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Nancy Rothbard: One of the things
we know from a lot of research is
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that there is a concept called
"homophily," which is, we are kind of drawn
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to people who are similar to
us. It's easier for us to relate to
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people who are similar to us. And
so because there are fewer women in
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these executive roles, that sort of
trickles down in a way that people
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actually have to be more conscious
about sponsoring people who are not
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similar to them.
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Dan Loney: Welcome to The Ripple
Effect, the podcast that takes you
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on a journey through the minds of
Wharton faculty. I'm your host, Dan
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Loney, and in each episode, we'll
be diving deep into the inspiration
00:00:36
behind the groundbreaking research
that Wharton professors have
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conducted and exploring
how their findings resonate
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with the world today.
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Well, the importance of mentors in
a career has been well documented,
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but there is also quite a bit of
discussion about how a sponsor can
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play a vital role, as well,
especially for women.
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Pleasure to be joined
here in studio by Nancy Rothbard,
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Deputy Dean here at the Wharton
School and also Professor of Management.
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Nancy, great to see you.
Thanks for your time today.
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It's great to see you.
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I guess we need to start out first,
though, by distinguishing
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the differences between a
mentor and a sponsor.
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Yeah. No, it's a really important
distinction, so I'm really glad you
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started there. The difference
between a mentor and a sponsor is a
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mentor is someone who can give you
help, who has expertise and skill
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and can teach you things that
are really useful.
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A sponsor is somebody who can help you
gain access and opportunity.
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And so sometimes you can have a person
who can be both a mentor and a
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sponsor, and sometimes
those roles are separate.
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So you've talked, as well, about
the importance of sponsors for women.
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Well, I think that what we see
in a lot of organizations
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is as you go up the leadership
ranks, there are fewer women
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in those positions. And what that
means is that the access and the
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opportunity for women in these
leadership roles is less salient,
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right? People don't necessarily
think of women for these roles.
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- Right.
- And so one of the things that sponsors can do
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is to really help get your
name out there,
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make sure that you're a viable candidate
- Right.
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- for a position, so that you are known
and recognized and considered
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when people are thinking about
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taking on a new person in
a new leadership role.
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Is there a recognition of kind of
the importance of sponsors when
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you're thinking about this dynamic
between the two, between mentors
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and sponsors and how important they
can be, and a recognition by the
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people themselves that maybe being
a sponsor can be very beneficial?
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There is a lot to unpack there.
Thank you for asking, because I
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think that those are two really
critical pieces. So firstly,
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when we think about the recognition by
people, by individuals, that
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it's important to have a mentor or to
have a sponsor,
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the research does show that people
say that they want
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mentors and sponsors.
I think they recognize
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that that is an important way
to get to develop your leadership
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potential, right, to learn more
from a mentor
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and to be put forward by a sponsor.
- Right.
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Right? So I think people do know that
they want that.
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From the other perspective,
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from the sponsor or
the mentor's perspective,
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I think sometimes people
do recognize
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that that's actually a really important
role that they should be playing
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in their own leadership capacities.
- Right.
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So for example, in my leadership
roles, I recognize that one of my
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key jobs is spotting talent and
developing talent and make—
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and nurturing that talent.
So to make sure
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that there are—
that we're bringing people up
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for filling future leadership
opportunities, right?
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Some people are more
aware of that than others. - Right.
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Right. So— so I think
that the best sponsors
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that you have are the people
who really are aware of how
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important that role is.
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For you, then, specifically, what
was that process like for you? Was
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there a recognition that you had
along the way of the capabilities
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or the elements that you may
be able to bring to some of those
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other individuals, in terms of
being a sponsor,
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and the benefit
that you could provide?
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The light bulb for me was when I
realized that my job depended
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on me being able to develop
future leaders,
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people who could fill the roles
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that were going to be really
critical for the organization's
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success. - Right.
- And so that light bulb
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went off, and I realized, "Wow,
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this is actually a big part of my
job." And so I started being much
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more active and proactive about
scouting the landscape,
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about thinking and getting to know
people
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so that I knew what they were
capable of,
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but also getting to
know what kinds of things and
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places where they could thrive
because you have all sorts of
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people out there who are going
to be able to thrive more in one
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situation than another. And the
better I am at spotting that
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and matching those people to
jobs,
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the better I'm going to
be in my role as a sponsor.
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So for the employee who is looking
to find that person to be the
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sponsor, especially if it is a
woman, is there any additional
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benefit of that sponsor being a
woman and maybe understanding
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the process more and what that
person has been going through? - Yeah.
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I mean, it's a great question. I think
that the answer is sort of yes and no.
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Right? So on the one hand, it can
be really beneficial as a woman
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to have a woman as a sponsor.
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On the other hand, it's much more
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important to have a sponsor.
- Right.
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Right? And so for me,
when I was kind of coming up—
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and— look, and I'm still, you know,
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we still have sponsors at whatever
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- Sure.
- level we're at. But at different
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levels in my career, some of my
sponsors were women, and some of
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them were men. And the key piece
was having the right person
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sponsor me. - Right.
- So I think that's still
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the most important piece,
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and we have to recognize
that as you go up
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the hierarchy in organizations,
there are not
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as many women in some
of those roles. So I think
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having a sponsor is more important than
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insisting to yourself that that
person be a woman.
