00:00:00
You know, David, um, our good friend is, uh, a movie star and he's an action star. His name is Bob Odenkirk. Robert Odenkirk. That's one of our favorite guests because we
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we've we've known him forever since the 80s. And then he comes out in Nobody and
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he plays an action star. We know him in the 90s, too. And going forward, I knew him in the 90s. God dang. And so
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he's got uh next week it comes out and Nobody Nobody Too. I saw this Billboard and uh I think he talked about a little bit on here. It was great. You know, we love Bob. Um for him to spin into this
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is crazy. And then to get a sequel, that's how you know it was a success. I saw the first one. I will see the second one.
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Uh lot of fun. And also he's just funny anyway. But he gets to play this which I'm so jealous, you know. I know. Oh, and he we we talk about during this podcast how how how funny he
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knows it is that first he becomes a great TV star, Better Call Saul, and now he's an action movie star later in his career where he had all this uh he he'll go over it in the episode about his his
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career and stuff and we laughed a lot and how he just gets this off the ground because if tomorrow D said I want to do an action movie, no one's just handing
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me a budget to do an action. You know, you have to sort of plus I'm so fragile, but you have to sort of figure out a way
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to get that across. But he does a lot of training. Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you. Anyway, yeah, it's it's just great
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the sound effects. Well, you turn your shoulder and you hear that crunch, you know. He's he does it great. I mean,
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because also he's at heart he's a comedian, you know, and then he's an actor, so it all combines. So, that'll be good. But this
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episode I loved. One of my favorites. So, hope you enjoy it. Oh, wait. I have a great I have a great
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beginning. Ready? Here we go. Robert John Odenkirk was born in Benin, Illinois to Barbara and John. Then you got SNL Wikipedia a little there is to
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it. That's really a big jump. I'll get Well, that's that's all that matters. Little birdie told me at this morning
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at a given point he said everybody knew Bob Odenkirk was the funniest guy in Chicago. Someone told me that today when I was doing my research
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at at some point in time his initials are RS. Oh jeez. You know, Robert Robert thought
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that. Robert thought that, but I don't think anyone else thought that. And uh what did Chicago vote on that?
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It was common knowledge. No, they would have picked someone else. Uh yeah. Uh Larry uh Larry uh oh what's his name? He's a stand up in Chicago. Larry
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Farley. Oh [ __ ] No, he was actually really funny. The cable guy comic who did zies all the time. Oh,
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I should know this. Chicago guy. Chicago guy. And he never never left the Chicago circuit. You know who's really funny is
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a guy named Mike Tumi. Uh, also a Chicago who just stayed there. We had Will Durst. Yeah, we had San Francisco, you know. Yeah. Just they like it. Yeah.
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Some people don't want to branch out. They just they do well there. They make money there and they just stay. That's right. That's right. And it's
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okay. They like the town. They get plenty of work. They get married and have kids and they and they don't go crazy like the rest of
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us. And they're local stars, right? They go on the top radio show. Anyway, Bob, how are you? How are you?
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This is what I would ask you if we were at a restaurant. I'd say, "Bob, how are you?" Yeah.
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Um, just generalize. I'm so good because I'm talking to you guys. God, it's the best answer I've ever got.
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Thank you. I really I really love that you asked me to do this and that I get to hang out
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with you because it's true. It's like I listen to podcasts to listen to my friends talk to hear their voices and uh cuz we don't get to do anything either
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because we're working or co [ __ ] us up for 2 years or you know or you know just
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lives you get separated by having families and and stuff and uh it's just a really
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wonderful thing to get to just hang out with people and I've been listening a lot to the Gilbert Godfrey podcast which
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has been so so entertaining even though I didn't know Gilbert very well. Um but uh a lot of people I do know are
00:04:30
on that, you know, and um he just was Yeah. You know, uh Gilbert, you know, when I worked with the Funny Boys, do you remember them? The comedy team in the old days. Uh Jim Valley and Jonathan Schmott, both
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funny on their own and they wrote together and performed. And so they were the guys that got me
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in the improv. Louiesie got me in the comedy store and I didn't make it. I was 20. And the Funny Boys got me in the
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improv and I did make it. And uh when they and I stayed on Jim Valley's couch and then he goes, "I'm leaving for a week, but someone's going to stay here." And I go in, it's like, "Hello." It was
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Gilbert Godfrieded in his underpants and he just sat eating cocoa puffs and I had
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a roommate for a week and I did. I was like, "Who's this man?" Like I didn't, you know, it's very weird to live with
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someone you don't know. And uh so I don't know him well like you Bob but I did get to spend a week just hearing him
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then I'd see him out and about and he was so you know I just say what everyone else said very very interesting brain and uh
00:05:30
it sounds like interesting guy very funny Gilbert would share some certain sensibilities Bob you know the way he
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deconstruct I mean his his androidized clay bit his bad impre they were just so funny and he was just yeah I mean I certainly appreciated the hell out of Um, you know, he was, uh, I
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only would see him around in New York actually, and you probably did, too, at clubs. You know, when I did SNL, you
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guys probably don't know this, but I would go cuz you probably didn't even know I did some standup once in a while,
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but I would do Sunday Night at the Improv, which is not a it was kind of a sad club, but it for me for me it was
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like I just get a couple laughs and it just was like it made me feel so much better after my
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week of getting the [ __ ] kicked out of me. And just to even get a few laughs on
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that stage meant a lot to me. It like charged me up for the week ahead. And uh and so I would see him and Larry David and and those guys around that club. Um
00:06:34
yeah, it was it was interesting. Well, those are hard earned laughs. I mean, when you're by yourself and you
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walk up and just get a couple laughs is that means a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And uh but it it it gave me
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a little boost that I needed. Um and when standup is giving you a boost, you know you're in a hole.
