00:00:00
scanning the environment seeing the
00:00:02
signs interpreting cues and making sense
00:00:04
of them as something so completely
00:00:06
innate in nature wholly native to
00:00:08
migratory animals and so hardwired in
00:00:11
their instinctive behavior and decision
00:00:12
making that it prompts the question why
00:00:15
do human beings so frequently fail to go
00:00:17
higher
00:00:18
McDonald's essay highlights something
00:00:21
critically important the best way to
00:00:23
survive a crisis is to watch for it and
00:00:25
see it coming before it's too late
00:00:27
it is about catching sight of the threat
00:00:30
soon enough to avert it or contain the
00:00:31
worst and giving yourself and your
00:00:34
organization the maneuverability to
00:00:35
prepare mitigate damage and plan
00:00:38
efficiently for recovery
00:00:39
this is the first phase of Crisis
00:00:42
management
00:00:43
welcome to the ripple effect the podcast
00:00:45
that takes you on a journey through the
00:00:48
minds of work and faculty I'm your host
00:00:50
Dan Loney and in each episode we'll be
00:00:52
diving deep into the inspiration behind
00:00:54
the groundbreaking research that Wharton
00:00:56
professors have conducted and exploring
00:00:59
how their findings resonate with the
00:01:01
world today we'll be covering a diverse
00:01:03
range of topics bringing you the latest
00:01:05
insights and knowledge that you can
00:01:08
apply to your life into work so get
00:01:10
ready to dive into new ideas with the
00:01:13
ripple effect
00:01:15
great to have joining us today Wharton
00:01:17
Dean Erica James who is a co-author of
00:01:19
the book The prepared leader emerged
00:01:21
from any crisis more resilient than
00:01:23
before Dean James great to have you with
00:01:25
us today thanks for your time thanks Dan
00:01:27
happy to be here thank you so obviously
00:01:29
we've all gone through crisis a lot in
00:01:31
the last few years
00:01:33
how do you view the the kind of the most
00:01:36
important components of a leader dealing
00:01:38
with crisis right now
00:01:40
so there are five things that I think
00:01:42
people need to think about in dealing
00:01:44
with the crisis typically when we think
00:01:46
of Crisis management we think of once
00:01:49
something has happened what do we do at
00:01:50
that point so it's sort of the response
00:01:52
to an event but as Leaders we think we
00:01:55
need to think about this notion of
00:01:58
signal detection what are we seeing in
00:02:00
the environment that might warn us that
00:02:02
our organization is vulnerable to
00:02:04
something we then need to prepare or
00:02:07
plan for that potential reality
00:02:10
then in those circumstances where we
00:02:12
can't prevent something from happening
00:02:13
we do have to respond when we find
00:02:15
ourselves in reaction mode the fourth
00:02:18
thing is to think about business
00:02:21
recovery at some point the crisis will
00:02:23
come to some sort of end and we've got
00:02:25
to get our organizations back on track
00:02:27
and recover from
00:02:28
what we've just experienced and then
00:02:31
lastly there's the learning from the
00:02:33
crisis how do we do we take time to stop
00:02:35
and reflect on what we've just
00:02:37
experienced what can we learn to make us
00:02:40
a better organization going forward to
00:02:42
make us more capable of dealing with the
00:02:44
next threat or prevent the next threat
00:02:47
from happening how has that played out
00:02:49
for you personally especially
00:02:51
considering when you came to Wharton we
00:02:53
were obviously right in the midst of the
00:02:55
crisis I mean that's a unique component
00:02:57
in a person's career to take over such
00:03:00
an important role in in the time of a
00:03:02
crisis like that right so Dan what
00:03:04
you're describing is my joining Wharton
00:03:07
in July of 2020 which was just a few
00:03:09
months into the into the pandemic the
00:03:12
school at that time was completely
00:03:14
remote I moved to a new city started a
00:03:17
new role interacted with my colleagues
00:03:19
whom I had never met before for at least
00:03:22
six to nine months all on Zoom never
00:03:25
having met anyone in person or spent any
00:03:27
