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Newly admitted solicitors, when they come to the Law Society, we tell them about integrity. Integrity is something
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you either have it or you don't. It's not something you can have a little of. I'm very clear that that perhaps has
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weighed against me, but I'm also clear that in the still of the night, my conscience is clear. The pandemic did in
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48 hours what perhaps would have taken the legal profession 10 years to do, and that was to absolutely embrace
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technology. As the president, I had to go out publicly and admit that the information that we had put out, that I
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had signed off, was incorrect. So, own it. It was mine to own. And I think, you know, having the courage to do that is
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one of those characteristics of a good leader. >> This podcast is brought to you by Beyond
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Governance, a multi-award-winning full-service governance consultancy. At Beyond Governance, we work with boards,
00:00:53
executives, and organizations who want to get governance right, not just on paper, but in practice. Whether that's
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navigating risk, strengthening board effectiveness, or building the kind of resilience that holds up when it really
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to beyondgovernance.com or click the link in the episode description to learn more about how we can work together.
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Now, let's get back to the show. Welcome to Grit in the Boardroom. I'm Erica Iliasan Norris, and today I'm
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joined by Dr. I. Stephanie Boyce, CBE, FKC. A solicitor, governance leader, and public servant who's shaped public
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conversations. Welcome, Stephanie. >> Thank you. >> Let's get into it. So, to start, most
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people introduce you as the first person of color and first black president of the Law
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Society. I think that understates your story. You inherited one of Britain's oldest
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institutions during COVID, political upheaval, attacks on the legal profession, and
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major regulatory reform. Rather than revisit the milestones, I'd like to understand from you what those
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moments taught you about leading institutions under pressure. So, to begin with, your presidency began in
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extraordinary circumstances, as I've just said. Can you take us inside the boardroom during the first weeks of
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COVID, and what were some of the hardest decisions when nobody had reliable information?
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>> Mhm. Uh well, first of all, COVID started when I was deputy vice president. Um and
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of course, uh I think what it taught us is actually we uh miscalculated, underestimated,
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however you choose to frame it, as to how long it would last for. And perhaps initially, you know, thinking it would
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last for a few weeks, maybe a few months, but, you know, um as we now know, it went on for a considerable
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amount of time. So, coming to it as deputy vice president, when the courts shut, um uh the country shut down, you
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know, it was interesting times because COVID perhaps did, the pandemic did in 48 hours what perhaps would have taken
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the legal profession 10 years to do, and that was to absolutely embrace technology. And fast forward 5-6 years
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later, we still have huge swathes of this country that has, as it did then, do not have the infrastructure, the
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broadband, the equipment um that was needed to embrace that technology. And of course, lots of us were feeling our
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way in the dark because, certainly in my lifetime, I had never been um uh had never lived through a pandemic.
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Um and so, there was so much unknown. How did How did we keep the wheels of justice turning? How did we answer the
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queries, the many queries that were coming from government, membership, the public? Um how were our members
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continuing to serve clients all through the unknown? And yes, lots of it we were guessing. But at the
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heart of that was actually trying to do the best with what you had and trying to give our members a steer
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as to and be innovative in terms of like witnessing wills. That was difficult because you needed people to witness
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wills, independent people to witness wills. And of course, you know, we had that
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distancing. We weren't allowed to socialize. But I was surrounded by great team. As deputy vice president and
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coming into it as president, when I came to the presidency in March 2021, we had
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been in and out of lockdown for over a year. And in fact, my inaugural address was given
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in a very closed Chancery Lane. There was three of us in the building, myself, the security guard, and an advisor. The
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building would remain closed in total for 15 months. It was an absolute difficult period, but
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the profession and lots of other people were looking to the society, to the president, to the office holders
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to lead. And that is absolutely what we had to do was lead under that pressure and not be
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defined by that pressure, but be steady and be clear and and and decisive in taking the decisions that were
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ultimately taken. >> And at the time, what kept you up at night? >> Gosh, what kept me up to up at night?
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I did a recording that I often go back and watch. And that recording was done for a
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local college in my area. And I remember, you know, doing it from my bedroom. Um
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and then talking about the pandemic and waiting for a vaccine to be found. And it's just,
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you know, when I go back and I listen to that and I talk about the the lives that
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I been lost and being in lockdown and, you know, and all of that, it now seems somewhat surreal. But, the reality that
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was keeping us awake was whether or not we were going to live or whether or not we were going to die. And coupled with
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that was whether as a profession um when others were looking to to us to keep those wheels of justice turning, how did
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we keep and make the public feel safe? And the police, um they continued to do their jobs. People The pandemic did not
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stop people from um committing crime. There was still um a healthy appetite of that going on, but those individuals
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need to be represented. Um they need to be processed through the the the justice
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system. And it was supporting our members. So, when an exemption came um as to who could travel and who couldn't
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for work, uh criminal defense solicitors um were able to um get that exemption so
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they could continue to represent. But again, lots of that was done virtually where it was um
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appropriate. But sometimes it wasn't always appropriate. You had to go to a police station, a cell, and visit um the
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accused. But so, it was lots of things that was keeping me awake. But I think primarily was
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trying to be that voice of strength and to be a visible leader whilst at the same time trying to manage
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your own um uh anxieties, your own concerns around what was going on around you.
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>> And what decision from back then still stays with you? >> It was the calmness, you know, not only
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of myself. Um the calmness, the visibility of the Law Society, of the office holders.
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The decisions we made that um we were available. And, you know, we were very much at that time as I say, I
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came to it as deputy vice president. There was the vice president and the president of the day
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who had to be all things to all people. You couldn't say to the conveyancing market
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that, you know, temporarily shut cuz people were in the middle of of, you know, the the process to move homes.