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I remember going to that improv. I Dana, this is stupid, but and we'll get to Bob in about 40 minutes, but what I did is I
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used to I would come from Arizona and they said I was a standup and my buddies said, uh you know, there's this guy Gary Grant that can book you gigs. So, I'd fly the crummiest airline. I'd stay at
00:07:16
Columbia with my friend. I would take my suitcase with props. Oh, yeah. And I would get my New York coat in quotes, which was my heavy like, you
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know, like winter coat I would never wear in Arizona. Looked like a duster. I looked like young guns. So, then I'd
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walk to the subway, take the subway to 44th, walk the improv, wait until they assign me some comedian. I remember this guy was 36 and he had a Nova. And I go, "If I'm still doing this at age 36,
00:07:43
please kill me." Cuz I was 20. And then we drove to like BF Pakis or somewhere in Jersey. This is how you did it. I'd do a set bomb. I would get maybe 60
00:07:54
bucks, come home, maybe spring for a cab fair cuz it's too late and scary to do the subway and do that for two weeks and
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I' I'd clear 500. Uh, and it was great. But I got to see the improv and I thought the improv I'd always meet at the improv was the point. Um, but I it was so I I always heard about it and I
00:08:13
go in there and the stage is like four inches high. It's like not that big of a deal in New York. Yeah.
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You know what was interesting about that when I first went there was they had that wall of photographs uh when you
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came out of the the showroom into the bar. And in those photographs were stuff from the 60s and 70s. Uh, and there's Andy Kaufman and there's, you know, um,
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probably Jerry Seinfeld's up there, but then there's a guy juggling and there's a singer
00:08:46
and I and I asked, uh, I don't know the I don't think I asked Silver who ran that club at the time, but I asked uh, probably the bartender or somebody, "What's with the singer and what what is
00:08:58
this juggler doing?" And and they said, "Well, that's what the club used to be. That's what all clubs used to be is specialty act, singer. Yeah. Uh or music and then a comic.
00:09:10
That's all of them. And Yeah. And then it became And then the standup comedy boom hit and it was like
00:09:15
everybody get the [ __ ] out of here. It's just standups. It's just then you had like Peter Povski. There
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was like guys that were juggler comedians, magic comedians, and they kept the comedy part and it was probably
00:09:27
easier to get on stage. You know, I think it probably there's some value to it in that, you know, if it's just one
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comic after another, it's like if there's just something between the comics that can kind of clean clear the pallet a little bit with is kind of a I
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don't know. To me, the issue I had and I write about it in my book, which is why we're talking, right?
00:09:54
Comedy, comedy, comedy, drama. I'm halfway through it. Great. Fascinating. I hope you like it, Dana. I just got to the comedy. I have my own lane of this life we've shared together.
00:10:07
And then where we intersected was so cool. I just have great memories of you and we wrote a movie together which you
00:10:13
primarily wrote but called Tucson and uh we had a lot of fun in Tucson. That still is a great really funny script. Oh yeah. Uh thanks Dana. I think so too.
00:10:27
I think it's a great scenario that you cooked up which is that little guy in the west and he's
00:10:32
Irishman. Yeah. Irishman with good with his guns but just sweet as hell and so the opposite
00:10:39
of Clint Eastwood just the very polar opposite of a Clint Eastwood character and uh so um what was I saying? Just that uh you remember the first scene I thought
00:10:50
must have been it's so you oh what well I think I come to town I'm from Ireland. Yeah. And Love it is is got a
00:10:56
hangman's noose around him. And there's posters. He was running for mayor and the posters said, "If I don't clean up
00:11:03
the town, you can hang me." And then love us was the conniving. Oh, hello. And I was well, I put my gun. So anyway, but that was But um
00:11:14
there was a joke in there, Dana, that somebody else did in a movie very in the last few years. It was one of the characters was named like Clint Eastwood and there was some his name was Clint
00:11:26
Eastwood and uh there was so much great stuff in there. Somebody did that joke recently.
00:11:31
You're right. Yeah, that's or John Ham. Sometimes when John Ham is in a show they call him John Ham just as on Larry
00:11:38
David is funny but yeah. [Music] Should we go back to and then make our way to SNL? I just I I'm sort of curious cuz I don't didn't see it, but what was
00:11:52
the stuff that you know got you? I talk a lot about the trauma of SNL. You know, I I I SNL is pretty easy to
00:12:00
write about because it was so hard and and difficult for me personally, but that's true, I think, for a lot of people and the story's been told many times, but I just told my version of it.
00:12:12
Um, but it's such a crucible, right, of pressure and desire and and discovering yourself and and it just leads to a lot of interior trauma and
00:12:26
then that's something to write about. Whereas, you know, when I got to the later parts of the book and I'm writing
00:12:33
about Breaking Bad where, well, I mean, there was a journey there to become a better actor, but also the journey of the show becoming famous, but
00:12:43
the show itself was a welloiled machine with nothing but pros in every direction
00:12:48
and nobody having any emotional issues, just working really hard and supporting each other and pulling together. Yeah. And and so there's not much to say. We, you know, isn't it great? The
00:13:04
writers did a great job and then we all worked really hard and it turned out well and oh, there's nothing to say.
00:13:10
And it's not like if they if someone has a good scene and everyone goes, "That guy's the best one. He's the best one in
00:13:16
that scene." And then the rest of the day you feel like [ __ ] That's you know you're getting it dayto
00:13:21
day. I assume like you when you're doing better calls. So a lot of people are writing a great day. It's going to be
00:13:27
great, right? Uh yeah, there's a Yeah. I mean, especially over time as you the more you do it and you get to know the the values
00:13:34
of the show, what's good about the show and you see it coming across in the writing and and you know what you
00:13:40
captured that day and think, well, that's going to play really well or be fun to watch and and yeah, it's just not
00:13:47
the it's there's not as much to say uh as there is to say about Saturday Night Live where there's so many books and so many and they're all fascinating. I love them all. By the way, one of the reasons
00:13:58
I wrote my book is I love to read showbiz memoirs. I just love them. Yeah. Uh and and usually when somebody gets into something that works and or they're
00:14:10
talking about their hit show, there's not much to say. It's all about the struggle and the failure and the loss
00:14:17
and the that's where there's juicy stories. You know, Dana, when I got there, uh
00:14:22
Dana was Bob was there already when I got there. Seven, I believe, viewers. Yeah, Bob was there and uh Dana was there and
00:14:30
I came in and Bob is always uh I saw Bob more than Dana just because Bob was a writer with me and we were in there all
00:14:36
the time. But Bob's always sort of in a good mood shockingly when I look back because it's hard to be in a good mood
00:14:42
at that place. But always laughing, always took a second for me. Uh so did Conan. Uh uh but you guys at least would explain a little bit of what was going on because I was really a rude just
00:14:54
right. I was a middle act. I didn't know how to write. I didn't know how to use I didn't know how to use a yellow pad. I
00:14:59
didn't know how I had a square wooden desk. And they just Downey goes, "Here's your room. Bye." And I'm like, "I don't
00:15:05
know what's going on. What am I doing?" And uh and so I would Everyone has so much to do on their own plate. You do,
00:15:12
Bob. Dana does. And it's hard to take a second to tell someone, "Hey, because it's someone that not ultimately might take your job. It's just one more person kind of in your way in a weird way. And
00:15:23
you have to put that aside for a second and be a human being." And uh you did that. It was very nice.
