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Hello everyone. I am Itai Goldstein, professor of finance at the Walton School. This is the future of finance
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podcast. This is our second season. We did the first season on the future of finance and we talked about different
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dimensions of the future of finance including fintech and AI and finance and uh banking and meme stocks. And in the
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second season we are hoping to dive deeper into the issue of cryptocurrencies, digital assets, uh
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decentralized finance. This is our opening episode in the second season and we're going to talk more generally today
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about the rise of uh crypto and digital assets more generally. And for this we have two perfect guests and they're
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perfect for this uh particular purpose because they have been early movers uh in uh the direction of uh crypto and
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digital assets. uh I would say they identified uh the potential of this early on about a decade ago and uh stuck
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uh with it. Um and I'm happy to start with uh Kim Harvey who is a professor of
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finance at uh Duke University. Kim and I over overlapped at Duke for uh three years uh which was my first academic job
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and he was already a senior professor uh at the time. Um and he was as I said uh
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starting to think about uh crypto and digital assets uh at least a decade ago and I remember having some early
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conversations with him on this uh at the time. Hello Cam. >> Hello. Thank you for inviting me.
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>> Sure. It's great to have you. And our second guest is uh Nha Narula who is uh
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the director of MIT Media Labs digital currency initiative. also identified uh the movement towards uh crypto early on
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and her TED talk uh from 2016 about the future of money has over 2.5 uh million views on TED talk website I I believe.
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Hello Neha, it's great to have you. >> Hi, it's great to be here. >> So uh we have a lot uh to discuss. Uh so
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uh let's uh dive uh right in. Um I I would like to start from kind of the the
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big uh picture. Uh when we are thinking about digital assets and uh cryptocurrency,
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uh we are thinking about a potential change in the financial system, how the financial system works and what we
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should expect from the financial system going forward. Um so in your view, what do you think are the the main gaps in
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the traditional financial system the way that we were used to having it? what are
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the main gaps uh that crypto is trying to fill? >> Yeah. So I think the key word is gap. So
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change just for the sake of change might not be that useful. You need to be solving problems
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and this new technology offers the potential to solve many problems. So I think kind of starting off looking at
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the original Satoshi Nakamoto paper, it was about transactions and the inefficiency of the current uh
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transaction system. So the cost of transferring money uh the cost of transferring money to different
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countries the the weight that's necessary to do a simple uh transfer the middle people that are involved in a
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sort of transfer and it's not just about money transfer uh in our system of equities at the time of kind of the
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foundational sort of work in crypto it took three days to settle a stock transaction. So, so you think you buy it
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instantly, but to actually get ownership took three days. Now, we've improved to
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one day, and one day is not impressive for me. It should be a matter of seconds.
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And I guess um the last thing I'll I'll say and there's a long list of issues
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uh is that our current financial system is very exclusive. So there are four mill four billion
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people uh in the world right now that are unbanked and many that are underbanked.
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And and this idea effectively allows people to become banked in a different way. Your your
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smartphone uh is your bank and you can participate in the global financial system. So this is is really about
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inclusion and fundamentally economic and financial democracy in this space. Everybody is a peer. So there's
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no banker and customer institutional investor or retail investor. People are peers
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and we play on the same level ground. So I think those are some of the gaps that
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crypto has attempted to bridge. We're not there yet but we are moving in a positive direction.
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And nha where do you see the big gaps that we are trying to fill. Yeah, echoing that maybe just summarizing I
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mean I think you know three major things number one you can't settle 247 365
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can't settle money you can't settle equities you just you can't do that
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today with the existing financial system uh second you can't really make programmable payments it's really
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difficult to marry software with the movement of money um and then third the fees are way too high um in the United
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States merchants mostly bearing the cost which they passed on to consumers, you know, up to 3%. But, you know,
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everywhere we're we're paying way too many fees, especially unfortunately for
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things like remittances and crossber transactions. But the thing that I want to emphasize is that, you know, I really
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think what crypto and blockchain technology is addressing is not a technology problem. It's a market
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structure and incentive problem. So, it's not that we didn't have the technology to settle 24/7 on the old
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technology stack or it's not that we didn't have the ability to reduce fees.