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People still wanted to move homes. Life had to continue. So, we absolutely had to be very visible
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and demonstrable leadership. And so, the decisions there was to continue, to keep
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calm and carry on. >> So, looking back, what would you say to boards about making decisions when you
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only have, say, 60% of the information that you need to be able to make that decision, but you are forced to make
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those decisions? >> Mhm. What I would say is to boards that only have some of the facts not all of the
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facts. If you can, try and get as much information as you can. Um where that's not possible,
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um then, you know, consult. If you can't, because obviously the pandemic is probably a good example of that. In as
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much that, you know, the feeling around in the dark is that actually we hadn't experienced lots of the things that the
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pandemic threw at us. And it was making those decisions with not having all of the facts. But, it's
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important that you have, when you only have some of the facts, is that you are assured that you only have some of the
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facts, that you have the right voices in the room. Um you ask the right questions. Um and if you
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make those decisions based on some of the facts, then you have to be flexible. So, if you later haven't made that
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decision, you get the rest of the information, you need to revisit the decision you've made, if you can, where
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appropriate. And then, is it still the right decision to have made at the time? Do you need to go back and qualify us?
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So, of course we'd always want to have the all of the facts, but a realization that you're not always going to have all
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of the information, but based on the information that you have, make sure that you have done your due diligence
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with the information you've got, and check, consult, and don't be afraid to say I don't have all the facts, but this is
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based on the facts that I have, this is the decision that has been made. >> You just touched on something there,
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that kind of honesty piece. Obviously, that kind of sits very strongly with you. I could tell just by the way you
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said that to me. Are there any other traits that are really important when you are in that
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position as a board? >> What I think is important as a board, first of all, that you are, you know,
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that collective responsibility that we keep hearing lots about. And there seems to be a growing
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fad where some people want to dip in and out of that collective responsibility. But as a board, it's working together as
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a team. And if you do disagree, to borrow a phrase, is that you disagree well. So, it might
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be that we don't always agree. You know, I mean, there'd be something strange if
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we all agreed all of the time. But the other thing is to assure, be assured as to the different voices around the
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table. Who is being heard and who's not being heard? So, who's not speaking up? Who's
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not said anything? And I think it's important that you bring that in because lots of times, in lots of rooms that
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I've been in, it's been the same people talking all of the time. And I'm always conscious
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when I'm in the room, and certainly as chair, to ensure that everybody has the opportunity to speak, even if they say,
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"I have nothing to say." But then, you know, I kind of have to think, "Okay." But, if that's a
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consistent I have nothing to say, then that's a quiet word as to why um that individual consistently
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uh and persistently has nothing to say. But, the other traits are for me, you've
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got to listen, you've got to be an active listening, uh not just listening and then, you
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know, you ask somebody a couple seconds later and they've totally forgotten what
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it was that they were supposed to be listening to. Honesty is absolutely important, and
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there were many of times during uh my tenure at the society where we had taken a decision, a very public
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decision, to do something, and then it turns out it was incorrect. Um and as the president, I had to go out
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publicly and admit that the information that we had put out um uh that I had signed off was incorrect.
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It was so onerous, it was mine to own. And I think, you know, having the courage to do that is um
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is one of those characteristics of a good leader. Nobody likes somebody who, you know,
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sits on the fence. People, when they look to leaders, they want somebody who is clear, who communicates well, who has
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good judgment, values that comes with that, um ethics, we hear that all the time, but one cannot underestimate
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uh the value of good judgment, you know, ethics, honesty, integrity, you know, uh
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one of things we tell uh newly admitted solicitors when they come to the law society, we tell them about integrity.
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Integrity is something you either have it or you don't. It's not something you can have a little of.
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Um and how important that is um as we progress in our professional lives. >> During your presidency, you've defended
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the independence of the legal profession when lawyers were publicly criticized over
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representing unpopular clients, for instance. How did you decide then where that
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professional leadership ended and where politics began? Because it can be a bit of a blurry subject.
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>> Absolutely. But there are some things that remains clear that and separate from political decision. For instance,
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you know, for me rule of law. For me, it's not a political decision. And of course there are decisions that taken
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around it that may might make it political. Um but you know, the idea that individuals should be represented no
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matter how heinous of uh an individual they might be or the crime they've committed, but that they should be
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entitled to legal representation. Another example being around the proposals around jurorless trials, where
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I have been very outspoken about that because for me it's fundamental to our constitution as to who we are as a
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society. It's one of the few levers that we've got that members of the public have got to participate in our justice
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system um as to what goes on to be judged by your peers. And I know as lawyers we disagree at times whether
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that's set out uh in the Magna Carta or not. And of course many of us will say it is to be judged by your peers.
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Um for me that's not a political argument. It is um a fundamental one to who we are
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as a society. And um as I say set down in our governing documents, the Magna Carta and the like. But of course there
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are individuals who will politicize it, but I am against jurorless trials because I believe that we should be
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judged by our peers. Um but I have less to say about it uh um as time goes on as others have uh made the
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similar points. >> Was there a point where in your career to date remaining silent would have been
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easier? And why did you choose not to do that? What's the impact if you do stay silent?
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>> The impact of staying silent is not only you're doing a disservice to those around you, to those who you are
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leading or representing, um is that actually, you know, I remember years ago coming across a badge
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that, you know, and I think it was from ACT UP, um the activist bodies that was um campaigning for AIDS awareness and so
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forth. And it said, you know, "Silence equals death." Um and, you know, there have been many instances and times
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throughout our history where people have remained silent um for a number of reasons. But I think for
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me and, you know, when I came out very publicly, um uh you know, countering the government of
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the day around lefty lawyers and so forth. For me, it was absolutely right that I did that. Um in front of the
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grand staircase at the Law Society, you know, um that the president should take leadership on that because
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one of the reasons for that was that lawyers, solicitors were being targeted. >> Mhm.
