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this podcast is brought to you by knowah
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[Music]
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Warton hello my name is Stephanie Cy and
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I'm an assistant professor of management
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at the Wharton School of the University
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of Pennsylvania and I'm delighted to
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welcome you to today's episode of the
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knowledge at Warton leading diversity at
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work podcast series which is focused on
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uncovering culture in the workplace
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joining me today are two very special
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guests first we have Kenji yino who is
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the Chief Justice Earl Warren professor
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of constitutional law at NYU School of
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Law and the faculty director of the
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Meltzer Center for diversity inclusion
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and belonging at NYU he specializes in
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constitutional law anti-discrimination
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law and law in literature in 2013
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professor yino and deoy published a
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landmark study uncovering talent to
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surface the organizational challenges of
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covering This research and the topic of
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today's podcast draw on the insights
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from Professor Yo's 2006 book which is
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called covering the hidden assault on
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our civil rights and we'll talk a lot
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more about covering what that means what
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it looks like who does it in just a few
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moments but I'd like to also introduce
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our second guest today next we have
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Joanne Stefan who is executive director
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of deo's Dei Institute for more than 25
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years Joanne has worked with seite
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Executives to Define design and
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operationalize their Workforce
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experience Vision she helps clients
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transform their talent in HR
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organizations and their strategy through
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implementation and Beyond to achieve
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sustainable results Joanne also leads
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deo's ushr strategy and solutions Talent
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Group in the HR transformation service
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offering and is the chief Dei officer
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officer of deo's us human capital
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practice welcome Kenji and Joanne so
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delighted to have you with me today for
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a conversation on uncovering culture so
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this is the title of a of a new report
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that was just released that you both
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co-authored um and it's in collaboration
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with the Meltzer Center for dersa
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inclusion and belonging at NYU School of
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Law and deoy and so I actually just want
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to start us off by talking about this
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concept of covering and I think a good
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way to enter into to it is to turn to
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Kenji to tell us a little bit about uh
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the Genesis of This research uh for him
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I I know of the work from the book uh
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covering in 2006 but can you just give
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us a brief definition of what covering
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means who does it and just a couple of
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insights um that you had in 2006 that
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perhaps evolved to
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2013 yes absolutely so first of all
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Stephanie I want to thank you than you
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so much uh for having us on today uh
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you're uh such a star in the field and I
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have huge admiration for you so it's
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such a honor and privilege to be with
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you so to begin actually the levie
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article and no one reads L riew articles
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but you know I I have to say that the
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larv article version of covering was
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published in 2002 so this idea has now
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been kicking around for a couple of
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decades uh you're right that it sort of
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made its way into the mainstream with
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the 200 six book in that book I define
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covering as a strategy through which
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individuals with known Outsider
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identities you know uh modulate or edit
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their identities in order to blend into
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the mainstream so what would examples of
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this be this is the you know black
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individual who straightens her hair so
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that she'll be seen as more professional
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uh this is a gay man who says I'm not
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going to bring my samesex partner to a
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work function because that will increase
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inrease the salience of my sexual
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orientation this is a veteran who
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doesn't challenge the anti-military joke
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and the elevator Les to be seen as
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overly militant or strident this is a
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woman who doesn't talk about her child
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care responsibilities at work L should
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be seen as an inauthentic or less
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committed uh worker I think really
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importantly just so that your viewers
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know that we'll catch them here uh
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oftentimes what people get puzzled about
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is what the difference between covering
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and passing is I think we all know what
