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hello I'm Katherine Klein I'm the vice
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dean for social impact here at the
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Wharton School and I'm really delighted
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today to be interviewing Billy sure
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Billy sure is the executive chairman of
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no Kid Hungry and its parent
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organization share our strength Billy
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and his sister Debbie co-founded the
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organization thirty four years ago and
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in that time they have raised over six
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hundred million dollars to fight hunger
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and food insecurity and poverty in the
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United States so Billy thanks so much
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for joining me today thanks thanks for
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having me great to have you with us
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so my guess is that some of the people
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who are gonna be reading and listening
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to this interview don't spend a little a
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lot of time thinking about hunger
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poverty food insecurity in the United
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States they may vaguely have some sense
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of the nature of these problems but help
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us understand what is the problem of
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hunger in the United States what is the
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problem with food insecurity what's
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hunger what's food insecurity well
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hunger in the United States I'll start
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with hunger because hunger and food
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insecurity are actually pretty different
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but hunger in the United States affects
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various populations but the most
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vulnerable and the least responsible for
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the situation that they're in are
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children and we've got millions of kids
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in the country about one in six who
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suffer or struggle with hunger in some
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way or with food insecurity I guess the
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most important thing to understand about
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hunger in the u.s. is that it's a
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solvable problem you know and I would
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have to give you a single-factor
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statistic for you to know that kids here
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aren't hungry for the reasons the kids
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around the rest of the world are hungry
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it's not war or famine or drought kids
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are hungry here because not because we
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don't have food not because we don't
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have food programs like the food stamp
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program or school breakfast school lunch
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but because we haven't done a good job
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of connecting them so hunger is solvable
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food insecure and hunger is kind of a
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physiological issue are you getting
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three meals a day are you getting the
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proper nutrition are you getting what
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your body the calories and then the
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protein that your body needs to grow
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food insecurity is a measure that comes
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from surveying people and asking a whole
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series of questions that are more
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socio-economic in nature do you make
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enough money to feel like you can buy
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your family the best
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do you ever have anxiety that you're not
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going to be able to feed your children
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as well as you'd like to so there are a
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lot of families and children and food
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insecure who live in food insecurity but
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who may not actually be experienced
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hunger they're both important but in a
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triage sense you want to make sure that
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kids at a minimum are not hungry that
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they're not missing meals and having all
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the the negative effects that come with
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that right right and I suppose the
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question may be obvious we answer may be
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obvious but why focus on kids why not
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focus on families communities well for a
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couple reasons so when sheriff's trains
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started as you mentioned 34 years ago we
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were focusing on hunger and Ethiopia we
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were focusing on hunger all across the
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United States seniors families and one
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of the things that we thought about was
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how do we actually not just alleviate
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the problem or ameliorate it behind we
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actually solve it or is there some piece
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of what we're doing that we could solve
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there's a writer named Jonathan Kozol
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who says that you should pick battles
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that are big enough to matter but small
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enough to win and I love that construct
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because there's so many things that all
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of us care about and you know when you
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think about what's big enough to matter
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if it's small enough to win maybe we
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can't solve Syria or the Middle East or
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climate change or organizations can but
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when it comes to kids who are in this
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country who are hungry that is big
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enough to matter but small enough to win
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and it's solvable and as I as I
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mentioned a moment ago kids are the most
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vulnerable the consequences of being
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hungry when you're a child
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developmentally can last you the rest of
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your life and they're the least
