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hi i'm kathryn klein i'm happy to be
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here and to be interviewing Derek
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Handley Derek is an entrepreneur social
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entrepreneur philanthropist venture
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capitalist and author and we have a
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tremendous amount to talk about so
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welcome thanks for having me great to
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have you here so you were just a quick
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summary of some of the highlights you a
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co-founded hyper factory you were the
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founding CEO of the B team you are today
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and this week the Nazarian Wharton
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social innovator in residence so here at
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Wharton thank you and you are the
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founder of the newly launched vc fund
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arrow VC great so we have a lot that I'd
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love to talk to you about and the three
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subjects that are highly they're all
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been we could spend a lot of time I
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think our purpose impact invents
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investing venture capital and leadership
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okay so we'll see where we but we can
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get through this cycle so when it comes
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to purpose I mean you I have have
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thought a lot about purpose and you
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found your purpose and that's been
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meaningful for you how did you find your
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purpose as a business person interesting
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question i think the common pattern for
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me has been whenever something really
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terrible has happened from a business or
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a life perspective asking bigger
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questions around what i might be best
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put here to do and so in kind of moments
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of crisis a sense of perspective has
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often opened up new ideas about where i
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could be spending my time and how i
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could be using it so that's one kind of
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common element from the past you know
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ten fifteen years the other is just
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experimenting and exploring different
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places understanding that you know that
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is a journey and you kind of wave in and
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out of things that you resonate with and
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lastly the things that i resonate with
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really trusting that mmm that intuition
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and that instinct to follow that
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whatever that particular calling or idea
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is and giving it the space and time to
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really grow great with in my life so
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that's kind of some of the ways in which
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it's manifested itself and and as i
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understand this there was
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when you were launching hyper factory
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this purpose in this larger vision for
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your contribution to the world was less
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front and center yeah and that shifted
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right i mean i was mostly focused then
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on how do you build a start-up you know
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from where i was in the bottom of the
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world in new zealand and just straight
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out of university and i had this idea
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that i wanted to build a company that
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went global and as a really young person
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to show that it could be done so in a
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sense the purpose that I was trying to
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prove was can we build companies as
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young kids from New Zealand and make it
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in the best night yeah I foot it with
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the best so I was around innovation the
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thrill the chase how do you build a
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company and but when I came in kind of
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stepped back and looked at well what is
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the purpose and what's the what's the
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impact that the company is trying to
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have that's when I looked at much I
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guess a much broader perspective of what
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is possible if you're building a company
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what might you try to have it tackle as
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an issue and and has finding that larger
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purpose been inspiring daunting tiring
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you know energizing how would you
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describe what finally see you like
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you're really connecting with something
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that you feel you're here to do yeah
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it's it's really energizing and
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inspiring and to me one of the tests I
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have around this stuff is if it's
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frightening in some way then it's
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probably the right place yeah it's a
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little bit like it's going to be
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difficult and it's your putting you in
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an uncomfortable position then I feel
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like it's probably where I should be
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going if it looks too comfortable and
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something that you think you could do
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then to me it's as personal you know
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instance it's probably not the right
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thing for me yeah and is your purpose
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succinct enough distinct enough that you
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can articulate it to us not I don't
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think in a sense that I've you know kind
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of created a slogan out of it but at the
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macro level everything that I'm doing
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now is somehow trying to contribute in
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some way to a social or environmental
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issue that I that is that is out there
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in the world or some sort of sort of