00:15:28
And then and now when I ever I see you at a party, if it's a showbiz thing, I don't see Dana out as much unless we
00:15:33
have dinner. But I run into Bob places and then I just beline over to him cuz we always just start laughing within
00:15:39
seconds. And that's fun to have. And we we got through the craziness and we're both sort of sane, I think.
00:15:45
Absolutely, buddy. That's how I feel. I I I never told you this, but that party at Gaio Series where I met McCartney and
00:15:53
got to sit with him for 15 20 minutes. Um, as we as Naomi and I were walking in, my wife and I, I'm dreading going to this party because I'm, you know, 59 or
00:16:06
at the time 54 or whatever and thinking, "Fuck it. I don't I don't want to go out anymore at all ever." And uh, and I'm
00:16:14
I'm thinking it's just going to be intimidating. there's going to be famous people here and I don't know what to say
00:16:19
to them. And I turn to Naomi and I go, "You know what? David Spade will be here." And and buddy, I we walk in the
00:16:28
front door and we look down the hall and there you are. It [ __ ] blew our minds. I love He's a man about town. There was one time I went to Guys. I went to Guys. I didn't even go to I
00:16:40
obviously don't go to the Oscars. I didn't go to Vanity Fair or anything. I just went straight over to Guys cuz Rock was over there. And I get there and
00:16:47
before you get in there's a line for the bathroom. So I just stand in line for a second and then McCartney comes behind
00:16:52
me and then he has a little chitter chatter and then I'm floored and then Bono comes out. So I knew I was like again like you I don't think anyone knows what to say to anyone. So I do a
00:17:04
few jokes that you know sort of strike out and then we all kind of dart our eyes and then I drift away.
00:17:09
Do you have something throughout you know Mr. Shell or anything if someone comes up to you in an airport or something? I assume like most
00:17:15
celebrities specific compliments are the most flattering rather than you're great, you know, because someone came up
00:17:22
to me, I'll just couch it. They came up to me at an airport and they said, "I love skin heads in Maine, the thing I
00:17:28
did with Co Bear on my show." And it's so specific. My friends share that and laugh about it all the time. But you
00:17:33
must have a hundred of those, especially with Mr. Show. There's so many quirky show. I I'll tell you I have uh pretty Yeah. I mean, we've all gotten to
00:17:44
do lots of cool stuff between the three of us. I've just had this the variety in
00:17:50
my career is sometimes strange uh in its intensity, you know, because this movie, nobody that I did this action movie that's like around the world, a whole different
00:18:00
audience that probably they've never heard of Mr. Show. Some of them have seen Breaking Bad and they're just like
00:18:07
a whole another set of people. And uh but but you know the strangest thing is is I always do have to do the math when
00:18:14
somebody comes up to me of like I have no idea what you know me from or what you think I did that was great. And I've
00:18:21
had the biggest surprise is how more than the a few times a year somebody will come up and go you are so great on how I met your mother. I mean,
00:18:32
you're just the best. And it's like, wow. I was on the show six times. Do you have anything like that? David,
00:18:40
do you have anything? Probably. Yeah. I mean, there are little nuggets that I've done that people, you know, I get Emperor's New Groove and that's the
00:18:46
only thing they know me from cuz my voice and then um you get things that are like light sleeper where I played one scene and
00:18:53
someone doesn't really know you at all and they know you're famous or you're something, but that's the only thing in your whole life they saw
00:18:59
and and they appreciate it. So, I'm I'm happy. And it's true. I can sort of guess by who's coming up, I'm guessing
00:19:05
sort of what they know me from. You know what I mean? And you you might be able to get a feel. If they just say you're great, I go,
00:19:12
"Yeah, well, let's now let's dig in." I find that if someone is funny or in one scene of a movie or one part of a show, if they if they catch me and really make me laugh or impress me, I'm
00:19:23
kind of like a fan from then on, even if it's just like a small cameo. Bob, the the interesting part of your story
00:19:30
obviously is like we know where it sort of is it it went and I'm just wondering when you we go back to 87 to 91 and knowing you and your work ethic, you're smart, so funny, all that stuff like how
00:19:43
does that guy what was the emotional I mean who was Bob in that those years that was so
00:19:49
tenacious and so talented that then you went to this and then of course nobody is that they're going to make 10 of
00:19:56
those that was so great for that genre to reinvent that genre. Uh, thanks. Thanks. Listen, first of
00:20:03
all, I got to tell you, when they finally green lit that movie and I went to go make it, obviously I'm thinking
00:20:09
probably we're going to [ __ ] everything up and it'll be a mess. But I also thought if it works, if it works, Yeah. then the thing I'm most excited about is my
00:20:22
friends Yeah. going, "What the fuck?" Yes, I said it. I'm like it what? It's like Bob is doing this now and it's not a oneoff. They all that is too good.
