00:00:00
Start off with a
00:00:00
hybrid, maybe three in the office,
two at home, and see how it goes.
00:00:04
Measure it, study it.
00:00:06
Right, because we are trying
to figure it out in terms of companies,
00:00:09
organizations, industries of what may work
and what may not.
00:00:12
Now, other companies and leaders
00:00:15
have taken a much firm, firmer stance like
we're going to be in the office or not.
00:00:19
But even even you've had you've even seen
sort of a little bit of resistance
00:00:22
or pushback on that as well.
00:00:24
Welcome to The Ripple Effect,
00:00:26
the podcast that takes you on a journey
through the minds at work and faculty.
00:00:30
I'm your host, Delany,
00:00:31
and in each episode
we'll be diving deep into the inspiration
00:00:35
behind the groundbreaking research
that Wharton professors have conducted
00:00:39
and exploring how their findings
resonate with the world today.
00:00:43
Well,
the topic of time management has always
00:00:45
been a part of the discussion
of having a successful career.
00:00:48
But some of those elements have changed
00:00:50
due to what we experienced
during the coronavirus pandemic
00:00:53
and the fact that remote work has become
a more integral part of our lives.
00:00:57
Pleasure to be joined here in studio
by Michael
00:00:58
Parke, assistant professor of management
here at the Wharton School.
00:01:01
Michael, great to see you.
Thanks so much for having me.
00:01:04
So the dynamics of of obviously,
time management
00:01:08
are rooted in our history
as a country, as a culture, etc..
00:01:13
How do you think, though,
it has kind of developed
00:01:16
with the pandemic and and all that
we've experienced over the last few years?
00:01:20
Absolutely.
00:01:21
I mean,
I think that in said time management,
00:01:24
I often even like to broaden it out
to self management.
00:01:27
Right.
00:01:27
And when you have structure, which
we had a lot of in terms of going to work,
00:01:33
you have your commute, you get to work,
you have an office, you have a routine.
00:01:37
And then when the pandemic just sort of
changed that for so many people,
00:01:41
where you have to find a new structure
at home,
00:01:44
a different office,
you have different distractions,
00:01:47
you have some less distractions
because your colleagues,
00:01:49
but you might have kids,
you might have a lot of other devices
00:01:53
at your at your house that you may not
have had access to at work.
00:01:56
It was really learning
how to find routines and structure
00:02:00
and manage your time at a home office,
especially if you weren't used to that,
00:02:04
especially if you didn't work at home
before the pandemic.
00:02:07
So I think it really radically shifted
how people figured out
00:02:11
how to be disciplined,
how to do their work
00:02:14
and how to allocate their time
in a different space in a different way.
00:02:18
Once we shifted a lot to remote work.
00:02:20
What do you think then are
the expectations as we move forward here?
00:02:23
Because obviously the pandemic for
the most part is behind us.
00:02:28
We still
00:02:29
have remote work as a component,
but you have more companies,
00:02:33
you know, as we move
further away from this, that are starting
00:02:35
to call workers back into the office
more full time.
00:02:39
How do you think that dynamic
is going to play out here?
00:02:42
Is it going to be company by company
or are we going to see
00:02:45
more of a return to what we remember
pre-pandemic?
00:02:49
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the
that's one of the key questions out there.
00:02:52
And I can't say
I have a strong prediction answer.
00:02:54
I think what you see is different
companies trying different things.
00:02:58
And one of one of the professors
00:03:01
at Stanford who's studied
a lot of the remote work, Nik Blum,
00:03:05
he's his advice in the past year
or so has been to companies
00:03:08
is to kind of experiment. Right.
00:03:10
Start off with a hybrid,
maybe three in the office, two at home,
00:03:14
and see how it goes.
00:03:15
Measure it, study it.
00:03:16
Right, because we are trying
to figure it out in terms of companies,
00:03:20
organizations, industries of what may work
and what may not.
00:03:23
Now, other companies and leaders
00:03:26
have taken a much firm, firmer stance like
we're going to be in the office or not.
00:03:29
But you even even
00:03:30
you've had you've even seen
00:03:31
sort of a little bit of resistance
or pushback on that as well.
00:03:34
So I think right now
we're trying to figure it out.
00:03:36
And I don't have a strong prediction
of what's going to win out.
00:03:39
If I had to take a guess,
00:03:40
I think overall what we're going to see
is much more flexibility, meaning
00:03:44
that we're going to give workers
more flexibility of where they work
00:03:47
and how they work
than they have in the past.
00:03:49
And I think overall, that is a good thing
for for workers in their productivity,
00:03:53
in their engagement,
as well as for companies.
00:03:56
But we'll see.
00:03:57
We'll see what the data shakes up.
00:03:59
But it's very interesting
that the voice of the employee of the
00:04:02
worker seemingly has more
00:04:07
strength
00:04:07
behind it
now than maybe we've ever seen it before.
