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Dan Loney: What if you're hired by a
company, but somewhere along the
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way, you find out that you
weren't the first choice for the
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job. How do you react to that
news, and how does the company
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or the employees react to either
you knowing the news, or them
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knowing it as well? Samir
Nurmohamed is an Associate
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Professor of Management here at
the Wharton School, and he's
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part of research that looked
into this component, and he
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joins us right now. Samir,
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great to talk to you again.
How are you?
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I'm doing well. Thanks
for having me, Dan.
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I guess let's start with,
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what was it that piqued your
interest to look at this?
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Yeah, it's really interesting. So I
have a— I have an interest in
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the topic of underdogs. It's
this very idea that— and we've
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actually talked about it before.
This very idea that when you're
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not expected to succeed, what
happens? A lot of prior research
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says you're not gonna end up
doing well, and what I found in
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my work is that you can actually
be motivated and perform better.
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So along those lines, I started
thinking of other instances in
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organizations where people might
perceive that they're the
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underdog. And one common context
is a hiring context. You're
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hired for a role, but you
weren't the first choice. So
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sometimes this is communicated
directly to you. So like, for
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example, at Wharton, our
students are sometimes on a wait
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list, for example, for either
the school or for their
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employers. And sometimes it just
happens more indirectly. And I
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wanted to find out, well, what are
the implications of that? So I
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got a little bit curious and
started studying it.
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But you would think that
once somebody does find out that
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they were a second choice, that
it probably does throw some
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unique dynamics into the mix,
especially if you're in an
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office setting.
- Absolutely, right?
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I mean, because very
fascinating to see, especially
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depending on what side of the
coin you're on, if you're the
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person who's hired as what I
call the alternate choice, well,
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what happens? Are you more
reluctant to talk to people, or
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are you very proactive, because
you want to make connections and
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build relationships and get, you
know, a lay of the land of the
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organization? But then on the
flip side, as a co-worker, as a
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leader, what happens? Right? Do
you start saying, "Well, I need
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to really help this person more
to get them onboarded," or are you
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little bit more distant from
them, because you're not sure if
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they're as qualified for the
role as someone else that he
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might have liked during the process.
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So it really does create these dynamics.
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So let's take— through each one of these
segments here. The employee,
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when they find out that they
weren't the first choice, what's
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the most likely reaction,
feeling, emotion that they feel?
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Yeah. So what we found in our
research— and this is a study I
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did with Zoe Schwingel-Sauer,
who's a PhD student at Michigan,
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but a former undergrad here at
the University of Pennsylvania.
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What we found is that people
feel actually less socially
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integrated in their work groups.
And this is kind of interesting,
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because in some of my other
research on underdogs, we found
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out that people are very
motivated. They want to prove
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others wrong. But what we found
in our research is that people
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feel like they're less
integrated in the group. They
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feel like they belong less. And
this makes them feel a little
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bit more distant from their
coworkers, and this has
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implications for their
proactivity, especially in the
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first days, first weeks on the
job, in terms of whether they
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get feedback from others and
whether they're proactive or not.
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So what about the employer?
Because the dynamics of making
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sure that they have the best
kind of working scenario, the
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teamwork, all of these different
components, it has to throw a
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variety of different challenges
their way.
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Yeah, absolutely. So this is one of
the things we were kind of
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curious about. You know, how do
organizations handle this? What
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happens? So as part of one of
our studies, we tried to find
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out, well, how do employees find
out or discover or perceive that
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they're the alternate choice?
And we found out that this kind
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of happens one of— in a variety
of ways, but two key factors
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were the following. One was, this
either happens before they start
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their role. For example, the
organization tells them in some
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way. Or it happens after they
start their role. And you can
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imagine that there's a different
dynamic to each of those. If you
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find out before you start the
role, well, at least you're
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finding out before you accept
the offer, for example, right?
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And you can prepare for it going
in. If it happens after you start
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the role, it might hit you as
more of a surprise. You might
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have not realized this. It might
be more unexpected, and it might
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catch you off guard, for
example. So that was one key
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factor. Did it happen before you
started or after you started?
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And then the other way is in
terms of whether you're told it
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directly or indirectly, for
example. So, some people find out
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through things such as a wait
list, like we talked about, or
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maybe they'll have a
conversation with their manager,
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or they'll find out in the
offering process that, hey,
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someone else had accepted this
role but then didn't take it. So
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that's one way you find out, but
sometimes it happens more
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indirectly, right? And maybe
it's not even intended that you
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find out. So you might find out
through gossip from others, or
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it may accidentally come up in a
subsequent hiring meeting when
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you're considering other
candidates. It can even come
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across in a— in strange way.
Someone says, you know, "We're
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considering this person. What if
they don't take the offer?" "Oh,
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well, it worked great with Dan.
Dan was a great choice, even
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though Dan wasn't our first
choice in the role." And people
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have a laugh at it, and
you're sitting there saying,
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"Wait, is that a compliment or not?"
- Yeah, right.
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So, yeah, it happens— it happens
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in these unique and
interesting ways.
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Does the leader or the manager—does
the type of person or type of
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leader they are factor into how
that integration really goes, and—
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and works to the to the— to
the benefit of all?
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Yeah, absolutely. So this was
really crucial to our— not only
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our findings, but also the
theory that we were developing.
