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a brand is really a meaning system it
00:00:02
really is a way to communicate to a
00:00:05
group of people or Marketplace these are
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my values and this is what I stand for
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this is my mission and so branding has a
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much deeper kind of impact and hopefully
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the smart organization services
00:00:16
companies Etc understand that
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distinction and they're working very
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hard to make sure that what they believe
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they stand for is what the marketplace
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actually perceives
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welcome to a special edition of the
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ripple effect I'm Dan Loney in honor of
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Juneteenth this month senior advisor to
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the dean for the Coalition of equity and
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opportunity Kenneth Shropshire will be
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your special guestos in each episode
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this month can and Wharton faculty are
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focusing on the critical themes of
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diversity equity and inclusion we'll be
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covering a diverse range of topics
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bringing you the latest insights and
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knowledge that you could apply to your
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life and work so get ready to dive into
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this special edition of the ripple
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effect with guest host Ken Shropshire
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so the topic we're talking about today
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with America's kind of links this back
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in to what companies are doing around
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diversity Equity inclusion you're seeing
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a little bit firsthand as well give us
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your thoughts on how companies are
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reacting to this issue
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well you know part of what we're looking
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at is is how they reacted initially post
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George Floyd kind of that moment
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compared to where we are now and I think
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that's where we all need to step back
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and think about our companies still
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doing what they need to do or what they
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said they were going to do and evaluate
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the circumstances as they stand
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well I will let you two get at it a
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pleasure to have on the show America's
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read marketing Professor here at the
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Wharton School Of America it's always
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great to talk to you my friend
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great to see you as well Dan appreciate
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the opportunity thank you gentlemen
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enjoy your time
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thanks Dan Americas I'm happy to be
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doing this one of my longtime friends at
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uh at Wharton thanks for being here I
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appreciate you yeah thanks a lot Ken uh
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you know as one of my key mentors always
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a pleasure to sit down and have a
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conversation with you because I walk
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away a little bit smarter so I'm excited
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to have that experience as well today
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that's a marketing thing you know how to
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go
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I don't leave it in a private
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conversation
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but America's you know you and I talk
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about these issues