00:20:36
It's like too [ __ ] good. I watch it and I go this better be exactly what I think it's going to be
00:20:42
and it was and it delivered and the fight I think it was on a bus or something. I'm like what the [ __ ] I
00:20:47
couldn't even do I was like I'm a bigger puss out of all of us and I couldn't even do the fake stunts for that cuz I'm
00:20:54
I'm such a puss. be like, "We can't even fake do it with you." Yeah. Because I go, "I don't really need to get beaten
00:20:59
up, but I can't lift my leg up and kick and I my this will hurt my clavicle if I hold this too high." So, I like that it
00:21:06
was you and you you have to be in shape just to do a fight scene, a fake for that, right? To pull punches, to do
00:21:12
anything. I worked really hard because I knew I had a long way to go. And I and I and I and listen, right from the start, I was
00:21:18
like, "Look, if we're going to do this, it's not going to be ironic. I'm not going to wink at the camera. I'm not
00:21:23
going to give myself an out. I'm going to look if I'm going to look like an [ __ ] I'm going to look like huge
00:21:29
midlife crisis loser pathetic like what happened to you guy? I'm going to do this thing all the way or not at all. And then if it works, it's amazing. Yeah. And if it doesn't work, well, who didn't
00:21:42
who didn't think it wouldn't work? I mean, come on. Um but I did. When do you realize it worked? um
00:21:49
at a test screening or at uh just rough dailies or is there a certain point where you go this is actually coming
00:21:55
together co really worked in our favor because we had a cut it was good but it felt kind
00:22:01
of like an indie movie. Mhm. Mh. Uh it was a little slow um and small and then this because of co this um editor who's the second editor on the project
00:22:13
whose name is on it because it should be uh said I got I got nothing to do. Give me your movie. Let me [ __ ] with it. And
00:22:20
two weeks later this guy turned the movie back to us and it was like oh wow. Okay. Wait a second. And the
00:22:28
interesting thing is he added he built the sequence that opens the film out of [ __ ] that was on the cutting room floor. Didn't not shot for the movie, just thrown away.
00:22:39
What a worker. And everything else in the movie, all he did was chop it a little bit, shift some
00:22:46
of the um order a little bit, not much. All he and it was a totally different movie, totally different experience. and just work from be the get-go that
00:23:00
tighten and brighten. It was amazing what this guy did because you connected to the character because it does work in in the whole
00:23:06
emotional arc. You really do feel symp I feel sympathetic for your character. I want him to win. Yeah. Well, that's actually honestly that's one of the things I thought I
00:23:17
could bring to that genre is just a Yeah. vulnerability genuine like that you bought like cuz a lot of times you know you don't really they try to have it but you don't really buy it but you
00:23:31
don't care if you're watching an action movie a lot of times you don't care you're like so what I I like this guy I
00:23:36
like the scenario go hit somebody yeah it's fine go let's see the action and let's have some fun with it but I
00:23:42
thought is there something I could bring to this genre and I thought you know around the world I'm known from better call saw And that's a character who's
00:23:54
getting his ass kicked in a lot of ways and emotionally getting his ass kicked. And um and I play him and there's a sort of a great degree of uh empathy that
00:24:07
people have for that guy and what the story they've Evan Schiff is the editor. Evan Schiff
00:24:13
came on board and and made that thing a beauty. It's important to give credit. I love
00:24:18
it. Yeah. And uh well, if you're if you're bullied a lot, Bob, like I was and Dana was and uh
00:24:24
those movies are [ __ ] I love because it's what I could never do. And when you see like Death Wish with Charles
00:24:30
Bronson, he's at least a guy that's not getting bullied every day cuz he's tough. But when you see a guy
00:24:36
like you, I totally buy. I go, "All right, Bob's a nice guy. He's out there trying to [ __ ] get through the world
00:24:41
like everybody." And people just always [ __ ] They do it to me all the time. And so I know Chris Rock is doing the
00:24:47
sequel, but anyway, um, but I feel like when you when you when you see you in that situation and I'm like, please [ __ ] screw these guys up. It's like the equalizer or
00:24:59
something. Right. Right. Right. And it's the fantasy wish fulfillment that I could deliver on because I could really be
00:25:06
that first iteration of the guy and you really really felt like, yeah, he really is. It's not just, you know, um, I don't
00:25:14
know, Tom Cruz with glasses on or, you know, or a a buttoned up shirt, a shirt buttoned up to the collar. You know, I think you go into a bar or you go into someone and you say you want to see
00:25:27
somebody, they don't want you to, and you don't back down at all on anything, which is I love. You just go, I think
00:25:32
it's best if you and you're like, this is the way I want to talk in all my whole life. I just want to say,
00:25:38
listen, here's what's going to happen. I hit you, you hit the ground. I hit the next guy, he goes down. And the guy's
00:25:44
like, "What are you talking about?" And you're like, "Just you wait about 30 seconds, you'll see how this goes." You
00:25:49
know, I love that [ __ ] I love it. I the So the fun of this this idea, this thing I had, this secret I had inside me when I'm training, which is like my
00:26:00
friends Dana Carvey, David Spade, all these guys. If I get to make this and it comes off, they're they're just not gonna know where to turn. They're going
00:26:11
to have to go to the hospital and get an MRI. Yeah, definitely was a little bit of a
00:26:16
opening an oldfashioned newspaper. Bob Odkerk starring an action film. What the [ __ ] And the picture the poster is like you kind of beat up. I think I'm like that was a great poster. What's going on here? Yeah. Well, uh, it
00:26:29
was a great joy to make that happen and to have that come to life. But anyway, [Music] can I ask you a personal question? Yeah, you Jamie. Yeah, go ahead.