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responsible for the situation they're in
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they're just they're kind of born into
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it so we thought that that was the a
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winnable issue and we've actually made
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tremendous progress against it if you
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ask me this question five or six or
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seven years from now I'm pretty sure
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we'll say that we've still got poverty
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we still got food insecurity and we
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still got hunger but we don't have
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hungry kids in the United States great
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so I want to explore that more with you
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but but first you've written and talked
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about how you made a significant shift
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and share our strength about ten years
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ago so talk with us about what made you
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make an organizational pivot what was
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that pivot how did
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no it was time to make one you know
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what's right there yeah well shower
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strength was a grant maker to probably
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three hundred to four hundred other
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nonprofits around the country well you
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all were raising money and passing it
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then yeah and I'd say first for the
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first twenty years of our existence what
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most people knew about us if they knew
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anything was that we had this very
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entrepreneurial way of generating
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revenues we didn't have any government
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money or foundation money or high donor
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program or direct mail we basically made
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money we organized chefs and restaurant
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tours to do events for us corporate
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marketing partnerships cause related
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marketing we did even today we have
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contracts with dozens of corporate
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partners that fund our organization it
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puts us in the position of not competing
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with brother and sister organizations
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and not having any strings attached to
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the dollar so we can spend them as
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strategically as we wish so we were
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raising that money bringing new money
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into the into the field granting it out
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it was satisfying to almost everybody
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except for a handful of us at the center
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of the organization who were asking
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ourselves you know in effect is the
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glass half empty or half full are we
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moving the needle are we solving a
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problem or we're just putting a bandaid
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on it and so we realized that we really
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needed to put kind of a stake in the
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ground we need it in this Jonathan Kozol
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sense of what's big enough to matter but
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small enough to win could we pick an
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area and hold ourselves accountable to
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actually solving it and again in that
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case it felt like childhood hunger would
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be the the place to do that it required
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a big culture shift on the part of the
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organization all of a sudden we weren't
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just the good guys giving out money to
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others we were accountable to achieving
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a very specific outcome some people felt
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that pressure and it's it's a very
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different feeling so it's interesting
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because one way I could interpret what
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you're saying is you made a decision to
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focus your efforts but it sounds like
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it's and I think many organizations do
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that though or you know we're too broad
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where our messaging is too unfocused we
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need to focus sounds like you're saying
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this was a change that was yes about
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focusing but it was more than that yeah
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I I think that's a really interesting
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distinction you're making because it was
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about focusing and accountability and
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the accountability piece was so
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important
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for us in one sense it's kind of absurd
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that one little nonprofit organization
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would say we're accountable for ending
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childhood hunger we're just one of many
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organizations the government plays a
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much bigger role than we do but one of
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the things that we observed in the space
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that we were working in is there was a
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real dynamic of almost everybody
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pointing the finger at somebody else
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so advocates in Washington would get
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legislation passed and then the
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governor's wouldn't implement it the way
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they should or the local organizations
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wouldn't everybody else was saying I did
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my job but somebody else's fault and so
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we thought in it just kind of the
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classic the buck stops here since
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somebody's got to raise their hand and
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say we'll be responsible for getting
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this done until it's done so as I say in
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one sense a little bit audacious but in
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the other sense it gave our stakeholders
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a real palpable sense of we can judge
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where these guys are against their goal
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in a world where you don't know if
