00:00:00
structurally when you've got some people
00:00:01
in the office and some people not in the
00:00:03
office it creates real variation in
00:00:06
people's experiences of work and in
00:00:08
their ability to work together and
00:00:10
fundamentally I think there's two big
00:00:12
components that are kind of important
00:00:14
because they both create power
00:00:15
differences between people who are in
00:00:17
the office and people who are not right
00:00:18
and one is people's access to resources
00:00:21
and the other is visibility right if
00:00:23
you're in the office you probably have
00:00:24
more visibility to your manager welcome
00:00:27
to the ripple effect the podcast that
00:00:29
takes you on a journey through the minds
00:00:31
of work and faculty I'm your host Dan
00:00:33
Loney and in each episode we'll be
00:00:35
diving deep into the inspiration behind
00:00:37
the groundbreaking research that Wharton
00:00:39
professors have conducted and exploring
00:00:42
how their findings resonate with the
00:00:44
world today well great to be joined
00:00:46
right now by Martine Haas who is a
00:00:48
management professor at the Wharton
00:00:50
School and also director of the Lauder
00:00:51
Institute for management and
00:00:53
International Studies Martine great to
00:00:55
have you back with us thanks for a few
00:00:57
moments today thanks it's great to see
00:00:59
you Dan so the topic of hybrid work is
00:01:02
obviously one that I think for most of
00:01:04
us going back three or four years really
00:01:07
wasn't in our vernacular but now here we
00:01:09
are the pandemic has you know for the
00:01:11
most part come and gone what are your
00:01:13
thoughts on kind of the state of hybrid
00:01:15
work right now in in the moment but also
00:01:19
maybe what your expectations are for
00:01:21
hybrid work as we move forward
00:01:24
well it's a great question I guess it's
00:01:26
the million dollar question that's on
00:01:27
everybody's Minds um you know this the
00:01:30
state of hybrid work right now in some
00:01:33
ways looks surprisingly and I don't want
00:01:35
to use the word stable but you know it
00:01:37
looks strong I guess
00:01:39
um in the sense of you know even in the
00:01:41
last six months only the last year or so
00:01:43
it feels like a lot of organizations
00:01:45
have kind of converged on hybrid work as
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you know a sweet spot I kind of think of
00:01:50
it as it's not it's not perfect but it's
00:01:53
kind of a good compromise between the
00:01:56
the tensions and the benefits that we
00:01:58
see to workers who might want to be
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remote more of the time
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um some might want to be in the office
00:02:03
but a lot do you want to be remote into
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managers who might want to be remote but
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a lot of times want their folks in the
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office and so it's it feels like it's a
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compromise that both sides have kind of
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come to even the firms that were kind of
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strongly you know we're going to let
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everyone be remote they've kind of
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realized wow we're losing some stuff
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maybe we kind of need to do more things
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together and on the other hand the firms
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that have been you know let's be
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completely and not uh you know
00:02:26
completely in the office of realize that
00:02:27
work is really like the strong pressures
00:02:30
to let people work hybrid at least some
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of the time so it feels like we've
00:02:35
settled into something of a routine in
00:02:37
many companies where which looks hybrid
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right where people are in the office
00:02:40
some days and not others and it's it's
00:02:43
it's likely given that there are
00:02:45
benefits on both sides and reasons to do
00:02:47
both so we will this will be the way it
00:02:49
looks for at least the foreseeable
00:02:51
future right now
00:02:52
so you mentioned managers and and I
00:02:55
guess let's start there with because
00:02:57
managers in the scope of the operation
00:03:00
of a company and and the employees
00:03:03
certainly have a lot to deal with I