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passing is where you're literally hiding
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your identity and it's a question that
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we get so often that we have loaded it
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into uh the paper uh at the outset we
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say when you're passing people literally
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don't know that you belong to a
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particular group when you're covering
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people know that you belong to the group
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either because you're unable or
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unwilling to hide your membership in the
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group but they
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nonetheless put uh pressures on you to
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downplay or edit or mute that identity
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so that they can be more comfortable
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around you so to get to the last piece
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of the question you know what are the
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differences between 2013 and uh study uh
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issued uh just uh this week so in 2013 I
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had this really kind of magical
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collaboration uh with deoy where uh they
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uh came to me I said should say you
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Joanne and your colleagues came to me
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and said you know you have crunched a
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lot of cases in your uh book uh but
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you're not an empiricist like we can
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help we have a huge kind of agap uh
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practice we have data analytics teams
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like we'll put our money where our mouth
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is like we'll push this out right to our
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own uh clients we'll design the survey
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with you and so we collaborated on this
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and it was wonderful because really the
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world of many individuals who are
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listening to this podcast the world of
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the Fortune 500 or the Amon 100 are not
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going to react to anything unless it's
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backed by hard data right and so I think
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that that was the signal you know
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Advance right that we made made in uh
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2013 with this paper in 2023 we delved
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into a lot of nuances that we can talk
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about we looked at intersectionality we
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looked at uh the ways in which white men
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sort of dominant cohorts you know tended
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to cover we also leaned heavily into
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Solutions like what the heck do we do
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about this right and came up with three
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sort of programmatic uh ways in which
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people could fight right the covering
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demands within the organization so I
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would say that this paper is again a
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kind of exponential Advance uh over the
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last one and uh the nuance and the
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practicality right of its approach I
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love the mirroring together the idea of
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Like This brilliant Theory and I
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actually did read I read the law review
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paper I do remember reading
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surpris that regard I read the
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theoretical take on it I also read the
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book um which you know has these
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wonderful illustrative examples and a
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framework that I think is is very
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accessible to to people who are
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non-academics um certainly followed the
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two 2013 work I've actually and related
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pieces that you've published with deoe
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or deoe collaborators in Harvard
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Business Review have had my students
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read those for required reading and so I
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was so delighted um when the note came
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across my inbox that you all were
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releasing this new study in 2023 so of
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course I've poured through that but
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before we get into the details of that I
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just want to turn to you Joanne and and
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help me to understand for deoy I mean
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proba also for you personally what was
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the goal behind this 2023 study what
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were you attempting to study or
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understand that you didn't quite get uh
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from the pre prior collaboration with
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Kenji thank you um well first I want to
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acknowledge that it's great to you know
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get this group back together um uh with
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you and uh Kenji um when we last
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connected at the CDI Forum in June so
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really great to to talk again um last
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time I asked the questions this time
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you're asking the question so it's great
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to be on the other side of that um and
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so as Kenji said our 2013 research
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introduced the concept of covering into
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in the corporate context and was for
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organizational leaders to understand
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what covering is um when we approached
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the 10-year anniversary uh of the a
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release of the uncovering talent the
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original paper we were curious you know
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about you know what extent uh to which
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workers still cover are they covering in
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the same way
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um what impact would this have on them
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you know what impact does it have on the