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and two of the senior African-American
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leaders uh in the school and and on
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campus as well
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and you know one of the things that that
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I want to highlight to folks is that you
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are a branding expert and and you are
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you are not a race branding expert and
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so this is a conversation that talks
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about what you what you know best
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branding and as applied to the to this
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topic what's what's
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it what's the importance of branding for
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a company overall just before we get
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into this
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well I love that question thanks for
00:02:50
that uh Ken I think it's important
00:02:51
because if you step back you think about
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what is what is branding and how does it
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fit into the overall context of the
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organization it's huge because in some
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senses you know we think about branding
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and we're sometimes fooled because we
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think it's well it's a picture it's a
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tagline it's a logo and certainly brands
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have external markers that communicate
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to the world this is where we are and
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how how you can find us right uh but if
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you step back and you think about it a
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little bit more generally uh Ken a brand
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is really a meaning system it really is
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a way to communicate to a group of
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people a Marketplace these are my values
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and this is what I stand for this is my
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mission and so branding has a much
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deeper kind of impact and hopefully the
00:03:32
smart organization services companies
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Etc understand that distinction and
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they're working very hard to make sure
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that what they believe they stand for is
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what the marketplace actually perceives
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right so so that gets us into this
00:03:43
context into the the race of the
00:03:45
workplace context that that we're
00:03:47
talking about in this series and
00:03:49
you know at post George Floyd just a new
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study for McKenzie that says the
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companies have committed to now it's up
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to 340 billion dollars which is an
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unbelievable number to these issues
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related to equity and opportunity
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broadly and 141 billion of that has been
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committed just in in the past year
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so you know that there there's
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apparently still a lot of work to be
00:04:14
done
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but how are companies
00:04:18
in terms of branding how are they
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utilizing this this moment and the
00:04:23
announcement of these funds what what
00:04:25
needs to go hand in hand with that
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yeah it's a great question Ken I think
00:04:30
what's really really important and is an
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aspect that is sometimes missed is the
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idea that as we try to communicate a
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connection to a Marketplace and an
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understanding of how internally we are
00:04:43
as an organization changing to become
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better or to be better citizens
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um what what needs to be done and I
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think the money piece is super important
00:04:52
to your point uh but what's equally