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injustice that I think this generation
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should be trying to transform whether
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that's the way we treat global drug
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policy or the way we think about
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what should entrepreneurs be building in
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terms of the companies that people are
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starting so that's kind of the macro I
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guess thesis on an individual basis it's
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about helping and trying to empower and
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build confidence in every single person
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to pursue that the truth that's inside
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of them as to what they should really be
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doing with their life I've met too many
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people who take comp make make a lot of
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compromises and don't pursue the things
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they knew or no are actually where their
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dreams lie for an enormous number of
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reasons that they have created that make
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it very difficult for them whether it's
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about the courage or the confidence or
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practical reasons like you know I
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couldn't possibly do that or it's not
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really my thing to make these changes
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and part of the mission we're on as
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helping all sorts of people realize the
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things that they really want to do in
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the world and that you know investing in
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entrepreneurs we're trying to create
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significant change is one expression of
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that so before we get dig into investing
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in entrepreneurs and who want to make a
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difference in the world any any advice
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to people who may be listening and
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watching and thinking yeah I want to
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find my purpose what the heck is my
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purpose or I don't have time to find my
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purpose well the the biggest advice I
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have in this whole space is taking a
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significant amount of time to reflect
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and think about these kinds of questions
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in the course of your ordinary week or
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months I think we're in a world where
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people operate in a whirlwind battling
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with an inbox for their whole day it
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seems like it's starting n to the blur
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and then you go home and you kind of
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just want to you know get some relief
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but for me the thing that's always
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worked its carving out several hours a
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week to think about the longer term the
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bigger picture and always questioning is
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this where I feel like I'm making the
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biggest difference is this where I feel
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like are my strengths of being brought
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to bear and if the answers are not
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positive for you know enough enough days
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in a row then you have to make changes
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and so creating that space is what I
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think a lot of people strong
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with because they think they've got way
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too much to do right but actually if
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you're doing all the stuff and three or
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five or seven years later and you look
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back it and it doesn't mean anything to
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you that actually it's far worse than
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taking time out now to recalibrate and
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constantly kind of challenge yourself as
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to whether you're being courageous
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enough to really do the things that you
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know in your heart are the things you
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should be doing yeah so you've channeled
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your business expertise and your love of
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entrepreneurship and your sense of
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purpose into a new venture capital fund
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launching today arrow VC so what is
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arrow vc so era is is a new initiative
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that we've been building over the last
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15 months it is spun out of a charitable
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foundation of mine in New Zealand called
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the era foundation error being you know
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the word describes our era the things
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that we should be challenged and
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tackling in ocean spelled that it's a ra
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is the Latin root and I looked at the
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early stage venture space around the
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world and saw that there was definitely
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a need for more early-stage capital and
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support for companies and founders who
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are trying to address a particular
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social or environmental issue that they
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felt really strongly about and they had
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chosen to build a venture-backed company
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to do that so we're looking at companies
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from all around the world and in the
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last year of backed them from you know
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New Zealand Australia Hong Kong New York
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and trying to create a community of
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those those founders but also a
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community of families from around the
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world than one who invest in those
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companies so it's the twofold community
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building that we're kind of embarking on
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right right so you've talked a little
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bit about VC and the need for VC in this
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space can you describe more about the
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companies that pass you know pass
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through your screen that that get all
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the way to this could be an interesting
