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I'm Adam Grant I'm here with Mitch album brilliant journalist and author you may
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know him from Tuesdays With myy The Five People You Meet in Heaven and today new
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book The Magic strings of Frankie Presto welcome hi Adam so what inspired you to
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write the latest book well ever since I wrote Tuesdays with myy uh I've had people who have said to me that book
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changed my life you actually said it to me not too long ago and I have to say the first hundred times that that
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happened I probably internally rolled my eyes and said well that's nice but I
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mean a book doesn't change your life it's a book having heard it so many
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times at this point I started to think well you know actually people's gifts do
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change other people's lives and uh I I got intrigued about maybe writing a story about how that would happen and
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I'd always been a musician um I buried it after I became a writer but my real
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dream was to be a musician and I had you know I worked at it when I was younger so I came up with this story about a
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fictional guitar player named Frankie Presto who's the greatest guitar player
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to ever walked the Earth the the music gods have just chosen him to be their their vessel and uh he suffers as a
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child he's an orphan and he goes through a you know a lot of Abandonment and as a
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result he's sort of rewarded with this magic guitar when he's 9 years old that
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has six strings that are able to change people's lives and over the course of
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his life which traverses through the whole 20th century of Music the real 20th Century Music Duke Ellington and
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Elvis Presley and Woodstock and all the rest he he gets these opportunities to play so brilliantly that he actually
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changes somebody's life and when he does the string turns blue and then it dissipates and disappears and then he
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has five left and four left and three left and two left and it follows the story of that but the metaphor and the
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kind of Point behind it is that everybody gets a blue string in life you know they have a gift and if they share
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that gift with somebody they can actually change somebody else's life you became a professor uh and now you teach
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and I'm sure some students along the line have said you know what I want to do what he does or he made this so clear
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to me that I want to now pursue that so now you have as a professor change somebody's life with your particular
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gift of teaching I've written books and people say oh that's changed my my life
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uh um a Pianist could give a performance and someone in the audience could say my
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God that music I want to make that music myself and now they want to become a Pianist so all of us have this ability
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to sort of um play a blue string and I just thought that that was an interesting uh theme to write a book
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about I think it's fascinating and it makes me wonder how do you think about
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discovering what that gift is well uh that's a very good question because I think a lot of people have gifts that
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they deny and U they want to be something other than what their gift is or they see that their gift is not
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satisfying enough that that well yeah you know so what that I'm good at music
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but you know I want to be a a baseball player you know or so what that I'm good
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at sports but I really want to be this or or this gift doesn't make me enough
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money or this gift doesn't get me famous but I think that if people recognize that everybody
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has a talent of some kind and in this book which is actually told by the spirit of music it's uh and I did it on
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purpose so the narrator is music it's music itself and he comes at the beginning of the
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book to take the talent out of Frankie Presto's body because he just died and
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he's going to take the talent out and he's going to distribute it over other
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souls and music explains that here's how talents work when you come out of the
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womb before you ever even open your eyes you're an infant there's all these
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colors that you can actually see bright brilliant colors and when you clench your fists for the first time you're
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actually grabbing the colors that appeal to you and taking them and those become your
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talents so why does one kid grow up to have a great aptitude for Math and another kid grows up as a great dancer
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and another kid just is naturally Musical and we always say where did that Talent come from well in the book The
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Talent comes from because that's what you grabbed if you recognize that the talent that you grabbed you grabbed for
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a reason this is my conceit you know way early on it attracted you for someon it
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was a good fit for you and you allow yourself to sort of explore your talent and and develop your
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talent not be jealous of other people's talent but just say this is what I do
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well let me do it well you will be at peace with your talent and you'll be effective with it so talk to us about
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this in your own life um we have millions of readers who are grateful that you walked away from music but what
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what was that decision process like and why did you come back to it well that's
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a perfect example I mean uh well first of all before I before I ever became a musician you know I was one of those
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kids that did well in school I I got good grades and so naturally your parents say well you should you should
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be a doctor you should be a lawyer you know and many kids at the same uh level with me went on and did that and many of
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them have proven to be quite unhappy because that's not really where their talent lied that's not really where
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their gifts were but that's what Society told them to do or somebody else told
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them to do I was blessed that despite the fact that my parents wanted me to go do those things I said no music I feel
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music I want to I want to do music uh and so I pursued music music didn't really work out for me uh I volunteered
