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the ethos I had was the way you prove yourself is by doing the work well and I wanted to prove that I knew it
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that I knew how to do it not I am a woman who knows how to do it it was I my permanent Focus
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was always not to debate not to argue but to show I am capable of doing this job
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[Music] greetings I'm Erica James Dean at the Wharton School and I am thrilled to be
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joined today by Miss Anita Summers luminary Economist profound scholar and public policy and very proudly an
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Emeritus Professor from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania Anita thanks so much for being here
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thank you very much I'm very honored by being here I want to actually literally
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start at the very beginning so you were born in 1925 and grew up during the Great Depression
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how did that influence your decision to become an economist you can see in some ways why it's very
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hard to fully answer that question since I was such a young child uh during that
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time but what I recall when it first happened my father was a senior a vice president of a major Bank in New
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York City and we lived and we were very wealthy and lived in Great Neck in a great big house and great land and all
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of that kind of thing and then all I remember and I was probably you know three years
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old uh uh was my mother crying and everything changing and we moved to New York to a small apartment uh you know
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but I didn't I didn't understand what happened of course but I the world fell
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apart but in our household the important thing was education nothing was stressed
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more than education I still remember and I still have this I have the full set of
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the encyclopedia britannicas if you remember that ancient book and whenever we would sit at dinner and have anybody
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had a question about something my father would say why don't we look it up in the
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Encyclopedia Britannica and then we would be discussing it uh and so on so I and that was there just absolutely
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permanently as as as as a part you know a part of the education so it got much more emphasis than the change in our
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economic level by the end of the 30s my father came out of the very deep part and we moved to a much bigger apartment
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and things were not with the way they were but they were fine absolutely fine I went to Hunter College because all my
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friends were going to Hunter College at that point they could have afforded to send me to an outside college but I
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wanted to go with my friends and I had what I regard as the finest education I had in my life everybody in the school
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was a scholarly at least in some way and the teaching was extraordinary and the way I came to economics was that they
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require the first two years of liberal arts education two years of of the social sciences two years of the
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sciences and two years of mathematics two years of arts and so on required and only at the end of your sophomore are
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you did you choose your major I took the social sciences and I took a history course and I took a sociology course and
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then I took an economics course and then at the same time in my math requirements I took calculus and then I
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took you could opt for statistics and I took them in the same semester and suddenly that's the only way I
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understand but the whole thing clicked uh and I thought why are we in the economics courses always discussing I
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understood why we were discussing the theory but we were never verifying in the the
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outcomes of it and then in statistics I was learning regression analysis and all
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that and I didn't understand that then they had uh in your senior semester uh
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they had seven of us for uh economics honors and economics and you met once a week with a professor I still remember
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her name she was so extraordinary and that was a few years after uh John Maynard Kane's book on general theory
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was came out and it and the topic for the semester was the general theory and each of us were given one Topic in there
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you had to read the whole book but one Topic in there uh for your study you had to do penetrating study you had to go
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and try and find numbers to show things and then you had to do presentation and mine was the employment multiplier that
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is if government uh gives some money there's an employment multiplier and how
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you calculate it and all of that so that again put the the statistical thing connected with the theory and that
