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Itay Goldstein: Welcome everyone.
This is the <i>Future of Finance</i>
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podcast, <i>Future of Finance</i> miniseries
here at Wharton Sirius XM.
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I am Itay Goldstein. I am a
Professor at the Finance
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Department and the Chair of the
Finance Department here at
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Wharton. And today, we are going
to talk about a very exciting
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topic, the future of fintech.
Throughout the history of
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finance, technology has always
played a central role. We saw
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many technological advancements,
starting from ATM and going to
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credit cards. And usually we had
the incumbents in the finance
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industry adopting all these
technological revolutions. But
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what happened in the last ten
years or so has been a little
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different. And this is why it
got this name, fintech.
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Basically, what we saw was that
the pace of technological
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advancements has been much
faster than before. But maybe
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even more peculiar and more
exciting is the fact that a lot
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of the technologies are being
introduced from the outside,
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kind of trying to change the
structure of the industry and
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challenge the incumbents. And
this is why this fintech wave
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has been so exciting and
generated so much attention.
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Today, we have two excellent
guests to talk about these
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changes and what is on the
horizon when it comes to
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fintech. We have Alesia Haas,
who is the CFO of Coinbase.
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Hello, Alesia.
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Hello.
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Great to see you.
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And we have Michelle
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Lai, who is a Wharton alum and
key player in many of the crypto
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startups and innovations. Among
other things, she is a board
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member of Electric Coin
Corporation. Hello, Michelle.
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Nice to be here, everyone.
Although I'll say it's the
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Electric Coin Company.
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Electric Coin Company. Thank you very
much. So great to have you,
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Alesia and Michelle. And let's
dive right in. So we are all
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thinking about cryptocurrencies,
starting from Bitcoin, and then
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we had many other
cryptocurrencies, and still have
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them, and they sort of go up and
down. If you're looking at it
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from the point of view of an
outsider who is just hearing
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about it, seeing some of the
developments, but not fully
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understanding what's going on,
what can you say about crypto?
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Has crypto now become
mainstream? Is it about to
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become mainstream? Is it meeting
the expectations given what we
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had in mind when it started?
Alesia, let's start with you.
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Thank you, and thank you for
having me. So I think it is no
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longer debated whether crypto is
here to stay. That was a
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conversation we had ten years
ago. Is this niche? Today, it is
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solidified. It is a mainstream
asset class. And I think you can
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look to examples of this. The
ETF approvals that we had
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starting in January of this year
with the Bitcoin ETF, and then
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just this summer, with Ethereum ETF,
have now given crypto
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the official stamp of approval
from both regulators and major
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institutional partners, and
we've seen incredible engagement
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there. Spot Bitcoin ETFs have
become the fastest growing ETFs
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of all time. There were over $17
billion in net inflows, and we
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are seeing broad adoption. We're
seeing new capital flow into
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these ETFs. We can also point to
the number of people that own
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crypto, both in the US and
globally. Over 52 million
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Americans have transaction in
crypto. Four hundred million people
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around the globe. When you look
at the G20 countries, you can
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see that they are driving
regulation in their markets. You
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can see this with MiCA in the EU.
In the US, we have bipartisan
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support for crypto regulation,
even though we have not seen the
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approvals that we need here to
have comprehensive regulation
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here in the US. And then we get
into, like, new products like
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stablecoins. And layer two is
like Base, which is a—
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stable— I'm sorry, which is a protocol
that we've built on top of
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Ethereum, which enables fast,
cheap transactions. We are
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seeing huge developer activity
now building new apps on these
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protocols that enable fast,
cheap, easy to use fintech
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products. And this is what I
think will then become what
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really becomes daily
conversations, daily use cases.
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How do we use payments that are
fast, cheap, global? And we've
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seen developer activity. We saw
eight times sequential developer
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activity in Base in the middle
of the year. We saw growth in Q3.
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And so this is where we really
think that the future is going,
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to build these ubiquitous, fast,
cheap, global payment
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infrastructures.
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Great. Michelle, what do you
think about it from where you
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sit in the industry?
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I don't blame some people for
having doubt. We've gone through
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a lot of market cycles. Many
existential crises, the most
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recent one being, I think, 2022,
and a lot of the centralized
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crypto players went down. And
that's— that's when Itay and
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I first met, actually. And I
think growing out of that we— we
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have persisted. And to Alesia's
data points, we have regulators
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coming in. We have governments
wanting to implement CBDCs and a
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lot of other initiatives that I
see as indicators that the world
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now has moved on from asking if it
will stick around. You know, you
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have all your large financial
players, like PayPal, BlackRock,
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Franklin Templeton, even UBS, a
couple of days ago, making their
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mark in the industry. And these
are organizations that don't
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change their minds very often on
the big things.
