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What does a day on the internet look like? You've got viral videos. You've got influencers that are posting content daily.
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There's a movie or a TV show releases a trailer that drives 100 million views in the first couple of days.
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You've got all this news and content that people are consuming, and it's all built on entertainment, right?
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You can't just be entertaining for a brand. We need to be entertaining in the way that competes with all of the true entertainment that's on the platform.
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Hello, and welcome. You're listening to Marketing Matters on the Wharton Podcast Network.
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This is our weekly podcast where we analyze the latest in advertising, marketing, customer behavior, new product launches, branding, retailing, everything marketing.
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I'm Barbara Kahn, the Patty and J.H. Baker Professor of Marketing, and I'm joined by my co-host, Americus Reid, the Whitney M.
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Young Jr. Professor of Marketing, and the brand Identity Theorist. And today, we are very happy to be joined by Greg Foss, who's the Vice President of Marketing at Liquid Death.
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I'm sure everybody knows Liquid Death now. Liquid Death is a company known for its edgy and unconventional approach to marketing bottled water, and now some other products too.
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As VP of Marketing, Foss has played a pivotal role in shaping the brand's unique identity and driving its rapid growth in the beverage industry.
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His innovative strategies have helped Liquid Death stand out in a crowded market and make it a household name.
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Before Liquid Death, Foss was at MeUndies, which I would like to talk about as well, where he did a lot of brand growth there and customer engagement.
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And he has a business degree in marketing from our colleagues at USC. Hello, Greg, and welcome to the show.
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Not at USC, did you say? No? Where? I don't know. You're mistaken about everything was right, except for the- Up for USC, that's definitely what the internet said.
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So where did you actually go? Oh, yeah. No, I actually studied economics at the University of Colorado in Boulder.
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Oh, wow. Where did I get that? That's a whole different person. Well, I'm glad you're at Colorado because that goes with your background in- Yeah.
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...boarding, right? What kind of spot was in California? USC, nothing. Yeah, no, it's funny.
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I actually only took two marketing classes my entire college career. Oh, so it's not just Colorado versus California.
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You actually know nothing about marketing. Well, I mean, I took two courses. When I studied abroad in Australia, I took green marketing and internet marketing, which ended up being pretty valuable to me at Liquid Death.
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But other than that, no, I come in with a real outsider's perspective to marketing, which I think is something that's helped propel me in my career in these disruptive brands that I've been at, right?
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Now, I have learned by doing, for the most part. Do I wish that I had some more of the real education, probably, but- I mean, I think as an economist, Greg, that you certainly appreciate the idea of what's required to take something that could be characterized as a commodity, like water, and making it different, like Barbara's point.
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How do you take something that lots of people can create and put in a bottle or put in a can or whatever, and how can you stand out?
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So I'm sure that's not lost on you. Yeah. And you obviously have what? I'm not going to trust the internet for any of this.
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How many years have you been working? How many years were you at MeUndies before you came to, and how many years are you at?
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Yeah, so it's funny. I've been at two commodity brands for most of my career. Underwear and water are two very essential products.
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And so yeah, I think maybe I have a type. I don't know. I'm not sure a lot of people say water and underwear are a type, but okay.
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From a commodity perspective, from a necessity perspective, I think most people would agree they're necessities.
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Yes, hopefully. But yeah, no, I was actually the second employee at MeUndies, and so I joined there when there was really just three people in a room.
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And it was a really cut-your-teeth type of experience right out of the gate for me.
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Where I was leading all of our social, I was helping with print designs on the underwear, all of our earned media strategy and PR.
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And then I was also doing things on the operations side, like I answered every single customer service email and phone call and live chat that we got, right?
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And so I had a really broad range of... I bet your dad was really good for market research, actually.
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I know what your point was, but actually having that interaction with your customers was probably really helpful.
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Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, it was the day-to-day interactions with customers where that's how I kind of honed in on the voice of the brand.
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Interesting. Exactly. Speaking to them, and I'm like, oh, this is a really personal way to talk about underwear, which hadn't really been a thing before, right?
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You were going to a department store and buying a package of underwear, and then you weren't really talking to anyone.