time on campus
00:03:29
so I think the thing that I needed to
00:03:31
think about was what can I do to
00:03:33
establish myself as a leader and as
00:03:36
someone who was trustworthy that they
00:03:38
could feel confident getting behind as
00:03:40
I'm leading this organization that I
00:03:42
literally knew very little about because
00:03:44
I just had no
00:03:46
time or experience with with Wharton
00:03:48
before coming here and so I think
00:03:50
focusing on building those relationships
00:03:52
even though they were over Zoom uh
00:03:55
identifying ways that would allow me to
00:03:57
have credibility that they could trust
00:04:00
me in some ways those were the important
00:04:01
things that I needed to do I think it's
00:04:04
also interesting because we've had a
00:04:06
time where uh it there's been a lot of
00:04:09
pivots and I think a lot of people have
00:04:11
pivoted coming out of the pandemic
00:04:13
especially in leadership in in making
00:04:16
changes and adapting to what is kind of
00:04:19
a new normal it's really important to
00:04:21
use the phrase New Normal uh oftentimes
00:04:24
when people are going through a crisis
00:04:25
what they think about is how do I get
00:04:27
back to normal how do we go back to the
00:04:29
way things were and what I always
00:04:31
encourage people to think about is if
00:04:33
you're going back to something you have
00:04:36
to recognize that the environment the
00:04:38
world the competitors around you have
00:04:40
all been
00:04:42
moving forward and so if you think about
00:04:44
going back then you're setting yourself
00:04:46
and your organization up for failure
00:04:47
right so the thing is how do we think
00:04:49
about what does the new environment
00:04:51
cause us to need to do differently and
00:04:54
this is also where learning really comes
00:04:56
into play because if we reflect on how
00:04:58
we are a different organization if we
00:05:00
reflect on the new skills that we've
00:05:01
gained if we've reflect on the
00:05:03
experiences that we've had we're more
00:05:05
likely to Envision a different future
00:05:08
that we can drive towards rather than
00:05:10
going back to the way things were so
00:05:12
when businesses are going through
00:05:14
quote-unquote crisis I know you talk
00:05:17
about this in the book about the
00:05:18
importance of the crisis leadership team
00:05:20
of being able to have that that core
00:05:23
together as well yes so many companies
00:05:27
do not a priori identify a team of
00:05:31
people that will carry the organization
00:05:33
under unusual circumstances we tend to
00:05:36
rely on our direct reports who is our
00:05:39
head of marketing who is our general
00:05:40
counsel who's our head of HR right
00:05:43
because that's the team that we
00:05:45
typically work with but that team isn't
00:05:48
always the right team to lead an
00:05:50
organization through a crisis many of
00:05:53
those roles and responsibilities are
00:05:55
necessary but there are also things you
00:05:57
have to consider that you don't have to
00:05:59
consider in the day-to-day running of a
00:06:00
business so building the team means
00:06:02
identifying a set of skills or
00:06:05
competencies or experiences that people
00:06:07
have that might not exist on your team
00:06:10
of direct reports are there
00:06:12
common mistakes that leaders make when
00:06:16
they're in time of crisis
00:06:18
so the biggest common mistake is
00:06:21
actually part of human nature so
00:06:24
go back to your five-year-old self and
00:06:27
you get caught doing something you're
00:06:29
not supposed to do right right and the
00:06:32
first thing you say is it wasn't me
00:06:33
right right we immediately want to deny
00:06:36
our involvement in something bad right
00:06:39
that carries with us even into our
00:06:42
adulthood so when we experience a crisis
00:06:45
we assume the crisis is something bad we
00:06:48
don't want to be associated with it so
00:06:49
we tend to engage in avoidance behavior
00:06:52
or denial behavior all of these things
00:06:54
that disassociate us from that event and
00:06:58
that's really problematic because that's
00:07:00
time and energy that we could be using
00:07:03
to identify the appropriate
