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Our Guest today is uh Pat Harker
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president of the University of Delaware
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and we're going to speak to him about
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the challenges facing uh higher
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education Pat thank you so much for
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joining us today at knowledge at Wharton
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well M it's great to be here so uh
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you've written this really
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thought-provoking paper and I wonder if
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we could start by looking at the costs
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of higher education and and why they
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seem to be soaring uh as University
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education a good investment today yes
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it's still a good investment but a lot
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of people are now questioning it right
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after the recession that we've gone
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through and people are coming out with
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$100,000 in debt they may not have the
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job a job at all or it's they're
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underemployed and so there's a lot of
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questioning the the evidence still says
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it's it's worth it but you can
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understand why people are questioning
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this today so what are some of the aren
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factors that are driving costs up and
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the uh uh and what have universities
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done to try and curb them well there's a
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lot of factors but if you look at the
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main factor it's low labor productivity
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as defined by an economist I have to be
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careful when I say this to a faculty
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member they say hey I'm productive what
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do you mean so I have to say is defined
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by an economist and this goes back to
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will Bal Mall's idea he published in
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1967 Bal Mall's cost disease economies
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have sectors that have low labor
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productivity High labor productivity on
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average in inflation is a mix of those
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but the ones who have low labor
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productivity will always have inflation
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higher than the average right so so when
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we talk about productivity in in most
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Industries uh Information Technology
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often factors into the picture uh do you
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have a sense of what the impact of uh
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Innovation uh information technology has
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been on education sure but let me step
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back and not talk about education but
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think about Healthcare so we in higher
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education are not like healthcare and
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that we've consumed a lot of technology
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to improve quality but not really with
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an eye to reducing cost until recently
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right I mean once uh infl the healthcare
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reaches 25% of GDP people are start to
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say whoa let's let's think about this
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and we need to reduce costs we've done
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the same thing in higher education we
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put in new projectors new technology but
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we've really not fundamentally changed
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the way we educate and that I think is
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the key that technology alone is not
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going to solve the productivity problem
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technology enables new processes and
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those new processes will then deliver
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lower cost higher quality what might be
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some examples of that of lower cost
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higher quality I think what we're
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starting to see emerge are things like
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mukes so mukes can play a part of the
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role there we're starting to see a lot
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more problem-based learning Interactive
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Learning where students are learning by
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doing not by by being lectured to the
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old days and you think about forget
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Information Technology the way we tried
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to improve productivity in the past was
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to build 300 person lecture Halls right
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that does improve labor productivity
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whether it improves learning is really
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the question I raised in the paper that
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we've
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developed very efficient teaching
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machines and that's that's okay if
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teaching equals learning but it doesn't
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and it increasingly doesn't in this
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generation that is technology enabled
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and that's what we need to try to break
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and there are examples lots of examples
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of people experimenting with new
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learning modalities not necessarily new
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teaching modalities and I think there is
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a difference and it's a fundamental
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difference right uh and and then come
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back in a minute to uh you know the
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difference between teaching and learning
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but I'd go back like to go back to your
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paper for a minute uh where where you
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write there is both hope and fear that
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it Innovations will end the university
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as we know it and why why is that sure
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so so clay Christensen with disruptive
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innovation has been talking a lot about
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this in the case of higher education
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that the incumbent institutions us uh we
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think everything's fine and for those
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who are heavily owed it probably is for
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a while but for those who are not there
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are a lot of forces that are changing
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the market first the demographic decline
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in the United States so the college age
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cohort that we traditionally service is
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in Decline we're also seeing more first
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generation lower income students coming
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into high education so we can't charge
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what we used to charge and we also are
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now seeing in addition to all those
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forces we're starting to see the world
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wake up to higher education building new
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campuses in China building new campuses
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in India and so the flow to the US is
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starting to change as well so all that's
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gotten universities to start to think
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about well GE how do we become more
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productive right and and and one of the
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things you suggest in the paper is to
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shift the emphasis from teaching uh to
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learning right and and I wonder if we
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can talk about how the design of of the
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educational institutions can be changed
