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I think the trajectory
of financial literacy has been positive over time, but positive
at a somewhat glacial pace. It's
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not improving quickly enough.
And I think recent government policy and actions that we've
seen over the last four or five
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years is a positive step
forward, but raises perhaps more questions than— concerns that it
calms, right? Who's going to teach
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it? - Right. - How's it going to be
taught? What's going to be taught? There are a lot of
challenges.
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So here we are now. If we're
moving at kind of a glacial pace, here comes artificial
intelligence, which is certainly
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not moving glacial. It's moving
about as fast as you possibly can. And I guess the question
is, if AI is having all of these
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impacts in all of these
different areas, where does it potentially fit in, in and
around financial literacy?
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Welcome to The Ripple Effect,
the podcast that takes you on a journey through the minds of
Wharton faculty. I'm your host,
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Dan Loney. And in each episode,
we'll be diving deep into the inspiration behind the
groundbreaking research that
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Wharton professors have
conducted, and exploring how their findings resonate with the
world today. Well, in this world
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where seemingly everything is
being linked to artificial intelligence, we take a look now
at whether or not AI could
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potentially have an impact on
something like financial literacy. Pleasure to be joined
here in studio by Michael
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Roberts, Finance Professor here
at the Wharton School. Great to see you. - You too, Dan.
- Before we dig into the AI side of it,
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though, I would like to get your
thoughts on where you think kind of financial literacy is in
general, in our country, and
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maybe in around the world right
now. - Sure. I guess I can start off by
saying, I'm not entirely sure
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what financial literacy even
means at this point. But if I think about the research on the
subject and my engagement with
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practitioners, I would describe
it in several ways. So first, in general, it's pretty poor. If
you think about financial
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literacy rates, they're about
57% in the US. But that hides a lot of variation in the
population across genders,
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across income, across education,
across age, where we see rates varying a great deal. I think
the trajectory of financial
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literacy has been positive over
time, but positive at a somewhat glacial pace. It's not improving
quickly enough. And I think
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recent government policy and
actions that we've seen over the last four or five years is a
positive step forward. But— but
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raises perhaps more questions
than concerns that it calms, right? Who's going to teach it? - Right.
- How's it going to be
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taught? What's going to
be taught? There are a lot of challenges. So here we are now. If we're
moving at kind of a— a glacial
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pace, here comes artificial
intelligence, which is certainly not moving glacial. It's moving
about as fast as you possibly
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can. And I guess the question
is, if AI is having all of these impacts in all of these
different areas, where does it
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potentially fit in, in and
around financial literacy? - Yeah, it's hard to not see it as being
central in one way or another to
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financial literacy and financial
practice more broadly. And given how quickly it's changing, as
you've mentioned, perhaps what
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I'm about to say will be
outdated when this is eventually published. Nonetheless, I'll
take a stab. Where it's at right
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now is— is simply nowhere near
where it needs to be in terms of a standalone, say, investment
advisor, or a sort of financial
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guru for individuals. It takes a
great deal of understanding of finance, and an ability to
prompt or engage with the AI to
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get meaningful answers out of
it. I mean, when it does produce answers, they can be impressive,
but they can also lead you
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astray. So how long before we
get to a point where anyone can just talk to AI and have it
solve its— their financial
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problems? I have no idea. But
it's not gonna— it's not going to negate the importance of what I
call financial proficiency.
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You've taken a little bit of a
look at this in terms of how generative AI could potentially
have a role here. What have you
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found out? I've been playing with it for
about two years, ever since— you know, I had a bunch of students
in one of my class use it to
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solve an exam. It was in a
different context, admittedly, more programming and data
science. Nonetheless, it was a
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quick wake-up call. So I've been
feeding it questions, both standard financial literacy
questions, as well as questions
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from my exams. And it's
interesting. AI is financially literate by any measure, in
practice. From that perspective,
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it's impressive. But when you
ask questions such as— you know, just broad open-ended questions—
you know, "How should I save for
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retirement?" "What should I invest
in?" Now I'm sure there's
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regulations or restrictions on
the AI from becoming— you know, an unlicensed registered RIA, but
it really— it doesn't know where
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to begin. It provides a very
broad overview. And so what I mean when I say I don't know
when it's going to be ready to
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be our financial gurus, I don't
know how quickly AI technology will progress to that point.
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What has to happen, then,
potentially, for it to get to that point— because the one
thing we do know is that as AI
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is building up, we have to
remember there are human components that are kind of
behind the scenes on all of this.
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I think what's critical is
that I don't see AI as just a panacea. I view it as a
complement and an accelerant on
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our path towards financial
literacy, whatever that may be, or financial proficiency. In
other words, I think it's going
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to be critical that people
recognize that knowledge of finance and financial principles
are not going to go away. That
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they're going to be paramount in
order to engage successfully with AI, wherever it may be in
the future.
