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The topic of smartphones in schools has
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become an important one in the last
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couple of years. School districts are
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trying to set proper policy that has a
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positive impact on students and their
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learning. The problem is that many in
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education feel that cell phones hinder
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that process. Pleasure to be joined
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right now by Angela Duckworth who's a
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professor of operations, information,
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and decisions here at the Wharton
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School. She is part of new research
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coming out about this topic specifically
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and what we're seeing in our schools at
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the moment. Angela, great to talk to you
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again. How are you?
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>> Thank you for having me. I'm good.
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>> It's interesting you and I were talking
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about this before we started this
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interview. This has obviously become a
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very important topic in and around the
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school right now. I think not only is
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school cell phone policy an urgent
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topic, it may be one of the last
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bipartisan topics there is in the
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universe. So whether you are red or
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blue, whether you are pro- teacher union
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or pro-charter school, like we have not
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found the educator who doesn't care
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about this issue and who doesn't feel
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like we should be doing more than we're
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doing right now,
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>> right? And and so obviously the the the
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component of learning is a big one here,
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but as you just alluded to, there's an
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element of this is is how the teachers
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are dealing with this and being able to
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try and work through their normal
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process during a day.
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>> You know, the policy the default policy
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for um you know, several years just I'm
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talking about nationwide, right? Just
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sort of like what are K12 schools doing
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about phones? Um, in America, you know,
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for a long time, the default is that
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every teacher reigns supreme over their
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classroom and that includes phones. So,
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if you are a teacher who says, "I don't
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care." And you can have your phones on
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your person, great, that's your
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classroom. But then when the students go
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to the next period, they might have a
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teacher who does care and then you have
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to put your phones in a cubby and and so
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forth. And that is actually how much of
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American education works, right? uh but
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in the case of phones I think what we
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have is what some scientists call
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collective action trap um that is where
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individual decision-m individual
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willpower is no match for the problem
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and I think what teachers have been
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saying in our survey data which I know
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we're here to talk about is that they
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need help just legislate cell phone
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policy as a teacher on their own
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separate from what the school is doing
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as a
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Okay. So, let's dig into the research
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because this is part of a larger
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research project that you're on is
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ongoing right now. This first part was a
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survey about some of these policies.
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>> So, there is a national survey that is
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up and running right now. We we we're
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like a convenience store, you know, 247.
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We never close. And it lives at
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www.phonesinfocus.org.
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and any school teacher in the United
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States, we're looking for public school
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teachers, K12, can can log on and in a
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confidential way share in a matter of
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minutes what the policy is at their
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school and from their perspective, you
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know, how's it going. We're really
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interested in looking for changes in
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policy that predict changes in outcome.
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So on the same survey, you're also asked
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you whether your policy at your school
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has changed in recent years, and if so,
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how. And what we're seeing in the 20,000
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plus responses that we've already
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received from public school educators
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across all 50 states is an important
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pattern, which is that the stricter the
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policy, the happier the teacher. And
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again, in this cross-sectional snapshot,
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the stricter the policy, the less
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distraction there is for students uh in
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in terms of their academic work.
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>> One of the things you brought up to me
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beforehand, and it's an interesting
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component of it when you're thinking
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about these rules, the proximity of
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where a student can hold their phone is
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also a factor in this as well. You know,
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one way to appreciate the importance of
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physical distance on psychological
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distance and there really is a a kind of
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a law in psychology that you know more
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physical distance creates more
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psychological distance from from
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temptation. One way we can appreciate
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this is to consider our own relationship
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with our phone. I don't know any adults
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who have a completely unconlicted, you
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know, um I' I've got this um
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relationship with their own phones. This
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is not a teenager problem. I think it's
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not just a kid problem. And if I have my
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phone, you know, one ft away, one foot
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away, like that's a different level of
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temptation than if I, for example, have
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my phone in another room or if you
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really want to get me off my phone. If
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you put my phone upstairs and I have to
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walk up eight stairs to get it, of
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course, it's trivial, right? Like, well,
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how hard could that be?
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>> But but yeah, that makes a huge
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difference. And that may be why we're
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finding that schools, for example, who
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require their students to keep their
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phones in their hallway lockers, which
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are not, you know, 1 ft away from them
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when they're in class. They're typically
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more than 30 feet away from them. And in
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fact, they can be on a different floor.
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You know, those schools perform
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extremely well in the outcome data that
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we are collecting. And one of the other
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components of the policy angle on this
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is uh not just how from potential
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classroom to classroom that different
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teachers have different thoughts about
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cell phone policy but within the school
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structure itself K through 12 that you
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may come up with one policy in grade
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school, one policy in middle school and
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another one in high school.