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so that the emphasis is more on the
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learner than on the teacher so let me
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give you a very specific example we
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opened up a new science building last
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summer and it's all based all the
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classrooms are based around the concept
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of problem-based learning the classrooms
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are 48 seat classrooms with two 24 seat
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Labs on either side students walk in for
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2hour sessions they're learning some mix
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of biology and chemistry they don't know
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if it's biology they don't know if it's
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chemistry what they know is their
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problems are trying to solve that are
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related to biology and chemistry they
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work out the hypothesis immediately get
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out of their seats go into the
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laboratory and start to test solutions
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to the problems that were presented in
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the class and then come back very
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interactive very different than say the
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chemistry you and I took in college
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where we took a 300 person lecture and
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then later in the week we took a lab and
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the lab sometimes made no sense with
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respect to the lecture and we were
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supposed to figure it out problem-based
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learning changes all that that was an
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efficient way to teach right have the
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300 person lecture and the laboratory
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separate this is really learner Centric
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really saying what's the most efficient
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way for students to learn that science
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and make it sticky right that not only
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do they learn it but they're not
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cramming it it stays with them because
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they discovered it themselves right and
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and and so do you think universities
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will be able to use these kinds of
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techniques so that they're no longer
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teaching factories as you call them yes
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I think what the only way to do that
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though is to take the material that is
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commod can be commodified right in other
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words it can be packaged up simple stuff
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basic calculus basic concepts and use
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other tools whether it's a moo or
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frankly you can go to Old School
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Technology a traditional textbook and do
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Competency Based testing on those things
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things students learning on their own
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and using class time in a much more
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active manner than we do today right so
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as we think about uh these changes that
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are required in education are there any
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lessons to be learned from other service
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Industries oh sure sure I mean one is
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there's always the great hope that
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technolog is going to save us all right
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it's not true again go go back to
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robotic surgery lots of evidence has
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come out in the last uh few years that
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in except for very few cases the robotic
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surgery for many different disease types
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is no more efficient than the
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traditional laparoscopic surgery with a
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surgeon's hands but try to be a hospital
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today without the robot so sometimes we
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just consume technology with no real
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benefit so we need to learn that we also
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need to learn that again it comes back
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to changing processes the way we do
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things I mean it's standard when new
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technology comes in that we try to lay
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technology on Old processes think of
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banking me used to be great fights in
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the banking industry which I studied
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extensively when I was here at Wharton
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that the the ATMs and the internet
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banking was going to destroy the bank
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because everything was about the branch
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and everybody's Focus was well it'll
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destroy the branch we can't let that
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happen well think about the analog in
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higher education all these new
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technologies are going to destroy the
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traditional classroom no it's just going
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to change what you do in that classroom
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just like internet banking and ATMs
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changed what you did in the in the
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branch one of the concepts that you
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explain in your paper is the customer
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efficiency right uh I wonder if we could
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explain what exactly that is and how it
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will change education sure so if you
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think about Services unlike
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manufacturing when you bought your
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Toyota or your Honda you didn't screw
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the bolts on the car right you bought
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the car you drive it the difference with
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a service any kind of service
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professional service healthare education
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is that the consumer is part of the
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production process right they're in
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there making it with you right if the
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consumer doesn't take their health
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seriously there's nothing a doctor can
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do if a student doesn't take their
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education seriously there's really
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nothing a professor can do so it's
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really focused on not making the system
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efficient from our perspective the
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provider but making the system efficient
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from the customer or students
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perspective so that they can be very
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effective in providing their own
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education because ultimately they have
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to educate themselves we just don't pour
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knowledge into their heads if if
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technology is just a tool why have so
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many educational institutions almost
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made it the Beall and end all of
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innovation and education yeah but again
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if you you think outside of Education
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lots of Industries have gone through
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this transformation right where
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technolog is going to revolutionize
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everything they realize it flopped then
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they get around to really
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rethinking the processes we got a lot of
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Legacy Concepts running around in our
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head about what works and what doesn't
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and so I don't think we're any different
