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hello my name is stephanie creary and
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i'm an assistant professor of management
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at the wharton school university of
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pennsylvania and i'm
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very honored to have today here with us
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dr rohini anand
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who is currently senior diversity equity
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and inclusion advisor
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and former senior vice president of
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corporate responsibility and global
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chief diversity officer at sodexo
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thank you so much for joining me here
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today ravini i'm so happy to have you
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with us
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wonderful to be with you dr cleary just
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really delighted to be part of this
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conversation
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so what many people don't know is you
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and i actually know each other
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pretty well and our history goes back to
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2008. in 2008 i was
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both a research associate at harvard
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business school and also a research
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associate at the conference board in new
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york city
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in new york city studying uh companies
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global
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chief global diversity and inclusion
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strategies and so
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you were somebody who had both been a
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presenter and an expert at the
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conference board
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sharing with your colleagues some of the
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good work that you all were doing at
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sodexo particularly
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as you wanted to uh think about um
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broadening your scope
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from u.s domestic focused diversity
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strategies to global focused strategies
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but then also um you were somebody who
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uh we had um at the time my my the
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professor i've been working for
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professor david thomas who's now
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president of morehouse college
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we've been doing a body of work that was
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focused on trying to understand how
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companies like yours were trying to
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scale
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these u.s strategies more globally
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and so one of the things that happened
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at that time and around the 2008-2009
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period we started interviewing you
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and many of your colleagues at sodexo
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who had been
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doing some of the work in the us and
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certainly were focused
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um on the global strategy but where i
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wanted to start today
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was to talk a little bit about some of
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the early work that you did at sodexo
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because i think so much of that
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is related to uh the the experiences
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that many of us are having now
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um personally in our experience in our
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companies around
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racial justice but before we get there i
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want to
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note to everybody that um rohini
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and her ceo and her company they were
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kind enough to sign
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off on a wonderful harvard business
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school case study
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it's called shifting the diversity
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climate sodexo solution so you could
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read more about
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the extensive work that rohini and her
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colleagues did between the years of
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1999 and 2010. we'll just preview a
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little bit of that here
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before we lapse into a conversation
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about the current time sound good rohini
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sounds wonderful stephanie great okay so
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let me take us
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back to around early 2000
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2000 2001 and at that time
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michelle landell was president and ceo
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of sodexo north america correct
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right okay and he had recently hired his
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have he referred to his good friend ali
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lawrence
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uh to be sodexo's north america chief
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human resources
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officer and one of the things that
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really struck me when i had interviewed
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michelle
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way back when was he talked about this
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friendship that he had with
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ollie lawrence who described himself as
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an african-american male
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michelle andell was was uh belgium i
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believe
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no he's french he's french he is friends
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so michelle ondell was french and so he
