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[Music]
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[Music]
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uh I'd like to talk through some of the
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chapters uh uh uh that you have in your
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book uh uh and and some of the things
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that social entrepreneurs should be
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thinking about so to to begin with u you
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recommend that social entrepreneurs need
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to articulate the problem uh that they
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are trying to solve as well as a
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solution that they propose to offer
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could you take us through some of the
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steps that they should go through to do
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that um what we try to do is push people
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in into Thinking Beyond just sort of a
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high level problem there's a problem of
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nutrition or there's a problem of
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education and begin to think a little
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bit about what it is that the uh the
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so-called beneficiaries of this program
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are going to actually receive and and
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what the problem is from their
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perspective and whether they recognize
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that they have a problem so for instance
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in one of the projects in you relate to
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this thing mul in in India was the the
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concept of taking saet of disinfectant
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and distributing it in villages where
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the uh the water was unhygienic and
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people were subject to all sort of dis
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dentry type diseases gastric diseases
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and high death rates and so on when you
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arrive in the
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village it's not evident to the people
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in that Village who have very little
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education that the the connection
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between the diuretic diseases and the
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water and if you tell them that the
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water's bad and they can't see the
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microbes or bacteria in that they just
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don't believe you so you know it's
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really important to understand the
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problem not just from the point of view
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of the benefactor but also from the
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point of view of the
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beneficiary and so what we do in the
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book is we start to give them very
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systematic ways of beginning to unfold
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uh what the problem is in the eyes of
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the in the eyes of the person who's
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supposed to benefit one other chapter in
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your book refers to uh the need to
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segment the target population uh I Jim I
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wonder if you could help explain expl
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how that this process should
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work um ml mentioned in his M to your
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question M mentioned in in his first
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response this idea of of finding you
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know a group of these beneficiaries or a
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segment of them that has a higher
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likelihood of early adoption of what it
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is you're trying to do than you know
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others
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perhaps and again in the spirit of
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uh efficient use of
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resources and learning and you know the
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reduction of of of of risk and
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uncertainty what we we spend an entire
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chapter doing is framing a method for
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segmenting the beneficiaries and you
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know it's some of the typical
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segmentation uh instruments geographic
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location gender all of that but then
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there are also behavioral segmentation
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issues so what we have is we have a
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frame work for people to use to segment
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their beneficiaries and then to select
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one with which to start and we
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articulate the you know the
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characteristics of a good uh wedge if
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you will um uh and and and hopefully a
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segment that that is most likely to
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adopt in the shortest space of time at
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the lowest cost and provides you know a
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high rate of learning so that's you know
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there's a whole chapter devoted to that
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now as Mac as you said before sometimes
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a seemingly wonderful idea leaves the
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beneficiaries cold and unresponsive uh
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uh why why does that happen and what
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could social entrepreneurs do to uh
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prevent their Enterprises from falling
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into that trap well you know the the the
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fundamental problem is that people come
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in with what I call the
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wild eyed Western solution to a problem
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where you you expecting behaviors to
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take place in in defiance almost of
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deep-seated cultural behaviors there's
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some things that you know you just don't
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do so one of the projects that we looked
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at when I was in uh Cape Town a couple
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of years ago was the whole idea of uh
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beginning to distribute uh tricycles
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three-wheel bicycles so that women
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instead of having to carry uh their
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crops to the market could actually pedal
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their crops to the market and that
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sounds like a wonderful idea but when
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you arrive with the bicycles you find
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out that the the men have decided that
