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Welcome everyone to the future of finance podcast here at the Wharton School. My name is Itai Goldstein. I'm a
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professor in the finance department and currently the chair of the finance department and we are focusing the
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second season of the future of finance uh podcast on cryptocurrencies uh digital assets uh decentralized finance
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and everything related to that. These are new innovations that are promising to change the world of finance, the way
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that we trade, the way that we pay uh and the financial system uh more generally. And an important part of the
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story of uh cryptocurrencies and digital assets is certainly regulation. Some people will say that we have too much uh
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regulation or regulatory uncertainty and that this is stifling innovation in this
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space and others will say that we need regulation and maybe we need even more regulation because there are many
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threats potential fraud uh and potential risk for uh the system as a whole uh what we think of as systemic risk. So
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those are issues that we want to discuss here today in uh this uh episode of the
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second uh season. Uh and we have two perfect guests uh to talk about uh these uh these issues. Uh one is uh Jessica
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Waktail who is the Dr. Bruce I Jacobs Professor of Quantitative Finance here at the Wharton School. So I've been here
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with Jessica over the last 20 years or so. I think she arrived one year before me. uh and uh she uh thought a lot about
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the regulatory aspects of uh digital assets and cryptocurrency because she just came back from serving
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as the chief economist at the SEC, the Securities and Exchange uh Commission. Uh welcome uh Jessica.
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>> Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. And then the second guest
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that we have is uh Tim Msad who is currently senior fellow at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard
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University. Uh he also has a vast experience in uh policy and thought a lot about uh crypto and digital assets
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among other things. He is the former chairman of the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission, the CFTC
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and he has been participating in many of our events here at the Whartalon Initiative on Financial Policy and
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Regulation uh Wiffer where we have been thinking quite a bit about the regulatory aspects of uh crypto and
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digital assets. Hello Tim. >> Hi, thank you for having me. >> So with this introduction, let's uh dive
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right in. There's a lot uh to discuss and I want to start from uh the basics.
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Uh we talk a lot about regulation in the space of digital assets. Uh but this is
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not disconnected from broader financial regulation and regulation that we have in other markets and other financial
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institutions. So I want to take a step back and understand a little better what is potentially special about uh digital
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assets and why is regulation of digital assets potentially different uh than regulation in other areas of the
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financial system. Uh so Jessica maybe you can start with that. >> Sure. Um happy to start. Uh so I think
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there's a couple things to be considered. One is that the original vision of uh cryptocurrency uh going
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back to you know the white paper um uh the Bitcoin white paper is one of decentralization
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and that's going to create a tension with our regulatory system and moving more towards the present um
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this is a situation where securities and non-securities are inseparable and just to put it in non um digital
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asset terms. We don't normally use gold to say buy Apple stock on the New York
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Stock Exchange. We don't really know how that might work and that's the situation
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that we have with crypto platforms. I think another challenge is that the crypto ecosystem developed outside of
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the regulatory system and that's created a bit of a chicken and egg problem. So in
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the traditional financial system we have securities that trade on registered exchanges. That's a very important part.
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It's not the whole financial system by any means, but it's a very important
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part of how um institutions and retail interact with the financial system, but what do you do when both the tokens,
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which are kind of like the equities here, and the platforms are unregistered? You don't you need one to
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go first, but neither can operate while the other is still unregistered. So I so
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I think that those um decentralization the intertwined notion of securities and non-securities and the chicken and egg
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problem are three challenges uh that would need to be overcome. >> Very good. Tim, do you want to weigh in?