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>> They were being attacked. Um individuals were going around parts of uh London posting individuals'
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addresses, names, phone numbers, you know, on on on lamp posts and and so forth. Other individuals had gone into a
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law firm and attacked lawyers. Um you know, and they were, you know, I was in a a ferry going across to the
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Isle of Wight and I got a telephone call from a senior partner because of uh a package that had been received in the
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post and the police had subsequently become involved. All of those things. Individuals were being put at risk. Um
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and there was a way that points could be made without putting individuals at risk. And of course, we saw that again
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um a few years ago, a few summers ago with the riots, the summer riots, where immigration lawyers were being
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specifically targeted. But I was asked last year or uh the year before before I received my
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CBE that same question about remaining silent. Uh and I said, you know, they said you sit there with no position or
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title. Do you think if you had perhaps not been as vocal, you might have a position and title? Um and I said,
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"Absolutely. I'm very clear that that perhaps has weighed against me. But I'm also clear that in the still of the
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night, when I'm lying there, you know, and it's just me, my conscious conscience is clear.
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Um and I remain steadfast to that." >> Wow, that's quite compelling, let's say feedback from somebody, but it's very
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grounded, I think, in who you are as a person to be looking at the impact that you have on others over titles and
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anything else that might kind of come along with that. But that's quite something, I think.
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>> Thank you. >> What do you think boards should do when external pressures conflict with the
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organization's values? >> Mm. I think because we've seen this over the last couple of years, we are in the
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midst of a storm almost daily with social media um and people's ability to call it organizations, individuals out.
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I think there is something in pausing and taking time in that discomfort at times. For instance, you know, we're
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often told if you're going to send an email, you know, maybe sleep on it, think about it. And that's exactly what
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organizations need to do before they go out and say something, that actually take the time to pause. Not a long
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pause, because if you take too long, people fill the gaps in. Rightly or wrongly, they fill the gaps in. But, you
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know, but equally, if you go too fast, you might get ahead of yourself and actually
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um you might not put yourself, the organization, in the best position if you had taken to
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consider uh the whole environment as to what's going on, um and to assemble as many facts as you can before pushing
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out statements. Um And And actually, sometimes, as I say, that sometimes the situation sorts
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itself out, or you might need to amend the organization's position as to what you first thought it might be by taking
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that time to think or to pause. >> And how do you prepare for that? Because preparation is key. As you say, you need
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to take time to think, but you also need those stakeholders of the those other parties available to speak to at that
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critical moment. What sort of preparations do you do? I suppose from a governance process perspective to make
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sure that at that crisis point, you are ready to take action. Not necessarily to
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jump in, as you say, to communicate, but ready to take action and start thinking
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about what you're going to communicate. >> Yes. Well, I guess it depends what the
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issue is or or what's going on. Um you know, because you might have I call it a circle of influence. Some
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people will call it advisers. But, different stakeholders, you might need to go to different stakeholders to find
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out if what is being said or alleged or, you know, what's happening, who's affected by this. Or you might need to
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call on um you know, whether it's the circle of influence, the advisors, whoever, for
00:21:09
additional information. Cuz it's making sure that you've got the information to make that informed decision. And if we
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jump in too quickly, we don't always have that. Um, and consequently, may make the wrong
00:21:21
decision. So, for me, it's consulting. It's making sure that actually you are listening and
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asking the right questions. If it's about processes, you obviously want the information, the documentation. You
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know, show me what's being done and go from there. But it's also you, the individual, the you know, and
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those around the table also have to be open-minded as to the information that's coming in and the information that's
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going out. Um, and where it's coming from and who says what. So, loads of times, uh, at
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the society, we'd have the press calling up. They'd be calling up because of something or whatever. And actually,
00:22:01
there's nothing wrong with taking time to say, "We'll come back to you." But as I say, you've got to be careful because
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if you leave it too long, some will make up stories to fill the space. >> Yeah, I've worked in listed businesses
00:22:15
the whole of my career and stock exchange announcements and advising the the public at large on what is
00:22:22
happening, particularly if they are critical decisions, price-sensitive kind of decisions. They you like you say,
00:22:29
they need to be made at the point where information has landed, is solidified to an extent. Sometimes not always 100%,
00:22:38
but to a level that it will start to move the price. Um, so that's something that can be quite critical in a number
00:22:45
of different organizations, but as you say, it doesn't have to be a listed environment for crises to erupt and for
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challenge to kind of happen as a result. >> Absolutely. And I think it's that, you
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know, it goes back to that honesty part. But actually, if you haven't got the answer, If you know, or or you're still
00:23:02
dealing with whatever it is and still trying to put the information together, then
00:23:06
for me, and I know we're moving towards a point where actually people see that as a weakness. But I think if you
00:23:13
communicate it, it's all about how you communicate, how you tell that story. And sometimes being honest and just
00:23:19
saying, "I don't know." or "We will come back to you, whoever, once we have that
00:23:25
information." I think that goes a long way. >> Do you think we'll ever get to a point
00:23:29
where honesty is not the best policy? I.e. just pushing ahead and in those circumstances
00:23:37
taking a line on it and then apologizing afterwards as opposed to being honest and saying, "I don't know."
