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[Music]
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[Music]
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this is Mike us and today we have Joseph
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feifer from the New York fire department
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he is the chief of counterterrorism and
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emergency preparedness for the City of
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New York and he's a city Citywide
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command chief for the City of New York
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responsible for commanding major
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incidents uh in the city Joe great to
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have you here and I'm going to begin Joe
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by asking you about basically your
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career with the the department you
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joined in
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1981 and during especially your early
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years what have been some of the most
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informative experiences that helped you
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learn how to lead people into uh
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sometimes in the Harm's Way many days
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are routine but some days are not in the
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life of a firefighter so your your
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formative moments if you would well when
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I first came into the fire department as
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a probationary firefighter I was told
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the most important thing is to know the
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job know what you need to do so I
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started reading reading a lot of the
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fire manuals and procedures um but
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that's only half of it the other is
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actually experiencing um firefighting
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there a tcid knowledge of of of how to
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force a door how to climb an aerial
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ladder 100t in the air um but to be a
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good firefighter to be good at anything
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is is really having the competency and
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and knowing uh what to do um as I became
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an officer it was it was more than just
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knowing what to do is being responsible
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for
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firefighters and that point was made
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um actually after 9/11 I was uh in
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command of a third alarm fire up in the
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Bronx so we have about 100 firefighters
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at the scene uh about three dozen pieces
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of apparatus and the fire goes out and
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I'm leaving and I have this firefighter
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running down the block after me and says
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chief chief chief and I stop and he
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turns and I turn around and he says
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Chief I just want to let you know that
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I'll follow you down any
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hallway now for firefighting for
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firefighting the most dangerous part is
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is a hallway becomes like a uh like a
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chimney and all the smoke and and heat
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fills into the
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hallway and I thought wow this is this
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is a very nice compliment and then when
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I got back to my car I realized he was
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saying just more than I'll follow you he
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was saying that I'll follow I'll be with
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you I'll follow you and I want you to
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keep us safe see leadership is about um
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not giving orders but it's about sharing
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the sharing the danger and that
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firefighter was saying that that that
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that because of what I've done in the
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past that he'll follow he'll be with me
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uh during the next uh major event uh an
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awesome responsibility I could actually
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feel that pressure of of the
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responsibility for others and uh and um
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he meant what he said a formative moment
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very much so Joe let me ask about a set
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of documents that I know you help
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prepare a set of checklists of the New
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York fire department reference
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particular incidents if you will so you
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have a checklist if there's a
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radioactivity release you have a
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checklist in case of a building collapse
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you have a checklist that has the title
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the MayDay checklist talk if you would
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about why you develop these checklists
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and then how they're used in practice by
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members of the New York fire
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department we use a checklist as
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shortcuts um and and for a radiological
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incident there's a we don't do that a
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lot of times so we need a a list to
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follow what procedures but as a shortcut
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is it's it's how do we deal with the
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stress of a situation so during a fire
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as the fire becomes more and more
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complex and and uh and we have to make
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decisions the stress level
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increases one of the most um difficult
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times as as a commanding Chief would be
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a mayday Mayday is a message from the
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firefighter that the firefighter is in
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trouble that the firefighter is um
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trapped doesn't know his or her way out
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of the building that something's
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seriously wrong a life and death
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situation immediately the stress level
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goes up and and you have to deal with
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that and at the same time fight the fire
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so we use a a checklist and and an
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acronym um the word we use is lunar what
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what we want to know is the me M's
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location his or her unit the
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assignment um and what resources do we
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have available um in the person's name
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um that is critical critical information
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so we can make sure that firefighter
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gets out of the building alive
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um it it helps to to to uh know what to
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do right away and it and it's very
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focused another thing we're we're
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dealing with now is how do we use
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technology as a checklist and instead of
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of writing words where there's a
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checkbox we look at at visual
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cues so for example we're developing
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electronic command board or or what I
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like to call a command pad very similar
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to the iPad we're able to see where our
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units are deployed uh they're within a a
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a building uh um structure and one one
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of the important things for for safety
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is to do searches of of every floor that