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- I read that women tend to be
over-mentored and under-sponsored.
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- Yeah. - Explain why that is,
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and maybe there's even a component
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in you just said, in terms of
- Yeah. - the numbers of women
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that are kind of in
a lot of these roles,
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or maybe not in
a lot of these roles, to be able to
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provide this opportunity.
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And that's part of the answer,
absolutely. Right.
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So the relative, right, comparison
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between being over-mentored
and under-sponsored
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is such that there are fewer people
in these roles who recognize women
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often as having the leadership
potential that is going to be of
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value in the organization,
right? And so that's where the—
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the under-sponsorship can come from,
because
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one of the things we know
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from a lot of research is
that there is a concept called
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"homophily," which is, we are kind of drawn
to people who are similar to us.
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It's easier for us to relate to
people who are similar to us. And
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so because there are fewer women
in these executive roles, that
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trickles down in a way that people
actually have to be more conscious
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about sponsoring people
who are not similar to them.
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The mentor and the sponsor
both have benefits to themselves.
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Absolutely. - But are there
characteristics that
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maybe the sponsor holds
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that are maybe more unique to the
development process than,
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than say, a mentor would have?
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I think that they both play a
role, but in different parts of the
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process. Is how I would put
it. So a mentor can help you really
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develop skills, can give you
information, can give you guidance
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that can be invaluable as
you develop as a leader, as a
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professional in any way in
organizations.
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What the sponsor does
is the sponsor
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is able to be the
person who is in the room saying,
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"You know, I see a huge amount of potential
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in Dan. - Right.
- He is going to be the next—
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you know, breakthrough - Right.
- for this organization,
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and we really need to take a
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chance on him."
- Right.
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And having somebody
who is willing to say,
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"We need to take a chance on this person,"
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that's often what makes the difference
- Right.
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- between people who are
recognized, and who are not,
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and put into critical
leadership opportunities, right,
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that allow them to advance
in organizations.
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- So then I guess when you talk about
the structure and the buildup
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of an organization, having somebody,
or multiple people, like that
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- Yes.
- is an incredible benefit
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to the growth
of the organization, probably both
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within kind of the walls of the offices,
but also probably at times for the
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bottom line of the
company, as well.
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- Of course, right. So this is about,
how do we build our capacity
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in the organization, having the right
people in the roles to—
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to really make sure that we are succeeding
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and are rising to levels
of excellence
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in our organization? Right?
And so we want to choose
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people who are excellent and
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who can be excellent.
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And so having somebody
who is willing to go out
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on a limb for you— and put their
own reputation—
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so when I'm a sponsor, and I'm,
you know, promoting somebody,
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I'm also putting my
- Sure.
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- reputation on the line as a good
spotter of talent
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and somebody who's trusted,
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so that the next time around,
somebody is going to listen to me.
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Right? And so as somebody who wants to
be sponsored,
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making sure that you
earn the trust of the sponsor
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is a really critical characteristic
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that allows that sponsor to go out on
the limb for you. Right?
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Somebody who is dependable,
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somebody who hits
their marks, who is, you know,
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able to show excellence
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in terms of their
performance and their skills, but
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also trustworthiness.
- Right.
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Those are really critical qualities that
sponsors look for in sponsees.
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And so I guess the hope is, in terms of
the conversation around women
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in the workplace, the more women
you have moving up to the executive
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roles or leadership roles
within companies,
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then the more opportunities you have
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for women to connect and be able to develop
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that relationship, that sponsor
relationship with that person,
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and can continue to move them up
the ladder within the corporation.
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Absolutely, but also to recognize
that women could sponsor men.
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Men could sponsor women. All of that
can happen.
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The key is having women
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in these roles. What I think the
difference that makes is it creates
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an accessibility, right, a stereotype,
if you will,
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or a role model that
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creates the potential for other
people to see those women
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as having the leadership potential,
if you will.
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Right? So that
matching process becomes easier
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when you have women in the C-suite
or the executive ranks because
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other people say, "Oh, yeah, that's
a possibility." - Sure.
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And we can see how that works and
how it's effective.
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So what do you think are some of
the recommendations
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that we need to consider when we're
thinking about mentors versus
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sponsors in the workplace?
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I have two key recommendations,
Dan, one from the perspective of
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the mentee or sponsee, right?
The employee
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who is potentially needing
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mentorship or sponsorship.
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That recommendation is
you need to be
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intentional and proactive. It
doesn't just come to you. You need
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to actually enact that. You need to seek
out mentors, you need to seek out
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sponsors, and you need to show
that you are worthy of their trust.
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From the sponsor perspective, my
recommendation is that you need to
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recognize that this is an active
part of your job.
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You need to source talent
from people in the organization,
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and you need to be really intentional
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about learning
about who is in the organization,
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what their skill sets are, what
might be a good fit for them,
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and be intentional about trying
to not just recommend the
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same people all the time.
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Nancy, great to talk with you.
Thanks very much today. All the best.
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Thanks, Dan.
- Nancy Rothbard,
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Deputy Dean here
at the Wharton School,
00:12:35
and also Management Professor.
00:12:37
Thank you for listening to
The Ripple Effect.
00:12:39
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00:12:42
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