severe that people who
00:02:20
had dedicated their whole professional
00:02:22
lives who had invested their identities
00:02:24
in journalism were increasingly finding
00:02:26
themselves without a perch from which to
00:02:29
do that at work and we felt Winnie and I
00:02:32
my co-author felt like that's a unique
00:02:35
set of challenges for people for whom
00:02:38
the work that they're doing is very
00:02:39
meaningful this would be interesting to
00:02:42
study you had some crushing uh factoids
00:02:46
in your paper that the journalism field
00:02:48
has declined by about 80% One of the
00:02:51
fastest declining uh disciplines for
00:02:53
that require a college degree you really
00:02:55
put that um that decline in context
00:02:59
there so let's talk about how you went
00:03:01
about studying this occupational
00:03:03
instability yes so here my co-author
00:03:07
Winnie Jang who is a faculty member at
00:03:09
inad really gets the credit and I want
00:03:11
to make sure that I give that to her so
00:03:13
she as a doctoral student came to me and
00:03:16
said I'm really interested in this
00:03:19
context of Journalism because it seems
00:03:22
like it's under attack it is not just in
00:03:25
the US but in different parts of the
00:03:27
world too um it's in Decline this is is
00:03:30
likely to yield interesting insights
00:03:32
around how people are navigating uh this
00:03:35
and navigating questions of meaning
00:03:37
which was our mutual research interest
00:03:39
um and so it began simply by reaching
00:03:43
out to some of the people that we knew
00:03:45
who either were working in journalism or
00:03:48
had decided to leave journalism to just
00:03:50
learn more about their experiences and
00:03:52
from there we realized this is just a
00:03:56
context that is full of insight and full
00:03:59
of Frank
00:04:00
pain over what's happening in the
00:04:02
occupation um we really ought to go
00:04:04
ahead and do a much more systematic uh
00:04:08
Approach at drawing people into a sample
00:04:10
to interview them um and develop a
00:04:13
protocol and IRB and sort of all of that
00:04:15
you know uh research study protocols um
00:04:18
and begin collecting data and so we
00:04:20
eventually uh interviewed in sum a total
00:04:24
of 94 journalists um 72 of them we
00:04:28
followed over time to look at the ways
00:04:30
in which they navigated either figuring
00:04:33
out a way to stay in journalism or an
00:04:35
exit entirely uh and looking at what
00:04:38
seemed to be related to those kinds of
00:04:41
outcomes I really want to encourage
00:04:43
people to take an actual look at this
00:04:45
paper because those interviews that you
00:04:48
you and your co-author called are just
00:04:50
so rich uh you have a lot of excerpts in
00:04:52
the paper uh where you talk to them
00:04:54
about their feelings um about leaving
00:04:57
the profession or staying in the
00:04:58
profession um and it just provides so
00:05:00
much fantastic um insight and data into
00:05:03
this thing that you're describing in
00:05:05
your paper which is the fixed meaning
00:05:07
and the flexible meaning can we talk a
00:05:08
little bit about about that concept and
00:05:10
what it means yes and and before I do I
00:05:14
just want to say the data I agree with
00:05:17
you the data are absolutely beautiful
00:05:20
from the point of view of these
00:05:21
transcribed interviews and the coding
00:05:23
that we did of those interviews and it's
00:05:26
not lost on me that these are
00:05:28
journalists these are people who think
00:05:30
and read and write for a living and
00:05:32
write in a way that is compelling to
00:05:35
Broad sads of the public or the specific
00:05:38
audiences that they're targeting and so
00:05:40
it it's perhaps unsurprising but still
00:05:43
very moving how they talk about their
00:05:45
own experiences because I've interviewed
00:05:49
occupational populations across the
00:05:51
gamut of Industries and sectors and so
00:05:53
on in the US um and this these are by
00:05:56
far I think some of the most profound
00:05:58
and profoundly beautiful beautiful and
00:06:00
poignant quotes that I've I've ever had
00:06:02
in a study and so um to the question of
00:06:06
fixed and flexible meanings one of the
00:06:08
things that we found as we started to
00:06:10
delve into these interviews and ask
00:06:13
people simply about their experiences
00:06:15