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women should not ride bicycles that's
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something only a man's allowed to do so
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there you know by not paying attention
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to what the cultural factors are they
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just they just wasted their time and and
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it's that type of thing uh going in with
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uh condoms uh to try and prevent AIDS
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and you don't take into account the fact
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that uh in many of the African societies
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of
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fertility is extremely well regarded a
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fertile woman a woman must be fertile
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and then secondly the sexual behavior is
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not taken into account and this woman
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goes to her husband and says uh you know
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I expect you to use a condom you got to
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be kidding she can get thrown out of
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that house she can get sent back to her
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original family and and live the rest of
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her life in disgrace because her husband
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has banned her from his home you know so
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this lack of of cultural sensitivity is
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often a huge problem
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why is it important for social
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entrepreneurs to identify the most
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competitive alternatives to the idea
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that they're trying to propose uh and
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how can they use this information that
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they gather to make their own offering
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more
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valuable there's always a competitor mul
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as you know Ma alluded to it earlier
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even if it's what they're doing
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today and we stress this because it
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forces people and we've done this
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ourselves it forces people into that
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environment and to spend time with their
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you know the beneficiaries they have in
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mind and the communities at
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large and by mapping out what the
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nearest alternative is to what you know
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the team has in mind in effect we're
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forcing them
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to build insight into the realities of
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that you know sector of the population
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on the ground as it
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exists and so that's the first thing the
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second thing is it gives
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a a
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methodical uh manner with which to
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compare step by step the idea that a
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team has for a social entrepreneurship
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activity versus what exists on the
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ground or could exist on the ground
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and so we use that to force people to
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get the kind of information that they
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should have and then to have a a fairly
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hard look at what it is they propose and
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how it Compares from the beneficiaries
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perspective with what they're already
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doing Ma what operational issues uh do
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social entrepreneurs need to address
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before they can deliver their product or
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service this is so important that we
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actually have the uh the would be social
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entrepreneur develop what what we call a
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deliverables
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table uh where
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the you need to be very
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clearly focused on articulating every
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that the beneficiary must go through in
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order to receive a benefit and then
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think a little bit about what it's going
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to take for that benefit to take place
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so uh let's say youve got a program in
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which you're Distributing product to uh
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Village communities out you know out in
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the boonies as they say uh you can't
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just assume that there's going to be a
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transportation system that will deliver
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that stuff you have to think a little
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bit about not just how is the product
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going to be sold but how is the product
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going to be transported to where you
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want it sold how are we going to know
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that we need to send more do we have a
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logistical system in place because in in
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many of these uh situations there just
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isn't the infrastructure to do it so
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what we're looking at here is what's
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specific operations from the time that
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the beneficiary first becomes aware that
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they have a need and you can fix it uh
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through uh the final delivery and
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consumption of that uh benefit has to be
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documented and then you got to sit down
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and sort of say what physically must
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happen because uh if the system isn't
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there it just ain't going to
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happen here was one project I think just
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in terms to illustrate it they had a
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program in lutu uh in which they were
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going to deliver uh medicines by
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motorbike cuz luta's got very bad roads
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but you can go on motorbikes to many of
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these places so they built this whole
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program with uh you know uh dozens of
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motorbike Riders taking taking samples
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and taking medicines out to remote areas
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and everything went fine until the
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motorbike started breaking down and then