00:23:43
>> Well, I think we see a lot of that. I I I >> [laughter] >> I think that's the default position that
00:23:48
lots of bodies, organizations, individuals take. And I think we, the people, the public are becoming very uh
00:23:57
worrisome of um you know, when people then come back and apologize. Um you know, there is a loss
00:24:04
of loss loss of trust um in those institutions, stakeholders, and so forth where actually in the beginning
00:24:13
they could have said and they would probably have been more respected for being honest rather
00:24:19
than trying to dress something up. But I think the worst thing is is that when most people know what's coming out is
00:24:26
not honest, but individuals, institutions, stakeholders, whatever, they continue to tow that
00:24:34
line. Um and then you know, and we have a real issue with that um at the moment with trust because
00:24:42
we've got so much information, lots of misinformation. And so, you know, people are asking
00:24:48
"If you write something, did you write that? Or did you have help with that?" Um you know, if something is posted,
00:24:55
something is said, somebody does something, all of those things. Um and again, we, in my view, have to decide
00:25:04
the type of society that we want to be. And we need to get back that trust um in
00:25:09
institutions, bodies, individuals. Um because it's that distrust that is overwhelming us and is creating
00:25:18
and fueling, if you ask me, lots of that distrust. >> Mhm. And it has a massive impact on
00:25:25
reputation as a result. Um there's definitely some challenges around there. Do you think it's there's
00:25:32
ever a point where avoiding controversy is not necessarily reputationally the best
00:25:40
approach, but it is something that will affect your reputation, but you decide to embrace that controversy
00:25:48
anyway, because actually uh dealing with that particular event in the way that you need to, no doubt
00:25:54
you've had experiences of this yourself, um is the is the best approach. >> Mhm.
00:26:01
Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, an example, I'll give you one example, there are many
00:26:06
examples, but having appeared on uh mainstream TV, I don't really do so Well, I don't do
00:26:14
social media at all, except for one particular platform, professional platform. But having appeared on
00:26:20
mainstream TV, they posted, you know, they've got active social media channels, but there
00:26:26
was lots of comments around my gender, around my ethnicity, around the you know, the way
00:26:33
I looked, and all of those things. And people can say what they want, as these individuals did. And yes, I was amazed
00:26:43
by some of the things that they said, because I thought I looked quite good, actually.
00:26:46
>> [laughter] >> Um and and you know, and what was really interesting was the focus on, you know,
00:26:51
the look, the gender, rather than the substance of what was being said, cuz there was no comments around that. It
00:26:57
was just, you know, the rest of that. Um, and what I did was, I then, on the social uh platform that I'm on, put out
00:27:06
a very clear message in general about these comments. But, rather than addressing the comments directly,
00:27:13
actually, um you know, made a statement about um you know, individuals who think it's okay to do
00:27:21
that. And I can't remember what I said, but the point was is that many a times, and I've been
00:27:27
lucky or fortunate, I don't know what you choose to call it, that people, if they have chosen to say
00:27:33
something about me, I do not respond to them. So, if people leave comments on my
00:27:37
particular uh uh platform, I do not engage with them because, and I will block them if
00:27:44
they go that far. But, I've had individuals who I've blocked and then they just recreate something else and
00:27:49
come back, so you know, in a different guise. But, I don't because that just fuels them. But, if I have a particular
00:27:54
point, if they've made such an odious point, and I feel that I can address it, then I will. But, I tend not to because
00:28:00
I think actually, for me, on many occasions, going back to the the original, you know, the initial
00:28:06
question, silence at times speaks volumes um in that particular instance. >> Hi everyone, your host Eric Relles and
00:28:14
Norris here. I want to take a quick moment to talk about something close to me. Every conversation I have on this
00:28:19
podcast comes back to the same thing, the pressure of making high-stakes decisions with real consequences and
00:28:25
doing it with integrity. That's exactly why Beyond Governance exists. We partner
00:28:29
with leaders and boards who refuse to treat governance as a box-ticking exercise because the cost of getting it
00:28:34
wrong is too high. If that resonates with you, go to beyondgovernance.com or click the link in the episode
00:28:40
description to explore what we do. Right, now back to the show. >> That must have been really difficult for
00:28:45
you. I think people of all different kind of backgrounds will have different things that they are potentially
00:28:52
criticized for, rightly, often wrongly, by dare I say it, faceless people that are on social
00:29:00
media, that are behind a screen, and don't think that the person on the other side is a real person, or they they
00:29:07
don't care about it. How as a leader do you manage that? Because that's something that as a
00:29:14
leader you step up, you want to do the right thing, you participate in, you know, news, TV, whatever else it
00:29:23
might be, and you do it for all the right reasons, and someone comes in and cuts you down.
00:29:30
That's not part of the job description or what you signed up for, and it's not really what you want as a result.
00:29:37
How do you deal with that? >> Well, I mean, absolutely. Firstly, you know, um I always say, I know who I am. You know,
00:29:46
I'm not defined by uh those faceless individuals. And I remember there's a a saying, I don't
00:29:54
know who said it, but uh I used to use it very often uh during my tenure, but you know, what other people think about
00:30:00
me is absolutely none of my business. Um because that would keep me awake at night.
00:30:07
>> Yeah. >> And if I had, you know, the four attempts it took me to uh get elected to become uh president,
00:30:15
if I had listened to some of the advice I was given, um I wouldn't be uh I would never have
00:30:22
become uh president. If I had listened to some of the uh advice that I had been given along the way of my professional
00:30:31
journey. So, for instance, not that I'm advocating people should do this, but I stopped taking feedback from job
00:30:38
interviews a long time ago. Um because I got to a point where I'd sit there listening to this rubbish when I knew
00:30:50
that I was the best person for that job. I had all the qualifications and all of
00:30:55
those things. Um and people would say stuff. They'd already given the person the job. Um,
00:31:03
or, you know, for whatever reason, and I can imagine, but for whatever reason, I
00:31:08
didn't get the job. And the trouble with feedback as I viewed it is that words they take They're like seeds. They take
00:31:17
root, you know? Um, and like a broken record, they play over and over and over. One of the last interviews I went to and
00:31:26
was given that feedback, that's exactly what happened. And I just made a decision, not interested. Not
00:31:32
interested. But fast forward post uh president and and so forth, I went for um a senior post um public appointment
00:31:42
post last year. Um, and one of the feedback, unsolicited I might just add, but that I was too polished.