00:26:43
Oh, I I just for a second cuz you're starring in this film and you know film and television have all overlap. Now
00:26:49
it's like the best stuff's on television. You're starring a film. So like when you're like in the 70s,
00:26:54
whatever. What films uh woke you up to to filmhood or show business? Like what was a seminal film for you as a kid? You
00:27:02
know, it could be for Ben Stiller it was um the Poseidon Adventure. For uh for uh
00:27:10
for uh Bill her it was Taxi Driver. Hanks was 2001. I can tell you American Graffiti. Oh yeah. Okay. Ron Howard 1973. Harrison
00:27:21
Ford. Yeah. and and uh you know I'd gone to films you know fun movies at the Cinniplex and they were just building Cinniplexes at the time but we had an oldtime movie theater in our
00:27:35
small town of Neapville Illinois and I'd seen a John Wayne film there on its first run big Rio Lobo Y yeah I thought it was the Cowboys
00:27:48
and I liked it um and and it was great and I loved going to movies uh when I could, but um we didn't go to a lot of
00:27:55
movies, but going to that little old theater where, you know, they showed just the latest thing from the studios for a week or two, right? Um
00:28:06
and seeing American Graffiti, man, that was a totally different vibe than every everything I had seen. I remember it in that theater or anywhere. that was
00:28:20
it was uh new wave for film in America and uh it felt more real. Um it u it had a modern energy to
00:28:32
it and uh it's a very good film. Yeah, George Lucas, it's really good. Yeah. was it's it's so interesting to see a movie that sort of changes the way
00:28:44
you think and maybe it tilted you toward comedy, maybe not, but just that's the beauty of movies when they you see a
00:28:51
bunch that do nothing and you're just sort of killing time and then one just grabs you. Nothing like it. It's it's what you want
00:28:56
to do when you make movies. You go, I want one that people remember. Right. Right. You know something that's the funnest. Yeah. the thing a movie can be that a TV
00:29:03
show pretty much isn't, which is this kind of very core elemental connection that just gets you deeply. It's like a it's a fable and a and and it's and it
00:29:16
really uh takes you on a ride. I think with TV, you're always, no matter how well it's done, you just aren't as close to those lead characters. You're still
00:29:28
just watching the story. You can be totally wrapped in the story, but you're just not. I don't know. I feel like
00:29:35
movies just kind of grab you and take you on that one ride and you feel close to those characters in a personal way. But, you know, I I agree. It might be the fact that
00:29:50
it's singular. You know, Bob, like it's just you go and this is it. Beginning, middle, end, and you go, "Wow." And you
00:29:56
want to see the whole thing again. and TV sometimes you go if someone says, "Did you see the series?" I'm like,
00:30:01
"Oh, what?" And they're like, "It's on episode four." I mean, you know, like season 4, you I I can't 200 hours right
00:30:08
now. Go ahead, Bob. I I I just think the power of film more than ever now is turning off the cell phone
00:30:14
and not being distracted cuz you're watching something with your wife, you're enjoying it, and then ringing
00:30:19
ding ding. I mean, it's just it's it's a problem, you know. So, the focus of a film
00:30:24
Well, yeah. is really strong and and really a powerful experience. Anyway, I still
00:30:31
love TV and I love everything that we all get to do and I I really I like moving around and I don't certainly don't think I have a career, a future as a movie star, but I will get to make a
00:30:45
few more movies, but it's not important to me. It wasn't like the drive of my life. I I was driven by comedy as my
00:30:52
book really really says. I mean, I'm really trying to warn people with that title. I I you know, I know a lot of people know me from Better Call Saul and and
00:31:04
Breaking Bad, but I want to say, oh, right, you know, I'm going to talk about, you know, comedy in Chicago in 198
00:31:12
uh 85 and you're probably not going to give a [ __ ] about that. And Right. You definitely have fans that don't know you from comedy at all. Yeah. At all. At all. That's rare for us
00:31:22
for, you know, for comedians that you have a whole huge new crowd. It's It's Yeah, it's true. And I And I I I want to move around between these things because that's always been the
00:31:34
most fun thing for me. And that's one of the reasons I think I love sketch comedy so much is you're just jumping around
00:31:39
from different ideas, different, you know, different tones. Something's really broad, something's a little
00:31:44
subtler, you know? I like jumping around between all that stuff. So, how did how did you find yourself?
00:31:50
cuz not everyone if people should read the book but you know just quickly that journey from I know Monty Python was a
00:31:56
big big wakeup call for you and then you Chicago Second City but what was it about Monty Python that's not in the book you know what what are your feel even today you feel like that is the one
00:32:08
that you and your brother Bill just went holy [ __ ] yeah uh you know I think um
00:32:15
you know there's a lot of comedy in the 70s that we all watched It had kind of a look, some of it was
00:32:22
great, you know. Um, for sure. I mean, I loved Carol Bernett's show. Uh, the the
00:32:29
vibe with those people was like joining a party that was a very welcoming party.
00:32:34
Friendly and sweet. It wasn't like they were Yeah. Friendly and sweet. And we sure needed that in my house.
00:32:40
So, I loved that. But I think Python was for me the thing that spoke about how I looked at the world. and it kind of put an arm around me and said, "Yeah, the adults are crazy
00:32:53
[ __ ] and uh don't worry, it's you're not the only one thinking this." And uh it's okay. You can laugh at it. That's what you can do. And uh and I think it's
00:33:06
because, you know, they're young guys. They were in their 20s making that show. Um and
00:33:12
they were very smart and they're very silly. like extremely silly but very smart. Yeah. And that's that's the that's the tough combo to get right. Yeah. That's the magic combination to
00:33:25
me. And uh and I I just it just spoke to my the way I needed to see the world to be uh really comforted. You know, I mean,
00:33:37
this is what all the things we do and the things that affect us on a deep level do in in whether it's a movie or a
00:33:43
book or a TV show or some standup act is it makes you feel less alone. You just get that feeling of I'm not the only one who sees this in the world. And
00:33:56
and when you're a kid and you're 10 or 11, at the time I was I think 11 when I first saw Python, that is a crucial you're just about to become an adult.
00:34:06
You're probably really sensing and in my house, I mean, life was extremely unstable at that point cuz there's at that point five kids, two more to
00:34:18
come. Wow. Two more to come. How the [ __ ] does that happen when you know financially it's
00:34:26
off the rails? There's no future. There's no stability anywhere anywhere near you and like how and you just as a kid, you know, no one's including you in
00:34:38
any of that [ __ ] Your parents, your daughter was Alec Baldwin. Oh boy. I wish he was. I wish he was.
00:34:45
Mine wasn't a picnic either. But we we've talked about this, I'm sure, privately, but it was rough. And yours
00:34:50
sounds really intense. Yeah, but I mean look, you know, but it's not that special. Yeah. I mean, I
00:34:56
try to express in the book, look, I know my child is not special. It is a very typical '7s childhood. You know, uh people were just starting to have the word alcoholism in their
00:35:09
vocabulary. Yeah, I mean there was uh you know it was just coming to understand a lot of all of my dad's friends all ended up broke,
00:35:20
bankrupt, divorced all really. And he Yeah. He used to take us out. He said occasionally when he would hang out with us, he would take us to his office and we'd go to lunch with these five guys
00:35:31
and they'd get [ __ ] ripped at lunch and uh and all of them. Car crashes, divorce, like America, the playbook. It was like the playbook.
