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so the paper is about the different
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kinds of moves that people make in their
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careers and trying to understand the
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differences between them so obviously
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these days most people in their careers
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sometimes they move jobs inside firms
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they get a promotion maybe they move to
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different function a lot of times
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obviously people move across firms as
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well and so what we look at is do those
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moves have different kinds of effects it
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pretty much the same so you move to a
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job doesn't really matter if it's in the
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same company or a different one or is it
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that you're really doing quite different
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things when you move jobs inside firms
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versus across them um and so that's the
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basic goal of the paper we looked at it
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so we did a survey a few years ago of
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our alumni here at Warton and ask them
00:00:47
about all of the jobs that they had held
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and we use that to kind of disentangle
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which are the jobs that have to
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disentangle when did they move jobs
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inside organizations when did they move
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across and what happened to them when
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they made those
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moves so we found quite big differences
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between the moves that took place inside
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the firms and the moves that took place
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across the firms um when people were
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moving inside firms we saw they got a
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pay raise um they also CAU quite big
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increase in responsibilities so they
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tended to rise up in terms of their
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title and they pretty much doubled the
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number of people that they were managing
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when people moved um jobs across firms
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they also got a pay raise but it didn't
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tend to come with an increase in
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responsibilities instead they were
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moving to a job with often a similar
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title and usually with the same number
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of subordinates managing the same number
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of people and so they weren't
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necessarily getting a promotion in the
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same way so we saw you know kind of
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talks to different move different
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reasons for moving so when people are
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moving inside it's you know they're
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moving up the ladder when people are
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moving to jobs in other terms they're
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getting a pay raise they get paid to
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move but they're not making the same
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kind of move up the ladder they're
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moving to a similar rung orbe it in a
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different
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organization I think I was impressed by
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how Stark the differences were between
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um the internal and the external move so
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I had a sense from prior um prior
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research that probably you know a
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reasonable proportion of um moves
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between firms are in effect lateral the
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idea there being
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that employers know the people who work
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for them and so they have a sense that
00:02:37
they're doing good work and they're
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prepared to promote them if they're
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doing well obviously we don't know the
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people in other organizations and so it
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may often be that we feel a lot more
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comfortable bringing somebody who's
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really shown they can do that job
00:02:50
somewhere else and so there was a sense
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that we'd see quite a lot of hiring
00:02:54
being lateral the extent to which those
00:02:57
moves were kind of overwhelmingly
00:02:59
lateral I think surprised me so kind of
