00:00:05
the ethos I had was the way you prove
00:00:08
yourself is by doing the work well
00:00:11
and I wanted to prove that I knew it
00:00:15
that I knew how to do it not I am a
00:00:19
woman who knows how to do it it was I my
00:00:23
permanent Focus
00:00:25
was always not to debate not to argue
00:00:29
but to show I am capable of doing this
00:00:33
job
00:00:33
[Music]
00:00:42
greetings I'm Erica James Dean at the
00:00:45
Wharton School and I am thrilled to be
00:00:47
joined today by Miss Anita Summers
00:00:50
luminary Economist profound scholar and
00:00:55
public policy and very proudly an
00:00:58
Emeritus Professor from the Wharton
00:01:00
School at the University of Pennsylvania
00:01:03
Anita thanks so much for being here
00:01:06
thank you very much I'm very honored by
00:01:08
being here I want to actually literally
00:01:10
start at the very beginning so you were
00:01:13
born in 1925 and grew up during the
00:01:15
Great Depression
00:01:17
how did that influence your decision to
00:01:19
become an economist
00:01:21
you can see in some ways why it's very
00:01:24
hard to fully answer that question since
00:01:27
I was such a young child uh during that
00:01:31
time but
00:01:33
what I recall when it first happened my
00:01:36
father was a senior
00:01:39
a vice president of a major Bank in New
00:01:42
York City and we lived and we were very
00:01:46
wealthy and lived in Great Neck in a
00:01:48
great big house and great land and all
00:01:51
of that kind of thing and then all I
00:01:54
remember
00:01:55
and I was probably you know three years
00:01:58
old uh uh was my mother crying and
00:02:03
everything changing and we moved to New
00:02:06
York to a small apartment uh you know
00:02:09
but I didn't I didn't understand what
00:02:11
happened of course but I the world fell
00:02:14
apart but in our household the important
00:02:18
thing was education nothing was stressed
00:02:22
more than education I still remember and
00:02:25
I still have this I have the full set of
00:02:28
the encyclopedia britannicas if you
00:02:30
remember that ancient book and whenever
00:02:33
we would sit at dinner and have anybody
00:02:35
had a question about something my father
00:02:38
would say why don't we look it up in the
00:02:40
Encyclopedia Britannica and then we
00:02:42
would be discussing it uh and so on so I
00:02:45
and that was there just absolutely
00:02:49
permanently as as as as a part you know
00:02:53
a part of the education so it got much
00:02:57
more emphasis than the change in our
00:02:59
economic level by the end of the 30s my
00:03:02
father came out of the very deep part
00:03:05
and we moved to a much bigger apartment
00:03:07
and things were not with the way they
00:03:10
were but they were fine absolutely fine
00:03:12
I went to Hunter College because all my
00:03:15
friends were going to Hunter College at
00:03:17
that point they could have afforded to
00:03:19
send me to an outside college but I
00:03:21
wanted to go with my friends and I had
00:03:23
what I regard as the finest education I
00:03:26
had in my life everybody in the school
00:03:29
was a scholarly at least in some way and
00:03:33
the teaching was extraordinary and the
00:03:36
way I came to economics was that they
00:03:41
require the first two years of liberal
00:03:43
arts education two years of of the
00:03:46
social sciences two years of the
00:03:48
sciences and two years of mathematics
00:03:50
two years of arts and so on required and
00:03:54
only at the end of your sophomore are
00:03:55
you did you choose your major I took the
00:03:59
social sciences and I took a history
00:04:00
course and I took a sociology course and
00:04:03
then I took an economics course
00:04:05
and then at the same time in my math
00:04:07
requirements I took calculus and then I
00:04:10
took you could opt for statistics and I
00:04:12
took them in the same semester
00:04:15
and suddenly that's the only way I
00:04:18
understand but the whole thing clicked
00:04:20
uh and I thought why are we in the
00:04:24
economics courses always discussing I
00:04:26
understood why we were discussing the
00:04:28
theory
00:04:29
but we were never verifying in the the
00:04:32
outcomes of it and then in statistics I
00:04:36
was learning regression analysis and all
00:04:38
that and I didn't understand that then
00:04:41
they had uh in your senior semester uh
00:04:46
they had seven of us for uh economics
00:04:49
honors and economics and you met once a
00:04:52
week with a professor I still remember
00:04:54
her name she was so extraordinary and
00:04:57
that was a few years after uh John
00:04:59
Maynard Kane's book on general theory
00:05:01
was came out and it and the topic for
00:05:05
the semester was the general theory and
00:05:08
each of us were given one Topic in there
