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today we're talking with Wharton
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professor drew carton about his new
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research titled I'm not mopping the
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floors I'm putting a man on the moon how
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NASA leaders enhanced the meaningfulness
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of work by changing the meaning of work
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thanks for joining us drew thanks for
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having me so what led you to study
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meaningfulness of work so I had a
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long-standing interest in a problem
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related to how leaders tend to
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communicate about the organization's
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ultimate goals it's been well subscribed
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at this point that that one of the most
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inexpensive and effective ways that
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leaders can motivate employees is by
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articulating a compelling depiction of
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where the organization's ultimately
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trying to go yet the empirical evidence
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on that particular tactic is actually
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surprisingly mixed on some occasions
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it's worked quite well it's yielded the
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expected effects it's motivated
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employees led them to transcendent
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achievements that they wouldn't
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otherwise be able to attain but in other
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contexts it hasn't had that intended
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effect and in fact sometimes it's
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actually backfired because employees
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oftentimes will hear lofty rhetoric
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that's used by leaders and will think to
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themselves that you know the work I'm
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doing right now doesn't actually seem to
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be very aligned or connected to these
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grant conquests that you are reporting
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it to serve and so actually ends up
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leading to a form of cynicism and
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pessimism and actually can end up
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demotivating them so so I became
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interested in and what was going on with
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that the this this tactic that was
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rhetorical tactic that we would expect
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to work effectively yet wasn't working
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effectively at least as consistently as
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we would so you think so
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I started to probe the literature in
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this area a bit more and it dawned on me
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that it could relate to a fairly
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interesting paradox that ties to
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cognitive psychology or so cognitive
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psychological findings specifically if
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you think about the type of work that
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you're doing every day most people do
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every day it tends to be fairly
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circumscribed and clearly defined
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concrete small and scale and usually is
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is very time constraint and time
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delimited so you might have something to
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do by 5:00 p.m. or by
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11 p.m. a deadline or something by the
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end of the week and it also tends to be
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it also tends to be done in small groups
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or people working alone yet the types of
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purposes the types of organizational
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missions that people find most inspiring
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tend to be quite grand in scale so they
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tend to be timeless or if not send a set
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on an indefinite time scale it tend to
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be quite abstract in the sense that they
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they focus on the essential central
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merits of what the organization is
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trying to achieve rather than any
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specific concrete situation that an
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employee might find him or herself in so
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for example one company has has the
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vision of becoming a world's most
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customer centric company another company
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health care company has a vision of of
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spreading care compassion and well-being
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across the world so these these these
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visions are very grand in scale and
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they're they're lofty and they're
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timeless but they don't have a clear
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connection to the type of work that I do
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every day and so I think what what
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really struck me was this paradox that
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as as a purpose and as a mission becomes
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inherently in and of itself more
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meaningful it actually starts to feel
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more disconnected from the kind of work
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that I do every day as an employee in a
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given organization and so that's when I
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decided to delve into this case at NASA
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which was a period of time where there
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were many reports of employees who said
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that that that period in their lives was
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included were involved more meaningful
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work than I had ever experienced before
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and whatever experience again regardless
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of what they were doing yeah it's
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interesting because even even people who
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were quite far removed from the the you
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know the the famous goal of landing a
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man on the moon people who are far
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removed from that for example electrical
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engineers and then of course this very
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famous legend that that is in the title
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of the paper of a custodian mopping the
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floors even they felt reported feeling
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an incredible connection to this
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ultimate goal and would often actually
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define their work everyday in terms of
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that ultimate goal rather than talking
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about unfixing electrical wiring or
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I'm stitching spacesuits or I'm mopping
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the floors they would actually identify
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their work as I'm putting a man on the
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moon and so it was it was a strikingly
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unique period of time where many people
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is a 400,000 person organization many
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people across the entire organization
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had these kinds of perceptions and it
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was also a period where there was a lot
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of very rich information that was
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available in terms of leader
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communication tactics and and then how
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employees were experiencing their work a
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lot of internal memos and documents that
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allowed me to dive into to get a really
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rich sense of what was going on at that
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point in time so it's an inductive study
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yeah so it was an inductive study in the
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sense that most most research that we do
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here at Wharton it and that I do
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involves crafting a set of hypotheses
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and then collecting data to test them
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this was diving into a rich very
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detailed analysis of a single case and
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then and then trying to induce or get a
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sense of what some key relationships are
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between how leaders communicate about
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the organization's ultimate purpose and
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how employees perceived their work it's
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a little bit of a little bit of a
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departure from the norm at least from
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type of research that's that's done
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around here but it allows you to get a
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rich sense of the the process and how
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employees perceptions shift across time
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so when you're dough into all this
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information what did you find so I'd say
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the core takeaway that I found most
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striking and unites a lot of the core
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findings is that and this is a also a
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bit of a departure from conventional
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wisdom so the conventional wisdom around
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what how leaders should orient
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themselves when communicating about the
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organization's ultimate goals is that