00:35:43
Hey, you had your car crash. I'm next. I'm next. You know, and uh I remember my dad
00:35:50
quiet getting in his car accident. Uh and his was a good one. He went through the window in
00:35:55
his car accident. Yeah. He went through the window and landed like 15 feet outside the car. Wow.
00:36:01
And I remember him looking in the mirror picking glass out of his head. Like even
00:36:06
like a week later, he's still picking little pieces of glass out of his out of his bald head.
00:36:12
Jeez. God. So you went But come on. That was a 70s That was a dad. I mean, my dad was a drunk. We had We had all kinds of excitement. Yeah. Yeah. But look, the bottom line is it
00:36:24
wasn't special. It was just where I was at when comedy came along and told me, "Yeah, he's nuts. It's crazy. It's okay.
00:36:36
Just laugh at it." and and uh and Steve Martin on SNL was also like a superpower
00:36:43
rocket ship to like crazy town and the best comedy the best mix of you know amp you know conceptualized uh you know like the the fastest trunk
00:36:55
brothers like that's [ __ ] off the rails stuff you know um the wild and crazy guys
00:37:01
two wild and crazy guys um I am but they pull it off and It isn't. Look, there was there was a thing about the '7s humor that was kind of cute and palsy and wasn't didn't make me happy.
00:37:15
The dangerous stuff is what made me happy and uh and that's what came in came around around, you know, this time for me. Yeah. Car, by the way, your American graffiti was
00:37:26
my Life of Brian in Arizona. I saw Life of Brian and I was like, "What the [ __ ] is I didn't know anything of Montipython. I just went to a comedy and
00:37:32
we snuck in cuz it was R-rated wild and it really hit me like what the [ __ ] are these guys? It was nothing like I'd seen and you know I don't want to harp on it but I just wanted to acknowledge that Money
00:37:44
Python stuff did hit me also. I mean I saw Animal House. I saw all the stuff I'm supposed to see and [ __ ] loved.
00:37:50
And then um that was just a little different move and smart silly of course and just doing stuff we didn't do here.
00:37:56
Oh yeah. I had the same reaction. All my friends loved it. And you now now Bob I have to ask Bob if he wrote for Dennis
00:38:02
because I didn't know that. I don't think I knew you wrote for Dennis Miller before SNL. Yeah. Before I got on as a writer,
00:38:09
I would send jokes. Well, I would send scripts to Robert. Mhm. Here's what happened. Okay.
00:38:14
I was doing different crazy [ __ ] in Chicago, standup, sketch shows, anything. And Robert Smeiggel, I'd seen his work at this little theater
00:38:27
that we all went to school at called The Players Workshop. And he wrote a show there that later became a hit show. It
00:38:34
ran for like a year and a half and and made tons of money. And um and so I saw that show in its early iterations and it was already solid. such good writing and
00:38:47
so strong and so like it just works like I had a his hit ratio of like 15%. And and and I didn't care by the way that was fine and uh and Smiggle had a
00:39:02
hit ratio of like 90% and it was like yeah he he was a big slugging percentage. Holy [ __ ] man I don't know where that comes from. You know, Robert says it's
00:39:12
the Rupert Pupkin effect is what he calls his achievement as as a young writer where all these years I've been pretending in my head that I was this
00:39:23
writer and I've been sort of writing stuff in my head like Rupert Pumpkin in his basement. And
00:39:30
then he said, "If you notice on the show in the movie, The King of Comedy, when he actually gets a chance, it actually works pretty good. Yeah.
00:39:40
Yeah. And it's like just from hundreds of hours of, you know, of doing it in front of the,
00:39:47
you know, in front of the wall. Interesting. And uh and and I hadn't done what Robert
00:39:52
did, I think, not even close to the hours he'd put in on really examining writing and sketch work and what a
00:39:59
sketch is and and uh but he had he I saw his work. I loved it. He saw me in this crazy show. It was off the rails silly stuff, but I
00:40:10
was doing characters and I was my I mean, the only thing you could recommend about it was my commitment and my
00:40:16
silliness. I mean, it was super silly. And he got that I was willing to just go that far and and thought it was cool and we started writing a show together and
00:40:27
then he got hired at SNL and so here I am in Chicago and he doesn't know anybody when he gets
00:40:34
to SNL. So, he's calling me up on a Monday and going, "I have these two ideas." Calling me again on Tuesday,
00:40:41
reading the script to me. I'm going, "Do this joke. What about this?" I'm just pitching him jokes. And he had he just has a partner even
00:40:48
though he's, you know, at SNL, new to the job and he's got someone to call and work
00:40:54
his stuff on with and work his stuff with on. And, uh, so I'm sending stuff in. I guess he's sharing it with some other writers. And then I'm sending jokes in for Dennis and
00:41:06
Dennis is doing them. I mean that you know what that means to waiting tables in Chicago to go see a joke on the air. Yeah. My I remember my first joke. I
00:41:18
remember delivering food to the table at Ed Devik in Chicago and I keep checking
00:41:24
the screen because they have SNL on. You can't hear it but it's on the TV. And there's that picture of Bob Hope and
00:41:31
there's my nasty joke. mean-spirited joke. Mean-spirited from this [ __ ] kid. Do you want to tell us what it is? The the the stat the statute of
00:41:43
limitations on respecting Bob Hope for his earlier work ran out today. I love it. And that's the statue of limitations. It's all the language and you know it's like a nicely tightly
00:41:59
written funny short and tight but and people and it's something everyone's thinking
00:42:04
no one says out loud no one says out loud and and and it it it it did great and Dennis does a
00:42:12
couple of my jokes over the next year or two and Smiggle actually there was one scene I wrote that got on it was the uh
00:42:19
sideshow of the stars so you know they had circus of the stars and this was sideshow of the stars
00:42:26
where they have, you know, I don't even remember the jokes, but somebody's got hair all over their body that you didn't
00:42:32
know or something, some, you know, sitcom actor. Uh, and uh, and and Robert, of course, punched it punched that way up. Uh, but, uh, I
00:42:43
only got that was the only sketch that I got on when I hadn't been a writer there yet. And then um I had that meeting with
00:42:51
Lauren that I detail in the book and I kind of exaggerated. But the truth is Dana and David, I went into Lauren's
00:42:59
office and I really did think this guy does not want his ass kissed. He's heard enough
00:43:07
people, you know, praise him. He wants to if he's going to hire somebody, he wants to hear somebody with
00:43:13
a critical mind who a moxy. I I got to hear what you said. I don't sure it's in the book. Well, I mean, I just went like, uh, yeah.