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just the sheer scale of the differences
00:03:02
between internal and
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external you know I think they have
00:03:09
implications on both the part of
00:03:12
obviously people pursuing their careers
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and certainly employers I mean one of
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the things we found so like I said when
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people move jobs they get a pay raise we
00:03:20
also looked at how much people were
00:03:21
being paid at the time of the survey and
00:03:24
how that related to the kinds of moves
00:03:26
they've made we found that the more
00:03:28
times that somebody had moved inside an
00:03:30
organization the more pay they were
00:03:32
receiving that kind of makes sense these
00:03:33
ly promotions you're getting up to the
00:03:35
next ladder the more promotions you've
00:03:36
had yeah we expect the more you should
00:03:38
be paid it turned out the number of
00:03:40
times have moved across firms um didn't
00:03:43
predict pay at all so it wasn't that
00:03:45
they were bad moves but they weren't
00:03:47
good either and I think what's going on
00:03:48
there is you know when you move across
00:03:50
firms you get a pay rise maybe 20%
00:03:54
something like that but what you do is
00:03:57
you delay your time often to the next
00:04:00
promotion um and so the tradeoff there
00:04:02
is a little more complicated and so you
00:04:05
know it does suggest that internal moves
00:04:08
are quite important in moving ahead in
00:04:09
your career so that's not saying don't
00:04:12
move externally we don't see a penalty
00:04:14
for moving externally but it does say I
00:04:16
think as people think about their
00:04:17
careers they want at various stages to
00:04:20
be able to kind of be promoted to move
00:04:22
up the ladder inside organizations and
00:04:25
so I get a bit nervous when people tell
00:04:28
me about their career plan I'm going to
00:04:29
go to this job you know there's not a
00:04:31
lot of head room but I'll get great
00:04:33
experience and I'll use that experience
00:04:34
to get hired into a higher level job
00:04:37
somewhere else that turns out to be
00:04:39
quite a hard transition to make and so I
00:04:41
think finding a job where there is room
00:04:44
to grow inside the organization you may
00:04:45
not want to stay at that organization
00:04:47
forever but at least get a rung or two
00:04:49
up the ladder enabling you to move out
00:04:51
to a higher rung elsewhere I think that
00:04:54
seems like a smarter career strategy um
00:04:57
on the employer side again they're kind
00:04:59
of you know I think it reiterated
00:05:02
something I found in my prior work which
00:05:03
was that when you're hiring from outside
00:05:06
you have to pay a lot right because you
00:05:08
have to pay whatever somebody was
00:05:10
getting doing the same job somewhere
00:05:12
else plus maybe 20% in order to get them
00:05:16
to move and so again that makes moving
00:05:19
people internally seem a lot
00:05:24
cheaper I mean I don't think there's
00:05:26
been a great deal of work really trying
00:05:28
to evaluate these kind of internal and
00:05:30
external moves um you know I think two
00:05:33
or three things that were nice um about
00:05:35
what we were able to do with this survey
00:05:38
um we were able to capture all the times
00:05:40
people have moved inside organizations I
00:05:42
think a lot of times when people have
00:05:43
tried to look at in this in the past
00:05:46
using some of the kind of big survey
00:05:49
data they've had to use fairly weak
00:05:51
measures of Moves Like if somebody
00:05:53
changed occupation or something like
00:05:55
that were able to just ask them about
00:05:57
all of the job moves that they had um
00:06:00
second nice thing I think often in these
00:06:02
surveys particular when people are
00:06:03
trying to understand the extent of
00:06:05
external Mobility you know there's
00:06:08
always a question about we know that
00:06:10
being laid off is very bad and so you
00:06:12
really have to
00:06:13
untangle voluntary moves from the
00:06:15
involuntary we were able to do that
00:06:17
reasonably well um in a way that other
00:06:19
research probably had I think the
00:06:22
biggest difference or the the one that I
00:06:24
found most valuable was really getting a
00:06:27
good measure of what people were doing
00:06:28
in each of these jobs so particularly
00:06:30
like you knowing these managerial jobs
00:06:32
how many people you manage is a
00:06:34
reasonable measure of responsibility so
00:06:37
having that in each job and really being
00:06:39
able to look at how that changed as
00:06:40
people move jobs I think you know gave
00:06:42
us an ability to really Advance on PRI
00:06:45
literature by understanding what's going
00:06:46
on during these
00:06:51
moves I think one of the areas that
00:06:54
we're looking at in detail is trying to
00:06:56
get a sense of um some of the more
00:07:00
specific paths that people follow as
00:07:02
they move across organizations and so
00:07:04
one of the things that I've been very
00:07:05
interested in is where do people start
00:07:09
their careers and where do they move to
00:07:11
subsequently and one of the interesting
00:07:13
things you see with this population is
00:07:15
there's a fairly small group of
00:07:16
organizations that people tend to move
00:07:19
into for their first jobs limited number
00:07:21
of investment Banks consulting firms big
00:07:24
corporates they hire a lot of these mbas
00:07:27
and then afterwards the mbas go off to a
00:07:28
wide variety y of um different
00:07:31
organizations and so getting a better
00:07:33
sense on why they're doing that how that
00:07:36
um fits in with firm strategies is
00:07:37
something I'm very interested in you
00:07:39
know another thing I think that a lot of
00:07:41
people as have asked me about this study
00:07:44
is about the differences between men and
00:07:47
women somewhat surprisingly we actually
00:07:49
see kind of similar effects in terms of
00:07:51
internal and external moves for both men
00:07:54
and women so there's not that doesn't
00:07:56
seem to be generating differences in how
00:07:58
men and women do in this sample
00:08:00
nonetheless there are big differences
00:08:02
and so women end up earning
00:08:05
substantially less and I think one of
00:08:06
the other questions were interesting
00:08:08
what are some of the industries that are
00:08:10
more female friendly and why and what
00:08:13
are some of the places and career PS
00:08:16
that particularly seem to penalize women
00:08:17
in the sample
00:08:29
[Music]
