Search Captions & Ask AI

Valuing the Customer

January 26, 2016 / 23:11

This episode discusses corporate valuation and customer valuation, featuring a detailed analysis of Dish Network's customer data and its implications for financial practices.

The conversation begins with the integration of traditional corporate valuation methods with customer-based metrics, emphasizing the importance of rigorous data analysis. The guests highlight the lack of communication between marketing and finance professionals, which has hindered the adoption of customer-centric valuation methods.

They share insights from their research on Dish Network, noting that they used publicly available data to estimate the company's value without direct contact with the firm. This approach allows for transparency and replicability in customer-based corporate valuation.

Key findings include the identification of customer lifetime values and the significance of understanding customer heterogeneity. The guests argue that recognizing customers as valuable assets can lead to better financial decision-making and improved corporate strategies.

Finally, they discuss the potential for standardizing customer metrics across industries, aiming to bridge the gap between marketing and finance, and the implications for future research and corporate practices.

TL;DR

The episode focuses on integrating customer valuation with corporate valuation using Dish Network as a case study.

Episode

23:11
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this paper brings together two topics
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one very old and well established and
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one that's new and emerging the old
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topic is Corporate valuation everybody's
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talking about how you look at a
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corporation and value it the new topic
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is customer valuation can we look at
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individual customers or groups of
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customers and say what they're going to
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be worth in the future what this paper's
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all about is bringing the two together
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in a really rigorous and and practical
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Real World Way can we do corporate
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valuation from the bottom up by looking
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at the value of current and future
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customers adding all that up and saying
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that's the value of the corporation that
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basic idea has been around for a while
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it's been done by a few marketers in the
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past but it's never had the real rigor
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to win over the the respect of let's say
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Financial people and accountants uh
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that's what we're trying to do the right
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way so it's it's customer-based
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corporate valuation but done with with
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all the rigor with all just the really
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high standards and careful use of data
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that accountants and and financial
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professionals would respect of there
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really have been kind of two silos of of
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work here you the one in the marketing
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domain and the one in the financial
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domain and the financial domain has
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really kind of hammered home you know
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how you value a business by you know
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projecting forward free cash flows
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discounting those back doing all those
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kind of nitty-gritty little Financial
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details all in a in a very precise and
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theoretically correct way so we want to
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make sure to really draw upon that you
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know know take this problem that really
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has been solved in finance and apply it
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in this you know marketing domain you
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know where you perhaps uh some of the
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financial details have been a little bit
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looser one of the really interesting
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aspects of This research is that we did
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this valuation exercise for Dish
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Networks big publicly traded company
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many people especially in the US would
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have heard of it the most interesting
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part about it is that we have had no
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contact with anyone at Dish Network I
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have never exchanged emails phone calls
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gotten data from anyone at dish this is
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using purely publicly available data so
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the data that we use anybody could get
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access to uh and in fact the methods
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that we're using are fairly common and
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transparent as well so there's really no
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secret sauce black magic here it's just
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taking publicly available data
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reasonably wellestablished methodss but
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just combining them in what one might
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call a clever but at least thoughtful
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way in order to come up with this kind
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of valuation and because we've done it
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in this case for a company again that
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we've had no contact with there's no
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reason why we couldn't repeat this
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exercise for other companies that make
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similar kinds of data available yeah the
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other thing that we're going to do to
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kind of capitalize on you know we think
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is a very fundamental methodology here
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is make all this available you know both
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we're going to be collecting data not
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only on Dish Network but also on many
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other companies that also disclose uh
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the sort of metrics that we need to
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perform customer-based corporate
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valuation so we're going to release the
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data make that available to everyone so
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they can perform the same exercises
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themselves and also release the
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methodology so that people can actually
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Implement these models too you we really
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want to democratize this and make this
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kind of core concept of valuing the
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company by valuing the customers of
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widespread yeah so we decided to perform
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work on Dish Network really kind of by
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happen stance uh there was no cherry