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talked about
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some of his early learnings about racial
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equity and racial inequity came from
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this
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friendship that he had with ollie
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lawrence
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um and so it was really for him
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uh quite an emotional experience when in
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2001
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your company sodexo um
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was notified that a class action lawsuit
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had been filed in dc against sodexo
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which was called
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then called sodexo marriott services so
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i'm going to turn it over to you to talk
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a little bit about
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that um time period for the company
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and then you came in shortly thereafter
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so can you give us a little bit of a
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a reflection on what that felt like i
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know we're reflecting back
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uh 19 years but certainly i'm sure it
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was a very uh remarkable period in your
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career
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yeah so i actually thanks a lot i think
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that's that context is actually
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wonderful and really very relevant to
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what's happening today
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in the world around us for multiple
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reasons but i joined sodexo in 2002
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and about six months after i joined
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the lawsuit was certified as a class
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action and we ultimately did settle
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in 2005 and there was a five-year
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consent decree after that
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but i would say that you know was a a
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discrimination lawsuit filed by
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african-american managers it was a
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promotion discrimination law stood
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and that certainly was a very painful
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time in the company's history
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but it was also a time of incredible
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learning
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incredible growth and i think
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much of this had to do with the
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leadership so with michelle
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and you know you're absolutely right i
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think this
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you know so it was his sort of personal
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transformation
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that brought him to an understanding
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somewhat of an understanding of race
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relations
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in the us i don't think that he will or
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anyone will say that you know he
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fully understood it but i will say that
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he began his journey
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and his friendship with ali and the
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experiences that ali shared and that
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michelle you know being
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the sort of humble leader that he is was
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able to listen
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and to learn and to internalize some of
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those messages really helped in his
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growth
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so you know michelle actually grew up in
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um
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he was born in morocco he lived in
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africa for many years was you know
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leading the business in africa
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but had a very very different
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understanding of race
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outside of the united states and i think
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that different understanding of race
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continues even today
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with what you know we see happening in
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europe and france etc
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we can you know get more into that but
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that particular time period you know i
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think
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was it was an opportunity it provided a
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springboard it was a burning platform
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but i have to say that the organization
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could have just sort of stopped and said
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let's do these 10 things that we're
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required to do and we're done with it
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but i along the way i think that there
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were enough leaders enough of a critical
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mass
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that had begun to sort of personally
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engage in the topic
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that they and and reflect on the topic
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and they actually
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helped to change the culture within
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sodexo so it was
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a transformation a cultural
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transformation a systemic
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change to the organization processes
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policies systems individual behaviors
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and actions
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that ultimately impacted sort of this
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cultural transformation
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and you know i mean i suppose the proof