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organizations that they work for and you
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know especially in context of thinking
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of belonging as one of the outcomes that
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we aim for um so we also recognize that
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um our perspectives on identity and the
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ways those identities shape us are even
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more nuanced today and so previously we
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looked at gender race age sexual
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orientation to name a few um but we
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really wanted to explore with greater
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intentionality and ask our respondents
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specifically about the add additional
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identities that they have um and how
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that shapes the way they you know
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navigate the world so a few of those
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include caregiver status education level
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immigration status mental health status
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um military status religious affiliation
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socioeconomic status and so you can
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see how those um those uh let's say um
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more invisible identities would still
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influence how you show up you know with
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other people and um at work yeah so I'm
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sorry go ahead yeah no this is really
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interesting and really important I think
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about um you know the ways in which we
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often talk about social identity
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differences particularly here in the US
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the ones that we tend to talk about
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first or mention are things that we
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assume even though our assumptions can
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be wrong we assume to to be the case
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based on what we see and certainly you
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all can attest to this as much as I can
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in my own research in the last 10 years
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or so we've seen a lot of push often
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from our employees our clients right our
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students to talk more about the things
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that we couldn't guess um just from
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looking at someone and and I think about
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a lot mental health as being one of
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these um areas of difference that I
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would say the people who I speak to
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whether we're talking about students or
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workers are increasingly interested in
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making sure that it's aligned with how
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we talk about diversity Equity inclusion
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and belonging and certainly as we think
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about what are the implications of our
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culture and the way that we do here
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things in our culture for people who are
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um you know wrestling with but also
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navigating those very types of identity
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differences so I can imagine that that
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was quite a rich conversation you all
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had as you were trying to think about
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about how to broaden some of the work
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yes absolutely it also gave us the
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opportunity to look at the impact of
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intersectionality so the more uh let's
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say marginalized identities you um have
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you know what might that covering look
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like or what would the incidence of
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covering be um and really focus also on
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um you know what it would take as as
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Kenji said earlier to reduce the demand
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for covering coming to organization so
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so we got to dive into quite a bit of
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that yeah okay all right so let's dive a
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little bit more deep into the report and
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Joanne I'm come back to you and I want
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you to tell us a little bit about the
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study how is it conducted just some of
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the logistics so people can understand
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how we move from this sort of big big
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broad idea around covering to to as Ki
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put it the the empirics of it what did
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that look like of course um so first we
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were incredibly grateful to get to work
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with Kenji again and with his colleague
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uh David Glasgow um to collaborate on
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this reexploration of this topic so
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deo's Dei Institute you know the the
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organization that I I lead um with my
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colleagues is committed to providing
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datadriven insights back by sound
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research methodology and really we want
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to do that to you know speak to our
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business audience to help transform
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beliefs and
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behaviors so we engage a third-party
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research vendor to survey um one , 269
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full and part-time adult workers over 18
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in five uh primary Industries and the
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sample was further waited to be
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representative of all adult workers in
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the US to allow us to draw the
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inferences you know regarding the
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population as a whole um so the
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quantitative and the qualitative
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insights we highlighted in the report
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really give us a deeper understanding of
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what covering looks like in the
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workplace how it feels um you know how
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it manifests if you will and the effects