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you're getting a better return on
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investment by giving money to Habitat
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for Humanity or Teach for America or
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City Year or Share Our Strength here's
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at least an organization that's saying
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we welcome you we invite you to judge us
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here's here's our role and here's how
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far we are from it and some years we
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came closer and some year so we didn't
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come as close as we said we would and
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and this has energized your your donors
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your partner's I gather I think so I
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think in a very big way it had a really
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catalytic impact on them again just kind
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of the confidence that we would succeed
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and the notion that this is not
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something we're going to be asking them
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to support forever there is an endpoint
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there's a I think the the consulting
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firm Bridgespan calls it an arrival
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point you know there is an arrival point
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that you'll achieve and you'll know that
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you can then go on and climb the next
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higher Hill right so with the no Kid
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Hungry campaign really capturing that
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with those those three words no Kid
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Hungry you shifted the focus and said
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we're gonna end childhood hunger how
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what is what share our strengths what is
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the no Kid Hungry campaign do to end
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hunger so we defined ending hunger as
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making sure kids had three meals a day
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usually at least
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whether parents are poor or food
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insecure or what-have-you they're
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probably able to afford at least one
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meal for their kids they may not be able
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to afford three but low-income kids in
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this country get a free or
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reduced-priced school lunch that's a
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program that was set up in 1946 when
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generals and admirals returned from
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World War two and they said to Congress
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our recruits by the end of the year
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we're not strong enough and there they
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weren't fit enough so we need to start
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feeding kids in school better then they
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added the school breakfast program in
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1964 so we've got today 22 million kids
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in the country who qualify for free or
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reduced-price lunch
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all 22 million are eligible for
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breakfast as well but when we looked at
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this eight years ago only nine million
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of the 22 million we're getting it so
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less than 50% but the crazy thing
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Catherine is that it's bought and paid
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for for all 22 millions so try to think
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about another issue that we work on in
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this country where there's a pot of
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money literally billions of dollars
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sitting in Washington that can only be
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used for this and yet in less than half
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of them are being used so that was the
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opportunity to start enrolling kids and
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we've done that with breakfast and we've
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done it with summer meals and other
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programs that you're not a government
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agency so you're not a government agency
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saying hey school district put in this
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program or hey you know whatever the
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place is to deliver those kids breakfast
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so what do you actually do so what we're
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doing is we're going into school
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districts and we're saying there's this
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program available if you want to
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participate in it there may be some
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things you need in terms of startup cost
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that we will pay you might need
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insulated carts on wheels you might need
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to redo your cafeteria you might need to
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hire more cafeteria workers but we will
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pay for that if you do what you need to
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do to enroll in the federal government
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school breakfast program the meals are
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100% federally reimbursed so you can go
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to any governor in the country and say
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governor did you realize that you've
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left 150 million dollars or whatever the
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number is in Washington and no matter
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how conservatory how liberal they are
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they all say what do I have to do to get
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it it's so interesting that's so
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interesting so you made this shift in
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around 2010 you said you're making good
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progress on the met
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you count so tell us about that progress
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well we've added about 3.2 million kids
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to the school breakfast program of the
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22 million kids who get lunch not all 22
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million of them should get breakfast
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because some will have breakfast at home
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with mom and dad or grandparents or
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whatever and that's great but the right
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number is probably about 15 or 16
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million and today we're at about 12 and
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1/2 closer to 213 so adding 3 million
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kids to school breakfast program over