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they should be visionaries so they
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should paint a grand picture of what it
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is that we're all trying to achieve this
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this destination that we're all trying
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to strive to reach and what I found is
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that's absolutely essential it's
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critical that leaders do to picked a
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compelling picture of where ultimately
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we want to go but just as important and
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also more time-consuming and requiring
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even more investment is that they
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communicate about how each employee and
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the organization can get a sense of how
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their work connects
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organization's mission or vision in that
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connection that process of connection
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building took more steps and was more
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time-intensive and more complex than the
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process of just selling somebody about
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the importance and the and the beauty of
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this ultimate goal that we're trying to
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achieve together in some senses that was
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the easy part the hard part is helping
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people see a connection between their
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work and the organization's mission so
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what surprised you the most when you dug
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into all of this yeah I think there were
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a few surprises and they mostly revolved
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around the specific communication
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tactics that leaders used to help
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employees see that connection one that I
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found quite remarkable was was you know
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it's it's pretty well known at this
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point that that articulating a common
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goal or a common purpose has powerful
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implications especially for groups
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collectives and organizations because it
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galvanizes collective energy it gives
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people a sense of a rallying point a
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common cause that they can all rally
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around that the coalesce is their energy
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and effort and in some senses can build
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what are called social contagion effects
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where people one person's excitement
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spreads to another person and also is a
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boon for coordination because it gives
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us a sense of what we're trying to
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achieve as an organization but what I
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found it was also interesting was
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Kennedy's ability to articulate a common
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purpose was highly useful for
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individuals working alone because it
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allowed them to get a better sense of
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how their work connected to the
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organization's ultimate aims and the
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reason is again drawing from cognitive
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psychology is actually fairly
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straightforward when you think about it
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you know the kind of work that we're
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doing every day a lot of times we might
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look down the hall at what our
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colleagues are doing or maybe working
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with somebody across the country on the
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same project and what we'll often do is
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we'll look to see what other people are
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doing and we'll piece together what
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they're doing visa vie what I'm doing
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and when it turns out that that without
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exception every time I look to what my
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coworkers doing
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I recognize that they're channeling
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their effort toward the same end goal
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that I am then it leads this process of
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mental dissemble II and assembly where I
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get a sense that there's this broader
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pause
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and we're all working on a critical
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piece of that puzzle so I'm working on a
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small piece but an irreplaceable and
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essential piece of that puzzle and I can
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see how it fits in within this broader
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organizational system and because of
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that I can see how my work connects to
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the organization's aims if you have just
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two or more purposes even if you just
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have two organizational purposes this
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starts to break down because oftentimes
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we'll look to what our coworkers are
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doing our colleagues are doing and we
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won't do that process of disentangling
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what we're doing relative to them and
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then and then putting it back together
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seeing this this puzzle in this puzzle
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metaphor actually was used by some NASA
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employees to as an illustration of how
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they made sense of their work so the
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surprise here is that articulating a
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common goal was not just effective for a
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galvanizing collective energy but also
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for helping individuals see how they
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were connected to the organization's
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Ames and Kennedy did this by initially
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NASA had three overarching missions to
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to establish superior technology in
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space
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to attest to establish preeminence in
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space relative to the Soviet Union and
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to advance science by exploring a solar
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system and he decided on his own once he
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became president NASA was founded in
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1958 but he came present in the early
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60s he decided on his own to restrict
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all of NASA's attention just to that
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third ultimate aspiration of advancing
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science by exploring the solar system
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and then of course we all know what he
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did after that where he made an
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announcement to Congress in one of the
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most famous speeches to date in which he
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he talked about how we're gonna actually
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refocus our energy on a specific
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incarnation of that broader goal which
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is to land a man on the moon before the
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decade is out and return him safely to
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earth so if you had to distill this down
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just a list of or some key takeaways for
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leaders what would you say
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sure so well one is the as I just
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mentioned the criticality of
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articulating a common goal not just to
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galvanize collective energy but also to
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help people build a connection between
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their work in the organization's highest
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names another critical piece of the
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puzzle again always keeping in mind the
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the importance of not only selling a
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grand vision but helping people see a
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connection between their work in that
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vision
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the usage of sub-goals so Kennedy had a
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very unique way of using sub-goals that
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was pretty surprising so usually
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sub-goals are thought of as ways to
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break down a broader goal that could be
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daunting or intimidating and on a scale
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that is not it's not tractable to try to
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pursue this goal in and of itself it's
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it's to break that goal down into
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smaller bite-sized pieces what Karl
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Weick would call small wins and to focus
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on each increment one at a time in
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piecemeal fashion and what Kennedy did
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is he actually took a completely
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different approach rather than thinking
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about having sub goals be a way to
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divert your attention away from this
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broader goal just focus on one bit at a
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time
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he thought of sub goals as a way to
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actually let people focus even more of
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their attention and effort on the