00:31:49
Um, and they were concerned that I would not be able to interact with people. And I just went
00:31:55
hm? You know, because the thing about it is people find every and anything to justify not giving you a role. Now, the
00:32:03
individual who was appointed, you know, okay, I can see perhaps what they mean. But I just think sometimes
00:32:12
that people and their feedback is not always in my best interest, so I don't take it. But as I say, I don't advocate
00:32:19
that everybody should do this. >> When it comes to kind of leading the society and all those sorts of
00:32:27
roles that you've had, obviously feedback comes in many different forms. How do you
00:32:34
work out the balance between arrogance of I don't need to hear anyone else's opinion and self-preservation as you've
00:32:41
just described. Because so many leaders have to go through that, whether they're
00:32:45
a CEO on a board, whether they are a trustee, and they have feedback given to them and they may not agree with it.
00:32:53
They may actually think that is factually incorrect because someone has a particular bias or whatever else it
00:33:00
might be. What are your experiences? >> Well, absolutely all of that. But for me, it's about listening. About those
00:33:08
views that I may agree or disagree with. But how am I going to grow as a leader if I'm not prepared to listen, you know,
00:33:16
if I surround myself with people who tell me what I want to hear and tell me how great I am and all of that. A, I'm
00:33:21
not growing and B, they're not being honest and I'm not being honest with myself. So actually the best times are
00:33:28
when of those challenges come. And when you have individuals who don't agree with you. But as I say, we agree to
00:33:35
disagree and to do so well. But it's important as part of that growth, that development, that you have
00:33:43
people who will challenge, who will say, "Actually, I don't agree with that decision, Stephanie."
00:33:49
And important that you embrace that and say, "Well, why not? You know, what do you think? What would you have done
00:33:55
better?" You know, I was at school the other day as part of my attempts to raise aspirations and so forth. I went
00:34:02
into a school and a young lad said to me, "If you had a million pounds, no, actually, if you had a trillion pounds,
00:34:09
what would you spend it on?" And I said, "What would you spend it on?" I won't tell you the answer, but but you
00:34:16
[laughter] know, it's it's it's it's it's exactly that that actually being open and um
00:34:23
mature enough to listen to other people's views rather than just your lonesome voice.
00:34:30
You you and I think sometimes lots of leaders, they close themselves off, whether they recognize that or not, they
00:34:37
close themselves off to hearing opposite views to what they hold. >> And it can identify blind spots, I
00:34:44
guess. >> Absolutely. Absolutely, cuz it might be something that I haven't thought of. You
00:34:49
know, we haven't thought of. You know, that's the importance of having different voices in the room, different
00:34:55
thinking. That actually that with that comes challenge or like you said, the blind spots that you may never have
00:35:01
thought about. All of those things, it's important because, you know, we don't know everything.
00:35:07
Um, and it's important that we have people in there um as part of the conversation, as part
00:35:12
of the decision-making who can fill those gaps in. >> And obviously that's kind of part of
00:35:17
judgment, a personal judgment. But if we move that back to the board, what are your
00:35:23
kind of thoughts on early signs of the beginning of a board losing its judgment?
00:35:31
>> I think the earliest signs, the earliest warnings is when you have you know, when you're in a board meeting
00:35:38
and A, it goes it ends very quickly with lots of nods and little challenge or questioning. Everybody just
00:35:47
kind of agrees or nods. Um, and I will sit there thinking, I wonder who's read the papers or not as
00:35:55
the case might be. But I also find that a really interesting spectacle um because actually the best boards that
00:36:02
I've sat on and enjoyed are the ones where there is that challenge. I know lots of people sit and volunteer their
00:36:09
time for different reasons. Um, some people get paid. But, you know, it goes back to that point.
00:36:16
What's the purpose here? Are you just here, you know, to have that on your CV so it will look good or do you really
00:36:22
want to make a difference on this board for the organization, institution, whatever, that you are there to serve.
00:36:31
>> And have you ever seen a board convince itself that a wrong decision was right?
00:36:38
>> So, in in my professional career, I've had the privilege of sitting on both sides of the table as a board member and
00:36:44
as a general counsel, company secretary, and the likes. Um and yes, and I have had that and
00:36:53
also, you know, when you try to challenge um or provide the advice as to why that
00:36:59
shouldn't be, um why that decision perhaps needs to be reviewed. Also, had that point where
00:37:05
told that lawyers are obstructive. You know, they're there to advise and nothing else. But, those organizations
00:37:11
where I've seen that happen, the reality is they don't last long. Something happens
00:37:18
that then leads to uh the organization either closing or individuals leaving or being removed.
00:37:29
>> And you just spoke a little bit about lawyers being badged sometimes as obstructive. And I've seen that so many
00:37:38
times in different organizations that I've been in. Sometimes rightly, often wrongly.