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on not only individuals but really what
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the cost is to the
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organization great great great um Kenji
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okay so I I poured this report there's
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lots of good stuff in there I will share
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what I thought was particularly um
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interesting to me as I've followed your
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insights on covering for more than the
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last 10 years but I want to hear from
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you as a person who's been um you know
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thinking about this concept the longest
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um what insights did you gain like what
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were two to three key things that stood
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out to you as being oh that's
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interesting and different and this made
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it feel like the 2023 report added
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something beyond what we've previously
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done yeah so the biggest shift I think
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would be one in kind of Gestalt between
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the 2013 and the 20123 report and I
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think that's reflected in the title so
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the 2013 report is called uncovering
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talent and the 2023 report that was just
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released is called uncovering culture
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and that reflected you know the team's
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view that you know without meaning to
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focusing on uncovering Talent really put
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the onus on the individual within these
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organizations and focused on their
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covering performances and what we
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believe is that it's less productive to
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focus on people's covering behaviors and
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much more productive to uh think about
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it in terms of the covering demands uh
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that are placed by the organization on
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those individuals so the biggest kind of
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insight and aha for me was really
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Shifting the lens and saying it's not up
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to individuals the least empowered
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people in these exchanges to transform
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right the culture that they're working
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in it's actually up to the organizations
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themselves so it's a really important
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shift I won't say that we were totally
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uh careless or insucient about that in
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the 2013 report but we were insistent
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about keeping uh the lens steadily on
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the organization throughout this report
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all right other things that come to mind
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are the intersectional point that uh
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Joan mentioned so I always think about
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uh my fellow law professor uh Kimberly
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crenshaw's work here because she really
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drove the idea of intersectionality uh
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into diversity and inclusion discourse
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and the idea there is that if you belong
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to one uh more than one I should say
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subordinated identity then uh the whole
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of that subordination can be greater
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than the sum of its parts she you know
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true to her law background first
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analyzed this in court decisions where
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she looked at class actions that black
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women were bringing and she discovered
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that judges are really bad at
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ascertaining that that discrimination
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was happening because they would go
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access by AIS they would say are is
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there discrimination on the basis of
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race no because some black men have made
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it is there discrimination on the basis
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of gender no because some white woman
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have made it end of case right uh
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whereas the people who are being left
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out in the cold in that analysis were
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black women and so the idea of uh
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intersectionality was born so it's a
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very intuitive you know today obvious
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idea but it's still been kind of under
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theorized in multiple domains here what
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we really did was to drill down not just
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into access by AIS analysis as a 2013
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analysis did but to rigorously look at
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intersectional effects so to just give
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one startling data point from the study
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if you look at black lgbtq plus
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individuals 100% of our respondents who
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belong to that cohort uh reported
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covering which was greater than either
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the black cohort or the lgbtq plus
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cohort you know generally right so I
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think that we have a really good sort of
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set of proof points about the power of
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intersectional analysis uh in this
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domain as well and finally in terms of
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key insights I would say that the
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solution set which Joanne also mentioned
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is really robust you know if you go back
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to the 2013 paper there's a kind of
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shrug Emoji frankly at the end and I'm
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not again G to apologize for that we
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didn't want to get ahead of our skis you
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know we didn't have solutions that we
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felt confident about offering here you
