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What is good, my ex-homies? It's your boy, Jacob Gooden. We're back for another week
in the Ex-Homeschoolers Club.
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And, uh, this week is gonna be a little
bit different, because we're actually not talking to a homeschool alumni.
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We're gonna talk to someone
about high-control religion, exiting high-control religion.
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And, you know, the reason I thought
that this topic was important is because, you know, homeschooling and
religion go very hand-in-hand, and
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it's, it's kind of hard to separate. I know for myself, it, it was
a huge part of my homeschooling
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experience, and so it's very hard
sometimes to separate those two. And so, you know, if you weren't raised
religious, if religion wasn't part of
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your homeschool experience or isn't part
of your homeschool experience, if this isn't the episode for you, all good.
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But if you wanna hear about some of
those experiences, I think it's gonna be definitely worthwhile conversation.
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So, that, I'm gonna shut up, and, uh…
Well, I'm not gonna totally shut up, but, but I'm gonna bring my guest in here.
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Audra Phelps is with us today,
and she's a coach that helps people kind of exit high-control
religions, has an, has a background,
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uh, involved in the LDS church. And so, yeah. So, with that, Audra, welcome
to the Ex-Homeschoolers Club.
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I'm, I'm so proud to g- and happy
to give you, like, an honorary pass for the day, uh, to be in here.
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Thanks, Jacob. I'm really happy to be here. It'll be a fun conversation Yeah. So let's kick things off, I guess,
a little bit with your background.
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You and I chatted before, and one of
the things you mentioned to me was that you come from an education background.
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And so w- w- you were a school
teacher, is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, so, um, I've been
in education for 15 years.
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I started out as a public school teacher
in Idaho teaching high school biology. And so I taught there, and then
it was a really stressful teaching
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in public school especially. It was a Title I school with a
budget deficit of about $14 million.
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So … And my husband is also a teacher. He was an elementary school teacher, and
we decided, uh, we came across the world
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of international teaching, specifically
American private schools, and so we actually moved overseas, um, about
13 years ago to work internationally
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in American private schools. And we've been doing that now
for 13 years, and we did it
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when our children were young. When we first came overseas, our
children were ages 7, 9 and 11.
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So we moved into the teaching world,
and then, um, after teaching… or international teaching world, and
so after teaching for several years
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internationally, I decided to move
into administration, which is where I've been for the last five years.
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And currently, I'm living in a very
little country called Timor-Leste, which is in Southeast Asia, and I'm, um, the
director of an international school here.
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I guess I gotta ask you the obvious
question of, like, what are your thoughts around homeschooling as
someone who comes from you know, a
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private and a public school background? You know, are you for homeschooling? What, what are your opinions on it?
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What do you think of homeschoolers? When I, when I say that, like, what,
I guess what comes to bra- your
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brain, and then also, like, what is
your opinion on, on homeschooling? Yeah, you know, let me preface this, that
I definitely don't believe in, like, a
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one-size-fits-all approach to education,
and I think homeschool can have its place for the right child if done right.
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But in my experience, which is a sample
size of one, but in my experience, I have not seen it done well.
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And the biggest problem that I see, which
I, I feel like is not talked about a lot, but I, but I think it's my unique
perspective coming from education,
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is, um, I see a real disrespect that
it gives to the teaching profession. So I went to school to be a teacher.
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I took classes in child psychology,
and learning needs, and teaching methods, and how the brain learns, and
modalities for different disciplines,
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curriculum design, lesson plan structure. Many teachers also have master's
degrees, you know, where they do
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research on best practices and
strategies to improve learning outcomes. And then on top of that, for our state
credentials, we have to keep, um,
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you know, professional training going
every year and staying up to date on new methods, and inquiry-based models,
and critical thinking skills, and
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collaboration, and so many other topics. Yet even with all of that education
that, and training that teachers
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have, too often in the US, teachers
are seen as glorified babysitters, Yeah and then they're the first one to
blame when something goes wrong.