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for a local newspaper uh writing stories and uh and I found that very the very first day I wrote a story I'd never
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written anything before I had no training uh but I must have had some kind of aptitude for storytelling
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because I wrote a a newspaper story about parking meters that was my first assignment for a local rag that they
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gave out in the supermarket obviously yeah yeah why not to why not parking meters and um they put it on the bottom
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of of the front page when it came out the next week and I went to the supermarket I picked it up and I saw my
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name and I saw the print after it and something clicked in in me and so there's like almost a sh I still get a
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little Goosebump when I tell the story that okay this is where I'm supposed to be
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you know it's creative like music um but I can use words and my my brain is kind
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of coming into it and I I settled into it and I found out this is my aptitude now do I still love music of course I do
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did I just write a book about music yes I did but did have to recognize that well I may have wanted that but I've got
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a I've got an ability here and if I cultivate this it can be just as satisfying maybe more so than the music
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career and I lucked out I was able to stumble upon mine but I think everybody sort of has that if they can do that
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search your career trajectory since then has been so interesting right an award-winning Sports journalist then
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writing Memoirs then turning to fiction um so you're at least try trilingual as
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an author and I when I think about leadership I think that actually a lot of leaders are fiction authors in the
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sense that they have to create a vision that doesn't yet exist they have to craft a narrative or or tell a story
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that hasn't been told before um as as a gifted Storyteller what advice can you
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offer to leaders about how to create better more compelling narratives well you know there's a joke
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that uh you know prostitution is the oldest profession in the world I actually think the one that came before
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it was storytelling uh the reason that I never fear about you know they say well
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you know journalism is dead or print journalism is dead or this is that is that the world has always told stories
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and it will always have to tell stories and so the first thing that I would I would say to leaders of any kind is
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everyone can relate to a story and if you learn how to tell a story whether that be your vision for a company or um
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just a way to be empathetic towards your customers or a way to just understand the world if you put it in a
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storytelling form as opposed to a a dactic factual PowerPoint presentation everyone will be able to relate to it I
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have an orphanage that I run down in Haiti and the uh I go every month and the kids natural language is not
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English first they speak Creole and then they speak French and then we teach them
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English and so they're slowly getting into it when I stand in the middle of the group of kids and I try to relate
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some kind of thing or what story uh you can see that they're looking at me but
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they don't necessarily understand what I'm saying there are various ages and
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they're English but when I start to move my hands and my inflection reflects
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happy and then angry and then sad or whatever um they come alive and if I'm telling a story with that that kind of
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stuff even if they don't get the words you can tell that they're intrigued by
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whatever story I'm telling because it's got all the elements of story a narrative emotion a give and a take
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conflict and all the rest of it so sometimes leaders should remember that you know it may be important to you
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and you think well if I just spit the facts out people but but one of the best ways to relate to somebody is not to uh
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lecture them but to tell them a story and so I always found that if I was trying to make a point about something
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rather than saying um you know uh here's the simplest thing in sports the baseball player hits
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333 that's a fact right baseball player hits 333 or one out of every three times that he
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comes to the plate something good happens now which tells you more about which intrigues you more about the
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baseball player right it's the same fact but if you tell it in a little bit of a
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narrative now you've engaged somebody that way and you know I think leader should probably keep that in mind how do
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we know when a story is worth telling or when we're on to a compelling narrative
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some of it is if it's passionate to you then it will be someone else uh there is
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no empirical litmus test I don't think about whether a story is interesting or
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not I've heard people you know tell stories about the invention of a chemical compound and and hold people's
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attention and I've heard other people tell a war story and put people to sleep
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so it it's it has a lot to do I think with the passion of the Storyteller what
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is your creative process look like well I'm I I'm pretty predictable and I I
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know sometimes there's this notion that uh writers you know they just get hit with
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lightning in the middle of the night and they get up and they start scribbling and and and you know next thing you know
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they got a novel but I I have to say that that's not really the case in my experience with with me or with most
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writers that I know who who make a living at this uh I get up every morning about the same time I follow a very
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similar pattern I I get up brush my teeth say a prayer grab a cup of coffee and go downstairs and start writing I
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don't read anything else I don't look at anything else I don't listen to anything
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else I don't turn on a television I have no input I want my brain to be a blank
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slate as close as it can be and then I begin to fill up that slate with the words and the creativity I work for