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there's there's fire and even floors
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that there's not fire um we're required
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to do that within 15 minutes so as a
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checklist we use visual cues if the
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search isn't is not completed the
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primary search is not completed within
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15 minutes on that command pad they
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it'll the floor will turn red and
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instantly that's a cue to The Incident
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Commander to check on the status of the
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Searchers if we do a primary search it
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turns yellow and if we do another search
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afterward a secondary it turns green so
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we use the intuitive knowledge of a
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stoplight red yellow green to give the
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instent commander the same cues or a
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checklist but now we're doing it in in a
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visual
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format you know looking at the mday
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checklist there looked to me my outside
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eye that you've got a good number of
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items they all look pretty Mission
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critical and you probably want your
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officers to get through all of those and
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one in particular that caught my
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attention having gone actually through
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your training program with seven of my
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colleagues a few months ago on the
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MayDay command we learned I think it's
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part of the checklist protocol that when
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you say Mayday if you're a trap
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firefighter uh you have to repeat that
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three times so tell us why is that
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important it's important because we're
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dealing with Wireless Communications
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we're dealing with radios um and what we
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wanted we want to make sure that message
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comes across so for firefighters in
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trouble the firefighter will go mayday
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mayday mayday and then give a message it
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it it um makes sure the message gets
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through and it's also tells the other
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firefighters to stop talking on the
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radio and listen um so in just three
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words there's a lot of communication
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being done speaking of Mayday uh as fate
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would have it on the morning of
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911 you were down near the World Trade
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Center checking on a a gas leak it was a
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pretty routine
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day uh you did look up uh a few minutes
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before 9:00 8:46 a.m. to be very precise
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and you saw the first flight hit the uh
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the North Tower uh you were the ranking
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Commander that close to the World Trade
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Center you played a very important role
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uh in bringing firefighters and
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emergency service people in there and
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then you were The Incident Commander in
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the North Tower just take us from that
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8:30 or so moment the morning to 911
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just talk us through the next couple
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hours if you
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would on the morning of 911 we were at a
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a gas leak in the street and it was
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pretty much a routine emergency for us
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and then at 8:46 in the morning we heard
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this loud roar of a plane
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and you never hear um a plane going
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overhead in Manhattan because of the
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height of the
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building and um we saw the plane
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actually aim and crash into the North
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Tower and at that moment we knew we were
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going to the biggest fires of Our Lives
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um I got on the radio and I gave a
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message um to transmit a second alarm
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for a plane into the building and I told
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the people that I was with the
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firefighters to respond in with me
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about a minute later um I had it I had
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just a little bit time to think and I
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gave another message and very clear I
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asked them to transmit a third alarm
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more resources coming and then I said to
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the dispatcher that the plane was aiming
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for the
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building um I knew at that moment that
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this was not an accident that this was a
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terrorist event and then I I uh
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proceeded to give further orders where I
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wanted firefighters to stay and where I
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wanted them to to go
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in and I can
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remember stepping into the World Trade
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Center um into the lobby um it looked
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like the plane actually hit the lobby um
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there was debris all over the place
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Glass Broken people injured some people
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were burnt um and I went up to the fire
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safety director and I was told that the
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fire was somewhere above the SE the 78th
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floor so as firefighters came in
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uh they came in and I um I gave an order
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and the order was to go
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up to evacuate the people from the
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building and to rescue those that
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couldn't get out by
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themselves and I told them to go up to
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the 70 70th floor I figured at the time
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eight floors was a good measure of
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safety we would regroup and then try to
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get people out that were above the
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fire and then
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um as we were doing that a little bit
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before 9:00 we gave the order to
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evacuate the South
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Tower but a few minutes later at 9:03
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that morning we heard another loud roar
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and this was um the second plane
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crashing into the South
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Tower at that point we um we uh divided
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our Command there was one command in the
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North Tower one in the South Tower and
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and our chief of Department was across
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the street over over all um the person
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in
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charge um firefighters came in and they
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started to climb and they started to
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encourage people to to come down don't
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stop keep goinging down keep keep moving
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down um get out of the