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picking involved we didn't say let's
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find all the companies that this works
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for and then Whittle it down to the ones
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where our model fits no you we basically
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just pick dish just because it was one
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of the first companies that you know we
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happened to find a decently long time
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series for we actually didn't even know
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how long the time series was when we
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first began uh working on the company so
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we definitely have a very kind of I
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almost call it like a pipeline type
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procedure for whittling down and
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identifying companies that you know you
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could perform this analysis on uh I
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think that process in and of itself has
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been quite interesting basically we
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identify Universe of companies there's
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all the compan in the stock market and
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some percentage of them basically say
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words in their filings specifically the
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10K and the 10 q that indicate that they
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may release customer data the sort of
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customer metrics that that we would need
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so we identify all those companies and
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we then go down and perform this
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validation step where we kind of Whittle
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those companies down to the list that
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actually disclosed the metrics and now
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we have a team of uh great Wharton
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students here in undergrad as well as a
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a few colleagues in India who've been
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working with us to actually turn that
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into raw data sets for each of those
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each of those companies so dish is just
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one example but uh there's many others
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we found at least 35 that um also
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disclose the sort of data that we would
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need to to fit these models for so the
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real key here would be what kinds of
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statements companies put out about the
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the number or the nature of their
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customers it could be how many customers
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they've acquired or how many customers
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they have at the end of the period some
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companies will go further and say
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something about their retention rate or
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their churn rate and and some kind of
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derived measure that that take some of
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the raw count data and turns it into
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some kind of more diagnostic metric we
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would rather work with the raw data we
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just want to know how many customers
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came in how long they stayed around how
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many were there at any given point in
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time uh right now there are absolutely
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no standards for disclosing any of this
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data or how it would be disclosed one of
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the things that we want to do is to
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start toate create some of those
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standards it's not the objective of this
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particular paper but if we can shine
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light on the value of these customer
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metrics and how they can be useful to
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marketers to finance people to people
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throughout organizations then maybe
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we'll start to have a conversation about
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which metrics would be reported how they
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would be defined how often they would be
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reported uh and standards around the the
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derived metrics that come off of them as
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well so it's very very early and none of
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that has really happened yet in any kind
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of formal way but we're hoping that this
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is the first step in that direction
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uh I'd say the big one is the procedure
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really does work you know you can
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perform this you can project out the
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cash flows but now we're augmenting that
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you know kind of core financial model
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that you would use if you were just
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working at an investment Bank
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incorporate this customer metric data
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and use that to get an even more precise
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estimate of how much these companies are
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worth we arrived at a price that was
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within something on the order of 5% of
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what the company had been trading at at
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the time they disclosed uh the filing
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that we would have used to train our
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model on so we were very happy with the
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fact that you know without really any
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sort of jimming around with the numbers
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uh we were able to come up with a very
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sensible valuation for the firm uh there
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were a number of other interesting
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findings you know for example you really
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do need
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to allow for the fact that different
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customers are are different from each
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other you have some who are valuable
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some who are are not so valuable you
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some who want to leave immediately and
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some who are going to stay around for
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for a very very long period of time so
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even though these companies don't
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disclose this sort of data you know we
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were able to infer that dish for example
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they had a kind of a hardcore loyal
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segment of about you know 15% of the
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customers that have been around for over