00:05:11
you had to read the whole book but one
00:05:13
Topic in there uh for your study you had
00:05:19
to do penetrating study you had to go
00:05:22
and try and find numbers to show things
00:05:24
and then you had to do presentation and
00:05:27
mine was the employment multiplier that
00:05:30
is if government uh gives some money
00:05:32
there's an employment multiplier and how
00:05:35
you calculate it and all of that so
00:05:38
that again put the the statistical thing
00:05:43
connected with the theory and that
00:05:46
stayed with me I never thought about a
00:05:50
full-time career and by the way one
00:05:53
small exception uh in the literature I
00:05:56
took of course is Shakespeare and we
00:05:58
read The Merchant of Venice and there
00:06:01
was Porsha was a a lawyer and I thought
00:06:04
a woman was a lawyer and that made me
00:06:08
take a course in a constitutional law uh
00:06:12
which I enjoyed very much and I thought
00:06:14
gee
00:06:15
I wonder if I could be a lawyer and I
00:06:18
spoke to professor and I said you know
00:06:21
I was thinking maybe I wanted to be a
00:06:23
lawyer this was still in my sophomore
00:06:25
and she said
00:06:27
you'll get into a decent Law School in a
00:06:29
good law school and you'll get a job and
00:06:32
you'll be in the back room you will
00:06:34
never see a courtroom and you will never
00:06:36
see a client
00:06:37
that's what you're doing that was my
00:06:39
first
00:06:40
statement of
00:06:43
of a woman so I just dismissed law uh
00:06:47
and and and and went with the other but
00:06:50
I had no idea what what I I was going to
00:06:52
do so that's that's what the early year
00:06:55
so I I think that probably in some deep
00:06:59
way my response to the economics course
00:07:02
was
00:07:04
um
00:07:05
in some ways came from knowing all the
00:07:09
economic change in my life in those
00:07:11
early years but it wasn't a conscious
00:07:14
decision a fascinating Story and there's
00:07:17
so many different directions that we can
00:07:19
go in that I was just ruminating on my
00:07:21
own
00:07:22
life and career exploration and I
00:07:25
remember being in high school and the
00:07:27
options particularly for women and I
00:07:29
grew up in the South so maybe this is
00:07:30
more of a southern thing but oh they
00:07:32
were teacher nurse doctor lawyer like
00:07:35
those are the four professions that
00:07:38
were familiar and that one could
00:07:41
possibly pursue
00:07:43
and Economist was nowhere in there like
00:07:46
it just never
00:07:48
it wasn't until I was much older that
00:07:50
you realized there was this whole field
00:07:51
of economics and that you could get a
00:07:53
career in doing that work so it's
00:07:55
fascinating that you were so ahead of
00:07:57
the game in that regard so you began
00:07:59
working on your doctorate in economics
00:08:01
in the late 1900s my Master's Degree
00:08:03
that's right yeah and that was obviously
00:08:06
at a time where there are very few women
00:08:08
pursuing those degrees and certainly
00:08:10
those quantitative degrees like like
00:08:13
economics what how did you persevere
00:08:15
what allowed you to be successful in
00:08:18
that domain when I'm suspecting there
00:08:20
weren't very many people who had
00:08:21
preceded you
00:08:23
I only thought about it in terms of the
00:08:26
work and the the uh the ethos I had was
00:08:29
the way you prove yourself is by doing
00:08:32
the work well
00:08:34
and I wanted to prove that I knew it
00:08:38
that I knew how to do it not I am a
00:08:42
woman who knows how to do it it was I I
00:08:45
absolutely didn't think that way and
00:08:49
when when I was confronted by that I was
00:08:53
startled and even then
00:08:56
my permanent Focus
00:08:58
was always
00:09:00
not to debate not to argue
00:09:04
but to show I am capable of doing this
00:09:07
job well can you give an example of how
00:09:10
you were confronted with being a woman
00:09:12
in that field with that well first of
00:09:15
all when I was at the University of
00:09:16
Chicago there were very very few women
00:09:19
in in economics classes and
00:09:22
um
00:09:24
and there were people like the famous
00:09:26
Jack Viner uh who you took a course with
00:09:31
who was terrified to everybody and there
00:09:33
was just me and another woman in the
00:09:35
class there were about 20 in the class
00:09:37
and he
00:09:40
treated us to differently than he did
00:09:43
the other his style was to come in the
00:09:45
Black come in right on the Blackboard a
00:09:48
set of equations and things and say uh
00:09:51
you go up and describe it but when it
00:09:53
was the two either she or I he would
00:09:55
Point like this and say you go and
00:09:58
explain it with a sharp tongue and I