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is in the pudding in terms of
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you know the what it is today in terms
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of representation
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in terms of you know behaviors in terms
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of
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you know what our surveys say about how
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african-american employees
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feel about being at sodexo but also the
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named plaintiff in that lawsuit
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continued to stay at sodexo
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and you know i mean she says that i
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would not
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have if if this you know culture had not
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changed transformed the way it had
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so you know i think it was it was
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difficult
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but i do think that it positioned
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diversity equity and inclusion
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in a way that began it became an enabler
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for the business but also an enabler for
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changing the culture and the
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organization
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and you know clearly it had to be led
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from the top
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the leadership had to be completely
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committed
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and it wasn't like they kind of you know
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suddenly woke up and understood what
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you know what the issues were or what
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the african-american employees were
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going through
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it was a process and you know i can talk
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a bit about that process but it was a
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journey for each and every one of those
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leaders
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so we'll get back to some of the
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specific uh
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policies and systems that you put in
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place
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when i when we set ourself in the
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current time because i know so many
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individuals or leaders are interested in
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so when we're talking about systemic
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racism
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what do we mean by systems and how do we
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change it so i'm going to give you the
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opportunity in a little bit to
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reflect on the some of the specific two
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to three things you did and then
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do would you still do those things now
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but before we go there
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i want to actually bring up something
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else that i've been thinking about a lot
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lately as i said i've been thinking a
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lot about
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about your case actually watching the
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world
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unfold around us because i remember
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all of the work that it took for
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sodexo and for you and michelle to gain
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traction on
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talking about diversity in france in
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getting
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people outside of the united states to
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believe that diversity
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was not just a u.s thing that it was
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something that was meaningful
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in their own culture and so i will never
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forget
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uh this idea that uh for so many people
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around the world when you tried to talk
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about diversity it was that's a u.s
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thing that's not necessarily our thing
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and i look
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today there are a protest rohini in
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france there are protests in london
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there are protests
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all around the world in many of these
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jurisdictions where i know you and your
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colleagues at other organizations
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had a very hard time getting them to
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believe that diversity affected them as
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well so could you reflect a little bit
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on
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perhaps that journey the work that you
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had to do and maybe what you're thinking
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now is you're seeing all these countries
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embrace a black lives matter movement
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and certainly making it their own with
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respect to their own cultures and
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ethnicities
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yeah so i think that's i mean i think
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that's i've been thinking a lot about
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that and i
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and you know when we started this work
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when we started the global work you're
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right
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it was incredibly challenging and
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particularly
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challenging in europe where you know you
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you're not allowed because of data
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privacy issues to collect data on race
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or ethnicity
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but apart from that the word diversity