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You just kind of took it home and however it fit and however it was, that was what it was.
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And so that helped kind of shape those customer service conversations early on, shaped the brand voice and create this more approachable brand with MeUndies that kind of was encouraging people to talk about their underwear and have it not be the taboo thing that no one ever mentioned.
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And yeah, I think it's funny, Liquid Death and MeUndies are so different in so many ways, but they were really built on this earn media and creative strategy placed on top of these necessity products, underwear or water that people really need, but that there wasn't any fun being had in those areas, right?
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And so we really utilize earn media. How can we drive conversation, get people talking about their underwear to- So before you tell us about that specifically, I want to talk about Liquid Death in particular, because it was started by Mike.
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You weren't the founder and the guy who started it was really into advertising and he kind of had an out of the box way of thinking about marketing water.
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I mean, it was not just the idea of Liquid Death, it was also doing it in cans, as I understand, like it was a really big deal to move from bottle to cans.
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And that was part of the initial change. But you came to Liquid Death on December, is this right?
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December 1st, 2020. Is that true? Yes, yes. It's my birthday. So like I remember that date.
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Like that's a very good date to start a company, start a company. But I'm curious to know, like, what was it like when you got there?
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What was the expectation? You know, because it had been going on for a while. So what was your charge?
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Yeah. So, you know, the team was really small still at that point. We were I think I was like the 38th employee, I think, at the time.
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And and, you know, it was a lot, you know, a lot of that was operations and less on the marketing side of things.
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Mike, you know, he's a creative advertising genius. He was writing the commercials.
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He was writing all the social captions. He was doing the posting on Organic. You know, he was he was doing it all essentially from like a brand perspective.
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And then there was a team that was doing some of like the e-commerce work, because that's when I joined, we were not on shelf.
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Right. We were really only in a couple at the time. But but all the yeah, the bulk of the bulk of the bulk of the sales were coming through LiquidDeath.com, including the beverage.
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Right. And so when I started, Mike and I talked about this at, you know, you know, in probably my first touch base, which was, hey, we've got this amazing, hilarious brand.
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It's we have this really, you know, engaged core customer. How do we you know, how do we build this brand for the masses without losing the soul and like losing the humor and the edge that we had?
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Right. And so that was kind of my my directive. And it feels like five years has just flown by since since that first conversation.
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But but yeah, it was how do we build this for the mainstream audience so that we could start to break into retailers?
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And then and then also, how do we compete with the the really big beverage brands out there that spend, you know, billions on marketing and media that we will never be able to compete with that type of media spend?
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So how do we how do we gain the type of awareness that we need to compete with those with those those big players without having to spend the money?
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And so that's where I brought in that that earned media strategy, which, you know, Mike comes from a background of, you know, he was at CPB.
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Right. He understands the power of creating marketing that's, you know, used to drive headlines and get people talking.
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So it wasn't new to him. I think that's what he admired about my experience. Crispin Porter.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like an incredibly creative advertising agency. They did all the amazing Burger King ads, I think.
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Right. And so so he was you know, he wanted to build the liquid death brand using earned media and using creative.
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And that's that's what I brought from from me on days. I think that's what he was he was attracted to it in me as a as a potential fit for the brand.
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So so, yeah, we just started building this this editorial calendar of content. Right.
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From the moment I got there. Hey, let's consistently put out something that has the ability to, you know, win the Internet the day that we launch it.
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Right. Let's launch something. Let's try to get ourselves on occasion. That sounds like a great goal.
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But how do you accomplish that? Win the Internet like that's that's kind of how to.
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Yeah, well, I mean, I think you you you are distilling it like a lot of brand campaigns.
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They're trying to do so many things. Right. And I think for us, we were distilling it down into like one, you know, short term goal, which is, hey, can we just be the best thing someone sees on the Internet that day?
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Right. And if we and if we can if we can do that, right, then then people will want to share it.
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People press will want to write about it and we'll be able to drive as much awareness and exposure to the brand that these massive, you know, the Cokes and Pepsis of the world were having to pay, pay all that money to get in front of.