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It's that the existing players didn't want to deploy better technology. They
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didn't want to change. There wasn't, you know, whether it's based on regulation
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or whether it's based on incentives, it there just we weren't getting that
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change. So if you look inside any of the major banks today, they're using software that was developed in the
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1960s. And what unfortunately happens, and it's not that they couldn't upgrade that
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software to modern software, they just they just don't want to. And so what happens is that when you have a whole
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new tech stack, a whole new platform, you get these new properties and you get new opportunities. you get new
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opportunities for new players to come in and to experiment and to build in the cryptocurrency blockchain world is this
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new opportunity, >> right? And in your uh TED talk, you basically talk about money as a
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collective fiction and I believe that Yuval Noah Hari was also using similar terms to talk about money and how it
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helps communication and coordination among among people. And basically when we are thinking about that we are
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thinking about crypto as kind of the next step in that process of evolution. So where do you think crypto is going to
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fit into that story and what kind of collective fiction are we going to get? >> Yeah. So, so the idea of the collective
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fiction is that, you know, if we look at this rich history of objects that have been used as money, shells, beads,
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coins, you know, it's certainly the case that there are properties of these objects that make them good at being
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money. Uh, and it's also the case that there are institutions, whether public
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or private, that stand behind the objects. But it really comes down to will someone accept payment in this
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currency? Do I have faith that this currency will be usable tomorrow, that anyone will take it? That it'll be
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roughly worth the same amount? And this faith is part of the fiction. Money isn't something, you know, even when
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we're thinking about it as objects. It's not something you can eat or use. It's
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not actually useful in and of itself outside of this faith and context. And it's even more obvious when you get
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beyond the objects to things like ledgers and accounts that we use to mark who has what. oftentimes it's just
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digital bits and databases. It's it's markers for our collective belief. And
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I'd say that crypto is not so much reshaping that story as much it is the next iteration of that story. And
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something that's coming out of it that's really interesting is that it's
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revealing the set of underlying assumptions behind something that we very much took for granted. The global
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monetary system. The global monetary system as it exists today is mostly just bits and databases. And you know, with
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the advent of cryptocurrency, people are asking questions like, wait, what do these bits actually mean? Who vouches
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for them? Why why can't you write over them? Uh why do people believe in them?
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Why do they have value? And so, you know, I think what's happening is that with the advent of cryptocurrency, it's
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really illuminating uh a lot about our monetary system that your average person maybe didn't necessarily think about or
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understand or, you know, really they they really took it for granted before. >> Yeah. So I agree with this but I want to
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push this a little further. So I agree fundamentally that something has got value because people believe it's got
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value. Uh, and in my book I tell the story of the Iraqi Swiss dinar um, which was printed uh, with Swiss
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printing plates uh, in England. And when sanctions were put on Iraq, they needed
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a plan B. So they started printing Saddam uh DNRs and you had to trade your Swiss dinars in uh for the Saddam DNRs
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or the Swiss DNRs would go to zero. Well, it turned out that Saddam undertook massive inflation and the new
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DNRs were pretty well useless, but people still use the old ones, especially in the north. and
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it wasn't backed by anything, but they believed that it was useful in terms of
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transactions. And and this is an important lesson that we've had kind of historically that you
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have to have faith. Uh we live in a fiat currency sort of system. The US dollar has got value obviously because it is
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number one legal tender. Number two, you need to pay taxes in US dollars. Number
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three, you could be incarcerated if you don't pay your taxes. So, there are like
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intangible values uh from uh the US dollar, but in the end, you can't redeem
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it uh for gold like you could have uh before August of 1971. Uh it is based upon belief that it's got
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value. But the thing that I want to add is that crypto introduces something different. So we could think of a stable
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coin that's linked to the US dollar as just a more efficient mechanism for dealing with the fiat currency.
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But in general, we've got the ability in this space to tokenize anything. And when we tokenize anything, this idea
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of money becomes very fuzzy. So that I can go, let's say, to pay for groceries
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and I usually pay in US dollars, but in the future I can pay with a token that's
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linked to something else. So I can pay in gold if I want. I can pay in Apple stock. I can pay in real estate. So the
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whole idea of money I think fundamentally changes and indeed in my book the first sentence is we've come
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full circle and that's referring to the origins of trade being decentralized
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the very inefficient barter system and where crypto takes us is a totally new direction where we have a a host of
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things that we can use to pay and effectively it is a more efficient barter system and that changes things
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fundamentally. It means that monetary policy is not as important. It means that fiat inflation could be in 15 years
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a historical relic. So this does structurally change what we will look like in the future.
