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our guests today are Christian tursh a
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professor of operations and information
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management at Wharton and Carl rrick the
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vice dean of innovation at Wharton and
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we're going to talk to them about
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massive open online courses or muks as
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they're better called and how they will
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impact Business Schools uh Christian and
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Carl thanks very much for joining us
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today thanks for having us thanks for
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having us uh Christian perhaps you could
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start us off by describing the main
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findings or takeaway from your research
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now let me let me preface what we're
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going to discuss about business school
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by saying that Carl and I have been in
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the business school world for many many
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years we love this institution uh and we
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really want to make sure that we find a
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sustainable path forward for the
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business schools but Business Schools in
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the world of these massive online
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courses are somewhat threatened and a
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lot of that has to do with our cost
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structure we are very expensive
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organizations and there there are really
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two main reasons for that is one we do
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two things we teach and we do research
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but only the teaching part comes with
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revenues and so all of the research work
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that we do all this great research that
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is funded for is funded for by our
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students and the second thing like
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honestly like most nonprofits we don't
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always have an eye on efficiency if you
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and I would run an airline together and
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we would fly our planes half empty very
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quickly bad things start to happen yet
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that culture of efficiency of
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productivity is something that we
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haven't had in the business schools and
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as these moves are coming along and
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things that we about to talk about these
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moves are coming along the cost pressure
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on our institutions are going to change
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because suddenly there's some very
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serious alternative for coming to a
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two-year degree to Warden right car
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anything to add to what Christian just
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said the the other thing I would say is
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a key finding of our analysis is really
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to look at what the benefits are that
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MBA students derive from their full-time
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MBA experience and we point out that
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teaching and learning the more
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traditional academic topics are probably
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only a quarter or a fifth of the reason
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that students come and get an MBA
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program and that's the piece that we
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think is most susceptible to change from
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this emerging new technology but that
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probably doesn't impact the other
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elements of the of the MBA program right
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so one of the things I found interesting
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in your research paper uh is that you
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you talk about the fact that in a Muk
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what is relevant to the business school
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is not the moo per se but the technology
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the video based technology that is
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embedded in the moo uh and and this kind
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of struck me because I remember 20 years
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ago uh uh there was a lot of hype around
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uh the fact that video lectures were
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available on on videotapes or later that
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they were available on uh CD ROMs and