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building and then at at 9:59 that
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morning we heard we heard the crashing
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sound
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um and we moved oh about about 20 M from
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where we were
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standing um in the lobby to a passageway
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uh that that led across West
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Street and
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um that the the lobby that was um was
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covered with dust and with uh and went
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completely
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black um now for firefighters being in
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darkness is not a big deal we operate in
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that all the time um but at that moment
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some of the other chiefs were saying we
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had to get out of the building something
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very important to do we had to we had to
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move out we couldn't command in the
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lobby we had to
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leave but I knew how to get out of the
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building see this was my building um I
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was there hundreds of times so that
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brought me some time to
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think and that few seconds to think I
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knew that if we couldn't
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command that we need to get the
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firefighters also out so I picked up my
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handy talkie radio um and I said command
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to all units in Tower one evacuate the
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building and the firefighters started to
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come
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down but being many floors above it took
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a long time to come down what we didn't
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realize at the time was that we were
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running out of
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time um and as firefighters came
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down um they didn't think of just
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themselves one Lieutenant I could
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remember
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stopping and around the the ninth floor
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and directed other firefighters to
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another stairs because the stair they
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were coming down would have led to the
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uh the courtyard where the debris
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was um another unit lad 6 stopped and
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and noticed a woman that couldn't um
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couldn't continue any
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longer so they picked her up and started
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the carrier
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down we made our way out into the
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street and standing in front of the the
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World Trade
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Center um we couldn't tell what happened
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it was covered with dust and
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debris um and we were never told that an
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entire 110 story building just collapsed
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to the
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ground and then at at uh 10:28 that
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morning we heard the uh the crashing and
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the Roar of the North Tower
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collapsing and we be began to run but
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with bunker gear you can't run that fast
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or that
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far um so we crouched down behind a
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behind a truck
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and and this beautiful summer morning
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that was full of of
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sunshine to turned completely black
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where you couldn't see the hand in front
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of your
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face and you could hear the the steel
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crashing all around us and we were just
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waiting for really um to be crushed
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because we knew we were too close to the
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Trade
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Center and
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then the steel stopped
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and it
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became silent there was no more talk on
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the radio there was just this Eerie
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sound of total silence it was like a new
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snowfall you just heard nothing it was
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just this muffled
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sound when we got up and we walked back
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to the Trade Center or where the Trade
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Center
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was we
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saw this
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Rubble uh um and couldn't believe that
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the buildings The Two Towers just
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crashed to the
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ground I heard um on my radio I heard a
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call from L 6 L 6 to command were
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trapped in the be stairs on the fourth
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floor while I looked out on the pile and
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I knew the building well and I had no
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idea where the captain
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was see that was the captain carrying
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the woman down and by slowing that
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descent they were able to to survive in
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a little
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pocket um that Captain got his unit out
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and and the woman out alive miraculous
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story um but other stories that
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Lieutenant from engine 33 and and 343
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firefighters that day died um in total
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we lost uh
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2750 people in New York
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but amongst the rebel and amongst the
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the uh the uh the
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pain we we saw glimmers of
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Hope um see terrorism tries to take away
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um people's hope but we what we saw that
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day is people helping each other what we
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saw in the days and the months that
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follow was the silhouette of a
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firefighter on on the pile at Ground
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Zero searching for to to to make rescues
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initially and then to recover those that
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are that were
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lost um it's it's important that we uh
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we don't Focus just on the on the
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sadness of the of that day because we
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did save 20,000
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people and 911 is is something different
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it's not just an event for New York City
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or just an event for the United States
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is it an International Event because no
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matter where you were in the world you
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experienced it through the through the
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media a type of global
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trauma but 9/11 10 years
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after it gives the International
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Community a voice that small roadside
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bombing that that uh um um Hotel
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bombing um it gives people a voice
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against terrorism it's a United voice a
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world voice that terrorism is wrong so