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know in the intervening decade like deoe
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as an organization I am my own research
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I've tested solution after solution
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after solution and we coales around
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these three solutions of diagnose
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allyship and share your story that we're
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very very confident provide the tools
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for organizations to redress uh the
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covering demands that uh their people
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are placing on their uh employees the
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final thing that I say uh because I know
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I'm talking at Wharton uh and you know
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your dear uh my dear friend and uh your
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colleague know Stu fredman is one of the
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drivers of this is that you know I I
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also noticed that uh there are these
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generational differences in how much
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people perceive uh covering so you know
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stud's point about this is that younger
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people are like unionized as a
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generation around the idea of
00:17:44
authenticity and so we hope that this
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concept will resonate uh with this uh
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cohort we do think that you know this is
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a moment where um who's where the idea
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of covering uh it's time really has come
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right because I think uh the rising
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generation of individuals for one click
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or two below even you you know Stephanie
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are are really sort of adamant about the
00:18:06
fact that they want to bring more of
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theirselves more of their passions more
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of their auth authenticity to the
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workplace so um super super interesting
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stuff I want to come back though to a
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point that you were making earlier and I
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don't want it to get lost because I
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think it's important um and part of this
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I think feels personal to me uh because
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it also reflect the evolution in my own
00:18:30
research agenda and by that I mean when
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I started off being interested in
00:18:35
organizational behavior scholarship it
00:18:37
was all about what can I as an
00:18:39
individual do to navigate this workplace
00:18:43
with my multiple identities and convince
00:18:46
my manager that this was meaningful to
00:18:50
them and at some point I cannot remember
00:18:54
exactly what happened but at some point
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I'm like why is the onus completely on
00:18:59
me to figure out how to navigate this
00:19:02
place as somebody who doesn't make
00:19:04
decisions herself um but I think the
00:19:08
interesting tension that I have found
00:19:10
especially among more Junior Scholars or
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or younger people is this wanting to
00:19:17
have a sense of agency and create my
00:19:20
experience in my
00:19:22
organization combined with the very real
00:19:25
understanding that practices and
00:19:27
policies are created by people who are
00:19:29
not me and I'm not the only one who
00:19:32
plays into culture so I just wanted to
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just talk a little bit more about this
00:19:38
it's an opportunity but it's also a
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tension between your own personal agency
00:19:43
and how you navigate who you should be
00:19:46
but then there's this organization that
00:19:47
sort of exists outside of you when we're
00:19:49
talking about this topic of covering how
00:19:51
what do you make of that yeah I think I
00:19:53
can thread that needle and I'll begin
00:19:55
with a a story after the book was
00:19:57
published for a colleague of mine said
00:19:59
you know can we go out to coffee so I
00:20:01
can tell you what I hate about your book
00:20:03
and I was like great you know that's
00:20:04
always the coffee that I want to have so
00:20:06
we had that coffee he said what I hate
00:20:08
about your book is that it gives people
00:20:10
more tools to psychoanalyze me in
00:20:13
inappropriate ways so if I act in kind
00:20:15
of Butch kind of quote unquote masculine
00:20:17
ways you know at the law school as a
00:20:20
woman uh then people are going to assume
00:20:22
that I'm covering whereas I'm just being
00:20:24
my authentic self right and so you given
00:20:27
people another l through which to look
00:20:28
at me that I find affirmatively help
00:20:31
unhelpful and a diminishing of my
00:20:33
personhood and my my authenticity and I
00:20:36
gave her the same answer that I began to
00:20:38
give to you Stephanie which is to say if
00:20:40
we take the lens off of the individual
00:20:42
and put it on the organization I think
00:20:44
that helps a lot and that shift entails
00:20:47
like stopping uh questioning uh
00:20:49
individuals covering behaviors and
00:20:51
starting to look at the organization's
00:20:53
covering demand so with regard to this
00:20:55
female colleag I'm kind of like how you
00:20:57
choose to comport yourself as your
00:20:59
business but if the institution is
00:21:01
saying to you if you want to be accepted
00:21:03
here you better behave in more
00:21:05
stereotypically masculine ways and be as
00:21:07
like feess and analytical and aggressive
00:21:10
as a stereotypical man if you want to be
00:21:12
accepted in this workplace and I would
00:21:14
say that's the kind of demand that I
00:21:15
would want to challenge and I think
00:21:17
ultimately it resolves the tension that
00:21:21
you were describing because if the
00:21:23
culture is attentive to its covering
00:21:25
demands and withdraws them that actually
00:21:27
expands the space in which you or I or
00:21:29
she right can bring their authentic
00:21:31
selves to the workplace because they're
00:21:33
no longer constrained with meeting that
00:21:35
covering demand so we're actually able
00:21:37
to engage in behaviors that are auth
00:21:40
authentic to us whether or not they
00:21:42
comport with you know stereotypes that
00:21:44
people have about the groups that we
00:21:45
belong to because the organization has
00:21:47
made a self-conscious effort to retire
00:21:50
those demands very helpful thank you so
00:21:53
much for creating greater Clarity around
00:21:55
that and I think you know what I walk
00:21:57
away from this is feeling is that it's
00:22:00
not an either or right there there
00:22:03
there's an interplay and there's a dance
00:22:06
between us and our organizations and you
00:22:10
know we have to ensure that there is
00:22:13
some thought given to what the
00:22:15
organization is doing to shape people's
00:22:20
willingness or unwillingness to show up
00:22:22
in their authentic ways in as much as
00:22:23
we're thinking about our individual
00:22:25
choices around that that's sort of what
00:22:27
I'm taking away from from that uh Joanne
00:22:30
so you've you've been knee in this data
00:22:34
in this report um what are your
00:22:36
favorites your favorite key aspects
00:22:39
insights that you that you would like to
00:22:41
share with us as we um dive in ourselves
00:22:44
sure I'll um I'll pick up on on kenji's
00:22:47
first key Insight around
00:22:49
intersectionality um in addition to
00:22:52
having all of our black LGBT respondents
00:22:55
say that they cover 93% of black work
00:22:57
workers with a disability cover and when
00:23:02
we looked at gender a much higher
00:23:04
proportion of black women at 80% and
00:23:08
Asian women at 86% cover than black men
00:23:11
at 43% and Asian men at 55% so just even
00:23:16
within the you know um race and
00:23:18
ethnicity
00:23:20
categories the other um finding that was
00:23:23
really intriguing to me and and I found
00:23:25
interesting was the finding around white