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and each time there was a lot of uh you
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know expectation about what this would
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do to Business Schools but neither of
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these
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affected or or of disrupted the business
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school model in any fundamental way do
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you think a Muk is fundamentally more
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disruptive and I would like to know from
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each of you if that is the case why that
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may be so so let's start with the
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technology as you say we find it's very
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helpful to separate the moo from the
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technology that enables the moo that
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technology is a combination of short
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videos smart testing with potentially
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automated grading uh social networking
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on communities all these things wrapped
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together as we've seen with courses at
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edex in particular with corsera uh is
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creating a technology that is applied
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now to the moo given away for free as
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we've kind of seen it over the courses
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that we've taught here at warten but
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that moo and that technology are two
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separate pieces the moo is just one
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application and we can imagine many
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other ways in which these new
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technologies we we call this a superx
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that superx the videos the Adaptive
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testing so social networking there are
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many other ways which we can deploy that
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technology and in those other
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applications we believe is a much bigger
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threat to institutions like ours
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compared to taking these courses teach
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them to 100,000 students at once and
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giving that away for free we we don't
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feel threatened by the moo we do feel
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threatened by the super text I I'd make
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a few other observations about video
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video's been around it's been available
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to Consumers for 30 years but there's
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something fundamentally different about
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the availability today of video and I
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think that's evident if you look at the
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behavior of consumers online they're
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watching KH Academy they're watching TED
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Talks they're spending a lot of time on
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YouTube when I watch my teenagers do
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their math homework they do it with
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their laptop their smartphone so they
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can text their friends and then and then
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they watch a YouTube video to explain
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how to do the math problem so video is
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is fast and it's available everywhere
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with just a click and the big Insight I
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think in the first move was that by
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chunking the video by making it just a
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few minutes long and making it
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semisynchronous that is available on
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demand during a week of the course you
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get a much greater adoption and viewing
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of that video as opposed to for instance
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having to take a a video cassette out of
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a library check it out of a library take
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it home plug it in scan you know fast
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forward to the right section that that
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friction substantially diminished the
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usefulness of video when it was first
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introduced right now so so I I get the
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fact that uh because the video is so
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easily and readily available that that
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the adoption rates are much higher uh
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but one of the things you mentioned in
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your paper is that of the three Pathways