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And so when I see a parent without any
training as a teacher choose homeschooling
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for whatever reason it may be, I see
it as a real insult to the teachers who have poured their life into the
art and science of teaching, because
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teaching is not just giving your child a
textbook and working through it together.
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There's an art and a science to teaching. Um, and so that's kind of my biggest
beef, I would say, with homeschool, is
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the parents that go into it but they
have no training in being a teacher, and they don't u- understand or really
have a respect for the training and
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education that has gone into teachers,
you know, um, becoming experts in their field and in how kids learn.
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And in my job, what I've seen is that
when students have been homeschooled, oftentimes there's a point where the
parent realizes, like, "Okay, this is
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now beyond my skill level or beyond my
expertise," and so some kids will come back into the public school system.
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Um, or maybe it's for social reasons. Sometimes parents, you know,
wanna get their kids in so
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that they're more socialized. And these kids usually come
in really excellent readers.
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Like, they could probably read Anna
Karenina in fourth grade, right? Like, amazing readers, but they lack
critical thinking skills, and they
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really struggle in math and science. And that's just the academic part. That doesn't take into, into
account the social awkwardness
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that I would often see as well. And, you know, the other thing that
I see, and this, this is just kind of
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across the board with parents in general,
whether it's homeschool parents or, you
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know, parents of, of the students in the
schools where I have worked, is that they
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were, they were taught with a certain
methodology or pedagogical approach that they, uh, you know, when they were
students in school from ages five to 18.
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And so then they think that
they're experts in education simply because they were educated.
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And so they'll kind of come in, like, thi-
"Well, yeah. Well, this is how my teacher
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taught me math, so this is the way to do
it." And, and this is especially evident
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when parents decide to homeschool their
kids, especially if the parents don't even have more than a high school diploma.
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Like, they just don't know that
education has moved on from the time that they were kids, right?
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Right. Well, and I think to, to kind of back
you up in some of these ways too, I
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Yeah also, on the flip side of that,
is also the parents who had terrible school experiences, right?
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And so they don't wanna…
They don't-- They feel like Mm. The school system is gonna teach
their kids the same way they learned,
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which was frustrating for them
or didn't work for them, right? And so they feel left behind, and
so they're like, "I can do it better
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because I know that, you know,
this didn't work for me. I, I'll figure it out," kind of a thing.
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so, you know, I think to your
point, like it can be done well. Um, I believe that there definitely
are some safeguards that we need to
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put around it, and I'm a huge advocate
for places like CRHE, um, and things like that, that are actually trying to
develop some of the, the things that
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we can put around it to, to, um, to
create better homeschool experiences for Yeah
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and provide them with those resources. 'Cause I know, like my parents
were not science people.
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Like, my science is, is a weak Yeah me. Um, I'm thankful that they did bring some
people into my life to help me with that.
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I'm fortunate. But it, you know, could've
easily gone south, uh, very quickly, um, kind of a thing.
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And so, yeah, so I totally agree
with you on, on seeing that. And also, like you said, it's a little
bit of a slap in the face to the
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public educators and to teachers in Yeah who have spent all this time training. And so something that I have, uh, uh,
family members and cousins and like
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that in my life who are, are teachers,
and one of the things they tell me all the time is like, "We wanna work
with parents, not against parents."
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And so, you know, it's more about being
involved in a kid's education and, you know, where are they struggling and how
can we fix those things, and how can
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we provide support at home and in the
classroom, and all those different things.
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And so it's like we need to come
together and work together, right? There's a place for all of
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Yes to operate at like 110%. It just takes everybody kind of
actually having the willingness
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to come together and work on it. Yeah, absolutely. And like, you know, even though I, I
have maybe not the most positive view of
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homeschooling, I do also recognize the
drawbacks to especially public education.
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You know, it's, it's underfunded. There's too many kids in the class. Oftentimes, individual needs are not
met, and then for students with any
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kind of neurodiversity, if they're,
if the school is not, like, targeting learning strategies, like if they don't
have a learning specialist on campus who
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is sp- you know, working individually
with students using specific learning strategies and then gathering data on how
those strategies are working to support
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that child, then those students often
get lost in the shuffle, and I completely recognize that, and I've seen this.