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10 years just very very long term so by
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allowing for different customers to have
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different values uh we arrived at a much
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higher valuation than we would have had
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we done kind of the standard thing
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within marketing which is to kind of
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assume that all customers are kind of
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like the average customer customer that
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would kind of leave you with a price
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that's much much lower than you know
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what the company had been selling for at
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the time anyone who knows my work knows
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that I celebrate heterogenity I love to
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find and exploit and explain and talk
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about the importance of differences
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across customers this project is quite
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different because we have no direct
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indications of heterogeneity we have no
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ability to track individual customers to
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say oh this one left after a month this
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one left after 10 years we have no data
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like that we just have aggregated counts
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of how many customers came in at a given
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time and how many were present at at the
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end of a given period we need to infer
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the heterogeneity we need to fit models
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to this very poor very sparse overly
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aggregated data and infer our best guess
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about how the customers differ from each
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other not only is that essential for us
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to come up with accurate valuations but
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it leads to all kinds of very very
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useful Diagnostics that managers whether
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it's of Dish Network or another firm
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could really make great decisions from
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so for instance we think about the 8020
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rule that a small fraction of our
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customers are going to capture a
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disproportionate value from the
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corporation it's it's a really valid
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concept I spend a lot of my time trying
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to take a company's internal data to try
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to uncover the 8020 rule is it really as
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concentrated as 8020 or maybe it's it's
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less concentrated than that in this case
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we don't have the data to do that but we
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do it anyway because we're building
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really good models on the sparse data we
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can still make inferences about how long
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different kinds of customers have stayed
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around we find out in this particular
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case our best guess is that it's it's
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far less concentrated than 8020 but
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still there's a good deal of het gen8
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and if we ignore it our valuations and
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our ability to make kind of action
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oriented statements about the company
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would be way
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off one of the most interesting
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conclusions from our work actually
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doesn't appear in the paper in a lot of
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the work that I do we like to make hold
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out forecast let's look at the models
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that we've built and project what sales
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or whatever is going to be in the future
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and see how well we do and we tend to do
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pretty well but in this case besides
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just coming up with with forecasts on
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our own there already exists a universe
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of forecasts which is to say Wall Street
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analysts so we have thousands of of Wall
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Street analysts or at least dozens of
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people who on a very regular basis are
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making statements about what the
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earnings of Dish Network or any publicly
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traded company is going to be one
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quarter two quarter sometimes two years
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from from now well we can compare our
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models against their own models or
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judgment or forecast and keep in mind
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these are people whose jobs depend on
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coming up with reasonably accurate
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forecasts so one of the things that we
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did and again because the paper is so
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rich there's so much going on we
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actually didn't include it in there but
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we're always happy to talk about it is
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we compared our own forecast to those of
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the Wall Street analysts and on average
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they were actually considerably more
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accurate uh as showing that not to say
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that the Wall Street analysts do a bad
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job but some of these very simple
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marketing models applied to relatively
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simple sparse data can do at least a
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good a job as folks who have access to
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the CEO and and and and uh and data that
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that we couldn't even imagine having
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yeah the Crux of this work is really
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coming up with customer lifetime values
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so we're going to take our crystal ball
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out and we're going to project forward
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what every customer is going to do into
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the infinite future and you know really
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that's kind of what's driving this model
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for you know what revenues are going to
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be and thus what the stock price is
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going to be and what's most surprising
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is that even when we're making such
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short-term forecast we're able to do so