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So both of you mentioned faith and trust and this is indeed crucial for the success of a financial system, the
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success of a monetary system and I wanted to connect back to your uh book uh Cam um DeFi and the future of
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finance. uh and I think one of the points that you're making there is that uh this did not happen now uh as a
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coincident but rather this is uh an outcome of the global financial crisis that we had in 2008 that maybe led uh to
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breaking in in the trust that we had in the financial system. So can you elaborate on this a little more? Do you
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see a direct connection indeed to the global financial crisis? Yes, but it goes even before the global uh financial
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crisis. Indeed, the global financial crisis was the last straw. Uh and and certainly most people know that the very
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first block uh in the Bitcoin blockchain makes a reference to a second bailout from a headline in the Times of London.
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Um so there is a link but this idea of uh some sort of digital money goes back well before indeed there was active
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research going on in the 1980s. There were hundreds of initiatives in terms of digital currency. Um the
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problem was that it was very difficult problem because just like you can make a digital copy of uh a document or a
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picture or a video that causes problems for currency perfect counterfeiting and most of these initiatives uh failed.
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However, when Satoshi Nakamoto published their 2008 uh paper, the game uh changed
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uh because this was a way to avoid uh the so-called double spending or counterfeiting uh problem. And that
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movement that he was involved with um had a number of people, the so-called cipher punks,
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kind of libertarianbased, very suspicious of big government monetary policy and the current financial
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institutions. The last straw was the financial crisis. I remember being in Davos in 2005 and
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having an audience with the chair of the Senate Banking Committee, Richard Shelby, and telling him he need to do
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the basic due diligence on the big banks because I saw extreme leverage. I saw these banks acting as hedge funds and I
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certainly hoped if there was a crisis that they would not be bailed out. But they needed to investigate the risk to
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at least know the risk. Um those suggestions were ignored and then you get this situation where these banks
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that were operating under extreme leverage were bailed out and that seemed very very pugnant to many people
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including me. Um and I think that that was kind of the impetus for um kind of the first wave of interest uh in
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Bitcoin. >> So Neha you also mentioned incentives and the fact that we had the big players
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using old technologies not having the incentive to change and as a result the progress was uh stifled. Um what do you
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see as the big trigger that led us uh to where we are now? Yeah. So, um I think definitely it was
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the case that we had projects that were trying to do digital money in the past. Um eCash is one of the most famous
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examples and um there were uh there were attempts to commercialize ecash to turn
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it into a uh to turn it into a product that people could use. The big big big problem with all of these services was
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that they relied on a centralized intermediary. So they used cryptography. They had, you know, really interesting
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properties. They um they provided a lot of privacy, but they relied on some kind
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of intermediary custodying the funds and being at the center of everything uh to
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solve the double spend problem. The real innovation behind Bitcoin, the first cryptocurrency, was that they figured
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out how to solve the double spend problem, not entirely, but in a decentralized way. That's that's that
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was the key part of that. And so that meant you didn't need a bank. And so, uh, the problem with all of the e-cash
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projects is that they all got shut down. Um, it wasn't, you know, they they were
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sort of kind of skirting around the edges of the law. It was very hard for them to find banks that wanted to kind
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of offer this as a product. um with you know without a bank it it wasn't legal
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but with Bitcoin it didn't require a bank it didn't require any financial
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institution it just required a group of peoples to start running software that was it and I think that was like the
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really key innovation the really key difference there was the fact that you could bootstrap these systems with just
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a group of people with computers that that was the real key idea that you didn't need to get a financial
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institution on board to custody money to plug into the financial system. And you
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know, of course, when it started, no, you know, nobody really wanted any Bitcoin. It wasn't really worth
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anything. But, you know, we've seen we've seen how that story plays out.
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Right now, today, as we're recording this, Bitcoin's worth over $120,000 US a
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coin. Um, and and so that it was realizing that you could bootstrap the platform in the system and then let let
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it figure out how to attain value over time. you didn't have to plug into the
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existing financial system immediately. That was really the key idea. >> Can I just build on that a little bit?
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And just to just to emphasize that the situation that we're in right now with our financial system is really
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not that different than kind of like 12 years ago or or 14 years ago. So, I was at uh a discussion that was
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sponsored by a multi-t trillion dollar uh asset manager with senior people and I asked the question uh what happens
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within the next few minutes if the swift system goes down. So this is the best of system that we use to
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transfer uh funds around the world and um people started looking at each other and it was very awkward and then
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finally the most senior person in in the room answered uh and the person said well we'll give
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people the day off and then everybody chuckled and I'm saying wow I I I just can't
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believe that. So that means a a fundamental lack of risk management. You need a backup
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and and currently there is no backup. And what the crypto space provides is a backup, an alternative,
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an alternative that does not rely as NA said upon a centralized system. It's decentralized.