00:10:02
would go nervous I was a nervous wreck
00:10:05
terrified I was not going to know what I
00:10:07
was doing you know and so he terrified
00:10:09
us both The Other Woman twice broke into
00:10:11
cheers
00:10:13
after that so that was the only that was
00:10:16
the only difference apart from that uh I
00:10:19
I did not find that in in the in in the
00:10:22
education
00:10:23
so I'm I'm curious over the next several
00:10:27
years uh you went on to have a
00:10:31
successful Family Life while also
00:10:33
pursuing your work and can you tell us a
00:10:37
little bit for the young people who are
00:10:40
watching this and sort of thinking about
00:10:41
having to navigate work family issues
00:10:44
how did you how did I make that
00:10:46
transition that transition yeah well
00:10:48
first of all when I got married
00:10:51
and I I worked
00:10:54
um uh I I continued working at Standard
00:10:58
Oil until uh
00:11:02
they they they their order was that if a
00:11:06
woman became pregnant she had to notify
00:11:08
them immediately any any female but they
00:11:11
were I was the only female Economist
00:11:13
and then if you're pregnant you were not
00:11:17
allowed to work after three months but I
00:11:20
I was my by then my husband was teaching
00:11:22
at Yale we were living in New Haven and
00:11:24
I commuted every day to 30 Rockefeller
00:11:26
Plaza and I said I'm perfectly capable
00:11:29
for another three you know six months to
00:11:32
do six months you know and so on and so
00:11:34
they had never had the requests before
00:11:37
and they finally said well if your
00:11:39
doctor is ready to to give an a
00:11:42
notarized document that he will take
00:11:45
full
00:11:46
responsibility and so which he did and
00:11:49
so I commuted and and did the work until
00:11:51
I was uh uh six months and that then
00:11:55
that was it but uh after that
00:11:58
uh for when my children are just roughly
00:12:02
two years apart so you know I was
00:12:04
involved and then I became when they
00:12:06
began to be in kindergarten and you know
00:12:08
we were away in school of someone I
00:12:11
joined the League of Women Voters and by
00:12:13
then we moved to here my husband you
00:12:15
know was an economist here at the
00:12:17
University uh and I joined the League of
00:12:20
Women and I became president of the
00:12:22
League of Women Voters Lower Marion in
00:12:25
some discussion we came we were talking
00:12:27
about real estate taxation Among Us and
00:12:30
the tax rate we discovered that if you
00:12:33
bought a your house 10 or 15 years ago
00:12:37
the tax rate current tax rate was
00:12:40
supplied to the value of the house 15
00:12:43
years ago even though the value may have
00:12:45
gone up 50 percent
00:12:47
and that clearly was unfair because the
00:12:50
value the tax rate is supposed to put on
00:12:52
the value of the house so
00:12:54
I and another person spent uh several
00:12:58
months Gathering data which were from
00:13:01
Montgomery County that was the unit and
00:13:03
Gathering data on the value of the house
00:13:05
and the current value of the house and
00:13:08
the tax rates and so on and we put
00:13:10
together a paper recommending that
00:13:12
equality called for for for that and
00:13:17
that got in the newspapers
00:13:18
and uh of course the tax people didn't
00:13:21
like that very much then the Lower
00:13:24
Merion had a town meeting every I don't
00:13:26
remember how often and they asked me to
00:13:28
give a talk honor to the town meeting
00:13:30
and there were about 60 70 people there
00:13:33
and when we gathered for it the man who
00:13:36
was going to introduce me sat here and I
00:13:39
sat here and then the audience was there
00:13:41
and while we were waiting for for people
00:13:44
to gather
00:13:45
somebody in the front row a man of
00:13:47
course said
00:13:49
why don't you go back and do your
00:13:50
knitting
00:13:52
just like that wow
00:13:54
and that was my first direct statement
00:13:59
and I reacted the way I always did
00:14:04
I I just nodded and didn't ignored it
00:14:07
and I didn't refer to it and I didn't
00:14:10
get angry again my inner feeling was let
00:14:14
me just speak and give the evidence and
00:14:17
and do it that way and that that was the
00:14:20
best answer I it was more I always took
00:14:24
this as more demeaning of me and my mind
00:14:28
rather than me as a female but I
00:14:31
realized that that's uh always uh you
00:14:35
know you know what I did and uh I would
00:14:38
not
00:14:40
do any other way in my mind I loved
00:14:44
taking care of my youngsters I believe
00:14:48
that parenting the parents are the best
00:14:51
caretakers that doesn't mean that there
00:14:54
aren't ways of balancing things but uh
00:14:57
that was a joy to me did you work