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Right. So that that was the strategy. Right. Like use our creative and our ability to move fast and not behave like a big traditional brand to, you know, I just have to win the Internet like I would like to do that, too.
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But I don't know how to do that like that. How do you know how to do that? Well, yeah, I mean, I think it's it comes from first under like getting out of just like being a brand and just understanding what what are people consuming on the Internet?
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Right. Like what what is the day on the Internet look like? You've got viral, you know, videos, you know, home videos that come out.
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You've got you know, you've got you've got influencers that are posting content daily.
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There's, you know, a movie or a TV show releases a trailer that drives 100 million views in the first couple of days.
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You've got all this news and content that people are consuming and it's all built on entertainment.
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Right. And I think as soon as brand for us, we always said, hey, like you can't just be entertaining for a brand like we need to be entertaining in the in the way that competes with all the true entertainment that's on the platforms.
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And if we can meet people where they are and give them something that they're actually on social for, then then we have a really good chance of getting there.
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And then, yeah, I think as far as like how it how it comes together, I mean, we are we have this this concept of of 360 comedy.
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Right. Where I, Americans, I don't know if you if you've heard us talk about that before, but this idea of 360 comedy is like it's not just a funny commercial.
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Right. Right. It's it's this really funny, shareable piece of content that actually ties back to a real product or an experience that people can can buy into go in person.
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Right. And it's making something real. Right. That feels like it should be fake.
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That's I think the the that's where we've kind of cracked the code with with how the Internet.
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Right. It's it's getting people to to stop in their tracks when they're scrolling and be like, wait, I've never seen anything like this before.
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Is this real? Yeah. And then find out it is. Right. That's that's where we really hit that magic.
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And I think that's something that, you know, the reason we're able to do that as a brand is because when Mike started this thing, the product itself was that 360 comedy.
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Right. Like the can really is a piece of true contemporary art in that there should have been there should have never been a water called Liquid Death that looks like a beer.
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Right. That feels like fake gag product. It feels like an SNL skit. Right. But then you can actually buy it and you can actually go find it on the shelves.
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And so now we're doing the same thing over and over again. But with new unexpected partners and new ideas and new limited edition products that you would never think of.
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Right. And it it all started with the can that Mike came up with that. Yeah. Yeah.
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Gives us the ability to go and do that. Yeah. I love that point because it's making me think a little bit, Barbara, of Andy Warhol.
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And, you know, the iconic symbol, ladies and gentlemen, the iconic symbol. But I want to touch base and build a little bit deeper what Barbara mentioned, though, because she actually pointed something that's very interesting here, which is the potential difficulty in replicating this over and over and over again.
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You got to be super creative. I think that's her point. Say, listen, you can't just come out here and just like, OK, we're going to just copy some memes and do something like that.
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You have to be sort of like the thought leader in creating this type of stuff. And so I'm thinking that if that's the premise, that must mean that you have to hire people that all share a kind of creative impetus to be able to plug into this energy to create this kind of collateral day in and day out.
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Yeah, I can literally see that. Like, you know, we're all going over the conversation.
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What did anybody see that was interesting today on the Internet and talking it out and like trying to come up with something?
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Is that a little bit how the creative process unfolds or is it somehow different?
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Um, it's it's actually a bit different than that, because I think like we're not trying to.
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Yeah, we're actually I mean, yeah, you're you're you're right for part of it. But but in practice, it's a little different than that, because we're not just looking at what's being posted on the Internet day to day to try to pull inspiration, because then it won't feel truly unexpected.
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Right. Like, you know, as consumers of the Internet, yes, like we are influenced by that.
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We can see really funny things that that gives us the reminder that like we have a high bar to hit, but we're not using that content to influence our own necessarily.
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We're actually pulling from and this goes back to like Mike's founding roots of the brand.
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We're actually pulling from this this feeling that like most people actually hate marketing.
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Right. And and you guys are marketers. You teach you teach it as well. And and it's funny.
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It's like there's this distrust from a lot of people, you know, in the general public of corporate marketing.
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And so what we have done is we found, you know, we we take inspiration if it's from any content.