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ultimate goal in this case the the goal
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of landing on the moon and he did this
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by by appending conventional wisdom at
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that time and even to date most people
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tend to set and tend to think of sub
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goals as better as they increase in
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numbers so a greater number of sub goals
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is good because it allows us to monitor
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progress more effectively it makes the
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the problems that were tackling more
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manageable Kennedy took the opposite
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approach he articulated at first just
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three sub goals to put a person into
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orbit to perform rendezvous and docking
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missions in space and then to ultimately
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reach lunar orbit prior to landing on
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the moon and these these sub goals ended
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up being the objectives of the three
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space programs first the Gemini program
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in the early 60s then the sorry the
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mercury program in the early 60s then
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the Gemini program in the mid-60s then
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the Apollo program in the late 60s and
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what happened was employees would they
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saw a plausible path to the goal to the
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goal of landing on a moon at first they
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thought it was impossible even Neil
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Armstrong the first person to walk on
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the moon in the early 60s said that he
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thought this was an impossible goal and
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they would never achieve it so it helped
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them realize or at least think that the
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goal was plausibly achievable but it was
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simple enough of a pathway that they
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didn't get completely diverted away from
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the goal landing on the moon and so it
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remained in the forefront of their minds
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and it retained its motivational power
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people didn't lose sight of what they
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were ultimately trying to achieve and so
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they continued to be
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invigorated by it and so this is an
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example of how to think about a
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conventional idea setting sub goals we
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all do it we do at work we do it
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oftentimes in our own lives for example
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let's say I'm trying to run a marathon
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I'm going to set a series of incremental
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goals number of miles I'll run each week
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and so we all make use of sub goals but
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this is a very different way of thinking
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about the uses of sub goals it's to pave
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the path to focus our attention on the
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end goal rather than to divert our
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attention away from it great it seems
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like a vast area to study are you
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working on anything that's related to
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this yeah so right now I have a
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concurrent line of research that that
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speaks to a a an exercise that Kennedy
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engaged in that was also quite effective
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which is translating the the abstract
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mission of advancing science by
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exploring the solar system to this
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concrete goal this time delimited goal
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of landing a man on the moon before the
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decade is out that that kind of twist
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where leaders focus on redirect their
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attention and redirect everyone's
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attention from an abstract overarching
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mission to a more concrete instantiation
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of the mission is extraordinarily
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difficult in my research I found that
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that vast majority of leaders actually
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don't do that they tend to communicate
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abstractly and this was very useful
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because what it does is it is it makes
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people feel as if the goal that they're
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striving to achieve is closer it's more
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proximal it literally is it's it's more
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proximal in time because it's going to
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elapse at some point and it's also in
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this case of the moon it was a tangible
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palpable goal it's a concrete goal you
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walk outside of your door at night and
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look in the night sky and see the moon
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and as deke Slayton said you know it was
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hard not to stay motivated when every
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time you looked up in the sky you had a
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reminder of what it is that you're
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striving to achieve so so this kind of
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transformation of an abstract principle
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into a concrete manifestation in reality
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is extraordinarily difficult and so I
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have a line of research that that can
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help identify a what we call a nudge
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which is just a way of tweaking the way
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that we tend to think about the goals
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that were articulating and so that we
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can think about a slightly too
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anyway so that our our first instinct is
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to articulate a concrete organizational
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objective that we can all rally around
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rather than an abstract general
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principle one caveat though and this was
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something else that Kennedy did
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remarkably well is that he he focused
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everybody's attention on a concrete goal
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but it was a concrete goal that that
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retained a sense of gravity and
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challenge and ambition that could then
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allow people to cast it as a symbol that
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embodied the organization's ultimate
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grand abstract ideals and so in this
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sense and people didn't think that they
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were just striving to land on the moon
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they also felt like just just by landing
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on the moon that they actually were were
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realizing these abstract ideals and
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Kennedy very carefully crafted his
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rhetoric to make people feel this way so
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he would he would actually talk about
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abstract principles as if they existed
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in the physical world so for example he
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would say he would say we want to go to
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the moon because knowledge and peace are
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there and if you think about the literal
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phrasing of it's pretty fascinating
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knowledge and peace are on the moon it's
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something that of course is impossible
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an abstract idea existing in a physical
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location but what it did when he and
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other NASA leaders continually
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reinforced the the idea that these two
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concepts were inextricably linked the
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physical and the abstract it allowed
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them to cast the the moon as a symbol of
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what they were trying to achieve in the
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abstract sense rather than just an
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impressive physical feat of Engineering
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and so in think about one of the most
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famous one-liners of all time Neil
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Armstrong talking about you know it's
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just not just one small step for a man
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it's one giant leap for mankind
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right there he's actually connecting one
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very in some senses trivial human action
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of just taking one step to this broader
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idea of advancing science one giant leap
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for mankind so so that's the twist is is
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getting leaders to to articulate more
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concrete objectives yet without those
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objectives living the losing the
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gravitas that allows them to be Rican
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Street gang the organization's ultimate
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aspiration
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great well thanks so much for joining us
00:17:48
today yeah thanks so much for having me
00:17:49
thank you
00:18:06
you
00:18:08
[Music]