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So in our studies, we were
finding this consistent effect,
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this consistent pattern, that
employees who are the ultimate
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choice, who were not the first
choice for the role, felt less
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socially integrated, and
therefore seek less feedback
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from others. And we saw that in
a variety of contexts, for
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example. And one thing we were
curious about is, well, if we're
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seeing this, is there anything
the organization can do, and in
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particular, that leaders can do?
So that's one of the things we
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examined in our final study of
the paper. We wanted to see what—
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what role do leaders play in this
process? Can they kind of, you
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know, ameliorate some of these
negative effects, for example?
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And what we were interested in
was the idea of leader
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inclusion. This is the idea to
which leaders convey to others
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that, you know, their input is
valued, that they're seen and
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heard in the organizations. And
in our last study, we
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investigated exactly this. We
investigated whether leaders
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were more inclusive to the— to
the alternate choice to the
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first choice that was hired,
versus less inclusive to them?
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And we saw that that had an
effect. So that when leaders
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ended up being more inclusive,
the negative effects were
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weakened for the alternate
choice. They didn't feel as
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likely to feel less socially
integrated. They were likely to
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seek a little bit more feedback.
But it didn't totally eliminate
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the effect. It wasn't enough,
in our study.
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It sounds like, as well,
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that the component
of social barriers which
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you talk about in the research
becomes that much more important
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as well, so that you're trying
to mitigate some of these
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issues, whether they be, you
know, in a team meeting or the
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first couple of days that an
employee— a new employee— comes
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on board. Or even as you said,
maybe even, it's before that
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employee even shows up, to kind
of lay the groundwork.
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Yeah, no, absolutely. And you
know, in our— in our study, we
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were looking at it and we were
trying to be really explicit.
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Have a leader say, you know, "I
value your input, I welcome it," and
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so forth. But I think if you
think about these in
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organizations, there are many
more opportunities for leaders
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to do this, to convey this
repeatedly, right? Because
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sometimes you might say it once and
your employees don't hear you,
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or they don't necessarily
recognize it or believe it, for
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example. So I think having
consistent messaging is really
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important. Another thing that
matters, too, is how are they— how are
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these employees introduced their
teams? Are they introduced as,
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you know, just Samir, and their
background, and what Samir likes?
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Or are they actually introduced
through a lens of worth? And it
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goes beyond that. Are you— you
know, are you saying more about
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the person's qualifications? And
those attributes really matter
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in terms of how people form
their first impressions of you.
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Is there an importance as to
how you go about that, whether that
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is kind of in the formal setting
or kind of in an informal
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setting? I mean, it could be,
you know, around the water
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cooler, our Friday happy hour,
in comparison to bringing
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everybody into the— into the
office building, into the
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office— the meeting room.
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Yeah. I think it's both. I think
it's both formal and informal.
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And it's not just saying it,
it's also demonstrating and
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showing it, right? So how can
you actually— you can say that
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this person has really great
ideas and they have this track
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record, but how are you behaving
towards that employee in the
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first meeting? Are you
incorporating that employee's
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ideas? Are you giving them
feedback on how they can be
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better, for example, and are
they refining it? And then, are
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people seeing that you value and
trust them? That's going to be
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really important for this
process.
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What do you think
are the most important
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takeaways from doing
this research?
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Yeah. I think, you know, one big
takeaway is just recognizing
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that this is out there. We were
struck by the literature that
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this is a phenomenon that
happens in a variety of domains,
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not even just in the companies
that our students go and work
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for, but you see this in acting.
You see, for example, in <i>The</i>
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<i>Godfather</i>, we didn't know that
Al Pacino wasn't necessarily the
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first choice to be Michael
Corleone. - That's right.
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Similarly, Satya Nadella.
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There were other leadership
candidates considered
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at Microsoft at the time. So
there have been some high
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profile people that have been
potential alternate choices.
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We'd have to ask them to really
find out. But yeah, so
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establishing that this occurs,
and it's a status that people
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recognize, I think that's one.
The second thing that I think is
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really important, that really
stands out is that, you know, it
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can be really hard to prevent
this from happening, right?
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Like, one solution would be,
"Well, we just shouldn't tell
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people. We shouldn't tell them
whether they're the alternate choice
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or not. We should keep a lid on
that." But what we found in our
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research is that people have
plenty of examples of this
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happening, and it's really hard
to keep a lid on it. So it's not
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a matter of just telling people,
"Don't tell people." I think
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that's going to be a really hard
secret to keep, and it may not
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be the best one. The better way
of addressing this is, well, how
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are we going to reveal this?
Right? And how should we
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be talking about this? And
should we be consistent and on
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the same page, for example? And
then, how can we help people be
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onboarded into the organization?
And I think that's where that
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last part comes in. Is, you
know, people think they're alone
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when they're having these
situations. That I'm the
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only person here who's been the
alternate choice. But one of the things
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we found in our research is that
many people have these
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experiences, and chances are
there's someone on your team or
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organization who's had it, and
who's been quite successful. So
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sharing their stories,
connecting people with those
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individuals as mentors, for
example, can be really
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valuable. And letting people
know that this doesn't get in—
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doesn't get in the way of their
performance or motivation or how
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they're seen, that this can be
actually overcome, for example,
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is really important for
companies to recognize.
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Samir, great work. Thank you
very much for your time today.
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All the best. - Absolutely. Thanks
for having me, Dan.
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You got it. Samir Nurmohamed,
Associate Professor of Management
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here at the Wharton School.