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maybe from about a quarter to 7 in the morning till maybe 9:30 uh you know quarter to quarter to 10 and I'm done
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and I've recognize that I could sit at the computer for 10 more hours I'm not
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going to get anything better so I know when to stop I'm out of gas and then I
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come back the next day but I do it every day uh except when I'm out on book tour
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like this and it's almost impossible but I do it every day I do it seven days a
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week and I I try never to quit when things are going badly and this I think is a good lesson for no matter what Walk
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of Life you're in because no matter what there's always going to be an end of the
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day for you whatever that end of the day is going to be minus this sort of run out of gas point but if you stop when
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you're in the middle of something that's not going well and you say h I'll come
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back tomorrow these sentences just aren't working I I'll go out when I'm
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fresh tomorrow when you get up the next day you are not in excited about going back down to that computer because
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you're like uh that problem is down there waiting for me on the other hand if you quit in the middle of a sentence
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that's just great you say stop then you can't wait to get back to it the next
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morning and uh you know I think that's probably a good philosophy all across
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the board do you find as you're writing if I heard you correctly you write less
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than three hours a day typically that's remarkable as as a writer well uh you
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know they say the average American uh in an 8 hour day only actually does between
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two and two and a half hours of real work and the rest is emailing and phone calls and coffee breaks and daydreaming
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and so uh if you applied that principle to my writing hours it's concentrated
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writing it's not I I don't Veer off um um but I think you know creativity is
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funny that way you know you I it's a little bit like a Play-Doh I mean you can mold it uh into different shapes or
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different hours of your day but you only still have as much Play-Doh as you have
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you know and it's you could stretch it out and you can sit at a typewriter like
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I said for 10 hours and you'll get you'll get the same amount of Play-Doh
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stretched out or you could compress it and do it into an a I have to say mo it's not surprising pattern for most
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writers it may be to you but uh to most of the novelists I know first of all they all treat it like a job you know
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get up go someplace a lot of people have separate offices from their home because
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they don't want to mix the environments you know and they want to I know some
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writers that actually go to an office building and sit with other writers one at a desk and one at a and they all work
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on their own novels together these are these are not fiction writers but they want it to feel like a job which ironic
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because a lot of people who have those kind of jobs dream about like oh if I could just be a novelist and I could sit
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at home and smoke my pipe and write my thing and look at the ocean but a lot of people who have that option choose to
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come into an office um I uh I have a a separate office downstairs below everything so that there's no traffic
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and no you know normal life otherwise I might do the same thing I've also found
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that if the view is too nice you don't focus on your work so uh I you know I'm
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blessed to live in an in area that has a a nice uh woods and everything that I could look at and I'm always I always
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position everything away from it so I'm not distracted how do the stories you
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tell shape your own identity um as you as you write a book or a column that you spend a lot of time on does it change
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the way that you think about who you are no uh what changes is the reception to it uh for example um Tuesdays with myy I
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wrote to pay Mor's medical expenses it wasn't supposed to be a big book it it
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wasn't supposed to be a philosophical book nobody even wanted to publish it I
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mean I got turned down 90% of the places I went they said you're a sports writer it's depressing
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nobody wants to read anything like that Etc but I pushed forward because I wanted to pay his medical bills before
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he died and that's what we did now for me what changed for me was when I was
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visiting with Mory and and the transformation that I went through and the lessons that I learned and then I
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put that down on the page page but what changed as a result of the book wasn't my writing of the story
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because it had already happened to me it was the reception to the book uh Amy Tan
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who's you know who wrote The Joy Luck Club and is a friend of mine I had sent
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her the manuscript for Tuesdays with myy because she was like one of the only people I knew who maybe delved in that
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area a little bit most people I knew were Sports writers I said what do you think do I have anything here I I've
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never written a book like this and she said well she read it and she said I'm
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going to tell you two things number one this is a wonderful book and it's going
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to be really big which I didn't believe at the time and she said number two you're about to become everybody's Rabbi
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and uh I had no idea what that meant but I sure do now because everyone who has ever dealt with a terminal illness ALS
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whatever who comes through my path wants to talk to me wants to hear what I have
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to say wants to share a story with me or whatever and so which is fine I mean that's that's it's been a blessing but
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it does change you you know uh the conversations you have and the way that people look at you uh and and what they
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look for from you has changed uh and has changed with every book really what was
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the biggest impact that Tuesdays with myy had on you um if you think about and there's so many inspiring lessons in