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that you describe in your research uh
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the first one is that uh B schools will
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be able to serve more students better
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and more efficiently uh as a result of
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this technology now since each of you
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teaches a course on corsera I wonder if
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you could draw on your own teaching
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experience and show how do you teach
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better and more efficiently via the Muk
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platform than you might do in a
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classroom I I teach product design at
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pen I've taught it for 20 years and I've
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recently taught a moo in which maybe
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100,000 students over four offerings of
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the course have participated in that
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subject and I have I made 65 videos
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short videos that explain some of the
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key Concepts in product design I found
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myself when teaching product design two
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years ago I found myself in class
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opening up my web browser going to my
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cors era course and showing my students
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a video because says oh I have this
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great example let me show it to you and
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then I realized how silly that was and
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that what I really should be doing is
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having those students watch the videos
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without me before they got to class and
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so in the last year when I teach product
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design I've posed to myself the
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challenge what can we do in the class
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room that can only be done when 60
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people are together sharing the same
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time and location and I have them watch
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the video offline and then when we get
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together we do a simulation or an
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exercise or presentations or group work
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things that can only be done in that
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location when we're all together so
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that's the flipped classroom mod that's
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the so-called flipped classroom are you
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using the same model through well I'm
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Carl his his videos are actually funny
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and so I I am in a somewhat more
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constrained environment but but I think
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the question that you're posing is an
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important one that we think about our
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brick and mortar classroom offerings
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here I teach the core course in
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operations management among other things
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it's 12 time 80 minutes that every
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student at the Wharton School has to
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take 12 time 80 minutes uh 960 minutes
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in total my online course on corsera is
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about 40 45 video segments of about 6 to
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7 minutes right so you see that there's
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almost a compression of
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50% as you go from the traditional
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classroom to the online medium so now
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the question is of course what happens
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to the other minutes right and I think
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it's helpful to break those up into a
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couple of buckets uh the first bucket is
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just there are certain things that we do
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in the classroom we unfortunately cannot
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replicate on the Mooks these are case
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discussions game exercises those are
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moments that Carl describes those are
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things that only can happen when we're
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together but I also have to point out
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that there is a fair bit of waste in
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what we do in the classroom and that has
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to do just do with the fact that
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different students learn at different
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rates when a student struggles on the
