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the FED has a dual mandate as part of
00:00:03
its price stability so it has
00:00:05
responsibility as Congress has drafted
00:00:07
the Federal Reserve Act both for Price
00:00:09
stability and maximum employment and
00:00:12
that's interesting because most other
00:00:14
central banks don't have this two-legged
00:00:15
mandate where they have to look out for
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both price stability and
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unemployment welcome to the ripple
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effect the podcast that takes you on a
00:00:24
journey through the minds of work and
00:00:26
faculty I'm your host Dan Looney and in
00:00:29
each episode we'll be diving deep into
00:00:30
the inspiration behind the
00:00:32
groundbreaking research that whon
00:00:34
professors have conducted and exploring
00:00:37
how their findings resonate with the
00:00:38
world today well one of the things to
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look at as we continue with our series
00:00:42
the economy and you is to get a better
00:00:45
understanding of the Federal Reserve
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Bank the role that it's playing now but
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also what the central bank's role is
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supposed to be in general great to be
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joined by Christina Skinner who's an
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assistant professor of legal studies and
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business ethics here at the Wharton
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School hi Christina how are you today hi
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I'm doing great thanks so much for
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having me on the show I'm really looking
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forward to our conversation you know
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it's interesting because we talk about
00:01:09
the FED it seems like almost on a daily
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basis right now because of everything
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that's going on with the economy and and
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the role that the FED is taking but for
00:01:18
those that really don't follow it as
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closely what does the FED do basically
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on a daily basis I think this is such a
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great and important question you know in
00:01:29
my own research I really strive toward
00:01:32
the goal of having everyday people
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understand what is a central bank and
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what it does especially at this
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particular moment in time when we've had
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a surge of inflation and people sort of
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generally know that the FED has grown a
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larger footprint in the financial
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markets people are starting to pay
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attention and really get interested from
00:01:49
a sort of you know everyday lay
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perspective what is the Fed doing and
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before I really answer your question
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directly I did want to just take a step
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back and make two things a little bit
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clear for our listeners and viewers
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which is I think so essential to having
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this big picture context about what is
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the Fed doing what does it mean for your
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everyday life so the first point is that
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the FED actually shouldn't be doing that
00:02:12
much at all on an everyday basis really
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the fed's main job is to keep the
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economy and the financial system on an
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even Keel right so the Central Bank
00:02:22
shouldn't be trying to micromanage the
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economy but the second Point here is
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also notable that the Fed doesn't have a