00:04:11
And maybe that's in part
a byproduct of what we're seeing
00:04:13
with all the unionization
activity as well.
00:04:15
But the voice of the employee really
is carrying a lot of weight at the moment.
00:04:19
I mean, I would definitely say
it seems that way anecdotally, at least
00:04:23
right where the stories you hear
and the leaders I talk to and,
00:04:28
you know,
we can't get workers back to work.
00:04:30
What do you mean?
00:04:31
How do they have a choice
in the first place?
00:04:32
Right. Like, can't you just make them?
00:04:34
And I think that's in spirit of one.
00:04:38
You did see this galvanization of,
well, we're all trying to figure out
00:04:43
how to cope,
how to battle this pandemic together.
00:04:46
And we want we know people are struggling.
00:04:48
We know it's
very difficult, it's uncertain.
00:04:51
And you had this sort of sense
00:04:54
of purpose in us banding together
and helping each other out.
00:04:57
And I think there's been some lingering
effects there with, well,
00:05:01
what makes sense this
like when you're forced to totally shift
00:05:04
gears, it's an opportunity
for companies and employees
00:05:07
and leaders to reflect, well,
what makes sense?
00:05:09
Does it make sense for me to spend hours
commuting when I could spend that time
00:05:13
productively on my computer?
00:05:15
Now that we've figured out
how to work from a remote standpoint.
00:05:18
And so I think that both business logic,
00:05:22
but also like human care and well-being,
which is also been a center
00:05:26
the past few years as well,
those forces merging together,
00:05:29
I think has led to this open
conversation of, well, let's
00:05:33
try to craft something that works for you
and for us as a company.
00:05:36
Whereas before, I don't think
it was malicious or intentional.
00:05:40
It was just what we did.
00:05:42
We just went to work. Right, Right.
00:05:44
And there are obviously
I think it's also a scenario of
00:05:48
it really depends on the job
that you have in the sector.
00:05:51
Maybe they can totally because obviously
somebody who's a firefighter,
00:05:54
police officer can't do that job
00:05:56
remote, somebody that's a banker
that's in you know, in that field.
00:06:00
I think the expectation is
a lot of companies want them in there.
00:06:03
There are jobs that will work remote
00:06:05
and there are jobs that just won't work
remote.
00:06:06
Yeah, absolutely.
00:06:07
And I think, you know, there's fears
both ways, right?
00:06:10
There's fears of
if you don't let people work remote,
00:06:15
will that just drive dissatisfaction?
00:06:17
Will they then try to go to jobs
that have more flexibility?
00:06:20
But then you have the other side,
the fear of like, well, if we don't bring
00:06:23
people together, like I know
leaders in particular are worried about
00:06:26
maintaining that culture,
maintaining those relationships, building
00:06:30
where work is central and people are
focused and you're building those bonds.
00:06:34
And right now,
at least with the current technology,
00:06:36
we don't have a good substitute
for getting people together in person.
00:06:40
That still does seem to be
the strongest driver of those bonds.
00:06:43
That cohesion
and that those little things that do
00:06:47
kind of make the place,
make the culture, the place and so forth.
00:06:50
Yeah, the term you used
before self-management, I think is
00:06:53
is very interesting for this dynamic
that we're seeing play out
00:06:57
in that truly it is because when you're
somebody that is working from home
00:07:02
now it seems more than ever
that we see the workday broken up
00:07:07
and that that allows you
to obviously still do your job,
00:07:12
but it allows you to,
if you have small kids, to be able to
00:07:16
take them and take care of them at home,
or if you have to run an errand,
00:07:19
take care of that.
00:07:20
And that's a dynamic
that is obviously it feels very different
00:07:24
to what we've had in
and around the workplace.
00:07:27
But as you alluded
to, companies are accepting of this. Now.
00:07:30
That's a part of the different mindset
as well.
00:07:32
Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:33
I mean, I think when you have the freedom
and flexibility, as long as you
00:07:37
you know, the key the key glue here
is that trust, right?
00:07:40
Where employers trust their employees
to get their work done,
00:07:44
to not be slacking off,
to contribute to the company.
00:07:48
And then it's like, okay, if our goals are
aligned, our priorities are aligned,
00:07:52
then we trust you to structure your days
the way that works best for you.
00:07:56
So if you need to work early
before your kids get up,
00:07:59
then take a couple of hours
to get them to school.
00:08:01
But then you're going to make up that time
and deliver the work
00:08:04
like that works for us.
00:08:05
You know,
now there's coordination costs, right?
00:08:08
Because if you do need to integrate with
people, schedules and diaries can be more
00:08:12
challenging to sort of align and things
like that, which is another problem.