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And keep in mind that the school is also
not 100% of the reason why a student might be struggling, so to your point,
it really is, like, it's teamwork.
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The parents and the school
have to come together to work for the benefit of the child.
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It's not an us versus them, which
it turns into a lot of times I'm curious, you know, you, you talked
a, a little bit about, you know,
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shifting from schools here in the
US to doing the world school stuff. Now, to me, like the closest I guess
I relate to that is I, I have an uncle
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who was a missionary, and they, him and Okay moved overseas, uh, to, uh,
to, to be school teachers for,
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uh, a missionary organization. And so you talk about moving overseas,
it- was it from a missionary perspective,
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or is it something completely different? No, not from a missionary
perspective at all.
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Um, that's a good question though, 'cause
we get that question a lot when, you know,
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when people find out we've lived overseas. "Oh, are you missi-," we get,
"Are you missionaries?" And we
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get, "Are you teaching English?"
And we're like, "Nope, neither." Okay. We're in, like, actual schools.
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I was a high school biology teacher. My husband was a fourth grade teacher. Like, it's, uh, pick up a school
in the US and take it overseas.
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That's the structure
that we were teaching in. But, um, we chose to move overseas
because we really wanted to
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broaden our children's worldview. My husband and I both really like
traveling, but we were teachers,
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so there's no way we could
afford to do it with three kids. And so we wanted our kids to learn
from other cultures and see the, the
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commonalities across all of humanity. We wanted them to learn that there's more
that connects us than divides us, and,
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and we really believe that when you get
to know people who are different from you,
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the fear of what is different disappears. And so we wanted our
kids to experience that.
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We wanted them to be able to openly
share perspectives and opinions, even if they disagree with someone, and see what
respectful discourse could look like.
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Um, and so in my opinion, just to kind
of tie that into homeschooling too, is that a lot of times what I have seen is
homeschooling does the opposite of that.
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Homeschooling, e- especially for
religious reasons, I see that the parents are so afraid of differing
opinions or of their children choosing
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a different worldview from their
parents' beliefs, that they shield their kids from anything that's different.
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Like, if they don't, if, um,
don't, don't expose them to it, then they won't choose that.
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So it keeps their world small. But us going overseas was
actually the exact opposite goal.
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We were trying to get our kids to be
exposed to as many different opinions and cultures as, as, as we could
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you nailed it right on the head
to some degree of, like, there is this isolation that happens
inside of the homeschool world.
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I was a part of a big homeschool
group, so, like, you know, we talk about the socialization
aspect and some of that stuff.
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Like, I, I didn't really hurt for friends. I didn't really hurt for… Like,
I knew how to talk to people by
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the time I got to college, and
launching, and things like that. I wasn't really wrestling with
that, which I'm thankful for.
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I, I was a weird kid, don't
get me wrong, and I still am a little bit of a weird person.
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But like, it, but, um, but from
the perspective of there was a lot of things that, like, within the
homeschool community, it was just,
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like, this agreement almost, it
felt like, especially among us kids, of like, "Well, we all believe the
same thing," or, "We all, you know,
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Yeah go to church together," or, "We
all do these things together." And so there was kind of this, like,
understanding of like, you know,
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well, at the end of the day, we
all worship the same God, you know? And we all kinda believe the same
thing, and we believe, you know, we're,
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we're all conservative, you know, and,
like, all these different ideologies that were getting placed on us.
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And so to your point, like, we
weren't getting that exposure of outside perspectives, of outside
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Yeah of outside any of that stuff. And so it's weird because it's
like this… I don't, I don't say
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that I was, like, unsocialized. However, I was isolated in a lot of
circumstances, so my socialization
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was inside of this bubble around
Christianity, and similar values, and all those kinds of things.