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direct relationship with people really
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at all so it doesn't lend directly to
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households ordinarily it doesn't have
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bank accounts for them the FED is really
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working through the banking system and
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the financial markets now with all that
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being said as you greatly suggest fed
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policy does of course ultimately touch
00:02:51
people's everyday lives in some pretty
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profound ways and since we're just
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starting I'm just going to give you the
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two sort of most significant or big
00:02:58
picture ways that fed policy touches our
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everyday lives now the first thing is
00:03:03
that Congress gave the fed the job of
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pursuing price stability so that means
00:03:08
minding watching out for inflation
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inflation is generally very bad for
00:03:13
economies very bad for societies because
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it's reducing the purchasing power of
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money so it's undermining our wealth
00:03:20
it's making people's real wages lower so
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that it's harder for them to pay for
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goods and services right because those
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wages aren't keeping up with an
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inflationary surge it's hard for
00:03:30
businesses to plan so this really drags
00:03:32
the economy down and this is the fed's
00:03:34
main job so this means that when we see
00:03:36
a surge of inflation above the fed's 2%
00:03:40
Target it's going to do things like in
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the first instance raise interest rates
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to try and cool the economy down and of
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course when the Central Bank raises
00:03:48
interest rates that really profoundly
00:03:50
impacts people's lives and their cost of
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crit for things like mortgages and cars
00:03:55
and credit cards the second thing to
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note in terms of how fed policy affects
00:04:00
people's everyday lives is that the FED
00:04:02
really takes its job seriously of
00:04:04
stepping in during economic shocks to
00:04:07
provide liquidity for the financial
00:04:09
system however this really matters for
00:04:11
everyday people because if the financial
00:04:14
system freezes up this severely impacts
00:04:17
the rest of the economy trickles down to
00:04:20
households businesses so for example
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lots of companies use a form of
00:04:24
short-term debt called commercial paper
00:04:26
to finance their operational needs like
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payroll so if you've got money market
00:04:30
funds that stop buying commercial paper
00:04:32
because they're in distress well this
00:04:34
means they're effectively ceasing to
00:04:36
lend to those small medium large
00:04:39
businesses and the FED doesn't want that
00:04:40
to happen it doesn't want Banks to stop
00:04:42
lending to people and businesses so it
00:04:44
really focuses on making sure that
00:04:46
credit can remain the lifeblood of the
00:04:48
economy so in a nutshell fed doesn't do
00:04:51
things directly for people but it works
00:04:52
through banks and the financial system
00:04:54
to try and keep price levels stable keep
00:04:56
the financial system stable and that's
00:04:58
how it helps us on an everyday basis but
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it it it sounds like though from what
00:05:03
we've been going through the last few
00:05:04
years that to degree it's also not
00:05:06
exactly an exact science as well uh
00:05:09
because the term transitory was used
00:05:11
when inflation was first coming up uh a
00:05:14
couple of years ago and as we've seen it
00:05:17
really hasn't been transitory in fact
00:05:19
it's been quite the challenge for the
00:05:21
FED to try and bring uh inflation down
00:05:24
over the last year and a half absolutely
00:05:28
it would be nice if it were a science
00:05:29
but like so much of public policy
00:05:32
combating inflation thinking about
00:05:33
inflation targeting it involves a
00:05:35
healthy dose of human judgment and
00:05:37