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>> Sure. Well, I would first say the the problem is that we speak of digital
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assets as if it's an asset class and it isn't. It's a technology. We're talking
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about blockchain and tokenization technologies which can be used in all sorts of ways. You can have tokenization
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of securities of stocks and bonds and potentially other real world assets or other financial instruments. You can
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have network tokens of blockchains which is what Bitcoin and ETH are. You can have tokens that are really for
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consumption as in games. You can have meme coins. you're going to have collectibles. So, we can't really
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regulate digital assets per se. What we need to do in regulation is really three
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things. One is we have to address the gap we have in the United States with respect to regulation which is that in
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so far as some tokens aren't securities but are financial instruments whether
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you want to call them commodities or something like commodities we don't have
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a federal regulator for that spot market and that's been something that lots of
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people have recognized but we haven't done anything about it. Secondly, we do
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need greater clarity in when is a token a security, when is it not a security. And as Jessica said, that's, you know,
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there's um a lot of gray areas to that because tokens can change over time, if
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you will. Um and the third thing we need to do is make sure that the rules we have about how to use this technology
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are neutral or that is the rules we have for things like recordkeeping, custody, clearance and settlement should
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be technologically neutral. They shouldn't be inhibiting use of this technology but I don't think they should
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be promoting it per se either uh also let the market decide that. So I think what both of you are saying
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is pointing to one friction that has been on the minds of many people who are observing this. uh I would say maybe
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more generally with financial regulation but in particular when it comes to uh digital assets and this is the potential
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uh fragmentation the fact that uh it is not clear who should regulate uh what and then you have some tensions you have
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different rules coming from different uh uh agencies uh and that creates even uh
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greater uncertainty. So is that a a bug that we can uh overcome or is that just a feature of the system that we are
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dealing with? >> It certainly has been a cause of some of the difficulty in addressing this. You
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know, we have two market regulators, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading
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Commission. And when you have a technology that allows for the development of innovative products that
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kind of cut across those agencies jurisdictional lines that becomes very challenging. If for example we had a
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unitary regulator as some jurisdictions do it be it is easier to address financial innovations because you say
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all right my my jurisdiction covers all financial instruments. I see kind of this new technology I'm going to address
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that. So we have been saddled with that. I do think that that's one of the reasons when we think about the solution
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about how to regulate we actually need to bring the agencies closer together. A lot of people say well what we need is
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very clear lines of jurisdiction. What the CFTC regulates and what the SEC regulates and that all sounds good but
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in fact there are gray areas here. You can have tokens which kind of seem to be securities at first but then can become
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commodities effectively because they are decentralized. So and again you want rules on how to use this technology
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which are reasonably consistent between the two agencies. So I think the solution lies in
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bringing the agencies closer together in various ways. You don't have to merge
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them. uh that's been suggested many times before and we've never wanted to
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take that step, but we do have to create ways that they're going to work together
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on on these issues. >> So Jessica, what is your take on fragmentation? Uh obviously you just
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experienced some of it in DC. I don't know how much you want to >> Sure. Well, I I'm I I'll I'll say a
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couple things and I'll um I think uh um Tim uh said it well, which is um I I've
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I don't believe that bringing that creating one financial regulator actually is the answer here, but this is
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clearly something that the CFTC and the SEC uh would will have to and actually do currently work together on. Um and
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that's something that both agencies know how to do. And it does it does you know
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at the margin create some frictions and perhaps slows them things down a little bit. But I I believe in my experience
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the extent to which that happens is somewhat overstated. And I think that fragmentation itself is
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not really the problem that we have. Um I mean I think the the issue is that some of these problems are difficult
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problems and it's not obvious what the solutions are. uh but I think that the
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many issues actually are similar to the types of questions that the SEC has worked on for many decades. Um so I I
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generally think both here and in other settings that the you know fragmentation of the US financial market story is a
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little overstated. I think that there's strengths to our system visav other jurisdictions. You know, for one thing,
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we have a strong and experienced market regulator and not all jurisdictions have
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that. Um, and I think that's been very helpful for the development of financial
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markets. And I think having the CFTC and the SEC separate has allowed for experimentation also. So in some cases
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um you know for some sets of rules and this is outside of crypto uh the CFTC has gone first and the SEC has been able
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to see how things have worked out and learn from that and vice versa. So so I think that there's actually some real
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benefits to our system. >> Yeah, I you know I I would agree with a lot of that. I don't mean to suggest
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that fragmentation is the main problem here. Um and you know I do think there are benefits to the fact that we've had
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two regulators. Um, but I do think when Congress thinks about what to do here, um, it's not just
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going to be a simple process of writing legislation that says, "Okay, this is a
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digital commodity. Uh, CFTC go regulate that because um those are, you know, those are difficult questions and I just
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think we want the two agencies working together and I agree they're they're