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important is the understanding of once
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we create diversity once we create
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inclusion once we create a kind of
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composition within the organization that
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we're actively trying to manage that in
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a way that allows that inclusion that
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change in the organization to actually
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be successful so it's it's a really
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serious mistake if you just create
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diversity and you try to walk away and
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think it's going to happen uh and
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facilitate if all the efficiencies all
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of the positive things on its own
00:05:25
because you know the organization that
00:05:28
end of visuals in the in the employees
00:05:31
the people they have to understand how
00:05:33
to reconnect and reintegrate with New
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Perspectives and sometimes that requires
00:05:39
difficult conversations it requires
00:05:41
uncomfortable situations because you
00:05:43
have a new context that people are
00:05:45
expected to thrive as an employee in and
00:05:48
you just can't pretend that that's going
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to happen all on its own there also has
00:05:52
to be some oversight and some purposeful
00:05:54
consideration with respect to how to
00:05:56
manage that that diversity as well so I
00:05:59
think companies are awake to that now
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and that they understand that it's it's
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not just only being self-aware but it's
00:06:06
also understanding that we have to work
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very hard to manage this this new world
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that we want to try to see in the vision
00:06:12
of our future so externally you can get
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a a branding bump I guess you'll call it
00:06:18
by announcing the money by announcing
00:06:21
programs but but you're saying there's
00:06:22
there's much to be impactful to truly
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make this work
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the work continues once you make that
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announcement in a way that maybe some
00:06:31
companies haven't haven't contemplate
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yeah I think that's correct I think I
00:06:36
think that the understanding that the
00:06:39
work is just starting it's a great point
00:06:41
you just make once you once you start
00:06:43
making those important initial efforts
00:06:45
to create now we have to also understand
00:06:48
that's the easy part right the hard part
00:06:51
is how do we now manage this
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appropriately how do we make this part
00:06:56
of the DNA how do we bring people
00:06:58
together in this new world that they
00:07:00
haven't been in perhaps before and how
00:07:02
do we make them Thrive and be successful
00:07:04
in that new setting right so I guess the
00:07:06
question then how do you I mean any
00:07:08
examples you can give or or maybe it is
00:07:11
just
00:07:12
top-down thinking how do you sustain
00:07:15
this so once you announce the money you
00:07:18
announce the program
00:07:20
how do you make that a I guess it's you
00:07:22
know it's certainly certainly from your
00:07:24
kind of baileywick as we would say how
00:07:27
do you sustain that brand how do you
00:07:30
what do you need to do to make it last
00:07:34
longer than that moment and this is this
00:07:37
is some of your language too and be
00:07:38
genuine and authentic at the same time
00:07:42
yeah that's that's the that's the huge
00:07:44
part that's the the difficult part and I
00:07:47
think a couple things have to happen Ken
00:07:49
uh first you have to you've already
00:07:51
alluded to this you have to have kind of
00:07:54
top-down full-on full committed support
00:07:56
to this this in other words this ethos
00:07:59
has to live and breathe and be
00:08:02
incredibly robust in the c-suite and
00:08:04
then once that that ethos is is there
00:08:08
there has to be the work that's being
00:08:10
done to permeate it through the entire
00:08:12
uh various levels and layers of the
00:08:15
organization so it's kind of like it's
00:08:17
two parts is one part is the
00:08:19
authenticity piece comes from those
00:08:21
individuals in the c-suite making sure
00:08:23
that this is a living breathing thing
00:08:25
that happens and is reinforced every
00:08:27
single day in every aspect of the daily
00:08:29
tasks that have to occur in terms of the
00:08:31
organization running efficiently and a
00:08:34
second part of that is everyone within
00:08:37
the organization uh being aware of what
00:08:40
they need to now do to make that that
00:08:43
Vision that ethos real and so part of it
00:08:46
is to make sure that it's it's kind of
00:08:48
flowing through the organizations from
00:08:50
the top down but also the bottom up and
00:08:52