00:03:05
guess what is it that we need to know to
00:03:07
better understand how managers are going
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to be able to deal with the component of
00:03:12
hybrid work in terms of running their
00:03:15
their divisions their operations
00:03:18
well there's a lot to know I guess um
00:03:21
but you know I think one really
00:03:23
fundamental underlying thing that we
00:03:26
need to recognize because it affects so
00:03:27
much else what happens is that
00:03:29
structurally when you've got some people
00:03:31
in the office and some people not in the
00:03:33
office it creates real variation in
00:03:36
people's experiences of work and in
00:03:39
their ability to work together and and
00:03:41
fundamentally you know that I think
00:03:43
there's there's two big components that
00:03:45
are kind of important because they both
00:03:47
create power differences between people
00:03:49
who are in the office and people who are
00:03:50
not right and one is people's access to
00:03:52
resources right the resources are
00:03:55
whether it's it's the photocopier or the
00:03:57
manager's ear or with support of advice
00:03:59
from other workers you have more of
00:04:01
those resources if you're in the office
00:04:03
with other people usually than if you're
00:04:04
at home this is assuming some people are
00:04:06
working payments some people are in the
00:04:07
office you know at any given point in
00:04:09
time and the other is visibility right
00:04:11
if you're in the office you probably
00:04:12
have more visibility to your manager
00:04:14
probably your managers in the office too
00:04:16
but even if they're not other people are
00:04:17
seeing it you know hearing your work and
00:04:19
you know they're more it's more obvious
00:04:20
what you're doing and so resources and
00:04:22
visibility matter because their basis of
00:04:24
power in organizations where people who
00:04:26
have more of them tend to have more
00:04:27
power and that tends to mean that we
00:04:29
when you you know are in the office more
00:04:31
you kind of have more access to some
00:04:32
other stuff and maybe more power than
00:04:34
people who are in the office less
00:04:36
particularly people who are never in the
00:04:38
office but people who are in the office
00:04:40
there saw a given day or any given week
00:04:42
um and so I think managers need to sort
00:04:45
of start with that fundamental
00:04:46
recognition that people are just in
00:04:48
different structural positions and as a
00:04:50
result
00:04:51
all is not equal right it's an unequal
00:04:53
playing field and that means that we
00:04:55
need to develop ways of competencies
00:04:58
around managing that it doesn't have to
00:05:00
be a bad thing and as I mentioned before
00:05:02
there's lots of advantages to it
00:05:04
um but it needs to it needs to be
00:05:07
actively managed and people need to have
00:05:09
you know have recognition and assistance
00:05:11
in building the competencies to manage
00:05:13
that situation whether they're prepared
00:05:15
people who are watching about the other
00:05:16
people in the office both of them and
00:05:18
the managers so does technology as part
00:05:22
of kind of the the overall mix here does
00:05:24
technology make it easier or harder for
00:05:27
the manager to be able to do a lot of
00:05:29
those things and it may be you know it
00:05:31
may depend on manager to manager how
00:05:33
they react to the use of zoom and and
00:05:36
and texting and all of these different
00:05:38
components that we now use more often
00:05:41
yeah I think of course technology makes
00:05:43
it easier oh we wouldn't be doing it at
00:05:45
all right and the reason why hybrid work
00:05:47
is now so widespread when it really
00:05:49
didn't even you know as you say it
00:05:51
wasn't even part of our vernacular for
00:05:52
either four or five years ago
00:05:54
um is is because of Technology without
00:05:56
question right and the fact that Zoom
00:05:58
you know came along and not only that it
00:06:01
came along but that we all shot up that
00:06:03
learning curve to a level that everybody
00:06:05
even the the least technologically adapt
00:06:07
managers could basically manage symbols
00:06:09
now right and that has enabled this in a
00:06:11
way that it just wouldn't have happened
00:06:12
not nearly so fast otherwise we already
00:06:14
had a lot of this technology and it
00:06:15
wasn't happening so fast so technology
00:06:17
makes it all possible but it doesn't
00:06:20
make it all perfect
00:06:22
um and I think there's a tendency to
00:06:23
recognize sorry not to recognize that
00:06:27
some of the imperfections are things
00:06:28
that really need attention right and
00:06:30
there's all sorts of stuff that happens
00:06:31
when we rely on technology unthinkingly