00:43:25
I don't know. I don't know. Well, what do you think of the show? Do you like it?
00:43:30
I don't know. I could fix it. It's been better. It's been better for sure. I mean, I think the early years, you know, and and what Well, what what comedy do you like?
00:43:42
What do you like? Oh, Monty Python. Money Python. Now, that was great. And that was great because it was smart and silly and and
00:43:49
they didn't have to, you know, they they didn't they knew their lines. They weren't, you know, reading Q cards. I'm
00:43:56
[ __ ] ripping the show because Well, thanks for coming in, Bob. I kind of think he he's going to like
00:44:02
this, you know. I mean, talk about not reading a room, man. Holy [ __ ] And uh and the fact that he hired
00:44:14
me is insane. The only thing I had in my favor was he doesn't really uh I want to he doesn't have to examine that kind of hiring that closely. I
00:44:26
mean, if a couple writers want you to hire somebody, you're going to say, "Sure, go ahead. Give them a try. We can
00:44:32
they think they're good." Cuz he doesn't he's not for how can he tell in a meeting. But also he goes, "In fairness, I wasn't listening." The other thing I'd
00:44:38
say, David, is I mean, Lauren loves Python, too. I mean, Lauren also Yeah. Lauren probably would say if you said, "What's the best comedy show of the last hundred years?" He'd go, "Oh, well, it's
00:44:50
not my show. It's Money Python." you know, and and so the fact is he probably kind of Well, the other thing is he also knows what it's like to sit across from a very
00:45:02
nervous young person who doesn't know what to say, is completely wildly intimidated
00:45:09
and he's just done that 10,000 times and probably kind of gave me a little break for that maybe. Sure. He's a he's a he's very funny also and I don't know if that always comes
00:45:20
across so we talk about him because we joke but he's very funny. He's very dry and he and when you can make Lauren
00:45:26
laugh at read through it's so fun when he cracks up sometimes he slaps the table and laughs and you're like oh my
00:45:31
god what a home run. Yeah. I don't I never did that but yeah. Bob. Bob. Bob, we uh Dane, I don't know
00:45:39
if you remember when I was having some troubles on the show, and I think I would just credit Bob with uh the one in
00:45:46
my picture in my head when I'm joking about People magazine or just killing time in the day. And Bob is a great
00:45:51
laugher, by the way, which always helps disarm, you know, make you feel better. And sincere sort of came up with Hollywood
00:45:58
Minute and steered it with me. And uh remember, Bob, we were thinking like David, what did I do to help you with
00:46:05
that? I just said what you do here back in the writer room, you should just do that. You're
00:46:10
Yes. It was something that simple, but it made me and we were framing it and I'm like, could it be a show called Guess What? Like, guess what? You're an
00:46:17
idiot. Uh, you know, and uh and then it turned into like just a series of photos, which when you said that Bob
00:46:23
Hope one, that was kind of like a simple way it's put, you know, do a joke, try to think of something people are thinking. Everyone's kissing ass to celebrities. weird and I I was unknown
00:46:35
which helped you know just innocent looking. That was part of it. That's why it took I didn't want to do it as much
00:46:40
later because I sort of turned into someone people knew and then it's then it turns meaner and it was just kind of
00:46:46
fun to take someone's legs out for no reason like hey this guy is famous [ __ ] you and you know and then and there was
00:46:54
always a reason like I didn't want to go at people more than once because you know you get one freebie if they screw
00:46:59
up and I didn't want it to be that mean. It was just for fun, but uh but it was a big up just the fact that
00:47:06
you encourage or even listen to me in between we're eating Wall-E and Joseph's or whatever. Uh, it was nice and then it
00:47:13
sort of just got me thinking, you know, I I love to hear somebody young, you know, I've helped a
00:47:20
couple young talent uh groups or people to find some way forward. And it it's because I I know what it's like to um tread water and
00:47:33
lose ground and be lost. and and if you can give somebody a little cue that maybe gives them a shortcut or clarifies what they're doing already and it's a great feeling to to to be able to
00:47:45
do that and and uh I guess I've done that even more than I thought but um yeah I like to do it. I mean, part of it is, you know, one of the ways that you can
00:47:58
use your skills when you've been at SNL for a few years as a writer, and by the time you were there, I'd been there for
00:48:04
3 years. And uh I finally was feeling like I'm starting to understand what the show needs, what what cuz instead of what I wanted it to be,
00:48:17
which was insane because it's never going to be Monty Python. could change it to what you are.
00:48:24
Oh my god, there's so much about the reality. What's the reality? How can you help? What's the show?
00:48:30
It took me for years years. But somewhere around my third year, my brain started to calm down and go, wait, it's not this other thing that you want it to
00:48:42
be. It is a thing that is has all kinds of first of all, it's so [ __ ] hard to do. you know, whenever we talk about it and we critique the show and I mean, the [ __ ] thing just on the on
00:48:54
the face of it is impossible thing. It's absurd. And the more I go back, the more I go when I go back and see the show being done, I'm like,
00:49:05
"Oh my god, this is impossible." You know, when I was young, I never thought that. Oh my god. I when I would
00:49:12
got hired there, I was like, "Come on, how come this isn't better? Come on, work, you guys. This is not hard. This
00:49:17
is easy. This shouldn't be hard, you know. And it's like once you've produced a few things, you're like, you want me
00:49:25
to do a show Saturday night with sets and how good all the departments are. Yeah, the departments are so [ __ ] on it. They're so good. They're so practical. Yeah.