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Which, you know, good or bad, little
bit of a mix in there, uh, for sure. But like,
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um, when you did kind of venture
outside of your bubble when you got a little bit older, was it shocking
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so when I got to college, I still … I
went to a Christian college, and so remained inside of a bubble of
sorts, but all of a sudden I was
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dealing with different denominations
of people, which that's a whole rabbit hole we could go down, right?
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I'm sure in the Oh gosh. church it's another thing as well
of, like, you know, uh, I was
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non-denominational, but I'd also
grown up Southern Baptist, and there, there's Calvary Chapel, and I went to
a Free Methodist school, but there's
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also United Methodist, and there's
all these different aspects, right, of, of how we translate and, and
religious texts and things like that.
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So that was step one of stepping
outside of my comfort zone, but still in the context of religion.
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then it wasn't until I was probably
21, 22, where I was, like, really out in the world and getting my first job
and being out around people, where
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I was like, I worked with people who
We were just vastly different people, and we believed different things.
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we kind of The job we had, we worked
on Sundays together, and so we would go, when we would get off work, we
would go usually for a meal or we'd
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go get a beer after work or something
like that, and we would just hang out. And so we got to know each other,
and we got to the point, once you
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get past, you know, the traditional
stuff of, "Oh, you have a cat, you have a dog," like, "This is what your
hobbies are," kind of a thing, we got
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down to more of our belief systems. And we realized that a lot of us
believed in very similar things.
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Everyone was deserving of love, and, you
know, we wanted, uh, good d- good in the
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world and, and stuff like that, but we
come from it from different perspectives.
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I was a Christian. Someone else was Muslim. Uh, someone was an atheist. Like, we had all these differing
perspectives, and, and that was, I think,
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the kind of a wake-up call in a lot of
ways, where I went, "Oh, people aren't a threat to me," and so we can kinda, like,
walk through it a little bit together.
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Um, so I, yeah, so I mean,
that kinda leads into, like, your religious background.
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I'm curious, like, Yeah were you a part of LDS? How did you get into it? Like, and then we'll get into maybe
why you left and things like that,
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Yeah, sure. Um, I was raised in, so m- it,
you know, it's, um, culturally called Mormonism, right?
00:16:59
So the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints, or LDS. I know now they're kind of moving
away from the word Mormon, but
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most people know them as Mormons. So I was raised in it, born and raised in
it, um, in a very strict Mormon household.
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My father actually worked for the church,
so, um, we definitely were rule followers.
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We followed every rule to a T. Yeah. And, um, you know, let me just preface
the story of, you know, me, my journey
00:17:30
of exiting the LDS Church is not meant
to convince other people to leave. Like, I see value in
it for a lot of people.
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I see those who are fully committed,
and I respect everyone's choices to believe what they choose to believe.
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I try not to be too negative about
the things in the church that I didn't agree with or that I saw as problems.
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I c- give grace for that. So this story is just more about
how I came to find myself and learn
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to listen to my own intuition, and
then stopped letting a church be the one who had authority over my life,
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So that yeah. It's kind of Yeah it's building your own
belief system without the
00:18:11
Yes throughout the fil- w- without the
filter of somebody else in a lot of ways.
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So Yes, exactly. Exactly. But it works for other people,
and so I just, I wanna, you
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know, be respectful of that. Um, the LDs- the LDS church is, it's
definitely a high-demand religion, right?
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It, it controls really
every aspect of your life. It tells you what to eat and what to
drink, and what to do on Monday night,
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and what to do on Sundays, and what age to
date, and it's very, um, obedience-driven.
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So you know, obedience is the law of,
first law of heaven, I think was a quote I used to be told all the time.
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Um, and you know, submit your will
to the Lord's will, and doubt your doubts, just have enough faith.
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Like, these are all the kinds
of things that I was taught. Um, and even as a kid, like looking
back, looking back, I felt like
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I was kind of always running. Like, it never really felt like a place
where I belonged, and um, there was a
00:19:23
lot of feelings of not being good enough. I think there was a, b- there was, because
of this obedience piece and follow the
00:19:30
rules, any time you did something super
small, it just felt like, "Oh, I'm not worthy now. I'm not good enough."