00:23:26
men so 4% of white men cover along
00:23:31
traditional lines of marginalization so
00:23:34
you know either mental or physical
00:23:36
disability age sexual orientation
00:23:38
socioeconomic status as we would expect
00:23:40
um but they also uh reported and we
00:23:44
found in some of the um qualitative uh
00:23:47
feedback they they cover along
00:23:50
historically advantaged identities so
00:23:53
they do cover for race and gender and
00:23:57
religious affili
00:23:58
based on the idea that these identities
00:24:00
are now disfavored right so of course um
00:24:05
historically uh we can imagine why um
00:24:08
and based on what's been happening you
00:24:10
know in in our working lifetimes um why
00:24:13
they might think oh you know perhaps I
00:24:15
should downplay these aspects of myself
00:24:17
um
00:24:19
so this the fact is white men continue
00:24:21
to hold many advantages um and I feel
00:24:24
like I'm saying something obvious but
00:24:25
let's just put some data behind that so
00:24:27
the senior leadership ranks of corporate
00:24:29
America are disproportionately white and
00:24:32
male relative to that group's population
00:24:34
share of the population so in
00:24:38
2023 74% of the CEOs at Fortune 50
00:24:41
companies are white men despite that
00:24:44
group comprising just 30% of the US
00:24:48
population but this is an improvement
00:24:50
right this is progress in 1980 all of
00:24:53
the CEOs of the Fortune 50 were white
00:24:55
men so um what we learned and what we
00:25:00
saw was that as organizations work to
00:25:02
address root causes of
00:25:05
inequities um as organizations work to
00:25:08
address root causes of inequities some
00:25:10
white men might experience this decline
00:25:12
in Advantage as a disadvantage really
00:25:16
it's bringing things more in line with
00:25:18
you know uh the actual proportion of the
00:25:22
pop
00:25:24
absolutely very fascinating interesting
00:25:27
and I remember reading that section that
00:25:29
was helping us to I think get a little
00:25:32
bit more clarity around why um white men
00:25:35
might cover and what they're covering
00:25:37
and the fact that they're covering the
00:25:39
the dimensions of their identities that
00:25:41
we often see as advantage in the
00:25:44
workplace um I thought that was super
00:25:46
interesting another thing that I thought
00:25:48
was super interesting in this report was
00:25:50
this concept covering by proxy um and so
00:25:55
in the report it's defined as covering
00:25:57
on on uh behalf of someone else and and
00:26:00
so here's a quote that struck me and I
00:26:02
want to read it because I think it helps
00:26:04
to provide some context and then Kendry
00:26:06
I'm G to turn it to you to help us
00:26:08
unpack this but the quote that I think
00:26:11
spoke to me was the following from from
00:26:14
one of the people who you collected data
00:26:16
on qualitative data on um this is
00:26:18
someone who says um this is tough to
00:26:21
admit but I do this on multiple fronts I
00:26:24
have one child that is multi-racial and
00:26:27
outside of work I'm very vocal and
00:26:29
supportive of the issues faced by being
00:26:31
a minority but I tend to only listen and
00:26:34
not vocally support the same view at
00:26:37
work this is also true for my
00:26:39
transgender child again away from work
00:26:43
I'm very supportive but I fear that
00:26:45
sharing my family struggles with this
00:26:47
will isolate me and damage my potential
00:26:51
for growth at work now as a human being
00:26:54
that really um struck me um it made me
00:26:57
feel quite sad but um I I just wanted to
00:27:01
just say a little bit more about this
00:27:02
covering by proxy and and certainly
00:27:05
Kenji why this is problematic can you uh
00:27:07
share a little bit more about this topic
00:27:09
with us yeah I think that uh both of
00:27:13
these ideas you know uh Joann's really
00:27:16
wonderful point about uh how the
00:27:18
dominant groups are covering their
00:27:20
identities but also this notion of uh
00:27:23
covering by proxy kind of go together in
00:27:25
my mind because I think that we can view
00:27:28
it as uh a kind of a place of of attack
00:27:32
or we can view it as a place of
00:27:34
solidarity and obviously we want to view
00:27:36
it as a ladder so what I mean by that is
00:27:38
that you could look at you know the
00:27:40
white man who report um covering and you
00:27:43
can say oh this is just like false
00:27:45
equivalence you're comparing your paper
00:27:47
cut to my flesh wound and so I'm just
00:27:50
going to Discount this and you know we
00:27:52
want to put this in context and say yes
00:27:54
you know of course everything that
00:27:56
Joanne said was right right you know
00:27:59
white men are still vastly
00:28:00
disproportionately you know over
00:28:02
represented you know say in the Fortune
00:28:04
50 uh CEO ranks right but at the same
00:28:07
time the message that we want to draw
00:28:09
from the study is no cohort is immune
00:28:11
from the covering demand so don't make
00:28:12
assumptions to go back to what you were
00:28:14
saying earlier Stephanie of like you
00:28:16
can't just eyeball somebody and say oh
00:28:18
you like all lights have turned green
00:28:20
for you all the way down the highway of
00:28:22
life right like nobody is that uh
00:28:24
privileged we all just as human beings
00:28:26
of vulnerability and once we see that no
00:28:28
cohort even like sis hat you know
00:28:30
straight man you know are covering uh
00:28:33
various aspects of Our Lives this really
00:28:35
becomes a universal project it isn't
00:28:37
Like Us Versus Them and in the wake of
00:28:40
the Supreme Court's SFA decision like I
00:28:42
have to say as a lawyer like we're all
00:28:44
looking for those Universal Solutions
00:28:45
the things that don't pit one racial
00:28:47
group against another racial group or
00:28:49
one gender against another gender or
00:28:51
what have you and I think covering
00:28:53
really is that idea once we see that
00:28:56
everyone is covering something uh and
00:28:58
therefore every cohort has an interest
00:29:01
and the name of bringing more of their
00:29:03
passion and their authenticity to their
00:29:05
work right in this uncovering culture uh
00:29:08
project uh then the appeal of this can
00:29:10
really be Universal because it's a
00:29:12
rising tide that lifts all both I feel
00:29:14
really similarly about the covering by
00:29:16
proxy notion which is you could look at
00:29:19
somebody who's saying oh I don't cover
00:29:20
myself but like I don't talk about my
00:29:23
child who is trans or who is
00:29:25
multi-racial and you could say well
00:29:27
that's not a direct harm that you suffer
00:29:29
so I'm not really going to listen to
00:29:30
that that's not a a particularly Salient
00:29:33
aspect of this you know analysis or we
00:29:36
could approach it in a more openhearted
00:29:38
way and to say like you know that is you
00:29:40
know a form of covering and if we
00:29:42
acknowledge that what we're really
00:29:43
acknowledging is that people are allies
00:29:46
right people are connected to
00:29:47
marginalized communities that they don't
00:29:49
belong to themselves and oftentimes have
00:29:51
to make really uh hard decisions right
00:29:53
about how much to disclose or how how
00:29:55
not to disclose and uh there's some
00:29:57
suffering right involved in being that
00:29:59
kind of Ally so again if we take the
00:30:01
more kind of openhearted generous
00:30:03
approach this project stops being like
00:30:05
us versus them that stops being like
00:30:07
you're a terrible person because you're
00:30:09
straight and you're forcing me to be
00:30:10
straight acting as a gay man right it's
00:30:13
it's not really about that it's like how
00:30:14
can we make this culture better for
00:30:16
everyone who inhabits it right including
00:30:18
individuals and dominant groups
00:30:20
including people who are uh covering by
00:30:22
proy even if they're not directly
00:30:23
covering themselves I think you make a
00:30:26
very important point and I I forget who
00:30:28
coined the term but I often use it when
00:30:31
I'm um in in sort of like informal
00:30:34
context and it's called the you know the
00:30:36
term the oppression Olympics so let me
00:30:38
know if you remember who who coined this
00:30:40
term but you know we often use this term
00:30:43
to talk about marginalized groups and
00:30:45
sometimes it's like my marginalized
00:30:47
group is suffering more than your
00:30:48
marginalized group but I started
00:30:50
thinking about that term slightly
00:30:52
differently Kenji based on what you just
00:30:54
said is if we can recognize that an
00:30:57
unfortunate aspect of The Human
00:30:59
Experience is that a lot of people feel
00:31:02
that they are suffering in fact I'm sure
00:31:04
if you walk down the street and you ask
00:31:06
somebody did they do is something like
00:31:08
challenging for them I would venture to
00:31:10
say that most people feel like there are
00:31:12
some challenges that they are facing and
00:31:15
and while we can you know think about
00:31:18
perhaps on one level how someone might
00:31:20
have more Advantage than we have I'm not
00:31:22
sure we would encounter too many people
00:31:24
who said my life is great and it's fine
00:31:26