sometimes it requires just a lot of
00:05:38
plain old common sense now interestingly
00:05:40
transitory became almost a dirty word in
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the past few months because it was
00:05:46
really the rationale that slowed the FED
00:05:48
down in responding to inflation so the
00:05:52
idea was that inflation would pass Us by
00:05:55
would quickly dissipate because most of
00:05:58
the inflationary surge that we were
00:06:00
having was due to coid specific related
00:06:03
things like supply chain bottlenecks
00:06:05
spikes and energy pricing so on the
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basis of that rationale the fed and I
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will say all the other leading central
00:06:12
banks as well the FED wasn't out here on
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a limb waited what is now consensus view
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too long to start raising interest rates
00:06:20
and or slowing down the pace at which
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they were buying Bonds in their program
00:06:25
of quantitative easing so because the
00:06:28
Fed was used a set of macroeconomic
00:06:31
models and forecasting that said
00:06:32
inflation would basically go away on its
00:06:34
own the FED waited too long but we now
00:06:38
know that there are some demand side
00:06:40
aspects to the inflation that we're
00:06:41
seeing as well that largely have to do
00:06:44
with a very rapid and significant
00:06:46
increase in the money supply that came
00:06:49
from fiscal stimulus in Congress and the
00:06:51
FED tools can be used to do something
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about that demand side component of
00:06:55
inflation so that component of monetary
00:06:58
policy is really it is truly one of the
00:07:02
key components that the FED really has
00:07:04
to focus on uh on a day-to-day basis
00:07:07
absolutely so you know I think when
00:07:10
people tend to think about central banks
00:07:12
they do generally think about monetary
00:07:14
policy and they think about inflation
00:07:17
now to dig in a little bit deeper give
00:07:19
you a little bit more uh context and
00:07:21
Nuance here the FED has a dual mandate
00:07:25
as part of its price stability so it has
00:07:27
responsibility as Congress has drafted
00:07:29
the Federal Reserve Act both for Price
00:07:31
stability and maximum employment and
00:07:34
that's interesting because most other
00:07:36
central banks don't have this two-legged
00:07:38
mandate where they have to look out for
00:07:39
both price stability and unemployment
00:07:43
however the sort of course of history
00:07:45
has taught us that we really can't have
00:07:48
maximum employment if we don't have
00:07:50
price stability so the FED tends to sort
00:07:52
of think first about how it can keep
00:07:55
inflation steady at that 2% Target and
00:07:58
then sort of other ways that it can
00:08:00
address the employment side of its
00:08:03
mandate and So within this sort of
00:08:05
umbrella of monetary policy the FED has
00:08:07
a couple different tools I mentioned
00:08:09
some of them already it thinks about
00:08:11
setting interest rates right not just to
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deal with inflation but in the ordinary
00:08:16
course of things the fed the Federal
00:08:19
Open Market Committee more specifically
00:08:20
will meet and decide what interest rate
00:08:22
should be uh important to note here that
00:08:25
sort of going back to my earlier remarks
00:08:26
the FED isn't directly setting Market
00:08:29
interest rates that people see when
00:08:30
they're applying for a Mor a mortgage or
00:08:33
a car loan but the FED does set the
00:08:35
interest that it pays on Bank Reserves
00:08:37
which then sort of influences the market
00:08:39
rates and and tends to mirror that rate
00:08:41
pretty closely the FED also does things
00:08:44
like buy Bond it buys government
00:08:46
securities treasuries in the open market
00:08:49
and it usually does this now in the
00:08:51
context of what I referred to earlier is
00:08:53
quantitative easing so it buys a bunch
00:08:54
of bonds to try and stimulate the
00:08:56
economy if it needs to and lower an
00:08:58
interest rates is no longer sufficient
00:09:01
to juice the economy and it also does
00:09:04
some other sort of more complicated and
00:09:06
nuanced things so for example it will
00:09:08
lend to Banks through the discount
00:09:10
window in normal times it will lend to
00:09:12
Banks and other kinds of financial
00:09:14
institutions or companies in sort of an
00:09:17
emergency context and now through
00:09:19
something called the overnight reverse
00:09:21
repurchase agreement facility that's a
00:09:23
mouthful right it will also effectively
00:09:25
lend to other kinds of Institutions like
00:09:27
money market funds in a way that mirrors
00:09:29
lending to the discount l so this is
00:09:31
pretty much all the stuff that the FED
00:09:33
does under its monetary policy umbrella
00:09:36