00:19:36
And so it was this constant striving for
perfection, because um, also in, in the
00:19:43
church there, you know, there's a lot of
talk, I think in, in many churches, but
00:19:46
there's a lot of talk about the afterlife
and, you know, your eternal salvation.
00:19:50
And it was like, this life is a
test, so it's gonna be really hard. Just expect this life
is gonna be hard, right?
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And then if you, if you pass the
test, then you, you know, you'll be rewarded in the afterlife essentially.
00:20:06
I mean, that is a lot of pressure,
and I felt the pressure all the time. I felt the pressure all the time.
00:20:13
Um, so ma- many things, like
there was that part of it, like, "Wow, I'm never good enough.
00:20:19
I'm never gonna be worthy. I'm constantly striving to be who
they tell me I'm should be." Like,
00:20:24
my identity was handed to me, I never really felt like, that was
my identity, but I followed it anyway
00:20:31
because I didn't know any better. let me ask you this, because, like, Yeah growing up, my, I've, my understanding
of, of the Bible in general was very much
00:20:39
based on this idea that we come to the
world already flawed, and we are We're not, without the, without the saving
of Jesus Christ, we are, like, not,
00:20:54
we, we can't get into heaven, right? And so we, we are flawed, we
are evil in a lot of senses.
00:20:59
Uh, there's a lot of Bible verses
about, like, the flesh is evil. And, and, and so there's this
kind of training in your brain
00:21:04
of, like, that small voice that's
in the back of your head, right? W- a lot of people, it's,
like, your conscience, right?
00:21:11
It's, it's that thing that drives you. Like, we, we learn to
ignore that because that
00:21:15
Yep it's not good. It's evil. And so that is, that is your flesh telling
you what is, what is right and what is
00:21:22
wrong, which is not the way that should,
things should be, um, according, uh, according to the Bible I grew up with.
00:21:29
Um, and so, so there's this l- a lot,
like you were saying, there's a lot of that pressure to, like, you know, follow
the rules, and this is what a good
00:21:37
Christian looks like, and they're, you
know, and you have to accept these things.
00:21:41
And it wasn't until I got probably
high school age where I started reading the Bible really on my own and started
developing this idea that I was like, "You
00:21:50
know, like, this is, this seems way too
complicated for, like, what the Bible is
00:21:55
actually saying. It seems like all these
rules are being put on me by teachers rather than, like, the Bible itself."
00:22:02
And so I, I'm just curious if that's,
like, a similar, I guess, feeling that you were having as, as a kid,
where you're like, "I'm learning to
00:22:09
just, like, deny myself in order to
follow these rules in a lot of ways." Yes, absolutely.
00:22:16
And growing up, I didn't
know that's what it was. But yeah, I mean, we were, we were
told the same thing, like, you
00:22:22
know, um, the natural man is an
enemy to God and, you know, the, the carnal man has these evil desires.
00:22:30
Like, so exactly. So then your, your own, your own
feelings, your own intuition, like,
00:22:37
you learn to distrust yourself,
and you, you learn to constantly be looking for approval for every choice
in your life from an outside source.
00:22:48
And I would dare to say that it wasn't,
the outside source wasn't really God. It was really a spokesperson in the
church who was talk- speaking for God.
00:23:01
Right. Well, I think, I think we see that in
a lot of the evangelical spaces too, of
00:23:05
like you have these very ca- charismatic
leaders, whether it's your pastor, whether, you know, whatever it is, right?
