00:00:00
Start off with a hybrid, maybe three in the office,
two at home, and see how it goes.
00:00:04
Measure it, study it. Right, because we are trying
to figure it out in terms of companies,
00:00:09
organizations, industries of what may work
and what may not. Now, other companies and leaders
00:00:15
have taken a much firm, firmer stance like
we're going to be in the office or not.
00:00:19
But even even you've had you've even seen
sort of a little bit of resistance
00:00:22
or pushback on that as well. Welcome to The Ripple Effect, the podcast that takes you on a journey
through the minds at work and faculty.
00:00:30
I'm your host, Delany, and in each episode
we'll be diving deep into the inspiration
00:00:35
behind the groundbreaking research
that Wharton professors have conducted and exploring how their findings
resonate with the world today.
00:00:43
Well,
the topic of time management has always been a part of the discussion
of having a successful career.
00:00:48
But some of those elements have changed due to what we experienced
during the coronavirus pandemic
00:00:53
and the fact that remote work has become
a more integral part of our lives. Pleasure to be joined here in studio
by Michael
00:00:58
Parke, assistant professor of management
here at the Wharton School. Michael, great to see you.
Thanks so much for having me.
00:01:04
So the dynamics of of obviously,
time management are rooted in our history
as a country, as a culture, etc..
00:01:13
How do you think, though,
it has kind of developed with the pandemic and and all that
we've experienced over the last few years?
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Absolutely. I mean,
I think that in said time management, I often even like to broaden it out
to self management.
00:01:27
Right. And when you have structure, which
we had a lot of in terms of going to work,
00:01:33
you have your commute, you get to work,
you have an office, you have a routine. And then when the pandemic just sort of
changed that for so many people,
00:01:41
where you have to find a new structure
at home, a different office,
you have different distractions,
00:01:47
you have some less distractions
because your colleagues, but you might have kids,
you might have a lot of other devices
00:01:53
at your at your house that you may not
have had access to at work. It was really learning
how to find routines and structure
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and manage your time at a home office,
especially if you weren't used to that,
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especially if you didn't work at home
before the pandemic. So I think it really radically shifted
how people figured out
00:02:11
how to be disciplined,
how to do their work and how to allocate their time
in a different space in a different way.
00:02:18
Once we shifted a lot to remote work. What do you think then are
the expectations as we move forward here?
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Because obviously the pandemic for
the most part is behind us. We still have remote work as a component,
but you have more companies,
00:02:33
you know, as we move
further away from this, that are starting to call workers back into the office
more full time.
00:02:39
How do you think that dynamic
is going to play out here? Is it going to be company by company
or are we going to see
00:02:45
more of a return to what we remember
pre-pandemic? Yeah, I mean, I think that's the
that's one of the key questions out there.
00:02:52
And I can't say
I have a strong prediction answer. I think what you see is different
companies trying different things.
00:02:58
And one of one of the professors at Stanford who's studied
a lot of the remote work, Nik Blum,
00:03:05
he's his advice in the past year
or so has been to companies is to kind of experiment. Right.
00:03:10
Start off with a hybrid,
maybe three in the office, two at home, and see how it goes.
00:03:15
Measure it, study it. Right, because we are trying
to figure it out in terms of companies,
00:03:20
organizations, industries of what may work
and what may not. Now, other companies and leaders
00:03:26
have taken a much firm, firmer stance like
we're going to be in the office or not.
00:03:29
But you even even you've had you've even seen sort of a little bit of resistance
or pushback on that as well.
00:03:34
So I think right now
we're trying to figure it out. And I don't have a strong prediction
of what's going to win out.
00:03:39
If I had to take a guess, I think overall what we're going to see
is much more flexibility, meaning
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that we're going to give workers
more flexibility of where they work and how they work
than they have in the past.
00:03:49
And I think overall, that is a good thing
for for workers in their productivity,
00:03:53
in their engagement,
as well as for companies. But we'll see. We'll see what the data shakes up.