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and important investment well the first
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thing is this core mission has to be
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something to address a social or
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environmental challenge of the founder
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has stumbled across or has been living
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in for a long time that's the first you
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know kind of test we have developed for
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error a concept called the error terms
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which is like a social term sheet which
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has basically three elements one the
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commitment from the found at
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build into their DNA as an organization
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their purpose is being around this
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particular social issue the second being
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that they are willing to try as hard as
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they can to create at least one metric
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to measure what the progress is they're
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making against the issue and the third
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is that they are building in some way to
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should they succeed and exit and develop
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a successful company that there are some
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ring-fenced equity that they will pay
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forward to a non-profit or an impact
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investing unit or something like that so
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that's kind of how we first look at the
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social mission then we look at things in
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the same way that you look in an early
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stage company so what's the product
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what's unique about it what's the market
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what's disruptive about what they're
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trying to do and essentially the most
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important thing is always what's the
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founder and the team look like and are
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they going to be able to deliver you
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know on the only on the vision that they
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have so I'm intrigued by this concept of
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the error terms right that it's been
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important to you that these terms be
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explicit and you mentioned right this
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kind of deep purpose that's part of the
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DNA metrics to measure and measure it
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and then paying it forward upon exit why
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is it important to make those as
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explicit as a term sheet for us it's a
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way of it's almost like a litmus test if
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people are buy into that then we're on
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the same page we're on the same
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adventure together you know that's what
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we believe the entrepreneur and era
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believe the same thing that this is why
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you should build companies and that
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there is some robustness in the level of
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rigor around will you're trying to
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change something in society well how are
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you going to measure it because if
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you're trying to build a business you
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measure your traditional metrics revenue
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margin whatever it might be cash burn
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well if you're trying to solve a problem
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in education or health you need to put
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your mind also to how you might measure
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it and some time that's very difficult
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but at least if you put your mind to it
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I think it helps the founders get some
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clarity is to at least coming up with
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some possible way of figuring out
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whether they're making a dent in the
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problem they're trying to address so
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that's kind of just a way for us to
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structure some rigor around making sure
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a few boxes are checked
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before we then go into and have a look
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at how transformative or what kind of
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potential the company might have and
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earlier when we were talking about these
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companies earlier today you use the term
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hybrid capital so I think hybrid
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organization may be a more familiar term
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meaning an organization a company that
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may have a for-profit mission and a
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social mission and that's kind of a
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hybrid is more familiar to focus on and
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scholars of management for sure this
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hybrid capital what is hybrid capital
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and why is you why have you found that
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important well the way I think of it is
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a you know a hybrid being the capital
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coming from both for-profit sources and
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also from philanthropic sources it's not
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a prerequisite we look at a company but
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we think there's this interesting time
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at the moment where nonprofits and
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foundations are willing to invest or
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grant to for-profit companies if they
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believe that that organization is doing
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an amazing job at addressing the issue
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that they care about and they don't
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worry that it's not a non-profit so this
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is happening more and more so if we look
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at a company and they're getting for
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non-profit foundation grants to us an
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indicates they're doing a very good job
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on trying to tackle this mission right
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because some third party has endorsed it
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in a way that an investor wouldn't be
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looking at it the ideal for us is that a
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venture capitalist who doesn't really