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they suddenly found out that there was
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no one there to repair the motorbox so
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what you now have is like a mountain of
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on used motor BS in that have basically
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just G to waste the the the the next
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question is actually for both of you uh
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one of the things I found Most
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Fascinating about your book is the
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examples that you give of two companies
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uh Zambia feeds and eota uh and how they
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went through the different steps that
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you've just outlined so could you tell
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the knowledge at Wharton audience about
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these two companies and what are the
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main lessons that other social
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entrepreneurs can learn from their
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experience
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Zambia feeds is is a company in the
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Northwestern part of Zambia that
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basically
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produces fairly high quality animal feed
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at uh relatively good prices and the
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company started uh back in 2000
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somewhere there um and has
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systematically uh
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built an alternative production system
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for poultry rearing in that
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region um at the end of last year they
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had
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nearly uh 2,000
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customers um producing fairly
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efficiently really high quality
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poultry um so of course this had to
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scale over more than a
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decade uh the first
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thing um when we learned of
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this
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uh
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that we did was to sit down with the
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entrepreneur and say all right what is
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success for you and uh how do you know
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when you've got there and as simple as
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that sounds turns out that a lot of
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folks don't really think like that the
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reason we did it was because of the huge
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uncertainty in the
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area and um we put in place a few
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parameters um
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that the team needed to to commit to uh
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um in order for us you know to continue
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working with them not that you know not
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to be arrogant but you know uh we we we
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didn't want to commit ourselves to a
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team of people that was going to use the
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conventional you know let's come up with
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a great idea raise the money and go and
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build it approach and fortunately uh the
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team over there did um now we can't take
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all the credit we were working with a
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social entrepreneur from that
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environment and she had done this before
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not this kind of activity but she'd been
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in in in Commerce before so uh they
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started small you know as the book is
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the pick your segments geographic
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location accessibility Etc didn't buy
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news you know used equipment didn't buy
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buildings uh attended to the
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sociopolitics by starting it as an
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entrepreneurial venture within an
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existing company a big company that
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could provide some defense from
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interference and um they then spent the
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better part of of nearly seven years
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building an organization that
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systematically uh developed these new
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segments and in keeping with the
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philosophy of the book only began to ACR
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assets you know production assets when
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they needed to to ACR those uh th those
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assets to produce higher volumes at
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higher
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quality and fortunately for us that
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case was the first one we took on and
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it's been very very successful in fact
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they've impacted the the the whole
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industry in the country um to the degree
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where the entrepreneur when she retired
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last year was on the the national
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poultry Association uh
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board um and we use that case throughout
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the book as you know the kind of golden
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thread from the beginning through the
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end um as a way to show what was done
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um and it's it's the applicability of
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each of the tools and Frameworks to the
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case the other really interesting case
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you have is of a company called eota
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yeah uh can you tell us about that one
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too M do you want to take or eot was not
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something that we actually worked on but
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uh this was a project that one of the
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Warton students was involved in and uh
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when she took the course uh that we were
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teaching in entrepreneurship here uh
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what she did is start to bring to bear
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the whole concept that uh a gentleman
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called David Korea uh put together to
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provide sanitation
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facilities uh for people who you know
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were just basically using the streets
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and uh the interesting thing there is
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the is the segmentation of the markets
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because