00:06:34
um that can be pretty dysfunctional
00:06:36
actually for our ability to work
00:06:37
together effectively collaborate things
00:06:39
down the best possible way
00:06:41
so when you're talking about the the
00:06:43
idea of hybrid work there are a couple
00:06:46
of different components I think that you
00:06:48
have to bring up one being this idea of
00:06:50
of flexible hybrid and the other being
00:06:53
kind of a a fixed hybrid if you can't
00:06:56
take us through both of those and and
00:06:58
differentiate the one from the other
00:07:00
yeah I mean I think it's it's a pretty
00:07:02
um simple distinction the fixed hybrid
00:07:04
just kind of means that idea that some
00:07:06
people are always in the office and you
00:07:09
know there most of the time and if not
00:07:10
all the time whereas some people are
00:07:12
always remote right and that's a pretty
00:07:14
you know extreme version of the
00:07:15
situation but we do see that a lot um in
00:07:18
many organizations uh whereas the
00:07:20
flexible hybrid is when you're kind of
00:07:21
somebody the same person is in the
00:07:23
office some days and out of the office
00:07:25
other days of the week right and I think
00:07:27
the distinction is important just to say
00:07:29
that the the flexible hybrid I think is
00:07:31
less problematic or you you're able to
00:07:33
work through more of the issues and see
00:07:35
more of the issues that come up when
00:07:36
you've got people coming in and out of
00:07:38
the opposite creates a lot of its own
00:07:39
you know issues too but at least you're
00:07:42
not having people who are never there
00:07:43
and people who are always there because
00:07:45
when you have that situation the fixed
00:07:46
hybrid some of these sort of
00:07:49
um
00:07:49
tensions or divisions or potentially
00:07:51
potential golfs and understanding and so
00:07:54
on are much more extreme than when
00:07:56
you've got people coming in and out and
00:07:57
and I think in the reality is that many
00:07:59
organizations have seen that and a lot
00:08:01
of a lot of companies are using um the
00:08:03
flexible hybrid where people are coming
00:08:04
in and out you know during the weeks or
00:08:06
in part because of those reasons does it
00:08:09
does it bring you into play a component
00:08:11
of the the the playing field not being
00:08:14
level uh for all individuals because of
00:08:18
these Dynamics being different from one
00:08:20
another
00:08:21
yeah so the Plainfield is particularly
00:08:23
unlevel when you are in this fixed
00:08:26
hybrid system where some people never
00:08:28
come in and other people are always in
00:08:29
because there you really you know some
00:08:31
people who have consistently more access
00:08:33
to resources and visibility to high
00:08:35
level management than the people that
00:08:37
were more remote right and so you know I
00:08:39
think there are the sort of issues about
00:08:41
the the lack of levelness in the playing
00:08:43
field are really important to recognize
00:08:46
um in a hybrid system or in a remote
00:08:48
work system where people some people
00:08:50
have more of this than others right or
00:08:52
more access to some of these species of
00:08:54
power
00:08:55
um and but but it's also the case and
00:08:58
important to recognize that some people
00:08:59
may be worse affected by the same sort
00:09:01
of distance as others rather than others
00:09:04
so if you have people who uh you know so
00:09:07
I've written a bit about women right in
00:09:09
the workplace
00:09:10
um who may have a natural disadvantage
00:09:12
in some sense in a male dominated
00:09:14
workplace for example
00:09:16
um in terms of whether they speak up as
00:09:18
much or listen to as much or give them
00:09:20
the best assignments or I've meant to as
00:09:21
much even when you're working all
00:09:23
together in the office now when you add
00:09:25
that to what we call a remote work
00:09:27
penalty right we know that some of these
00:09:29
issues happen when you work remotely
00:09:30
right you're less likely to have access
00:09:32
to mentoring it may be harder to network
00:09:34
it may be harder to get the best
00:09:35
assignments it may be harder to speak up
00:09:36
and you're giving you a couple of those
00:09:38
two things together there might be
00:09:39
particular people well I just did a
00:09:41
woman as one example but they're not the
00:09:42
only example who are particularly
00:09:44
disadvantaged structurally
00:09:46
um unless we take you know unless we're
00:09:48
really aware of this and work hard to
00:09:51
kind of offset these disadvantages and I
00:09:52
want to say it doesn't mean that it's a
00:09:54
bad idea for women to work remotely or
00:09:56
anybody else right I think there's
00:09:58
really great reasons why a woman at a