that there's a clear shared Collective
00:08:54
understanding that this this approach is
00:08:58
something that we all believe in and
00:08:59
that we're going to work every day to
00:09:02
becoming a successful you know Inc
00:09:04
aspect that we want to build as part of
00:09:06
our brand if we want to reach that level
00:09:08
of authenticity that you were describing
00:09:10
earlier so if I'm hearing you correctly
00:09:12
as I'm sitting in my marketing marketing
00:09:13
classroom today
00:09:15
the external part is is one thing but
00:09:17
there's really a lot going on internally
00:09:19
that makes this important that makes
00:09:21
makes The Branding impactful you're
00:09:24
you're saying that a lot of the
00:09:26
conversation that needs to be
00:09:27
contemplated is not
00:09:28
the press release that you send out to
00:09:30
the public it's it's what you do inside
00:09:34
the company
00:09:36
that's 100 correct if you think about it
00:09:38
and I've seen this
00:09:39
happen in many different situations can
00:09:42
uh where companies will show up and say
00:09:46
Here's the new brand
00:09:48
and then and then they kind of walk away
00:09:51
and they say okay we expect everyone to
00:09:53
now be empowered to embrace this and the
00:09:55
problem with that Ken is there was no
00:09:57
there were no degrees of freedom for
00:09:59
people to own it there were there was no
00:10:01
opportunity for people to say I
00:10:04
collaborate I'm part of this and so in
00:10:07
those situations where it just shows up
00:10:09
it tends to fall flat because there was
00:10:12
no Groundswell where people felt like
00:10:15
they were actually a part of this this
00:10:17
this movement towards this this this
00:10:21
change that we're trying to see happen
00:10:22
and so the Smart Companies understand
00:10:25
before they even do this the press
00:10:27
release they're working in the
00:10:29
background to make sure that everyone in
00:10:31
the organization is understanding that
00:10:34
we're going to be a co-collaborative
00:10:37
effort here and we're going to do this
00:10:39
to together and they're going to be
00:10:41
moments of pivoting moments of changing
00:10:43
moments of modification mistakes
00:10:45
missteps you know that we we understand
00:10:47
that this is an evolution it's a process
00:10:50
but we want to make sure that we bring
00:10:52
the company and all of its constituent
00:10:54
Parts all of its employees we want to
00:10:56
bring them along with us so that they
00:10:57
feel they're a part of this and that
00:10:59
they have some psychological ownership
00:11:01
in it
00:11:02
so we're talking about this companies
00:11:05
that that got on board I think in some
00:11:07
way post George Floyd what about
00:11:10
companies that
00:11:11
missed missed the moment I guess that
00:11:13
that are looking around and realizing we
00:11:16
didn't do this
00:11:18
we need to get on board is it is it too
00:11:21
late what missteps could be made if you
00:11:23
do try to jump in and do some work in
00:11:25
this in the Dei space or in the wealth
00:11:28
Gap space
00:11:30
or should you just continue to lay low
00:11:32
or what what what what advice do you
00:11:34
give companies that are are saying okay
00:11:37
that maybe just use the language maybe
00:11:39
they just woke up
00:11:43
what should they do yeah
00:11:45
yeah it's a great question uh it's a
00:11:48
hard question to answer Ken because you
00:11:50
know one can make a philosophical
00:11:51
argument that getting on the ship late
00:11:53
uh is better than not getting on at all
00:11:56
one could make that argument for sure
00:11:58
but I think the marketplace there there
00:12:00
is a kind of settling point where the
00:12:01
marketplace will if you wait too long or
00:12:06
if you're perceived as kind of going
00:12:07
along because of social pressures or of
00:12:10
a herd mentality or whatever that
00:12:12
obviously is going to decrease your
00:12:14
ability to to do it in a in a way that's
00:12:17
authentically perceived as something
00:12:19
genuine and so on and so forth so I
00:12:21
think but even those companies just have
00:12:22
a decision to make because even if
00:12:24
you're going to jump in late you gotta
00:12:26
here's my rule that I always tell
00:12:27
companies you can't half do this this is
00:12:30
not something where you can sort of say
00:12:32
well you know we think it's important
00:12:34
but we we don't want to offend some
00:12:35
people so we're going to try to thread
00:12:37
this needle and we're going to try to
00:12:39
use kind of really safe ambiguous
00:12:41
language so everyone's happy and like
00:12:43
this this group's over here no one gets
00:12:46
offended you can't do it that way you
00:12:47
have to literally say this is something
00:12:49
that the c-suite the company the ethos
00:12:51
the brand what we stand for we believe
00:12:54
in this and we are going to move forward
00:12:56
with this and create this and we're
00:12:58
going to stand behind those core values
00:13:00
and I think this idea of committing
00:13:03
fully and living with the consequences
00:13:05
of whatever that might mean because
00:13:07
there may be groups of consumers there
00:13:09
may be Target markets that feel that
00:13:11
they no longer can connect with you
00:13:13
because of this type of stance that
00:13:14
you're taking but that's the whole point
00:13:16
of purpose marketing that's the whole
00:13:17
point of creating a strong stance on an
00:13:20
issue whether it be social justice
00:13:22
wealth gaps other kinds of things that
00:13:24
you were mentioning to explicitly step
00:13:26
out there and say this is what we stand