with journalism how they came to enter
00:06:17
it um if how it had changed over time if
00:06:21
it had for them and how they were
00:06:23
navigating this one of the things we
00:06:25
realized is some of the journalists in
00:06:28
the sample talked about work is being
00:06:30
deeply meaningful to them they talked
00:06:32
about the tasks the relationships and
00:06:35
the kind of impact that journalism has
00:06:37
as elements that were constituting a
00:06:41
whole that these were elements that went
00:06:43
together they were kind of locked
00:06:44
together it's what it meant to be a
00:06:45
journalist and there was no way to take
00:06:48
any of those elements the writing the
00:06:51
public service the advocacy the
00:06:53
community- based work there would be no
00:06:55
way to take any of those pieces out of
00:06:58
the journalistic hole and have it
00:07:00
continue to mean anything in some other
00:07:02
context writing say for uh other kinds
00:07:05
of um entities or Outlets or what have
00:07:08
you um and we called those people the
00:07:10
fixed meaning mindset people um because
00:07:13
they really seem to again not be able to
00:07:17
see any of the portfolio of activities
00:07:19
or skills that journalists have as being
00:07:22
portable to anything other than
00:07:24
journalism and felt like it would become
00:07:27
utterly meaningless to do this same
00:07:29
activity whether that was writing or
00:07:31
what have you in another kind of
00:07:33
occupation or profession and those
00:07:35
contrasted with the people who were also
00:07:37
in the sample who also felt that
00:07:40
journalism was very meaningful to them
00:07:42
also mourned what they saw as the
00:07:44
decline of this occupation but were far
00:07:48
more able to move out of that uh
00:07:51
experience of mourning and out of those
00:07:53
kinds of emotional experiences to say
00:07:56
well but there are many skills that
00:07:58
journalists have have and I could take
00:08:01
this one piece of it that I like and
00:08:04
practice it or execute it over here and
00:08:06
it's a way for me to keep going and to
00:08:08
keep myself employed and though they
00:08:10
never saw that other kind of work from
00:08:13
their words as being nearly as
00:08:15
meaningful as journalism was um it was
00:08:18
at least a way for them to keep
00:08:20
going there's a bit of a survival
00:08:22
element there um can you can you take
00:08:24
those those two concept Concepts fixed
00:08:27
meaning flexible meaning and translate
00:08:29
them for us especially in terms of maybe
00:08:32
other types of professions individuals
00:08:34
who find themselves at a Crossroads in
00:08:36
their career path absolutely I think any
00:08:39
occupation that is beginning to feel the
00:08:42
threat of uh it's often technological
00:08:45
change but it can also come from other
00:08:47
forces as well economic forces um where
00:08:50
the occupation is Contracting declining
00:08:53
or destabilized somehow um any of those
00:08:56
kinds of situations or contexts is is
00:08:59
going to be characterized by the same
00:09:00
thing that we studied which is to say
00:09:02
it's going to challenge can you keep
00:09:04
doing this kind of work with these kinds
00:09:07
of people having this kind of impact in
00:09:10
the same way and if the answer is no
00:09:12
because things have changed in the
00:09:14
environment around that occupation or
00:09:15
around that job then anyone who's in
00:09:18
that situation is going to be dealing
00:09:19
with the same kind of challenges that
00:09:22
the journalists were so any occupation
00:09:25
in which technological change is either
00:09:28
shrinking the occup
00:09:29
or changing the mix of what it is that
00:09:31
people in the organization or in the
00:09:33
occupation do for a living right um one
00:09:36
of the things to make it personal during
00:09:38
covid that I frankly think a lot of
00:09:41
Faculty were thrilled about was nobody
00:09:43
seemed to prefer all online school the
00:09:46
students missed being in the classroom
00:09:47
The Faculty missed being in the
00:09:48
classroom with the students and there
00:09:50
was a sense of what might have been a
00:09:53
more looming technological threat that
00:09:55
all education can happen online we don't
00:09:57
need campuses any longer and so on uh
00:10:00
was quickly revealed to be maybe less of
00:10:02
a threat than we had worried um I'll