00:10:01
particular career stage in Canada
00:10:03
particular life stage might choose to
00:10:06
work remotely but you should recognize
00:10:08
that you need to recognize and I just
00:10:10
need to recognize that and come with
00:10:12
what we call a double disadvantage of
00:10:14
sort of being a little bit disappointed
00:10:15
anyway and then you've got the remote
00:10:16
work penalty on top of it and let me
00:10:18
just add again not just women right so
00:10:20
it can be underrepresented minorities it
00:10:23
can be junior folks who you know don't
00:10:25
really know their way around the
00:10:26
organization very well
00:10:28
um are relatively new it might be um
00:10:30
non-native language speakers who don't
00:10:32
feel that comfortable even face to face
00:10:34
never mind when they're working remotely
00:10:35
as well right in dinner in an
00:10:37
organizational setting so for all sorts
00:10:40
of people it's important to recognize
00:10:42
that you know remote work has trade-offs
00:10:45
and have some real benefits again but it
00:10:47
can also be disadvantageous in a way
00:10:50
that we may or may not recognize that we
00:10:52
need to recognize that we're not kind of
00:10:53
systematically disadvantage those people
00:10:55
so so there are specific elements to
00:10:57
specific challenges I should say uh of
00:11:01
of hybrid work remote work because of
00:11:04
the way that it is set up
00:11:07
yeah I think there are you know you've
00:11:08
got this kind of the fundamental kind of
00:11:10
lack of levelness in the playing field
00:11:12
and that plays itself out in a lot of
00:11:14
different ways right so
00:11:17
um I have that I've been using this
00:11:18
framework a lot with some of the
00:11:19
executives I teach um called the five
00:11:21
C's or the fire that also there are many
00:11:24
there are others too but these capture
00:11:25
some of the most important I think
00:11:27
challenges that we see kind of emerging
00:11:29
as a result of this lack of levelness of
00:11:31
the playing field right and so the five
00:11:33
seas are around I mean some of these are
00:11:36
very familiar To Us by at this point
00:11:38
communication coordination connection
00:11:41
creativity and culture right and so each
00:11:45
of those
00:11:47
um are you know have have the special
00:11:49
challenges as a result of being of when
00:11:52
you work in a hybrid system of course
00:11:54
they all have their challenges even when
00:11:55
you're not hybrid right but the fact
00:11:57
that you have some people in the in the
00:11:59
workplace in the office and some people
00:12:00
not
00:12:01
um can create particular challenge
00:12:03
challenges around each of those five C's
00:12:04
but it seems like culture is the one
00:12:07
that is drawing a lot of attention these
00:12:10
days and thinking about kind of the
00:12:12
structure of what a company or what a
00:12:14
manager wants around the office Place
00:12:15
fair to say
00:12:17
yeah I think that's a that's a really
00:12:18
interesting conservation and and it's
00:12:20
something that I noticed almost two
00:12:23
years ago I was at a senior Retreat for
00:12:26
our top CEOs top Executives and by
00:12:29
facilitating a panel discussion which
00:12:31
really had nothing to do with remote
00:12:32
work at all literally two years ago and
00:12:35
I was absolutely taken aback by how
00:12:37
every single CEO on this panel there
00:12:38
were three or four of them independently
00:12:40
and sort of building on each other
00:12:41
raised culture as the issue that they
00:12:44
were really it was really top of mind
00:12:45
and I think from a senior leader
00:12:47
perspective I mean single need to do if
00:12:49
we do it should think a lot about
00:12:50
culture
00:12:51
um and there's the question that hybrid
00:12:53
work creates massive challenges for
00:12:56
culture right if you just think about
00:12:58
sort of traditional
00:13:00
um you know traditional three aspects of
00:13:02
how culture has maintained attraction a
00:13:04
selection and retention right so culture
00:13:07
is really important for attracting
00:13:09
people but in order to be distinctive
00:13:11
you have to have something distinctive
00:13:13
about you and if you're sort of you know
00:13:15
if you don't have a strong culture or a
00:13:16
strong entity then what makes your
00:13:18
investment Bank any different from any
00:13:19
other Investment Bank that folks may
00:13:21
want to join rain
00:13:23
um so that's the attraction piece you
00:13:25
know um and then who do you select and
00:13:27
who chooses to to you know who is really
00:13:30
motivated to be there and wants to stay
00:13:32
there over time right for junior people
00:13:35
um culture is really important in
00:13:36
helping to understand how things are
00:13:38
done around here
00:13:40