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the word well more so the word race or
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ethnicity does not translate
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within the context of many european
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countries
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where individuals are identified by
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their individual experiences so as an
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immigrant or of a particular nationality
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versus being identified by a collective
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identity
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as belonging to a particular ethnic
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group
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so given that there's no data
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on representation of how many you know
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black people there are for instance in
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the organization
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there is no acceptance around
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talking about these issues because they
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would you know say that
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this is a us issue we don't have race
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issues in this in our country
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and i remember clearly when they had the
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um
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youths riots and demonstrations
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around in in the um in the suburbs of
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of paris and you know with those
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demonstrations and
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when i pointed that out you know they
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would just sort of dismiss that as you
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know this is
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it's it has nothing to do with race it
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has nothing to do with color
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um it's all about culture as you know
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the french would say
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you know if you're the right do you have
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the right culture you're french or
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you're not friends so
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it's sort of um you know just the whole
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category of race and ethnicity does not
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translate in many parts of europe in
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fact
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and i believe it was it's in sweden
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where the word
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for race actually is synonymous with the
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word for discrimination
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wow so so i mean that that's a challenge
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and you're you know so we did you know
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we use many different
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ways to unpack that but i will say
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they're not that many organizations
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stephanie that actually
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do go deep in addressing issues of race
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in many countries like in in europe in
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particular because of data issues
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uk yes but not elsewhere
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now if we fast forward to today and and
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so
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yeah they saw me and i think i shared
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this in the case study that when i
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you know when they talk to me right
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there's they
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the europeans and particularly the
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french they talk to me
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they saw me as as indian because i am of
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indian origin
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and they embraced me and they shared all
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kinds of things some some stuff which
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was not very complementary to americans
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but when it came to issues of diversity
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they their god went down and they saw me
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as american and this was you know this
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is just a u.s thing
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you know it's irrelevant in our country
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you know see him
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and the other the interesting thing is
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there's a lot more inter marriage
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in in parts of europe in france for
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instance
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between blacks and whites so that
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becomes sort of a data point for them to
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talk about the fact that you know
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it's an integrated society right right
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so fast forward to today to be honest
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i have a lot of hope for what's to come
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in the u.s
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yeah i think just looking at the
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demographics
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of the demonstrators um and the allies
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that are there
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and the young generation i'm very
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hopeful right
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now not the same
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globally it is a movement i think there
00:14:07
are people that are demonstrating
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you know in part in all parts of europe
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for instance
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but i'm not sure that that's being
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translated
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within organizations i think there's
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still compartmentalization
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between public and private
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you know they're doing this you know
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demonstration on the street
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but as far as we're concerned you know
