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uh so hi Steve um I'm here with Steve uh
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uif fusa uh and Steve is the author of a
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wonderful book uh called a man and his
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ship America's greatest naval architect
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and his quest to build the SS United
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States it was named by the Wall Street
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Journal as one of the top 10 non-fiction
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books of
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2012 uh it's a personal favor to mine uh
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in doing some research on a book that I
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was writing uh I came across this and
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actually ended up using uh some of the
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stories and and the the the personality
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of the William Francis Gibbs the the
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architect of this great ship uh in uh as
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an example of some things that I wanted
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to talk about so Steve welcome to
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knowledge of wardon oh thank you so much
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for having me um so I I just thought it
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would be interesting if we could chat a
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little bit about both uh your journey
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and writing this book and also uh the
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the journey you Chronicle uh William
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Francis Gibbs and uh his um remarkable
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achievement in uh in building the SS
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United States so why don't we just start
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by uh giving you a chance to tell uh
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tell our audience how did you stumble
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into this topic what was it that
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prompted you to write about uh about
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this remarkable man well for me I was
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always interested in um ocean liners for
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as far back as I could remember and
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ships in the sea in general uh my
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grandmother uh was a passenger on the SS
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United States and she told me uh stories
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of what it was like on board and she
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also told me the story of the Titanic uh
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which first got me interested in ships
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in the sea when I was around 6 or seven
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years old and uh it was a personal
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passion of mine I was a little kid that
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built models of ships in my parents'
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basement and uh I first saw the SS
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United States when we were looking at
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colleges my junior year and we were
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driving over the walw bridge in 1996 and
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the SS United States once the glory of
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the American passenger Fleet had just
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arrived in Philadelphia and was sitting
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there rusted and Abandoned and I pointed
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at said oh there it is there it is and
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my grandmother was in the car with us
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and she said oh I remember that ship and
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I ended up coming to Philadelphia for
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graduate school and uh never leaving
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been here ever since and back in 2007 um
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I started doing some freelance pieces
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and one of them was on the SS United
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States um because I had just been
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fascinated with it and um the editor at
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plan Philly uh gentleman called Matt
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gois uh said well we've always wanted to
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have someone write about that how about
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you tell us more about the man who
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designed it and then uh it ended up
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evolving into a book proposal and it was
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published by simonon Schuster after
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about 5 years of work and for me it
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started off with the interest in the
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ship as an American icon is a true
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Masterpiece of American Technology built
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at a time in the 1940s and 50s when
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America was at the top of its
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manufacturing prowess and as One
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Maritime historian said this is a ship
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that was like a cathedral it was built
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to last forever in terms of how well she
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was built but then I began thinking
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about what about the man who created the
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ship that's what ultimately made the
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book is what sort of creative person did
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it take to design a ship this
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spectacular and this um strong and fast
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why did he want to build the finest
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fastest soci liner in the world and then
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I began looking at William Francis Gibbs
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and discovered this man is on par with
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uh Frank Lord Wright John Augustus
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robling who designed the Brooklyn Bridge
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one of these American creative uh
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individuals who uses the American
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industrial system the financial system
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and his own creativity and vision to
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create not just a ship that was built to
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transport people from A to B but
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something to transcend that to be a
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floating work of art uh this man was so
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in love with this ship that he would
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greet it every time he ca every time the
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ship came into New York and uh someone
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once asked him Mr Gibbs do you love that
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more than your wife and he
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responded you're a th% correct what sort
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of person is this
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someone who's married to his work I
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guess very much so uh so tell us a
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little bit about um about the U the
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story that William Francis Gibbs that
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you uncovered about him what uh what led
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him to become interested in ships well
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in 1894 when he was an 8-year-old boy he
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uh was brought by his father to the
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cramped shipyards in the banks of
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Delaware here in Philadelphia and he saw
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an ocean L launch called the St Louis
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and she roared down the ways sending up
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clouds of smoke as she splashed into the
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Delaware the crowds were cheering the
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American flags were waving and Gibb said
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from that moment I knew what I wanted to
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do with my life I knew I wanted to be a
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naval architect his father was an
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extremely wealthy finer um he was very
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closely connected with the Widener
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family he was one one of the richest men
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in Philadelphia and his father said uh
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that is not a good career to be a naval
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architect and Gibbs ended up going to
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Harvard in preparation to be a lawyer he
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proved to be a terrible engineer ing
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student and a math student and uh he had
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he ultimately and this is the defining
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event of his life he was brought up in a
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big mansion in writtenhouse square uh
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all the Comforts and conveniences of the
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early 1900s Gilded Age America but then
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his senior year his father went bankrupt
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and the family lost everything this was
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about what
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192 1910 okay 1910 and Gibbs would later
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say if not for the fact that my father
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father had gone bankrupt I never would
