00:00:00
you know when we switch to a four day
00:00:01
work week the productivity was the same
00:00:03
or even better and when they looked more
00:00:05
closely they found that or perhaps
00:00:06
people spend less time on less efficient
00:00:09
and less effective workplace practices
00:00:12
in particular they highlighted that all
00:00:14
the meetings were not so productive
00:00:16
anyway and they actually spend less time
00:00:18
in meetings
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welcome to the ripple effect the podcast
00:00:22
that takes you on a journey through the
00:00:24
minds of Wharton faculty I'm your host
00:00:26
Dan Loney and in each episode we'll be
00:00:28
diving deep into the inspiration behind
00:00:31
the groundbreaking research that Wharton
00:00:33
professors have conducted and exploring
00:00:35
how their findings resonate with the
00:00:37
world today and great to be joined by
00:00:40
Yvonne Baron Kay who's associate
00:00:42
professor of management here at the
00:00:43
Wharton School Yvonne pleasure to talk
00:00:45
to you again Dan so nice to see you
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thank you and so the the idea of the
00:00:51
four day work week I guess after
00:00:52
everything we've gone through during the
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pandemic and the kind of the success
00:00:57
that people have had in terms of working
00:00:59
remotely and all the different changes
00:01:02
should we be surprised that we're
00:01:04
starting to see more and more ideas like
00:01:06
this come into the mix in terms of when
00:01:08
we think about what work is going to
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look like
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no I think it's uh very interesting that
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um because employees have gained a
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little bit more bargaining power because
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the labor market was very favorable for
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employees
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employers had a often a hard time
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finding and retaining their employees
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because they were switching jobs so that
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gave them a bit more leverage and that
00:01:33
perhaps has brought up a couple more
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ideas on how to accommodate the needs of
00:01:40
employees in terms of work-life balance
00:01:42
in terms of other obligations that they
00:01:44
have
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and you know we will see ideas like this
00:01:48
coming up up all the time and yeah the
00:01:51
third day work week is an interesting
00:01:52
one although it is it is something that
00:01:54
has been around a little bit actually
00:01:56
yeah yeah that's the unique thing is
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that this is not a New Concept
00:02:00
historically there is a history there
00:02:03
but it's realistically it's new in terms
00:02:06
of what we think about work here in the
00:02:08
United States yeah just just to provide
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a bit of historical context I mean the
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four day work week actually was tried at
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a large scale in Germany by Volkswagen
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after reunification and that was really
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in the cotton text of large
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restructurings of the economy because
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with reunification people discovered
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that most of the industry most of the
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capital in East Germany was not
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competitive so that led to massive
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restructuring and many of the western
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companies bought their counterparts in
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East Germany and then they faced the
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situation that they had to really
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rebuild how they are doing everything
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and in the past you might just say oh
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let's just fire people and then when we
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want to hire them again we can bring
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them back on board but that transition
00:02:56
is is very very costly you know firing
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and then fining and training them again
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is very expensive so there they found uh