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capable of that um particularly when they're led by chairs who have that mentality. So one of the biggest
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questions when it comes to regulation and it's not directly what we talked about but follows up on that is uh the
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idea that because of regulation and because of regulatory uncertainty we don't see uh as much innovation in the
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space of digital assets and decentralized finance as we would have hoped. And uh proponents of this theory
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would say that here we have a set of new technologies that uh promise to revolutionize the the way we do finance
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and monetary economics. Um but then because of all these uh uh regulations and regulatory uncertainty and all
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potential political issues um there is just not enough uh innovation and we are uh falling behind. Uh so what what is
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your take on that? I think it's overblown. Uh I, you know, the industry loves to say this. Uh and sure, you
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know, you could certainly make the argument that gee, if we had regulatory clarity, uh people could, you know, more
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easily launch products, raise money, they wouldn't even consider doing something abroad and so forth. But in
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the grand scheme of things, I think it's an overblown argument. Um I don't think
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uh you know that's what's preventing um this technology from displacing JP
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Morgan or something like that you know which sometimes uh crypto enthusiasts love to say oh this is really going to
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transform finance. I think it's an important technology. I think we will see it used in a lot of ways. I think
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we're getting there. I don't think we're as far behind other jurisdictions as uh
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some would have. >> Jessica, do you agree with that? Uh yes, I do. Um I I'll add a couple points. One
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is that um the sort of broad crypto space developed for years uh really without this it developed to be actually quite
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large and significant I would say um relative to where it started without the regulatory certainty. Um I I think it's
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possible that the regulatory uncertainty has impeded some of the traditional financial players from having as large a
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role in crypto as they might otherwise. But the fact is crypto has generally been a retail and sort of decentralized
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driven business anyways. So um I I do agree that this is a overblown argument. That said, I mean, I think regulatory
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clarity would be quite helpful. >> So, going a little deeper into why we need regulation to begin with, I would
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say one issue that is general in in finance uh but seems to be particularly prevalent when it comes to uh digital
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assets is fraud. And we have seen uh I would say a fair share of of fraud uh probably more than uh was anticipated uh
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initially and and this has uh caused a lot of concern and and led to a call for more uh regulation. Um what what do you
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think about that? So why do we see so much fraud in this uh space and is there a clear way forward when we can uh avoid
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it or is that just going to be part of the system? Well, I think we've seen a
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lot of fraud and manipulation for and other problems for two reasons. Um, one is it is an unregulated sector largely
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at least the um what we what we often call the spot market in tokens that are not securities and of course the crypto
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industry is has argued that basically most security most tokens are not securities. Um that's unregulated number
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one and it's also um easy to enter. uh you can be you know 18 or 20 year years
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old and in college and create a token or create an app and launch that and who knows you know you might make a lot of
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money at it. Um but you also therefore have a lot of people uh as you do in any kind of um area of financial activity
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who are looking to make a quick buck and often not through the most uh ethical means. And so you have pump and dump
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schemes. You have a lot of wash trading on platforms. Wash trading is where people essentially trade with themselves
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to push up the price uh of something or to make it appear there's more interest
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than there is. We saw with the whole ICO phenomenon of people selling tokens without good disclosure. Um so you know
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it's not surprising uh that we've had all this. Um and again it's the reason
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why we need a comprehensive sort of regulatory approach to it. >> Yeah, I would say that it's surprising
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from the point of view of you know our current markets some of the most visible parts do not appear to be
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rife with with fraud. Now, that's I think in part, you know, we've never
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done the experiment, but I think in large part because of our um securities regime going back to the 30s. Um but the
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point is people forget that we've got that. It becomes in the background. It's
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like, you know, part of the air we breathe. It's like, you know, the fish in the water. And so we forget that
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that's protecting us from what would otherwise be probably rampant fraud in traditional securities as well. So
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crypto developed and it didn't really have this this backing. Um so I'm actually not sure it's more prevalent.
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Um maybe it is. We don't have the data. Um part of the data is that we don't
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have the part of the issue is that we don't have the regulations. Um but you
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know there's plenty of fraud in the um sort of dark corners of the equity markets too with very small um equity
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securities that don't trade on exchanges. And the other side of uh regulation, the
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other reason why we have regulation in financial markets more generally is the concern about systemic risk. Uh and the
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idea that if there is a problem in one type of asset, one type of institution, this is going to spill over affecting
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the rest of the financial system and uh ultimately also the real economy. uh this has been mentioned uh in the
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context of uh cryptocurrencies and digital assets but it's not clear that this is at this point big enough uh to
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worry us. Uh what is your take on that? >> I'll just quickly jump in and say I I
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don't think crypto at the present time is large enough to to pose a systemic
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risk. I tend to think that the nature of some of these contracts is not such that
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it would normally tend itself to systemic risk because they're more equity type contracts. Um but of course
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stable coins which perhaps we'll talk about are big exception because those are demand deposit contracts like like a
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deposit in a bank account and so um in some sense you could say are asking for trouble.
