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The National Football League has quite a checkered past when it comes to the issues of race and hiring. There have
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been several instances of coaches being fired in circumstances that probably did
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not warrant that person being let go. The Rooney rule was set up back in 2002 because of the concern of a lack of
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black head coaches and general managers in the league. And the latest fight deals with a former head coach, Brian
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Flores, who was fired from his team, the Miami Dolphins, after back-to-back winning seasons. So, how should we view
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the background of the NFL around race? Pleasure to be joined by Ken Shropshshire who's professor ameritus
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here at the Wharton School. He is also a strategic adviser to 76 Capital. He has
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a long background working with the world of sport on many of these issues. Ken, great to see you again. How are you,
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sir? >> Great, Dan. All is good. Good to see you. >> Let me start right there with the
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broader question of the NFL's history around opportunity for people of color.
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Give us your thoughts. Well, it's it's varied and you cannot say the NFL has not uh taken a lot of
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the positive steps to try to make things better. It it starts with players on the
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field. It actually integrated before Major League Baseball. Most people don't
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don't know that in 1946, so a year before Jackie Robinson. The the big problem in two areas, and today we'll
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focus on coaches, but there's also the issue with ownership, which is is a whole whole another show.
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So in the year where the the sole black coaches were Tony Dunie and and Dennis Green, the NFL said, "Well, let's take
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some action to try to make this better." That's when the Rudy Wolf came in force,
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as you as you note. And there was this positive flow from uh the early 2000s up until uh there were some setback years
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that came maybe a decade or so later. He hit a peak of of eight African-American
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head coaches influenced by this this hiring technique, the strategy. I should said hiring, I should say interview. I
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mean, the whole idea of the Rooney rule is to make sure that diverse coaches were interviewed, specifically black
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coaches were interviewed. The rule speaks more broadly, but the effort is focused on on black coaches. Big setback
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in this last hiring cycle. uh 10 openings, not a single African-American hired. So, so that's really why this
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this new level of attention came coupled with this lawsuit that had been filed previously by Brian Flores that he had
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been discriminated against in the hiring process. And then the the final layer is
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this this effort that's in place uh in the White House today to end any effort
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that has inklings of what they label as DEI. And so with the NFL specifically and the
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Rooney rule, what is it about the rule itself? Because you hear a lot of people say that, you know, it just does not
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fulfill kind of what I think a lot of people believe that it should. Are there specifics that you have seen that really
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there are areas where it just has not done the job, the rule itself? >> Well, yeah. Ultimately, you think about
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any kind of law, any kind of legislation is only as good as the enforcement and people following it. But also, you know,
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as we know with taxes, it's kind of easy to follow the letter of law, but also do
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something that that may not be what the law intended that there are these tax evasion is a is a is a legitimate
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phrase. So, the idea of evading the the meaning of this rule. >> Yeah. Yeah. we'll do a pro for
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interview, but we've already decided who we want to hire. So maybe not to even
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focus on who this this person is they never even considered could be. Are they the right one? Are they the next um
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Tomlin or are they the next you back in the day Ray Roads? Yeah. That you had thought about that got gets hired
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because you encountered them in the interview process. So So that that's been the main flaw that's there. I I for
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one have after this last over 10 cycle I kind of abruptly said ah I'm just end
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the ruining rule let's see how things operate without it and and let's go to
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another path that that we um penalize teams or owners that do discriminate that we can can prove discrimination
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overtly in some other kind of way as opposed to going through this this activity that the the Rooney rule
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imposes. I don't know if if that's right or wrong. I'm I'm I'm still kind of on
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the fence about whether or not we should push to continue the Rooney rule. Um it
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it should exist in some way, but obviously the form that it's in now has been problematic.
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>> What does the case then of Brian Flores, and this is a case that actually was
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taken up to the Supreme Court for potential review. The court said it would not. So that basically the lower
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court ruling would stand. What does that case really potentially do to the structure of hiring and opportunity for
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uh for coaches of color in the league right now? >> Yeah. You know, I want to step back.