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It's from it's from the most common advertising tropes. Right. That are that exist that we've seen in ads.
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And then we kind of flip those on its head. Right. And the people and the team that we use to do that, they're not traditional advertisers.
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Right. They're not advertising professional necessarily. Right. Yes. Mike came from that world and our VP of creative also came from that world.
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But the entire team, they actually they do like a writer's room the same way that you would you would do on SNL.
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Yeah. And the people that are in that room that that work for Liquid Death, they don't come from these traditional advertising backgrounds.
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And so they're coming at it from a lens of of real entertainment. There's, you know, our creative director.
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He is the creator and writer of an adult swim cartoon called Mr. Pickles. That was super successful.
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Right. And most would never touch with a 10 foot pole. Right. He's in the room coming up with content.
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You know, one of our lead copywriters, you know, grew up touring in a punk band and wrote for the Onion.
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Right. So like these are the. That's very cool. Yeah. And then and then, you know, we've got this this network of comedians that we also tap into for for all sorts of things.
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Punch ups ideas. They'll come into the into the room with us and and talk through like talk through, you know, how we can win the Internet.
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Right. And I think when you have people like that who don't have the background of marketing to kind of box them in, it allows it allows these types of.
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You know, you are stating a hypothesis, which is the way to win the Internet is to be funny.
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So that seems to be a core tenant of your humor. Humor is. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
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And also, it's really interesting, Barbara and Greg, because tell me if this is true or not, because you you mentioned this word mistrust.
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Is humor a way to kind of smooth over what might be kind of this latent fatigue of marketing is, you know, manipulative and we don't want to see it.
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It sucks. They're selling us stuff. And the way that you can kind of overcome that mistrust is like you'd be really funny and authentic, but authentically funny.
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And then people feel good again. And then they're sort of like open to be entertained more and open to sort of get the message about the brand and so on.
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Is that part of what's going on here? I think so. Yeah. I mean, look, I think if you think about about social, right, because that's the platform for all of this for us is, you know, the way most people are on social is they're scrolling through it.
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They're finding things that they find really entertaining. And then when they find something really great, they share it with their friends.
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They DM it to them. They're sharing it to their story, right? Because they want to show their their own personal community something really funny that they found.
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And it's a reflection of them as a human being to make their friends laugh with this thing that they found.
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It is a feedback loop that comes from sharing. Yeah. Reflection of them as a human being.
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I'll double click on that, Barbara, but you know where I'm going. But anyway, please continue, Greg.
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For us, we realize that's how a lot of this behavior is going. And so, hey, if we can put out something that is truly funny on social, then and we can get someone to actually want to share our branded content with their friends because they want to show, hey, look at this really funny thing that I found that I think is funny.
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And it's a reflection of them, you know, that can actually make this make this travel.
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Right. And so that really is the core. It's the core engagement metric that we look at for everything is like, what is the share rate out of all the people that have watched this?
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How many of them have actually shared it with their friend or reposted it? Right.
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And that's what's most important here. And that's the metric that we look at, because it's what causes that exponential awareness that that we've been able to drive.
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And, you know, we've used the power of of of, you know, Internet humor and these these funny, you know, hilarious piece of content.
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Like Jonah Berger would call that social proof because you want to. So would Robert Cialdini as well.
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Yeah. You want to get credit for the funny thing. So you see something funny and you want to.
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Right. Exactly. It's it's it's part it's part of human nature. It's why it's why social work works this way.
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And we've figured we've figured that out and we've tapped into it to the to the point where those shares over the course of of a five year span exponentially have led Liquid Death to have, you know, some of the same levels of of unaided brand awareness as some of the biggest beverage brands out there.
00:20:47
That's some of your new campaigns. Maybe you could walk us through it. So like there is one you're doing recently with the boys, I think, and Vice President Ashley Barrett.
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Is that one? Yeah. So why don't you just like give us an example how this came about with what the story is behind this one?
00:21:02
So the boys is actually one of our longest standing partnerships. We try to keep things unexpected at Liquid Death, as you know.
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And so going back to the same partners multiple times has been, you know, not like we've done it very rarely.