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>> Yeah, I I I would agree with that. Um the only thing I would add though is
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that you know when we talk about systemic risk it's um it's hard to identify where that's going to come
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from. Uh you know and and you can imagine scenarios where because of the overall context something happens in
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crypto it's gotten a little bigger and maybe the overall environment uh has some other factors that are contributing
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to to anxiety or to to uh concern you know. So it's it's the proverbial uh
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you know thing of the butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil or whatever. Um but
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I would agree that today the sector is is not so large that it would be my top concern for systemic risk. That's for
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sure. >> Right. But you did mention uh stable coin uh Jessica and uh I would say this
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is potentially an area where we might see it because the whole point of stable coin is to offer stability and then you
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have the usual problem where uh you commit to certain payments but uh the underlying assets might not support it
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and this might generate a run. I should say we have another episode where we talk in detail about uh stable coin and
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go into some of these uh issues. Uh so that that might be one place where we might uh fear about uh systemic risk and
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and that is a good segment to thinking a bit more about uh stable coin because if
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we are focusing on regulation I would say stable coin is one area where uh there is a clearer path for uh
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regulation and as we speak the there is a bill that is making its way through uh
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congress. Um so what is your take on uh stable coin uh the the regulatory aspects of it where we are and are we
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headed in the right direction? >> Um happy to take that one first. I think
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we're headed in the right direction. Uh as you mentioned while the at the time
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we're recording this the Genius Act is uh coming up uh soon for a vote in the
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House. it may very well uh have gone to the president by the time this is aired.
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The Genius Act creates a basic framework for the regulation of stable coins and I
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think it gets um some things right. Uh it's good on uh some of the basic credential requirements that we would
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want to see. I mean a stable coin is a token whose value is pegged uh to the dollar to another fiat currency or or to
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another sort of asset. Of course, there can be stable coins that are tied to other crypto tokens. I'm just talking
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about the ones that are tied to uh fiat currencies. And so, the legislation that is
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currently being considered, a stable coin issuer, you know, would be required to have full reserves backing the stable
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coins that it's issued, meaning for every token, you have to hold that dollar. You have to conservatively
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invest it. There are limitations on the activities of stable coin issuers, and that's all good. Um, I do think there
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are some weaknesses in the legislation. We can get into those if you want. Um, but you know, the real question is will
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this market grow significantly and we'll have to see. Um, there are a lot of
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elements to payments and why people choose certain payment instruments and the big volume of payments of course is
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not retail, it's businessto business. And will we see uh large use of stable
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coins among businesses? Um that's not clear. We can get into that uh if you like.
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>> Yeah. So Jessica, I I'll give you an opportunity to uh weigh in. >> Sure. And I I would agree. I think this
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is directionally right. Um I think anything and uh it you described it well. anything with a structure like a
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stable coin is uh is going to have some kind of run risk and I I think that can be mitigated by the certain safeguards
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that um you know Congress is putting in about restrictions about what they can hold and the the requirements for
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audits. I'll add that there is this question here about how stable coins relate to the vast money market fund
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industry. Um, there's this question about whether stable coins pay interest.