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Brian Flores is is definitely uh a men among men in terms of I'm going to take
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this step because I think there's a real problem here. Here's a here's a guy who
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had been a head coach. Yeah. uh with the Miami Dolphins, got fired, was engaged in the hiring process to to get a new
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job, and as modern day warning, um uh was texted incorrectly uh by someone involved in the hiring process
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congratulating him. Turned out he was the wrong Brian. Didn't get the job. And
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Brian Flores said, "Let me look a little bit more deeply and see what's going on
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here." and he decided that for a couple of reasons he should bring in action
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against uh his former team against teams that he was involved in the hiring process and he brought in um other pls
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other coaches black coaches who had gone through similar processes and said let's
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let this whole process see the light of day let's let's let the court the the
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light of justice shine on this and let's see what's going on here let people see
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this so that's what becomes important with the Supreme Court ruling The NFL wanted the process to be more
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secretive in a sense >> and go through the arbitration process with Commissioner uh Goodell. Uh and not
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all elements would have to be exposed. But in the court, there's depositions
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there. There's the interrogatories. all the all this exposure will take place
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and we would get a better vision of what's going on here because what we know in this this modern era and and
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where the laws tend to be pointing to is that you need a a smoking gun to successfully bring a case of
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discrimination in any kind of way and people give everyone credit people are more sophisticated today than to say uh
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we're not going to hire any black people or I've already decided that I want to
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hire this person without interviewing anyone So, we have to go more deeply and that
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that's what a real court analysis would allow to occur to to see the light of
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day to see what's really going on here. And and by the way, Flores really did
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risk his career in doing this. He was fortunate to get hired by Pittsburgh and then later Minnesota and and he kind of
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seems to have gotten his footing back into the business, but ultimately will he get get hired again as a head coach
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having brought this action against the National Football League. How much of this is also beyond the issue of race,
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just the structure of the hiring and firing process within the league? And I say that because you talk about the
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arbitration component that could have been uh in play with Brian Flores. We're
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hearing the same thing with former coach John Gruden, who's obviously white, in
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terms of, you know, the firing that occurred with him with the Las Vegas Raiders. It seems like there is a a
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structure element in place that is really a challenge against some of these coaches when these situations occur.
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>> No, for sure. And interestingly, you know, we often say that sport leads
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the way in society and all this sort of stuff. This this these leagues are very unique in terms of the way that they
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operate. I mean even even more deeply I mean the analysis that that a lot of people have been doing more more
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recently is the the level and this kind of relates to what you're saying of nepotism that relates in in terms of
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hiring the num the family names uh that exist in terms of the coaching family Shanahan the Ryan family
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the Phillips family Kubak family the Belich family all those their sons and and and and fathers and and and now
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grandsons starting to come into play that that they get access in that kind of way. So that's just oldfashioned.
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Not to it just happens that there's there are no blacks families like that, but but that's going on as well. So So
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there's so much that goes on that the league uh and and it's a a private
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enterprise that has this this kind of huge public trust kind of element. Yeah. >> Um well, in some ways we can't look into
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businesses and don't have the interest in looking into the businesses the way
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that we do in sports. So, so the the gruden kind of exposure I mean one thing one thing that's that's become you know
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society should take note of already you know these texts and these emails and all these things become public and they
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be they can become problematic. >> You've consulted with NFL owners over
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the years. What then from your perspective is missing in the process that would make hiring in the league for
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these positions more equitable? Well, the the great Tony Dunie, the the the the first Super Bowlinning head
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coach African-American in in the National Football League, has offered himself up and has engaged in helping in
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the hiring process over the years. And and he says the first question when a an owner asks him to help is
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when they say, "What what candidates are there?" Tony's question is, "Well, what
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do you want? What do you want in a head coach?" And if if you tell me that, I
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can I can give you the candidates of of whatever race. I'll give you the best
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candidates and we can go from there. So, so the idea of of being even more defined, I always refer to it at that
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that that that inflection moment, that that hiring moment, not just to here's a
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list, but to to really have someone and this is the whole problem, the issue exists and and the value of this this
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kind of battleworn diversity issue is it's important to have a diverse group
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of people in the room to make better decisions, >> right? And and that's what Tonyy's
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trying to figure out. How can I help you to make that decision and it could turn
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out you go 0 for 10 in a hiring season. You've hired the best people, but you've
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also done the process the right way. That that I think that's where we all want to get to in terms of society. And
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I think some people are anxious uh about getting there. But we as a society, football as a sport is is not yet there.
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>> Ken, always great to talk with you. Thanks very much for your time today.
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>> Thank you, Dan. I appreciate it. You got it. Ken Shropshshire who is a professor
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emeritus at the Wharton School and strategic adviser to 76 capital.