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We know the value but also the impact
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that cell phones have on our kids. And
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this past year saw numerous school
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districts announcing new rules about
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preventing the use of cell phones by
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kids, by students during the school day.
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With those in place, what does that mean
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for how the dynamics of the school day
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are going for students? That research is
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being conducted by our guest today,
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Angela Duckworth, along with a group of
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her colleagues. It is a phones in focus
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study. Angela is professor of
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operations, information, and decisions
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here at the Wharton School, as well as
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co-director of the Behavior Change for
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Good Initiative. Angela, great to catch
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up again. How are you? Hi, good to see
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you. I'm very happy to have this
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conversation.
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Yeah, so this is the second conversation
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we're having on this topic as this
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research continues to develop. Let me
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circle back for people that didn't join
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us the first time and talk about what
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was the basis behind doing the research
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into this in the first place.
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I'm a psychologist who's been studying
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self-control and grit and achievement
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for her entire career. I'm also a former
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high school and middle school math
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teacher. And finally, I'm a mom. I have
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two daughters who are now in their early
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20s. And for all of those reasons, I
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felt called really to do a study on cell
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phones and in particular cell phones and
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young people in schools. My own daughter
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said, "Mom, you know, this is what you
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trained for. Like your whole life you
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learned to become a social scientist to
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help kids. So you have [snorts] to study
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what's going on with kids and phones
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and in particular academic and academic
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achievement, I should say. When we talk
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about schools, it's not just academic
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achievement. It's also social social
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development. You know, what effect
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having phones with you all the time has
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on your ability to develop friendships
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or you know, relationships with mentors
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like teachers.
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Okay, so with these school districts
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that are obviously changing these rules
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and trying to make sure that students
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aren't relying on their cell phones
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during the school day, what are we
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starting to see in terms of how that
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daily relationship is working not only
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with their classmates, but I think with
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the teachers as well.
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We have a survey. It's still live. And
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so if you're listening to this
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conversation and you know or you are a
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school teacher in a US public K-12
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school, you're welcome to take the
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5-minute survey at phonesinfocus.org.
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Here's what we're learning. We have over
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100,000 teachers. That's a significant
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percentage of teachers in the United
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States who have done exactly that. And
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what we're finding first of all is a sea
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change in policy from last year to this
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year. So even just in the few months
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that have passed since last academic
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year to this academic year, what we're
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finding is that schools across this
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country are getting more strict with
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their cell phones. They're more likely,
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for example, to have a bell-to-bell
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policy, meaning that students at that
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school are not allowed to use their
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phone from the first bell to the last
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bell. And we're seeing most of that
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change happen in, for example, the
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middle and high schools because
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elementary schools typically have
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stricter policies, so they were already
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strict. But we're seeing American high
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schools, for example, shift to this new
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stricter policy. Second thing that we're
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finding is that the stricter the policy,
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the happier the teacher. So these
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teachers, 100,000 teachers, are saying
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overwhelmingly that they prefer to teach
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in school. They're They're more
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satisfied teaching in schools that have
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stricter policies. And finally, when we
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ask these teachers, "What percentage of
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kids, from 0% to 100%, would you guess
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are on their phones for non-academic
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reasons during class?" And we we find
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that the same pattern is that, you know,
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in the stricter schools, you know, kids
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are of course less likely to be on their
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phones. And here's one thing I want to
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emphasize. It's not just when kids are
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allowed to be on their phones, it's
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where schools let those students keep
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their phones. You can be a bell-to-bell
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school and say, "You know what? In our
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school you can't use your phone all day,
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but you can keep it anywhere you want."
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And we're finding that that matters.
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When kids have their phone in their hand
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or in their back pocket or even in their
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backpack, they're more tempted, it
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seems, to look at their phones than if
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it's in their hallway locker, it's in a,
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you know, centralized place,
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etc.
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Well, and one of the other things that
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you noted in the most recent
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tranche of research is that not only do
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you have to focus on the potential use
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of cell phones, but it's also the
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laptops as well because seemingly so
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many students are doing the majority of
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their work for school on their laptop. I
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know my kids are. Right.
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>> And who doesn't?
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Right, exactly. And obviously there has
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to be a temptation there while you're
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doing your work on the laptop like,
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well, I can slide my social media onto a
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different screen and have both at the
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same time. Right. One tab for, you know,
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doing my calculus and another tab for
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like looking up love story. And you
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know,
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you know, you know, it's it's um the
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co-location of academic work and
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temptation on the same exact device, you
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know, literally within pixels of each
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other, within a swipe of each other,
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within a click of each other. You know,
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the analogy I would give you is it's
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like asking kids salad in the middle of
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a bakery, right? You can do it. But you
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know, there are a lot of other things
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that you would prefer. And I feel the
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same way about myself. I mean, with no
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disrespect to my colleagues because as
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you know, I love this university with
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all my heart and soul. But I have to go
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to boring meetings, right? Who doesn't?
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And if I have my laptop, the temptation
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to stop taking notes on the meeting and
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to just go peek at my inbox, right?
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You know, look up that thing that I was
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looking up 5 minutes before the meeting.
