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Our Guest today is George M tabber
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author of chasing gold George thank you
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so much for joining us today very happy
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to be here so you've written four books
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about wine I think yes and after that
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for the first time you've written a book
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about how the Nazis sold Europe's gold
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how did that come about well it's a
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topic that's been a hobby of mine for
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more years than I would like to admit
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would you believe 50 years I I have been
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interested in the topic
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um and um I thought that it was the more
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I got into it the more I realized nobody
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had actually written the kind of book
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about Nazi gold that I wanted to write
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which was to try to put it in the
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context of how this fed in with the
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whole Nazi war strategy and so I thought
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um it was I thought somebody had to do
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it and why not me so was it is it true
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that it was one of your former editors
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who put you onto the story first yes it
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was uh about 50 years ago I was a young
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freelance writer reporter we call them
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stringers in those days uh for time and
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I was in Brussels and he was in Paris
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and one day I got a call from him this
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was in the N mid 1960s at which time
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gold was really a big topic of
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conversation politically because deal
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was trying to get the the world to go
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back onto a gold standard the United
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States was fighting it and so there was
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a nice all the fun of a Franco American
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fight um and what the boss told me he
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said uh he he said I I picked up this
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story down here in Paris um I don't know
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if it's true or not that during World
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War II the belgians gave their gold to
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the French for safekeeping but then the
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French turned around and gave their gold
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gave that gold to the Nazis after they
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had invaded and he said boy that would
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really make the French look bad once you
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he said why don't you check into and see
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if it's true well I checked into it and
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actually it is true that is exactly what
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happened uh the the I mean you have to
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have a Little Bit of Sympathy for the
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for the French because they were under
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heavy pressure from the Nazis who had
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occupied their country and you know we
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were running everything and so you know
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they they weren't totally free at some
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level this seems like such a huge story
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uh covering the whole of Europe and over
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such a long period of Time how did you
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go about reporting the book well I spent
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an awful lot of time in National
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Archives I spent uh literally weeks I
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had four trips to the German
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archives I went to the Belgian archives
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the French archives the British archives
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uh and in all those places I I usually
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stayed a week uh going through documents
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and some of them were just fantastic uh
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I mean I one of the things when I I I
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saw the various documents in the British
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archives I just couldn't believe what
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they I this because what I found was
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hand these handwritten letters uh by the
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British cabinet in which they were
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taking the decisions to ship all their
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gold this was in June of 1940 so the
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invasion you know they thought they were
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going to be invaded and they
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thought they had to get all of their
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gold across the Atlantic and so they're
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setting up a plan that was going to
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basically and it ended up they they they
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shipped out 3,000 tons of gold gold
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which was more than Ian it wasn't just
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British gold they also were holding gold
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for a lot of uh independent countries uh
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you know who would had sent their gold
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to to Britain in hopes that it would be
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protected and then now they lost you
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know now they got fearful that the BR
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that the French were that the the
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British were going to be run over by the
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Nazis as well so they're can lose it so
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they wanted their gold moved with this
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the British
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gold one of the things I found so
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fascinating about your book is that it
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has these Incredible characters there's
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one person who I may mispronounce his
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name was Helmer hor horis gy shacked who
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exactly was he and what was his role oh
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he was crucial he was the he was a a
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national hero in Germany because he was
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the central Banker who broke the
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inflation that had taken place in in in
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Germany in the 1920s it is consider
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considered by by the experts to either
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be the number one or the number two
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worst inflations in world history the
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the the Reich Reich the mark as it was
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called at that point totally collapsed
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and you know the inflation was just
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crazy and you then what people don't I
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think properly appreciate is the way
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when you when you the money that you
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have in society has no value anymore the
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societ itself tends to crumble there's
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nothing of value anymore there's nothing
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that and and that's what exactly what
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happened in Germany and literally at at
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that time the the Germans had to take a
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wheelbarrow full of of paper currency
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not just one or two pieces a wheelbarrow
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of paper currency to to a a shop to buy
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a loaf of bread and you know and the the
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German um uh government was printing uh
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new you know new currency so fast that
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they didn't even put uh any anything on
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the back side of the currency they only
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printed on the front side of it because
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they they had to you know get get them
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running out that fast well he shocked
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broke that and so he was very very
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important when he threw in his lot with
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with Hitler and and became Hitler's uh
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top Finance guy and he also came up with
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the the strategy of how they were going
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to pay for the war and it was he called
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it a policy of autarchy we would call it
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self self-reliance you you didn't you
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weren't going to be reliant on any
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foreign country you wanted to have
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everything that you're going to need for
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the war made in Germany but there were a
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few products that Germans just could not
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make I I wonder what drove the German
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hunger for gold is was there any other
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way that they could have financed World
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War II there's absolutely no other way I
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mean they would have because their
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currency couldn't be used I mean
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obviously the United States wasn't going
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to uh be sending them uh you know tanks
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or oil or any kind of product that that
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they needed uh the the only way that the
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Germans could get these half dozen
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wartime products that were so crucial
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for their war effort was to pay for them
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in gold or a currency like the the Swiss
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frank which the Germans then you know
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bought from Switzerland in exchange for
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gold so gold throughout history has
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always been a medium of of of finance