all of the time and I'm never are
00:31:27
suffering and and so when I think about
00:31:29
what you're saying we're think about the
00:31:30
current context right now I know so many
00:31:32
Chief diversity Equity inclusion
00:31:34
officers are struggling in their jobs
00:31:36
right now as they're trying to you know
00:31:38
drum up support for the continued work
00:31:40
on this space um one of the things that
00:31:43
I hear you saying Kenji which is also
00:31:45
the benefit of this covering research is
00:31:48
um sometimes it becomes really important
00:31:50
to help us also understand the the ways
00:31:53
in which we all are challenged in our
00:31:56
workplaces and to address those and
00:31:59
covering and uncovering these are um
00:32:03
Universal challenges and issues and
00:32:05
opportunities that exist in our
00:32:08
organization that can create negative
00:32:10
impacts for all of us and for all of our
00:32:13
organizations um and it is inherently A
00:32:16
diversity Equity inclusion and belonging
00:32:17
issue that affects lots of different
00:32:20
people no matter their intersectional or
00:32:23
lack there of experience so I think I'm
00:32:25
going to take that away with me as I'm
00:32:27
listening to people talk about the value
00:32:30
of Dei right now and all the legislation
00:32:33
and what that means is is um sometimes
00:32:36
there are issues like covering and
00:32:37
uncovering which um we're not addressing
00:32:41
that are to everyone's benefit that we
00:32:43
talk about more broadly so with the last
00:32:46
few minutes that we have I just want to
00:32:48
get into I'm so sorry can I jump in on
00:32:50
that important point that you're raising
00:32:53
you want to take us to Solutions too
00:32:55
Kenji that would be great because that's
00:32:56
where we're going next great absolutely
00:32:59
so I will I will try to be very succinct
00:33:01
about this but this is one of the things
00:33:02
that I just not to embarrass you Joanne
00:33:04
but really learned a lot from Joan on of
00:33:06
like the importance of keeping both
00:33:09
sides of that tension steadily visible
00:33:11
and like not forcing ourselves to choose
00:33:13
in between the two of them yes on the
00:33:15
one hand I want to say I don't want to
00:33:17
participate in the oppression Olympics
00:33:20
but on the other hand I also don't want
00:33:22
to treat all forms of human pain as
00:33:24
being completely equal and to fall into
00:33:26
the trial of false equivalence right so
00:33:28
I don't want to say the fact that you
00:33:30
had to cover you that your fact that you
00:33:32
were Humanities major when you went into
00:33:34
the tech company is the same thing as
00:33:36
you know a black person having to
00:33:37
modulate their identity with regard to
00:33:40
uh anti-black Prejudice right those are
00:33:42
not the same thing right so how do we
00:33:43
keep both Notions steadily visible that
00:33:46
everyone covers right but also that some
00:33:49
this tax is being exacted more heavily
00:33:51
on some cohorts than it is on others and
00:33:54
framed in that way I actually don't
00:33:56
think that there is attention I think
00:33:57
that we can say both things so saying
00:34:00
yes everyone covers this is a universal
00:34:02
phenomenon but also please just in the
00:34:03
name of our common Humanity like please
00:34:06
don't engage in false equivalences right
00:34:09
and from a strategic perspective like I
00:34:11
also think that people are much more
00:34:12
able to hear I think a lot of the ranti
00:34:15
ma on the part of dominant groups and
00:34:17
you know as a man I can speak to this is
00:34:20
you know the the notion of if you don't
00:34:22
recognize if you if you treat me like
00:34:24
you know everything has been great in my
00:34:26
life and like I have no forms of
00:34:27
vulnerability whatsoever I'm going to
00:34:29
bristle at that right but if you can
00:34:30
acknowledge in this Universal way of
00:34:32
like we all as human beings have
00:34:34
vulnerabilities that's GNA open a
00:34:36
conversation rather than close it down
00:34:38
and I'm much more likely to be able to
00:34:40
hear that I may be engaging in false
00:34:42
equivalences by treating the various
00:34:44
kind of slings and arrows that I've
00:34:46
suffered in my life uh to somebody
00:34:48
else's experience so I think we need to
00:34:50
keep both truths steadily visible
00:34:52
everyone every cohort covers uh and this
00:34:56
taxes assessed of everyone but it is not
00:34:58
assessed evenly across c-port we we have
00:35:00
data backed ways and saying you know
00:35:02
people of color women lgbtq plus
00:35:05
individuals have uh much higher rates of
00:35:07
covering than uh the general population
00:35:10
so this is something that was so such a
00:35:13
productive conversation uh with between
00:35:15
our team and deo's team and and I think
00:35:17
we landed in a really good place and I
00:35:18
just wanted to communicate that now with
00:35:21
regard to Solutions which I also as I
00:35:23
mentioned earlier the the kind of really
00:35:25
one of the the kind of Mark key
00:35:27
contributions of uh this study so as I
00:35:30
said the 2013 study again I make no
00:35:32
apologies for this that's where we were
00:35:33
at the time was very thin on Solutions
00:35:36
so here we have three solutions that we
00:35:38
are offering as a way of moving a a
00:35:41
covering culture into uh a culture of
00:35:44
where individuals can uncover so the
00:35:47
first one is diagnos and this isn't just
00:35:49
identifying the phenomenon although
00:35:51
that's really important before we uh had
00:35:53
the term unconscious bias and hammered
00:35:55
it into our public vocabulary we could
00:35:56
do anything about it so to with covering
00:35:59
but I just want to say that it's not
00:36:00
just diagnosing like the fact that
00:36:03
you're covering along or four axes of
00:36:04
appearance affiliation advocacy or
00:36:06
Association and the definitions are all
00:36:08
in the paper I won't detain us here with
00:36:10
that but it's also saying like if you do
00:36:13
cover does it hurt because some people
00:36:15
are like what we imagine Margaret
00:36:17
Thatcher to be that's our kind of go-to
00:36:19
example like she was forced into go
00:36:21
voice coaching to scrub her workingclass
00:36:23
accent and to lower the timber of her
00:36:25
voice uh so she exuded more gravitas but
00:36:28
she never complained about it so we can
00:36:30
imagine a lot of people who would say
00:36:31
like oh yeah I was asked to cover but no
00:36:33
harm no foul it was just what I needed
00:36:35
to do to get to the next level of my
00:36:36
career and I didn't experience it as a
00:36:38
privation to the ex other to the
00:36:40
contrary I experienced it as
00:36:41
constructive feedback so if you're
00:36:43
covering but it's not harmful then you
00:36:45
know you're one of the lucky ones like
00:36:47
no further action required right even if
00:36:49
you're covering and it hurts we still
00:36:52
want you to ask the question of like is
00:36:54
the covering demand backed by an
00:36:55
organizational value value right so
00:36:57
often times for us are all forms of
00:36:58
covering bad like if I show up at
00:37:00
Wharton or I show up at at deoe and I'm
00:37:03
rabidly obnoxious and you say knock it
00:37:05
off and I say this is my authentic self
00:37:07
deal with it right that's not gonna get
00:37:10
very far right and so we have to come to
00:37:13
the conclusion that some forms of
00:37:14
covering are beneficial right uh to the
00:37:16
smooth functioning of an organization so
00:37:18
how do we winnow out the good from the
00:37:19
bad forms our answer is organizational
00:37:22
Valu so if you can back with a neutral
00:37:25
organizational value the fact that you
00:37:27
don't want people to be obnoxious in the
00:37:28
workplace it's a kind of silly example
00:37:30
but you get where I'm going then you're
00:37:32
fine but often times what we find in our
00:37:35
research is that people are being asked
00:37:36
to cover in ways that would kind of
00:37:38
horrify the organization at a higher
00:37:40
level of generality so G people are
00:37:42
being told be straight acting or you
00:37:44
know don't work on gay rights issues
00:37:46
right if you want to be a member of this
00:37:47
organization and the organization thinks
00:37:49
of itself as Pro lgbtq Plus and it's
00:37:51
horrified when it's confronted by uh the
00:37:54
mismatch between the ideals that ports
00:37:56
of live under and the ideals that it's
00:37:58
actually living up to so diagnos is that
00:38:01
first bucket the second bucket is to be
00:38:04
an active Ally uh and this sort of draws
00:38:07
on the general research that we know
00:38:09
this is Heckman and Johnson this is kind
00:38:11
of your neck of the woods Stephanie sort
00:38:13
of organizational psych right but this
00:38:15
is the Allies are much more effective at
00:38:17
intervening uh with regard to all issues
00:38:19
of bias and affected parties themselves
00:38:22
so you're much less likely to take a hit
00:38:24
uh in terms of your reputation you're
00:38:25
much more likely to be listen to if you
00:38:27
come in as an ally rather than if you
00:38:29
are uh the person directly targeted or
00:38:32
affected so it's a broads spectrum
00:38:34