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that book what was the one that has really stuck with you the most personally or professionally let's one
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of each well personally um I think the way that myy would say you know don't buy the culture if you don't
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like it and I saw that he was able to be sort of countercultural himself now he wasn't a radical just certain things
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that he didn't care for he didn't buy into and he died quite contentedly Al
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albe it with the worst disease you could ever imagine and I saw that I said okay that's always stuck with me and and
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there's a lot of things that I just don't get into in American life that
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everybody gets into like reality TV for me is it's not I don't even have an
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opinion on it because it's non-existent for me I don't allow it to become part
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of my life I don't know any of these people I know who the Kardashians are because you can't live in this country
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and not know who they are but I don't know which one's which and and and it's
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fine I I push a lot of that stuff to side and other parts of the culture I embrace and I learned that from myy and
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I think that's why I've been able to do as much as I've been able to do is just
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I I don't feel obligated to play on every field just the ones that interest me and I think I can make it a
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difference in um professionally you know Tuesdays with Mory uh uh took me off of a path of um
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pure sports writer ambition and plopped me into a whole different world the best
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way that I can think of this is uh when I was a sports writer solely um people would stop Me Maybe in
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airports if they recognize me from the Sports reporters or something like that and they'd say uh hey who's going to win
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the Super Bowl and I learned from Chuck Daly the coach of the Pistons he would always say answer them but never stop
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moving your feet you know keep moving your feet and so I would move my feet I'd say the Patriots you know and I just
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keep walking and then after Tuesday Mori came out people would stop me in the airport and they'd say you know my
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mother just died from ALS and I wonder can I talk to you about it for second well you can't go Patriots you know uh
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and so you have to stop and um you have to engage and consequently I have heard so many
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stories that I have I think what it did for me Adam is it developed a sensitivity to the suffering in the
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world and the pain in the world that I did not have before that and I remember a few years after Tuesdays with Mor
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going to football games and beginning to look at the crowds that I would be sitting amongst and you know you I
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always work amongst 60 70 80,000 people you know I mean that's a common office
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for me and I would look at the crowd and I'd say at least half of those people
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who are jumping up and down and screaming have lost somebody in their life in the last six months and have a
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sad story to tell you know and I started to realize how many people are just walking around with these stories and
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then all of a sudden I hear them because I'm the guy that they can tell them to
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so it's made me sensitive to that and recognize that you can't just judge
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somebody by whatever expression they happen to have on their face or they're
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yelling or they're laughing everybody walks around with some heartbreak in their in their soul and some more than
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others on the Lighter Side uh one of the things we see a lot of Business Leaders
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doing is trying to emulate great Sports coaches yeah what you've been observing
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sports for decades what the the biggest lessons that you've learned from the
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greatest of great coaches well you know I'm not sure I buy into that whole business equal Sports
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thing I just think it's easy and um I think a lot of coaches are are are admired by um leaders of business and
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it's turned into a cottage industry for coaches to sort of create these um winning philosophy books uh and uh and
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and if you just follow my 10 rules for Success you but you know one of the rules for success for many of these guys
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is make sure you get a number one draft pick you know uh or make sure you recruit the best athlete to come to your
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college and it's not so easy you know some of that is luck of the draw some of
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that is is uh is where you're geographically located I'm not sure coaches have the secret to how to run a
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successful business I just think they're easy targets because you know you can see their
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success on the field the best coaches that I've seen are the ones that understand that you have to
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simultaneously be coaching a team and an individual at the same time again Chuck
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Dy comes to mind used to say you know and and Bo schembecker told me this too I treat them all fairly but I don't
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treat them all alike and uh you know they understood that this guy may require a little bit of extra and this
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guy just a tap in a back and he's good to go and this guy and some people want
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to cookie cutter everybody some people want to make sure when they run their companies that everybody follows exactly
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the same rules and they send out emails and they say this is our policy and this
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is but everybody's going to ingest that differently and you can't make a person
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into a a a robot Soldier uh you may think that by everybody standing lock step and everybody moving at the exact
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same time you've got an efficient operation but what you're missing is the
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efficiency that could come from cultivating everybody's particular Talent while still moving towards a
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greater good now I think a lot of the younger companies quote unquote the newer companies they might almost take
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it the opposite direction it's like you do your laundry here eat your food here
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you know you be part of our thing and be whoever you are wear whatever you want and and I I think sometimes that can go