00:37:44
How do How do lawyers balance that? Because there's a certain amount of, I suppose, commerciality that sometimes is
00:37:52
seen as being more important than actually following legal due process, which is not helpful. And other times
00:37:59
where there is there are some gray or more gray areas, in which case commercialism
00:38:05
can be part of that. How do they balance it? >> Well, if done rightly, the balance is
00:38:13
because here's the thing, as lawyers, you know, solicitors, barristers, whatever,
00:38:17
we have had to sign up to legal principles. We have a duty um an overriding duty to
00:38:25
um to the cause. And one of the things when I first went in-house, and of course in-house now in the solicitor
00:38:31
profession, one of the fastest growing areas of the profession, I think we're about
00:38:36
about 30% of the profession is in-house now. Um is that we didn't have We now have these guiding principles um because
00:38:44
there was a tension between your overriding duties to the cause um and to uh the employer who didn't understand
00:38:53
that actually the duty is This is my first duty, not to the employer. And there was a tension there. And of course
00:39:00
we're seeing the fall out of some of that now where people have perhaps got muddled or
00:39:05
under pressure um or just bad judgment or ethically ineptness where we're seeing
00:39:13
the consequences of some of those decisions taken. But having to educate people and say
00:39:20
that actually we are there to give you the advice and point out some of the um uh you know, some of the issues that may
00:39:30
crop up to do that horizon scanning, but to act in the best interests of the organization as well as those overriding
00:39:37
duties um and so forth. So lots of people have said, "That's it." And when I was uh an office holder
00:39:45
one of the things that I did was um speak up very vigorously around this notion that lawyers are obstructers
00:39:53
rather than actually what can we bring to the to the business. And trying to get people
00:39:58
uh because you know, I still get lots of recruiters who will call up and say "Yes, but they'd rather not have a
00:40:05
lawyer. So is there anyone in your network, you know, who you can recommend who's not a lawyer?" Um
00:40:10
and so trying to educate people that actually we're there for a reason and some of that is around advice, but not
00:40:17
we're just going to, you know, um agree with what's being said, what's being done if it goes against those overriding
00:40:24
duties, but it's about education. >> Within the governance world, there are often general counsels that also occupy
00:40:32
the role of company secretary, and we've seen that in a number of organizations that have not been, let's say, as
00:40:39
successful or maybe kind of touching on scandal. How does somebody balance that? Because
00:40:45
the role of the general counsel is legal, the role of a company secretary is advising the board. And then, as a
00:40:52
lawyer, you also have your responsibilities to the court. So, how how does that all kind of interplay,
00:40:58
and is it possible to manage all of that? >> It's an It's an interesting dynamics,
00:41:03
and I've been in several roles where that has been the case. Um and again, I mean, it's a few years back now, and as
00:41:10
I say, we've now got um uh an ethical framework in place, you know, to to help uh
00:41:17
with some of that balancing and some of those conversations, but it has been difficult. And some of the the, you
00:41:23
know, the accusations that have been levied as to the obstruction that lawyers bring, you
00:41:28
know, in trying to balance that. And some people have taken it even further. I've seen
00:41:33
uh an organization where the general counsel is also the deputy CEO. >> Ooh. >> And when we
00:41:41
pointed or attempted to point that out, um neither one of those, CEO general counsel, could see what the issue was.
00:41:49
I'm pleased that they have now uh sorted that arrangement, but you know, again, it goes from that
00:41:55
education piece, trying to get people to understand the distinct roles, and I think lots of times, that's where the
00:42:02
issue is. That's that people do not understand that those roles should be distinct and separate.
00:42:07
>> Yeah. So, bringing us back to your story, you mentioned it um just a moment ago, the fact that you
00:42:18
took four attempts before becoming president. Looking back, do you think that you
00:42:25
changed over the course of those four different times, or do you think that just thoughts and maybe the institution
00:42:31
or the people involved changed? And what what made you have that resilience to just keep going?
00:42:38
>> Well, both of those things. Both I changed, the institution changed. You know, as I say, I'm still evolving,
00:42:47
uh still growing and learning. For me, every day is got to be a school day, and that's what I tell my my family. But,
00:42:54
the time it took me, I mean, first of all, even if I didn't succeed on the fourth attempt, I would have continued,
00:43:00
fifth, sixth, seventh, because I felt I had something to offer that was so different to what had been
00:43:09
um there before. And it wasn't just about um the fact that, you know, I was going
00:43:15
to become the first uh person of color, first black president. Those are titles. And yes,
00:43:22
recognition of what I achieved. Um but so much more lies behind that. Um and that resilience was that I knew if I
00:43:32
got there, how amazing it would be. Cuz, you know, I would do things differently. Uh the
00:43:37
pandemic, you know, um helped and hindered some of that. But, that resilience was about uh and I
00:43:46
absolutely believe a personal mantra that has guided my career, that every door is open if you push. You persevere
00:43:52
until something happens. And throughout my life, I've had to navigate barriers. I'm still navigating barriers.
00:43:59
Some seen and unseen. And that resilience, I think, has come through um some of that navigation, some of my
00:44:08
childhood growing up, um, seeing the injustices for me that was going on in this country, globally,
00:44:16
um, some of things that's still going on. You know, I was watching the news yesterday evening
00:44:22
following, uh, the recent earthquake in Venezuela. And again, the disparity between rich and poor and who is being
00:44:30
helped and who's not. And tears came to my eyes. Um, because I do think that, um,
00:44:38
you know, we're all humans. We're all humankind. But this notion and and something that I'm now credited
00:44:46
with transforming what a leader should look like, but this notion of who we put in positions of power and
00:44:54
influence and what they should look like, um, bothers me, continues to bother me, because talent,
00:45:02
if allowed, is evenly spread, but the opportunities are not. And I've always said that, uh, and I remember one of the
00:45:10
first times as DVP, I went to speak, I spoke at a law firm, city law firm. And, uh, an individual put their hand up and
00:45:18
said, "You know, listening to you has made me think that we've been looking in the wrong places when we've been
00:45:24
recruiting." So, this that is, you know, um, uh, Deputy Lieutenant Doctor I. Stephanie
00:45:33
Boyce, CBE, AFC. You know, and all the awards and accolades and and all of those things that have come.
00:45:40
But this was always here. Um, yes, it's evolved. Yes, it's grown. But the underlying talent, purpose of who I am,
00:45:48
the core, has always been there. But what becoming president did, it gave me an amazing platform to amplify my voice,
00:45:57
to have my voice heard. And that's one of the things that drives me, because far too often, so many people are
00:46:05
discounted because of a number of reasons. Um and I just want to spread the word as much as possible that
00:46:14
actually, you know, if I did it, anybody can do it. But also, that leadership, as
00:46:21
we know it, um or as we would like to think we know it, doesn't always look like we think it does.