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Right. But with the boys, it's it's kind of the perfect entertainment partner for us because they have this this world that they've built that, you know, is obviously a fantasy world.
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They're superheroes that exist, but it's it's modeled after our own society in a really interesting way.
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And and because our our core product is this, you know, art piece in it in itself that feels like it could it doesn't really it shouldn't really exist in our in our world here.
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It can for sure exist in the boys world right in a way that most other brands wouldn't.
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And just and plus, there's the fact that, you know, the boys is if you've ever watched it.
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I don't know if you guys have have watched the show. It's gory. It's you know, it's it's over the top in that regard.
00:22:07
And they you know, we are a brand that's not afraid to work with with properties like that.
00:22:12
Right. And so because they've had this this like kind of parody of our of our world, we can make jokes that make fun of advertising through their characters and through their their their superheroes.
00:22:26
Right. And and so it's it's actually it's it's one of the more brilliant things that we've done here because we can make an ad that is like a traditional ad.
00:22:37
Right. Like she's doing a walk and talk of our new sparkling energy line. Right.
00:22:41
Well done, sir. Yeah, well played. And and and, you know, she's doing this walk and talk where she's just talking about, you know, the the product attributes.
00:22:52
Right. In a way that many brands have done before, but she is doing it from the place of a vice president.
00:23:00
Right. Who is now doing this like government sponsored ad for a product. And because of that, it's it's built into the entertainment.
00:23:08
And so we're able to disguise like this amazing product product ad as entertainment.
00:23:15
And I think that's where the the beauty has come from these boys commercials that we've done.
00:23:20
We did another one for a flavored sparkling a couple of years ago with one of their other characters, the deep.
00:23:25
And then, you know, a year or two before that, we did one for our for our main Mountain Water products with also with the deep.
00:23:33
And so, yeah, it's been a really great way for us to, you know, flex our our creative brains and make something that feels like bonus content to the show that the fans really love.
00:23:45
But then all those fans now know that our energy drink has 100 milligrams of caffeine.
00:23:51
It's more sensible. It's not going to explode your head or it might not explode your head.
00:23:54
Right. And and, you know, I think that's that's the beauty of what we're doing. Because when you were promoting water in the beginning, you didn't have to explain that to anybody.
00:24:06
You know, people know what water is. Now you're moving to a cat to a different product where actually it has other attributes like water has no attributes.
00:24:15
So you can spend the whole time on packaging and crazy ads and stuff. But your goal now is twofold, right?
00:24:21
Because you do want to still win the Internet because that's your whole marketing where you do it.
00:24:27
But now you have these attributes. You have to build into the story. It's adding another constraint.
00:24:32
That's just it's it's another constraint. But but it also is like, I don't know, we use we use all of these these things as just another like tool or lever.
00:24:44
It's like once you have this idea of 100 milligrams, it's like, oh, it won't explode your head.
00:24:49
And then you can create something off of that idea. Right. So, you know, we're always using this type of logic and we work it into something really entertaining.
00:24:58
And as look as long as it's not as long as it doesn't feel like something you've seen before.
00:25:04
Right. As long as there's still tension and as long as you still have a great hook in the first three to five seconds of that piece of content that gets people to say, wait, wait, what what is this?
00:25:13
What what am I about to see? You know, you can you can talk about product attributes in a way that it's still really shareable and funny.
00:25:21
And, you know, when you look at this this boy's commercial, we're talking about attributes the whole time.
00:25:27
And it's got, you know, almost 20000 shares in just a few days. Right. And yeah, find another commercial that that has that type of shareability, you know, and to build on that point as well.
00:25:39
I think there is a premise that says, as you are delivering information about the product product attributes is Barbara saying levels of, you know, caffeine, et cetera, because the person is so highly entertained, they're processing that information in a really different way as compared to if they felt like they walked in and said, OK, here comes an ad.
00:25:58
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Your defenses would be up. Yeah, exactly. So it's really fascinating.
00:26:03
There's all kinds of psychology going on here. It's really, really fascinating. Yeah.