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stayed with me I never thought about a full-time career and by the way one small exception uh in the literature I
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took of course is Shakespeare and we read The Merchant of Venice and there was Porsha was a a lawyer and I thought
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a woman was a lawyer and that made me take a course in a constitutional law uh which I enjoyed very much and I thought
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gee I wonder if I could be a lawyer and I spoke to professor and I said you know
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I was thinking maybe I wanted to be a lawyer this was still in my sophomore and she said
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you'll get into a decent Law School in a good law school and you'll get a job and
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you'll be in the back room you will never see a courtroom and you will never
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see a client that's what you're doing that was my first statement of of a woman so I just dismissed law uh
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and and and and went with the other but I had no idea what what I I was going to
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do so that's that's what the early year so I I think that probably in some deep
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way my response to the economics course was um in some ways came from knowing all the
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economic change in my life in those early years but it wasn't a conscious decision a fascinating Story and there's
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so many different directions that we can go in that I was just ruminating on my own
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life and career exploration and I remember being in high school and the options particularly for women and I
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grew up in the South so maybe this is more of a southern thing but oh they were teacher nurse doctor lawyer like
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those are the four professions that were familiar and that one could possibly pursue
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and Economist was nowhere in there like it just never it wasn't until I was much older that
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you realized there was this whole field of economics and that you could get a career in doing that work so it's
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fascinating that you were so ahead of the game in that regard so you began working on your doctorate in economics
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in the late 1900s my Master's Degree that's right yeah and that was obviously
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at a time where there are very few women pursuing those degrees and certainly those quantitative degrees like like
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economics what how did you persevere what allowed you to be successful in that domain when I'm suspecting there
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weren't very many people who had preceded you I only thought about it in terms of the
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work and the the uh the ethos I had was the way you prove yourself is by doing the work well
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and I wanted to prove that I knew it that I knew how to do it not I am a woman who knows how to do it it was I I
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absolutely didn't think that way and when when I was confronted by that I was
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startled and even then my permanent Focus was always not to debate not to argue but to show I am capable of doing this
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job well can you give an example of how you were confronted with being a woman in that field with that well first of
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all when I was at the University of Chicago there were very very few women in in economics classes and
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um and there were people like the famous Jack Viner uh who you took a course with
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who was terrified to everybody and there was just me and another woman in the class there were about 20 in the class
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and he treated us to differently than he did the other his style was to come in the
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Black come in right on the Blackboard a set of equations and things and say uh you go up and describe it but when it
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was the two either she or I he would Point like this and say you go and explain it with a sharp tongue and I
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would go nervous I was a nervous wreck terrified I was not going to know what I was doing you know and so he terrified
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us both The Other Woman twice broke into cheers after that so that was the only that was
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the only difference apart from that uh I I did not find that in in the in in the
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education so I'm I'm curious over the next several years uh you went on to have a
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successful Family Life while also pursuing your work and can you tell us a little bit for the young people who are
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watching this and sort of thinking about having to navigate work family issues how did you how did I make that
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transition that transition yeah well first of all when I got married and I I worked
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um uh I I continued working at Standard Oil until uh they they they their order was that if a
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woman became pregnant she had to notify them immediately any any female but they
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were I was the only female Economist and then if you're pregnant you were not