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have amounted to anything in life and
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that I think really gave him the drive
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to reinvent himself from being the poor
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little rich boy who loves ships into
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being someone who's saying you know what
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I'm going to be an AAL architect and I'm
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going to do it on my terms my father
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pursued this this path and he basically
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tried to make me do something I didn't
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want to do and I'm going to show him I
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can do what I want to do so so uh so
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Gibbs really was a man who
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uh saw the um the dream very early in
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life uh when he had this experience with
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the the ship launching and then uh found
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the
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motivation uh sort of a little bit later
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while he was in college and then spent
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the rest of his life essentially
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pursuing the the dream very much so and
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uh he and his brother Frederick uh
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became very close business partners and
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they came up with designs in 1914 for a
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thousand foot long American ocean liner
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and uh this is a time when America was
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not really building passenger ships and
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Gibbs who actually ended up finishing
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his training as a lawyer at Colombia he
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ended up working his way through law
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school at his father's assistance um
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said I can't be stuck in this profession
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I can't stand I need to do something I
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really love to do so he ultimately
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finagled two connections one was to a
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gentleman called Admiral David W Taylor
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who was Chief Constructor of the US Navy
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uh who also was uh very interested in
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America building up its passenger and
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naval fleets at the time uh Taylor ended
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up meeting this young very nerdy very
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socially awkward young man from
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Philadelphia and said this kid has some
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issues with math but he has drive he has
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talent and Taylor ends up taking Gibbs
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under his wing and providing a lot of
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the training that Gibbs never had and a
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lot of the support and credentials but
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then Gibbs also got introduced to JP
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Morgan Jr uh who was the son of the
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famous banker and JP Morgan Jr had his
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own issues with shipping because his
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father was one of the principal actually
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he was the principal investor in the
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White Star Line that built the RMS
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Titanic ah so all shipping stories
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either begin end or go through the
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Titanic uh oddly enough William Francis
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Gibbs when he was designing the ship
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that became the SS United States his
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primary uh Focus was I want this ship to
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be able to withstand the same damage
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that sank the Titanic in
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1912 and that was sort of the departure
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point for ship safety and he felt that a
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lot of shipping companies were skimping
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on safety on the in the for the sake of
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Passenger comfort for the sake of
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cost-saving and he would later say that
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uh it is almost a crime for a company to
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skimp on safety uh for the sake of
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shortterm uh cost saving because the
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potential damage that could happen to a
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company when you know hundreds or in the
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case of the Titanic you know 1500 people
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killed uh is definitely it's actually
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makes better business sense to over
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engineer a ship right for safety we're
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we're having a little example of air
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safety uh even as we do this interview
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with uh the Boeing Dreamliner the latest
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uh technology of the air having not been
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completely uh uh flawlessly designed and
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and now The Fleets uh on the sidelines
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for a few uh weeks or months as they
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figure out the battery problem that it's
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having so uh so let me ask you a little
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bit um uh I know that William Francis
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Gibbs was on the cover of Time Magazine
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when one year in the uh in the 40s uh
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what brought him to the to the cover of
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Time Magazine well Gibbs uh by the 1940s
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had founded his own very successful
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Naval Architecture Firm uh David W
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Taylor the famous Admiral who become a
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partner his brother was a partner and
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they ended up becoming the leading uh
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Navy contractors uh building new Navy
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ships during the 1930s during the
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buildup to World War II and gibbs's real
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strength I mean as one of his colleagues
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said he was a great designer but his
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real strength lay in project management
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he was very much kind of a Steve Jobs
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figure who came up with the concept of
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how he wanted a ship to look the
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specifications it would it was to have
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and then would work very closely with
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very talented subordinates who were very
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good technically to come out with the
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finished product he was an utter control
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freak uh and he also had a very
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notorious mouth uh he had spoke with
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addiction of a Philadelphia Aristocrat
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but had the mouth of a sailor and uh he
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um ended up getting on the cover of Time
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Magazine because his firm was
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responsible for the production of the
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famous Liberty ships which were the
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first true mass-produced cargo ships in
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which America's industrial engine was
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thrown behind the war effort and this is
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a time when America could produce at one
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time a liberty ship in 3 weeks from stop
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to finish from start to finish prefab
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being a lot of stuff off site and then
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building these ships basically faster
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the Germans could sync them and that's
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what landed him on the cover of Time
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Magazine he was called a technological
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revolutionist he brought Henry Ford's
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idea of mass production from Cars to
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ships interesting and uh and I I seem to
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remember uh somewhere in your book uh
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that actually he not just a liberty ship
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but he ended up his firm ended up
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designing something like 3/4 of all the
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ships that the Americans uh used in the
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war effort or some large percentage yes
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his firm Gibson Cox was responsible
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directly or indirectly for 70% of All
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Ships built during World War II all Navy
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ships and his firm uh ended up becoming
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one of the leading uh military