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as an organization so i'm not sure
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how and what's going to change that it
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has to change because it is going to
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spill over into
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into you know organizations but i'm
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i'm watching to see you know how
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organizations start now addressing
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issues of of color race you know
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underrepresented populations within
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their organizations but
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um it's really helpful to hear and i
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know the points that you're making
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around data
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privacy it's as a researcher this is not
00:15:01
um an area doing research in europe is
00:15:05
is not easy uh particularly as somebody
00:15:08
who studies diversity and inclusion
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i'm just not going to get the data that
00:15:12
i want to get i can
00:15:13
certainly get data on gender but the
00:15:16
issues
00:15:17
that i'm interested in aren't always
00:15:19
about gender right right
00:15:20
and so i think about even now as we're
00:15:23
obviously
00:15:23
living under the the other pandemic all
00:15:26
right so not just the racism pandemic
00:15:27
but certainly the coronavirus pandemic
00:15:30
um i've seen a number of papers put out
00:15:33
in the uk where they're
00:15:34
uh i they refer b-a-m-e i'm not sure
00:15:41
is the acronym for black asian and
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minority
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ethnic i believe right yeah individuals
00:15:48
in society in the uk and so i see
00:15:50
in the uk um you know papers that are
00:15:53
suggesting that there's inequity in
00:15:55
terms of who has to work and who's being
00:15:57
negatively affected by the disease
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right so i think in the uk their census
00:16:02
i think comes out if i'm not mistaken
00:16:03
next year they're going to have their
00:16:05
next census
00:16:06
and the predictions are that you know
00:16:08
about 20 to 25 of the
00:16:10
percent of the population is going to be
00:16:11
identified as being
00:16:13
which is a massive number right
00:16:16
in in the uk organizations are
00:16:19
definitely addressing these issues
00:16:21
in fact i was talking to an organization
00:16:23
today which is you know
00:16:25
350-year uk-based organization
00:16:29
and they were talking about how they're
00:16:32
having these
00:16:33
you know town halls with the ceo on race
00:16:38
and then asking each of their leaders in
00:16:40
each of their lines of business to have
00:16:42
these conversations as well
00:16:43
right so and they're not jumping to
00:16:46
action
00:16:47
they're doing these listening sessions
00:16:49
so they really want to hear
00:16:51
people's experiences and be able to
00:16:53
internalize them
00:16:54
so i'm thinking that you know i mean
00:16:56
it's picking up there now
00:16:58
sodexo um i know that this morning one
00:17:01
of the leaders was actually doing a
00:17:03
listening session
00:17:04
talking about issues of race and you
00:17:06
know they've had
00:17:08
you know several anti-racism webinars
00:17:12
history of race in the us leaders
00:17:15
talking about
00:17:15
making themselves vulnerable and talking
00:17:17
about their own blind spots i
00:17:19
you know organizations are beginning to
00:17:21
have these conversations
00:17:24
globally as well but i don't think in
00:17:27
you know all parts of the world i think
00:17:29
we still have a ways to go there okay
00:17:32
so excellent so let's talk a bit about
00:17:35
the work that has been done
00:17:38
needs to be done i will tell you i've
00:17:40
taken a very crude cut
00:17:43
of organizations when people who have
00:17:45
interviewed me have said you know is
00:17:47
this
00:17:47
is it are these statements these ceo
00:17:49
statements going to work
00:17:50
is diversity training going to work and
00:17:52
you may not agree with my categories
00:17:54
and certainly we can leave this open for
00:17:56
discussion but i've given three
00:17:57
categories of of companies
00:18:00
um i will call the first group the
00:18:02
veterans
00:18:03
expo that's a company that for decades
00:18:06
has had
00:18:07
policies and practices in place to not
00:18:09
only just
00:18:10
manage diversity broadly but also
00:18:12
specific to
00:18:13
issues around race and culture and
00:18:15
ethnicity i call those the veterans
00:18:18
the the second group i refer to as
00:18:21
the aspirants right those are the
00:18:24
uh companies that perhaps in the last
00:18:26
decade or so
00:18:28
have started to have a conversation
00:18:30
about diversity
00:18:31
much of that conversation might be about
00:18:34
gender
00:18:34
um i think of a lot of the tech
00:18:36
companies in silicon valley that's where
00:18:38
they started and certainly it was
00:18:40
because there was
00:18:40
heightened attention to gender uh
00:18:42
discrimination and sexual harassment
00:18:45
um and in the last group i talked about
00:18:47
these as the sideliners
00:18:49
right and the sideliners are the the
00:18:52
companies that are
00:18:53
really maybe tiptoeing around a
00:18:56
conversation
00:18:57
about diversity and inclusion uh some
00:19:00
are paying attention
00:19:02
um some are less aware um
00:19:05
and i think when i think about all these
00:19:07
companies that have put out these
00:19:08
statements around black
00:19:10
lives matter and let's get rid of
00:19:11
systemic uh
00:19:13
injustice i've seen companies that fall
00:19:15
into each of those three categories put
00:19:17
out these statements what was the second
00:19:19
what was the same the aspirants like
00:19:21
aspiring
00:19:23
yeah so i call the veterans the
00:19:25
aspirants and the sideliners like people
00:19:27
who are sitting on the sideline just
00:19:28
watching everybody else play the game
00:19:30
i'm most hopeful about the veterans i'm
00:19:33
most hopeful about companies like sodexo
00:19:35
and your capacity that your conformer
00:19:37
company's capacity
00:19:38
to actually begin to create structures
00:19:41
and policies and effect change
00:19:43
i'm not as i'm not as hopeful about the
00:19:47
sideliners who haven't maybe
00:19:49
they have a diversity officer maybe they
00:19:50
don't have a diversity officer maybe if
00:19:52
they have a diversity officer the
00:19:53
diversity officer has no resources
00:19:55
so that said can you talk a little bit
00:19:58
about
00:19:58
um
00:20:02
where does one company start if it
00:20:05
certainly does not have a lot of a huge
00:20:08
platform around diversity inclusion
00:20:10
where would they start
00:20:11
and then let's talk about the companies
00:20:13
that have already been doing the work
00:20:15
maybe the veterans if we take those two
00:20:16
questions
00:20:17
what do they need to do from your
00:20:19
perspective so i think if you talk about
00:20:21
the
00:20:22
the aspirants right so those are you
00:20:24
know either
00:20:25
just starting or i think there is a
00:20:28
burning platform stephanie i mean this
00:20:30
is the burning platform
00:20:32
i mean i don't think that folks can be
00:20:34
your sideliners anymore i just you know
00:20:37
it's just not
00:20:38
in this day and age in this country in
00:20:41
particular
00:20:42
um i you know i just don't think they
00:20:44
can afford to be so i think it's the
00:20:46
aspirants that are stepping up and i'm
00:20:48
seeing so i'm getting a lot of calls you
00:20:51
know leaders ceos struggling
00:20:54
i mean people saying to me
00:20:57
you know i had heard these stories
00:21:00
but i'm just beginning to realize what
00:21:03
my privilege looks like now you know
00:21:06
i'm not sure where they've been but um
00:21:09
but you know at least there is some
00:21:11
realization that that
00:21:13
you know something that's kind of work
00:21:15
in them that they're beginning to kind
00:21:17
of
00:21:17
you know get the messages right um
00:21:20
so i you know to me it really