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So you both mentioned that this
is here to stay. It's kind of
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now a fact on the ground. It's
big, there are a lot of people
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paying attention to it, trading
it, investing in it. But I think
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the main question that comes to
mind is, how exactly is it going
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to change the financial system?
Is this going to make consumers'
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lives easier in any way? Is this
going to reform the way that we
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are doing payment, the way that
we are consuming and paying for
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things? So what should we expect
going forward from fintech and
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from cryptocurrency more
specifically?
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This is the first time that
we've seen a new payment rail.
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So much of the innovation over
the last couple of decades has
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been better user experiences.
Front end technology. But
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they've been going through
similar back end rails. Now
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we're innovating from the rails
up, and that is what I think is
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going to transform the next
generation. One of the things
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that we talk about as we've
moved from the internet
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standpoint, as we were offline,
then we're online, and now we're
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moving on chain. And so this is
really the next generation of
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the internet, and we're going to
be rebuilding transactions as
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well as a lot of just social
applications on these new rails.
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So I do think that we are going
to see crypto blockchains
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transform the way we transact.
It's going to bring value and
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data closer together into
transactions, and that will then
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underpin all of the financial
transactions. My belief is that
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we are going to see this happen
behind the scenes in many ways,
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and so I think we'll get to a
place where everyone is
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transacting on crypto rails, and
they don't even know that
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they're doing it. One of the
things that is different about
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crypto today is we talk about,
"Oh yes, I bridge my asset and
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I'm sending it on chain, and
it's alphanumeric characters."
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That is for the early crypto
adopters. This is for the
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advanced users. This is too
complex for mass market
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adoption. But we're seeing a lot
of progress now with, for
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example, Coinbase released Basenames.
Now I can send you crypto
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on chain just with a simple
name, very like an email
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address. This is where we need
to go with crypto to make it
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ubiquitous and easy to use for
everybody to be using it. But
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yes, I think payments will
happen on chain, and when you
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think about it, this rail— like,
you think about credit cards.
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They're expensive. For the
merchant, not for the individual
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consumer, but for the merchant.
So they are expensive. You think
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about ACH. It is slow. Cheaper,
but slower. It takes two to
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three days. And then you think
about things like Alipay, which
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are fast and cheap, but they're
not global. They're very much a
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closed loop system. Crypto
offers you fast, cheap, global
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and that is what is unique about
crypto,
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which is what's going to
drive a lot of adoption.
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- Michelle, where do you
see the main uses?
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Yeah, so one thing I love about
Coinbase is how it's been such a
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proponent for consumers. How to
use crypto in their everyday
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lives, how to make their lives a
lot easier and faster. I think
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the— just one point to add to the
consumer side is recently,
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Stripe acquired a stablecoin
company for more than a billion
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dollars. This is kind of a
reverse acquisition, because
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this company was trying to be
the Stripe of crypto. So I think
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you have this very wonderful,
like, from within these companies
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we're trying to rebuild rails
that have existed pretty well,
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but now are— time for— for a
revamp. The other thing I wanted
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to contribute is, beyond the
consumer space— you know, a lot
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of people who go to Wharton end up in
the fund management industry and
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Coinbase has been supporting
many of these large issuers in
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making things like— and correct
me if I'm wrong, Alesia— on the
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Bitcoin, Ethereum, ETF side,
that's obvious. The part that I
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really like that Coinbase is
helping is with what you call
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risk-weighted— sorry, real world
assets. Going back to my RW from
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BIS ratios. So, real world
assets. And these are where you
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can invest your tokens, such that
the underlying issue— or invest
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in money market funds. It's kind
of a reverse crossover, which—
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which I like. I think also for
the more kind of banking,
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mergers and acquisition
industry, where I'm really
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excited about is applying crypto
and crypto-adjacent technologies
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to improve the dealmaking
process. So for example, in an
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M&A deal, there are a lot of
trust assumptions between each
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party. And so far, we've
intermediated that by paying
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escrow agents, or assuming that
the repeat game set up ensures
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that people will be acting
fairly. But there are very
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cutting edge, frontier math-
based technologies that can
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obviate some of those trust
assumptions, and I'm super,
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super excited about that. Also,
one more thing is Singapore just
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announced in the last few days a
framework for commercializing
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tokenization for funds and fixed
income. So they've involved 40
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organizations over seven
countries— and seven countries in
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some of these experiments since,
I think, like, a couple years
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ago, or even more than that. So
I'm super excited for how the
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industry that most Wharton
people graduate into will be
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influenced and upgraded through
crypto and crypto-related
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technologies.