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the situation where they say well uh
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currently we don't have as much work so
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we cut the work back to four days
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um and in the German context it was
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almost at the same uh pay so it was uh
00:03:18
it was that their pay did not shrink by
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20 it shrank by a little bit but but but
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but not by 20 percent
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and but Volkswagen then went back to to
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the full week uh at some point yeah but
00:03:31
the the idea of the four day work week
00:03:33
now yeah is obviously it's a little bit
00:03:36
different because the expectations are
00:03:37
probably different for what would be
00:03:39
what you would get from an employee yeah
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uh in part in part I think already if I
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may just put give one more historical uh
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experience from that
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um because
00:03:52
um you know the workplace
00:03:54
um is a funny is it funny it's the funny
00:03:57
space because there's work that has to
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be done and companies uh think about
00:04:03
what work they need to do and how many
00:04:05
people they have that they need for that
00:04:08
um but people who are in the workplace
00:04:10
they of course are thinking about their
00:04:12
career and careers are essentially
00:04:14
tournaments
00:04:15
and uh the way you get a promotion is to
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be good but also to be better than your
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peers and that led to a dynamic in the
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experience of the four day work week how
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many people actually took work home
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because they not only just wanted to get
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their work done but they wanted to excel
00:04:32
they they were like contractually
00:04:34
obligated to leave because these are you
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these were union jobs in the Volkswagen
00:04:38
place and they did then they continued
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to work at home so that they you know
00:04:42
could win in this tournament and that
00:04:44
was something that led them to pressure
00:04:46
among their peers to do the same so it
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was not just you Dan because you're well
00:04:51
known overachiever you can't stop
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working right but then you know your
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peers at other
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um you know Executive Education or
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business school or radio stations will
00:05:02
do the same so this then led to like a
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contagion effect across the the place
00:05:07
and that led to a a view by many
00:05:10
employees that this was actually quite
00:05:11
more stressful
00:05:12
because
00:05:14
um The Experience the expectations of
00:05:16
performance uh remain the same but they
00:05:19
were not really adjusted to the fact
00:05:20
that they had 20 percent less time to
00:05:23
work and that put actually more pressure
00:05:25
and more stress onto the employees so
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that was just like one historical
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experience I think is is relevant to
00:05:30
bear in mind I think there have been now
00:05:32
some new uh forests into this and there
00:05:36
were like a couple of researchers who
00:05:38
partnered with some companies and um
00:05:40
they looked at the data and they seem to
00:05:44
report that you know when we switched to
00:05:46
a four day work week the productivity
00:05:47
was the same or even better and when
00:05:49
they looked more closely they found that
00:05:51
or perhaps people spend less time on on
00:05:55
less efficient and less effective
00:05:57
um workplace practices and particularly
00:05:59
they highlighted that oh the meetings
00:06:02
were not so productive anyway and they
00:06:04
actually spend less time in meetings
00:06:07
now here I think it's worthwhile to
00:06:10
reflect a little bit about what the
00:06:12
modern workplace is like because it's
00:06:15
not that you know you hire people to to
00:06:18
uh to just like plug things together
00:06:20
right and there's on an assembly line
00:06:24
um because these jobs especially with
00:06:25
GPT or perhaps those who will be
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replaced by by programs or by machines
00:06:30
anyway so most of the jobs that require
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a human input and where value added is
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created are what we would call complex
00:06:39
jobs or non-routine jobs
00:06:41
and one particular type of job and
00:06:45
here's a bit of a jargon here from
00:06:46
computer science is called irreducible
00:06:49
complexity so this is jobs these that
00:06:52
are complicated and whenever there was
00:06:54
there's a change in the circumstances
00:06:56
you really have to think again about how
00:06:59
to optimally spend your time so think
00:07:02
about this for instance for you every
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day you have to think about how much
00:07:05
time you want to spend on emails how
00:07:08
much time you want to spend on meetings
00:07:10
and talking to other people and how much
00:07:11
time do you want to spend on in the
00:07:13
studio right and in the end you want to
00:07:15
figure out you know what makes you
00:07:17
happiest and most productive
00:07:19
but when I say there's a shock in the
00:07:21
economy and because this time allocation
00:07:24
job is a complex one whenever there's a
00:07:27
change in circumstances this actually
00:07:28
asks you to rethink how you spend your
00:07:31
entire week and this is very very
00:07:33
laborious to do that and this is why
00:07:37
people in organizations on the outside
00:07:39
they look it might look like it is not
00:07:42
productive what they're doing when
00:07:43
they're sitting around talking to each
00:07:45
other but what happens in those
00:07:46
circumstances is that they reflect on
00:07:48
their work with their colleagues they
00:07:50
learn from each other they learn uh from
00:07:53
from them what they tried and what
00:07:55
worked better in the current situation
00:07:56
where they actually update their
00:07:59
algorithm on how to spend their time and
00:08:02
how hard to work on certain tasks so my
00:08:05
concern here is that this is a bit of a
00:08:08
simplified view of what the workplace
00:08:10
really looks like when we say oh just be
00:08:14
effective and you know just get your
00:08:16
crank your workout and you know get it
00:08:19
done and then you can go home and then
00:08:21
you can spend time with your children
00:08:22
learn another language and start a
00:08:25
charity or whatever people are doing in
00:08:26
this spare time I don't think that's
00:08:29
really the the correct view of what a
00:08:31
value creation job looks like so that's
00:08:34
that's the balance that I'm thinking
00:08:36
here it and as you were saying that one
00:08:39
of the other things that came to my mind
00:08:40
as well is the perception of what the
00:08:43
employee has for what they think is the
00:08:46
right mix in terms of duties and
00:08:49
responsibilities in comparison to what
00:08:51
the middle manager or the c-suite
00:08:54
believes is the proper level and how
00:08:57
those two may very well could could
00:09:00
Clash at times absolutely absolutely and
00:09:03
uh you know
00:09:05
when I thought about this this this new
00:09:08
interest and the four day work week and
00:09:09
what it does to the workplace and you
00:09:11
know spending your time more efficiently
00:09:13
I I have to think about uh my marriage
00:09:15
or everybody's marriage where you know
00:09:18
there's one thing where you agree on
00:09:19
what to do and then you you do it you
00:09:22
know
00:09:22
um I don't know my wife works on on the
00:09:26
on our taxes and I perhaps fix dinner
00:09:28
and what not and this is this is very
00:09:30
good separation of tasks but on the
00:09:33
other hand there are also these moments
00:09:34
where we just like casually sit together
00:09:36
and think about what we want to do and
00:09:38
how we want to spend our time on and
00:09:39
this is where we actually come to an
00:09:41
understanding and this is really
00:09:43
essential if you take away this time
00:09:45
where people can reflect and discuss
00:09:47
what are the important routines and
00:09:50
where people can express their different
00:09:52
Visions about what the work needs to be
00:09:54
done when we take this away this just
00:09:56
leads to a Schism in the workplace where
00:09:58
there's just like uh the employers who
00:10:01
pass on orders to their employees to
00:10:04
execute them which in the end takes away
00:10:06
a lot of the meaning and just job
00:10:08
satisfaction and where people are just
00:10:09
disgruntled and don't want to work in
00:10:11
the workplace and that is not good for
00:10:13
productivity are not good for Innovation
00:10:15
so I think we have to be really careful
00:10:17
that
00:10:18
um we we have to create a space where
00:10:20
people can continuously improve and
00:10:23
realign their Visions in the workplace
00:10:25
and when we squeeze them for time like
00:10:27
this
00:10:28
um I I fear that this might be at a loss
00:10:32
both for the employees but also for the
00:10:34
companies
00:10:35
then what is the do you have kind of a
00:10:39
formula then do you think of what it
00:10:41
would take
00:10:42
to make a four day week work on all of
00:10:45
these different fronts because I think
00:10:47
that's the challenge that you know to to
00:10:50
get the best of both sides here yes yes
00:10:52
so I think uh what we should not do and
00:10:56
what I try to convey is we should not
00:10:59
take away the time and space where
00:11:02
people can hang out where people can
00:11:04
exchange ideas and learn from each other
00:11:07
in the workplace and align their Vision
00:11:09
with the different layers in the
00:11:10
hierarchy that is important I think
00:11:12
moving to four day workweed should not
00:11:14
mean that we take away meaning time a
00:11:17
meeting time and where people are just
00:11:20
there and implement the work I think
00:11:23
that is the that is the concern I I have
00:11:25
here so I think what we need to Simply
00:11:28
do if people say I can or only want to
00:11:31
work four days a week and the companies
00:11:33
are happy with that then basically we
00:11:35
need to shrink all components of this
00:11:38
um
00:11:39
I have a worry that you know if we do
00:11:42
this then this might lead some companies
00:11:43
to
00:11:45
um actually do away with all these
00:11:47
people who want to work four days a week
00:11:49
so here again going back to Germany
00:11:51
afterwards um there was a a very senior
00:11:55
politician who actually took over one of
00:11:57
the few competitive companies in East
00:11:58
Germany which is size econ you know the
00:12:01
lenses and Optical measurement
00:12:02
instruments which was like very
00:12:04
competitive then and then we when he
00:12:06
thought when people asked him about the
00:12:08
four day work week he said that you know
00:12:10
I don't know maybe the Futures that
00:12:11
people are just working on Tuesdays
00:12:13
right is that is that what we're going
00:12:15
forward obviously not so my concern is
00:12:17
that when people are shrinking down the
00:12:19
jobs in a compartmentalized way that can
00:12:21
be done four-day work week
00:12:22
they might just as well subcontract them
00:12:24
because people who only show up for part
00:12:27
of the week they're much less integrated
00:12:28
in the workplace much harder to manage
00:12:31
um and you know much harder to supervise
00:12:33
if they're not there a lot so this is a
00:12:37
slippery slope and I think not what
00:12:39
companies and employees actually want
00:12:41
well and and playing off of something
00:12:43
you said a moment ago we're also at a
00:12:45
time right now coming out of the
00:12:47
pandemic where uh work from home remote
00:12:49
work is it has grown for a lot of people
00:12:53
you also have more and more focus on
00:12:56
things like benefits and while those are
00:12:59
great for a lot of the employees kind of
00:13:01
off of what you said the potential is
00:13:04
that it could have a negative impact
00:13:07
because you have the options of chat GPT
00:13:09
and other words to be able to get rid of
00:13:12
employees and not have them working a
00:13:14
four day week where some of these would
00:13:16
be benefits for them
00:13:18
yeah I think this is the the big
00:13:20
discussion now I mean we want to create
00:13:21
a workplace where benefits are better
00:13:23
this is really having better benefits is
00:13:26
very very instrumental for large
00:13:28
sections of the of the population
00:13:30
especially those who uh you know have a
00:13:33
weaker social environment you know think
00:13:35
for instance of single mothers they they
00:13:38
really heavily depend on these benefits
00:13:40
to actually be able to participant labor
00:13:42
force so it's it's very proactive to
00:13:44
have these benefits around and there are
00:13:45
lots of studies that show that these
00:13:46
benefits are conducive in the long run
00:13:48
for better productivity
00:13:50
um so but on the other hand when
00:13:53
companies see this they might say SSA
00:13:54
just we don't hire them and then we just
00:13:57
subcontract them
00:13:59
but again the My worry is that if you
00:14:01
subcontract something it is not the same
00:14:04
as having an employee because these
00:14:06
persons are not really integrated in the
00:14:08
routines and the culture of the
00:14:10
workplace and uh they they don't have a
00:14:13
say of shaping the workplace in a most
00:14:15
effective way and employees are at the
00:14:17
Forefront of the work they know what uh
00:14:20
what are the challenges at the at the
00:14:21
front lines so this this feedback loop
00:14:24
leads to better productivity and by with
00:14:26
a subcontractor you don't have that at
00:14:28
all so I I think people need to
00:14:32
think about carefully what uh what they
00:14:35
miss out on or what they lose where they
00:14:37
move to a four day work week or when
00:14:39
they are moving to subcontracting and I
00:14:42
think you know before they work week is
00:14:44
a intermediate step to just Outsourcing
00:14:47
and subcontracting and not for uh better
00:14:50
uh workplace environment and when we're
00:14:52
talking about this realistically we're
00:14:54
not talking about all jobs here we're
00:14:56
talking about even within companies
00:14:58
there are probably certain jobs that
00:15:00
maybe would would fit in that category
00:15:02
yeah and other jobs that would not and
00:15:04
you could probably say that by business
00:15:06
and by sector as well that there are
00:15:09
some companies that could probably do it
00:15:10
other companies that would not be able
00:15:11
to do it
00:15:13
yeah
00:15:14
um I mean if you think about it when you
00:15:16
say oh let's what are the jobs that wow
00:15:18
would really work well uh for a four day
00:15:20
work week you might say oh these are
00:15:21
people jobs that are pretty routine uh
00:15:24
where okay you and you just do the job
00:15:28
but it's well defined what the tasks are
00:15:30
it's well defined what the what has to
00:15:31
be done
00:15:33
um but it turns out I think many people
00:15:35
who actually push for the four day work
00:15:36
week are not those people these are the
00:15:38
people who push for the further they
00:15:39
work with are those who actually are
00:15:41
quite competitive in the labor market
00:15:43
they say oh you know I want to perhaps
00:15:45
do other things perhaps they want to do
00:15:46
another job on this side uh or or
00:15:50
another career development on the side
00:15:52
and those are people who actually have
00:15:54
many of these non-routine tasks and they
00:15:56
are not all that great to be translated
00:15:59
to a four-day work week
00:16:01
think about this if you are running a
00:16:02
team and you have a big project with
00:16:05
many team members and in addition to the
00:16:08
complexity of the team you of the task
00:16:10
you also have to keep track on who's
00:16:13
there when you know when is the day five
00:16:16
when they're away because it's not that
00:16:17
it's Friday where they all go home it
00:16:19
will be all over the place so this comes
00:16:22
with a lot of coordination logistical
00:16:24
problems for companies when they
00:16:26
actually have to do these non-routine
00:16:28
complicated tasks so this is the
00:16:31
interesting thing where the people who
00:16:33
push for it are actually not the ones
00:16:34
who uh who would be the most uh most
00:16:37
amidable to have these kinds of tasks
00:16:39
and these kinds of job designs
00:16:42
what do you think then is the potential
00:16:44
like Downstream impact of this idea of
00:16:47
the four-day work week kind of being
00:16:49
implemented here potentially in the
00:16:51
United States
00:16:53
um you know
00:16:54
I think it's first of all I think it's
00:16:56
great that companies and organizations
00:16:58
always explore new uh new ideas as I
00:17:02
said we had experience in the past they
00:17:05
were from a very very different context
00:17:07
and sometimes ideas that were used in a
00:17:10
different scenario can generate a very
00:17:14
unintended benefits in a new scenario so
00:17:16
I think it's fantastic to see this in
00:17:18
the workplace in the US that companies
00:17:20
are always exploring new ideas and I'm I
00:17:22
look forward to see you know what what
00:17:24
else we are going to learn
00:17:26
and what we have learned so far makes me
00:17:28
a little bit worried as I say you know
00:17:30
what we've learned so far is that people
00:17:31
are just cutting out unproductive
00:17:33
meeting time uh that sounds of course
00:17:36
very entertaining and resonates with a
00:17:37
lot of people but that leads me to say
00:17:40
well then perhaps you need to make the
00:17:41
meetings better and on the other hand
00:17:43
meetings are really important for Value
00:17:46
creation and reorganization that have
00:17:48
have to happen continuously
00:17:50
so I think I look forward to what else
00:17:53
we will learn as companies are exploring
00:17:55
this uh among the magnet portfolios or
00:17:57
other ideas that they have but if they
00:18:00
are if it's the same as in Germany in
00:18:04
1993 I think it will be a transitory
00:18:06
idea it is a reflection of companies
00:18:09
trying out things perhaps employees
00:18:10
pushing for it but after a while they
00:18:12
realize that this is just too
00:18:14
complicated to coordinate keeping track
00:18:17
of who is in the office when and people
00:18:20
as well perhaps want the Simplicity of a
00:18:22
nine-to-five job that they can depend on
00:18:24
and there's something to be said about
00:18:26
how we are kind of become entrenched in
00:18:29
our in our patterns and our history here
00:18:32
in the United States yeah and it's and
00:18:33
it's quite a bit harder to be able to
00:18:35
break from those patterns oh absolutely
00:18:37
yeah and there you have like the binary
00:18:39
situation where either people stay in a
00:18:41
certain pattern or companies just
00:18:44
immediately jump over to subcontracting
00:18:46
and that is kind of the slippery slower
00:18:48
I'm worried about both for the employees
00:18:50
and the organizations to to move more
00:18:53
into subcontracting Yvonne great to talk
00:18:55
to you as always thanks very much for
00:18:57
your Insight yeah this was very
00:18:58
interesting thank you have a great time
00:19:00
you too Yvonne Baron K associate
00:19:02
professor of management here at the
00:19:04
Wharton School
00:19:06
thank you for listening to the ripple
00:19:08
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00:19:09
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Insight from the warden School