00:08:16
But if it's sort of this individual level
relationship with the individual
00:08:20
employee in the organization, yeah,
that trust is that glue to kind of
00:08:24
we trust you, you can self-manage.
00:08:26
We're going to
we're going to evaluate you on
00:08:29
are you delivering the work
at a high level?
00:08:32
And that's what matters to us.
00:08:34
So let me play devil's
advocate here for a moment,
00:08:36
because part of the discussion as well
is, okay,
00:08:39
we're allowing people to do that
and it works for them.
00:08:42
But you've also taken the workday
and you've basically lengthened it out
00:08:46
in many cases to where
it's like a 14 hour window
00:08:50
instead of being an eight hour window, or
that that dynamic may vary a little bit.
00:08:53
Yeah.
00:08:54
And there are people who are out there
that are concerned that
00:08:57
we were so connected to our work
beforehand.
00:09:00
We've kind of
it feels like even increase that more.
00:09:03
Yeah, you say what to that.
00:09:04
So I think there's two.
00:09:06
So I think that is definitely happening
and there can be a fear that
00:09:11
scholars have looked at this
00:09:12
in terms of job creep, right,
where you get increasing demands.
00:09:15
But there's also time creep
where the work doesn't turn off, you know,
00:09:18
and and I don't have commute
to like transition from work to home.
00:09:23
I'm just at home.
00:09:24
And so now I can check my phone
during dinner and like great.
00:09:27
So I think there's two mechanisms
to kind of regulate
00:09:30
and that's
why self-management is so important.
00:09:31
One is ourselves, like are we conscious
of what we're doing in our actions
00:09:37
to make sure
we have the structure of like,
00:09:39
okay, what are our work hours
and what our non-work hours
00:09:41
and are holding ourselves
accountable to those?
00:09:44
Right?
00:09:44
And so one is on ourselves to set up those
00:09:48
those mechanisms to be
00:09:50
disciplined,
to not allowing the time to creep to work.
00:09:53
The other is culturally right.
00:09:54
And you see organizations do this as well,
where some at the extreme
00:09:58
end are mandating.
00:09:59
You cannot email at this time. Right.
00:10:01
That's the strong and others
sort of use social norms right.
00:10:06
Where they the norm is like,
okay, don't email people after these hours
00:10:10
or don't expect a response. Right?
00:10:13
We we expect a response
during certain hours.
00:10:15
But after that, there's
no expectation of response.
00:10:18
So that's culturally built in.
00:10:20
So those two mechanisms help deal
with this concern or the actuality of,
00:10:25
wow, you're working a lot longer
and that can have a cost,
00:10:28
I guess then it's going to be interesting
to see this play out as we move forward.
00:10:34
The baby boomer
00:10:35
generation is coming,
you know, kind of they have transitioned
00:10:39
and have this component
mixed in all the other generations.
00:10:42
But the younger generations,
as we move forward, are going to really
00:10:46
this is going to what they're going
to understand this to be the norm.
00:10:50
And I think that's going to be
00:10:51
the unique dynamic to watch out
is how they react to this moving forward.
00:10:55
And if any of those dynamics change
how much they
00:10:59
I don't know
if I want to use the word revolt,
00:11:01
but they you know,
00:11:02
they battle back against what is perceived
to be not the norm anymore.
00:11:06
I mean, I think I think it's super
interesting question. Right.
00:11:08
And at least, you know,
when I teach my undergraduate students
00:11:11
and we're having lunch
and I hear a lot of them say they're
00:11:14
they're excited about their internships,
which are in-person.
00:11:18
Right.
00:11:19
And you did see some data that the younger
people who are maybe single
00:11:23
new professionals in these offices,
like they were the ones that wanted in
00:11:27
work,
00:11:28
in-person work more often than people
that might have established families
00:11:31
and so forth, because you have different
priorities right.
00:11:34
And so I think that both A,
what are they interested in, But.
00:11:39
B, Yeah, having the opportunity
or flexibility to pursue what they want
00:11:44
to pursue in terms of work arrangement,
I think that's important to everyone.
00:11:48
And I could definitely see younger people
00:11:50
maybe demanding,
but also trying to find a job that offers
00:11:54
that that ability to seek the type of work
and arrangement that they want.
00:11:58
Yes, I think that's going to be a new like
that's when you're looking for jobs,
00:12:02
right?
You're like have cultural fit, job fit.
00:12:05
Does it matter skills?
00:12:05
I think work
arrangement is probably a criteria
00:12:08
that's moved up there for younger people
than it was in the past, where
00:12:11
everything was just kind
of assumed to be in person or remote.
00:12:14
Right? Yeah. So
00:12:16
I'm going to ask you somewhat of a
theoretical question.
00:12:18
Yeah.
00:12:19
Because we have become such kind
00:12:23
of connected to all of the technology
that we have in our lives.