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allowed to work after three months but I I was my by then my husband was teaching
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at Yale we were living in New Haven and I commuted every day to 30 Rockefeller Plaza and I said I'm perfectly capable
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for another three you know six months to do six months you know and so on and so
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they had never had the requests before and they finally said well if your doctor is ready to to give an a
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notarized document that he will take full responsibility and so which he did and
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so I commuted and and did the work until I was uh uh six months and that then that was it but uh after that
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uh for when my children are just roughly two years apart so you know I was involved and then I became when they
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began to be in kindergarten and you know we were away in school of someone I joined the League of Women Voters and by
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then we moved to here my husband you know was an economist here at the University uh and I joined the League of
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Women and I became president of the League of Women Voters Lower Marion in some discussion we came we were talking
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about real estate taxation Among Us and the tax rate we discovered that if you bought a your house 10 or 15 years ago
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the tax rate current tax rate was supplied to the value of the house 15 years ago even though the value may have
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gone up 50 percent and that clearly was unfair because the value the tax rate is supposed to put on
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the value of the house so I and another person spent uh several months Gathering data which were from
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Montgomery County that was the unit and Gathering data on the value of the house
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and the current value of the house and the tax rates and so on and we put together a paper recommending that
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equality called for for for that and that got in the newspapers and uh of course the tax people didn't
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like that very much then the Lower Merion had a town meeting every I don't remember how often and they asked me to
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give a talk honor to the town meeting and there were about 60 70 people there and when we gathered for it the man who
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was going to introduce me sat here and I sat here and then the audience was there
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and while we were waiting for for people to gather somebody in the front row a man of
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course said why don't you go back and do your knitting just like that wow and that was my first direct statement
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and I reacted the way I always did I I just nodded and didn't ignored it and I didn't refer to it and I didn't
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get angry again my inner feeling was let me just speak and give the evidence and
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and do it that way and that that was the best answer I it was more I always took
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this as more demeaning of me and my mind rather than me as a female but I realized that that's uh always uh you
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know you know what I did and uh I would not do any other way in my mind I loved taking care of my youngsters I believe
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that parenting the parents are the best caretakers that doesn't mean that there
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aren't ways of balancing things but uh that was a joy to me did you work full-time while you were also caring for
00:15:02
your children no when my children were all in school you know someone out of the blue somebody gave somebody at
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Swarthmore College in the economics Department had passed away it was in the spring and they needed somebody in the
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fall to cover economics 101 and somebody gave them my name and and so on and Larry Klein actually
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and uh uh and they called and asked if I would be willing to teach a course in the fall and I had been out for 11 years
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okay and I said I can only do it before three o'clock and I have to be home you
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know and so on and my husband immediately said and I'll put my class I have my classes on the days you don't so
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if any of our children get sick one of us will be there and immediately and so on so that summer I kind of brought
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myself up after 10 years away back into shape so to speak and then I taught there for then I began to teach Urban
00:16:04
the Public Finance and urban economic Urban economic things and then published uh some things and then that's how the
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FED Reserve came and um and the Federal Reserve called and asked if I would head there
00:16:22
in their research Department the um the urban work and I said yes but I can only
00:16:29
work four days a week and I have to leave at four o'clock well they never had anybody ever ask that see this is my
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point I I didn't argue I didn't fight this kind of thing I just I wasn't going
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to do it if I couldn't be home and so on and so HR there went into to discussion