00:21:24
in terms of so that to me is a burning
00:21:25
platform in terms of starting
00:21:27
i do think the starting point needs to
00:21:30
be to call out an address race
00:21:32
now even companies like sodexo that did
00:21:35
a lot of work
00:21:37
over over the years there's always been
00:21:41
this kind of reluctance to call out race
00:21:43
right so it's always been
00:21:46
you know diversity it's about everyone
00:21:49
you know
00:21:49
let's not leave anyone behind we talk
00:21:52
about belonging we talk about inclusion
00:21:54
which is great because that's the end
00:21:56
goal
00:21:57
but in order to get there you've got to
00:22:00
you know you've got to
00:22:00
you know cause paid is paid i mean there
00:22:02
are issues of institutional racism
00:22:06
i think that this movement is providing
00:22:08
the platform to actually
00:22:11
name it what it is and address it for
00:22:14
what it is
00:22:15
rather than wrap it in this pretty
00:22:17
wrapper
00:22:18
that becomes sort of palatable
00:22:21
to you know to the privileged and
00:22:24
palatable to the
00:22:26
you know dominant group and you know the
00:22:28
oppressors so i think it's
00:22:29
it's i think for the first so i think
00:22:31
it's really the starting point is really
00:22:34
to to acknowledge
00:22:35
that there is an issue and let's just
00:22:38
have a dialogue about race
00:22:39
and even veterans have not really done
00:22:42
that in the same way
00:22:44
we've sort of come to it in a different
00:22:46
way
00:22:48
and along the way kind of had the
00:22:50
conversations about race but now is the
00:22:52
time to just
00:22:52
put it on the table have the
00:22:54
conversation have listening sessions
00:22:57
you know without jumping to immediate
00:22:59
action because part of this is just you
00:23:01
know
00:23:02
you know being able to hold the space
00:23:04
for some safe dialogue
00:23:06
and to be able to listen and then from
00:23:08
there
00:23:09
so that to me that's the starting point
00:23:11
you know to do that and raise the
00:23:12
awareness within your organization
00:23:15
um about issues of race so broad
00:23:18
you know not just about trainings but
00:23:20
you know have the you know
00:23:22
listening sessions and be able to talk
00:23:23
about it have facilitated dialogue
00:23:26
on the topic and then from there i would
00:23:28
say you know moving on to
00:23:31
you come putting in place the
00:23:32
initiatives that need to
00:23:34
to you know occur in the employee life
00:23:37
cycle
00:23:38
to ensure that bias conscious and
00:23:42
unconscious is not just unconscious it's
00:23:44
both conscious and unconscious bias
00:23:47
do not you know impact employee
00:23:49
decisions
00:23:50
so you know at every point of the life
00:23:52
cycle of recruiting
00:23:55
can you give a couple of examples at
00:23:56
recruiting and promotion for example i
00:23:58
think people are generally interested in
00:24:00
those sure
00:24:01
yeah yeah absolutely so i think if you
00:24:04
unpack the whole sort of recruiting
00:24:06
process
00:24:07
right it goes from you know sourcing
00:24:11
to your phone screening or resume
00:24:13
screening phone screening
00:24:15
you know forwarding on the resumes by
00:24:17
the recruiters to the hiring manager and
00:24:20
the final hiring decision
00:24:22
and i think every single step in that
00:24:24
process needs to be examined
00:24:26
for bias and mitigated by putting in
00:24:30
place
00:24:30
initiatives to to not allow that bias to
00:24:33
seep into decisions so what that looks
00:24:35
like
00:24:36
is maybe incentives for recruiters
00:24:39
first of all targets for recruiters to
00:24:41
say you have to present a diverse
00:24:43
candidate slate to the hiring manager
00:24:44
because a hiring manager can't
00:24:46
hire um unless there's a diverse
00:24:48
candidate slate so to
00:24:50
to have that as a target 50 of your
00:24:52
slate has to be women and or minorities
00:24:54
however you define that within your
00:24:56
context
00:24:57
um and then putting some accountability
00:25:00
around it because just having the
00:25:02
targets is not enough
00:25:03
the recruiters have to have
00:25:05
accountability and a part of their
00:25:07
uh variable compensation should be
00:25:10
linked to that account to those targets
00:25:12
so that you know
00:25:13
we're clear that we are presenting a
00:25:15
qualified diverse candidate slate to the
00:25:17
hiring manager
00:25:19
um i then think that you know it as i
00:25:22
said each point needs to be examined but
00:25:24
one of the other things that
00:25:25
you know we've done is for the hiring
00:25:27
manager
00:25:28
to provide you know unconscious bias
00:25:30
training to recruiters and
00:25:32
hiring managers now unconscious bias
00:25:34
training it's in itself
00:25:36
is not that effective but i do think
00:25:38
it's
00:25:39
one tool to raise awareness along with
00:25:42
other
00:25:42
processes and policies so that
00:25:46
you know you can mitigate bias so i
00:25:48
think it
00:25:49
you know it's a holistic approach to it
00:25:52
but
00:25:52
for the hiring manager for instance
00:25:55
having some
00:25:56
you know targets there in terms of and
00:25:58
scrutinizing the hiring decision so at
00:26:00
sodexo we actually had a review panel
00:26:02
and the review panel looked at every
00:26:04
hiring decision
00:26:05
looked at who were the candidates that
00:26:07
were sourced what was the candidate
00:26:09
slate that was
00:26:10
you know who were the finalists
00:26:12
forwarded what was the candidate slate
00:26:15
and then who did the hiring manager hire
00:26:18
and
00:26:18
really scrutinizes that whole process so
00:26:21
it's not just the hiring manager
00:26:23
and also having a diverse uh interview
00:26:26
panel
00:26:26
so i would say you know targets and
00:26:28
incentives for recruiters
00:26:30
um diverse recruiting interview panel
00:26:34
targets for hiring managers and we
00:26:37
actually you know at sodexo many
00:26:38
companies do this
00:26:40
link you know those targets to
00:26:43
um incentive compensation to variable
00:26:46
compensation which we did as well
00:26:48
globally sodexo had a target of you know
00:26:51
all
00:26:52
candidate slates for certain senior
00:26:53
level positions had to have fifty
00:26:55
percent women
00:26:57
the whole man yeah fifty percent women
00:27:00
in the candidate's slave
00:27:01
yeah the candidates late that's the
00:27:03
thing so
00:27:04
forty and so the target was 40 women by
00:27:07
20
00:27:08
25. um and i last i saw
00:27:12
was in senior leadership ranks was that
00:27:14
34
00:27:15
so you know inching up there so i think
00:27:17
that's sort of in the in the recruiting
00:27:19
bucket
00:27:20
in the promotion i think it's the same
00:27:22
thing i think you know i mean
00:27:23
looking at using a dni lens to look at
00:27:27
succession planning discussions to look
00:27:30
at you know i mean
00:27:32
i think all too often these discussions
00:27:34
happen in a vacuum or
00:27:35
unconscious bias comes into the
00:27:38
discussion but
00:27:39
also having objectives for so for
00:27:41
instance globally at sodexo the senior
00:27:43
executives
00:27:44
have a target of um ensuring that a
00:27:47
certain
00:27:48
percentage of their successors are women
00:27:51
or other in underrepresented groups
00:27:53
so you know ensuring that managers are
00:27:56
held accountable for developing that
00:27:58
talent for retaining that talent
00:28:01
and then putting in place initiatives to
00:28:04
advance
00:28:05
you know women and other
00:28:06
underrepresented groups so you know
00:28:08
women and minorities in the us
00:28:11
is it's not about fixing
00:28:14
you know minorities are fixing women
00:28:16
it's not that they necessarily need more
00:28:19
skills
00:28:20
it is about making them visible to the
00:28:23
organization
00:28:24
it is about getting them you know
00:28:27
sponsors and mentors
00:28:29
so that they can you know the
00:28:30
organization can see this talent and has
00:28:33
someone advocating for them
00:28:34
you know for decades we've had men
00:28:38
who've informally sponsored other men
00:28:41
for instance you know in a very
00:28:43
um so i think you know it we just need
00:28:45
to formalize
00:28:47
these initiatives to kind of make sure
00:28:49
that everyone has access
00:28:51
to sponsors or mentors so those would be
00:28:54
some of the initiatives
00:28:56
yeah i'm now going to ask you the
00:28:58
question that i'm asked most frequently