00:15:00
full-time while you were also caring for
00:15:02
your children no when my children were
00:15:04
all in school you know someone out of
00:15:08
the blue somebody gave somebody at
00:15:10
Swarthmore College in the economics
00:15:12
Department had passed away it was in the
00:15:14
spring and they needed somebody in the
00:15:16
fall to cover economics 101 and somebody
00:15:19
gave them my name and and so on and
00:15:22
Larry Klein actually
00:15:25
and uh uh and they called and asked if I
00:15:29
would be willing to teach a course in
00:15:31
the fall and I had been out for 11 years
00:15:34
okay and I said I can only do it before
00:15:37
three o'clock and I have to be home you
00:15:40
know and so on and my husband
00:15:41
immediately said and I'll put my class I
00:15:43
have my classes on the days you don't so
00:15:46
if any of our children get sick one of
00:15:48
us will be there and immediately and so
00:15:51
on so that summer I kind of brought
00:15:54
myself up after 10 years away back into
00:15:58
shape so to speak and then I taught
00:16:01
there for then I began to teach Urban
00:16:04
the Public Finance and urban economic
00:16:07
Urban economic things and then published
00:16:11
uh some things and then that's how the
00:16:14
FED Reserve came and um and the Federal
00:16:18
Reserve
00:16:19
called and asked if I would head there
00:16:22
in their research Department the um the
00:16:25
urban work and I said yes but I can only
00:16:29
work four days a week and I have to
00:16:31
leave at four o'clock well they never
00:16:34
had anybody ever ask that see this is my
00:16:37
point I I didn't argue I didn't fight
00:16:40
this kind of thing I just I wasn't going
00:16:43
to do it if I couldn't be home and so on
00:16:46
and so HR there went into to discussion
00:16:50
and they came back and they said they'd
00:16:52
pay me an hourly wage and no benefits
00:16:55
and so on uh and the I said fine that
00:16:59
was no problem and
00:17:01
and I work and of course you know it
00:17:03
understand I ended up working at home to
00:17:05
finish articles and and so on and that's
00:17:08
when a lot of Publications poured out
00:17:10
hearing your story it's just so much of
00:17:13
a reminder that we choose our own path
00:17:15
and while there might be predetermined
00:17:18
Pathways for people to be successful in
00:17:20
their careers or in their personal lives
00:17:23
if that's not going to work for you make
00:17:25
your own path and maybe that's let
00:17:27
people know what you need to be and
00:17:31
that's full and productive that was my
00:17:33
first com time when I was like fully
00:17:36
aware of this whole issue of women when
00:17:40
the head of the department
00:17:42
uh called to offer the job and told me
00:17:45
the salary and he said we decided we
00:17:47
could get the same brains for less money
00:17:51
this is standard oil in the head of the
00:17:53
department who turned out to be the most
00:17:54
wonderful mentor and every everything in
00:17:57
the world but and I was startled and I
00:18:00
thought I don't care I don't care so it
00:18:03
was a good job and and going to be very
00:18:06
challenging
00:18:07
the big issue came after I was there
00:18:11
about two years Emilio caliado who had
00:18:15
been the American representative to the
00:18:17
World Bank and so on you know and was
00:18:19
the CFO of all of Standard Oil you know
00:18:22
they had a decision to make about buying
00:18:25
a piece of land in South Africa where
00:18:28
they wanted to build a refinery and they
00:18:31
had a reason for that location the
00:18:33
question was those were the years when
00:18:35
the so-called dollar shortage existed
00:18:37
you could if you made profits in a
00:18:40
foreign country you could use the the
00:18:43
money there but you had trouble getting
00:18:45
it back to the United States the
00:18:48
question was five years from now will we
00:18:51
be able to get this back the Dollar's
00:18:54
back and the question came up on Friday
00:18:56
and the decision had to be made by
00:18:58
Wednesday so I had a research assistant
00:19:01
and I worked you can 15 hours a day all
00:19:05
all weekend and I gathered all kinds of
00:19:08
data again
00:19:10
to do this and then I wrote the report
00:19:13
on Monday and my immediate boss read it
00:19:17
and did a little editing and then the
00:19:19
head of the department read it and then
00:19:21
on Tuesday morning when it was to be
00:19:23
discussed with caliado
00:19:25
my immediate course said Anita I don't
00:19:28
know how to tell you this but collado
00:19:30
will not have a woman in his office
00:19:32
except secretary I said what
00:19:35
he said so I'm going down so please stay
00:19:39
next to the phone and all morning every