and it's really all geared toward that
00:09:38
monetary policy mandate which is price
00:09:40
stability which the FED has defined as
00:09:42
inflation at an average of 2% and
00:09:45
maximum employment but part of it at
00:09:47
least what we have been talking about in
00:09:49
recent months in regards to fed and the
00:09:51
banking sector also I guess ties back
00:09:54
into what we've seen uh with some of the
00:09:57
issues within the banking sector with
00:09:58
silic Valley Bank uh and the like in
00:10:01
recent months as well absolutely so
00:10:04
after the
00:10:06
2010 dodf Frank act this was a piece of
00:10:09
post crisis legislation so in the in the
00:10:11
dodf Frank Act Congress was essentially
00:10:13
responding to the global financial
00:10:14
crisis the FED gained much more
00:10:17
supervisory and Regulatory authority
00:10:20
over systemically important financial
00:10:22
institutions so these are Financial
00:10:25
holding companies than City group and
00:10:28
also non-banks that the financial
00:10:31
stability oversight Council might
00:10:33
designate as systemically important so
00:10:36
the point here is that the FED is now
00:10:38
also a regulator and a supervisor for
00:10:40
really large Financial holding companies
00:10:43
it's a supervisor it's a bank regulator
00:10:45
so this is a completely separate
00:10:47
function that it has from its monetary
00:10:49
policy mandate so the case of Silicon
00:10:52
Valley Bank was really interesting and
00:10:54
challenging for the FED because there in
00:10:57
that incident in that ter well you saw
00:10:59
the fed's two mandates its monetary
00:11:02
policy mandate for Price stability
00:11:04
conflicting with its responsibility to
00:11:07
be a supervisor of the banking system
00:11:09
and sort of maintain and procure
00:11:11
Financial stability why is that well the
00:11:15
rise in inflation required that the FED
00:11:17
raise interest rates quite rapidly and
00:11:20
quite quite steeply which is what in
00:11:22
fact it had been doing for the past 18
00:11:24
months at the same time when you raise
00:11:27
interest rates there's a famous saying
00:11:29
you know when the FED raises rates
00:11:31
someone's always going to you know when
00:11:33
you see them on the break someone's
00:11:34
going to go through the windshield we
00:11:35
just don't know who and that's basically
00:11:37
sort of referring to the fact that
00:11:39
something's going to break in the
00:11:40
financial system causing Financial
00:11:43
instability so in initial you know
00:11:45
raising interest rates was part of the
00:11:48
reason why this interest rate risk
00:11:50
materialized for Silicon Valley Bank in
00:11:52
a way that they had improperly managed
00:11:55
causing that bank's failure and some
00:11:59
bumps in the rest of the banking system
00:12:01
so you saw this clash between the FED
00:12:02
wanting to maintain Financial stability
00:12:04
and it really needing to ensure price
00:12:07
stability so that's something new that
00:12:09
the FED has to wrestle with since this
00:12:11
2010 piece of legislation that had
00:12:13
basically said to the fed you know
00:12:15
you're responsible for financial
00:12:16
stability for making sure that the
00:12:18
banking sector is stable but also we
00:12:20
still need you to make sure we don't
00:12:21
have inflation what about the
00:12:23
relationship between the Federal Reserve
00:12:25
and Congress in general that's a great
00:12:27
question so you know central banks are
00:12:31
supposed to be independent right we
00:12:32
learned this lesson a couple of decades
00:12:35
ago so Independence is really a nuanced
00:12:38
thing when you're talking about a
00:12:39
central bank because Independence
00:12:41
doesn't mean not accountable so the FED
00:12:44
has a tricky sometimes relationship
00:12:47
between its boss which is Congress on
00:12:49
the one hand and the executive branch so
00:12:52
when we tend to refer to the central
00:12:54
bank we say well it's independent from
00:12:56
the executive branch it's not supposed
00:12:57
to take instructions or pressure from
00:13:00
the from the executive from the
00:13:01
president who has short-term political
00:13:03
goals and is that really supposed to
00:13:05
take in political instruction from
00:13:06
Congress ideally but at the same time
00:13:08
Congress created the Federal Reserve and
00:13:11
the FED is an agent of Congress and so
00:13:15
the FED has to be accountable to
00:13:17
Congress you know Congress exercises
00:13:19
oversight over the FED but just like we
00:13:21
don't want the executive branch giving
00:13:24
the FED sort of political jobs to do
00:13:27
sort of you know Finance the transition
00:13:30
to a green economy Finance uh you know
00:13:32
War uh you know wall on the border those
00:13:34
are sort of partisan issues that we
00:13:37
prefer to keep the Central Bank out of
00:13:39
as a technocratic Economic Policy maker
00:13:42
uh so his relationship with Congress is
00:13:43
kind of a dance right has to answer to
00:13:45
Congress and Congress could technically
00:13:47
ask it to do any range of things but