00:10:05
expand on this to just say even in
00:10:07
occupations that aren't declining or
00:10:09
destabilizing if you think about an
00:10:11
individual moving through the period of
00:10:13
their over the course of their career
00:10:15
someone could be promoted into a
00:10:17
position that changes the mix of tasks
00:10:20
relationships and impact that they see
00:10:23
comprising the job in ways that they
00:10:25
don't like if they see these things as
00:10:27
fixed and fused and to be the
00:10:29
professional they want to be they don't
00:10:30
want to change or pull out any element
00:10:33
of that then they will struggle also
00:10:36
even with something that could be good
00:10:38
news like a promotion if it is again
00:10:41
threatening this sense of the meaningful
00:10:43
hole of the occupation as they see it
00:10:46
that's definitely true that makes me
00:10:48
actually think of law enforcement where
00:10:50
people who are uh like police officers
00:10:53
working on the street on the beat maybe
00:10:55
don't want to become detectives where
00:10:57
they're behind the desk because it it
00:10:59
creates a different a dissonance for
00:11:00
them um in terms of the reason they got
00:11:02
into the work in the first place or even
00:11:04
teachers you know teachers in the
00:11:05
classroom versus teachers working in
00:11:07
administration um that's yeah that's
00:11:09
super interesting um let me ask you too
00:11:12
about uh you talked a little bit about
00:11:14
um Automation and disruption makes me
00:11:17
think about you know journalism was
00:11:18
threatened not just by the internet and
00:11:21
by automation but it was also threatened
00:11:22
by changes in the
00:11:24
culture changes in consumption the way
00:11:26
that people wanted to consume news and
00:11:29
when I think about that I also think
00:11:30
about other professions like for example
00:11:32
retail in a business context retail is
00:11:35
being challenged by changes in
00:11:37
consumption especially during covid uh
00:11:39
changes in automation changes in
00:11:42
transaction all those sorts of forces
00:11:44
are acting on retail uh so let's talk
00:11:47
about what are the implications for for
00:11:50
managers dealing with occupational
00:11:52
instability maybe employees who who as
00:11:54
we've talked about people who find
00:11:56
themselves in this situation what do
00:11:57
they need to know what what are some of
00:11:59
the things that they can they can sort
00:12:00
of control yes um well I think it can be
00:12:04
quite difficult to control the larger
00:12:08
societal economic technological forces
00:12:11
right those are very hard to keep at Bay
00:12:13
so I think the thing that we need to
00:12:14
focus on is the kind of control that
00:12:16
people can have and maybe managers can
00:12:18
help people have over their response to
00:12:20
this so on the one hand we could see uh
00:12:24
a journalist having a fixed meaning kind
00:12:27
of mindset as being quite heroic right
00:12:30
they're going down with the ship they
00:12:31
are once a journalist always a
00:12:33
journalist um but I have to say you know
00:12:36
these people Inspire great worry in me
00:12:38
because they were often you know taking
00:12:40
jobs where they were being paid kind of
00:12:42
pennies on the dollar of what they had
00:12:44
been able to command in more um stable
00:12:46
times in journalism and so they were yes
00:12:50
kind of holding to their original
00:12:51
occupation but doing it in ways that uh
00:12:54
were I think leading them you know into
00:12:57
what I worried would be peril right
00:12:59
around their ability to survive uh and
00:13:02
to keep doing this work in this way um
00:13:04
so I think probably the most helpful
00:13:06
thing that managers can do and employees
00:13:08
can keep in mind when facing this kind
00:13:10
of instability is making a proactive
00:13:13
decision about either if you want to
00:13:15
stay the course what that's going to
00:13:17
take uh and you know how else you want
00:13:19
to try to support yourself or um keep
00:13:22
yourself stable while you do that but it
00:13:25
seems to me that helping people
00:13:28
understand the need to evolve if the
00:13:31
context is requiring that and then to be
00:13:34
systematic and thoughtful about looking
00:13:36
at what are the tasks and interactions
00:13:40
relationships um kinds of impact that