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It is so strong. And therefore, we are
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finding in our data,
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you know, the same pattern with kids. I
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mean, I don't know if it's therefore,
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but I'll just say that we added a
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question this school year. I told you
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that the survey started last year. We're
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um extending it. We added a question,
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which is what percentage of students do
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you suspect are doing personal things
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like texting or social media from their
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laptop in class? And a striking one in
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three students, according to American
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school teachers, are currently using
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their laptops for non-academic purposes
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during the school day. And as a
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professor, again, I love my students.
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Literally love them.
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But if I [clears throat]
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their laptops in my class, I think the
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percentage would be similar, you know,
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if not higher. Yeah.
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Um you talked a moment ago about the
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component of mental health that
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seemingly becomes very important. And I
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think it's a discussion where a lot of
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people are having it, but maybe it
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hasn't been fully followed through as to
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just how these devices are impacting the
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mental health, especially of our
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children whose, in many cases, when
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you're in middle school or high school,
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your brain and your body are still
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developing at that point.
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You know, this generation, so, you know,
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we all went through childhood and
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adolescence. And you know, many of us
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will remember that that was not the
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easiest period of our lives. We were
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developing a sense of of self-concept,
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self-esteem, what's my niche, what's my
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role, what's my status, am I liked, do I
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belong here?
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friends. So we've all been through that
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period. And we might recall that it was
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a fraught period. I mean, it's not at
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all easy.
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And one of the things that really
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worries me as a psychologist who has
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worked with adolescents for
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her career is that now we have this
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device that enables you to not look at
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another person in the eye, to not have
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conversation, to not get to know
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someone. I mean, who enjoys those
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awkward first opening conversations with
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another human? Maybe complete
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extroverts. But for a lot of us, there
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is a little awkwardness. And what
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research is showing, you know, separate
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from the study that I just described, is
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that face-to-face in-person interaction,
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particularly among young people, is on a
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steep decline. I think that is very
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relevant
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to another worrisome trend, which is we
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are really seeing a crisis in mental
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health in young people. I'll speak about
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Gen Z adults because that's the most
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documented.
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As you know,
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are, you know, really in the same
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generation. I mean, this is in some ways
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the least happy generation that we have
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documented in human history. And if you
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ask the question, "Why?" Like what would
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There are, I'm sure, multiple reasons.
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Political polarization doesn't help.
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There's climate change and so forth. But
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I have to believe that the astronomic
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increase in the use of phones and social
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media have at least contributed to a
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crisis of well-being in our young
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people.
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How then does it also, and we're talking
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about this in the scope of the students
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and the teachers, but to a degree, and
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you kind of alluded to it that this is a
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much larger conversation outside of the
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schools,
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do the parents need to have and play an
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important role in this process as well?
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You know, there is hope. And I know, you
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know, painting this picture of
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technology and its, you know, inevitable
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march forward, right? The co-location of
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temptation and virtue in the same
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device. I mean, it does make you want to
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like throw up your hands and say like,
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well, I'm helpless to to change things.
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But I do think there's hope. And the
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reason why is that we are influenced by
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our surroundings. And we are most
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influenced by our immediate
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surroundings. So yes, there are macro
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cultural trends that you're not going to
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have a lot of control over. But you do
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have control over your local
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environment. So think locally. For
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example, if you are a parent, you can
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choose which school to send your child
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to because that school will have a
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culture. And that school's culture is
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going to influence your child's
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development much more than American
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culture at large. Same thing for the
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home. When we raised our two daughters,
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my husband Jason and I would often get,
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as so many parents do, "Well, my
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friend's family does it this way. They
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watch TV all day. Like, they have junk
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food. Like, why can't we have Oreos?"
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And we said to our daughters, "Because
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you're a Duckworth, and in the Duckworth
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family, we do things the Duckworth
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family way." So, I think every leader
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understands this. Every parent at some
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level has an intuition, but I just want
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to empower those of us who don't like
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the cultural trends and say, "You know
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what? I'm going to think locally, and
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I'm going to act locally." What's the
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next step then in the research that
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you're doing? Obviously, you said that
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the study is still up and running, and
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teachers can take part of it.
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phonesinfocus.org.
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What's next?
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So, we are collecting data through the
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end of this academic year. So, just for
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a couple more months, teachers have an
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opportunity to share their perspective.
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What we're going to do with all of that
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data is match it. And then, we're
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working actually with the National
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Governors Association, and the majority
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the vast majority of states are formal
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partners in this. So, of the our 50
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states um in the United States, and what
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we're going to do through these
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partnerships is match our survey data to
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records on attendance, to records on
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standardized achievement test scores. We
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also are going to actually look at
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survey measures of students' well-being
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and engagement in class. We're going to
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take all this data and ask the question,
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"Which policies in the United States for
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cell phones in schools are the best
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policies with the best uh long-term
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student outcomes?"
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Angela, always great to talk to you
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about this cuz it's so important.
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Appreciate it, and look forward to
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talking to you again down the road.
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Awesome, awesome. I love this place.
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Wharton really cares about impact, and
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I'm very, very um
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privileged, I should say, and grateful
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to be part of this great university and
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doing some of this important work.
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Angela Duckworth, Professor of
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Operations, Information, and Decisions
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here at the Wharton School.