antibiotic it works for a lot of dni
00:38:35
issues but it also works for covering so
00:38:38
you know if you know a latinx individual
00:38:40
walks in late for a meeting and someone
00:38:41
says oh I see on Latino time then I'm
00:38:44
gonna be much more effective as someone
00:38:46
who doesn't belong to that Community
00:38:47
Stepping in and saying and a smart sort
00:38:50
of hopefully effective sensitive way you
00:38:52
know saying you know I I don't you know
00:38:54
think that that was a helpful comment I
00:38:56
don't need to drag the affective person
00:38:57
into it but I can say I as someone who
00:39:00
um invested in inclusive culture was
00:39:01
troubled by that comment could you
00:39:03
please explain our refres and I'll be
00:39:04
much more effective in intervening from
00:39:06
the side as an ally than I will be as
00:39:08
the affected person so if we all do that
00:39:10
for each other we're going to get much
00:39:13
further right and combating covering
00:39:15
demands than if everyone is forced to
00:39:17
deal with the covering demands that are
00:39:18
directed at them and the final solution
00:39:21
which I have to admit is my favorite is
00:39:23
share your story and we open with
00:39:26
stories of our own you know covering
00:39:28
experiences and what we covered as
00:39:30
co-authors of the study so my executive
00:39:33
director David Glasgow uh Joann's you
00:39:35
know colleagues Heather and sine all
00:39:37
write their stories because we thought
00:39:38
we have to Pony up here and model uh
00:39:41
what we're trying to ask of people and
00:39:43
it's not a huge lift uh these are
00:39:45
stories that you know are not like too
00:39:47
much information stories but they
00:39:49
nonetheless color outside the bounds of
00:39:50
a traditional resume right and so we say
00:39:53
it's really important when you're
00:39:54
introducing yourself to an internal
00:39:55
external audience particularly if you're
00:39:57
a leader to say something that shows
00:40:00
your Humanity beyond your uh traditional
00:40:03
work credentials and just as importantly
00:40:06
in these kind of infinite but
00:40:07
infinitesimal moments like you can share
00:40:09
in ways that are not like set pieces but
00:40:12
like offhand Grace notes or comments
00:40:14
that say I'm leaving work to go to my
00:40:16
daughter's soccer game right rather than
00:40:18
not giving a reason or lying about it
00:40:20
and say I'm leaving work to go to a
00:40:23
client meeting or to go to my own
00:40:24
doctor's appointment or something that
00:40:26
is to be more acceptable in a
00:40:28
traditional workplace it's by pushing
00:40:30
against those kind of daily uh Norms
00:40:33
right that we can actually create the
00:40:34
space by sharing our stories for other
00:40:36
people to share their stories with us
00:40:38
thank you thank you so much for those
00:40:40
really practical tips Kenji Joanne I
00:40:43
want to close out with you uh managers
00:40:46
and non-managers I like to refer to I
00:40:49
know as dee does as well non-managers as
00:40:51
individual contributors but can you give
00:40:53
us a couple of tips for managers and
00:40:55
individual contributors as we're
00:40:57
thinking about the implications of what
00:41:00
you all found in this study uh sure uh
00:41:04
so um with regard to leaders and
00:41:07
managers as Kenji mentioned our um you
00:41:10
know recommendation is that they create
00:41:12
the environment or Foster you know
00:41:14
psychological safety um where they have
00:41:17
influence in order to um enable
00:41:19
uncovering and a very effective way to
00:41:21
do that is to start with your own
00:41:23
uncovering or um at minimum to help
00:41:27
others understand you know that it is
00:41:29
acceptable um for them to uncover and
00:41:32
that their identity is accepted and and
00:41:34
appreciated and everything that comes
00:41:36
with that um and so you know workers uh
00:41:40
believe that um their leaders uh create
00:41:43
psychological safety our respondents
00:41:45
said at about 50% and they also believe
00:41:49
that leaders actually want their
00:41:51
authenticity that's at about
00:41:53
61% I'll say I think we can do better
00:41:56
than that um certainly uh and um you
00:42:00
know when we are able to um be active
00:42:05
allies regardless of our role I think
00:42:07
that that makes a significant difference
00:42:09
so um when I think about um my
00:42:12
experience I I'll give an example uh so
00:42:15
I was you know up for partner at the
00:42:18
firm and um you know sort of navigating
00:42:21
my way through that that's a difficult
00:42:23
uh and and a very big U Milestone and I
00:42:26
had a coach working with me and he said
00:42:28
to me that his leader his manager was
00:42:31
holding him accountable for my success
00:42:34
or basically holding us accountable for
00:42:36
our joint success and that was a turning
00:42:39
point for me in our relationship and
00:42:42
also how I showed up you know because a
00:42:45
couple of things one it signaled to me
00:42:47
that you know who I was and the way I
00:42:50
showed up you know was not only
00:42:53
acceptable but valued um but also you
00:42:56
know when I sort of prodded him on and I
00:42:57
said well yeah she wants you to help me
00:42:59
and all that she's like he's like no no
00:43:01
she's holding me accountable so maybe
00:43:03
you think you're out in the middle of
00:43:05
the lake in the rowboat by yourself
00:43:07
rowing and I'm on the shore waving at
00:43:09
you and wishing you good luck no we're
00:43:11
both in the boat and we're rowing
00:43:13
together we're in it together and my
00:43:16
reaction was to say oh all right well
00:43:19
then I can tell you what's really going
00:43:21
on you know because before I wasn't sure
00:43:24
and I wasn't sure that I was safe but
00:43:26
because this colleague um was able to
00:43:31
signal that you know it was safe to be
00:43:34
myself and I was being accepted and
00:43:36
valued then I was able to uncover um uh
00:43:40
for other individuals you know in active
00:43:42
allyship as um Kenji mentioned you know
00:43:45
standing up or showing up for others
00:43:47
particularly those that don't share that
00:43:49
particular identity um makes the most
00:43:51
difference I I know that you know you've
00:43:53
seen in your work where you know people
00:43:55
who who um let's say are show up for or
00:44:00
stand up for those who share an identity
00:44:02
um are both you know Lo both lose
00:44:04
credibility but when we show up for
00:44:06
those who are um of a different identity
00:44:09
you know that makes a real difference
00:44:10
and so I had someone remind me the other
00:44:14
day um we were talking about what active
00:44:16
allyship looks like and he said you
00:44:18
don't have to be white to be an
00:44:20
ally which is you know sounds obvious of
00:44:23
course but what that means is that we
00:44:25
can all be active allies to each other
00:44:28
regardless of our role regardless of our
00:44:30
level if we show up for each other if we
00:44:32
make the space and we signal um in
00:44:36
obvious and and subtle ways that you
00:44:39
know this is acceptable and this is
00:44:41
valued then that gives all of us the
00:44:45
courage to show up and demonstrate you
00:44:48
know who we really are and you know
00:44:50
counteract the negative impacts of
00:44:52
covering within the organization
00:44:54
absolutely great great great stuff
00:44:57
Joanne in Kenji this report is wonderful
00:45:02
um I hope everyone reads it uncovering
00:45:04
culture it is available everywhere but
00:45:08
where can people access it besides
00:45:11
everywhere if they want to get a copy of
00:45:13
that we can certainly link to it in the
00:45:15
article that we publish but is there a a
00:45:17
good googleable term that we should send
00:45:20
to certainly Google uncovering culture a
00:45:23
few other things might show up I'm not
00:45:25
gonna lie
00:45:26
but the easiest way to get to it is you
00:45:28
know
00:45:29
www.d.com
00:45:32
usus
00:45:33
uncovering excellent you'll have access
00:45:36
to everything we have there excellent
00:45:38
all right um it's a good read it's not
00:45:40
too academic it has the right balance of
00:45:43
empirics and I think people who are in
00:45:45
organizations and and certainly
00:45:47
researchers like myself who are always
00:45:48
always looking for ways to sort of frame
00:45:51
practical issues um in academic ways
00:45:54
will find this uh beneficial as as well
00:45:56
so I want to thank you Kenji and Joanne
00:45:58
for joining us today thank you for
00:46:00
sharing your insights and your expertise
00:46:03
with us truly appreciate you for being
00:46:05
here I know the guests or the the uh the
00:46:07
listeners the audience always uh loves
00:46:10
the chance to hear from experts like
00:46:11
yourself on these topics that are very
00:46:13
really really real and Salient to them
00:46:16
in their daily work lives uh so thank
00:46:18
you to the audience for joining us uh
00:46:20
and for listening to this episode of the
00:46:22
knowledge at wart and leading diversity
00:46:23
at work podcast series goodbye for now
00:46:27
for more insight from knowledge at
00:46:29
Warton please visit knowledge. won.
00:46:32
up.edu
00:46:36
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