00:07:05
communication and narrative that we want
00:07:07
to put around this that could be time
00:07:09
and attention that we could be doing
00:07:10
something more uh proactive to help
00:07:13
address the situation as opposed to
00:07:14
denying so that's I think the one common
00:07:16
thing that many leaders engage in well
00:07:18
and certainly then when you talk about
00:07:19
what we went through with the pandemic
00:07:21
but it obviously plays out in a variety
00:07:23
of different so essential crises is the
00:07:26
element of stress because when you have
00:07:28
this I think there's a lot within your
00:07:31
body within your mindset that just amps
00:07:33
up the level of stress that you deal
00:07:35
with absolutely so in the research and
00:07:39
this is long-standing research what we
00:07:41
find is that in times of stress or times
00:07:44
of threat when people feel particularly
00:07:46
vulnerable
00:07:47
they engage in something called threat
00:07:50
rigidity so there's an external threat
00:07:51
we instinctively our body becomes rigid
00:07:54
we become more narrow in our thinking we
00:07:58
become less creative we become
00:08:01
more restricted to the the people with
00:08:04
whom we're going to interact so all of
00:08:07
that restriction that rigidity then
00:08:09
prevents us from being able to really
00:08:11
engage in effective problem solving
00:08:13
so with covid it was obviously something
00:08:16
we had never gone through before
00:08:18
and I think that element of the unknown
00:08:21
in terms of a type of Crisis is probably
00:08:24
something that's a challenge for a lot
00:08:26
of leaders is not
00:08:28
absolutely and I mean that is the core
00:08:31
definition of a crisis it's something
00:08:33
that we've not experienced before it's
00:08:34
something that we don't have the
00:08:35
resources or the experience or or some
00:08:39
guidebook with the answers and and
00:08:42
what we should do differently so
00:08:45
um crises are unique circumstances and
00:08:49
because they are unique because we've
00:08:50
not experiences and we don't know what
00:08:51
to do so most often we're making things
00:08:54
up as we go
00:08:55
which is fine but we've got to always
00:08:58
sort of reflect on was that most recent
00:09:02
decision the right decision if yes then
00:09:04
let's keep going if not we need to Pivot
00:09:06
and and try something else so there's
00:09:08
this constant feedback loop and
00:09:10
experimentation that's happening when
00:09:12
we're trying to address a crisis it
00:09:14
isn't there also just the learning from
00:09:16
going through that crisis so that
00:09:19
whether it's the same thing the same
00:09:21
type of Crisis happening down the road
00:09:23
or something different you have that
00:09:26
experience you have that knowledge so
00:09:27
that you can be better prepared for that
00:09:29
next time
00:09:31
you would think in theory yes that's how
00:09:33
it's supposed to work but what
00:09:35
oftentimes happens is we so want to be
00:09:38
finished with the crisis it takes a lot
00:09:41
out of you you're exhausted the notion
00:09:43
of going back and reflecting and taking
00:09:45
those lessons learned that they can be
00:09:47
applied to a future event is less likely
00:09:50
to happen because most of us don't
00:09:51
invest in the learning process which is
00:09:54
that fifth stage that I that I described
00:09:56
so
00:09:58
yes in theory we should be able to have
00:10:01
gone through an experience once taken
00:10:03
those lessons learned from it so that
00:10:04
the next time it happens we're better
00:10:06
prepared but too many of us don't go
00:10:09
through that after action review is what
00:10:11
they call it in the military I think a
00:10:13
lot of times in companies employees and
00:10:16
managers they expect their leaders to be
00:10:19
prepared and and they hope that they are
00:10:21
prepared
00:10:22
but can we actually quantify the value
00:10:26
of having a prepared leader I mean I I
00:10:29
think it's it's probably unique to
00:10:31
especially what's what's happened with
00:10:33
covet the last three years right so I
00:10:35
mean it would be a fascinating
00:10:38
study trying to identify what are the