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that would always be acceptable because
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there's so little gold around the world
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and has such a high value I mean I say
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so little gold you know the all the gold
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that has ever been mined in the world
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would fill up three Olympic siiz
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swimming pools only three because you
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can so you can imagine what and and yet
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everybody wants that gold
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so the price goes up so I believe the it
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was the Austrian Central Bank that was
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the first to be raid yes what was the
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impact of that gold on the course of the
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war great the Germans got a lot of gold
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out of Austria partly because nobody was
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expecting that kind of thing um they got
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something like 90 tons of of Central
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Bank gold and they got 15 Tons of
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private gold largely from from the
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Jewish citizens Vienna a large Jewish
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community that that held a lot of gold
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and diamonds and the Nazis got all of
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that the Germans war machine was almost
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out of out of money when they invaded
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Austria suddenly they had about 90 tons
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of new gold and that allowed them to to
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go on you know invading other countries
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Czechoslovakia Poland all of those some
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countries they got it sometimes they
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didn't in doing your research uh what
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were some of the most dramatic um
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episodes that stuck in your
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mind I think it was probably in the
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Norwegian story um Norway was a neutral
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uh but Hitler was you know running over
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neutrals countries pretty fast and so
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they were very worried that the the
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Norwegian Norway would be run over and
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it was in April of
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1939 the Nazis invaded Denmark and
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Norway at this simultaneously
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and the the day of the invasion uh just
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shortly uh after
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midnight um the Germans the the the the
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Norwegians had pulled back a lot of
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their their retired officers and retired
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people and they had they weren't much of
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a military power to say the least they
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they were a neutral country and thought
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that the best thing that they could do
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is just hope that nobody would invade um
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but they had brought back some of the
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people from retirement and one of the
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guys they brought back from retirement
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was given in charge of of uh of
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protecting the entrance to Oslo which is
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the Oslo
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fiord and there was a fortress there
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that had been built in the 19th century
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and in that Fortress were some guns they
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were crup made guns by the the great
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German Munitions manufacturer uh were
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two giant um
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guns and just past midnight he looks out
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in the into the FI he looks out out into
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the fiord and he sees this giant ship
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coming towards him then he realizes it's
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a whole Convoy of ships there's several
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of them he has no idea what the
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nationality is because it could very
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easily have been a British ship because
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the British were also very active
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because they were trying to stop the
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Germans from from doing that but he
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looked out and all he could see was this
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giant ship coming he didn't realize it
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but it was a brand new Cruiser was on
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its maiden voyage and it got in it got
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about a half a mile from him and he
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looked out and he said to nobody except
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himself he said Tom tomorrow I'll be a
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national hero or I'll be Court Marshal
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fire and they fired and dead on they hit
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the the the ship and that the ship uh
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went down and actually sunk about hours
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later a lot of the ship soldiers had
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been able to to get off um but that that
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delayed The Invasion by just a day and
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in that one day of of Grace the the the
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Norwegians were able to get the cabinet
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the the the gold and the King up to uh
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the northern part of of ital of
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of of Norway you know bit bit bit by bit
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uh until they went over to Britain in
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the and what surprised you most in
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writing this
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book I I was surprised by the reluctance
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of the United States to get more
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involved I I know why they did I know
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after World War I the Americans were uh
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isolationists and they didn't want to
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get involved in in the world
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situation uh you know kind of feeling
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you know we we were isolated you know we
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had again we had the Ocean between us
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and Europe and let the let the the
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Europeans fight their own thing even
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though what the Nazis were doing was
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really outrageous I mean you know the
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and the fact that the United States you
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know it was only after Pearl Harbor that
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the United States got into World War II
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and by that time and the the first
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invasion of of Austria was in
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1938 uh and the United States didn't get
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into the war until 42 so they had four
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years where the United States sat on
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their hand hands didn't do much they did
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some but not
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much uh were it not for this major gold
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robbery what do you think might have
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been Hitler's role in history well I
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don't think it probably would have been
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much at all because I think they would
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have run out of money and he would have
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his his armies could not have
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accomplished what they did
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um you know at a certain point you know
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if Hitler had had had quit say in 193 36
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or 37 uh he would probably have gone
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into history with as you know one of the
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great leaders because he you know he he
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stopped the he brought around the German
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economy which was was struggling and he
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he unified the country uh but he he
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didn't care about that I mean he was a
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fanatic who only cared about military
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power and you know he he he didn't know
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how to control himself
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and and that's why he he went headstrong
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and and after those first victories at
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the beginning the victory over France
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over Belgium after Australia Austria um
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Poland all those countries he was he had
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had been so he that he thought he could
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do anything that he made the Fatal
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mistake of invading the Soviet Union and
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that was the beginning of his downfall
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now since um you've written four books
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about wine before writing this one
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should we expect three more books about
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gold no I don't think there's going to
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be three more books about gold I'm
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kicking around some my other ideas and I
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I haven't actually decided uh what my
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next book is going to be and I'm kind of
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looking for a topic I I'm afraid I I
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don't think I'll probably ever find as
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good a topic as gold so I I'll have to
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to deal with second best George thank
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you so much for speaking with knowledge
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at Wharton thank you very much for
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having me
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[Music]