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So I think that this is it's not just about making payments more efficient and
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lower cost. It's about having a system that is also more secure. So let me uh
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put the skeptic hat on uh for a minute because so far you have been emphasizing mostly the positive aspects of uh
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decentralized finance and crypto and and bitcoin but I think a lot of people who
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are looking at it from the outside uh they might say well we haven't really seen any of this progress so far. I
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think the promise about Bitcoin initially was that this is going to be a new means of payment and if not Bitcoin
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then other cryptocurrency but we haven't really seen that taking off as fast as
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some people promised and then we started talking about other rationals other narratives for uh cryptocurrencies that
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it's going to be a store of value it's going to be a hedge and other things
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like that the question is when we are seeing this shifting narrative and we haven't seen a use case that was fully
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established yet. Is this a sign that things are not going as planned that it's not as good as we thought or maybe
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this is just a learning process and uh we we are uh going towards a much better place uh in the end. So how do you see
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that? >> So I think the answer is a little bit both. Um and uh you know there there
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legitimately was a tremendous amount of overpromising and underdelivering and there's been a lot of trying on
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different narratives and seeing what fits. The thing is is I think this is actually pretty normal for any you know
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new innovative risky technology. It's just that this particular case was about
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something as fundamental as money and our global monetary system. So it had a lot of attention very early on. There
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were a lot of eyeballs. there were a lot of expectations um so you know and there
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and there was also an incentive to create a lot of hype uh because there was a lot of money to be made so
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definitely overpromising underd delivering not clear to me it was more so in this space than it was in other
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technologies I think there were just more eyes on it but you know we could we could debate that absolutely I think
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that you know as we iterate as we go through these cycles uh more and more of what doesn't work gets flushed out and
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So that's what we're seeing happening is that the people who overpromised and
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underdelivered, the people who were outright scammers or were perpetuating fraud, they're getting flushed out of
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the system. And this is good. This is what should be happening. Um, you know, in venture capital, a very small
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percentage of startups actually succeed. And so we should expect to see the same
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thing here. There's going to be a lot of projects that try to do a lot of grand
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things and they're not going to succeed. But there will be a few there will be a
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few that do really, really well. And I think, you know, given the stage we're
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at right now, you know, there are two things I see that are really promising and that are doing really well. Number
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one, Bitcoin has found product market fit as a potential for new digital gold. We are seeing that happen day after day.
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We are seeing actual countries decide to hold it as an asset. We're seeing uh,
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you know, public companies put it on their balance balance sheets. So, you know, we're seeing we're seeing people
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kind of adopt the narrative around Bitcoin. So, Bitcoin has found product market fit or is or is finding it. It's
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still in the early stages as digital gold. And then I think the second um you know major uh use case that we've seen
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is stable coins for crossber transactions. So, um and for international transactions and and also
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as kind of a hedge against inflation. So we are seeing a lot of use for stable coins and bitcoin in the global south in
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countries that are experiencing high inflation. People really want these things and you know merchants and
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economies are kind of slowly starting to develop around them. So those are like the two areas where I think we have seen
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you know actual success and we are seeing like real evidence of product market fit. Of course, the really
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interesting question is, well, what's going to be the thing in the next few years? Um, you know, real world assets.
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Are they going to be tokenized and move around primarily on blockchains instead of on uh exchanges, traditional
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exchanges? Um, is it going to be more about payments? Is it going to be more about a platform for the internet,
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digital goods? You know, these are the questions that we're still trying to answer.