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care about the social issue also thinks
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they will consider investing because
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from their lens the things that they're
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trying to check off are being checked
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off and if those two things can happen
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which is rare but a couple of the
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companies we have have that then it
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means you're satisfying these kind of
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two ends of the spectrum and by blending
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that capital you're essentially creating
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you know a stack of different ways in
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which the company can grow and scale and
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to us that's really exciting to find
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those investors investments because the
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grant capital is non-dilutive so as an
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investor it becomes and you get leverage
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out of it and the more companies we find
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like that in the early stages the more
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we can get leverage from our early stage
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investment right right it's very
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interesting because right you have you
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have well philanthropists and investors
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to use the traditional terms applying
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different criteria exactly right and
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seeing in this company something that
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both value exactly yeah that right I get
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that that's what cos of the sweet spot
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yeah exactly so the the last thing I
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wanted to discuss with you is leadership
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you've had you know you've been a leader
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you've worked for it as part of the the
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B team at first CEO of the B team and we
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can you can talk a little bit about the
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B team you've seen a lot of
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extraordinary leaders and now of course
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you're investing in leaders so let's
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let's give folks I let you describe what
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the the B team is and who's involved and
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then let's talk about what you've
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learned about leadership okay yeah so
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the B team was an idea that Richard
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Branson and the Virgin Unite foundation
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had a few years ago which is essentially
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in the beginning of this kind of
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movement of corporate CEOs wanting to
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figure out how they can create more
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sustainable or socially oriented
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businesses Richard wanted to build a
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collection of leaders like that from
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around the world to help each other work
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with each other advocate for issues and
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also pilot different ideas and their own
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organizations so I had volunteered year
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of my time to help but should build this
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idea and essentially Scout the globe to
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find iconic leaders from around the
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world like you know Ratan Tata in India
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or GME Leal from nature in Brazil and
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produce a team that a lot of them
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haven't met before but bringing them
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together on the same page to help
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catalyze a movement that's you know
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picking up pace which is how does
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business move from being myopically
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focused on profit to being focused on
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people planet and profit and that
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movement is I think what we're
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increasingly wanting to see happen and
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the B team is trying to be kind of an
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icebreaker Ennis and a you know at the
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spearhead of it so being exposed to that
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experience and all the various types of
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people that were involved and had a
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heady group yeah I mean all sorts of
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people from Muhammad Yunus for who the
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microfinance been at pioneer to Arianna
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Huffington who's now obviously
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pioneering around well-being and sleep
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and issues that are becoming more what
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better understood in the zeitgeist of
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how do we take care of ourselves so that
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we are personally sustainable so these
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are these kind of shifts that are
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happening in the world that
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organizations like the B team are trying
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to help tip into more of a mainstream
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movement so as you
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think about you know you reflect and
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you're obviously someone who does
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reflect a lot as you reflect on your own
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leadership experiences as a leader as a
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follower interacting with these leaders
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now investing in these leaders what are
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the let's start with you what are the
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the characteristics the practices that
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you aspire to enact as a leader yourself
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well something that I care about I guess
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you know it's a particular thing for me
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is what does the future look like so i
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invest a lot of time and energy and
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thinking about where are we going what's
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the possible vision of things in society
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that need to change and systemically
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should be a you know evolved this
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century so the b team is a
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representation of that you know where
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does capitals a move to involve given
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that what we've learned and what we've
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seen with regards to the planet and also