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just five or six years has been a really
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an enormous task and we did it in one
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very simple way so I described this
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program started you know 50 years ago
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it's always run the same way forever
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with almost no changes and somebody said
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what if we moved breakfast from the
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cafeteria where kids have to get there
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early and many of them can't because the
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bus driver scheduled their mom and dad
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scheduled or what have you and then
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there's the stigma attached to being the
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kids who get to school early what if we
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move breakfast from the cafeteria to the
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first 10 minutes of first period every
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way so when you propose that two things
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happen one is everybody you possibly
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think oh I can think of objects to that
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idea yeah in the classroom etcetera
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etcetera but the other thing happens is
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participation rates go to almost 95
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percent and after sometimes as short as
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a week the teachers embrace it and they
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say oh now I see why this is a good
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thing of the 3.2 million kids that we've
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added which is across thousands of
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schools nobody's ever gone back to the
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old way nobody's ever said I wish we
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were doing in the cafeteria again it's
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just it just works too well but it's
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changed I mean changes you know is
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uncomfortable for people right so having
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made this this this shift and pursue
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this change in strategy for 10 years
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what's the advice that you would give to
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other organizations whether it's a
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for-profit or a nonprofit that may be
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thinking you know we're not doing as
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well as we could we're not having the
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impact whether it's social impact
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whether it's financial performance we're
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not where we should be we need to focus
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hold ourselves accountable know I'd say
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there's three or four things that apply
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doubt I think many efforts not just our
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work in hunger and food security one is
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what I put under the umbrella of kind of
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go big or go home to have a big goal
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you know put a stake in the ground stand
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behind it have a goal that's you know
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big enough to inspire people the second
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is to be willing to build your own
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capacity and to make the assertion that
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building your capacity will lead to
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impact in the nonprofit world as you
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know everybody wants to know what your
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overhead costs are and how much you
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paying salaries and they want you to put
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as much money out into the community as
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you possibly can and that's great and
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for the most noble of reasons but if you
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don't have professional staff if you
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don't train them well if you don't
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retain them then you're really wasting
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donors money so building your own
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capacity is key this accountability
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issue which we both mentioned I think is
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also you know a very important one and
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then finally I'd say what we came too
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late later than we should have was this
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notion that public policy has to play a
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very important role then not there are
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very few problems that nonprofits can
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solve on their own there are things they
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can do in terms of innovating and taking
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risks but when it comes to scaling up a
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good idea that they've created or that
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they've advanced you're gonna need
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public support and do you think that
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there are other sectors other problems
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where there is you know as you put a
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money left on the table where the public
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where the public policy exists but isn't
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being implemented you know as
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effectively as it could and should be
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well I think yeah I think there are a
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lot of places where the advocates work
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so hard to get a policy to become law
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that once it does they're on to the next
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thing and that nobody really looks back
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so I had this interesting conversation
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with Marian Wright Edelman from the
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Children's Defense Fund who is this
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iconic leader you know in this space and
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we were talking about you know what
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battles we should be fighting and we're
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going around the table and she said well
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I think we should pay attention to what
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she our strength is doing because we won
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these we fought and won these battles 40
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years ago so and before we go fight the
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next ones let's make sure that what we
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won actually happens and comes to pass
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there's a little bit of this in the
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healthcare and the child health space in
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particular there states that don't fully
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utilize the child health insurance