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than any other industry particularly any
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other service industry we're in the
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process of this transformation some of
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that transformation frankly is being
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fueled by forces outside of higher
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education another Major Force or outside
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of traditional higher education is the
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fact that the Venture Capital flow into
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the higher education space is increasing
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in rapidly because they see an
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opportunity here remember it's not just
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the us around the world the middle class
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is emerging the first thing the middle
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class around the world wants is educate
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their children and the traditional
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campuses we can't build them fast enough
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or big enough to to educate in the
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traditional way and they see that
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opportunity and we as the traditional
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higher education institutions also need
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to think about that opportunity because
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part of our mission is to serve that
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global glal market so what role does the
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design of the curriculum play in this
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transformation and and and uh to to go
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one step further traditionally it's
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educational institutions that have
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defined what the curriculum should be in
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a learner Centric environment what role
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should the learner play in designing the
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curriculum that's a very good question
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so start with my my old colleague Bob
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zamsky who here at The Graduate School
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of Education at Penn now in his recent
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book checklist for change he says it's
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all about the curriculum it is so you
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think about the curriculum it's really
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the design it's really it really
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constrains what you can do so imagine
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the following scenario you're working at
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say o apple and your boss comes in and
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you're part of a product development
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team and they say we need the next big
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thing well what's the price point for it
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we don't
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know that would never happen they'd have
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to know at least what kind of costs
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we're talking about for the product that
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that they want to deliver think about
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how the curricula are developed in
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universities faculty committees come up
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with ideas they toss them over to the
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administration and they say make it so
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and without any concept of what that's
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going to cost that's all that also has
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to
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change what do you mean by
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ideation uh large frame pattern
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recognition and complex communication
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yeah so in a recent book from colleagues
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at MIT the second Machine age they talk
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about the fact that the machines keep
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coming right and Lites um
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notwithstanding we're not going to stop
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it anytime soon so they asked the
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question what do human beings do today
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and in the foreseeable future better
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than Computing technology and they come
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up with three things ideation truly new
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creative
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thinking not just combining ideas which
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a machine can do take a little of this a
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little of that come up with a new but
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truly new ideas if you were out of the
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box ideas right the second is large
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frame or large scale pattern recognition
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so machines can do a lot of pattern
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recognition but putting together
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technical social political economic
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cultural factors and to try to come up
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with a solution to an issue that's hard
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that's what we we human beings do and
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the third is complex communication
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machines are getting better and better
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communicating but still I'd still put
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for high-end sales a human being in
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front of another human being to sell
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because they read the nuances the
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non-verbal Communications it's those
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things that are very important for
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students to learn and you have to ask
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yourself then what percentage of our
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curricula are devoted to those probably
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not much and we then have to think about
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that in redesigning the curriculum for
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the
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future well there there's uh one other
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part of your paper that I found really
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fascinating which is uh uh deals with
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whether education institutions should
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encourage students to
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dream
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uh how and uh why and how uh should that
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happen so if faculty time is being used
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in a teaching Factory I'll call it where
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we're just crunching classes through and
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no times being used to help students
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faculty mentoring helping guiding
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students then The Faculty really can't
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help that student dream because they're
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so focused on the production engine of
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just teaching the classes and this
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changes people's lives I would not be
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doing what I do today if it wasn't for a
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faculty member John leapor who passed
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away recently in civil engineering at
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this University who took me under his
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wing in my junior year and gave me a
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chance to do
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research I never even knew that was a an
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opportunity that was available to me he
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opened up my world he helped me to dream
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in a very different way that's what I I
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talk about in this paper is freeing up
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the time to do the basic get the basics
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can be done in other ways enabled by
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technology and really changing the model
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so that faculty are spending more of
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their time on that kind of coaching the
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mentoring the dreaming with the students
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right know uh as as this education space
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goes through all these changes you
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referred earlier to the you know entry