00:10:40
variables for which we could quantify
00:10:42
preparation in our leaders but one of
00:10:44
the things that we know for example is
00:10:46
that many crises cost a lot of money
00:10:48
whether it's in legal fees whether it's
00:10:50
in you know damage control all sorts of
00:10:53
things so you can quantify by looking at
00:10:57
um you know how much a particular crisis
00:11:00
costs I just came back from Maui for
00:11:02
example I was on Maui when the fires
00:11:05
broke out and you see every day the
00:11:07
escalating cost in terms of the human
00:11:10
capital the death toll is rising every
00:11:12
day for a period of time you can see the
00:11:14
escalating costs in terms of the
00:11:16
financially how much this is going to
00:11:18
cost so those are metrics by which we
00:11:21
can determine the cost of a crisis it's
00:11:23
unclear yet how we determine how
00:11:26
effective a particular leader was
00:11:28
because it's a one-off situation right
00:11:31
we don't necessarily have a control
00:11:32
group
00:11:33
in those situations but it would be
00:11:36
worthwhile exploring that so we're
00:11:39
obviously at an age right now where
00:11:40
technology has such a a huge impact on
00:11:43
our lives I wonder how much and and
00:11:47
crises then I think also play in with
00:11:49
what we're going through with uh the
00:11:52
impact of hacking and and and and and
00:11:54
that impact on business uh that the
00:11:57
element of Technology can I think assist
00:12:00
the leader in terms of mitigating a lot
00:12:03
of these problems as well right again it
00:12:06
perhaps so we would hope so it is a tool
00:12:09
that can be used for exactly that
00:12:11
purpose
00:12:12
sometimes people use Technologies in
00:12:15
ways that are actually more damning than
00:12:18
helpful if they use social media for
00:12:20
example in ways to cast revenge or to
00:12:25
dis you know dispute antagonism or
00:12:29
frustration or anger or hostility for
00:12:31
whatever has happened in that crisis
00:12:33
then that is not a very effective use of
00:12:35
technology and in fact it could be more
00:12:37
problematic in the book that I wrote
00:12:39
with my co-author the prepared leader we
00:12:41
actually talk about it a couple of
00:12:43
examples where the CEO has
00:12:47
um you know used technology social media
00:12:49
and other Platforms in ways that costs
00:12:53
him his job and the organization a lot
00:12:56
of a lot of money if we use technology
00:12:59
for purposes of soliciting support and
00:13:02
help and guidance and communicating
00:13:04
what's happening on a day-to-day basis
00:13:06
and those kinds of things then yes it
00:13:08
absolutely is an effective tool I've
00:13:10
heard you talk about your co-author Lynn
00:13:12
Perry Wooten and the importance she's
00:13:15
kind of meant to you as a mentor in
00:13:17
terms of you're building up your career
00:13:19
for leaders in general how important do
00:13:21
you think it is to have that sounding
00:13:23
board that that extra component to to
00:13:26
helping build your leadership skills
00:13:28
it's a great question it is so vitally
00:13:31
important so that the notion that it's
00:13:33
Lonely at the Top there's a lot of Truth
00:13:35
to that because primarily because there
00:13:39
are so few people who can relate to what
00:13:41
you are experiencing everyone else in
00:13:43
the organization when you are the
00:13:45
president when you are the CEO when you
00:13:47
are the dean there's no one else within
00:13:50
the organization that fully understands
00:13:52
the scope and complexity of the work
00:13:54
that you're doing and then you add on
00:13:55
top of that a crisis you realize even
00:13:58
more how alone you are and so having
00:14:01
someone else in another organization in
00:14:03
another field who understands
00:14:06
that role I think it's really invaluable
00:14:10
and I guess that can kind of even go
00:14:12
down the chain a little bit it doesn't
00:14:13
have to necessarily always be the
00:14:15
c-suite but think about middle level
00:14:16
level management and what that person
00:14:19
has a leader at that level of the
00:14:21
organization really relies on that's
00:14:24
absolutely true so I say that we all