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well you know so essentially to come up
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with a stock price that's more of a
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long-term game but we're actually able
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to do very well uh kind of doing
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short-term predictions as well so that
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was definitely very striking to
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me I've been spending a lot of time
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lately talking about customer centricity
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trying to get companies to understand
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there's gold in them their Hills when it
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comes to the customer data and it can
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not only improve their marketing
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practices but pretty much every part of
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the organization we can make better
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decisions about how our sales people are
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doing about what kind of products we
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develop how well our production people
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are doing and on the finance side as
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well so for me this idea of
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customer-based corporate valuation has
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been kind of a a Holy Grail I've been
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going after that if I can win over the
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CFO and other people who are running the
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finance accounting and and control parts
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of the business then I can get these
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strategic ideas of customer centricity
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to spread much more broadly much more
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impactfully throughout the organization
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so for me it it really is reaching out
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and saying hey Finance guys a lot of the
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stuff that I've been talking about to
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the marketing people it's relevant for
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you too and it will help you make better
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decisions about your company and maybe
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your competitors and so there I've been
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really happy to see the results but of
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course it's much more than just that
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yeah one of the other kind of practical
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implications is you kind of just
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speaking from a financial standpoint
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I've been a hedge fund for a number of
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years before coming back seeing the
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light and going to to Academia so you
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can take the warten kit out of Finance
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but you can't take the finance out of
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the Wharton kid uh but you could
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definitely construct some sort of a
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trading strategy to be able to exploit
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this data systematically across all the
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companies that disclose it so again
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there's on the order of you know say 00
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companies let's say uh in the entire
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universe who disclose enough data to be
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able to construct some sort of
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customer-based valuation model uh the
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idea would be you could find some
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companies that seem overvalued and some
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that seem undervalued uh just by the
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results that the models entail for each
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of those individual companies so buy the
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ones that are cheap sell the ones that
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are expensive you know you're not taking
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on any any real risk U I think such a
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strategy could be potentially very
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interesting and in turn that makes it
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very interesting for the executives of
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those firms knowing that you know people
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are buying and selling their stocks
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based on this information so the whole
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idea of standardizing these metrics
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making sure that you're improving the
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the health of your business kind of from
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a a Bottoms Up way you know making sure
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your customer metrics are strong I think
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it just reinforces something that they
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really probably know they should be
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doing in any case as Dan mentioned
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there's all kinds of interesting hedge
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fund possibilities and a lot of folks
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who are managing hedge funds or working
00:13:48
with corporate valuation other ways have
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been looking very carefully at this work
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I want to say right now that I'm a
00:13:53
marketing guy I have no intention of
00:13:55
developing a hedge fund if other folks
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want to take this research and do it
00:13:58
that's great I'll find that really
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rewarding even if I don't have a piece
00:14:01
of it for me it's it's more about
00:14:04
corporate strategy more generally it's
00:14:05
more about making better use of the data
00:14:07
assets that we have for me the big
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payoff would be if if folks with hedge
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funds and other investors go pounding on
00:14:13
the doors of other public corporation
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saying You must reveal some of these
00:14:17
other uh customer oriented metrics that
00:14:19
we can't make the right decisions unless
00:14:21
you do so and maybe for accounting
00:14:23
standards boards to start to to Make
00:14:25
Some Noise about that as well so if we
00:14:27
can change the kind of data that's being
00:14:29
put out there and the kind of
00:14:30
conversations that are having Beyond
00:14:32
just the making money thing I want to
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change business practices and and the
00:14:35
kinds of data that we look at and the
00:14:37
way that we use it say one other very
00:14:39
practical implication is there's a whole
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stream budding stream of research about
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basically if I'm going to spend uh
00:14:46
marketing dollars to acquire customers
00:14:48
should I take that hit on my income
00:14:50
statement immediately or should I
00:14:52
capitalize that as an asset because I'm
00:14:54
acquiring these customers who are worth
00:14:56
a lot of money uh you know part of our
00:14:58
research is showing just how valuable
00:14:59
these customers are and one of the
00:15:01
implications is they're going to stay
00:15:03
around for a very long period of time so
00:15:05
we come up with an estimate that the
00:15:07
average customer at dish is going to
00:15:09
remain a customer for about 5.5 years
00:15:12
that's that's very very long and you
00:15:14
have some customers who are going to be
00:15:15
around for over 10 years so if I'm going
00:15:18
to spend subscriber acquisition expense
00:15:20
dollars yeah I really I'm investing in
00:15:23
an asset you know these customers are