00:19:42
10 minutes the phone would ring he would
00:19:45
ask the question I would answer it and
00:19:47
so on but again I what I was Furious of
00:19:52
was I did all that work I mean I put an
00:19:55
incredible I hardly slept and the idiocy
00:19:59
of having somebody else I felt my brain
00:20:03
was being insulted so when they came
00:20:05
back at lunchtime I said
00:20:08
um of course I'm going to see this
00:20:10
through no arguments on that nothing to
00:20:12
debate on that but uh we have three
00:20:15
options ahead I said either you and Ned
00:20:19
the head of the department have the
00:20:20
courage to take me down this afternoon
00:20:23
secondly alternative is I never get a
00:20:26
job from him again I do other jobs but I
00:20:28
don't use and third you can fire me if
00:20:31
you don't like it and so on but I will
00:20:34
never do this again so they huddled and
00:20:37
then they took me down
00:20:38
and we went down to the office and
00:20:40
caliado looked at me and said what's she
00:20:42
doing there
00:20:43
and then Ned said well she wrote the
00:20:46
paper did the work so then he began by
00:20:49
asking the others but then I answered
00:20:51
and that was the end of the problem and
00:20:54
and so that was the most
00:20:57
unbelievable one from a person who's
00:20:59
supposed to be highly intelligent uh
00:21:02
that uh because I was a woman I couldn't
00:21:06
come in and talk about all the work I
00:21:08
had done in in detail and so that anyway
00:21:11
it was never a problem again after that
00:21:14
so I I actually want to pick up on that
00:21:16
because thinking about the longevity
00:21:18
that you've had in this field and doing
00:21:21
this work how have you seen things
00:21:22
change and shift in terms of the
00:21:25
receptivity and that the um the
00:21:29
diversity of people going into the
00:21:32
economics field have you noticed changes
00:21:35
on the whole I have not had much
00:21:39
um a negative experience in that but
00:21:43
when I was at the FED for example uh one
00:21:46
of the first things I did after I was
00:21:48
there a year or two was this the city
00:21:51
was having significant Linux mode was
00:21:53
the CF over the city and they were
00:21:56
having significant budgetary issues and
00:21:59
so I with two other people in my section
00:22:03
did extensive work on the budgets
00:22:05
examined the Pension funds examined uh
00:22:09
the efficiency studies in in on a lot of
00:22:13
this the services and or every detail of
00:22:17
it and then a whole issue of the Federal
00:22:19
Reserve Belton was an analysis very
00:22:22
polite by the way not accusing anybody
00:22:25
of doing wrong but just saying what are
00:22:28
the problems and here are possible
00:22:30
solutions that's the way it was framed
00:22:33
but it was very detailed on every facet
00:22:36
of the budget so it got front headlines
00:22:38
in in
00:22:40
the Philadelphia papers and and so on
00:22:44
and then uh I got a million invitations
00:22:47
to speak and uh the Chamber of Commerce
00:22:50
the Philadelphia chamber invited me to
00:22:52
speak and Lennox smoke was going to be
00:22:55
speaking and there must have been 150
00:22:57
people there and uh I have to describe
00:23:01
we I was there was a lectern and then a
00:23:04
sit sit and I was the first person on
00:23:06
the lectern and I went through the
00:23:09
issues and the way out then when I sat
00:23:12
down Lennox vote got up and he turned to
00:23:15
me and looked down and he said now
00:23:19
little lady
00:23:21
just like that in front of 150 people
00:23:24
and inside I I flinch
00:23:28
I but it made it the immediate decision
00:23:30
that because I was getting a chance to
00:23:32
reply I would totally ignore and go back
00:23:35
to doing what we were here for we were
00:23:39
not here to argue feminist issues we
00:23:42
were here to discuss the budget so I
00:23:45
went back and replied to his fiscal
00:23:48
statements and a lot a number of people
00:23:50
came back and said good for you
00:23:53
and so on but that's been my path and I
00:23:57
can't fully explain why I am though that
00:24:00
way but that's the way
00:24:03
um you know our I I handled that you
00:24:06
well two things that I am taking away
00:24:08
from our conversation one is that you
00:24:09
have incredible restraint and you
00:24:12
recognize when
00:24:14
challenges are happening to you in the
00:24:16
moment but you consciously make a choice
00:24:19
to focus on the work at hand and and
00:24:22
part of that I psychologist in me is
00:24:25
coming out part of that I interpret is
00:24:27
being you know your your your
00:24:30
sensitivity to being seen as an
00:24:32
intellectual contributor my emphasis was
00:24:35
on I can do this don't insult me by
00:24:38