00:46:29
>> And do you think there's a place for empathetic leadership? >> Absolutely. Um you know, if we I mean, I might be
00:46:37
slightly biased, but you know, if we look at some of the best leaders throughout history and recent times,
00:46:43
some of those have been um very empathetic. You know, um and I think some of the leaders who haven't
00:46:50
done the best in their position is because they have come across as being very distant. Um they haven't been able to
00:47:01
communicate, to be empathetic, all of those things. Do I think if you cry, you know,
00:47:08
um in public or you put your arm around, you know, someone because you've just visited somewhere where um you know,
00:47:16
there has been uh um um you know, something happened, uh the individual may have lost their home or
00:47:22
lost um a life taken, whatever. Am I going to think anything different of someone if they show that empathy?
00:47:32
No. I appreciate there will be individuals who may think that, but you know, for me,
00:47:38
that is the how I would like to think that I have led, taking people with me. Not trying to
00:47:44
drag people with me, but, you know, actually embracing and being vulnerable at times.
00:47:50
Um and showing that vulnerability with either crying or just listening and communicating and sharing my story.
00:47:57
People would say to me all the time, "Why do you tell people, you know, that you come from a single parent household,
00:48:02
grew up in a council state, you know, blah blah blah blah blah?" Um and I say because that is my badge. That
00:48:08
is who I am. And there is something liberating about when you tell your story cuz it gives people, not my words,
00:48:14
but um I think Marianne Williamson, but attributed to Nelson Mandela, there is something liberating when you tell your
00:48:21
story. You give, unconsciously give other people permission to tell their story.
00:48:26
>> That's incredibly powerful. How do people build that empathy? Do you think people are just
00:48:33
they either have it or they don't have it? Or do you think there are proactive things that you have experienced over
00:48:40
the course of time? Or maybe even in a particular moment you've thought, "I could choose to be overly strong and
00:48:49
polished and perfect, or I can choose to just be human." >> Mhm. Mhm. >> [clears throat]
00:48:54
>> So, all of those things. Um you know, so for instance, when I'm at home, you know, or with my family, that is a
00:49:01
different persona perhaps at times than, you know, if I'm out and about in a professional setting, depending on where
00:49:08
I am. But ultimately, as I say, it goes back to that core of who are you? What is it that I want to be remembered for?
00:49:18
Um and I absolutely believe that if I cannot lift someone up, then I should leave
00:49:24
them exactly where I found them. Um and I think we've kind of lost track of that. And for me, some of the best
00:49:30
leaders, the best bosses I have had, are not the ones who micromanage, are not the ones who, you know, are very distant
00:49:37
and cold. I once worked with an organization where um the director every morning he came
00:49:44
through that door and he had to come in on the floor, the open floor, to walk around to his office.
00:49:50
He never spoke to anyone. Never made eye contact, nothing. And you know, and I still remember that. Whereas when I was
00:49:56
training, um I spent the best part of um being down in reception, talking to the
00:50:02
receptionist. Uh I'll talk to anyone, me. When I go into a building, um you know,
00:50:07
because we're all a team. If the cleaner doesn't clean, you know, the room or wherever,
00:50:13
you don't you don't perform your best. You know, if the if the receptionist doesn't, you know, that's the first face
00:50:19
of the organization. All of those things. And and yes, okay, I may have a title that sets me apart, but
00:50:26
ultimately, going back to that core, we're humans. You know, we're human. My mother always says, you know, we all
00:50:33
bleed the same. It's the same color. Um but for some reason, at times, we have lost sight of that. And one of my
00:50:39
favorite quotes is, and I can't remember who says it, but you know, in a world where we can be anything, be kind. And I
00:50:46
tell uh when I go into schools, I tell them that all the time. In this world, with
00:50:51
all the noise, um all the pressures that are thrown at us as leaders, exactly that. Let's be kind. Let's be
00:50:58
empathetic. You know, who am I leaving out of the room? Who's not in this room, who should be? Who's not in the
00:51:05
conversation? Who's not part of the decision? >> And that perfectly brings us back to
00:51:12
boards and the way that they are structured and made up and the choices that are made on who is in that room and
00:51:19
who isn't in that room. Do you think the boards can get to a point where they are
00:51:25
almost just siloed? Their thoughts are very focused on just one type of individual or um not even necessarily in
00:51:36
looks, but just in thought process. So, thinking about kind of cognitive diversity.
00:51:42
Have you ever experienced that? Do you think that boards experience that? That's definitely something that I have
00:51:47
seen, not in every board that I've interacted with, but definitely some. >> Absolutely. I'll give you an example.
00:51:54
You know, when I left office, obviously I was looking for, you know, a job, a position. Um, and having just
00:52:01
left an organization of over 400 people, um, you know, a multi-million pound organization and having done it through
00:52:09
some of the most turbulent times in our nation's history, um, and so forth, to be then told that, um, you know,
00:52:17
well, you've never sat on a board, you know, a FTSE, whatever it was at the time, uh, you know, board, and so, you
00:52:24
know, you're unlikely to get onto one. And that has been something, because when you look at some of these, you
00:52:29
know, boards and and some of the the rollback on diversity on some of these boards.