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So you both mentioned stablecoins.
And from what I hear
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around this is indeed an area
where people have a lot of hope
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for— you know, one of the things
about cryptocurrencies, and I
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think the reason that some
people are skeptical about them,
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is just the huge volatility. You
look at the prices, it's kind of
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like a roller coaster. And this
is exactly what stablecoins are
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trying to fix, to make it stable.
But the question, of course, is
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how credible it is. We saw
episodes of runs on stablecoins.
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So I think we all
understand it really depends on
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the model that you're using. So,
Alesia, what do you think about
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stablecoins? Is this credible
going forward? Are the benefits
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really that big to justify the
attention it's getting?
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- I think they are. And people are
definitely using stablecoins.
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I think it's really important to
look at stablecoin transaction
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volume. It's probably the most
telling trend happening in
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crypto right now. So in 2023,
stablecoin transaction volume
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was about $10 trillion. 2024
is on pace to double that.
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Year to date, we're near $20
trillion. And I think then you
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need to look to your second
question around, are they
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actually stable? And the answer
of that is yes, when the
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reserves are backed one for one.
So for example, USDC, which is a
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stablecoin that we offer in
partnership with Circle— we
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think it's preferred for
payments because it's regulated,
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it's transparent, and it's up
more than 300% year-to-date in
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its total market cap. And we're
seeing adoption in a variety of
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use cases. For payments, for
looking at it as a stable payer
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for trading crypto, but also as
savings assets in many countries
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where consumers don't have
access to US dollar bank
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accounts, but they want to hold
a US dollar asset. And this is
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providing them a unique way to
get that exposure, to hedge
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their risk from other currency
inflation in their own country.
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So when the reserves are
transparent and held dollar for
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dollar, we do believe they are
stable. And we've seen evidence
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of that. And then they provide a
reliable store value, and we are
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seeing that— them being adopted,
because of what I mentioned
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earlier. That they're faster,
cheaper and more effective, 24/7.
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There's very few things that you
can access 24/7, and instantly
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self custody on your own.
They're very unique in that way.
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And Michelle, do you share the
same opinion about stablecoins?
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And maybe taking it a step
further, how do you think stable-
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coins are going to interact,
potentially, with CBDCs? And do
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you think that CBDCs could
potentially replace them?
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Hmm. Well, spicy second
question. But on the first part,
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so, Alesia's take, I largely
agree with. However, stable-
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coins— most stablecoins are USD
based. So to the extent you
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believe the USD is stable, then
stablecoins are largely stable.
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But I know a lot of people who
believe that longer term, they
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are not. And a lot of people
believe that to the extent the
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issuers are centralized, you
don't really have something that
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is true to the ethos of crypto
when it was first founded. So
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there are continuing efforts to
create a different kind of
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stablecoin. Vitalik's favorite
one is RAI. It's been around
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since, I think, 2021. it's eth-
only collateral. There's no peg,
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and they use interest rates to
manage demand and therefore
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price. And it's so far actually
been relatively stable. It's
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been— it's been roughly around
$2.8 to $3 in the last few years,
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which is pretty remarkable,
because it's been a volatile
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last few years. So that's one
edge take. In terms of CBDCs,
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it's unclear right now, I think
where— what the— what the
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prevailing CBDC take will
be. In general, the countries
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that I'm aware of that are
making serious efforts to do
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this, these projects, they are
focused on quick settlement. And
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I do think that that use case is
highly valuable. You can see
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with— for example, BRICS Pay was
announced sometime— sometime
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recently, where to avoid long
settlement times between certain
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currencies that are not your
mainstream currencies, they've
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had to create an alternative
path. I think CBDCs is an effort
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to do a similar kind of thing.
There are concerns that I and
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many players in crypto worry
about, such as surveillance, and
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whether that leads us a step
closer— closer to, you know,
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outcomes that we may not want.
<i>1984</i> type of scenarios. But I
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think if we have sensible
players in governments around
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the world, we will be able to
avoid such a scenario, because
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there have already been parties
that have expressed concerns.