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and they came back and they said they'd pay me an hourly wage and no benefits
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and so on uh and the I said fine that was no problem and and I work and of course you know it
00:17:03
understand I ended up working at home to finish articles and and so on and that's
00:17:08
when a lot of Publications poured out hearing your story it's just so much of
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a reminder that we choose our own path and while there might be predetermined Pathways for people to be successful in
00:17:20
their careers or in their personal lives if that's not going to work for you make
00:17:25
your own path and maybe that's let people know what you need to be and that's full and productive that was my
00:17:33
first com time when I was like fully aware of this whole issue of women when the head of the department
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uh called to offer the job and told me the salary and he said we decided we could get the same brains for less money
00:17:51
this is standard oil in the head of the department who turned out to be the most
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wonderful mentor and every everything in the world but and I was startled and I thought I don't care I don't care so it
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was a good job and and going to be very challenging the big issue came after I was there
00:18:11
about two years Emilio caliado who had been the American representative to the World Bank and so on you know and was
00:18:19
the CFO of all of Standard Oil you know they had a decision to make about buying
00:18:25
a piece of land in South Africa where they wanted to build a refinery and they had a reason for that location the
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question was those were the years when the so-called dollar shortage existed you could if you made profits in a
00:18:40
foreign country you could use the the money there but you had trouble getting it back to the United States the
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question was five years from now will we be able to get this back the Dollar's
00:18:54
back and the question came up on Friday and the decision had to be made by Wednesday so I had a research assistant
00:19:01
and I worked you can 15 hours a day all all weekend and I gathered all kinds of data again
00:19:10
to do this and then I wrote the report on Monday and my immediate boss read it and did a little editing and then the
00:19:19
head of the department read it and then on Tuesday morning when it was to be discussed with caliado
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my immediate course said Anita I don't know how to tell you this but collado
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will not have a woman in his office except secretary I said what he said so I'm going down so please stay
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next to the phone and all morning every 10 minutes the phone would ring he would
00:19:45
ask the question I would answer it and so on but again I what I was Furious of was I did all that work I mean I put an
00:19:55
incredible I hardly slept and the idiocy of having somebody else I felt my brain
00:20:03
was being insulted so when they came back at lunchtime I said um of course I'm going to see this
00:20:10
through no arguments on that nothing to debate on that but uh we have three options ahead I said either you and Ned
00:20:19
the head of the department have the courage to take me down this afternoon secondly alternative is I never get a
00:20:26
job from him again I do other jobs but I don't use and third you can fire me if
00:20:31
you don't like it and so on but I will never do this again so they huddled and
00:20:37
then they took me down and we went down to the office and caliado looked at me and said what's she
00:20:42
doing there and then Ned said well she wrote the paper did the work so then he began by
00:20:49
asking the others but then I answered and that was the end of the problem and and so that was the most
00:20:57
unbelievable one from a person who's supposed to be highly intelligent uh that uh because I was a woman I couldn't
00:21:06
come in and talk about all the work I had done in in detail and so that anyway it was never a problem again after that
00:21:14
so I I actually want to pick up on that because thinking about the longevity that you've had in this field and doing
00:21:21
this work how have you seen things change and shift in terms of the receptivity and that the um the
00:21:29
diversity of people going into the economics field have you noticed changes on the whole I have not had much
00:21:39
um a negative experience in that but when I was at the FED for example uh one of the first things I did after I was
00:21:48
there a year or two was this the city was having significant Linux mode was the CF over the city and they were
00:21:56
having significant budgetary issues and so I with two other people in my section
00:22:03
did extensive work on the budgets examined the Pension funds examined uh the efficiency studies in in on a lot of
00:22:13
this the services and or every detail of it and then a whole issue of the Federal
00:22:19
Reserve Belton was an analysis very polite by the way not accusing anybody of doing wrong but just saying what are
00:22:28
the problems and here are possible solutions that's the way it was framed but it was very detailed on every facet
00:22:36
of the budget so it got front headlines in in the Philadelphia papers and and so on
00:22:44
and then uh I got a million invitations to speak and uh the Chamber of Commerce the Philadelphia chamber invited me to
00:22:52
speak and Lennox smoke was going to be speaking and there must have been 150 people there and uh I have to describe
00:23:01
we I was there was a lectern and then a sit sit and I was the first person on the lectern and I went through the
00:23:09
issues and the way out then when I sat down Lennox vote got up and he turned to me and looked down and he said now
00:23:19
little lady just like that in front of 150 people and inside I I flinch I but it made it the immediate decision
00:23:30
that because I was getting a chance to reply I would totally ignore and go back to doing what we were here for we were
00:23:39
not here to argue feminist issues we were here to discuss the budget so I went back and replied to his fiscal
00:23:48