00:23:11
Um, Yeah kind of become these,
these mouthpieces for God Yes. And so Yes of the Bible becomes almost as good as the
00:23:23
bible itself in a lot of ways. And so, and then you start to end up in,
in areas where like IBLP and, and then
00:23:30
some of these much more high control
situations where it's like all of a sudden we're starting d- to deviate
from maybe what the Bible actually
00:23:37
says, but people have bought in. And that's where you kind of, you
have this really gray area where
00:23:41
it's almost like cult-like behavior. Like it could … Is it falling too
far into a cult, or is it like, are
00:23:47
we still on the Bible side of things? Like, where are we sitting with things? And so as soon
00:23:52
Yeah so much faith into a human being that is Yep. the shots and saying, "Oh, well,
they're the, the mouthpiece of
00:23:58
God," well, this tends to get a
little tricky in that circumstance. Yeah, and then, you know, like Mormonism
adds another layer to that because
00:24:07
Mormonism, um, was founded by Joseph
Smith, who called himself a prophet, and they s- they still have a, what, someone
who they call a living prophet today.
00:24:20
So they f- they're following a man
who's the spokesperson for God, so it's like this middleman between your
relationship of between you and God.
00:24:28
You know, for those who are
believers in God, you know, there's, there's a, a middleman there.
00:24:33
And then, and then the other layer to
that is there's a whole other book of scripture that the Mormons have, right?
00:24:41
They have the Book of Mormon, which
is supposed to be complementary to the Bible, but then what a lot of people
who maybe don't know a lot about
00:24:49
Mormonism is then there's another book. There's anoth- nother book called
The Doctrine and Covenants, which
00:24:56
is the modern-day revelations
from the current prophets. And so, and it's, it's
considered scripture.
00:25:07
And, and so, you know, y- it
really, really gets confusing of, you know, so am I following Christ?
00:25:15
Uh, you know, am I having this
personal relationship with God, or am I following this man who's also
writing scripture at the same time, you
00:25:24
know? So it's, it's really… There's so
many other outside authorities that there's really not even a choice to
follow your own, your own inner knower.
00:25:35
You know, even, even as kids, the church
is really good with, um, uh, I guess indoctrination, for lack of a better word.
00:25:45
You know, as kids, every Sunday we were
singing all these songs, and one of the songs that we would sing e- almost
every Sunday was Follow the Prophet.
00:25:52
You know, it wasn't, it wasn't necess- I
mean, we were singing songs about Christ,
00:25:57
too, but there was a lot of songs about
the prophet, about this man that we were
00:26:02
f- that we were regarding similar to God. Yeah, it's interesting because
I was telling, I was trying to
00:26:08
explain to somebody who really
didn't grow up inside a religion. I was, you know, they were like, "What's
really the difference between like,
00:26:15
you know, the Jews and Judaism, and
then like Evangelical Christianity, and then like Mormonism?" And I was
like, "Well, okay, so if you…"
00:26:23
So this is, again, this is my
interpretation of these things. Uh, but like, you know, I was like
the, you know, in Judaism they very
00:26:32
much follow the Old Testament, and
they don't really believe in, uh, a lot of Jews don't believe in, in
Christ coming back and being the
00:26:38
son of God, and things like that. So I was like, "They're, that's where
they're at." And then I was like, "And
00:26:42
then the Christians, we all believe in
Jesus Christ, and that Jesus came, and he
00:26:45
saved us, and, and, you know, he forgave
our sins," and that kind of a thing. And so we would argue that like, you
know, the Jews have it wrong because,
00:26:52
well, they, you know, they just don't
have the full picture yet, right? And, Yeah.
00:26:56
but, and the Jews, b- but then the
Jews sometimes kind of believe we're like, maybe they're following a
false prophet, or, you know, it's not
00:27:02
really, he's not really the son of God. You know, he's a good
teacher, that kind of a thing.
00:27:06
And then I was like, and then the
Mormons have another prophet that comes after Jesus that they follow.
00:27:11
Yeah And so for me, when I was a kid, I
remember as a Christian, I remember being
00:27:15
like, you know, that's like a false god. That's like a false… You
know, I was like whether it's
00:27:20
the Antichrist, whether… You
know, I was like, it's not real. It's something fake, um, kind of a thing.