00:13:28
for this is something you have to do
00:13:30
explicitly directly clearly and
00:13:32
articulately
00:13:33
so so when we think broadly about this
00:13:37
The Branding issue related to Dei issues
00:13:40
in the workplace
00:13:42
and you know one of the things that I
00:13:43
always come back especially being
00:13:44
involved in sports so much is is the
00:13:47
idea of what to do when something goes
00:13:48
wrong and not
00:13:51
we'll call it external not like the
00:13:52
George Floyd kind of moment but with
00:13:54
your company for example the the senior
00:13:57
executive uh says the inward or there's
00:14:01
a sexual harassment uh case that's
00:14:04
brought against uh a high-profile
00:14:06
individual in your organization
00:14:09
these are
00:14:11
one-off moments
00:14:13
where these companies may have something
00:14:14
like
00:14:15
the post-george Floyd activities going
00:14:18
on
00:14:19
what is it the company should do when
00:14:21
these these moments and I know each one
00:14:23
is different I mean and I know we have
00:14:25
to individualize what happens but in in
00:14:28
sports the tradition has been you say
00:14:30
the n-word you're gonna be fired the
00:14:31
next day
00:14:32
and I'm and there's a variety of
00:14:35
follow-up kinds of things have happened
00:14:37
what what's your kind of thinking about
00:14:40
this when you see these these crisis
00:14:42
moments happen in this in the space
00:14:46
where we're concerned about Dei and race
00:14:49
in the workplace and companies that want
00:14:51
to
00:14:52
have the right brand
00:14:54
after something occurs
00:14:57
what kinds of steps do you contemplate
00:14:58
in terms of of regrouping when those
00:15:00
things occur
00:15:02
yeah I think it's a great question Ken I
00:15:04
think that there's a couple of things
00:15:06
that I I believe are really important
00:15:07
and I think the research on this is
00:15:09
quite clear and that's the idea that you
00:15:12
know first of all it's interesting
00:15:14
because of crises around Dei situations
00:15:17
of race situations where we're trying to
00:15:20
create more diverse uh components within
00:15:23
our organizations they're going to
00:15:24
happen so the idea is how do we respond
00:15:28
to those crises and I think that's
00:15:29
implicit in your point uh as you ask
00:15:31
that question Ken and I think there's a
00:15:34
couple of things that are really
00:15:35
important the first thing is that you
00:15:37
always have to jump out there in these
00:15:38
situations and be quick to validate the
00:15:42
concerns of those who are offended right
00:15:45
so language that has to do with well I'm
00:15:48
sorry I offended you things like that
00:15:50
that's the wrong language the language
00:15:52
is to just come out own it and say hey
00:15:56
I made a mistake around this particular
00:15:58
issue uh you know there may be some
00:16:00
racial tension going on with respect to
00:16:02
how my company fits into a context or
00:16:05
leaders in my company or engaging around
00:16:08
issues around Dei but you got to come
00:16:10
out and own it quickly and validate
00:16:12
those concerns of individuals who who
00:16:14
may be in other constituents who might
00:16:16
be offended by that that's Point number
00:16:18
one point number two is to say listen I
00:16:21
gotta show you an action plan
00:16:23
so I think that's the the second step of
00:16:26
basically saying here's what we're going
00:16:27
to do in this context of what happened
00:16:30
in this particular crisis we have this
00:16:32
four-point plan and here it is okay and
00:16:35
then lastly can you you think about
00:16:37
steps one and two that I just mentioned
00:16:39
and being very proactive about
00:16:41
controlling that narrative and getting
00:16:43
out there and talking to people so that
00:16:46
they understand your position and your
00:16:49
plan moving forward uh about that
00:16:51
particular Dei or race related crisis
00:16:54
that might happen in your organization
00:16:55
so if you follow those three steps you
00:16:58
can mitigate uh the negative potential
00:17:00
reaction that could happen uh the worst
00:17:02
thing you could do is stay silent uh and
00:17:05
allow maybe your Rivals your your arch
00:17:08
enemies to fill that silence so you know
00:17:11
that that's something that I think about
00:17:12
in with respect to to companies I also
00:17:15
just quickly add this can if you've been
00:17:17
doing the work this is what you said
00:17:18
earlier if you've been doing the
00:17:20
diligent purposeful work around these
00:17:22
issues of Dei and race and your
00:17:23
historical footprint is out there you
00:17:26
have a surplus of Goodwill in the bank
00:17:30
that you can draw upon when these crises
00:17:33
happen such that when you go out there
00:17:36
now it's not like the marketplace is
00:17:39
looking at you like man those evil
00:17:41
bastards no they're saying like you know
00:17:43
what if I if I if I look at what they've
00:17:45
done over the past they have an
00:17:47
authentic you know uh connection with
00:17:50
these Dei racial racial related issues
00:17:52
and so therefore I'm going to take that
00:17:54
into consideration when I evaluate their
00:17:57
response to a particular crisis then
00:17:59
there's some real genuineness too that's
00:18:02
not Who We Are
00:18:03
and again as I mentioned it's so common
00:18:06
in sports and we have to let this person
00:18:07
go because they're not part of our our
00:18:10
ethos uh
00:18:12
you know the the other path that that
00:18:15
we're talking about the in in some of
00:18:17
these conversations is the idea of what