statements and a lot a number of people came back and said good for you and so on but that's been my path and I
00:23:57
can't fully explain why I am though that way but that's the way um you know our I I handled that you
00:24:06
well two things that I am taking away from our conversation one is that you have incredible restraint and you
00:24:12
recognize when challenges are happening to you in the moment but you consciously make a choice
00:24:19
to focus on the work at hand and and part of that I psychologist in me is coming out part of that I interpret is
00:24:27
being you know your your your sensitivity to being seen as an intellectual contributor my emphasis was
00:24:35
on I can do this don't insult me by saying I can't rather than don't insult
00:24:41
me because I'm a woman right uh and that's that's what angered me and
00:24:48
that's why I always felt that the response was to show I know what I'm talking about yeah
00:24:54
so in the introduction I described that you were also an Emeritus professor from the Wharton School at the
00:25:01
University of Pennsylvania and I want to get to that point of how you became on faculty here and so I know that you
00:25:07
would work working at the Philadelphia Federal Reserve and that you got a call from Wharton Dean Donald Carroll at the
00:25:15
time tell us about that call what was it that he was proposing you to do one day at
00:25:23
the FED I got a call from secretary Colton said uh Dean Donald Carroll wants to be I had never met him
00:25:31
you know and so my husband was teaching here but you know he was in the economics Department not in the school
00:25:38
and so on I said all right and so on and he said I would like to start a public policy
00:25:45
program in the Wharton School and I wondered if you'd consider coming to chair and so on I said a public policy
00:25:54
program in a business school he said yes and he remembered these words exactly everybody going in the public sector
00:26:02
should understand the private sector everybody going in the private sector should understand the public sector
00:26:09
I said is there another business school in the country that has a policy he said
00:26:14
no we'll be the first so I I you know I said Well I obviously have to think about this and I thought that
00:26:25
is an extraordinary Dean who had the courage who first of all thought that way which of course is exactly the way
00:26:33
one should be thinking uh uh and today we should be thinking about it even more deeply
00:26:40
and secondly uh I I I just uh thought that would be a really exciting thing to be doing and so
00:26:51
on and of course discussed it with my husband and and so on and then called and said yes you know and so on so I I
00:26:58
as I said I didn't have any official it was called program director uh public
00:27:04
policy and management and that summer I worked because I had no nowhere to go to develop a curriculum
00:27:14
for a public policy program in a business school because it's clear that many
00:27:20
parts of course overlap but that you had to have an orientation I developed the course by reviewing the economics
00:27:28
underlying it the political science underlying at the impossibility theorem and then I went into evidence-based how
00:27:35
we analyze what the effects of these things are so the course consistent of the two sets of theories and the
00:27:43
techniques of evidence-based and cost-benefit Analysis within three years I believe we became a department and we
00:27:51
I I was within four years I remember having three classes on the basic course with 65 to 70 students in it they came
00:28:00
from all over and they they were not people who were going to go in necessarily public sector
00:28:06
but they understood it and one of the great joys of my life is that there's you know I'm not going to say
00:28:15
who half dozen or so very distinguished people who you you would know who took that course that isn't wasn't their
00:28:23
major who took the course and have been in contact with me through the years and
00:28:28
said it influenced the way they thought and so on and um so and the other part which is very
00:28:38
relevant to today is I always said all of this is analytic part in the end there are moral values that come to play
00:28:48
that is not the topic that we do in in this course we're here as scientists uh
00:28:55
uh and and so on and a number of times not you know half dozen times at the end of the last class somebody would come up
00:29:03
to me and say Professor Summers you know we haven't been able to figure out whether you're a Democrat or a
00:29:09
Republican and I thought good that's exactly what I wanted because the point
00:29:14
was I was there to teach the analytic tools what the thought processes what the techniques are for thinking it
00:29:22
through in the end you may say this or that and nowadays with polarization I think
00:29:31
this exemplifies what polarization is we have people who are doing this and that
00:29:36
more than they are the basics the basic facts you mentioned in one of your earlier remarks about educational
00:29:45
efficiency and I know that's something that you're very proud of the work that
00:29:49
you've done in that regard tell us tell us more about what what educational efficiency is and what what you've done
00:29:56
in that field when I was at the Federal Reserve and I did this uh study of the budget
00:30:02
uh I saw that they had done studies on efficiency of libraries transportation um uh real estate you know certain real
00:30:14
estate things but education was the biggest contributor to the deficit of the major
00:30:20
cities in the country and particularly and very much so that's where the biggest city deficit talk about cities
00:30:28
deficit and I thought why are we not doing a study on the efficiency of city of Education
00:30:35
so I looked into the literature in that and William Coleman University of Chicago was the only person who had done
00:30:42
a study using schools as the unit but schools as a unit you might have a school with an average score of 50 uh
00:30:52
where uh it was a a 20 and 80. it was with scores or they could have been 45 and 55 you see so I went to the student
00:31:04
level in in Philadelphia David eastburn was a president of the FED here and you know at first people say what are we
00:31:13
doing doing anything on education and I said this translates into Finance uh in in the end and uh uh and I showed you
00:31:23
know showed how it did and so I did this study with several thousand students and
00:31:28