00:27:26
And so it was always interesting when
I would have conversations with Mormons 'cause they were like, "No, no, no.
00:27:29
We believe the same thing, but we also
just have this additional knowledge." And
00:27:32
I was like, and I, as I've gotten older,
I've realized, I'm like, I was kind of the same way to like people inside of
Judaism. I was like, "Yeah, you guys
00:27:39
Ah. Ah piece." And I was like, the
Mormons are like the same. They're like, "You guys get it, but you're
missing this additional piece." Um, and
00:27:48
I never thought of it that way, but
yeah, that's a really good parallel. Yeah So as I, I explain it to people now, I'm
like, you know, that's kind of, to me,
00:27:56
the three tiers of, like, all of us kinda
worship the same God, the same idea, and
00:28:02
from a similar book or series of books. But, like, we just then end up having
our own takes on those types of things.
00:28:09
And then inside of that, ob-
obviously, we have all of the different denominations and the teachings and
those kind of things, um, as well.
00:28:15
So does that seem pretty
accurate to what I Yeah. That sounds really accurate. Really accurate.
00:28:23
Yeah. Well done. Yeah. Done a lot of study on little bit too much time thinking this.
00:28:28
Is I actually just got my first Book
of Mormon, because I've been interested in trying to understand Mormonism,
and so, um, so I just picked up my
00:28:37
first … I haven't really touched it yet. It's still on the shelf, but I'm
like, I- at least it's now in the
00:28:41
collection, um, and I can reference
it to try to understand, I think, a little bit better at some point.
00:28:47
But, um, I guess let's talk about
coming out of that, and, like, you know, my, my story about
leaving Christianity, uh, you know,
00:28:56
deconstruction is, I think, something
that takes a very long time, and it's, Yeah
00:29:01
it, it, it starts with a small
question that maybe, you know, leads to like, "Well, I don't believe that
part of it, but I'm still a part of
00:29:08
Yeah a part of this religion." And
then it leads to another question, and those types of things.
00:29:11
So for me, for a long time, I always
said it started with Noah's Ark, and that I belie- I, I chose to believe that
the story of Noah's Ark wasn't actually
00:29:20
a worldwide flood, it was more of a Okay thing. And then eventually I got to a point where
I was like, "I think it's just a parable,
00:29:26
and I think it's just a lesson that's
teaching us about the love of God," And so
00:29:30
it starts with something small like that. Um, eventually, you know, those questions
kind of domino over time, and, and you
00:29:38
get to a point where I am today, which
is more agnostic, and being like, "Well, there could be something, and I'm open
to there being something, but I'm just
00:29:46
not sure yet." And so for you, how
does that look of you kind of starting to exit a high-controlled religion?
00:29:55
It was a really long process. You know, I mean, like I said, hindsight
when I look back when I was a kid, there
00:30:01
was a lot of things I didn't agree with,
but I, I just thought, "Okay, well, I'm
00:30:06
just not worthy enough to understand
how God works, so I just need to be more faithful and more righteous so that I
can understand this in the afterlife."
00:30:13
You know, like, that kind of
conditioning was really, was put in me from the moment I could c- you
know, I had a cognitive ability.
00:30:22
And, um, you know, back when we
were talking about, you know, this, the doctrine and covenants and how
there's a, there's a current prophet
00:30:31
that's coming out with new doctrine
and new policies all the time. And I remember, like, as a teenager
in Sunday school, you know, learning
00:30:42
about polygamy and how the church
used to practice polygamy, and then, and then they banned it.
00:30:48
But I was like, I n-
I never understood it. What do you mean they practiced polygamy?
00:30:53
Like, it just felt icky to me
from the very beginning, right? It felt… And I, I didn't,
I didn't buy the excuses.
00:31:00
It just, it didn't feel right, you know? And then, and then there was the
racism in the church about withholding,
00:31:06
withholding African Americans
from holding the, the priesthood. Um, and then there was wh- what Mormons
called the Word of Wisdom, which was
00:31:16
like, "Don't drink coffee," and, you
know, "Don't drink alcohol," and, "Don't smoke," and all those things.