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>> And I know that you're very optimistic about it. So, what do you have to add to
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that? I'm not sure optimism is the right word. Uh kind of implies a a bias. U I
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think I'm realistic about it. Uh and I do think it's important to look at the
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history of innovation. Uh this is a very significant innovation. It happens to be
00:26:12
um occurring at the same time of other disruptions which is interesting. Historically,
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we've never had, for example, decentralized technologies competing with AI and quantum technologies all at
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the same time. So, that that's to me very interesting. Um, because we've
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never had a situation like this. Uh, but with any innovation, uh, it's hard to guess the timing of how
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it plays out. And you always want it to happen faster than it actually does. And
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with any innovation, there's risk. So, some things will work and some things
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will not work. Uh one of the great things in this space um especially I spend most my time in the Ethereum space
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rather than Bitcoin is this idea that you can very quickly innovate by literally looking at the code somebody
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else has uh put up grabbing it and making changes to improve it. So the innovation very very fast. So I I do
00:27:24
worry uh again there there are risks here. Um I worry about companies adding Bitcoin to their treasury or their cash
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management. Um uh that to me doesn't make a lot of sense. The idea to have a
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reserve uh for kind of like bad times uh I totally get. And usually you have your
00:27:50
most liquid assets there that you can draw upon. Bitcoin is highly volatile asset
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uh and it may not be reliable. People talk about it as being a hedge uh against various things. Well, it is
00:28:04
unproven. So theoretically, yes, its money supply is not tied to anything um other than an
00:28:12
algorithm. It's not impacted by governments, but nevertheless, it is untested. we know it's volatile and just
00:28:20
the fact that it's four times more volatile than the S&P 500 um that almost
00:28:26
guarantees that it will be unreliable some of the times. So I worry about uh for example Satoshi's vision for Bitcoin
00:28:37
is completely different than what exists today. So, as Niha said, Bitcoin is a store of value, a risky store of value
00:28:47
with four times of all of the S&P 500. Uh, it is done well and maybe it's done
00:28:53
well because there's some momentum. So, these companies adding it to their uh
00:29:00
their balance sheets. Uh, but at some point that's going to stop. Um, and I worry about that. Again, I'm more
00:29:09
interested, frankly, in the Ethereum space. So, this idea of tokenizing real world assets. I agree that the the big
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success story in RWA is the stable coin. So, it's done very well. We saw Circle
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uh IPO. Uh this is a great innovation, but to me, it is just the tip of the iceberg. So there's so many other things
00:29:37
that can be tokenized and I'll give you just an example here is stablecoin is a
00:29:43
great business to be in. So circle uh IPOed for a very uh rich valuation because you think of what happens people
00:29:53
give circle money. Circle gives them a token that is one to one uh with the dollar. Circle takes that money, invests
00:30:04
in lowrisk treasury bills and repos, and Circle keeps all the interest. So, it's like a money market fund that the
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money market fund keeps all the money and the consumer gets nothing. So, we could do this a little differently. So,
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we could have a tokenized bond and that bond is going to pay interest. So you got the the ability to use this
00:30:35
token to pay for things, but it's also earning yield. So I think that stable
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coins are great. Um it is the most successful uh innovation in the space to date. Uh but they in my opinion will be
00:30:51
disrupted by yieldbearing stable coins. So just another wave of innovation that makes it even better experience uh for
00:31:02
consumers. >> Yes, thank you for saying that. We will also have an episode that is going to be
00:31:08
dedicated to stable coins. So certainly a lot to think about there. The the one last aspect that I want to talk about is
00:31:14
uh decentralization which is clearly key uh to uh cryptocurrencies and and fintech more generally. When we did the
00:31:24
fintech initiative at the review of financial studies, we started with that in 2017 and that was kind of the first
00:31:31
batch of academic papers that came out on on these uh topics. uh we we talked about what is different in uh fintech
00:31:40
revolution relative to previous technological innovations in in finance and we noted that it is certainly the
00:31:46
aspect of decentralization and also the disruption and both of you talked about it quite a bit but I think that when we
00:31:53
are looking at it now uh with the perspective of almost a decade later it seems like we haven't really gotten to
00:32:02
the decentralization as much as some people expected rather We see that there are forces within the DeFi system that
00:32:09
are uh interestingly pushing back into uh centralization. Uh and there is the power of intermediation.