00:29:01
and i am certain you have been answered
00:29:03
this asked this question frequently
00:29:05
and that is what role does merit play
00:29:08
of this conversation so when we start
00:29:11
talking about
00:29:12
making people visible and diverse
00:29:14
meaning inclusion
00:29:15
is that a conversation that's aside from
00:29:17
a conversation about merit do we just
00:29:19
sort of throw that out the window or how
00:29:21
do you relate these two
00:29:22
ideologies if at all yeah i think i mean
00:29:26
that's a
00:29:27
that's always an interesting
00:29:28
conversation right
00:29:30
so at the end of the day and this is
00:29:32
where it's sort of a
00:29:34
you know important distinction and sort
00:29:37
of a tricky one
00:29:38
because at the end of the day we want to
00:29:40
hire the best qualified candidate
00:29:43
that's really the ultimate goal but the
00:29:46
way i look at it is if you have two
00:29:48
candidates
00:29:50
and the two candidates each have
00:29:53
ninety percent um you know in terms of
00:29:56
this is the threshold is ninety percent
00:29:59
each of the two candidates has ninety
00:30:01
percent of whatever is needed
00:30:03
one is a male the other is a female
00:30:06
then you start looking at those things
00:30:08
that differentiate the two candidates
00:30:11
and one of the things in favor of the
00:30:13
woman is
00:30:14
you don't have that many women in your
00:30:16
organization or your team
00:30:18
you know you need that diversity of
00:30:20
thought within the organization
00:30:22
in order to be the best organization
00:30:25
most productive
00:30:26
so you give a certain additional weight
00:30:29
to that woman we're not talking about
00:30:31
you know anything that is sort of that
00:30:34
she's not
00:30:35
qualified it's it has nothing to do it's
00:30:37
basically looking at that threshold
00:30:39
of uh you know of
00:30:42
qualifications and so so i see it i mean
00:30:45
i don't see the two
00:30:47
being at odds with each other
00:30:50
uh so so many companies right now
00:30:54
have big plans aspirational and if i can
00:30:57
just stephanie can i just
00:30:58
add one more thing to that it also
00:31:01
depends on how you define as what the
00:31:04
criteria are for a position
00:31:06
right yeah and the criteria for a
00:31:08
position
00:31:09
includes you know my life experiences so
00:31:12
let's not
00:31:13
change that so right right
00:31:17
absolutely um so
00:31:20
so many companies i was just talking to
00:31:22
a chief diversity officer the other day
00:31:24
she's been in her company for two
00:31:26
decades and she has gotten a number of
00:31:28
cold calls from a lot of companies that
00:31:29
are looking to steal her away because
00:31:31
apparently
00:31:32
blephara chiefs diversity i'm sure
00:31:34
they're trying to pull you out of
00:31:35
uh what do you i think you're referring
00:31:37
to i'm not retirement that's my
00:31:39
retirement
00:31:40
so there are all these open positions
00:31:42
for division
00:31:44
what's the value of a diversity officer
00:31:47
or what's the potential value that a
00:31:49
diversity leader
00:31:51
could bring uh to the company i think we
00:31:53
all realize you can't just take one
00:31:55
person and make them the figurehead
00:31:57
and and and leave it at that but what
00:31:59
can we
00:32:00
be hopeful for that a chief diversity
00:32:02
officer might bring to the table
00:32:04
that might help us uh to move forward as
00:32:06
a company broadly on diversity
00:32:08
uh broadly on issues of diversity
00:32:10
inclusion but i think also on issues of
00:32:12
racial injustice and racial equity yeah
00:32:15
so i think you know i mean
00:32:17
so this almost relates back to the
00:32:18
question you asked about what veteran
00:32:20
companies can do
00:32:21
right and one of the things that
00:32:23
concerns me stephanie is that
00:32:26
as companies start changing their
00:32:28
cultures um and become more inclusive
00:32:31
you know or see themselves as more
00:32:34
inclusive
00:32:35
they start feeling that now you know
00:32:37
diversity is part of our dna
00:32:39
we can integrate it into everything we
00:32:41
we do
00:32:42
and we don't need to really call it out
00:32:45
so we don't need
00:32:46
you know performance objective around
00:32:48
diversity we don't need somebody
00:32:50
you know responsible for diversity and i
00:32:52
think that's a really slippery slope
00:32:54
because just as easily as
00:32:56
you know you gain this traction you can
00:32:58
lose it so i think it
00:33:00
gives a false sense of you know sort of
00:33:02
comfort to say that
00:33:04
now it's part of our dna and integrated
00:33:06
and i mean i i think you really have to
00:33:08
examine yourself and make sure
00:33:10
that that is actually the case so
00:33:13
having said that i think there is you
00:33:16
know not just today i think there's
00:33:17
tremendous value
00:33:19
to a chief diversity officer really
00:33:21
being able to engage a cultural
00:33:24
transformation in the organization it's
00:33:26
somebody who
00:33:27
you know has this lens that they bring
00:33:30
to the conversation
00:33:32
that you know others may not see now we
00:33:34
talk about white privilege
00:33:36
and you know folks are saying well i
00:33:38
really didn't ever know
00:33:39
right so the role of the chief diversity
00:33:42
officer
00:33:42
is to you know to be that person that
00:33:45
you know calls out some of these things
00:33:47
um and you know basically is sort of you
00:33:52
know
00:33:53
um spurs the organization on to take
00:33:57
action now
00:33:58
is it entirely the role of the chief
00:33:59
diversity officer obviously not i think
00:34:01
the role of the chief diversity officer
00:34:04
is to strategically seed allies to
00:34:07
change people's mindsets so it's not
00:34:09
coming from his or her
00:34:11
or their voice but is coming you know
00:34:14
from
00:34:15
change agents within the organization
00:34:18
you know i think that there is
00:34:21
you know today of course there's
00:34:22
tremendous tremendous
00:34:24
value and importance but it's not just a
00:34:27
symbolic thing
00:34:29
i think there's true value to the
00:34:31
business and and i'll say that you know
00:34:34
you know michelle hired me right in 2002
00:34:37
and you know he took quotes and quotes a
00:34:39
bit of a risk because this was an
00:34:41
african-american
00:34:43
uh a lawsuit filed by african-american
00:34:45
managers i'm not african-american
00:34:48
um you know and so to hire somebody
00:34:52
that they may not identify as being an
00:34:55
ally to them was a big risk
00:34:57
that that he took um so
00:35:01
i mean i think that it doesn't matter
00:35:04
what the
00:35:05
race or gender is of the person but i
00:35:07
think what is
00:35:08
really important is the ability to
00:35:10
listen
00:35:12
to make yourself vulnerable to build
00:35:14
these strong partnerships
00:35:16
and to not believe that you know when
00:35:18
you know you know everything because
00:35:21
um you know i think it's important to to
00:35:23
be able to hold the space for the voice
00:35:25
of employees
00:35:26
so um i don't know did i answer your
00:35:29
question in terms of the value
00:35:33
yeah i would just say that beyond just
00:35:36
the current situation and what's
00:35:38
you know happening in terms of black
00:35:40
lives matter and addressing issues of
00:35:42
race which i think is critical
00:35:44
i think there's also this huge benefit
00:35:46
that the business can have
00:35:48
you know so there's a massive benefit to
00:35:50
the business and the brand
00:35:52
if it's done right and and we know that
00:35:54
you know addressing issues in the
00:35:56
community
00:35:57
is absolutely you know it's about
00:35:59
purpose-driven leadership today so it
00:36:01
has to be
00:36:01
no one has to sorry go ahead so now if i
00:36:05
might add
00:36:05
um i think it's really important that
00:36:08
companies show the value for diversity
00:36:12
by ensuring that diversity leaders chief
00:36:14
diversity officers have
00:36:16
budgets because they're supposed to be
00:36:18
accessing
00:36:19
allies and many of them are outside i
00:36:22
get contacted all the time
00:36:24
by companies who want me to give a talk
00:36:27
or want me to get on some
00:36:28
external counsel they need the resources
00:36:31
in order to do this work and many don't
00:36:34
have them at all and they're being asked
00:36:36
to
00:36:37
i think take on a huge
00:36:40