00:13:50
historically right Congress has sort of
00:13:52
said okay these are your
00:13:53
responsibilities price stability and
00:13:56
employment and you know we talked about
00:13:58
the do Frank Financial stability and so
00:14:00
the FED has to sort of stay in that lane
00:14:02
that Congress has set for it while
00:14:04
trying to navigate inevitably the
00:14:06
political issues that get put on its
00:14:08
plate from time to time then let me also
00:14:11
ask you then that you also have the
00:14:13
relationship between Congress and the
00:14:15
Federal Reserve Bank but what about the
00:14:17
the the relationship between the Federal
00:14:19
Reserve Bank and the regional federal
00:14:21
reserves as well because there are a
00:14:23
dozen of them located in different spots
00:14:26
around the country we have one here in
00:14:27
Philadelphia how does that relationship
00:14:30
kind of parse out uh in terms of dealing
00:14:32
with a lot of these issues that's a
00:14:35
really great question and I think it's
00:14:37
an aspect of our Central Bank that a lot
00:14:39
of people Overlook and yet it's
00:14:41
incredibly distinctive so as you say our
00:14:44
Central Bank has this Federalist
00:14:46
structure which really sort of mirrors
00:14:48
the Federalist structure of our country
00:14:49
where we've got the board in Washington
00:14:51
which was always intended to be a more
00:14:55
uh politically responsive organization
00:14:57
right so the FED board is a government
00:14:59
agency it sets policy it's the you know
00:15:02
J Powell the chair of the FED board is
00:15:04
one testifying before Congress and then
00:15:06
there are these 12 Regional reserve
00:15:08
banks that have this sort of interesting
00:15:10
public Private Structure so the reserve
00:15:13
banks as you say are located in in
00:15:15
regions all across the country and they
00:15:18
themselves have a board of directors
00:15:20
which is appointed by their private
00:15:23
member banks so the banks in the region
00:15:25
of the Reserve Bank are members of that
00:15:28
reserving they appoint the board of
00:15:30
directors so in that sense it has a a
00:15:32
private element at the same time it's
00:15:34
carrying out these public policy goals
00:15:37
right so it is supposed to be responsive
00:15:41
to the Board of Governors the Board of
00:15:42
Governors you know the way to think
00:15:44
about it the Board of Governors is set
00:15:45
in the policy but those reserve banks
00:15:47
are operationalizing policy so you've
00:15:49
got the New York fed doing open market
00:15:51
operations pursuant to instructions from
00:15:54
the Board of Governors and you have the
00:15:57
regional Reserve Bank actually on the
00:15:59
ground supervising banks in their
00:16:01
District on a day-to-day basis even
00:16:03
though the Board of Governors is setting
00:16:05
the overarching supervisory policy but
00:16:09
this sort of Quirk of history that the
00:16:11
reserve banks are public policy
00:16:14
organizations but have this private sort
00:16:16
of Board of Governors comes up from time
00:16:19
to time and people wonder whether we
00:16:21
should revisit that structure I'm
00:16:23
actually not one of those people but
00:16:24
it's worth noting that the debate is out
00:16:28
there because we are one of the only
00:16:29
central banks that has this unique
00:16:31
public private element and for example
00:16:34
it became sort of live issue again in
00:16:36
the context of Silicon Valley Bank when
00:16:39
people start asking questions about you
00:16:40
know what was the Regional Federal
00:16:42
Reserve Bank in San Francisco doing and
00:16:45
not pushing harder on SVP to deal with
00:16:48
some of its unrealized losses some of
00:16:50
its unhedged interest rate risks so an
00:16:52
interesting Quirk of our Central Bank
00:16:54
which you know I tend to think makes it
00:16:56
stronger because you have this diverse
00:16:58
set of viewpoints coming in from all
00:17:00
over the country feeding into the Board
00:17:02
of Governors but it's it's certainly a a
00:17:05
unique characteristic I guess the last
00:17:06
point I should mention about our
00:17:08
structure is that the Federal Open
00:17:10
Market Committee which is the organ of
00:17:12
the FED that is setting interest rate
00:17:15
policy draws on the expertise and the
00:17:18
knowledge of the regional Reserve Bank
00:17:20
presidents and several of the Reserve
00:17:23
Bank presidents will sit on the fomc on
00:17:25
a rotating
00:17:26
basis so fed also has to adjust to uh
00:17:31
the changes that go on within the
00:17:33
structure of our economy uh our
00:17:35
currencies Etc uh one of which I guess
00:17:38
is unique element that's going on right
00:17:40
now in and around cryptocurrency and how
00:17:44
our economy our culture is going to kind
00:17:47
of bring that into the mix as we move
00:17:50
longer term it has already but it's an
00:17:52
element that the FED probably has to
00:17:54
consider as well absolutely so like so
00:17:58
many Hot Topics in our economy right now
00:18:00
the FED hasn't escaped this one either
00:18:02