00:03:59
But it's very interesting
that the voice of the employee of the worker seemingly has more
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strength behind it
now than maybe we've ever seen it before. And maybe that's in part
a byproduct of what we're seeing
00:04:13
with all the unionization
activity as well. But the voice of the employee really
is carrying a lot of weight at the moment.
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I mean, I would definitely say
it seems that way anecdotally, at least right where the stories you hear
and the leaders I talk to and,
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you know,
we can't get workers back to work. What do you mean? How do they have a choice
in the first place?
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Right. Like, can't you just make them? And I think that's in spirit of one.
00:04:38
You did see this galvanization of,
well, we're all trying to figure out how to cope,
how to battle this pandemic together.
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And we want we know people are struggling. We know it's
very difficult, it's uncertain.
00:04:51
And you had this sort of sense of purpose in us banding together
and helping each other out.
00:04:57
And I think there's been some lingering
effects there with, well, what makes sense this
like when you're forced to totally shift
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gears, it's an opportunity
for companies and employees and leaders to reflect, well,
what makes sense?
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Does it make sense for me to spend hours
commuting when I could spend that time productively on my computer?
00:05:15
Now that we've figured out
how to work from a remote standpoint. And so I think that both business logic,
00:05:22
but also like human care and well-being,
which is also been a center the past few years as well,
those forces merging together,
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I think has led to this open
conversation of, well, let's try to craft something that works for you
and for us as a company.
00:05:36
Whereas before, I don't think
it was malicious or intentional. It was just what we did.
00:05:42
We just went to work. Right, Right. And there are obviously
I think it's also a scenario of
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it really depends on the job
that you have in the sector. Maybe they can totally because obviously
somebody who's a firefighter,
00:05:54
police officer can't do that job remote, somebody that's a banker
that's in you know, in that field.
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I think the expectation is
a lot of companies want them in there. There are jobs that will work remote
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and there are jobs that just won't work
remote. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, there's fears
both ways, right?
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There's fears of
if you don't let people work remote, will that just drive dissatisfaction?
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Will they then try to go to jobs
that have more flexibility? But then you have the other side,
the fear of like, well, if we don't bring
00:06:23
people together, like I know
leaders in particular are worried about maintaining that culture,
maintaining those relationships, building
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where work is central and people are
focused and you're building those bonds.
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And right now,
at least with the current technology, we don't have a good substitute
for getting people together in person.
00:06:40
That still does seem to be
the strongest driver of those bonds. That cohesion
and that those little things that do
00:06:47
kind of make the place,
make the culture, the place and so forth. Yeah, the term you used
before self-management, I think is
00:06:53
is very interesting for this dynamic
that we're seeing play out in that truly it is because when you're
somebody that is working from home
00:07:02
now it seems more than ever
that we see the workday broken up and that that allows you
to obviously still do your job,
00:07:12
but it allows you to,
if you have small kids, to be able to take them and take care of them at home,
or if you have to run an errand,
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take care of that. And that's a dynamic
that is obviously it feels very different
00:07:24
to what we've had in
and around the workplace. But as you alluded
to, companies are accepting of this. Now.
00:07:30
That's a part of the different mindset
as well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when you have the freedom
and flexibility, as long as you
00:07:37
you know, the key the key glue here
is that trust, right? Where employers trust their employees
to get their work done,
00:07:44
to not be slacking off,
to contribute to the company. And then it's like, okay, if our goals are
aligned, our priorities are aligned,
00:07:52
then we trust you to structure your days
the way that works best for you. So if you need to work early
before your kids get up,
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then take a couple of hours
to get them to school. But then you're going to make up that time
and deliver the work
00:08:04
like that works for us. You know,
now there's coordination costs, right? Because if you do need to integrate with
people, schedules and diaries can be more
00:08:12
challenging to sort of align and things
like that, which is another problem. But if it's sort of this individual level
relationship with the individual
00:08:20
employee in the organization, yeah,
that trust is that glue to kind of we trust you, you can self-manage.