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move they can just rewind or they can
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just read something and then catch up
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again whereas in the classroom you're
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constrained by a common pace for
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everyone and so you really do gain
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efficiency you gain productivity as you
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take the same group of students and have
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them moved over to a hybrid model and I
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think Carl has been on the Forefront on
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this in the core again we uh I don't
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think we're quite as far but the
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direction is certainly clear we have to
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benefit from that new technology now
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despite the you know evident uh
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advantages of muks one of the challenges
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that all muks face is that the
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completion rate typically tend to be uh
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pretty low uh and I wonder both as
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teachers and as researchers what you
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have learned through your experience
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that might be relevant to the B schools
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well the the completion rate statistic
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really is a red herring I mean people
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like to to trot it out but it it it
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doesn't seem terribly relevant to me if
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you think about what the barrier is to
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registering for a moo it's literally one
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click in the Corsair environment so many
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people enroll to to check it out to
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watch a few videos to see what it's all
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about my moo requires hundreds of hours
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of effort uh to complete a substantial
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design project very very few people are
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willing to put in hundreds of hours but
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but many people are interested in
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learning a bit about customer needs or
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Aesthetics in design or prototyping so
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they watch a few videos so we really
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think pretty carefully and mukes about
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three categories of Learners those who
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are just browsing those who want to view
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the material but won't do the work and
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then those who will do all of the work
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and I I think the so as I say that that
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that narrow completion statistic I don't
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think is terribly meaningful in terms of
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evaluating the success of the muks yeah
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it's a classic example of what often
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times people do when an innovation comes
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out they take a performance metric that
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is designed to evaluate the old
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technology which is kind of brick and
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Mortal learning and they take that old
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metric you know completion rates is an
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important thing if you pay uh you know
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$120,000 for your mbba degree or or even
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more dollars when you send your kids to
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college their completion rate is a
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really really important number to track
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uh and we are anchoring this on the kind
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of the 95 plus% completion rate that we
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have in that world taking that number
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and comparing it to the 5% in the moo
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just absolutely makes no sense as K
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describes most of these people since
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they don't have to pay anything they
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just click and register in an effort
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that you would maybe browse through a
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store when you retail kind of in a
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retail experience you check out an item
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and you wonder like oh do I want that
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well this is not in some sense
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purchasing it's just looking at
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something and the it's just the nature
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of the web that every looking instance