00:15:25
assets but they're not acknowledged as
00:15:26
such so I think over 80% of Dish's
00:15:30
subscriber acquisition costs are
00:15:32
immediately expensed um and as a result
00:15:35
you know they kind of take the hit and
00:15:37
of profits don't look as good in the
00:15:39
short term so you know there's been work
00:15:42
by people like Shuba shason at Boston
00:15:44
University uh who are kind of saying
00:15:47
that doesn't really jive with the
00:15:48
underlying economics of the business if
00:15:50
I'm going to spend money and I'm going
00:15:52
to basically acquire an asset uh I
00:15:55
should be able to recognize the asset
00:15:58
and kind of have the expense associated
00:16:00
with the asset bleed away as the as the
00:16:03
assets value bleeds away so you know we
00:16:05
think that this kind of dovetails very
00:16:06
nicely with that stream of
00:16:12
research we see these ginormous
00:16:14
Acquisitions taking place in many cases
00:16:16
where where one company is buying
00:16:18
another largely because of their
00:16:20
customer base so you can think about
00:16:21
when Facebook bought what's app or just
00:16:24
endless rumors about Yahoo and AOL we're
00:16:27
just buying the customer base but what
00:16:29
are those customers worth well that's
00:16:31
what this research is all about and it's
00:16:32
interesting to see sometimes in the
00:16:35
Press you'll see kind of back of the
00:16:37
envelope calculations about what One
00:16:39
customer base is worth and they're
00:16:40
appalling the the the analyses that
00:16:42
they're doing are terrible the numbers
00:16:44
that they're coming up with are way way
00:16:45
off so we like the idea that people are
00:16:48
are having that kind of conversation but
00:16:50
we want to make it a little bit more
00:16:51
educated we want the answers to those
00:16:53
questions to be as rigorous as the kinds
00:16:56
of things that we would expect to see in
00:16:57
a conversation about Finance and
00:16:59
Accounting not kind of lightweight
00:17:01
approximations that might be Associated
00:17:04
more with marketing yeah so one example
00:17:06
that's been in the news lately is kind
00:17:08
of on the topic Dish Network uh they're
00:17:11
in the news about potentially being
00:17:13
acquired or merging with other company
00:17:16
so you know they've been in the news
00:17:17
themselves of you trying to find a
00:17:19
partner in some way to move forward so I
00:17:22
think this is a perfect example of how
00:17:24
customer-based Corporate valuation could
00:17:26
be useful actually for the company that
00:17:28
that you know we specifically are
00:17:30
looking at now our research is all about
00:17:32
valuing the customers so all these other
00:17:35
assets that the company may have that
00:17:37
you know really aren't coming from the
00:17:38
value of the customers we'll leave that
00:17:40
to the to the finance guys but
00:17:42
specifically for the value of the
00:17:43
customers we think there's real gold in
00:17:46
basically looking at them kind of the
00:17:48
way that that we are and all the better
00:17:50
if we had internal company data we could
00:17:52
just make those you know uh forecasts
00:17:55
even more precise but you know we think
00:17:58
even with this Network itself there's
00:18:00
definitely real potential to think about
00:18:01
it in this
00:18:05
way yeah I'd say perhaps one of the
00:18:08
biggest misperceptions that we've seen
00:18:09
is not acknowledging the Paramount
00:18:12
importance of the value of the customer
00:18:14
to the value of the firm really
00:18:16
establishing that link and then just
00:18:17
focusing on the value of the customers
00:18:19
I'd say perhaps one of the most striking
00:18:21
examples of this is just in the
00:18:23
accounting rules themselves so if a
00:18:25
company was to buy a chair and put it
00:18:28
right down over here like we're sitting
00:18:30
in now they would be able to capitalize
00:18:32
that as an asset on their balance sheet
00:18:34
and they don't recognize an expense
00:18:36
immediately but if I was to spend money
00:18:38
to acquire a customer that customer
00:18:41
doesn't show up anywhere they're called
00:18:42
an intangible asset and one of the
00:18:45
interesting byproducts of our research
00:18:47
is that for Dish example for example
00:18:50
these customers are expected to
00:18:52
basically stay with the firm for about
00:18:54
5.5 years so they have very very long
00:18:56
useful lives and in fact dish in
00:18:59
particular their example of the chair is
00:19:01
is the actual dish itself so the money
00:19:04
that they spend on these dishes that you
00:19:05
see uh they're able to capitalize and
00:19:08
they have a useful life of only four
00:19:10
years so actually you have this kind of
00:19:12
striking example It's Like A Tale of Two
00:19:13
Worlds that you have this kind of inert
00:19:17
object that has a short useful life I'm
00:19:19
able to capitalize that but you know
00:19:21
here are these valuable customers that
00:19:23
are generating cash flow over very long
00:19:25
periods of time and I need to expense
00:19:27
that immediately so we think that's
00:19:29
you know really something that should be
00:19:30
looked into more carefully another
00:19:33
important point that the paper addresses
00:19:34
would be the the gap or I'd rather say
00:19:36
the Synergy between marketing and
00:19:39
finance that that marketers will often
00:19:41
talk about this idea of customers as
00:19:43
assets we often say almost just in a
00:19:44
purely conceptual way if we add up the
00:19:47
value of the customers boom we get the
00:19:48
value of the corporation and and while
00:19:50
it's it's a nice idea we haven't seen
00:19:53
work so far that has really won over the
00:19:56
Finance and Accounting Community say
00:19:57
yeah you know what there there really is
00:19:59
something there now I'm happy to say
00:20:01
that there have been a few Mavericks in
00:20:02
Finance and Accounting who have been
00:20:04
saying some of these words but it hasn't
00:20:06
really become mainstream yet we're
00:20:08
hoping that this paper not because it's
00:20:10
coming out of marketing but just because
00:20:11
of the of of the rigor involved on the
00:20:14
data side on the analysis on the
00:20:16
substantive implications is going to win
00:20:18
over broad interest from folks in all
00:20:20
different business disciplines and say
00:20:22
you know what the marketing folks really
00:20:23
do have something to add to the Finance
00:20:25
and Accounting conversation and of
00:20:27
course Finance and Accounting have a lot
00:20:28
to add to marketing if we can break down
00:20:30
stereotypes if we can break down silos
00:20:32
and make everybody across the
00:20:34
organization not only smarter but but
00:20:36
looking at the same kinds of metrics
00:20:38
then that's got to be a great thing for
00:20:43
shareholders so all the work thus far
00:20:45
has basically been to value a single
00:20:47
company so we lay out a framework and
00:20:49
then we apply it to a company we want to
00:20:51
show in the next paper that essentially
00:20:53
you can apply this across many many many
00:20:55
companies along two Dimensions you know
00:20:57
one it's not just rehashing the same
00:20:59
analysis that we did for one company you
00:21:01
know a 100 times over it's really that
00:21:03
there's a whole broad spectrum of data
00:21:06
availability these different companies
00:21:07
some that have disclosed a lot some that
00:21:09
have disclosed very little and there's
00:21:12
actually a whole heck of a lot of
00:21:13
information that you can learn about
00:21:15
those companies that may not have
00:21:16
disclosed very much when you kind of
00:21:18
look at the patterns across companies so
00:21:20
we want to bring all those companies
00:21:21
together in what they call a basian
00:21:23
hierarchical model and be able to fill
00:21:25
in a lot more of the blanks for
00:21:26
companies where the data is not so good
00:21:28
and apply this in a systematic way
00:21:30
across all of them
00:21:32
simultaneously another big question is
00:21:34
what metrics should be disclosed right
00:21:37
now we're limited by what companies such
00:21:39
as Dish Network choose to disclose but
00:21:40
are those the right kinds of metrics
00:21:42
that investors should be demanding and
00:21:44
would it be the same kinds of metrics
00:21:45
for every kind of business so an
00:21:47
important caveat of this work is that
00:21:49
we've only looked at companies that
00:21:51
operate in a contractual setting where
00:21:53
we sign customers up they pay on some
00:21:55
regular basis and then they go and the
00:21:57
company knows that they left it's
00:21:59
observable churn so this model applies
00:22:01
to pretty much any contractual setting
00:22:03
and that's great but there's many
00:22:05
companies out there such as Amazon or a
00:22:07
grocery store where there's no formal
00:22:09
contract where people just kind of buy
00:22:11
things on an occasional basis and then
00:22:13
there's this long Gap and the company is
00:22:15
left wondering is that customer gone or
00:22:19
are they just taking a snooze between
00:22:21
purchases if you're in a non-contractual
00:22:23
setting what would be the right kind of
00:22:25
data that should be disclosed again if
00:22:27
you're an investor in a non-contractual
00:22:29
company and you're pounding on the door
00:22:31
to that company uh what data are you
00:22:32
going to be demanding for them to
00:22:33
disclose it's going to be different
00:22:35
kinds of metrics so we want to have a
00:22:37
broader understanding about what are the
00:22:39
right kinds of metrics that should be
00:22:40
disclosed in different kinds of business
00:22:41
settings and then of course what kind of
00:22:43
analysis would we lay on top of it in
00:22:45
order to do the corporate valuation
00:22:58
[Music]