00:26:07
Yeah. I mean, look, we're we're, you know, when we were a water when we were really focused on water, it was never about what was in the can.
00:26:17
Right. It was it was all an emotional connection. Right. Yeah. But there were rational you know, there were rational reasons why people were were buying it.
00:26:27
There was. It's an infinitely recyclable can. Right. We're burning plastic bottles.
00:26:32
Yes. That comes from a real mountain source. It's not just purified tap water like a lot of other brands out there.
00:26:39
And so, you know, there are these rational things. And I think we're you know, there's there's more rational reasons why our energy is more is a is a better for you option and a lot of the other things on the market.
00:26:51
But we still need to lead with that emotional connection. Right. And so as long as we can lead with emotional and have the rational, you know, the rational purchase reasons to believe underneath, that's that's the key for us.
00:27:04
This is awesome. Real quick. I'm sorry, Barbara. Just one quick thing. Sorry. I apologize.
00:27:08
Apologies because Barbara's Barbara's running the show here. We do a check in with all of our marketing guests to see what their point of view is with respect to bringing in these A.I. tools into the internal process of marketing.
00:27:22
I'm wondering what's your point of view? What's Liquid Death's point of view? Are they and we don't touch that stuff because that's making stuff up.
00:27:28
We're too creative. We want to make it real. We want to develop it. We'll never touch the A.I. stuff.
00:27:33
Or what's what's your point of view on using these kinds of tools internally? Yeah, I mean, it it I, you know, personally, at least I do use these tools to make my life easier when it comes to like analyzing large sets of social content data.
00:27:51
Right. Things like like that that would normally take me hours can now run in the background and then I can review the findings.
00:27:58
Right. But I think and that that I find to be very, very useful. And it's a really great research tool for me.
00:28:07
And we have, you know, on the creative side, we've experimented with it here and there.
00:28:12
I think for us, like we we love the art. Right. That that goes into the stuff that we're making.
00:28:20
And, you know, we are going to continue to be, you know, human made in that sense, because I think there's there's a level of nuance to all the to all the amazing work that we're doing on the creative side that I think does not translate well from from the world of A.I. But but, yeah, as as a testing tool, as a as a research tool, I find it very, very helpful.
00:28:48
I was hoping for that answer. Weren't you? Me, too. I was praying for that answer.
00:28:52
Yes. And I think we we actually, you know, from our side, I think we if there's a way to to use it for for comedy's sake, right, or to make fun of it.
00:29:03
Right. Like we're always trying. Oh, yeah. Ah, yeah, that would be really funny.
00:29:10
That would be really funny. Yeah, I won't say that we would never use. I won't say that we would never use it.
00:29:16
Right. It's just we haven't we haven't like a funny way to use it. Yeah. Yeah. Use it.
00:29:21
Yeah. Use it in a way to make fun of it. That would be really incredible. Well, you know what?
00:29:26
We're out of time here. And we really loved having you on the show. So where can people go to find out with?
00:29:33
I know there's another campaign we didn't get to talk about. You have some kind of Pop Tarts campaign.
00:29:37
Yeah, yeah. It's another another another product that that feels like it shouldn't exist, but it does.
00:29:45
Exactly. And that's a good collaboration. So where can our listeners go to find out more about some of the fun things you're doing?
00:29:52
Yeah. I mean, look, I think LinkedIn, I'm always sharing all of our recent campaigns on LinkedIn.
00:29:58
You can follow follow the brand on Instagram and TikTok. Definitely is the best best place to find everything that we're doing.
00:30:07
And then, yeah, keep an eye out for it for us on the shelf at your local grocery stores or convenience stores.
00:30:12
And yeah, we're always coming out with new, interesting limited edition flavors.
00:30:17
So just keep an eye out for what's new out there. I love that. Love it. Yeah, that would be a great way to keep up with it.
00:30:23
But well, Greg Foss, Vice President of Marketing at Liquid Death. Thank you so much for joining us today.
00:30:30
And that's all we have time for. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week.
00:30:34
Till then, this has been Marketing Matters on the Wharton Podcast Network. I'm Barbara Kahn here with Americus Reid.