issue without sufficient resources so
00:36:42
i'm going to add that to the
00:36:44
conversation
00:36:45
absolutely sure they have a substantial
00:36:47
budget
00:36:48
that matches the ask of them
00:36:51
i think sometimes we just don't treat uh
00:36:53
the diversity office like a business
00:36:56
unit in business union budgets to
00:36:58
function and i think we certainly need
00:36:59
more of that
00:37:00
what would you do and the positioning i
00:37:02
would agree and the positioning
00:37:04
too stephanie you know where this
00:37:06
position reports to
00:37:07
you know to have somebody in that role
00:37:10
reporting you know like
00:37:12
five levels down from the ceo i mean
00:37:14
just it makes no sense because this is a
00:37:16
strategic role it's a role of
00:37:18
influencing
00:37:19
it's a role of partnering with leaders
00:37:21
and it needs to be positioned as such
00:37:24
because otherwise it you know it's not
00:37:27
effective
00:37:28
so here's my last question and it's
00:37:31
certainly a selfish one
00:37:33
um uh so i have spent the last 14 years
00:37:36
really trying to understand corporate
00:37:38
diversity and inclusion initiatives and
00:37:40
so if anybody asks me a question around
00:37:42
what should companies do
00:37:44
i can lay out um i can lay out a lot of
00:37:48
ideas because i've been blessed to have
00:37:50
people like you on my side willing to
00:37:52
open your
00:37:53
brains and your insights up to my
00:37:56
curiosity
00:37:57
um what's interesting is all the work
00:38:00
that educational institutions are trying
00:38:02
to do
00:38:02
so i think of my own institution i think
00:38:05
of academia as a whole
00:38:07
um certainly we have a very there's a
00:38:10
different model in academia we have a
00:38:12
you know governance structures where
00:38:15
faculty
00:38:15
have a lot of a say in terms of what
00:38:18
happens
00:38:19
but we also have an administrative
00:38:21
structure and a student culture and
00:38:22
student life and students who
00:38:24
really want to be in an environment
00:38:26
where they're
00:38:27
they have the same advantages that
00:38:29
employees have
00:38:31
um can you do you have any
00:38:33
recommendations
00:38:35
uh to educational institutions
00:38:37
universities and colleges as they're
00:38:39
trying to also
00:38:41
broaden their uh expertise and their
00:38:44
platforms around uh
00:38:46
diversity inclusion systemic racism what
00:38:49
are you what are your thoughts on this
00:38:50
yeah i think that's a really important
00:38:53
question you said there's a real
00:38:54
plethora of chief diversity officers and
00:38:56
what i'm seeing is a lot of education
00:38:59
institutions
00:39:00
hiring chief diversity officers i think
00:39:02
there was an announcement recently
00:39:04
harvard finally hired a chief diversity
00:39:06
officer
00:39:07
so i think there's you know a lot of
00:39:09
educational institutions that are
00:39:11
realizing that
00:39:12
they too need to you know address
00:39:16
this topic in a more sort of
00:39:20
you know sort of organized consist
00:39:25
systemic kind of manner and that
00:39:27
somebody responsible for it might help
00:39:30
to get them there and you know many of
00:39:32
them are reporting to the president for
00:39:34
instance
00:39:35
of the institution so i mean i i think
00:39:39
you know again this is
00:39:40
it is it's a it has to be a systemic
00:39:43
solution it has to be holistic
00:39:45
it has to you know i think education
00:39:48
institutions have to address it at
00:39:49
multiple levels obviously in curriculum
00:39:52
to make sure that that lens is in the
00:39:54
curriculum
00:39:55
in role models that are faculty right
00:39:58
and
00:39:58
how many tenured faculty there are that
00:40:01
are faculty of color
00:40:02
versus not so i think that's you know
00:40:04
key piece of it
00:40:06
um i think in the student body but i
00:40:09
think it's sort of it's all
00:40:10
interconnected right so as a student i
00:40:12
mean my kids when they were looking at
00:40:14
at universities i mean they turned down
00:40:17
ivy leagues some
00:40:18
some ivy league schools because they
00:40:19
didn't see a reflection of themselves in
00:40:22
those schools
00:40:23
so that for the millennials i mean
00:40:24
that's an extremely important criteria
00:40:27
today
00:40:28
but you can only get a diverse student
00:40:30
body if you have those role models in
00:40:32
the faculty of their curricula that
00:40:34
reflect their life experiences and
00:40:36
stories
00:40:37
so i think all this kind of you know
00:40:39
knits together
00:40:41
and then of course in the administration
00:40:42
but i think again it's
00:40:44
you know it's a system you know an
00:40:46
academic institution is a system
00:40:48
and it needs to be addressed in a in a
00:40:51
holistic manner
00:40:53
but it does have to be role modeled
00:40:56
and the commitment does have to come
00:40:58
from the top
00:41:00
and i think you know there's different
00:41:01
structures in politics and
00:41:03
in academic institutions but you know i
00:41:07
but i i mean i personally think that the
00:41:09
benefit you know to the brand is
00:41:10
incredible
00:41:12
i mean you have to be known as an
00:41:14
organization
00:41:16
that really holds up that's held up as a
00:41:18
know beacon for
00:41:20
race relations for diversity and
00:41:22
inclusion is going to be a magnet
00:41:24
for future student enrollment it's just
00:41:26
going to happen so
00:41:28
so that's so you know this stuff better
00:41:32
than i do
00:41:35
but it's great coming from you rohini
00:41:37
that's really great coming from you
00:41:40
uh so final words what um would you like
00:41:44
and different people i think are going
00:41:46
to certainly enjoy
00:41:48
hearing uh your perspective certainly
00:41:50
people who
00:41:51
you would consider colleagues people who
00:41:53
are professors at other institutions
00:41:55
my students will be watching this video
00:41:58
um
00:41:59
obviously you know we've talked a lot
00:42:01
about the current times we're
00:42:03
facing i call them as many scholars have
00:42:06
called them two
00:42:06
global pandemics one of covid19 the
00:42:10
coronavirus and the other
00:42:12
called racism and certainly these are
00:42:15
contextual
00:42:16
things that are happening here and now
00:42:17
but i think some of the issues and
00:42:18
challenges we've talked about
00:42:20
transcend the current time um so in
00:42:22
closing i just wanted to give you a
00:42:24
chance to
00:42:25
leave us with what your thoughts are
00:42:27
today
00:42:28
uh maybe they're what your same thoughts
00:42:30
were five years ago
00:42:31
um go ahead yeah so i think i'm more
00:42:34
hopeful today than i have
00:42:36
ever been i'm more hopeful because
00:42:39
of the demographics that i see amongst
00:42:41
the movement
00:42:43
and the demonstrations i'm more hopeful
00:42:46
because
00:42:46
of the young population you know who are
00:42:50
taking a stand and you know for them
00:42:53
this
00:42:53
is about purpose it's about values it's
00:42:56
not just about business case
00:42:58
so i think that's sort of a pivot that
00:42:59
organizations are going to have to make
00:43:01
you know we've all been focused on the
00:43:03
business case and i think the pivot is
00:43:04
going to be
00:43:05
this is you know who we are as part of
00:43:07
our values
00:43:08
so i'm extremely hopeful and i think
00:43:11
that if
00:43:12
we just look at the movement globally
00:43:14
and if we look at who's participating
00:43:16
these are change agents i think everyone
00:43:18
it doesn't
00:43:19
yes it comes to the top but i think it
00:43:21
you know this seed change can happen
00:43:23
at all levels so i'm really hopeful that
00:43:26
you know folks wherever they are will
00:43:29
kind of look within
00:43:30
and see how they've you know the role
00:43:32
that they play in bringing about
00:43:34
some change and addressing racism in
00:43:37
this country and
00:43:38
and more broadly diversity equity and
00:43:40
inclusion globally
00:43:42
excellent well said dr rohini and thank
00:43:45
you again
00:43:46
for allowing me to lean on you whenever
00:43:49
i have been curious and certainly for
00:43:52
your
00:43:53
willingness and your generosity and
00:43:54
sharing your expertise and your insights
00:43:56
with a broader audience thank you so
00:43:58
much for joining us today
00:43:59
thanks doctors created thank you it was
00:44:01
a pleasure bye bye
00:44:06
bye
00:44:09
you