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is actually recording as you enrolling
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so I think that that statistic is in
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that sense not telling anything and we
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should focus much more on the
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participation that once of the students
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is in and again we see the segmentation
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that some of the students really just
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want to do some videos they just want to
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watch this stuff and then there are
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those students who really do the work
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those that drop out at the beginning
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because they really find that this was
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maybe not what they were looking for I
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really couldn't care less so so let
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let's push a little further on that
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$120,000 number you mentioned that MBA
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students pay to attend uh an MBA program
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uh and as you correctly said joining a
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moo costs nothing at all mean given the
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fact that to produce content for a Muk
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uh is expensive in terms of time and
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money how do you think muks can be made
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financially
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sustainable it it's actually not very
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expensive so if you look at what it
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costs to develop a moo it's it's in in
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in a sustainable mode in the long run
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it' be about
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$70,000 but but we reach with a Muk
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several hundred thousand students so we
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really look at it if you look at it on a
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on a per viewer basis it runs to about
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50 cents per person and at 50 cents per
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person that's cheaper than almost any
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other form of Outreach that we do at the
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Warton school and 50 cents for that kind
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of Engagement very very inexpensive so
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I'd like to object to the idea that
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they're expensive they're just not very
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expensive well a little bit further math
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might might might help here right so we
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as Elite universities Elite business
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schools are in the business of creating
00:13:10
reputation reputation is important it
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will drive our demand it will drive how
00:13:14
our graduates are viewed in the market
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so reputation is key how do you create
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reputation the traditional vehicle of
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reputation building was research so if
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you do some numbers on how much it costs
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us when Carl and I sit down and we write
00:13:29
a scholarly article that makes a cut
00:13:31
into the best academic journals we found
00:13:34
in our report that it takes us somewhere
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around 3
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$400,000 of research Investments to just
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get one scholarly article out for that
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money for one single paper we can
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basically create somewhere around three
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four five muks with the enrollment that
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we just talked about the other reference
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point that we might use is just the
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University of Pennsylvania's operating
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budget
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multibillion the Wharton schools
00:14:01
operating budgets hundreds of millions
00:14:04
and what we're spending on Ms we're
00:14:06
spending about
00:14:08
0.1% and if not a little less of our
00:14:11
budget on muks that apparently we all
00:14:13
believe is z key technology for the
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future so this notion that we're
00:14:18
overspending I don't buy other forms of
00:14:20
disruptions other forms of concerns we
00:14:22
need to discuss but the notion that this
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is expensive and we're stealing money
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from our kind of traditional customers
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and giving that content away for free
00:14:31
that threat I think is not real yeah
00:14:33
that that was not the point I was trying
00:14:35
to drive at I mean clearly there is a
00:14:36
huge value to to the knowledge that is
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disseminated through the muks uh the the
00:14:43
question of course is that different
00:14:44
schools are trying to monetize them in
00:14:46
different ways uh at places like Harvard
00:14:49