00:12:27
And I've I've often wondered
whether or not
00:12:30
this change around
remote work might have happened
00:12:34
even without the pandemic,
00:12:36
because of the connectivity
that we have through technology
00:12:39
and because of all the platforms,
it may have taken a lot longer to occur.
00:12:44
But maybe whether or not it still would
have happened to a degree down the road.
00:12:47
Yeah, fascinating.
00:12:49
I, I think that
00:12:55
so there would
00:12:56
there would have had to be some impetus
00:12:59
for for changing or moving that way.
00:13:02
And when everyone was forced to and
then really like you don't have a choice.
00:13:08
Right. Or again
00:13:10
just we were home.
00:13:10
There was no other option.
00:13:12
There was no other option
for certain injuries
00:13:13
that we we always have to acknowledge,
like certain industries
00:13:16
didn't have that luxury,
00:13:18
didn't have the choice, were still risking
their lives, were still on the ground
00:13:21
for it. Like we have to acknowledge that.
00:13:23
But for those organizations
that had that choice,
00:13:26
those industries
that had the choice, they were forced to
00:13:29
it made it simpler for leaders to just
00:13:32
accept that choice and figure it out with
00:13:35
they so all their fears of like,
will this work?
00:13:38
Yeah, right.
00:13:39
They didn't have to think about it.
00:13:41
They have to worry about it.
00:13:42
And now that's what I think
00:13:44
you see with this uncertainty of like,
do we bring people back to work or not?
00:13:48
Because all of the fears are at play
and they have to make those decisions.
00:13:51
Now. So maybe if there was impetus of
like we could save so much money
00:13:56
without renting,
you know, Manhattan real estate prices
00:14:00
or commercial rent or things
that like maybe moved that was try it.
00:14:03
But I think the I think
where you probably would have seen it
00:14:08
eventually is startup companies
disruptive companies
00:14:11
where they're trying this right
and it's working
00:14:14
and then older companies, more established
companies were like learning from them
00:14:18
and implementing those policies.
00:14:20
That's probably where you could have seen
this change occur over time.
00:14:22
So you bring up something very interesting
about the real estate component.
00:14:26
And realistically, even though we have
this dynamic that it's already changed.
00:14:30
Yes. And we have remote work and we're
obviously talking about time management.
00:14:34
Yeah.
00:14:35
That there are still elements of this
that are still yet to play out,
00:14:38
you know, repercussions from it
or downstream impact. Yes.
00:14:41
That we're going to be seeing play out
realistically over the next
00:14:45
ten or 20 years,
aren't we? Yes, absolutely.
00:14:48
And and there's opportunities
and challenges with that.
00:14:52
Right.
00:14:52
Depending on the industries,
depending on business models,
00:14:55
there's going to be new innovation.
There's going to be new creativity.
00:14:57
When you bring in
00:14:59
artificial intelligence and all the tools
we're seeing there, Right.
00:15:02
Like, will we even manage our own time?
00:15:04
Or we're going to outsource
00:15:05
that or outsource that to computers in
AI who can just do that more efficiently?
00:15:09
And you see applications
like trying to do that and trying
00:15:12
to save that time for people
to do your scheduling for you.
00:15:16
Right.
00:15:17
And I don't think we're quite there yet
in terms of the ability of these tools,
00:15:21
but we're going to get there.
00:15:22
And so, yeah,
I think there's a lot of fascinating
00:15:24
questions of like,
how is this all going to play out?
00:15:26
And and, you know, what has been true,
I think, for people
00:15:31
for a long time is always interested
in ways to improving yourself
00:15:36
in your productivity. Right.
00:15:38
And time management self manage
that often at that.
00:15:40
And so a lot of the tools we we do have
been things something as simple as like
00:15:46
setting up routines
around planning your time you know
00:15:48
planning your weeks, scheduling
your priorities, going back to an old
00:15:52
Stephen Covey quote from seven Habits
of Highly Effective People.
00:15:55
Schedule your priorities right?
00:15:57
Otherwise your time will fill up
and you won't be getting done
00:16:00
the meaningful work.
00:16:01
So planning, discipline,
00:16:04
having accountability mechanisms
so that you don't detract from
00:16:09
fall through to resistance, but
that takes you away from your priorities.
00:16:13
So I think those things
will always be constant,
00:16:15
but then you're going to have these tools
that might be able to assist you
00:16:20
in doing those things more efficiently
00:16:21
and more effectively,
which is also very exciting.
00:16:24
Yeah, Michael, great to talk with you.
Thanks very much.
00:16:26
Thank you so much. You got it.
00:16:27
Michael Parke, who is assistant professor
of management here at the Wharton School.
00:16:32
Thank you for listening
to the ripple effect.
00:16:33
We hope you found this episode
informative and engaging.
00:16:36
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00:16:39
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