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>> We find a pattern again across the
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United States that actually I I can't
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speak for the whole team. It surprised
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me. So when you think about cell phones,
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you typically think about teenagers and
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you think about social media again, you
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think about teenagers. And when you
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worry, you worry about teenagers. But
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we're finding that the schools that
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serve teenagers, which are the high
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schools, right? That's grade 9 through
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12, 14 to 18 years old, those schools
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paradoxically have the the least strict
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rules. So perhaps arguably just when
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students need the most support in
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regulating their attention, their
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impulses to stay focused on academic
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work, which in prior research shows
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teenagers recognize that academic work
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is good for their long-term future. This
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is true across the board across socio
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economic status. A students, F students,
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everybody knows that school is good for
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them. And so it is in the teen years
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perhaps when students need the most
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support and when temptations are
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strongest that we give them the least
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support in terms of school cell phone
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policies. Only one in four schools in
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our sample at the high school level has
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a bellto bell policy meaning you can't
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use it from the first bell of school to
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the you know last bell of school. So all
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day all away that's only one in four
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high schools. But when you look at the
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younger grades it's flipped. So when you
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look K8, that's more like three out of
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four schools in our sample.
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>> But still the component of mental health
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is part of this discussion as well
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because this is going back to just
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screen time in general with our kids.
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>> Yeah. The the the fact that I want to,
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you know, begin with and is just to say
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it is a fact that there is a mental
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health crisis among youth. Sometimes I'm
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asked like is it just an artifact of the
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data? You know, is there something in
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report? I'm like no. kids today really
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are struggling. They're struggling with
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anxiety. They're struggling with
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loneliness. Uh and they're studying
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they're struggling with the the symptoms
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of depression relative to other
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generations of kids, you know, in in
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years past. So, so the connection
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between teen mental health and screens
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is a big topic that we're not going to
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have uh time to discuss entirely today,
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but I will tell you this now that we
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have thousands and thousands of
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educators and hopefully um hopefully and
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by the way, if you're listening to this
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and you know anybody who's a school
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teacher, please send them to our phones
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and focus.org survey. But now that we
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have some responses, we can find these
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schools and talk to them. And I will
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tell you what the principles and the
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teachers are telling us. They say that
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yeah, test scores, you know, are
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influenced by by uh cell phone policies.
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So are the number of books checked out
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of the library going up in schools that
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have uh lower or I should say more
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restrictive policies, but social
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emotional outcomes, how are kids feeling
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and how are they relating to each other?
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Um that's the primary outcome for many
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of the educators that I'm speaking with.
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They say when we started a policy that
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really restricted phone use during
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school hours and that includes where
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kids keep it, they made eye contact with
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each other more. They talked to each
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other more. You actually hear noise in
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the cafeteria. The noise the den of
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young people interact with each other.
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Before it was like you could you could
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hear a pin drop because the kids would
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just be silently, you know, scrolling
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through something with their thumb and
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shoveling food into their mouths. So, so
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I I really, you know, I don't want to
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sound like a lite because I think the
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role of technology is complicated and
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it's certainly got a lot of affordances
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that we don't want to ignore, but I
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worry about young people not interacting
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with each other, not having realistic,
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sensible ideas about, you know, what is
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expected of them and I worry about their
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attention.
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>> So, as you're collecting this data right
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now, what are the next steps in the
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process for this research? Well, you
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know, there are tens of thousands of uh
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middle schools and high schools in
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particular. As I mentioned before, a lot
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of the action is at the higher grade
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levels because that's where the policies
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are the least restrictive. And as a
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developmental psychologist, I will tell
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you that these are our most impulsive
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years of life. So, so we are thinking
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that maybe just maybe every middle and
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high school in America might participate
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in our survey. That would be at least
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one educator from every middle school
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and high school in the United States
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going at some point this month, this
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week, maybe today to phones
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andfocus.org.
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And if we really do that, if we
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accomplish that goal, then we will have
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a census of what is going on in this
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country. We're going to match that to
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standardized test scores, to attendance
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data, also to measures of climate and
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student engagement and well-being. And
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then we are going to deliver the results
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to the educators who answered the survey
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and you know to legislators who are
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making important decisions about the
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specifics of cell phone policy and how
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to optimize youth well-being, youth
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engagement and yes, youth achievement as
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well.
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>> Angela, great to talk to you again.
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Thanks very much.
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>> Always good to see you.
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>> Thank you. Angela Duckworth, professor
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of operations information and decisions
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here at the Warren School and again that
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website phonesinfocus.org.
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O RG