for example they have introduced a paid
00:14:51
pre-mba program if you were to look at
00:14:54
some of the different economic models
00:14:55
that are being wrapped around muks uh
00:14:58
could you of give me your thoughts on
00:15:00
where do you think this is going and
00:15:02
which model is are likely to be most
00:15:04
sustainable well the the first thing I I
00:15:07
think we should do is distinguish
00:15:08
between muks and other forms of online
00:15:10
education because I think muks are
00:15:13
fundamentally about Outreach and social
00:15:15
Mission and that's and they're not very
00:15:17
expensive and so I think we can easily
00:15:19
justify them based just on this this the
00:15:22
social value that's created now that's
00:15:25
not to say that there aren't some nice
00:15:27
economic opportunities for online
00:15:29
education and I would say at at Wharton
00:15:32
there are two that that we think could
00:15:35
be important one is Executive Education
00:15:37
if you look at how expensive it is to
00:15:39
send someone physically to Philadelphia
00:15:42
to spend a week in Executive Education
00:15:44
it's a it's a maybe A5 or $10,000 cost
00:15:47
and we may be able to deliver some of
00:15:49
the benefits of that experience much
00:15:51
less expensively using technology so
00:15:54
that's one the other is that we think
00:15:57
that a place like pen and Wharton can be
00:16:00
the originator of content that's used in
00:16:02
instruction by other institutions and
00:16:05
that like with textbooks there's a way
00:16:06
to charge P per use or per per user for
00:16:10
that material and so that could be a
00:16:11
potential Revenue Source yeah there's a
00:16:14
lot of value on the table uh especially
00:16:16
I mean going back to C's Executive
00:16:18
Education example uh there are lots of
00:16:21
people in corporate settings that come
00:16:24
to warten and that's great but uh you
00:16:26
know we're talking about tuitions of $ 7
00:16:28
$8,000 for a week these people traveling
00:16:30
and these people being away from work
00:16:32
and so by Design This is only some
00:16:35
privilege that you get if you're working
00:16:37
in in in top management there is a large
00:16:40
number of other people in executive
00:16:43
positions at the Eon below that that we
00:16:46
are right now not reaching but that we
00:16:48
could be reaching through technology
00:16:50
they would love the learning we can
00:16:52
certainly deliver through the technology
00:16:55
at Cost Points Way South of maybe $1,000
00:16:58
if not $500 for that onee learning
00:17:01
experience online so we bring those two
00:17:03
things together and we're going to
00:17:04
generate a lot of value and there's no
00:17:06
reason to believe that especially with a
00:17:08
strong brand like we have at warten we
00:17:10
wouldn't be able to also then capture
00:17:12
some of the value for ourselves sure so
00:17:14
I mean in other words the uh you you can
00:17:17
spread the Ripple effects of Executive
00:17:19
Education much further you know to to
00:17:22
the lower tiers of an organization if
00:17:23
you like by combining uh Executive
00:17:26
Education and muks that's a great Point
00:17:28
absolutely right uh well the other very
00:17:30
interesting point in your research paper
00:17:32
is that uh you said that uh you can
00:17:35
teach existing students with fewer
00:17:38
faculty members now uh given the fact
00:17:41
that most things tend to happen in
00:17:43
Academia when they get enough faculty
00:17:45
byy in uh do you think that um uh unless
00:17:49
there is significant faculty by in two
00:17:52
muks uh uh are faculty members likely to
00:17:55
really support something that threatens
00:17:58
to cut down the their numbers in the
00:17:59
future well this one is a scary thought
00:18:01
but let's put this in context uh what we
00:18:04
do in the paper is we articulate three
00:18:06
scenarios that we believe can play out
00:18:08
in the world of the super TX as as I
00:18:11
said earlier on I I'm not too wild about
00:18:13
the term of moo because we're really
00:18:15
talking about the technology here um
00:18:17
there are three scenarios and the reason
00:18:19
why we work with scenarios history
00:18:22
Academia is full of bad forecast and
00:18:24
predictions so we didn't want to join
00:18:26
that club we know that social systems
00:18:28
are so complex that if you and I with
00:18:30
car sit here and make predictions about
00:18:32
the future in 10 years we're going to be
00:18:34
wrong and so what we did is we
00:18:35
articulate three scenarios the first
00:18:37
scenario is we're going to have this new
00:18:40
technology that makes us more productive
00:18:42
we have the same faculty the same
00:18:44
business school stay in place and so now
00:18:46
that they are more productive they can
00:18:47
reach more students for example that
00:18:49
goes back to the Executive Education
00:18:51
online the second scenario is the one
00:18:53
that you are pointing to is that
00:18:54
scenario where we have a constant
00:18:57
student population because really the
00:18:59
demand for top MBA programs almost by
00:19:02
definition is Not Without Limits and so
00:19:05
if we have fixed demand but a much more
00:19:07
productive production technology but by
00:19:10
definition they're going to be fewer of
00:19:12
us and then the third scenario that we
00:19:14
can talk about in a moment the third
00:19:15
scenario is so disruptive that the
00:19:18
business school is fall into pieces so
00:19:20
that second scenario that we're talking
00:19:21
about we call that the clowns and the
00:19:24
movie theaters the effect of the clowns
00:19:26
and the movie theaters is that in the
00:19:28
you know 18 18 19th 20th century if you
00:19:30
wanted entertainment you would show up
00:19:32
to the local Village Square you would
00:19:34
watch a clown they would do some funny
00:19:36
things in front of you and you would
00:19:38
have a laugh while now you watch a movie
00:19:41
and unfortunately most clowns have lost
00:19:43
their jobs and so the question that
00:19:44
we're debating is to what extent Carl
00:19:46
and I here are going to be the clowns of
00:19:48
the 21st century The Other M you asked
00:19:53
about whether faculty would resist the
00:19:55
change clearly they would under that
00:19:58
scenario
00:19:59
but I think we already have pretty good
00:20:00
evidence that in the face of cost
00:20:03
pressure there will be a reduction in
00:20:05
faculty I mean just look if you look at
00:20:06
higher education more generally over the
00:20:08
last 10 to 20 years the number of
00:20:11
student credit hours taught by tenur and
00:20:13
tenure track faculty has been steadily
00:20:15