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uh in adequate sanitation is a huge
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problem you know millions of people die
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every year under the age of five because
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of the diseases caused by inadequate
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sanitation and part of the challenge in
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the beginning was uh what we want to try
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to do is build these toilets which were
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you know
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functional uh and were senary but uh
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people were used to just using the
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streets and and uh and ditches and and
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things like that and uh you his problem
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is he had to charge money for them to
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use these toilets these facilities and
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people were basically thinking to
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themselves why the hell should I can pay
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we I can do it for nothing so the
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perceptual
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breakthrough uh was was enormous and so
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as he started to segment he had to think
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a little bit about make a distinction
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between the places where there many many
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people like in what they call the
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Estates which are basically the uh the
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slums in the east African towns uh where
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there were hundreds of thousands of
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people who were exposed to unsanitary
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conditions uh people in the towns were
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you had Municipal
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toilets uh but which were very very
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badly maintained and just basically not
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kept clean and and then people who could
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not just Avail themselves of uh you know
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uh kind of facilities uh at night where
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nobody could see them but uh uh and so
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as he started to focus in on which
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segment to go to he said let me try to
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find a place where uh people cannot uh
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you I cannot do it in in the open and
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then secondly where people do have some
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money and so the segment he chose was
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markets because people come to the
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markets they're there all day at the
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markets and uh and people who come to
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markets tend either to sell or to buy
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and that means they got some money and
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so he got the whole thing started by
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building in in in in market now the
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interesting thing about that particular
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project is that uh there were
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two what we call uh unexpected or out
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comes uh the first one was
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that these facilities that he built near
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the markets became attractive to women
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who were going to give birth to Children
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CU this was a place where you could go
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and give birth to your child and it was
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clean and it was sanitary and so it
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became a a birthing destination and not
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just a you know sort of defecation
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destination and so there was an
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unexpected consequence of what they were
00:17:25
trying to do and uh the uh the other
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thing that they found is that uh the
00:17:31
places where there were congregations of
00:17:33
people with money uh were not only just
00:17:36
markets but also Shel bus bus shelters
00:17:40
places where buses congregated because
00:17:42
large numbers of people go backwards and
00:17:44
forwards all the time uh catching buses
00:17:47
to and from the town and so they in a
00:17:50
way discovered what the true segment was
00:17:52
for that particular form of Enterprise
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uh neither of which had been anticipated
00:17:57
in the beginning beginning but
00:17:59
fortunately he didn't go and build you
00:18:01
know a huge network of uh of toilets
00:18:04
which no one was going to
00:18:06
use that's a great example and and so to
00:18:09
end you know I I I
00:18:11
wonder what would you like knowledge at
00:18:14
Warton readers and viewers to do uh to
00:18:17
participate in your project uh so that
00:18:20
you you can move it on to the next
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phase Jim what do you want when did you
00:18:25
go
00:18:26
yeah firstly read it um
00:18:31
we we've taken a slightly different
00:18:33
approach in the publication of this book
00:18:35
as you know um there's this
00:18:38
ebook uh that's going out pre-launch of
00:18:41
the full book and what we're trying to
00:18:44
do is use it you know in the spirit of
00:18:47
uh of of the approach of the book you
00:18:50
know start small uh and and change fast
00:18:55
is we'd like to get responses from
00:18:57
readers out there and we're going to use
00:19:01
those not every response but we're going
00:19:03
to use those
00:19:05
responses
00:19:07
to tweak if you will the balance of the
00:19:10
book uh pre final
00:19:12
publication um in October November this
00:19:16
year and the third thing is spread the
00:19:19
word uh you know if if any of our
00:19:23
readers uh are in the space you know use
00:19:27
the book to spread the word and if any
00:19:28
of our readers know people in this space
00:19:31
uh please get the book out there um we
00:19:34
think it'll be useful and everybody
00:19:36
we've tested it with has found it very
00:19:38
very useful in the field nonprofit or
00:19:41
for-profit so hopefully our readers can
00:19:44
help us do that Ma any final words yeah
00:19:47
you know the basic strategy at the
00:19:49
moment is is our ebooks a free book we
00:19:52
want to we want to give anybody access
00:19:55
to it if they want to download the first
00:19:57
piece which is the due diligence piece
00:19:59
which will help people really think
00:20:01
through if they want to do something
00:20:02
that's going to do some good out there
00:20:04
and increasingly people want to do that
00:20:06
particularly the younger
00:20:07
generation so uh the idea is that if you
00:20:11
if you know of anybody who might be
00:20:15
interested just send them the the uh the
00:20:17
address the the URL and they can
00:20:19
download it it's theirs we don't want to
00:20:21
make money out of this uh what we want
00:20:23
to do is is is have impact and uh uh
00:20:28
you know anybody who you know who's
00:20:32
making charitable contributions and may
00:20:36
be a little concerned about how well
00:20:38
those contributions are being spent and
00:20:41
dispersed uh send them the the ebook and
00:20:43
they can have a look at it because if
00:20:46
I'm I mean I make donations uh I want to
00:20:48
be able to think that my donations are
00:20:50
being spent well rather than you know
00:20:53
just spent uh squandered and uh the uh
00:20:58
the idea would be is that anybody who's
00:21:01
making donations today might want to
00:21:02
have a look at it and then challenge the
00:21:04
people to whom they're making it
00:21:06
donations to see whether they're in fact
00:21:07
following the disciplines we suggest uh
00:21:10
to me this is not a popularity contest
00:21:13
you know we're not there to be popular
00:21:14
we there to have impact right well ma
00:21:18
Jim thank you so much for speaking with
00:21:20
knowledge at whorton yeah thank you uh
00:21:23
was good to chat to
00:21:27
you
00:21:29
[Music]