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too far the other way and and and all people really are doing is sort of using your company as a springboard for their
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own personal you know startup uh but somewhere in between the two is the right balance and that's what good
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sports coaches do you know you find that the players all buy into the program but
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they don't all get told the exact same thing yeah we started this conversation
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with you being surprised that Tuesdays with myy had a life-changing impact on some people and I have to imagine that
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there are some books you've read that have had that kind of effect on you if
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you were going to point to one or two what would they be well the Bible ranks up there uh you know and I only say that
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half kiddingly in that I think there are uh there are Psalms that when I found you know I had a stretch of time in my
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life where I was going through a lot of trouble and issues and um you know I'd
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never been a person who really thought much about reading the Bible for any kind of comfort I had a very very
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extensive religious education when I was a kid I went to a religious uh day school and high school for much of my
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life so I knew a lot about it but I put it all aside when I got out but there are some beautiful Psalms written by
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David that I find that actually Encompass all of sort of the human misery and the desire to you know like
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help me help me you know come to my Aid and and those things you know if you talk about a the printed word having an
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effect I have to first say that of anything that I've ever read when I you read that you you realize this was
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written by somebody thousands of years ago and it's exactly what you're feeling
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in terms of like come to my Aid and help me it's it's like wow so people felt
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this way even then and and you know I know other people the minute they hear religion they go well I don't want to
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have anything to do with this but read the Psalms the Psalms are a little bit different than you know uh uh uh the
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golden calf or or Noah's Arc U and then as far as books that um you know are are
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are secular most of them have inspired me um from a writer's point of view you
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you know like what you can create if you're really good and there uh uh I look at A Book Like A River Runs Through
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It written by Norman mlan when he was in his 60s you know not even published until he was almost 70 and then you know
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he didn't even live to see the movie made out of it and it is poetry about his own life and uh you read those
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sentences and you know even the end of the book I'm paraphrasing but said you
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know in in the end all things come together and uh you know and and and and become one and a river runs through it
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I'm haunted by waters you know and you can read that a thousand times over and
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still say what beauty I want to create something that beautiful and um I think that that's how books like that have
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inspired me what would you say as you reflect on your career to date is something you believed early on about
00:25:51
what it took to be successful or to to have some influence that you've decided
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is no longer true uh that ambition was equal to it was a direct equation to success that the more
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you pushed the more you wanted the more you got I have come to observe that although this defies physics there
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are times when if you take your foot off the gas you go faster I don't know how
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it works I could not explain it through the laws of physics I just have observed
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that it does I used to think was the only way to go and uh I I I I find that that's not
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true and you've actually spent a good chunk of your career working in organizations uh you have a a chance as
00:26:42
a journalist and as a writer uh to hold up a mirror a little bit and think about
00:26:46
how does this organization really run how should it work differently what are the mistakes that you see people making
00:26:51
when they think about how to organize the way that people work together uh well you're right I I have especially in
00:26:57
the last number of years as I formed Charities because here writing is a fairly solitary existence it's so your
00:27:04
organization is an organization of one uh but as I have uh gotten more and more into charity work I I operate in
00:27:12
orphanage in Haiti that I'm at every month I have a about about 20 some odd people working I like to say with me not
00:27:21
for me uh in Detroit on all my assorted charity things and other Ventures I think the mistakes that I've made and so
00:27:28
therefore I see other people uh make is that uh when you are the driving force of a
00:27:35
company um the element of not wanting to disappoint you becomes part of everybody's work day
00:27:46
and the way that you talk to people or the way that you might even praise somebody else has a direct effect on the
00:27:55
performance of the other people and you want to say well I wasn't talking to you
00:28:00
you know or why should that bother you or uh you know and and what you need to understand is if you are in a company
00:28:08
where you are kind of the magnet that Drew the people there or that they look to you for leadership at the top you
00:28:16
have got to consider the way that they are processing the information that you're
00:28:22
putting out even if it's to somebody else if you ignore it and you just say look this is I'm I'm the boss and I said
00:28:28
say this to this and I say this to this and that's all that should matter you're
00:28:31
going to have trouble and you're going to go what's wrong why why isn't that
00:28:34
person doing what I thought they should do why are they reacting that and ultimately when you get down to it you
00:28:39
find out that they were jealous of your praise of somebody else or or uh Angry that you didn't notice something that
00:28:48
they did or uh overly content because you praised them and they thought well I'm home free so the way that you come
00:28:56
across to people within your own organiz ation is not as simple as just saying I've called you all together here and
00:29:01
I'm going to say this has everybody got it yeah yeah yeah you need to sit with
00:29:05
each person and say okay no one else is here because group think is one thing and individual think is another and it's
00:29:12
I see it when I go out and talk to groups you know you say Okay are there any questions you know everybody looks
00:29:18
around no questions one person raises their hand everybody's hand goes up why
00:29:23
if you had a question you had a question obviously there's a dynamic right same thing in running an organization
00:29:30
and you have to recognize therefore that what you would get oneon-one if you took
00:29:35
the time with your employees one-onone is not what you're going to get when you
00:29:38
call them all together and if you really want to understand what's going on in
00:29:41
your place you better sit down oneon-one periodically with those people terrific
00:29:45
well Mitch thank you for sitting down one-on-one here my pleasure thanks Adam [Music]