saying I can't rather than don't insult
00:24:41
me because I'm a woman right
00:24:43
uh and that's that's what angered me and
00:24:48
that's why I always felt that the
00:24:51
response was to show I know what I'm
00:24:53
talking about yeah
00:24:54
so in the introduction I described that
00:24:57
you were also an Emeritus professor
00:25:00
from the Wharton School at the
00:25:01
University of Pennsylvania and I want to
00:25:02
get to that point of how you became on
00:25:06
faculty here and so I know that you
00:25:07
would work working at the Philadelphia
00:25:09
Federal Reserve and that you got a call
00:25:12
from Wharton Dean Donald Carroll at the
00:25:15
time
00:25:16
tell us about that call what was it that
00:25:18
he was proposing you to do one day at
00:25:23
the FED I got a call from
00:25:26
secretary Colton said uh Dean Donald
00:25:30
Carroll wants to be I had never met him
00:25:31
you know and so my husband was teaching
00:25:33
here but you know he was in the
00:25:36
economics Department not in the school
00:25:38
and so on I said all right and so on and
00:25:42
he said
00:25:43
I would like to start a public policy
00:25:45
program in the Wharton School and I
00:25:48
wondered if you'd consider coming to
00:25:50
chair and so on I said a public policy
00:25:54
program in a business school he said yes
00:25:57
and he remembered these words exactly
00:25:59
everybody going in the public sector
00:26:02
should understand the private sector
00:26:03
everybody going in the private sector
00:26:06
should understand the public sector
00:26:09
I said is there another business school
00:26:11
in the country that has a policy he said
00:26:14
no we'll be the first
00:26:16
so I
00:26:19
I you know I said Well I obviously have
00:26:22
to think about this and I thought that
00:26:25
is an extraordinary Dean who had the
00:26:28
courage who first of all thought that
00:26:30
way which of course is exactly the way
00:26:33
one should be thinking uh uh and today
00:26:37
we should be thinking about it even more
00:26:39
deeply
00:26:40
and secondly uh
00:26:44
I I I just uh thought that would be a
00:26:48
really exciting thing to be doing and so
00:26:51
on and of course discussed it with my
00:26:53
husband and and so on and then called
00:26:55
and said yes you know and so on so I I
00:26:58
as I said I didn't have any official it
00:27:02
was called program director uh public
00:27:04
policy and management and that summer
00:27:07
I worked because I had no nowhere to go
00:27:11
to develop a curriculum
00:27:14
for
00:27:15
a public policy program in a business
00:27:17
school because it's clear that many
00:27:20
parts of course overlap but that you had
00:27:22
to have an orientation I developed the
00:27:25
course by reviewing the economics
00:27:28
underlying it the political science
00:27:30
underlying at the impossibility theorem
00:27:32
and then I went into evidence-based how
00:27:35
we analyze what the effects of these
00:27:38
things are so the course consistent of
00:27:40
the two sets of theories and the
00:27:43
techniques of evidence-based and
00:27:45
cost-benefit Analysis within three years
00:27:48
I believe we became a department and we
00:27:51
I I was within four years I remember
00:27:54
having three classes on the basic course
00:27:57
with 65 to 70 students in it they came
00:28:00
from all over
00:28:02
and they they were not people who were
00:28:04
going to go in necessarily public sector
00:28:06
but they understood it and
00:28:09
one of the great joys of my life is that
00:28:13
there's you know I'm not going to say
00:28:15
who half dozen or so very distinguished
00:28:19
people who you you would know who took
00:28:21
that course that isn't wasn't their
00:28:23
major who took the course and have been
00:28:26
in contact with me through the years and
00:28:28
said it influenced the way they thought
00:28:31
and so on
00:28:33
and
00:28:35
um so and the other part which is very
00:28:38
relevant to today is I always said all
00:28:43
of this is analytic part in the end
00:28:45
there are moral values that come to play
00:28:48
that is not the topic that we do in in
00:28:52
this course we're here as scientists uh
00:28:55
uh and and so on and a number of times
00:28:59
not you know half dozen times at the end
00:29:01
of the last class somebody would come up
00:29:03
to me and say Professor Summers you know
00:29:06
we haven't been able to figure out
00:29:07
whether you're a Democrat or a
00:29:09
Republican and I thought good that's
00:29:12
exactly what I wanted because the point
00:29:14
was I was there to teach the analytic
00:29:17
tools what the thought processes what
00:29:20
the techniques are for thinking it
00:29:22
through in the end you may say
00:29:26
this or that
00:29:28