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I'd like to add on, if I could, to
Michelle's comments, because I
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agree with much of what she
said. So on the first, I think we
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should also say that the goal of
stablecoins is to have the coin
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represent the underlying asset.
And so with regards to, is it a
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US dollar backed stablecoin, the
goal is the stablecoin
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represents a US dollar. A euro
coin represents the underlying
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euro. I agree with Michelle that
many in crypto believe that the
00:17:46
reason Bitcoin came was it's
supposed to be the decentralized
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currency, where you can then own
an asset that isn't controlled
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by a centralized government. That
is up to the user, to decide what
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their allocation of their
investment portfolio or their
00:17:58
day to day use case should be.
But the stablecoin's goal is to
00:18:01
just represent the underlying
asset, which could be a basket
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of goods, could be an individual
currency, could be Ethereum,
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could be other things. I just
wanted to share that
00:18:08
perspective. And then my view on
CBDCs, which I think is worth
00:18:14
adding to this conversation, is—
stablecoins, to me, it's like a
00:18:19
new technology, much like a
credit card, much like an ATM.
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It's a new way to hold and
access a dollar. That was left to
00:18:26
fintechs, as you opened up this
conversation, Itay, to really
00:18:30
drive innovation. And so how we
distribute dollars, how we can
00:18:34
transact with dollars, how we
use assets, has really been left
00:18:39
to private industry, and I think
that that will continue in the
00:18:42
US. Because ultimately, when you
think about at least a US dollar
00:18:45
backed stablecoin, there's no
change to monetary authority.
00:18:48
It's still representing a dollar. Those
dollars are still held in
00:18:51
traditional financial
institutions. The mechanism of
00:18:54
transacting on a blockchain is
really just a technology
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innovation, much like we've seen
in generations before.
00:19:01
Yeah. And touching on that,
thinking about the government—
00:19:05
because the government obviously
plays an important role in CBDC,
00:19:08
but it also plays an important
role if you think about the
00:19:12
regulation of fintech and the
crypto markets and so on. And
00:19:18
Alesia, you mentioned MiCA as
one piece of legislation and
00:19:23
regulation. And I think we all
know that in the US, things are
00:19:28
a little slower than that. So do
you have any concerns about that
00:19:33
going forward? Do you think that
there needs to be a change?
00:19:37
I do. I think the US is at risk
of losing its leadership
00:19:41
position in technology, in
finance, if it doesn't establish
00:19:44
clear crypto regulation soon.
And as you noted, we have seen
00:19:48
countries like the EU with MiCA,
others in Asia, they're really
00:19:52
setting the standard. And
they're creating environments
00:19:54
that are fostering innovation.
They're driving investments. And
00:19:58
I do believe it's a matter of
our national security to defend the
00:20:01
dollar as the world's reserve on
chain currency, just like it has
00:20:04
been for the past decades. We
think that clear regulations
00:20:09
attract entrepreneurs. They
encourage developers to
00:20:12
innovate, they build businesses.
And right now, I think that
00:20:15
we're ceding that pole position
to other regions to build the
00:20:19
next wave of financial
innovation. But we have— there
00:20:23
is hope. There is a lot of hope,
because what we've now seen over
00:20:26
the past year has been a
recognition of this by many
00:20:30
policy makers and regulators.
And there's clear bipartisan
00:20:34
support in Congress that's
building momentum. And I think
00:20:37
that we have optimistic hope
that going into 2025 we're going
00:20:41
into the most pro-crypto
Congress that we have seen, and
00:20:44
that there's real hope that we
can get legislative clarity here
00:20:46
in the US to really keep driving
this technology.
00:20:49
Just to add a data point, I was
looking at a developer report,
00:20:53
global crypto developers, and
North America and Europe were
00:20:56
obviously leading for all of the
history of crypto. But Asia has
00:21:01
overtaken. Asia is now the
highest— now has the highest
00:21:05
number of crypto doves,
according to <i>Electric Capital</i>
00:21:08
<i>Report</i>, which is really
shocking. It's— I don't think
00:21:11
it's that we suddenly birthed a
bunch of crypto developers. It's
00:21:14
the outward migration that I
think happened.
00:21:17
Right. But— but I think one
thing, Michelle, that you
00:21:20
mentioned before is the
coordination in regulation
00:21:23
across different countries. Do
you think that continues to be a
00:21:27
concern?
00:21:29
I think right now, a lot of
countries are actually
00:21:32
converging. They're converging
on their attitude towards
00:21:36
compliance. It might take more
time to shake out, but I think a
00:21:40
couple years ago, it was really
unclear who would go which way.