00:52:36
And and it really bothers me that if we keep recruiting from the You see the same individuals popping up in the same
00:52:42
places all the time, and you just think, "Weren't you over there a minute ago? You were chairing that, weren't you? And
00:52:47
now you're over here." We're locking out talent. Um, and, you know, people cease to put themselves
00:52:54
forward because, and I've had that, you know, where I think, "Well, what's the point?" You know, you're either too
00:52:59
polished or you've never sat on a FTSE, whatever board, or, you know, they're not looking. They're looking at,
00:53:06
um, individuals who have who have all of that, but not willing to give others a chance
00:53:16
to acquire those skills and expertise. And so, as I say, the question for me is, who's in the room? Who's not in the
00:53:23
room? Who should be sat at the table? Do I really have to bring my own chair? You know, um,
00:53:29
I think it was Shirley Chisholm who said that. I'll bring my own camping chair, but I shouldn't need to. And what is the
00:53:35
story we're telling to those coming behind us as to who can get ahead, who can sit on
00:53:43
our boards, in our boardrooms. Some of the most important, defining decisions are being made about us as individuals,
00:53:51
about us as a nation and society and so forth. But yet, it doesn't replicate our
00:53:57
society. It doesn't replicate our society and therefore those blind spots, they keep coming up and up again and you
00:54:02
think, "We're here again." When actually, if we stop recruiting in our own likeness,
00:54:10
from our own networks, um and we're a bit bolder, braver, um and, you know, a bit more innovative,
00:54:19
I believe that we'd be a a richer, and not just in the monetary sense, but you know, a more richer,
00:54:25
um innovative society. >> What do you think is one of the biggest myths that boards
00:54:33
tell themselves about meritocracy? >> Dare I say it, it's not just akin to boards. So,
00:54:42
>> [laughter] >> so one of the things I talk lots about is is exactly that. Is that, you know,
00:54:48
not having an issue with merit, although I do. I don't have an issue with merit if it's
00:54:53
spread evenly. The difficulty is is that those who talk about recruiting on merit, they're not doing so equitably.
00:55:04
>> Yep. >> You know, there's all these different categories, levers, and all sorts that
00:55:09
most of us don't even know exist because, you know, had we gone to a particular school, a particular
00:55:16
university, then that would set us up very nicely to walk into a particular boardroom, a particular position, and so
00:55:24
forth. But the majority of us, that was not open to us to do that. Um and nor should we penalize people who
00:55:34
choose to highlight those particular issues. >> And you've spent your career defending public trust.
00:55:45
In your experience, do organizations lose trust because they break the law or because they slowly abandon their own
00:55:53
values or maybe both? >> Absolutely both. Absolutely. There are so many examples of exactly that.
00:56:01
And I think the other thing is is that, you know, organizations talk lots about values.
00:56:07
Uh I had a paper come across my desk the other day where they were talking I think it was a job description or
00:56:12
something about the organization's values. And I said, "Well, what are they?" When I went into a school last week, it
00:56:18
was very clear that as to what one of the the values were. And, you know, when I asked the children, they were very
00:56:24
clear as to what their values are. But, you go into some organizations and you ask some of the senior, you know,
00:56:30
leadership team, "What's your values?" You know, they're kind of looking at you, "Do you mean our mission statement
00:56:37
or or our vision statement or whatever it is?" And I used to be like, "Oh, that will do."
00:56:41
But, >> [laughter] >> you know, um so they're not clear on, you know, uh what that is. Um
00:56:50
so there is clarity that's needed. >> And final question for you. If you had 5 minutes with every UK board, listed,
00:56:59
unlisted, private, charity, not-for-profit, what would you tell them that they underestimate about trust?
00:57:07
>> It would take me a lot longer than 5 minutes. Actually, it'd probably take me
00:57:10
less because I think the fact that, you know, they take it for granted at times. It's
00:57:16
not valued. It's, you know, it's probably not even considered because at times we don't, going back to what I was
00:57:24
saying, we don't trust that we've got. How many times do we ask ourselves, "Who's in the room who shouldn't be in
00:57:29
the room?" You you "Who's at the table who's not at the table. When decisions are being taken,
00:57:34
are we thinking about the unintended consequences of those decisions and who they might affect and how they might
00:57:40
affect individuals? Or are we just busy being self-serving? We're on the board, we know better, and
00:57:48
so, you know, this is the right decision um as far as we're concerned, and that will do. Job done um and then they move
00:57:55
on to their next board meeting. >> And how do they build that trust? >> How do they build that trust? Well, I
00:58:00
think you have to engage people. So, communication's a big thing. Throughout my career, when I've had difficult
00:58:06
decisions to make, it's about telling a story. What is the narrative? Tell that story. People are more willing, inclined
00:58:13
to to to follow you, to go along with you if they understand and can see the journey. But, if they don't understand
00:58:21
it or you cannot articulate that story properly or clearly, people just, you know, they lose interest, they lose
00:58:28
trust. >> Thank you, Stephanie. Thank you for being on the show. >> Thank you. >> Erica again. I'm so excited to share my
00:58:36
final thoughts on today's conversation in just a moment. But, before that, a very quick reminder about Beyond
00:58:42
Governance. If anything in today's conversation has got you thinking about your own organization's approach to
00:58:47
governance, risk, or board effectiveness, Beyond Governance is here to help. Find out more at
00:58:51
beyondgovernance.com or grab the link from the description. >> I really enjoyed the conversation with
00:58:56
Stephanie today. It was incredibly honest, and a number of interesting discussions ensued. The key things for
00:59:04
me were around the importance of speaking out. It's always important to speak truth to
00:59:10
power and to be honest. She also said that if you can't lift someone up, then you should leave them exactly where they
00:59:18
are. I think that that is so important for all people, humanity, to understand. And also, in a world where you can be
00:59:27
anything, you should be kind. I think leadership is definitely in different views on whether it's
00:59:36
important to be empathetic, but Stephanie definitely had a very strong view that they should be. And I think in
00:59:42
this modern age of leadership, it's something that everybody should start to consider.
00:59:50
>> [music]