declining and there's been an increase
00:20:17
in the use of adjunct in part-time
00:20:18
faculty that is a trend driven by cost
00:20:21
pressure yes we all didn't like it but
00:20:24
it didn't mean it didn't happen and so
00:20:26
we cannot like it but in the face of a
00:20:30
competing technology that may be better
00:20:33
and that's definitely cheaper it's very
00:20:35
hard to argue that that we can
00:20:38
completely resist it let's talk a little
00:20:40
bit about the third scenario before
00:20:43
coming back to all three of them is if
00:20:45
when you talk about the complete un
00:20:48
unbundling of the business school or the
00:20:50
emergence of other alternatives to
00:20:51
Business Schools uh what do you think
00:20:54
might play out in that sort of the third
00:20:56
option well I think the first thing to
00:20:59
recognize is that the primary reason
00:21:01
that an MBA student matriculates at the
00:21:04
Wharton School or at any other top
00:21:05
business school is because they think
00:21:06
it's going to advance their career and
00:21:09
that to some extent they want to learn
00:21:11
some specific skills and knowledge but
00:21:13
there really is an other there are other
00:21:15
benefits that they look to to achieve
00:21:17
and to obtain and they are access to
00:21:19
careers uh and the development of a
00:21:21
social network that will benefit them
00:21:24
throughout their their lives and and to
00:21:26
some extent a credentialing or a
00:21:27
stamping of appr approval that
00:21:29
distinguishes them from other people in
00:21:31
the in the in the labor force if those
00:21:34
functions of credentialing of social
00:21:36
network and of um and of access to
00:21:40
employers are now provided by others
00:21:43
outside of Business Schools then I think
00:21:45
our role is quite threatened and right
00:21:47
now they're they're bundled together and
00:21:49
they include this academic learning
00:21:51
piece but if they ever become unbundled
00:21:54
and are started to be provided by other
00:21:56
institutions then I think Business
00:21:57
Schools are threatened
00:21:59
yeah the metaphor that Carl and I use in
00:22:01
our report is the the idea of a Swiss
00:22:03
army knife right when you purchase a
00:22:05
Swiss army knife you don't know yet when
00:22:08
are you going to use it and you don't
00:22:10
know which part of the knife you're
00:22:11
going to use for going to use first
00:22:13
that's very similar to our MBA students
00:22:15
they come here they get all this
00:22:17
knowledge that one day in their life and
00:22:20
sometimes 10 15 20 years into their
00:22:22
career they might have to access but
00:22:24
they don't know when and they also don't
00:22:26
know what part and so that back the
00:22:28
question is there another way of
00:22:30
delivering that knowledge very much on
00:22:34
demand when you want it instead of
00:22:36
buying this library of videos have much
00:22:38
more of an iTunes or Netflix model where
00:22:40
you say like well I want to watch that
00:22:42
movie today well just click on it and
00:22:44
get it when you need it so you face a
00:22:45
situation at work you're doing some m&a
00:22:48
work well why don't you take the m&a
00:22:50
course right now when you need it of the
00:22:53
three scenarios that you outline in your
00:22:55
research uh which ones do you think are
00:22:57
most like for business schools and
00:23:01
why well the nature of scenarios is that
00:23:04
they are all somewhat unlikely otherwise
00:23:06
we wouldn't have created them uh let
00:23:08
let's add to that that these scenarios
00:23:11
to some extent are scenarios like we
00:23:15
would roll the dice and it's going to be
00:23:16
1 2 3 4 5 six right it's it's exogenous
00:23:19
it's a shock it's Randomness and it's
00:23:21
just hard to predict but to some extent
00:23:23
these scenarios are also active choices
00:23:25
there are strategies especially at the
00:23:28
top schools especially in the leadership
00:23:29
of the school we can make some choices
00:23:32
that will influence the future and that
00:23:35
will basically you know fall into these
00:23:37
three buckets uh personally I feel that
00:23:40
we are well under the way of playing
00:23:42
scenario one we have done the moo for
00:23:45
outreach we're experimenting with
00:23:46
Executive Education we need to do more
00:23:49
but we're clearly on the way on scenario
00:23:51
one I would love us to play a little bit
00:23:54
with scenario 3 that's the furthest out
00:23:57
scenario two I think right now we're in
00:23:59
this privileged situation here at
00:24:01
Wharton at least that the cost pressure
00:24:02
has not been quite as big and the
00:24:05
implementation feasibility the kind of
00:24:07
the reluctance obviously from us as a
00:24:10
faculty to embrace this that's not going
00:24:12
to be the first point where we start so
00:24:14
I would put my money as somebody making
00:24:16
a strategy on a combination of one and
00:24:18
yeah I I would I think there scenario
00:24:22
two I think is pretty likely there's
00:24:23
going to be some decline in faculty size
00:24:26
that the cost pressure is unavoidable I
00:24:28
don't think it'll be a catastrophic
00:24:30
decline in faculty I think it'll be my
00:24:32
prediction would be a modest decline in
00:24:34
faculty um I think actually to build on
00:24:38
Christian's point we need to
00:24:40
aggressively pursue scenario one pathway
00:24:43
one in order to mitigate pathway 3 and
00:24:46
so in particular I think we have an
00:24:48
opportunity at Wharton and at the other
00:24:51
Elite Business Schools to create an
00:24:53
unrivaled educational experience for
00:24:55
students but one in which they learn a
00:24:57
lot of the RO subjects the more
00:24:59
mechanical subjects online and without
00:25:01
the use of expensive faculty resource
00:25:04
then when they're here together we
00:25:06
challenge ourselves to give them an
00:25:07
experience that they couldn't get
00:25:09
anywhere else and by doing so we
00:25:11
reinforce the value of them
00:25:13
participating in the Wharton experience
00:25:15
and that helps us mitigate against the
00:25:17
unbundling that could happen in pathway
00:25:19
3 what surprised you most about this
00:25:21
research that you've done what was your
00:25:24
biggest surprise I have to say you know
00:25:27
our our analysis is just arithmetic it's
00:25:29
just adding and subtracting a little bit
00:25:31
division but we were quite surprised at
00:25:34
what scholarship costs just how
00:25:35
expensive it is and how expensive it is
00:25:37
relative to the the educational
00:25:40
activities of the school that surprised
00:25:41
me yeah for me the biggest surprise has
00:25:44
been how seriously threatened our