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as we look at at at the anniversaries um
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the 10th and other
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anniversaries is really an international
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event that gives all victims a terrorism
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of voice and Joe I know in the 10 years
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since 911 you have spent a lot of time
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thinking about that event its
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implications for leadership for getting
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through a crisis of that kind you work
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with 911 Commission you've written about
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what happened and some of the Lessons
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Learned talk if you would about a a
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couple of the
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leading call them lessons that you have
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now worked with uh since the the events
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of that terrible
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day I think the 911 Commission captured
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it well um by saying that there was a
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lack of information sharing certainly
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there was a lack of information sharing
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before the the events of 9/11 with the
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the the intelligence Community but there
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was also a lack of information sharing
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among emergency responders police and
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and fire department so I I think one of
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the the important Lessons Learned is
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that during a catastrophic event during
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a
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disaster uh we need to share
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information and there's a sense of of uh
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interdependency we we need to work
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together uh one of the things that
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um that that that I wrote about is that
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during any major event they'll always be
00:20:07
organizational bias so as the stress of
00:20:10
an incident increases groups turn into
00:20:12
their own firefighters go to
00:20:14
Firefighters police go to police
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emergency medical form their own
00:20:19
groups but during a disaster we need
00:20:21
just the opposite we need for those
00:20:23
groups to collabor collaborate um so as
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as we look at other major disasters
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around the world a an earthquake a
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tsunami another terrorist event it is
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really um groups coming together and and
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communicating and and working with it
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with with each other to deal with the
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the disaster at hand and I know you've
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spent a lot of time building that
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integration and ability to communicate
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since then as you've taken on additional
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duties now as chief of counterterrorism
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for the City of New York
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what keeps you up at night these days 10
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years after
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911 with my uh my job there's a lot of
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things that keep me up at night but one
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of the things that I do worry about the
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most um is the type of an attack that we
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saw occur a few years ago in Mumbai well
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matter of fact this refer to a Mumbai
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style attack where there's multiple um
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active Shooters uh in different
00:21:28
locations using um improvised explosive
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devices and using fire is those three
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weapons of of of of guns explosives and
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fire is the thing that keeps me up at
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night um because in
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combination they are the most deadly um
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the World Trade Center was brought down
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not by the planes it was brought down by
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fire and we see that terrorists are
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starting to learn from their own
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activity and um and it points to to that
00:22:03
we also must learn so if for us to
00:22:06
battle a a um a an event that uses
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multiple means of of weapons multiple
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means of attack we need to to work with
00:22:17
each other and and to deal with a an
00:22:20
event like that um but certainly it's
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something that worries Us in New York
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I'm in contact with uh London and it
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worries them um but I think by sharing
00:22:32
information um within the city of New
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York and with other cities um we'll be
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better prepared to deal with that type
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of event if it would occur Joe a final
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question here you've been with the New
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York fire department for 30 years you
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were at Ground Zero and 911 for the last
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decade you've thought a lot about how to
00:22:52
build out of that to prepare for
00:22:53
whatever may happen in the
00:22:55
future catastrophic events we all worry
00:22:58
about they've been sort of brought more
00:23:00
to home as we watch what happened to BP
00:23:02
in the Gulf the Fukushima power plants
00:23:05
in Japan the disaster in Haiti with that
00:23:08
earthquake on the basis of your
00:23:10
experience with the New York Fire
00:23:11
Department 911 and the decade since then
00:23:15
what advice would you have for people
00:23:17
who are responsible in the private
00:23:19
sector public sector maybe a nonprofit
00:23:22
organization for thinking about how to
00:23:24
get through a catastrophic
00:23:26
event I think when we look at those
00:23:28
events we want to we want to think of
00:23:31
just how to manage it or um the military
00:23:35
refers to command and control we want
00:23:37
one person to to run the whole thing and
00:23:40
I I think what we've learned since 911
00:23:43
and and looking at those major events
00:23:46
that is not the leadership um that
00:23:49
that's not what leaders do leadership
00:23:51
during a catastrophic event does more
00:23:54
than just manage the event they they did
00:23:58
they do three other things they connect
00:24:01
collaborate and
00:24:03
coordinate connect when an event occurs
00:24:07
the first thing that needs to be done is
00:24:09
to hastily form networks at the scene of
00:24:11
the incident among um firefighters
00:24:15
Rescuers law enforcement medical
00:24:18
personnel and and for them to start to
00:24:21
communicate and work together away from
00:24:24
the incident we have to connect to those
00:24:26
Emergency Operations centers that we've
00:24:28
created and have information passed from
00:24:31
for example New York City to the state
00:24:34
to the National Operation Center down in
00:24:36
Washington
00:24:38
DC once we we form these
00:24:40
networks the incident commanders the
00:24:43
people that are responsible for for
00:24:45
dealing with the event need to get
00:24:48
together and collaborate so there's this
00:24:50
flattening of command not just one
00:24:52
person but now we have the major
00:24:54
decision makers getting together and
00:24:56
figuring out what to do and what they do
00:24:59
is is
00:25:01
coordinate the resource that that that
00:25:03
that we need to get a job done we take
00:25:05
that resource but I think what we're
00:25:08
seeing now is that it's not just one
00:25:10
resource it's multiple resources so for
00:25:13
example during the Hurricane Katrina in
00:25:17
New Orleans we had the Coast Guard spot
00:25:20
fires the Fire Department New Orleans
00:25:23
fire department with the assistance of
00:25:24
the New York City Fire Department went
00:25:26
out and extinguish the fires but they
00:25:29
also went out with law enforcement for
00:25:31
protection so it was that
00:25:34
combination coordination of of resources
00:25:37
so when when we look at at leadership
00:25:40
whether it's in the in a uh emergency
00:25:43
response or in business or in uh in in
00:25:47
nonprofits when there's a disaster it's
00:25:50
the combination of what we call uh C5
00:25:54
command and control connect collaborate
00:25:58
and
00:25:59
coordinate Joe thank you very much let
00:26:01
me on that note bring it to a close uh
00:26:04
let me thank you for 30 years a service
00:26:06
to the city of New York let me thank you
00:26:09
for uh putting uh your leadership and
00:26:12
your life on the line on that very
00:26:14
fateful morning on 911 and thank you for
00:26:17
your insights that have come with a
00:26:19
decade of thinking now and reflecting on
00:26:21
911 and all the threats that we face so
00:26:24
that the rest of us can be more prepared
00:26:26
to face those I ities that maybe are out
00:26:29
there one day and we need to be ready to
00:26:31
do what we have to do if heaven forbid
00:26:34
we do face another disaster so Joe
00:26:36
feifer thank you very much thank you
00:26:42
[Music]
00:26:56
Mike