00:18:20
else can you do to rehab someone or to
00:18:22
get someone in the right frame of mind
00:18:24
and there's a lot of research now from
00:18:26
some of our faculty about the idea of
00:18:28
diversity training and that sort of
00:18:30
thing which may have a good PR value but
00:18:33
it's not necessarily as impactful in
00:18:36
terms of having a real impact on people
00:18:37
as as some have contemplated so that's
00:18:40
great I mean I love those three steps I
00:18:42
mean I I think that's that's so much
00:18:43
more and something for companies to be
00:18:46
able to contemplate in advance as you
00:18:48
say in this in this longer kind of
00:18:50
planning if you are really about Dei if
00:18:53
you really are about uh addressing
00:18:55
issues of race in the workplace you
00:18:57
should have these kinds of plans in
00:19:00
place and I think related to that the
00:19:02
the other question that I wanted to ask
00:19:04
you before we begin to close out
00:19:07
is what should companies do
00:19:11
and I hate to frame it like this but I
00:19:13
think it it does capture the question
00:19:15
when the next George Floyd moment occurs
00:19:19
oh that's a great question Ken yeah I
00:19:22
think that yeah I mean it is kind of
00:19:24
going back again should you issue these
00:19:26
statements again should you say we're
00:19:27
going to commit this money again is that
00:19:30
proven to be
00:19:31
a good path I mean have some companies
00:19:33
done done it right or is there some
00:19:35
other path that you see that that they
00:19:37
might begin to contemplate and companies
00:19:39
this would cost you a lot of money in in
00:19:40
real life for to give this advice from
00:19:43
Americas
00:19:45
no idea you you ask a a very challenging
00:19:48
question Ken I think that you know from
00:19:51
my perspective one of the things that
00:19:53
that you had mentioned earlier that I
00:19:55
want to unpack just a little bit is the
00:19:56
context of what gets done with that
00:19:58
money and you know
00:20:00
a big part of the efficacy around this
00:20:04
and the research Bears this out as well
00:20:06
is the idea that you have to take these
00:20:09
efforts and you have to create
00:20:10
interventions that the company and the
00:20:14
community
00:20:15
uh are co-involved with so it can't just
00:20:19
be let's hire the celebrity to come in
00:20:21
and put a a beautiful you know uh
00:20:25
glossed over you know training manual
00:20:28
here's the training manual you know
00:20:29
Starbucks let's shut down for a day and
00:20:31
do a whole day of training on all the
00:20:33
stores and we'll have common come in and
00:20:35
like you know he'll be on the video and
00:20:37
we you yeah that's great but at the end
00:20:40
of the day you also need what's going on
00:20:42
in the community like what are we doing
00:20:44
to what are we doing to be a part of
00:20:46
that conversation to be a trusted
00:20:48
advisor in the community uh doing things
00:20:52
to to help the community understand
00:20:54
where we are with this issue and how
00:20:57
we're helping the actual Community not
00:20:59
just through them buying our stuff but
00:21:02
authentically you know investing in
00:21:04
these communities that would allow the
00:21:08
probabilistic likelihood that maybe we
00:21:10
can be a part of reducing these types of
00:21:12
of incidences from happening in the
00:21:14
first place so it's it's a really a full
00:21:17
like 360 degree approach where yes we
00:21:21
want to do the internal work that gets
00:21:22
the pr bump up and gets covered in the
00:21:25
media and gets us that earned media but
00:21:27
we also want to be working very I think
00:21:29
working very very closely with the
00:21:31
community activists the boots on the
00:21:33
ground if you will the folks that are
00:21:35
that are fighting these issues in the
00:21:38
absence of the light of gratitude from
00:21:40
any audience and be a part of that
00:21:42
effort and that work and putting money
00:21:44
into those kinds of areas as well to
00:21:47
against Build It Up not only from top
00:21:49
down but also uh the employees and the
00:21:52
layers but also the community as well so
00:21:55
I think that you know you're not going
00:21:56
to stop potentially these types of
00:21:58
things from happening but you always
00:22:00
want to be in a proactive mode of
00:22:02
investing in the community and being
00:22:04
being a part of that solution such that
00:22:07
these types of unfortunate uh Act of
00:22:10
incidences don't happen in the first
00:22:12
place I think that's the that's the best
00:22:14
that you can do and that you have to
00:22:15
kind of do that from an authentic uh and
00:22:19
a genuine place as you just mentioned
00:22:20
America's I love these insights the the
00:22:23
idea of
00:22:24
being on top of branding before the
00:22:27
trouble starts how to address issues
00:22:29
when they do come how to be on on a high
00:22:34
alert that any moment might be a
00:22:36
branding moment and especially
00:22:38
insightful with me was was the idea of
00:22:40
it's not just the external message it's
00:22:42
it's what you do internally as well how
00:22:44
is it that you get your your people on
00:22:46
board
00:22:47
number three thank you very much
00:22:50
thank you I really appreciate the
00:22:51
opportunity always great to talk with
00:22:52
you Kim likewise
00:22:54
thank you for listening to the ripple
00:22:56
effect we hope you found this episode
00:22:57
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00:23:02
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Insight from the Wharton School