00:25:48
institution and the Business School
00:25:50
Community is asess I said at the
00:25:51
beginning this is the institution we've
00:25:54
been employed for over 20 years with
00:25:56
kind of with graduate school this has
00:25:57
made our careers that has been at least
00:26:00
for me I I think I can speak for Carl on
00:26:02
this front this has been the perfect job
00:26:05
that we love uh the institution that we
00:26:07
love and nevertheless you when you run
00:26:10
those numbers you feel how threatened
00:26:13
that ecosystem is there is no guarantee
00:26:16
that in 20 years from now we're going to
00:26:18
have the same business model going as it
00:26:20
is right now well do your research
00:26:22
focuses primarily on Business Schools in
00:26:24
the MBA program uh what do you think uh
00:26:27
in your research could apply more
00:26:29
broadly to U higher education as a
00:26:33
whole higher education sees the same
00:26:36
pressures and the same threats and
00:26:38
opportunities in fact to some extent the
00:26:40
other parts of the University have felt
00:26:42
them before Business Schools my wife's a
00:26:45
professor in in the English Department
00:26:47
at Penn and they've already seen
00:26:49
tremendous cost pressures and they've
00:26:52
seen that that impact on that they've
00:26:54
seen that impact the faculty ranks the
00:26:56
way they do and the way they do
00:26:57
instruction
00:26:58
so I don't really think Business Schools
00:27:00
are terribly unique they are somewhat
00:27:03
unique I think in well I would say
00:27:05
professional schools are somewhat unique
00:27:07
in that the primary purpose of paying
00:27:10
the tuition dollars is to advance
00:27:12
yourself in your career and that's
00:27:14
unique to professional schools as
00:27:15
opposed to say an undergraduate
00:27:17
experience which I think is much less
00:27:19
threatened because an undergraduate
00:27:21
experience is much more about going away
00:27:23
finding your identity having enabling
00:27:26
experiences building a commun social
00:27:28
network those things I think are much
00:27:30
harder to substitute at least for the
00:27:32
elite universities the IVs and so forth
00:27:36
yeah so I think certainly we as business
00:27:38
schools
00:27:39
are particularly threatened because
00:27:41
again I think we're used to this very
00:27:44
high tuition very high salary type of
00:27:46
Lifestyle we could afford ourselves that
00:27:48
luxury of not looking at efficiency
00:27:50
something that in many of the second and
00:27:52
third year schools in many of the other
00:27:54
fields outside Business Schools those
00:27:57
things these guys have been under that
00:27:59
cost pressure so many years ahead of us
00:28:02
that I think they are better prepared I
00:28:04
think the small liberal arts colleges
00:28:07
they don't have this Dual Purpose that
00:28:08
we talked about earlier on the research
00:28:10
and the teaching for them it's all about
00:28:12
the education of the student and so as
00:28:15
long as they do that that well as long
00:28:17
as they serve their customers the
00:28:18
student well people will be willing to
00:28:20
pay for it I think we are threaten in
00:28:23
particular about that scenario of
00:28:25
unbundling the teaching and the research
00:28:27
that is something that is pretty unique
00:28:29
to law schools and Business Schools I
00:28:31
have an appointment at the medical
00:28:33
school where the tradition is much more
00:28:35
like if you want to bring research if
00:28:37
you want to spend time doing research
00:28:39
have somebody pay for it bring in the
00:28:41
research dollars this cross subsidy is
00:28:43
actually something that is not that
00:28:45
broadly applicable other than the the
00:28:48
kind of the social sciences and I think
00:28:50
that's the one where I would feel we're
00:28:53
going to see some big pressure mounting
00:28:56
and if we can can have just one last
00:28:58
question what what future topics for
00:29:00
research uh do you think are sort of
00:29:03
thrown up as a result of what you've
00:29:04
studied so far I would love to see more
00:29:07
insights into the scenario 3 into this
00:29:11
unbundling we make it sound so nasty in
00:29:14
many ways it's unbundling the business
00:29:16
school falls into pieces I think it's
00:29:18
actually not that bad and in many ways
00:29:21
quite exciting right because what you do
00:29:23
is right now when we do research there's
00:29:26
really other than the perer evaluation
00:29:27
there's there's there's no measurement
00:29:29
of quality there's no feedback whether
00:29:31
what we research actually one day that
00:29:33
new knowledge is is is used anywhere in
00:29:35
practice if you think about scenario
00:29:37
three where the students learn on demand
00:29:40
what they need in practice that would
00:29:42
actually create an enormous pull from
00:29:45
the market that would direct us where we
00:29:48
develop new content where we develop
00:29:50
research and I think would be actually a
00:29:52
very interesting development in terms of
00:29:55
guiding our research where it is
00:29:57
mattering the most in practice so I
00:30:00
would love to see more of research
00:30:03
understanding scenario 3 understanding
00:30:05
exactly that business model and how that
00:30:07
activity system is falling into
00:30:09
different pieces but then these pieces
00:30:11
are potentially managed by different
00:30:13
organizations uh that is something where
00:30:15
I would love to spend more time on and I
00:30:17
certainly will i' I'd very much my
00:30:20
Personal Agenda I'd very much like to
00:30:22
see a quarter to a third of the content
00:30:25
of our MBA program U move to more
00:30:28
self-directed asynchronous learning
00:30:30
online and I think one of the real
00:30:32
challenges there is how you assess
00:30:34
competence and how you assess and and I
00:30:36
think it's actually an opportunity
00:30:38
because right now we don't assess
00:30:40
competence in business education we
00:30:42
simply assess did you complete the
00:30:44
degree per did you complete these
00:30:46
courses get a passing grade in the
00:30:47
courses so I think there's actually an
00:30:49
opportunity to improve what we do by
00:30:51
developing some methods of assessing how
00:30:53
good you are when you graduate from the
00:30:56
Wharton School and if we can do that we
00:30:58
can both improve the quality of the
00:31:00
education a student gets and we can
00:31:03
possibly make it better by moving some
00:31:05
of the the the instruction online great
00:31:09
uh Christian Carl thank you so much for
00:31:11
joining us today hey thanks for having
00:31:13
us here thank you
00:31:17
[Music]