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But I think some people would
wonder, with the fact that we know that financial literacy,
education is important, and the
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fact that it has been a hard
thing to truly implement in the right manners in schools in
different portions of the
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country, of whether or not at
some point AI can be that vehicle to be able to help teach
along the way.
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- Oh, I think it can and it probably
will be a wonderful aid sooner than we think. So Sal Khan has
created Khanmigo. - Yeah. - There's no
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reason we can't have personal AI
TAs for our classes now, or very soon. But there's a difference
between being a TA for a class,
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and being someone who can answer
individual specific personal or professional financial
questions. - Right. - That's
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important. It's important to
recognize that distinction. Everyone's different. Me saving
for retirement is different from
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you saving for retirement, and
so on. - Right. And the understanding of the
dynamics of how each person
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feels about that, as well, are
something that maybe the AI cannot fully and truly
understand. - Not
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without the help of the end
user. And that's what I mean when I say it's critical for
individuals to understand how to
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communicate with AI. But to do
so you have to understand finance. You have to know what
to ask it, and importantly, how
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to interpret what it's spitting
back at you. I noticed in the research you
had done in around AI there are
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also instances where you kind of
rephrase some of the questions that you did to try and see if
there would be a better
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understanding for the generative
AI tool, the ChatGPT, as well. Yeah, absolutely. I had to learn
how to communicate with the AI
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in some sense in order to give
it the opportunity to get the right answer. And by the same
token, I imagine the AI is
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learning how I'm communicating
with it, in order to give me the answer I'm looking for.
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What you're saying is somewhat
of a theme that we've heard from other experts, other analysts,
other business leaders— that AI
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in the scope of where financial
literacy may be going will be a path to help it along the way.
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But it won't be the
be all end all. I think it has the opportunity
to accelerate our progress. But
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it won't be a replacement for
financial literacy, financial proficiency. You also talk in your work about
the ability to properly
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interpret the answers being
given by ChatGPT as well. Yeah, 100%. It's not just spitting out
a number. It's giving a somewhat
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long-winded explanation of the
answer. And so if you don't understand what it's returning,
the information is not helpful.
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It's not usable. But is the expectation that,
though, there is a level of development that we should
expect from ChatGPT in this
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area and a lot of areas as we
move forward? - Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's
progressing so quickly. It's
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difficult to keep up with. And
that's why I say it's hard to see a limitation, at least from
my perspective, on what it's
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going to be able to do. Other
than I don't see it, at least currently, as a replacement for
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the progress we need to make on
the literacy side. What has that research meant to
your mindset around teaching
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finance and the component of
having ChatGPT as a tool to use in that process? Oh, I'm incredibly excited. I
take the view that ChatGPT or
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other Gen AI models are just a
fantastic tool in the toolkit that we need for addressing
financial challenges. So I
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embrace it. I encourage my
students to embrace it. I want them to use it on tests or
homework if they choose. But what
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they quickly learn is that if
they're going to use it, they can't shirk on understanding the
finance. - But because
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we're talking about an area like
finance, then I think you also have to bring into the
discussion the regulatory side
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of how that industry is managed
to begin with, and potentially how AI may have to be managed in
and around finance. I mean,
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obviously I think we're talking
about a little bit larger-scale discussion. But still, the
industry as a whole, there's
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going to be a focus on how AI
kind of plays into finance as we move forward.
- Absolutely.
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It's a natural progression from
robo advisors, right? I mean, just— it's a different
algorithm. That's what it is. So
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it's going to have to be subject
to similar, though not identical regulations, as we already see
in the FinTech space.
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How much do you think, in terms
of the education piece, that you've seen it— has it benefited
your students?
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So it depends. For data science-
related financial applications, when I teach my Data Science for
Finance course, it's hugely
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helpful, because it just— it
almost— almost completely eliminates the technical burden
in terms of programming and
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working with data. It's made
things so much more efficient. On the banking and personal
finance side, it's a little less
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helpful, again, because it
struggles with broad, sort of almost open-ended questions. It
varies based on application at
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this point.
- Anything that really surprised you about
kind of your interaction with
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ChatGPT AI, as you've kind of
used it the last couple of years? Yeah. Sometimes it gives
impressively insightful
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responses. In fact, it actually—
it found an error in one of the financial literacy exams, which
I thought was really impressive.
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On the other hand, it also
impresses me in terms of some of the silly mistakes it makes. So
that sort of volatility, that
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needs to be worked out. And I'm
sure it will be as it learns through more interaction and
data.
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Michael, great to talk with you.
Thanks very much for joining us here today. - Thank you. - You
got it. Michael Roberts, Finance
00:12:09
Professor here at the Wharton
School. Thank you for listening to The Ripple Effect. We hope
you found this episode
00:12:14
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00:12:21
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