we got background information so uh controlling for uh the education to the parents we got data on you know whether
00:31:38
they were immigrants uh whether they were low income uh uh you know all of these things and then looking at
00:31:46
teachers and that for Teacher quality we had the scores on the national teacher exam uh the college they went to and
00:31:56
their the number of their absences uh and so we got measures of them anyway found as you might expect and we are now
00:32:06
fully back there uh that uh this the most disadvantaged students have the teachers who had the lowest grade on the
00:32:15
national teachers exam the most absences uh and the you know and the poorest results
00:32:22
Etc and I was horrified and the uh the salaries and teachers only come everybody gets a certain percentage
00:32:31
salary increase every and I came out advocating that like the rest of the world outstanding teachers should be
00:32:39
rewarded and very poor teachers should be let go well I think you can imagine the way the unions uh felt about it and
00:32:47
the union invited me to give a talk uh and they were furious and I spoke to 300 very angry people and so on but
00:32:58
I just said outstanding people deserve reward people who we can demonstrate that was the
00:33:05
point we can show that they were unsuccessful and that there were people who who were if you want efficiency
00:33:12
that's what you have to have and and so on so that's how I came in to education
00:33:18
and the New York State Legislature invited me to come up their subcommittee on education to talk about the findings
00:33:26
on this in this study and the head of the National Association of teachers and so on was there too
00:33:34
and after the meeting was over he came up to me he said Anita you're absolutely
00:33:40
right and it will never happen and he was right so that anyway I came into education
00:33:49
from a financial Point that's what I'm saying so as we bring this to a close
00:33:55
imagine that you are at the chalkboard or white at the white board or Blackboard or chalkboard whatever we
00:34:03
call it these days and uh you were reflecting on your career what three words would you write that
00:34:12
best capture what you've learned over the course of your incredible career my
00:34:17
first absolutely first thing to say would be Focus apart from the the substance of the work
00:34:28
you're doing on Integrity remembering [Music] all of the participants who are affected
00:34:34
by what you're thinking of whether it's a private sector or public sector
00:34:41
maintaining the standards of integrity and I feel uh people have to learn to submerge their
00:34:55
self-interest when they're talking about uh public policy issues the so-called think tanks what have we
00:35:06
got a thousand of them in the country there are really five the others are uh are lobbyists
00:35:15
they call themselves think tanks but they are they are only examining what the the the person making in the
00:35:23
contract wants to have is the answer and they're asked to prove it I'm talking
00:35:28
about absolute think tanks and Mathematica is an example for example no one of their employees may be active in
00:35:39
a political party they can be a member of the party they may not make large contributions and they may not be
00:35:44
identified in any way all their contracts all their contracts with the federal government that they do
00:35:52
on analyzing policies there's a stipulation that if the government that the department that ordered the the
00:36:00
thing doesn't come out with the findings within three four months mathematical
00:36:06
will I'm just giving you illustrations of integrity and they have maintained it
00:36:12
very very few have secondly I think everywhere we go in Pub in policy public policy we should be
00:36:23
the words evidence base are being used and but we should be understanding evidence-based and the answer has to be
00:36:32
evidence not your values and I think the integrity and evidence-based go hand and hand
00:36:44
and uh and so the the third thing I would say today in terms of Business Schools and
00:36:53
so on is that we are now having for the first time that I remember discussions of what Corporate social responsibility
00:37:02
should be we know that 185 or so signed that whole contract about a year or so ago but we don't know whether or not in
00:37:12
fact in the boardrooms the discussions are not just what the investors are going to get by way of return but
00:37:21
whether what employees that remains to be seen and it's a balance because of course there's strong
00:37:34
Merit in focusing on the profits but at the same time how do we incorporate the benefits of social responsibility to
00:37:45
it now I I do know that in one of the major Wall Street firms for example they'd a few years ago began to be
00:37:55
interested in climate changes as a big beneficial issue to society and began to think about investing in it
00:38:05
and then decided they would invest in all these new firms coming up developing new new
00:38:13
gadgets and all of that and it turns out they're making a fortune from it because
00:38:18
it's a growth industry now not everything may work that way but it's an illustration where they were attracted
00:38:25
to it first as I understand it by the demands of of all the new techniques of of climate control
00:38:35
and it turned out to be very beneficial obviously some of them won't but to have
00:38:41
those social things on the agenda um and then think through and the other last comment I would make
00:38:51
there is I think that uh those going into Social Work activity of various kinds should
00:39:06
be equally looking at what business school Financial techniques uh uh you know or
00:39:16
you know all kinds of business managerial techniques to bring those more to government
00:39:23
that government can clearly learn a great deal from private sector I think there's Mutual examination ahead
00:39:34
both ways well Anita Summers it has been my sheer Delight to sit down with you and have
00:39:43
this conversation I learned a lot I know our viewers will absolutely learn a lot
00:39:48
and we are grateful to claim you we are grateful for the contributions you have made over the years to the Wharton
00:39:54
School and to broader Society through your intellectual prowess in economics and public policy thank you thank you
00:40:02
for not saying you're congratulating on my being a woman thank you very much it was my honor to
00:40:11
be here thank you foreign