and nowadays with polarization I think
00:29:31
this exemplifies what polarization is we
00:29:34
have people who are doing this and that
00:29:36
more than they are the basics the basic
00:29:40
facts you mentioned in one of your
00:29:42
earlier remarks about educational
00:29:45
efficiency and I know that's something
00:29:47
that you're very proud of the work that
00:29:49
you've done in that regard tell us tell
00:29:51
us more about what what educational
00:29:53
efficiency is and what what you've done
00:29:56
in that field when I was at the Federal
00:29:58
Reserve and I did this uh study of the
00:30:01
budget
00:30:02
uh I saw that they had done studies on
00:30:05
efficiency of libraries transportation
00:30:10
um uh real estate you know certain real
00:30:14
estate things
00:30:15
but education was the biggest
00:30:17
contributor to the deficit of the major
00:30:20
cities in the country and particularly
00:30:22
and very much so that's where the
00:30:24
biggest city deficit talk about cities
00:30:28
deficit and I thought why are we not
00:30:30
doing a study on the efficiency of city
00:30:33
of Education
00:30:35
so I looked into the literature in that
00:30:38
and William Coleman University of
00:30:40
Chicago was the only person who had done
00:30:42
a study using schools as the unit but
00:30:45
schools as a unit you might have a
00:30:48
school with an average score of 50 uh
00:30:52
where uh it was a a 20 and 80. it was
00:30:58
with scores or they could have been 45
00:31:01
and 55 you see so I went to the student
00:31:04
level in in Philadelphia David eastburn
00:31:07
was a president of the FED here and you
00:31:11
know at first people say what are we
00:31:13
doing doing anything on education and I
00:31:16
said this translates into Finance uh in
00:31:19
in the end and uh uh and I showed you
00:31:23
know showed how it did and so I did this
00:31:25
study with several thousand students and
00:31:28
we got background information so uh
00:31:31
controlling for uh the education to the
00:31:35
parents we got data on you know whether
00:31:38
they were immigrants uh whether they
00:31:40
were low income uh uh you know all of
00:31:45
these things and then looking at
00:31:46
teachers and that for Teacher quality we
00:31:50
had the scores on the national teacher
00:31:52
exam uh the college they went to and
00:31:56
their the number of their absences
00:31:59
uh and so we got measures of them anyway
00:32:03
found as you might expect and we are now
00:32:06
fully back there uh that uh this the
00:32:11
most disadvantaged students have the
00:32:13
teachers who had the lowest grade on the
00:32:15
national teachers exam the most absences
00:32:18
uh and the you know and the poorest
00:32:21
results
00:32:22
Etc and I was horrified and the uh the
00:32:26
salaries and teachers only come
00:32:28
everybody gets a certain percentage
00:32:31
salary increase every and I came out
00:32:33
advocating that like the rest of the
00:32:36
world outstanding teachers should be
00:32:39
rewarded and very poor teachers should
00:32:41
be let go well I think you can imagine
00:32:44
the way the unions uh felt about it and
00:32:47
the union invited me to give a talk uh
00:32:50
and they were furious and I spoke to 300
00:32:53
very angry people and so on but
00:32:58
I just said
00:32:59
outstanding people deserve reward people
00:33:02
who we can demonstrate that was the
00:33:05
point we can show that they were
00:33:07
unsuccessful and that there were people
00:33:09
who who were if you want efficiency
00:33:12
that's what you have to have and and so
00:33:15
on so that's how I came in to education
00:33:18
and the New York State Legislature
00:33:21
invited me to come up their subcommittee
00:33:23
on education to talk about the findings
00:33:26
on this in this study and the head of
00:33:29
the National Association of teachers and
00:33:32
so on was there too
00:33:34
and after the meeting was over he came
00:33:37
up to me he said Anita you're absolutely
00:33:40
right and it will never happen
00:33:43
and he was right
00:33:46
so that anyway I came into education
00:33:49
from a financial Point that's what I'm
00:33:52
saying so as we bring this to a close
00:33:55
imagine that you are at the chalkboard
00:33:59
or white at the white board or
00:34:01
Blackboard or chalkboard whatever we
00:34:03
call it these days and uh you were
00:34:06
reflecting on your career
00:34:08
what three words would you write that
00:34:12
best capture what you've learned over
00:34:14
the course of your incredible career my
00:34:17
first
00:34:18
absolutely first thing to say would be
00:34:23
Focus
00:34:25
apart from the the substance of the work
00:34:28
you're doing on Integrity remembering
00:34:31
[Music]
00:34:32
all of the participants who are affected