00:08:26
We're going to
we're going to evaluate you on are you delivering the work
at a high level?
00:08:32
And that's what matters to us. So let me play devil's
advocate here for a moment,
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because part of the discussion as well
is, okay, we're allowing people to do that
and it works for them.
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But you've also taken the workday
and you've basically lengthened it out
00:08:46
in many cases to where
it's like a 14 hour window instead of being an eight hour window, or
that that dynamic may vary a little bit.
00:08:53
Yeah. And there are people who are out there
that are concerned that we were so connected to our work
beforehand.
00:09:00
We've kind of
it feels like even increase that more. Yeah, you say what to that.
00:09:04
So I think there's two. So I think that is definitely happening
and there can be a fear that
00:09:11
scholars have looked at this in terms of job creep, right,
where you get increasing demands.
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But there's also time creep
where the work doesn't turn off, you know, and and I don't have commute
to like transition from work to home.
00:09:23
I'm just at home. And so now I can check my phone
during dinner and like great.
00:09:27
So I think there's two mechanisms
to kind of regulate and that's
why self-management is so important.
00:09:31
One is ourselves, like are we conscious
of what we're doing in our actions to make sure
we have the structure of like,
00:09:39
okay, what are our work hours
and what our non-work hours and are holding ourselves
accountable to those?
00:09:44
Right? And so one is on ourselves to set up those those mechanisms to be disciplined,
to not allowing the time to creep to work.
00:09:53
The other is culturally right. And you see organizations do this as well,
where some at the extreme
00:09:58
end are mandating. You cannot email at this time. Right. That's the strong and others
sort of use social norms right.
00:10:06
Where they the norm is like,
okay, don't email people after these hours or don't expect a response. Right?
00:10:13
We we expect a response
during certain hours. But after that, there's
no expectation of response.
00:10:18
So that's culturally built in. So those two mechanisms help deal
with this concern or the actuality of,
00:10:25
wow, you're working a lot longer
and that can have a cost, I guess then it's going to be interesting
to see this play out as we move forward.
00:10:34
The baby boomer generation is coming,
you know, kind of they have transitioned and have this component
mixed in all the other generations.
00:10:42
But the younger generations,
as we move forward, are going to really this is going to what they're going
to understand this to be the norm.
00:10:50
And I think that's going to be the unique dynamic to watch out
is how they react to this moving forward.
00:10:55
And if any of those dynamics change
how much they I don't know
if I want to use the word revolt,
00:11:01
but they you know, they battle back against what is perceived
to be not the norm anymore.
00:11:06
I mean, I think I think it's super
interesting question. Right. And at least, you know,
when I teach my undergraduate students
00:11:11
and we're having lunch
and I hear a lot of them say they're they're excited about their internships,
which are in-person.
00:11:18
Right. And you did see some data that the younger
people who are maybe single new professionals in these offices,
like they were the ones that wanted in
00:11:27
work, in-person work more often than people
that might have established families
00:11:31
and so forth, because you have different
priorities right. And so I think that both A,
what are they interested in, But.
00:11:39
B, Yeah, having the opportunity
or flexibility to pursue what they want to pursue in terms of work arrangement,
I think that's important to everyone.
00:11:48
And I could definitely see younger people maybe demanding,
but also trying to find a job that offers
00:11:54
that that ability to seek the type of work
and arrangement that they want. Yes, I think that's going to be a new like
that's when you're looking for jobs,
00:12:02
right?
You're like have cultural fit, job fit. Does it matter skills? I think work
arrangement is probably a criteria
00:12:08
that's moved up there for younger people
than it was in the past, where everything was just kind
of assumed to be in person or remote.
00:12:14
Right? Yeah. So I'm going to ask you somewhat of a
theoretical question. Yeah.
00:12:19
Because we have become such kind of connected to all of the technology
that we have in our lives.