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social issues that still are struggling
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that applies to other areas like as i
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mentioned drug policy where we're seeing
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that after 30 40 years of a war on drugs
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it isn't working there is a lot of
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challenges with it and we need to
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rethink our view on it so for me that's
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one of the things i like to make sure
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that i'm always thinking about what's
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behind the next next corner and where do
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we need to start you know thinking about
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the other pieces i guess goes back to
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the idea of like reflection and making
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sure that in my world that i'm doing the
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things that i think if I died tomorrow I
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wouldn't have any regrets and how I'm
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spending my energy my time any resources
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I might have or how I might you know
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deploy them and that goes for also for
00:17:08
people i meet or work with you know so
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younger people or anyone that I know or
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see your friends to me being a leader in
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a community or in a family or with your
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friends my particular angle on that is
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helping other people make sure that
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they're really being bold about how they
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live their own lives and are making
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courageous decisions because you know it
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is very short in a sense life but if you
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are bold and courageous about what
00:17:35
you're doing I think as the Roman
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philosopher Seneca can set said is life
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as long you know if you know how to use
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it the problem I think is that too often
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we're encouraged to be on a while a
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mouse wheel and
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not look back and forward enough to make
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sure that we're on the right you know
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the ladders up against the right wall
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because you can climb up it for 20 30
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years and realize it's totally wrong war
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mm-hm and it's a pretty sad thing to do
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that you know I think the longer you you
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go on I'm interested in your you know in
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your description of vision why is that
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important I mean I think it's some level
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we could say oh right vision leaders are
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supposed to have vision but why again
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this is just from my point of view right
00:18:20
I'm not some kind of leadership expert
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but unless someone can inspire a broader
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mission for me to be a part of a
00:18:27
movement or a mountain to climb or
00:18:29
something like that it's hard to get me
00:18:31
motivated and excited about it so I
00:18:34
think about how do you motivate and
00:18:36
excite people to push themselves to be
00:18:41
who they are and all that they can be
00:18:43
well for me a large part of that is
00:18:46
inspiration and direction and at a point
00:18:49
where you don't feel like there's a
00:18:51
challenge or something inspiring to
00:18:53
follow or you know a moon shot of some
00:18:56
sort I think you can get home home and
00:18:59
people can kind of get into a cycle but
00:19:01
if there is a moon shot if there is an
00:19:04
audacious challenge or if there is a
00:19:05
direction that you believe in and that
00:19:07
you can buy into think that's what
00:19:09
motivates organizations and people and
00:19:11
teams and whether they're a sports team
00:19:14
you know we're a company and that that
00:19:17
whole thing to me if you can't
00:19:18
articulate and paint a picture of vision
00:19:21
I think that there is a strong element
00:19:24
of leadership that is kind of being left
00:19:26
you know an addressed and there are lots
00:19:29
of leaders who are do not do a lot of
00:19:32
that you know I think leaders of cities
00:19:36
and countries sometimes don't do a very
00:19:37
good job of that and they become more
00:19:39
managerial and administrative than
00:19:41
visionary it's just my my personal bias
00:19:45
as towards leaders who can project we're
00:19:48
going there and these the reasons why
00:19:50
we're going and you should come along
00:19:51
yeah yeah so earlier today when we were
00:19:54
talking about leaders you mentioned
00:19:56
another quality and I'm wondering how
00:19:58
that fits in because you've talked about
00:20:00
vision
00:20:01
and you've talked about boldness and
00:20:03
earlier when we were talking today you
00:20:05
talked about coachability and i have to
00:20:08
say when i think about leaders who are
00:20:10
bold and visionary i would think there's
00:20:13
a real risk that they're not that
00:20:14
coachable so to talk to us about a coach
00:20:17
ability well it's kind of this this
00:20:21
double edged the type of thing right i
00:20:22
think the vision and the boldness and
00:20:24
the conviction of what you're trying to
00:20:26
do in the idea i think that's where you
00:20:29
you want that persistence and that that
00:20:34
that unrelenting kind of commitment but
00:20:38
how you get there and how you go about
00:20:39
getting there is where I think you need
00:20:42
to be able to be flexible and coachable
00:20:44
on where you might not see blind spots
00:20:47
or you might not be strong enough
00:20:48
certain areas and so when you look at
00:20:50
our entrepreneur you might agree
00:20:52
entirely with where they want to go but
00:20:54
if it seems like in the first 9 12-15
00:20:56
months it seems like some of the things
00:20:57
they're doing aren't working you want
00:20:59
the entrepreneur to be able to recognize
00:21:01
that acknowledge a set of external
00:21:03
possible advisors and inputs and then
00:21:05
make and synthesize their own decision
00:21:07
as to how they're going to modify their
00:21:08
behavior or their approach if you can't
00:21:11
if you can't embody that kind of
00:21:14
behavior then it becomes very difficult
00:21:15
for anyone to help you out of a
00:21:17
situation so I've invested in certain
00:21:18
companies where the founder would not
00:21:20
change their view on the world even
00:21:22
though it was showing that nothing was
00:21:23
working right and those companies they
00:21:26
and that particular company for example
00:21:28
died because they wouldn't change their
00:21:31
mindset they were fully committed to
00:21:33
exactly how they were executing when it
00:21:35
was clear to everyone outside them that
00:21:36
it wasn't you know working so that's
00:21:38
just a kind of an element that I think
00:21:41
even I think everyone should have that
00:21:43
you know that ability to make sure that
00:21:46
you know when you're 60 70 80 90 you
00:21:49
should always be able to have as we were
00:21:51
speaking about earlier beginners mine
00:21:53
because then you can never be accused of
00:21:56
being stuck in your old ways and you can
00:21:58
never be find yourself in a situation
00:22:00
where you're isolating your perspective
00:22:02
on something and that the whole world
00:22:03
has totally shifted and you you know
00:22:05
because people say oh I'm talk too old
00:22:07
to learn new things or I'm too old to
00:22:09
change my ways and to me that's the
00:22:10
antithesis of what life is about it's a
00:22:13
constant organic
00:22:14
evolution and the moment you think
00:22:16
you've gotten to a point where you're
00:22:17
too old or you know too much I think
00:22:20
that's when a lot of the beauty of life
00:22:22
is kind of lost and to me the biggest
00:22:25
challenge I guess of living would be to
00:22:26
constantly have or try to have you know
00:22:28
beginner's mind yeah great thank you so
00:22:31
much for being with us Derek Emily thank
00:22:33
you
00:22:49
you