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contractors uh he loved passenger ship
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design but he saw it didn't really pay
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that much uh so he decided to focus on
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government contracts he had a
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relationship with President Roosevelt
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Who Loved ships himself and uh that
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really grew his business he ended up
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having employing nearly 2,000 draftsman
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designers engineers in his firm in lower
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Manhattan by the end of World War II
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interesting let let's let's uh segue
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just a little bit you mentioned Steve
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Jobs uh as a a a a modern uh person with
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some of the same qualities that William
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Francis Gibbs had um tell me a little
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bit about uh Steve Jobs's personality is
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now uh you know part of the public
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discourse because of biography recently
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written uh by Walter Isaacson uh you've
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uh you've uh you've gotten William
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Francis Gibbs into our imagination What
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kind of person was he and and why do you
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compare him as a personality to uh to
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Steve Jobs well in many ways Gibbs was
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an engineer with the soul of an artist
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and I think Gibbs was someone who had
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very um little patience for a small talk
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he wanted very when he was talking he
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wanted you know he was very to the point
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of what he wanted uh he as a young man
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when he was just starting out uh as a
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designer he felt he was too nice and too
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Meek and he felt that his Pro his his
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ideas were getting bowled over so in his
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early 30s he sort of had this
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transformation where he said you know
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what if I want to get something done if
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I want to aim for an ambitious goal
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being disagreeable or even being nasty
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is a way of getting to a to a greater
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goal he would later tell his um his uh
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staff when they finished design the SS
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United States I apologize for how I
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behaved but this is like trying to build
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a pyramid here interes and uh and Gibbs
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was the sort of guy that would sneak up
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on his designers when they were working
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soundlessly it kind of creeped them out
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a little bit but he was everywhere he
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kept um he would he kept um tabs on
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everything everyone was doing
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sort of a control uh a control
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personality but but he knew exactly what
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he wanted at the end exactly he was a he
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was a very uh controlling personality uh
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he once he also had a great sense of
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humor uh love giving speeches and you
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know Steve Jobs is a similar way very
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charismatic Persuader uh for impossible
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ideas and uh Gibbs once said uh if I
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didn't have a sense of humor working
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with ship Builders I'd be dead a long
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would have been dead a long time ago and
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he says everyone thinks such a mean
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fellow cuz I like ships More Than People
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interesting which is I think it was a
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dig it himself but also revealing that
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he um was devoted to Creation did he did
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he have the same problems with his
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family life as as job seems to have had
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with his he had a very distant
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relationship with his children uh he and
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his wife uh ended up leading uh
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relatively separate lives uh by their
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You by when they were in older um Vera
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was the daughter of Paul Kath the famous
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New York attorney who founded Kat Swain
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and Moore and she was very um devoted to
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her husband and his
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creation but uh Gibbs on one hand I
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think relied on her but then he once
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said in a New Yorker interview my life
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is my wife is a beautiful intelligent
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wonderful woman she goes her way and I
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go mine perhaps that's why we get along
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so well so it was kind of a telling
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thing I think he was he wanted to create
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his own world and gibs and Cox's firm
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was um a very closely guarded um
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basically under the mil the context of
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military secrecy um you there were all
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mazes of barriers um to get in and get
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out uh he once told a security guard um
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please check the identification of
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everyone who comes in here and the next
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day uh William Fran gibes walks in the
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door and this this is a story from one
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Naval architect told me um and the
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security guard sees the um Gibbs in and
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waves them through and Gibbs says you're
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fired you should have asked me for ID
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yeah so I think like jobs and Gibbs they
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want to create their own sort of little
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creative worlds and I guess I guess in
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the high-tech sense uh Trade Secrets and
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all that stuff creates the need for that
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kind of uh careful scrutiny and security
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and in and gives his world it was the
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government contracts and the secrets of
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Naval design and and then his own
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personality that did it oh they all
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meshed very well I mean the uh the naval
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vessels he were designing were top
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secret right and there were a lot of
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other Naval firms that wanted to get a
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look at what he was doing uh there was
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one exception though he asked a a bishop
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to come in and take a look at what he
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was doing a bishop and the bishop said
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are you sure you want me to uh come into
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this model shop and see this see all the
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stuff you're doing you know how clergy
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talk and Gibb said that's okay I'm not
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worried about you I'm not only convinced
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in your character but the abysmal
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ignorance of the you're about to
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see well um uh Steve I uh I remember
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when I first moved to Philadelphia going
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down to the docks uh here in
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Philadelphia and seeing this great huge
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hulking vessel uh parked uh on the
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Delaware River uh and wondering what on
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Earth could that be uh and it said SS
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United States on the side and having
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read your book uh a whole area of not
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just Philadelphia history but also uh
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the history of American Business and uh
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this incredibly important uh ship
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building industry that the United States
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was so strong in over the years uh
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really came to life so uh so thank you
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for bringing that all to us thank you
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[Music]