making sure the behaviors all sort of
00:13:42
appropriate and are as productive as
00:13:44
they can possibly be and are ethical for
00:13:46
example
00:13:48
um but even for gender for senior people
00:13:49
people have been there a long time right
00:13:51
culture is really important for
00:13:52
motivating people and keeping them
00:13:54
excited or interested in coming to work
00:13:56
and the less you have that the less kind
00:13:58
of pool there is of the organization
00:13:59
which is where you start getting
00:14:00
published attention and people just you
00:14:02
know being being happy to job hop
00:14:04
because they don't see anything special
00:14:05
about your organization so culture is
00:14:08
you know that has all these different
00:14:10
ramifications let me also ask you about
00:14:12
the the component of connection uh and
00:14:15
how you see that playing out as well
00:14:19
um when you're talking about uh the the
00:14:21
success I guess it could probably be on
00:14:23
a variety of fronts how connection could
00:14:25
you could end up having an impact
00:14:28
right so connection is partly
00:14:30
um you know technological connection
00:14:32
right into the logistical how easy it is
00:14:35
for us to do handoffs and stuff like
00:14:36
that but of course the big piece that
00:14:38
we've seen
00:14:40
um and increasingly became we were
00:14:41
pretty aware of it as soon as it
00:14:42
happened in the pandemic but it's
00:14:43
persisted is social connection right and
00:14:46
so the ability to socially connect is an
00:14:48
enormous part of what happens inside
00:14:50
organizations and that has
00:14:53
um big advantages it has disadvantages
00:14:56
sometimes we all know you know some
00:14:57
other social connections at work can be
00:14:58
pretty you know not really always good
00:15:00
and sometimes we don't like being face
00:15:02
to face with our bosses and sometimes we
00:15:03
don't want to go for our drinks with our
00:15:05
colleagues and all this kind of stuff
00:15:06
right but there is something about that
00:15:08
social connection and belonging that you
00:15:10
get from interacting with people face to
00:15:12
face in a non-worth of sleep is just
00:15:14
chanting and corridors that is really
00:15:16
important to people's mental health and
00:15:18
well-being is part of what we've
00:15:19
discovered right
00:15:21
um and like without that you know people
00:15:23
can sometimes get you know really lonely
00:15:25
award or non motivated by their work
00:15:27
um so there's there's that piece of it
00:15:29
but there's also a connection is also
00:15:31
really important to kind of connect
00:15:32
culture a little bit that way
00:15:34
um for Innovation right and so one of
00:15:37
the things one of the reasons why you
00:15:39
know a lot of tech companies care about
00:15:41
having people in the office is because
00:15:42
it's those random connections that
00:15:44
people make in the workplace
00:15:46
um that can lead to new ideas sparking
00:15:49
right and it's the fact that I happen to
00:15:50
get chatting in the elevator to somebody
00:15:52
who was wearing a badge from a different
00:15:53
group and I realized oh you know what do
00:15:55
you do when they start chatting and then
00:15:57
I realize there's a connection right
00:15:59
um or maybe it's you know in the
00:16:00
cafeteria line and when when everything
00:16:02
is scheduled and we have to do
00:16:05
everything right assume we nearly always
00:16:07
are doing it with us the fixed set of
00:16:09
people right our opportunity to connect
00:16:11
with people we don't already know in the
00:16:12
organization is much lower in a in a
00:16:15
zoom or poly remote world than it isn't
00:16:17
a face-to-face world and so those
00:16:19
connections that spark new ideas and
00:16:21
Innovations
00:16:23
um are really much harder to make how do
00:16:25
you think then the role of the manager
00:16:28
kind of is able to deal with those five
00:16:31
C's so that they can make the best of
00:16:34
what is not a bad situation but it it
00:16:37
brings forward kind of more of a tenuous
00:16:39
situation
00:16:42
yeah I think that one of the things that
00:16:44
we just we're that we're at a point
00:16:46
where what managers really need to be
00:16:47
doing is is continuing um if they you
00:16:50
know hopefully they were already to
00:16:51
think actively about
00:16:54
um what is going on in their hybrid
00:16:56
workplace and whether it's as good as it
00:16:57
can be because I think the the risk of
00:16:59
being where we are in this sort of
00:17:01
learning curve on hybrid work is that
00:17:04
we've kind of settled into something
00:17:05
many organizations at this point that
00:17:07
pretty much works you know
00:17:08
um and isn't terrible and is probably
00:17:10
pretty good and it's very easy to just