Episode Highlights

  • Customer Valuation Meets Corporate Valuation
    This paper explores the integration of customer valuation into corporate valuation, aiming to provide a rigorous methodology.
    “Can we look at individual customers and say what they're going to be worth?”
    @ 00m 17s
    January 26, 2016
  • Democratizing Valuation Methods
    The research aims to make customer-based corporate valuation accessible to everyone by releasing data and methodologies.
    “We want to democratize this and make this kind of core concept widespread.”
    @ 03m 06s
    January 26, 2016
  • The Holy Grail of Valuation
    The concept of customer-based corporate valuation is described as a 'Holy Grail' for better business decisions.
    “Customer-based corporate valuation has been kind of a Holy Grail.”
    @ 11m 49s
    January 26, 2016
  • The Value of Customers
    Understanding the paramount importance of customer value to a firm's overall worth.
    “We’ve seen is not acknowledging the Paramount importance of the value of the customer.”
    @ 18m 08s
    January 26, 2016
  • A Tale of Two Worlds
    Contrasting the capitalization of tangible assets versus the treatment of customer value.
    “It's like a tale of two worlds.”
    @ 19m 12s
    January 26, 2016
  • Bridging Marketing and Finance
    The need for collaboration between marketing and finance to recognize customer value.
    “We hope this paper will win over broad interest from folks in all different business disciplines.”
    @ 20m 18s
    January 26, 2016

Episode Quotes

  • Can we look at individual customers and say what they're going to be worth?
    Valuing the Customer
  • We want to democratize this and make this kind of core concept widespread.
    Valuing the Customer
  • There's gold in them their Hills when it comes to customer data.
    Valuing the Customer
  • If I can win over the CFO, I can get these strategic ideas to spread.
    Valuing the Customer
  • There's real gold in valuing customers.
    Valuing the Customer
  • We want to break down silos and make everyone smarter.
    Valuing the Customer

Key Moments

  • Customer Insights00:17
  • Democratization of Data03:06
  • Customer Centricity11:27
  • Valuation Methodology11:49
  • Financial Implications12:40
  • Customer Valuation17:43
  • Accounting Discrepancies18:30
  • Marketing-Finance Synergy19:36

Words per Minute Over Time

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