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Um, I'm not an attorney. My understanding is that this this is still a little bit of a gray area. Um,
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people might want a stable coin that pays interest. Um, but currently it's, you know, money market funds. This is
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how they differentiate themselves. And the more stable coins come to look like money market funds, the more we might
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start to see the tendency for regulatory arbitrage versus the money market fund regime. And that's probably an area
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where we don't want a race to the bottom. >> Yeah. And we're already seeing tokenized
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money market funds. And I agree there are going to be a lot of um participants who want an interestbearing um tokenized
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instrument. I think, you know, for where we are, I think it made sense to stay in
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the legislation as it currently does that stable coins can't pay interest, but there's clearly going to be the
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development of tokenized products that pay interest. Now, whether those are more accountbased in some way, you know,
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tokenized deposits or deposit tokens um by banks, uh that's another uh innovation that we may very well see and
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not in in the not too distant future. So, how big do you think this sector is going to be going forward? You started
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talking about that. >> I'll let Jessica make the prediction. >> I I really think this is just this is
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just impossible to say. Um I I really think it just depends on on too many things. um and in part on whether some
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of the more optimistic claims for the crypto sector as a whole bear out because that's obviously one of the
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possible uses for stable coins. >> Yeah. And when you when you think about
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the use cases, I mean, clearly people who are in countries with weak currencies or high inflation, who want
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access to the dollar and who can't get a US dollar bank account might turn to
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stable coins, and they are um clearly to the extent we're talking about trading
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tokenized assets on chain, you need onchain cash. That's what a stable coin is. Though again you might see tokenized
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money market funds used for that as well. So if you see tokenization of other products and trading on chain that
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use case could grow. But again when you look at sort of businessto business payments that now use you know chips or
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the fed wire are they going to suddenly move to stable coins? There's a lot of
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issues there and uh that's why it's so hard to predict this market. >> Right. So going back to the uh topic of
00:27:10
uh regulation uh I think we had a good discussion on what are the reasons for regulation what's good about the current
00:27:17
framework what's not so good what could be improved uh one argument that often
00:27:22
comes up is that the US is falling behind other jurisdictions and Europe is often mentioned as uh you know a system
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where uh they acted uh faster and they have a more uniform approach there is uh Mika uh framework uh that that is uh
00:27:41
supposed to uh capture the the whole system of uh digital assets and stable coins and so on. Um so what what is your
00:27:50
take on uh the issue of uh the US versus other places and what might explain why
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the US has not done so well on this? I don't think we're as far behind as uh
00:28:02
some crypto enthusiasts might uh lead you to believe. Yes, Europe has imple has passed ma but they still have to
00:28:10
implement ma and implementation of ma involves the 27 member countries in many cases writing rules. Uh that is a
00:28:20
challenging process. I just held a 4-day training session at Harvard for regulators around the world on digital
00:28:26
assets and a lot of them were saying no we still face a lot of the challenges that the US faces and even with Mika for
00:28:33
example it regulates things that aren't financial instruments. Uh so they actually have
00:28:42
even in their law the similar challenges that we have on when is something a security, when is it not a security, if
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it's not a security, what is it? Um so you know we're getting there. Um it may
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not be as fast as uh as we'd like. Uh clearly the Trump administration wants
00:29:01
to move forward. Uh Congress uh wants to move forward. Um so I don't think this
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is uh you know as big a problem as the industry might like you to believe but I do want to see us you know develop a
00:29:16
regulatory framework so that we can see how this tech how this technology can be
00:29:21
used. >> Uh Jessica >> I mean I'll I'll say that the the commission has indicated um that people
00:29:29
should come in and discuss their product. So I I I think that the case that we are currently impeding
00:29:38
innovation is is pretty weak. Um and the US just has an enormous financial market
00:29:45
just in absolute as well as in relative terms. So I don't I don't see evidence
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that we've fallen behind here. Um though I do think that it's going to be
00:29:56
valuable to solve some of the problems that we've been discussing. uh that's
00:30:01
that's going to be helpful but um I I think that there's there's a commitment
00:30:07
to doing so and so that's that's really I think what people need in terms of you
00:30:12
know putting these ideas forward again I don't think that the barrier at this
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point is not a regulatory one >> okay so as we are coming close to the end of this episode I would like to
00:30:25
maybe offer you a chance to kind of summarize your uh view on future regulation and what you would like to to
00:30:32
see going forward. So maybe in in you know 30 seconds or so uh if you were to envision a regulatory framework that uh
00:30:41
will uh take care of this uh space of digital assets and have us go into a world of innovation and the future of
00:30:50
finance if you want. Uh what do you think it should include and how do you think it should look like?
00:30:57
Tim maybe you can start. >> Sure. Well, um, the first thing I would say is while this is a very important
00:31:03
technology, might be used in lots of ways, we want to be sure that the regulation
00:31:11
we develop does not undermine our existing markets. The securities and derivatives markets that we have and and
00:31:20
the uh equity and debt markets that we have are so important to the to the world, not just to the US economy.
00:31:28
They're very very large $120 trillion market cap uh securities alone. Um and
00:31:36
when I say undermine, what I mean is we don't want to rewrite the securities laws in ways that
00:31:43
undermine a framework that's been developed very thoughtfully and carefully over a hundred years. Uh we
00:31:49
don't need to create, you know, a lot of exceptions uh to promote the technology.