00:21:44
Where— where things are a little
bit clearer is where most
00:21:47
governments agree on the
underlying technology. So for
00:21:52
example, CBDCs as a technology,
or the rails by which
00:21:57
transactions can be settled. But
in terms of tokens, stablecoins,
00:22:03
that I think still has
some gray area.
00:22:07
Yeah. Alesia, how do you see
that, the international arena? Do
00:22:11
you think it's getting better in
terms of just communication and
00:22:15
collaboration and coordination
across different regions?
00:22:20
I think that many people have
agreed on standards around
00:22:23
know your customer, money
laundering expectations,
00:22:27
sanctions. And that is very
consistent on a global basis, at
00:22:32
least in countries where there's
strong financial services and
00:22:35
heavy investment levels. So that
feels very consistent. What
00:22:39
feels inconsistent right now is
whether countries are adopting
00:22:42
what I would refer to as open
loop or closed loop systems. And
00:22:46
how they want to control data
and leave it very siloed within
00:22:51
their country, or whether
they're willing to let
00:22:53
boundaries be more fluid and
create global centers of
00:22:56
technology excellence and allow
their customers or their
00:22:59
citizens, rather, to transact
with those global companies that
00:23:02
are offering services in their
countries. And so for crypto,
00:23:04
this looks like, how do we self—
do we allow self custody? Can
00:23:08
people take their wallets
anywhere, or do they have to be
00:23:10
custodied in the country? And we
have to know those assets are
00:23:12
sitting within geographic
boundaries. And that is
00:23:15
something from a policy effort
that we are working very
00:23:19
carefully on, because we really
believe in the people's ability
00:23:22
to self custody and take their
assets with them
00:23:24
wherever they may be.
00:23:27
That's such a difficult problem.
Like, how do you control where
00:23:30
bits go?
00:23:33
Yes. Yeah, I think this is
definitely one of the challenges
00:23:36
with fintech. So taking a step
back and thinking about what
00:23:40
this fintech revolution is all
about, I think the role of
00:23:43
culture has been very important.
So is the role of trust. In some
00:23:48
sense, what ignited this fintech
wave was the search for better
00:23:56
ways to achieve trust, and
culture has been an important
00:23:59
part of it. Where are we on
this? Is that continuing to be
00:24:04
an important aspect, and where
are we going from here?
00:24:08
I think the culture— culture has
been maturing. I am
00:24:13
significantly older than most
people at crypto conferences, so
00:24:16
I kind of feel— earlier, kind of
felt that gap. But I think now
00:24:23
we've gone past the— largely gone
past the kind of memeing and
00:24:28
kind of the memecoin-only kind
of culture. There— there have
00:24:34
been several cycles in the last
year or so where you go to a
00:24:39
conference and people talk about,
we have too much infrastructure
00:24:43
now. We need applications. We
need rail users. We don't just
00:24:47
need Twitter followers and
Discord users. We need rail
00:24:51
transaction volume. So I really
like the way culture is moving,
00:24:55
and I really have to credit
Vitalik for pushing a
00:25:01
culture of being really useful
to a lot of people, and
00:25:05
especially to people who may be
in environments where they
00:25:09
really, really need stablecoins,
for example, versus just
00:25:14
using it because it's slightly
easier or fun. I'm very hopeful
00:25:20
that this culture will help us
move towards more productive use
00:25:25
cases. And a very interesting
recent development is, in the
00:25:29
last 72 hours, there are two—
two of the most famous
00:25:34
Ethereum foundation researchers,
they— they gave up some very
00:25:39
lucrative advisory positions for
a— kind of a crypto project,
00:25:44
because they decided that, hey,
we really want to dedicate our
00:25:48
lives and our research to
building open, fair,
00:25:51
decentralized protocols. We want
no conflicts of interest. So I
00:25:55
think culture, at least in the
space I'm active in, which tends
00:25:59
to be more eth-focused, is quite
positive at this moment. I'm
00:26:03
happy with it.
00:26:04
And Alesia, you, of course, you
come from a bigger firm, one of
00:26:09
the biggest in the industry. So
you probably see it a little
00:26:13
differently than that.
00:26:16
I think of feedback loops in
culture. So I think that culture
00:26:20
shapes how we develop
technology. And then I think new
00:26:22
technologies also shape culture.