00:17:12
kind of say okay let's get on with this
00:17:15
now and do the work and try to normalize
00:17:17
right and not to realize that we may not
00:17:19
be doing as well on one of the five C's
00:17:21
or something else related to hybrid work
00:17:23
that I haven't mentioned like Rewards or
00:17:25
incentives right that we really need to
00:17:28
pay attention to so I think it's very
00:17:29
important at the stage for managers to
00:17:32
be taking the time to evaluate and
00:17:35
review where they are for example on the
00:17:37
five C's right
00:17:38
um and you know it can be as simple as
00:17:40
going through a checklist to you know
00:17:41
that's give give ourselves a grade right
00:17:43
maybe I do that as a senior manager or I
00:17:45
have everybody on my team also do that
00:17:47
let's see if we agree you right are we
00:17:49
you know great on you know communication
00:17:52
on coordination on connection on
00:17:54
creativity and on culture or do we see
00:17:56
areas where we you know there's room fat
00:17:58
treatment and if so we need to take a
00:18:00
step back brainstorm think about what we
00:18:03
can do better and try to implement that
00:18:05
and then you know review that another
00:18:06
six months down the line but sort of
00:18:08
settling into a pattern that's
00:18:10
potentially sub-optimal I think is a big
00:18:12
risk of where we are given how
00:18:14
exhausting all these transitions have
00:18:15
been in the last few years and the fact
00:18:17
that now things are pretty you know
00:18:18
relatively stable and so they stay that
00:18:20
way and it and it probably makes it a
00:18:23
challenge for the manager to try and
00:18:26
make the workplace as Fair as possible
00:18:28
for everybody because of all these
00:18:30
Dynamics yeah and so being aware which
00:18:33
means it's hard to be aware of
00:18:34
everything all the time right but at
00:18:36
least sort of scheduling in you know
00:18:38
every couple of months or every six
00:18:40
months of this let's review how people
00:18:41
are feeling about where they're working
00:18:43
and whether that's still working for
00:18:44
them maybe they want the option to
00:18:45
change because we know people's
00:18:46
circumstances always change throughout
00:18:48
their lives but also particularly in the
00:18:50
last in the last few years have been
00:18:51
changing regularly right and then asking
00:18:54
people I think you know and observing
00:18:57
um and asking managers you know do
00:18:58
people have the skills they need to be
00:19:00
working this way right and so if they
00:19:04
and that kind of goes back to this idea
00:19:06
of hybrid competence right so if you are
00:19:08
depending on where you are you know in
00:19:10
the office or working remotely or you're
00:19:12
a manager you kind of have a different
00:19:14
set of responsibilities
00:19:16
um related to trying to build hybrid
00:19:18
competence right I think the important
00:19:20
Point here is it's not just about the
00:19:21
person who's working remotely right it's
00:19:22
not the burden it's not only on them to
00:19:25
make sure that they speak up and are
00:19:27
heard and I listen to and are
00:19:29
representatives are not able to make
00:19:30
connections and everything else they
00:19:33
have for sure responsibility to do that
00:19:34
need to recognize that but it's also the
00:19:36
people who are in the office who need to
00:19:38
make sure that they are including the
00:19:40
people who are working remotely and
00:19:41
making space in time for them in the
00:19:43
conversations and not leaving them out
00:19:45
of importance or even magnet decisions
00:19:47
which is obviously something we can
00:19:48
easily you know we easily do where
00:19:50
people are not around right
00:19:52
um and so it's the people who are
00:19:53
working remotely it's people are in the
00:19:55
office and then it's the manager whether
00:19:57
it's of the team or of the organization
00:19:59
who needs to keep the whole thing in
00:20:00
balance and then you know it's short
00:20:01
that both sides are doing that and kind
00:20:03
of intervening is needed
00:20:05
um to make sure that you know everybody
00:20:06
is kind of where they need to be
00:20:09
Martine always great to talk to you and
00:20:11
get your Insight thanks very much all
00:20:13
the best thanks Dan great to talk to you
00:20:15
take care you too as well uh Martine
00:20:17
Haas Wharton management professor and
00:20:19
also director of the water Institute
00:20:21
thank you for listening to the ripple
00:20:23
effect we hope you found this episode
00:20:24
informative and engaging don't forget to
00:20:27
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00:20:29
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00:20:31
Insight from the warden School