00:14:27
have a sphere of control that we are
00:14:29
responsible for regardless of your title
00:14:31
or response or role that you play and
00:14:35
in that regard it can be
00:14:38
debilitatingly lonely if there are not a
00:14:42
network if there's not a network of
00:14:44
relationships that you have either
00:14:45
within or outside of the organization
00:14:46
with whom you can bounce ideas with whom
00:14:49
you can vent and be frustrated and it's
00:14:52
a safe space
00:14:54
how do you think then the Dynamics of
00:14:56
leadership have developed but also
00:14:58
potentially can change in the future
00:15:00
especially considering we're talking
00:15:02
more and more about Ai and the component
00:15:05
that AI can can play I mean I saw a
00:15:07
story the other day about how AI may
00:15:09
eventually be able to give people life
00:15:11
advice and that that worries me a little
00:15:13
bit but but it makes me think about how
00:15:16
far will AI kind of impact
00:15:19
you know the business and even
00:15:21
leadership to a degree
00:15:23
I mean honestly at this point no one
00:15:25
knows
00:15:26
we can produ we have the capability to
00:15:29
produce technology and artificial
00:15:32
intelligence to do just about everything
00:15:34
but at the end of the day we are still
00:15:37
human beings and there is no tool there
00:15:39
is no artificial intelligence that can
00:15:42
replace what comes from Human
00:15:45
interpersonal contact and interaction uh
00:15:49
so the interpersonal support the the
00:15:54
emotional support the feedback all of
00:15:57
those things that are really uh human
00:16:00
inspired I think will continue to
00:16:02
actually will become more and more
00:16:04
important and necessary and more valued
00:16:07
in the organization
00:16:09
um
00:16:10
but you know five years from now one
00:16:13
year from now is quick listings are
00:16:14
happening we're going to see much more
00:16:16
AI but I still believe that over time
00:16:20
the human only those things that humans
00:16:22
can do the the emotional side is going
00:16:26
to become more important let me finish
00:16:27
up with this when you look now at your
00:16:30
transition coming here to work and
00:16:33
having gone through this period of time
00:16:34
I've asked this of a lot of CEOs over
00:16:37
the course of the last couple of years
00:16:38
is did what occur and what you went
00:16:42
through as a leader tweak any of your
00:16:45
mindset about leading the company and
00:16:47
have you seen that in in what your
00:16:51
thought process is of what you want to
00:16:52
do to lead Worden moving forward have
00:16:54
you seen elements of that so what's
00:16:57
interesting in my case is I didn't know
00:16:59
Wharton before the pandemic right I came
00:17:01
once it was already in this state of
00:17:03
flux because of the external extenuating
00:17:06
circumstances
00:17:08
um so my leadership coming into Wharton
00:17:11
was informed by that reality so if I
00:17:15
were to say hypothetically would I be
00:17:16
doing some of the things I'm doing now
00:17:18
as a Wharton's leader had the pandemic
00:17:19
not happen maybe but there are probably
00:17:21
some things I'm doing now because the
00:17:24
pandemic happened right that would not
00:17:26
have been the case before so we are all
00:17:28
changed by having gone through the the
00:17:31
pandemic and even as a new leader coming
00:17:33
in when the pandemic was first happening
00:17:35
uh I am quite
00:17:38
confident that
00:17:40
my approach to leadership was informed
00:17:43
by starting this role in the midst of a
00:17:46
crisis great to have you in here today
00:17:47
thank you so much great to be here thank
00:17:49
you Dean Erica James the book by the way
00:17:51
is the prepared leader emerge from any
00:17:53
crisis more resilient than before the
00:17:56
book that she is a co-authored with Lynn
00:17:58
Perry Wooten thank you for listening to
00:18:00
the ripple effect we hope you found this
00:18:02
episode informative and engaging don't
00:18:04
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00:18:06
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00:18:08
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