and it's sort of you know fret and
00:18:04
Center in the in the cryptocurrency I'll
00:18:06
call it debate because it really is a
00:18:07
debate right now both in terms of how to
00:18:10
regulate and construct a legal framework
00:18:12
around various forms of cryptocurrencies
00:18:14
and crypto assets and also specifically
00:18:16
what the Central Bank should do in its
00:18:18
corner of the regulatory universe and I
00:18:21
will say in the crypto World there are
00:18:24
two issues in particular that are live
00:18:26
issues for the fed the first is what to
00:18:29
do about stable coins and I don't mean
00:18:32
whether to classify them as a security
00:18:34
or a commodity that's a separate debate
00:18:36
the debate that's relevant for the
00:18:38
central bank is whether it should
00:18:40
provide access to Accounts at those
00:18:43
regional federal reserve banks for
00:18:45
stable coin issuers and the reason why
00:18:48
this matters is because from a payments
00:18:51
system perspective no payment is final
00:18:54
until it's settled in Central Bank
00:18:56
Reserves and central bank money so
00:18:57
settlement has to happen on The Ledger
00:18:59
of the central bank before any payment
00:19:01
transaction is final so if you aren't a
00:19:04
bank or another financial institution
00:19:06
that has an account at the Federal
00:19:08
Reserve then you can't sort of engage in
00:19:12
payment settlement finality yourself you
00:19:13
have to go through another intermediary
00:19:15
so that's necessarily an inefficiency
00:19:17
for a stable coin issuer so there's a
00:19:20
live debate right now about whether the
00:19:21
FED should open up access to these
00:19:24
stable coin issuers bring them into the
00:19:26
fold alongside the banks let them engag
00:19:28
in in in payments work and the question
00:19:31
is which the FED is I think still trying
00:19:33
to figure out is doing so going to be
00:19:36
net beneficial for the economy is it
00:19:38
going to increase Financial stability
00:19:41
risk or not is it going to increase
00:19:43
payments efficiency or not and how to
00:19:45
weigh those costs and benefits setting
00:19:48
stable coin to one side the other sort
00:19:50
of crypto issue that's lied for the FED
00:19:52
right now is one that's relevant for all
00:19:55
almost all central banks around the
00:19:56
world right now which is is whether the
00:19:58
FED should create something called a
00:20:00
central bank digital currency referred
00:20:02
to as a cbdc now a cbdc would be
00:20:06
essentially similar to a stab coin
00:20:09
except it would be a sovereign form of
00:20:12
money you can think of it in very
00:20:14
simplified terms like digital cash
00:20:17
although for reasons that are probably
00:20:18
too nuanced to get into right now it's
00:20:20
not completely similar to digital cast
00:20:22
but the idea is you know should the
00:20:24
state the government create something
00:20:26
that is a digital dollar and that's not
00:20:30
the fed's decision to make that's
00:20:32
congress's decision to make but the FED
00:20:34
of course can't avoid thinking about the
00:20:37
issue having an opinion on the issue you
00:20:40
know being aware of the fact that other
00:20:41
central banks around the world are
00:20:43
pretty actively advanced in developing a
00:20:44
central bank digital currency so that'll
00:20:46
certainly be a issue and a debate to
00:20:49
look out for in the coming years you
00:20:51
know it is interesting because we are at
00:20:53
a time and I want to thank you for
00:20:55
coming on and talking today it seems
00:20:57
like the Federal Reserve gets more
00:20:58
attention now than ever before maybe
00:21:01
it's a byproduct of the media World
00:21:02
we're we're living in right now but it
00:21:04
seemingly every move that the FED makes
00:21:08
these days is scrutinized even more so
00:21:10
than maybe it has been ever
00:21:12
before I think that's you know
00:21:14
absolutely the case for a number of
00:21:16
factors as you suggest right it's the
00:21:18
fact that we're having inflation for the
00:21:20
first time since the 70s it's the fact
00:21:22
that the FED is an incredibly effective
00:21:24
and Powerful institution so people will
00:21:26
naturally look to it to do things that
00:21:29
they want governments to do whether or
00:21:32
not that is necessarily within the fed's
00:21:34
statutory mandate and because our
00:21:37
financial system is really large and
00:21:38
complex and the FED has become a
00:21:40
counterparty to so many institutions so
00:21:43
again thank you for the opportunity to
00:21:45
to speak to the audience a little bit
00:21:46
more about what the the FED does and I
00:21:48
hope we can do a part two sometime soon
00:21:51
absolutely Christina schinner assistant
00:21:53
professor of legal studies and business
00:21:54
ethics here at the Wharton School thank
00:21:57
you for listening to the ripple effect
00:21:59
we hope you found this episode
00:22:00
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00:22:04
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Insight from the warten school