And I think you can look to the
00:26:25
internet. And I think as you saw
people move online, you saw a
00:26:28
massive uptick in blending
cultures across the globe. The
00:26:31
world got smaller. The internet
has its own unique culture. You've
00:26:35
seen memes as a great example of
this. And as people become
00:26:39
accustomed to easily sharing
information, sharing ideas,
00:26:42
quickly accessing information,
people get more accustomed to
00:26:46
expecting that in all parts of
their lives. What they've also
00:26:50
seen, though, as we've gone more
online, is that more and more of
00:26:54
their information is controlled
in centralized systems. And so
00:26:57
this is part of the feedback
loop. So now we see they want
00:27:01
money to move at the speed of
the Internet, because that's how
00:27:03
they're used to sharing data.
They don't understand why money
00:27:06
cannot move at the same rate as
information. But they've also
00:27:10
seen like, ooh, I don't love that
centralized system, that
00:27:13
centralized power. And so that
is the feedback loop that I
00:27:16
think has then brought forth
crypto. And you can see this
00:27:19
with younger generations who are
more comfortable digitally
00:27:21
native. They drive demand for
innovative financial products,
00:27:25
and it reflects their values,
like self custody, like
00:27:28
decentralization, like
independence. And I think you
00:27:31
can see that that is giving rise
to the adoption of crypto. And
00:27:35
many people who then are sitting
in companies are now watching
00:27:39
this cultural shift, and they're
using that cultural shift to
00:27:42
drive their next roadmap. And
that is what I think, leading
00:27:45
also to this wave of adoption of
crypto within fintechs.
00:27:50
Great. So we're coming close to
the end of our time here. So let
00:27:55
me just ask each one of you kind
of a concluding question, maybe
00:28:01
reflection on what has happened
and what we should expect going
00:28:06
forward. So if you were to
predict whether we are going to
00:28:11
live in a very different
financial system a few years
00:28:14
from now, what would you say? Is
it going to look very different
00:28:17
from what it is today? And if
so, what is the timeline that
00:28:20
you think we should keep in mind
for that? Alesia.
00:28:25
I think we're on the precipice
of moving transactions on chain.
00:28:28
I think that we are moving
towards a world where many
00:28:31
people won't see it, because it
will be hidden behind the
00:28:34
technology stacks of companies
in which you already transact.
00:28:37
But we're going to move to a
world where we've adopted crypto
00:28:40
technology, where we are moving
towards Bitcoin being an
00:28:43
important investment asset in
people's portfolio, where we're
00:28:46
going to see the rise of stable
coins used in cross-border
00:28:49
payments. And I do think that
we're also going to see the rise
00:28:53
of the new social media apps on
crypto rails that will enable
00:28:57
creator communities to to get
compensated from their
00:29:01
creativity and move away from
these decentral— decentralized
00:29:04
intermediaries. So yes, I'm very
optimistic, and I think that we
00:29:07
are just getting there. Because
we now have faster, cheaper
00:29:10
technology. We are making it
easier to use, and all of those
00:29:13
key building blocks are getting
to be in place.
00:29:15
And what is the timeline?
00:29:18
Oh, my goodness, Itay, I'm
not a crystal ball.
00:29:20
But I definitely see
over the next
00:29:22
five to ten years that this is
going to be a transformation in
00:29:25
how we transact on on chain.
00:29:27
- Okay. Michelle.
00:29:30
Yeah. So I think the— one of the
gifts of crypto that— is that it's
00:29:34
shaking up the incumbents. It's
forcing them to change, to
00:29:37
update, to get with consumer
preferences. But one quote I
00:29:44
always refer to from Jeff Bezos
is focus not on what changes,
00:29:49
but what doesn't change. And I
think what will never change, is
00:29:53
people want as much freedom as
they can have. Financial
00:29:57
freedom. They want flexibility
in their lives. They want to
00:30:00
express themselves. So to the
extent crypto allows them to do
00:30:04
that, I think in all the good
ways, things will change.
00:30:09
- And you also don't want to
pick the timeline. - Timeline.
00:30:13
I think we are in the time of
change. I think there's no
00:30:16
turning back. It's— crypto is a
religion, and there is a lot of
00:30:20
and there is a lot
of people praying.
00:30:25
I see. That's a very good note to
end on. Okay, thank you very
00:30:30
much, Alesia, Michelle, for a
great conversation on the future
00:30:34
of fintech. Certainly a lot to
watch for and wait to see what
00:30:39
happens. Thank you very much.
00:30:42
- Thank you.
- Thank you, Itay.