00:32:17
There are certainly advantages to being a large centralized uh player. And so we
00:32:22
see that you know maybe the functions are a little different but at the end of the day we might end up in a system that
00:32:29
still has the big intermediaries and still is centralized to to a large extent. So where do where do you see
00:32:36
that the tension between uh centralization and decentralization and are we really going into a system where
00:32:43
everyone is a peer as as you both mentioned before or it'll still be an intermediated system but just looking a
00:32:51
little different. >> Yeah. So a few things here. First of all definitely want to echo your point that
00:32:56
there are great forces towards centralization there. You know with centralization you get better
00:33:02
efficiency. So just think about if there's two businesses that are kind of in the same area and then they merge,
00:33:10
there's an opportunity there to reduce redundancy, right? However, you've also
00:33:15
made the ecosystem a little bit more fragile and that's what happens with centralization. So we we see these
00:33:22
cycles play out, right? We see these cycles where, you know, just due to this increase in efficiency and and this
00:33:29
ease, there's more and more and more centralization. It becomes winner take all, winner take all, winner take all
00:33:34
and then things become too fragile and we see a big break and then um you know if there was any decentralization in in
00:33:43
that ecosystem those are the players who win because because they were you know they had there's more fall tolerance
00:33:48
there was more redundancy and so we see these cycles and I think we're going to
00:33:53
continue going back and forth like it's very important to note that it's not
00:33:57
like centralization is evil and decentralization is good and you know we we need everything to be 100% super
00:34:03
decentralized. You know, just just thinking about using an intermediary, for example, it's often the case that
00:34:09
it's the right choice for someone to use an intermediary or a custodian or an
00:34:14
exchange. It's not the right choice for them to try to custody their own keys or
00:34:18
to try to do something directly peer-to-peer. I think what's most important is that we have platforms and
00:34:24
systems where you always have the option to exit to your own self-custody to be a
00:34:31
part of the system to run your own node to do your own verification. Not that you have to do that all the time, but
00:34:37
you always have the option to be able to do that. And that I think allows us to kind of seamlessly move between the
00:34:46
centralized and decentralized. When we offer the people to sort of seamlessly kind of like exit the centralized
00:34:52
intermediaries, start running their own nodes, start, you know, custodying their
00:34:55
own funds, things like that, then we can we can create an overall system and ecosystem that is a bit more resilient.
00:35:03
So, I I agree with some of that. Um, and and let me kind of add like my spin on it. So,
00:35:14
centralization is not always the most efficient. And indeed, we've got plenty
00:35:20
of examples that are in our face today of centralized institutions that are extracting monopoly or duopoly. uh rents
00:35:34
and and that leads to welfare loss in our society. So let me be clear that I am not a uh
00:35:44
the type of DeFi person that believes that in the future everything is going to be 100% uh decentralized. We have
00:35:54
come from a time where we were 100% centralized. So I believe that the key word is efficiency
00:36:06
that in certain applications it might be more efficient to have some degree of centralization.
00:36:15
In other applications it might be more efficient to have it decentralized and these work together. So I give an
00:36:24
example of decentralized ride sharing. Well, um that you know the matching of the drivers and the writer is purely
00:36:34
algorithmic. You can imagine reward systems and stuff like that. You can do this in a way that greatly reduces the
00:36:43
45% fee that Uber or Lyft might take or whatever it is. So, we can do that, but there's certain things along the way
00:36:53
that need to be centralized. for example, the certification of the driver, the certification that the car
00:37:00
is safe. It's hard to think about doing that in a fully decentralized way. So, I
00:37:07
believe that there will be kind of a combination of centralization and decentralization in the future that's
00:37:15
really focused on efficiency. And the last thing I will say is that this tension between centralization and
00:37:26
decentralization plays out in in real time uh in the decentralized space even today. So think
00:37:35
about the reliance of decentralized protocols like decentralized exchanges and things like that on centralized
00:37:45
stable coins. So to be clear, the leading stable coins Tether and Circle are centralized. Their token is used in
00:37:56
decentralized finance. We do have decentralized stable coins, but they're smaller. So the success of the
00:38:04
decentralized finance uh kind of platform is greatly reliant upon centralized technologies.
00:38:13
So again I think that uh in the future there will be a balance uh between the centralization and decentralization
00:38:23
that depends on the particular application and the balance will drive the costs to a point that makes it best
00:38:34
for the consumers and the producers and the sellers and the economy uh in general and that's where I hope uh that
00:38:42
we hand up. >> Thank you very much. I certainly agree that this tension between centralization
00:38:47
and decentralization is key to understanding this new wave of uh technologies and potentially the future
00:38:53
of finance and that we will probably end up in some uh middle ground where we have a combination of the two or maybe
00:39:02
partial decentralization. But hopefully it will take us to a much better place in terms of the financial system and how
00:39:09
we uh transact. um with each other. Uh thank you very much uh both Nha and Kim for uh diving
00:39:18
into these topics with us and providing the introduction into the rise of crypto
00:39:23
digital assets and decentralized finance. We're going to continue and talk about these topics in the next uh
00:39:30
few weeks. Uh so uh stay tuned. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks.