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our guest today is Ravi Kumar president
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of emphasis and we are speaking with him
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about how the emerging world of
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Technology will shape the jobs of the
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future
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Ravi thank you so much for speaking with
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knowledge it was named local for the
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opportunity so I won't talk to start by
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talking about a recent panel at the
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Milken conference that you were a
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participant and one of the things that
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you said on that panel is that seventy
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five million old jobs will go away by
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2022 and 135 million new jobs will be
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created because of new technologies so
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the two questions I have are how will
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the jobs of the future be different than
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the jobs that are being eliminated and
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what are the main factors that are
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driving this change thank you so much
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Mukul that's a that's a great question
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actually in fact every large enterprise
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and every large you know government
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ecosystem is thinking about this fact
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about automation AI machine learning and
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new age digital technology is taking
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away jobs of the past and creating jobs
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of the future that's happened in most
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tech revolutions in the past but this
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this to me is one of the biggest and
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it's a tectonic shift in the way
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businesses and operating models have
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evolved in the last few years I would
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think there will be fundamentally two
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big shifts the first being a lot of
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repetitive tasks are going to be
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automated with machines and AI software
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in your workspace so when that happens
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the cognitive non repetitive tasks will
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be done by humans so that's one big
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shift so humans have to start looking at
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it as a way to amplify their jobs using
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machines to amplify the jobs and the
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shift from repetative to non repetitive
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tasks so that's a big shift the second I
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would say and this is one of my
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favorites institutions enterprises will
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from people workplace to a people plus
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machine workplace and if I extend the
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thought they will move from people plus
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gig plus machines machines will do the
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problem-solving the gig the gig economy
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which will give you variability of your
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workforce agility of your workforce and
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scale and the private human capital you
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have as I call it you know I kind of
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make this distinction of public and
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private human capital will switch to
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creative jobs or problem finding so
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repetative test to non-repetitive and
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the second is moving from problem
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solving to problem finding or more
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creative jobs so humans will then you
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know switch to transition to creative
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jobs so these are the two big shifts in
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the way work packets and in workplaces
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won't be so I'd like to drill a little
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deeper into into this issue but before
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we do that what are some of the
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opportunities and some of the challenges
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in implementing this vision that you
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just described you know the fundamental
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shift on this is is lifelong learning
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you know all of us have moved from you
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know at least when I grew up we we had a
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linear equation of studies to work and I
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call that linear straight line and we're
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going to move to a continuum of lifelong
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learning which essentially means you
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have to be a lifelong learner and you
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have to learn to learn and learn to
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unlearn and learn to learn that switch
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is a big switch for individuals to have
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a culture of being on that learning
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curve for all their lives so that's
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there that's a big switch in the way you
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see see things the second aspect is and
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we kind of discussed in one of our
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previous conversations which is about
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curiosity or problem finding lines
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between industries have blurred as lines
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between industries have blurred you have
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to start thinking in a much
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cross-functional way
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there isn't a discipline or a
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disciplinary approach to work anymore
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and that will that will make disciplines
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beyond core engineering and stem which
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was used for core technologies to
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diverse into a much cognitive diverse
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pool and I think in the digital age
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applying technologies to businesses will
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be a much bigger virtue than the
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technology itself so on one side of the
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spectrum you need deep programmers on
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the other side of the spectrum you need
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individuals who can contextualize it to
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businesses and apply it which means they
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need to be they need to be people who
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can actually find problems people who
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can actually apply to businesses so you
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need a much diverse workforce coming
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from liberal arts coming from design
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coming from humanity coming from
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anthropology and disciplines of that
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kind that's a big shift from the
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previous era where the tech revolution
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kind of got a braced with technologists
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and technologists actually created the
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divide and this is an opportunity to
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actually bridge the divide interesting I
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mean what you're saying makes a lot of
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sense and I wonder I've been given your
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role at Infosys you probably see a lot
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of different companies in different
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industries across the world based on
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your perspective which industries do you
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think are best prepared for this shift
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and which countries are best prepared to
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offer these changes in the future of
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jobs samokhin you know that's a that's a
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very intriguing question I would say you
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know industries which had a legacy of
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adoption of core technologies or
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traditional technologies
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counter-intuitively
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have a much difficult task of
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repurposing themselves because they have
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a legacy to deal with so that's one
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aspect of reflecting which industry will
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play a role which essentially means you
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could leapfrog multiple
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if you're in industry which not which
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did not adapt to traditional
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technologies and be ahead of the curve
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you have that opportunity now if you
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have not done it in the previous era the
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second way of seeing this is industry
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lines are blurring you know every time I
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meet a CX of a of an enterprise they're
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not worried about the peers they worried
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about what other industries are doing
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because they don't know who their
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competition is you know if I meet a bank
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CSC XO of a bank most times I get to
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hear tell us what you're doing with
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retail clients we want to know about
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them and the same with all other
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industries so industry lines are
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blurring so you really don't know where
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to actually how to measure you know what
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you want to benchmark yourself with so
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that's one other aspect of seeing this
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if I go back to society's or countries
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countries in the Asia Pacific the
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emerging ones like India China which did
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not have legacy systems and legacy
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processes to deal with a leapfrogging
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and creating digital platforms which are
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significantly superior to some of the
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developed nations and that's because the
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developed nations have a deal with a
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legacy and when they have to deal with
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the legacy they have to repurpose
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financial capital to fund the new and
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they have to repurpose human capital to
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fund new while the emerging economies
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have this if they have the vision they
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have the opportunity to leapfrog into a
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completely new digital paradigm without
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even bothering what the legacy is all
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about so I kind of have and that's why I
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said it's very intriguing who is gonna
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win win the race if I look at China
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which traditionally did labor arbitrage
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to create a massive manufacturing
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ecosystem today is in an inflection
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point at the crossroads where automation
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can take away that leverage of labor
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arbitrage because the percentage of
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Labor Robert percentage of labor in a in
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a manufacturing shop floor is going down
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and it could reassure manufacturing back
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to the developed nations if they don't
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embrace automation
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in a big way so I would think this is
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this is a very complicated you know
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paradox of sorts for economies to deal
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with it right well I think that both
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what you're saying is fascinating
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because if you take a country like China
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do you see this model that you described
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earlier of people plus machines plus gig
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do you see that playing out into China
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and and how is it differ different from
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the way it plays out say in a place like
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the US so it does you know in fact I
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actually think if you look at density of
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robots on a shop floor China doesn't
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rank number one Korea ranks ranks much
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higher than them
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Taiwan drags higher than them for the
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manufacturing manufacturing space
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Germany is doing pretty well in fact a
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lot of a lot of manufacturing is getting
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restored back so China really has to
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scale up on it and they have to
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cannibalize their ownselves
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to to get there and that's the point I
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was making earlier being an incumbent is
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not necessarily a competitive advantage
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in in a era where you can leapfrog and
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create necessarily a completely
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different operating model I think that
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that that's true moving slightly away
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from manufacturing into a service sector
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see like banking and insurance as you
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look to the future of work in these in a
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sector like banking and financial
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services what kind of jobs do you think
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are likely to go away and what kind of
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new jobs will come into being as a
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result of these technology shifts that
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are going on yeah you know going to a
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bank to do a transaction the traditional
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way of doing it is going to switch to
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the bank coming to your home and the
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band coming to your app and that's
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that's happened in literally in every
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country in the world and in fact in the
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emerging markets the amount of
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transactions you can do do online and do
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in a digital way and the digital Bank is
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much much superior to
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doing it you know if you if you go to
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developing nations because they're just
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leapfrogged you know multiple leaders to
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get there so that's taken the whole
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banking revolution into a very different
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paradigm if you go to underdeveloped
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nations the unbanked which is a
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significant population in in
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underdeveloped nations are getting
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access to a bank through the mobile
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phone you know all of Africa does
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banking on mobile phone and mobile
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service providers are becoming banks for
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for those citizens so banking has taken
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a very different paradigm in
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underdeveloped nations where you can
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literally Bank you know you can bank the
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unbanked by by very different industry
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industry paradigm and the and and the
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lines between these industries are
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blurring because everybody has a chance
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to be a bank of the future for those for
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those for those nations so how many jobs
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of the future need to balance between
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technical skills on the one hand and
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emotional and social skills on the other
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hand and also what are some of the
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implications for blue-collar and
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white-collar work that you see coming
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down the road that's a fascinating
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question because you know as much as
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technologies of the future are going to
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change the paradigm of work workforces
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and workplaces as well on one side you
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need deep programming skills to build
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these technologies I think the bigger
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virtue is to apply this technologies to
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businesses apply this technologies to a
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personal lives and our professional
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lives and the societies we live in and
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that embrace will need an emotional
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quotient a empathy quotient to make
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technology live our lives better finally
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that's what technology is all about it
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has to make lives better and for that to
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happen
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my sense is we're gonna move not just
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having deep programming skills with stem
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stem talent but we're going to have
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inclusion of liberal arts an inclusion
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of design an inclusion of humanities
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inclusion of disciplines which are
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completely away from the stem
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you know the stem equivalent if I'm an
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and that never happened in the tech
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space when the tech revolution happened
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it is going to happen in the digital age
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when these when these technologies are
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going to be embraced across industries
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and it will give you the emotional and
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the and the and the human aspect of of
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technology so I think liberal arts
00:14:05
design and disciplines of this kind will
00:14:07
play a much bigger virtue I also believe
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that we're going to move from T skills
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to Z skills and this is my you know my
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way of articulating it these skills are
00:14:19
the skills where you specialize in an
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idea but you kind of have a broad
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embrace on things around you and that's
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how you know educational ecosystems are
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built we're going to move to Z skills
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which means you learn unlearn and learn
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on a constant basis and there isn't a
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discipline so I almost call it an entire
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disciplinary approach to education so
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you're spot on you know the technology
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is important but a bigger virtue is to
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apply them in a human and an empathetic
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way to businesses that's that's the
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future right as you think about the
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future of work and I know you think a
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lot about it some of the biggest risks
00:15:04
that keep you up at night yeah and what
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do you hear from the people you talk to
00:15:08
in different companies and different
00:15:09
industries what are they most worried
00:15:12
about what can be done about those risks
00:15:14
to do it so that everyone can sleep
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better at night yeah I think you're you
00:15:19
know this is a follow-up question but
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you you teed it up before I asking the
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blue collar and white collar it's kind
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of in the same space zone you know
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across the world everybody now
00:15:29
recognizes rescaling is very important
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repurposing
00:15:33
is very important but everybody is
00:15:35
talking about rescaling white-collar
00:15:37
jobs what happens to blue-collar jobs
00:15:38
what happens to a factory worker what
00:15:41
happens to a technician what happens to
00:15:43
a bartender there was this distinctive
00:15:46
difference between blue and white collar
00:15:48
jobs and how you scale and rescale in
00:15:50
the past but the embrace of digital is
00:15:52
so overarching and so pervasive that we
00:15:56
need to start thinking about blue collar
00:15:57
jobs and I think you know that line will
00:16:00
blur and you're gonna have new college
00:16:01
options very little infrastructure has
00:16:03
been established for blue collar jobs or
00:16:07
jobs of the future so that's a big risk
00:16:10
I I believe and that's a that's an
00:16:13
uphill task because they're not ready to
00:16:15
get rescaled and you are almost pushing
00:16:19
them to rescale in fact our own
00:16:20
initiative on community colleges is a
00:16:22
phenomenal example of how we're trying
00:16:24
to do that the second aspect Mukul I
00:16:26
don't know whether you have thought
00:16:26
about it for this rescaling task which
00:16:30
is such a such a big mission governments
00:16:37
academic institutions and enterprises
00:16:39
have to come together to to take the
00:16:44
owners you know who own set is it the
00:16:46
employee or the enterprise or the
00:16:48
government or the academic institutions
00:16:49
who owns it but you know governments
00:16:52
have wired in a very different way
00:16:53
governments are wired for the first 15
00:16:54
to 20 years of their of citizens lives
00:16:57
and they're wired for the last 20 years
00:16:59
of citizens lives but all this change
00:17:02
happens in the middle and all the risk
00:17:04
killing is needed in the middle and how
00:17:07
do government's re-architect then their
00:17:09
own infrastructure to to deal with the
00:17:12
middle I think is a big risk we all
00:17:15
foresee and how do the educational
00:17:18
ecosystems get up to create lifelong
00:17:21
learners I think these are the three
00:17:22
things I would say I would lose sleep on
00:17:25
how is Infosys what his interest is
00:17:28
doing to try to mitigate some of these
00:17:30
risks so you know you know in our own
00:17:32
small way we are making impact on all
00:17:34
these three areas we have a learning
00:17:37
platform called wingspan which is being
00:17:41
which is a platform for enterprises to
00:17:44
create learn
00:17:46
for their employees this is our own
00:17:47
customers not just our employees and
00:17:49
that is to create an embrace of learning
00:17:53
across the enterprise including
00:17:55
blue-collar jobs in the in the aspect
00:18:00
round round working with governments we
00:18:04
are very actively pursuing with
00:18:05
governments in fact what we are hiring
00:18:07
from schools in the US with our six
00:18:10
centers is a is a partnership with local
00:18:13
state governments and academic
00:18:15
institutions to create future talent
00:18:18
talent which does not exist in the
00:18:19
market and to create lifelong learners
00:18:22
we have the Infosys foundation in the
00:18:24
United States which is in the top three
00:18:26
foundations for computer science
00:18:28
education in k-12 schools and our
00:18:31
endeavor is to teach teachers so that
00:18:34
they are equipped enough to teach
00:18:35
students and teach students and we're
00:18:38
doing this a massive scale and I think
00:18:43
that's in a small way our contribution
00:18:45
to theirs I would say challenges and
00:18:49
opportunities of the future then end
00:18:52
with one last question let's imagine
00:18:54
that among the people who are listening
00:18:56
to this conversation there are some
00:18:59
young people who are just about to
00:19:02
graduate from college and enter the
00:19:03
workforce for the first time what advice
00:19:06
would you give them about things that
00:19:09
they can do today so that they can have
00:19:12
a meaningful career over the next 30 to
00:19:14
40 years you know that's a that's a
00:19:17
phenomenal question you know I actually
00:19:19
think being a lifelong learner it's
00:19:24
probably the most important aspect of
00:19:25
this and because I can academic
00:19:31
institutions the way they're wired you
00:19:33
finish higher studies you get to work
00:19:34
and you think you're done with learning
00:19:36
I think you need to get back into the
00:19:40
mind frame of being a lifelong which
00:19:42
essentially means what you learn today
00:19:43
will will get obsolete and in literally
00:19:47
in a few a few months sort of or or less
00:19:50
than a year and you should be prepared
00:19:52
to challenge the status quo and and
00:19:56
create your own you know your own career
00:19:59
path
00:19:59
that and that I think is the only way
00:20:03
you could be on this constant learning
00:20:05
journey I would say that's the that's
00:20:08
the area we are all entering into and if
00:20:10
they want to stay relevant they have to
00:20:12
be paranoid about the change around them
00:20:14
and accordingly react Andy Grove the
00:20:19
former CEO of Intel used to say only the
00:20:22
paranoid survive you know that that
00:20:25
might be a good mindset you know
00:20:26
absolute for the future absolutely
00:20:28
Robbie thank you so much for speaking
00:20:30
with knowledge at Wharton Thank You
00:20:31
McCool for this opportunity thank you so
00:20:33
much for more insight from knowledge at
00:20:37
Wharton please visit knowledge Wharton
00:20:40
UPenn edu
00:20:44
[Music]
00:20:48
you