00:49:36
Anyway, did you ever think during a long dress show sometimes I thought maybe tonight's
00:49:42
the night it won't the show won't go on. They'll show a rerun or something. Sometimes it just seemed like
00:49:47
I never I never thought that. I mean I I think it more now but again when I was there Dana when I started there I had such I don't know you know you guys know
00:49:58
the people who start in this business there's such a strange mix of confidence ego selfhatred. It's the weirdest like how does it work? How does it work that
00:50:15
you have a friend, you know, we all have a friend, literally walks around all day
00:50:21
hating themselves, talking about how stupid and dumb they are, and then gets on stage and tells a b a crowd of
00:50:28
strangers what they think like house. Well, how does that work? Something's wrong here. Because if you don't think you're worth anything, then then you
00:50:41
shouldn't be thinking, I give me that mic. I need to tell everyone what I Give me that mic. I just always felt
00:50:48
I need to lecture these people, [Music] Bob. I always felt if I didn't kill, I'd be I'd get fired. I I felt like I had to destroy and maybe I pushed a little too
00:51:01
much at times until I got to Johnny Carson was the only sketch I did toward the end where I wasn't pushing. But I I
00:51:07
just wanted to make the point that um Are you still with us? Your screen's frozen. Oh, okay. God, you were just
00:51:13
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that it seemed like you were like if you told me you had a a pretty good time
00:51:18
on SNL, wouldn't surprise you because it seems like you were sort of around a lot like you'd be in a room with Conan or
00:51:23
Robert or here's an example I wanted the audience to hear. Franken and I are doing a George Bush Senior. We're
00:51:29
sitting around somewhere going, "Hey, I'm doing the thing. Gotta do it. Gotta go." And then and then it was uh we're
00:51:36
trying to go I think Al said in the less uh the lesson of Vietnam and you would just easedropped or just walked by and you just went stay out of Vietnam and
00:51:47
that killed on the show on Saturday. Lesson of Vietnam, stay out of Vietnam. Do you remember that moment, Bob? But I think you were around the show a lot. Grumpy Old Man was really your you
00:51:59
originated that. I don't know. It seemed like you were around, you know. I I I listen if I try to think
00:52:06
of the things I contributed to SNL and basically I say in my book that I didn't help at all and I got paid and I learned so much about how to write a sketch and
00:52:18
what a sketch is made of and I but and then I gave nothing back nothing in return. Like Lauren totally got the [ __ ] end of the stick with me.
00:52:31
Um um but uh probably those things maybe added up to something. The little things that I was able to do because Robert included me in
00:52:42
in writing or you know anybody did. I mean I can think of some of them because they stick out because they were um it would meant a lot to me when I was able to help and and say something that
00:52:55
helped. I I I wanted it to work. That's the other thing. Sometimes I think I when I talk about the show it sounds
00:53:01
like I hated the show or thought it was dumb and and [ __ ] this place and it's not true. It's not true. I I wanted nothing more than to be helpful
00:53:13
and meaningful there and uh it it would have meant so much to me to feel that way. But I I I just did my best. And uh And
00:53:25
but you brought in like motivational speaker, which is one of the greats. I mean that that's just that alone you
00:53:31
could have [ __ ] off. I know, David. That was after I left. That [ __ ] scene was on. Is that true?
00:53:36
That was the next Yeah, that that they did that scene the year after I left. Now, they gave me credit for it, of
00:53:42
course, cuz I wrote it. I I wrote it alone in my apartment in Chicago. But but that
00:53:49
wasn't even I had left down by the river did that just that wow what fan down by the river as poet I mean just the fact that it's one of the most I mean listen I I just was in
00:54:01
the scene and I hear about it every day so uh but I had nothing to do with it I just was cast thank god Lord Jesus
00:54:07
well you guys know that as proud as I am that I wrote it and I'm supremely proud
00:54:13
it's a standout moment in my life's life is you Chris Chris Farley is the reason freight train is he's just come on. I mean that guy I mean I talk about him a lot in the
00:54:25
book and and it's weird and it's fun to talk to you guys right now because I mentioned to Howard Stern on his uh
00:54:32
podcast that uh you know it's strange to to write about somebody who I I mean David you were very close to him. I was not. I mean, I
00:54:45
I was I felt very close to him, but so did anyone who saw him perform or even hung met him. Such a sweet Yeah. He was so nice and look in the eye and just like shake your hand and be
00:54:58
happy and they felt like, oh, that's why he was so lovable. They're like, oh, this guy's my friend immediately. Yeah. Howard said, you know, I didn't
00:55:04
really know him. And I said, but you did. You did cuz you saw him perform. You saw him as a
00:55:10
That's basically what it was. Yeah. And uh and so I I I was I felt a little strange about writing as much as I did, but it was pure honesty and he affected
00:55:21
me and uh impacted me greatly as he did everyone who who got to know him. So, um, so you know, I mean, it's fun to talk about how I I got to write that
00:55:34
sketch and that it played so well on the show, but it's all Chris, you know, the show is always the show is always
00:55:41
performance. One of the things that probably bothered me uh was that SNL is always going to
00:55:48
reward and and celebrate a performance laugh over a construction story laugh. And as a writer, I'm wanting those two to at least be equal,
00:56:02
right? Or if not lean in my direction where you go, yeah, that performer who does says band,
00:56:09
he's all right. But the [ __ ] idea, the con that's so well constructed and that probably was Jack Handy, right?
00:56:17
Jack Handy. Yeah, a Jack Handy sketch is a Jack Handy sketch. It is funny because Jack
00:56:24
Handy is [ __ ] genius and and it does that. You could put seven other actors in there if they're okay. Yeah. You're going to laugh. Frozen caveman lawyer. I mean, Phil was great, but the concept was just so Jack
00:56:37
handy and Phil nailing it, but just he's nailing a great piece of writing sketch
00:56:42
that was written so well and handy sketches, you know, like a fingerprint within a half a page of read through.
00:56:49
You're like looking around going, "Is this Jack Andy?" like it's immediately comes out of this of the gate.
00:56:54
I would love to talk to you guys for five more hours. Uh I love you, Bob. Thank you for coming, man. Bob, it's been such a pleasure.
00:57:01
You're right. We could go for five more hours. Hey guys, if you're loving this podcast, which you are, be sure to click follow on your favorite podcast app, give us a
00:57:13
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00:57:25
an executive produced by Danny Carvey and David Spade, Heather Santoro and Greg Holtzman, Mattie Sprung Kaiser, and
00:57:32
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00:57:39
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00:58:01
at fly onthealla.com. That's audacy.com. [Music]