00:34:34
by what you're thinking of whether it's
00:34:37
a private sector or public sector
00:34:41
maintaining the standards of integrity
00:34:44
and
00:34:46
I
00:34:47
feel
00:34:49
uh
00:34:51
people have to learn to submerge their
00:34:55
self-interest when they're talking about
00:34:58
uh
00:35:00
public policy issues
00:35:03
the so-called think tanks what have we
00:35:06
got a thousand of them in the country
00:35:07
there are really five
00:35:09
the others are
00:35:12
uh are lobbyists
00:35:15
they call themselves think tanks but
00:35:17
they are they are only examining what
00:35:20
the the the person making in the
00:35:23
contract wants to have is the answer and
00:35:26
they're asked to prove it I'm talking
00:35:28
about absolute think tanks and
00:35:33
Mathematica is an example for example no
00:35:36
one of their employees may be active in
00:35:39
a political party they can be a member
00:35:40
of the party they may not make large
00:35:42
contributions and they may not be
00:35:44
identified in any way
00:35:47
all their contracts all their contracts
00:35:50
with the federal government that they do
00:35:52
on analyzing policies there's a
00:35:55
stipulation that if the government that
00:35:58
the department that ordered the the
00:36:00
thing doesn't come out with the findings
00:36:03
within three four months mathematical
00:36:06
will I'm just giving you illustrations
00:36:08
of integrity and they have maintained it
00:36:12
very very few have secondly I think
00:36:17
everywhere we go in Pub in policy public
00:36:20
policy we should be
00:36:23
the words evidence base are being used
00:36:26
and but we should be understanding
00:36:29
evidence-based and the answer has to be
00:36:32
evidence not your values and I think the
00:36:37
integrity
00:36:39
and evidence-based go
00:36:41
hand and hand
00:36:44
and uh
00:36:46
and so the the third thing I would say
00:36:50
today in terms of Business Schools and
00:36:53
so on is that we are now having for the
00:36:57
first time that I remember discussions
00:36:59
of what Corporate social responsibility
00:37:02
should be we know that 185 or so signed
00:37:06
that whole contract about a year or so
00:37:09
ago but we don't know whether or not in
00:37:12
fact in the boardrooms the discussions
00:37:16
are not just what the investors are
00:37:19
going to get by way of return but
00:37:21
whether what employees
00:37:29
that remains to be seen and it's a
00:37:32
balance because of course there's strong
00:37:34
Merit in focusing on the profits
00:37:38
but at the same time how do we
00:37:40
incorporate
00:37:42
the benefits of social responsibility to
00:37:45
it now I I do know that in one of the
00:37:48
major Wall Street firms for example
00:37:51
they'd a few years ago began to be
00:37:55
interested in climate changes as a big
00:37:59
beneficial issue to society
00:38:02
and began to think about investing in it
00:38:05
and then decided they would invest in
00:38:09
all these new firms coming up developing
00:38:12
new new
00:38:13
gadgets and all of that and it turns out
00:38:16
they're making a fortune from it because
00:38:18
it's a growth industry now not
00:38:21
everything may work that way but it's an
00:38:22
illustration where they were attracted
00:38:25
to it first as I understand it by
00:38:28
the demands of of all the new techniques
00:38:33
of of climate control
00:38:35
and it turned out to be very beneficial
00:38:38
obviously some of them won't but to have
00:38:41
those social things on the agenda
00:38:46
um and then think through
00:38:48
and the other last comment I would make
00:38:51
there is
00:38:54
I think that
00:38:57
uh those going into Social Work activity
00:39:02
of various kinds
00:39:04
should
00:39:06
be equally looking
00:39:09
at what business school
00:39:12
Financial techniques uh uh you know or
00:39:16
you know all kinds of business
00:39:18
managerial techniques to bring those
00:39:21
more to government
00:39:23
that government can clearly
00:39:26
learn a great deal from private sector I
00:39:30
think there's Mutual examination ahead
00:39:34
both ways
00:39:36
well Anita Summers it has been my sheer
00:39:41
Delight to sit down with you and have
00:39:43
this conversation I learned a lot I know
00:39:45
our viewers will absolutely learn a lot
00:39:48
and we are grateful to claim you we are
00:39:51
grateful for the contributions you have
00:39:52
made over the years to the Wharton
00:39:54
School and to broader Society through
00:39:57
your intellectual prowess in economics
00:39:59
and public policy thank you thank you
00:40:02
for not saying you're congratulating on
00:40:04
my being a woman
00:40:07
thank you very much it was my honor to
00:40:11
be here
00:40:12
thank you
00:40:14
foreign