00:13:42
they're having in the work that they
00:13:44
love most and then to be quite
00:13:46
disciplined about thinking about where
00:13:48
else could that experience be either uh
00:13:52
duplicated or if it can't be duplicated
00:13:54
or repeated elsewhere that at least an
00:13:57
echo of it could be to take some element
00:13:59
of the most meaningful aspects of the
00:14:01
work as a guide to carry into how might
00:14:05
you uh look at uh the kinds of
00:14:07
occupations or roles or even different
00:14:09
positions in the organization that you
00:14:11
could possibly take so Amy I know that
00:14:13
you've been studying work meaning and
00:14:15
identity for the span of your career so
00:14:18
here's where I'm going to sort of Plum
00:14:20
some of that Knowledge from you and ask
00:14:22
you what expert advice do you have for
00:14:24
us in terms of work identity and
00:14:26
occupational instability and all those
00:14:28
things that you've pulled from your body
00:14:30
of
00:14:30
research um if I if I looked across the
00:14:34
span of time that I've been studying
00:14:36
these questions I think my advice comes
00:14:39
down to two points uh ultimately the
00:14:42
first would be it very much seems to be
00:14:45
the case that people who choose or move
00:14:49
into or happen to find themselves in
00:14:52
work in which the work is about more
00:14:55
than just an economic exchange with the
00:14:57
organization or with the employer that
00:15:00
those people seem to be better off in
00:15:03
both the short and longer term if the
00:15:05
work can be attached or connected for
00:15:08
the worker regardless of what kind of
00:15:09
work it is to something that they see as
00:15:12
being worthwhile to them and to the
00:15:14
world in some way that seems to make an
00:15:17
enormous difference in people's
00:15:19
experience of their work and people's
00:15:21
satisfaction with their lives so that
00:15:23
would be the first piece of advice is uh
00:15:26
you know if possible find or maneuver
00:15:29
your way um between organizations it
00:15:32
could be within the same organization
00:15:34
into something where the meat of what
00:15:36
you're doing is something that you feel
00:15:38
matters beyond the fact that it's also
00:15:40
throwing off a paycheck um if you can't
00:15:43
do that if that's not feasible for some
00:15:46
reason uh and moving on or moving along
00:15:49
is just not
00:15:50
possible um I would suggest in that case
00:15:53
my second point which is to think about
00:15:55
how can you act upon the boundaries of
00:15:58
that job job essentially craft the job
00:16:00
that you're in to change some things
00:16:02
about the tasks that you're doing change
00:16:04
some things about the interactions and
00:16:06
relationships you're engaging in change
00:16:08
some things about how it is you're
00:16:09
thinking about and approaching the job
00:16:11
or the role as a whole that will help
00:16:14
you derive the kinds of meaning that you
00:16:16
most want to experience in the work
00:16:18
sometimes people do this uh in secret
00:16:21
they don't let their managers know that
00:16:23
they're making these tweaks to their job
00:16:24
designs um and they seem to be quite
00:16:27
powerful for for helping people have a
00:16:29
sense of agency in their work but also
00:16:31
physically in reality changing parts of
00:16:34
how they're enacting the job in ways
00:16:36
that allow them to derive the kind of
00:16:38
meaning they most seek I think that's
00:16:40
great advice and something we all need
00:16:42
to hear right now in these difficult
00:16:44
times so thank you for that and thank
00:16:46
you for being here um the paper once
00:16:49
again is titled perceived fixed or
00:16:52
flexible meaning toward a model of
00:16:53
meaning fixedness and navigating
00:16:55
occupational destabilization and of
00:16:57
course we want to mention once again
00:16:59
your co-author witty Jen with
00:17:02
nced uh also the paper appears if you
00:17:04
want to look it up in the journal
00:17:05
administrative science quarterly if you
00:17:08
enjoyed this conversation we invite you
00:17:09
to check out all our content just type
00:17:12
in knowledge at Wharton in your search
00:17:14
bar I'm Andie bass thanks for being with
00:17:16
us for more insight from knowledge at
00:17:18
Wharton please visit knowledge. won.
00:17:22
up.edu
00:17:25
[Music]