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program but there's lots of you know in
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terms of just performance and
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executional issues separate from money
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there's a lot of improvement that
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be made across the board and terminate
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different pollinators yeah right it
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makes sense and I think of all the
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benefits that they do exist but they're
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difficult for people to access
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interesting so one of the big part of
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your model has been this partnering with
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corporations so I'd love to hear more
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about you know what corporations give
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you what these businesses are giving you
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what they get from it and then I'd like
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to kind of talk more expansively about
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the role of business in fighting hunger
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and food insecurity well we've thought
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from the beginning that there's a really
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big role for the business community and
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that there's a role for nonprofits to
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think about not just redistributing
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wealth but actually creating wealth you
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don't think of nonprofits being in the
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business of creating wealth of
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generating revenues but there's no
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reason they shouldn't I have a friend
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who always says that nonprofits should
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be a tax status not your management
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philosophy right you you want to make
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money and use it for the the things that
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you do and so when we had this notion
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early on and we part of it we understood
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part of it we stumbled into frankly but
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we as we started to organize chefs and
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restaurant tourists to get involved in
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the hunger issue since they made their
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livelihoods from food we thought they
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would feel connected to the issue of
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hunger as we started to do that
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companies that market it into the chef
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and restaurant industry that had
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something to sell them we're coming to
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us saying you're you're a more efficient
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marketer than we are you've got 500 of
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the chef's that we want to be carrying
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our product how about instead of us
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going up 500 of them one at a time we
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strike up a partnership with share our
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strength so Citibank is a good example
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they want chefs and restaurant ORS to
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use a Visa card instead of an American
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Express card and they want to go into
00:17:13
the restaurant and have a conversation a
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little bit different than here's the
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point spread on our cars and the fees
00:17:21
they want to go in and say hey you and I
00:17:24
are we're both partners with share our
00:17:25
strengths why don't we do this like why
00:17:27
don't we have a partnership together
00:17:29
williams-sonoma Fiji water lily espresso
00:17:34
lots of companies have realized that
00:17:36
there are some benefits of doing that
00:17:38
and then I think there's also the
00:17:41
important issue of just because they're
00:17:43
human
00:17:43
things like you and me they want to be
00:17:45
doing something meaningful they want to
00:17:47
be having an impact and some of them get
00:17:49
involved for kind of marketing reasons
00:17:50
but then stay involved because they find
00:17:52
it really fulfilling to be able to offer
00:17:54
their employees this opportunity to to
00:17:56
have a big difference and so we often
00:17:59
hear about engagement and social impact
00:18:01
engagement by corporations for all those
00:18:02
reasons right you know through
00:18:04
philanthropy for marketing for
00:18:07
engagement for reputation and even a
00:18:10
real belief and the social issues is
00:18:13
there you know as you think about the
00:18:15
next 10 years you've been quite
00:18:17
visionary about this is there you know
00:18:19
as this conversation changes about the
00:18:20
role of business and this notion that
00:18:22
businesses should pay more attention to
00:18:25
social issues business can and should
00:18:27
have a social impact and it should be
00:18:28
part of the social well the the the
00:18:31
mission of the organization and the
00:18:33
business model so not necessarily
00:18:34
philanthropy or marketing but this is
00:18:36
actually core to our business you have
00:18:37
thoughts on that and in this space yeah
00:18:40
I think well I think it's related to
00:18:42
what's going on in social media and the
00:18:44
pressures that creates on business so
00:18:45
you and I are having this conversation
00:18:46
on the day that dicks the sporting goods
00:18:49
store announced that they're no longer
00:18:50
going to stock the ar-15 right so
00:18:54
there's been this you know terrible
00:18:55
incident in in parkland Florida and gun
00:18:59
safety is now risen to the top and we've
00:19:02
seen just in the last 10 days dozens of
00:19:04
companies start to change their
00:19:06
relationship with the National Rifle
00:19:08
Association because they believe it's
00:19:10
important for their business it's
00:19:12
probably something that they've you know
00:19:14
wanted to do
00:19:16
perhaps anyhow but maybe didn't have the
00:19:18
courage or didn't realize it aligned
00:19:20
with business reasons so yeah I think I
00:19:22
think business leaders are going to play
00:19:23
a larger and larger role and certainly
00:19:25
in our case if we've got the CEO of a of
00:19:29
a company that can write a letter to the
00:19:32
governor the CEO of Deloitte did a press
00:19:35
conference with us in which he said this
00:19:38
was at the time a man named Joe
00:19:40
Echevarria s' and he said you know we
00:19:44
hire 30,000 young people a year so we've
00:19:47
got to make sure that we've got a pool
00:19:48
of young people who are healthy and fit
00:19:50
and fed and do well in school and that's
00:19:53
the reason we're so supportive of the
00:19:54
school breakfast work so you have
00:19:57
that all of a sudden the lens shifts
00:19:58
from kind of this anti-poverty advert me
00:20:01
to this very respected business leaders
00:20:03
saying this is good for the economy so
00:20:05
yeah I think business will play more of
00:20:06
a role right right it's interesting
00:20:08
interesting challenges for CEOs they
00:20:10
start to have this larger and a public
00:20:12
role so great well it's and if if
00:20:16
somebody wants to learn more about food
00:20:19
insecurity hunger or volunteer make a
00:20:21
difference you know resources for people
00:20:24
to pursue yeah we've got a lot of them
00:20:26
so our our best link to our website is
00:20:29
no Kid Hungry org but we've also got
00:20:32
there a Center for best practices that
00:20:34
talks about all of the ways that
00:20:36
communities around the country are
00:20:37
working on these issues of hunger and
00:20:39
food insecurity and poverty we've got a
00:20:42
list of all the events that people can
00:20:44
volunteer at or donate to but yet no Kid
00:20:47
Hungry or gets the place to go perfect
00:20:49
great well Billy sure thanks so much for
00:20:51
talking with me great to greta's hear
00:20:53
all about your continuing good work at
00:20:55
Share Our Strength thanks for more
00:21:00
insight from knowledge at Wharton please
00:21:02
visit knowledge Wharton UPenn edu
00:21:08
[Music]
00:21:13
you