00:31:54
We want techn technologically neutral rules but you know again uh we need to be careful. So the three things we need
00:32:02
to do are I think one create a framework for regulation for what we typically call the spot market in digital tokens
00:32:15
that are not securities to the extent they're financial instruments. Number two, provide greater clarity as to how
00:32:24
we regulate tokens, whether they should be regulated as securities or not. And you know, the SEC is working on that
00:32:31
today. And that's not a something that can be easily defined in a statute in a
00:32:36
couple of paragraphs because it depends on does the token represent an interest in the business, is there a capital
00:32:43
raising going on, how might the token change over time, things like that. And the third thing we need to do is again
00:32:52
make sure our rules on things like how you tokenize assets and how you keep records and how you custody uh tokens
00:33:02
and how clearance and settlement works. We want to make sure our rules work for this technology. Again, they shouldn't
00:33:09
be promoting it excessively, but they shouldn't be inhibiting it either. Jessica.
00:33:17
>> Um yeah, I I agree that is a that is a great vision and that that is absolutely
00:33:21
where where we want to get. Um uh I will just bring up the um the case of the exchange traded fund. So that was a case
00:33:31
where there was an innovation and it it solved a very real problem and now these
00:33:35
are very a very important part of our financial system and this is a completely different situation but I
00:33:42
think it's it is similar in the sense that we've seen an innovation and it
00:33:46
exists to solve problems that actually people have and they like it for that reason. So a path towards bringing this
00:33:55
into the regulatory system I think is key and um I think that the the three elements which probably will involve
00:34:04
some kind of temporary relief as is what's happened with ETFs um that that will probably be part of it. Um also you
00:34:12
know the the sort of chicken and egg problem. Um and I think if if these three elements are solved I think we'll
00:34:19
be on our way. One of them is decentralization. Um, one is uh the the the fact that non-securities and
00:34:27
securities are going to be traded together. That ties very intimately into this question of the fact that um the
00:34:33
CFTC currently does not have the authority to act as a regulator in the same sense as the SEC over um
00:34:40
nonsecurity markets. Um and uh lastly, you know, what do you do about the fact that these are um you know, the
00:34:48
unregistered trading on nonregistered ex platforms? Um so I think solving those three pieces which will involve
00:34:57
some tricky line drawing at least in the short run. Um that's what I would like
00:35:03
to see. >> Yeah. Yeah, and if I could just add maybe a word on the decentralization
00:35:08
point um because I agree that is one of the aspects of the technology that is quite novel quite interesting and the
00:35:17
question though is what do we really mean by decentralization and what is truly decentralized finance? Um clearly
00:35:25
if you have software protocol that operates autonomously that people can use on their own without going through
00:35:32
an intermediary you would call that decentralized. But what we actually see in the world is
00:35:40
a lot of what even commissioner Hester Pur who's quite sympathetic to the crypto industry recently called Dino
00:35:46
decentralized and name only. uh because you have that protocol but then you have
00:35:51
a business that's facilitating how people use it or a business that's administering or maintaining that and
00:35:58
and that's where it's important to I think take the position that look decentralization doesn't equate to a
00:36:06
regulatory pass. We have to think about what is the activity that's taking place
00:36:12
and how do we achieve the same regulatory objectives. Now, maybe some of those objectives we don't worry
00:36:18
about. If I'm custodying my own assets, then maybe I don't worry about, you
00:36:23
know, what someone might do with them because I'm holding on to them. But, you
00:36:29
know, we still want market integrity. We still want to prevent fraud and manipulation. And it's not the case that
00:36:36
just because it involves some kind of autonomous software that we should say, okay, no regulation. We just have to
00:36:43
figure out who are the actors who are in a position to meet some of our regulatory objectives and how do we meet
00:36:50
those. >> Yeah, those are great points and uh certainly the issue of decentralization
00:36:56
is central uh to this uh fintech revolution and digital assets uh more generally. Uh and this is certainly
00:37:06
something to to think about how the financial system is going to look like going forward and how decentralized it's
00:37:11
going to be. But yeah, I think we have to to stop here. So, thank you very much Tim and Jessica for this very thoughtful
00:37:18
conversation on regulation and decentralized finance, digital assets, how regulation is affecting the
00:37:24
innovation and what we should expect from regulation uh going forward. As I mentioned, we have been discussing these
00:37:30
issues in the Walton initiative on financial policy and regulation whiffer and we have a few white papers that have
00:37:37
been commissioned to talk about regulation uh in this uh space and there's certainly a lot uh to think
00:37:43
about here and we will continue the discussion of uh digital assets in uh other episodes uh of this uh future
00:37:52
finance uh podcast. So uh thank you everyone for listening. >> Thank you. Thank you.