00:12:27
And I've I've often wondered
whether or not this change around
remote work might have happened
00:12:34
even without the pandemic, because of the connectivity
that we have through technology
00:12:39
and because of all the platforms,
it may have taken a lot longer to occur. But maybe whether or not it still would
have happened to a degree down the road.
00:12:47
Yeah, fascinating. I, I think that so there would there would have had to be some impetus
00:12:59
for for changing or moving that way. And when everyone was forced to and
then really like you don't have a choice.
00:13:08
Right. Or again just we were home. There was no other option. There was no other option
for certain injuries
00:13:13
that we we always have to acknowledge,
like certain industries didn't have that luxury,
00:13:18
didn't have the choice, were still risking
their lives, were still on the ground
00:13:21
for it. Like we have to acknowledge that. But for those organizations
that had that choice,
00:13:26
those industries
that had the choice, they were forced to it made it simpler for leaders to just
00:13:32
accept that choice and figure it out with they so all their fears of like,
will this work?
00:13:38
Yeah, right. They didn't have to think about it. They have to worry about it.
00:13:42
And now that's what I think you see with this uncertainty of like,
do we bring people back to work or not?
00:13:48
Because all of the fears are at play
and they have to make those decisions. Now. So maybe if there was impetus of
like we could save so much money
00:13:56
without renting,
you know, Manhattan real estate prices or commercial rent or things
that like maybe moved that was try it.
00:14:03
But I think the I think
where you probably would have seen it eventually is startup companies
disruptive companies
00:14:11
where they're trying this right
and it's working and then older companies, more established
companies were like learning from them
00:14:18
and implementing those policies. That's probably where you could have seen
this change occur over time.
00:14:22
So you bring up something very interesting
about the real estate component. And realistically, even though we have
this dynamic that it's already changed.
00:14:30
Yes. And we have remote work and we're
obviously talking about time management.
00:14:34
Yeah. That there are still elements of this
that are still yet to play out, you know, repercussions from it
or downstream impact. Yes.
00:14:41
That we're going to be seeing play out
realistically over the next ten or 20 years,
aren't we? Yes, absolutely.
00:14:48
And and there's opportunities
and challenges with that. Right. Depending on the industries,
depending on business models,
00:14:55
there's going to be new innovation.
There's going to be new creativity. When you bring in
00:14:59
artificial intelligence and all the tools
we're seeing there, Right. Like, will we even manage our own time?
00:15:04
Or we're going to outsource that or outsource that to computers in
AI who can just do that more efficiently?
00:15:09
And you see applications
like trying to do that and trying to save that time for people
to do your scheduling for you.
00:15:16
Right. And I don't think we're quite there yet
in terms of the ability of these tools,
00:15:21
but we're going to get there. And so, yeah,
I think there's a lot of fascinating
00:15:24
questions of like,
how is this all going to play out? And and, you know, what has been true,
I think, for people
00:15:31
for a long time is always interested
in ways to improving yourself in your productivity. Right.
00:15:38
And time management self manage
that often at that. And so a lot of the tools we we do have
been things something as simple as like
00:15:46
setting up routines
around planning your time you know planning your weeks, scheduling
your priorities, going back to an old
00:15:52
Stephen Covey quote from seven Habits
of Highly Effective People. Schedule your priorities right?
00:15:57
Otherwise your time will fill up
and you won't be getting done the meaningful work.
00:16:01
So planning, discipline, having accountability mechanisms
so that you don't detract from
00:16:09
fall through to resistance, but
that takes you away from your priorities. So I think those things
will always be constant,
00:16:15
but then you're going to have these tools
that might be able to assist you in doing those things more efficiently
00:16:21
and more effectively,
which is also very exciting. Yeah, Michael, great to talk with you.
Thanks very much.
00:16:26
Thank you so much. You got it. Michael Parke, who is assistant professor
of management here at the Wharton School.
00:16:32
Thank you for listening
to the ripple effect. We hope you found this episode
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00:16:36
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