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of uh more and more Venture Capital into
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this place uh there are some very
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interesting startups that are trying to
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deal with the same issues that uh you
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know the big established institutions
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are trying to Grapple with and one of
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them is minurva right I wonder if you
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could tell us a little bit more about
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minurva what its model is what its
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successes and failures might have been
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so far and what lessons that might have
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for other schools to learn from so
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manura is a startup it's started by a
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fellow Ben Nelson who's A Wharton
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undergrad Alum uh I full disclosure I'm
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on his Advisory Board along with several
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others including uh Larry Summers and
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Lee Schulman and Bob kery the former
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Senator but it's really Ben that's been
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driving this and he has Steve klin the
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former dean of social sciences at
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Harvard who's now joined him and Steve
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being a cognitive scientist has really
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developed a learning platform based on
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the what we know about cognition about
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learning we don't learn by sitting in a
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classroom half asleep we learn by active
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engagement Active Learning so the whole
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model is based around that there are
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physical campuses where students will
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live but their classroom will be their
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laptop with 18 other students where they
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can't take a break for 45 minutes
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they're engaged for 45 minutes in a very
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deep way so they're bringing in their
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pilot class to San Francisco this year
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to shake out the the software uh they
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have four classes they're teaching
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manura has part Competency Based so they
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have students will need to graduate with
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competency in two languages other than
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and their native tongue University won't
00:17:00
teach that they're Rosetta Stone there
00:17:02
are other tools out there to do that
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they're going to spend their time on
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those issues we talked about earlier
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ideation large frame pattern recognition
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and communication four classes formal
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reasoning empirical
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reasoning uh complex system so how all
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those factors intersect and multimodal
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communication critical reading critical
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writing notice it's a heavy dose of the
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liberal arts but not packaged in the way
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we typically do the liberal arts but
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it's helping students to really think
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critically what impact do you think
00:17:34
these kinds of models will have on the
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will they truly succeed in disrupting
00:17:39
the existing educational establishment
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they could um you know not only disrupt
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maybe not the traditional educational
00:17:47
establishment as much
00:17:49
as take up the growth that's going to be
00:17:52
happening around the world right because
00:17:54
if this model is more successful we
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can't build a lot of pen depends it's
00:17:58
very expensive to build a university
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like this the manura model is scalable
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and scalable to serve that growing need
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around the
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world uh should
00:18:08
universities consider Outsourcing
00:18:11
services to one another and what
00:18:12
implications might that have yeah that's
00:18:14
a good question so we've been
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Outsourcing for a long time right
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textbook
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manufacturers still package up
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PowerPoint slides with their textbook
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they give instructors manuals with
00:18:27
problems they a lot of Faculty around
00:18:29
the world that just take the PowerPoint
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slides and the instructor's manuals and
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deliver the course auk is just a modern
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version of
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that but there's various forms of
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Outsourcing so you could do that or you
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could actually Outsource to a third
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party like for example manerva is doing
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to teach language the basics of language
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to a Rosetta Stone or like companies
00:18:49
there's another form of Outsourcing
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though that I really worry about one of
00:18:52
our missions particular as research
00:18:54
universities is not only to generate
00:18:57
knowledge but to sustain it to protect
00:18:59
it to pass it on to Future
00:19:01
Generations well some fields are
00:19:04
cyclical right when I was a student here
00:19:07
at this University in the 80s lot in 70s
00:19:10
a lot of interest in Russian right not
00:19:12
so much in the 90s and 2000s now it's
00:19:15
actually coming back and so we need to
00:19:18
maintain that capability but it's hard
00:19:21
to do if you're a university
00:19:22
administrator and you've got three to
00:19:24
four students in a class studying
00:19:25
Russian but why don't you use technology
00:19:27
in a simple way to create virtual
00:19:29
classrooms and consortia of universities
00:19:32
so gather say in this case all the other
00:19:35
ivys to teach low R so instead of having
00:19:38
three four people we have three times
00:19:41
eight in the classroom and now we can
00:19:43
afford to keep that alive I think that
00:19:45
form of Outsourcing has not really been
00:19:47
done much there are places where it's
00:19:49
been done and it's been done very
00:19:51
successfully so clearly as as we've
00:19:53
discussed there's a a huge amount of
00:19:55
change that is required in higher
00:19:57
education who do you think are going to
00:19:59
be the primary change agents who will
00:20:02
drive this change well the faculty have
00:20:05
to believe in the change but don't they
00:20:07
have the most to
00:20:09
lose that's a good question they might
00:20:11
or they also have the most to gain right
00:20:13
it depends on right it depends on how
00:20:15
you look at it so I know for example
00:20:18
several faculty who have gotten deeply
00:20:19
immersed in muks the massive open online
00:20:22
courses and I asked one of them once uh
00:20:24
who was visiting our campus I said why
00:20:26
are you doing he's a friend of mine they
00:20:28
said this is the future and I want to
00:20:29
get ready for the future so not all
00:20:32
faculty are going to do it but that like
00:20:33
anything they're going to be early
00:20:35
adopters ones who see what the future
00:20:37
looks like and they want to be part of
00:20:38
it you don't need a lot you just need a
00:20:41
few to create the Skunk Works
00:20:43
experimental lab to to prove the
00:20:45
concept and I have one final question if
00:20:48
you look five or 10 years out what
00:20:51
changes do you see on the horizon uh for
00:20:54
higher education uh what kind of action
00:20:57
plans do you see
00:20:58
universities having to put in place and
00:21:02
if you're optimistic or
00:21:04
pessimistic uh what are the reasons for
00:21:06
that I'll start with the optimism and
00:21:08
pessimism on both it depends on where
00:21:10
you stand so I mean if you are a small
00:21:16
College uh that or a state university
00:21:19
non-research State University we're
00:21:20
already seeing Moody S&P is downgrading
00:21:23
the debt of these institutions saying
00:21:25
you're not going to survive so there's
00:21:27
concern if I was sitting there I'd be
00:21:29
very concerned uh that either I can can
00:21:32
I change quickly enough to make it uh I
00:21:36
think for universities that are
00:21:38
currently strong and robust uh like like
00:21:43
any industry the win or take all Society
00:21:46
does tend to exist so for those if they
00:21:49
do the right things if they seiz the
00:21:52
opportunities that are in front of them
00:21:54
if they seiz the opportunities to change
00:21:56
which is a very hard thing to to do
00:21:58
right we as human beings don't like
00:21:59
change fundamentally uh then they will
00:22:02
do very well otherwise they may join the
00:22:05
others in Decline and that's what I
00:22:07
worry about because in the end of the
00:22:10
day the higher education system in this
00:22:12
country is the gem or one of the gems of
00:22:16
the United States of America and higher
00:22:18
education is critical to Economic
00:22:20
Development and growth all around the
00:22:21
world we've got to get this
00:22:24
right thanks so much Pat really
00:22:26
appreciate you speaking to knowledge
00:22:27
word thanks M
00:22:32
[Music]
00:22:51
cool