00:31:21
But the coffee one w- uh, never
made sense to me, 'cause people were chugging Diet Cokes all the time.
00:31:25
So I was like, "Well, I don't get it. Like, this
doesn't make any logic." Exactly.
00:31:30
Exactly. It just didn't make sense to me. But, but I would just bury those things.
00:31:36
Like, "Well, you know, I just
need to have more faith." I would bury that all the time.
00:31:42
And, "This life is a trial. I just need to learn to accept it. I just need to be more righteous.
00:31:46
I just need to read my
scriptures more often. I just need to pray more often."
And I did that for years, and I, I
00:31:55
largely followed the Mormon path. The Mormon path is very prescribed. The role of a woman is to get married
young and start having children.
00:32:05
Like, she's a homemaker, right? And so I went to BYU, where I was then,
kind of like you were talking about
00:32:13
in your homeschool, you're surrounded
by everyone who does the same things and believes the same things, right?
00:32:19
Right but then I went to BYU, where
I was really in a monoculture. And so I, I don't think I
really knew that I had a choice.
00:32:33
Like, leaving the church
was definitely not a choice. Getting married la- later was, didn't
seem like a choice, 'cause everybody
00:32:40
was talking about getting married. Like, that's what everybody was doing. And so I met my husband at BYU,
um, and we got married very young.
00:32:53
I was 20 years old. And, you know, it's not
that I didn't love him. I do, and we're still married today,
so it worked out great, but it
00:32:59
doesn't work out great for everybody. But so we got, you know, we got married,
and we started having kids right away
00:33:04
because that was the expectation. And, um, a few years
later, we moved to Idaho.
00:33:11
We now had three kids, and I found myself
in a really dark place of severe anxiety.
00:33:19
I was having panic attacks all
the time and really depressed. And, but yet I was doing everything that
I was told a righteous woman does, right?
00:33:32
I was taking my kids to church. We were doing all the,
following all the rules. I was a stay-at-home mom.
00:33:38
I wasn't working, yet I was really
depressed and anxious all the time, which affected the kind of mother
that I was showing up as, you know?
00:33:50
And looking back on that, I can say that
was my, my body screaming at me, "This is not a life that is aligned for you.
00:34:01
You are following a prescribed
life that does, is not authentic. This is not you." But again, I
was taught to distrust myself,
00:34:13
and so I would just push it down. No, this is my divine role. I even remember there was…
My husband was working.
00:34:20
I was a stay-at-home mom, and I was
really struggling, and I, I remember saying to some people at church, some
church leaders, like, "You know, my
00:34:28
husband's really great with the kids,
and I would really like to work. What if we just switched roles?"
00:34:35
Yeah, that's not gonna happen. And they were like… I mean, you
would have thought I, I don't know,
00:34:41
threatened to k- murder somebody. They were like, "No, that
is not your divine purpose.
00:34:47
You're a woman. You, your divine purpose is to stay at
home, and your husband's divine role
00:34:52
is to provide." And it was like, "You
do not go against the norm," right? And so there was a lot of things that
happened where I just felt really,
00:35:04
really uncomfortable, real, you know,
things brought up a lot of anxiety. I hated going to church.
00:35:10
And Then I, when, it was when I turned
29, I was like, "I can't live like this. I can't live like this anymore."
And I never graduated from BYU.
00:35:21
I got kicked out, which
is a whole other story. But, um, but I was like, "I'm gonna go back
to school." And we were living in
00:35:29
Idaho, so I went back to school, and
I went to, uh, Boise State University, and I chose to become a teacher.
00:35:38
Now, why did I come, ch-
choose to become a teacher? Not really 'cause I was
passionate about teaching.
00:35:43
I chose to become a teacher because
that was the most benign job a Mormon mom could have, right?
00:35:49
Because it, my husband was also a teacher. It, I would have the
same schedule as my kids.
00:35:54
I wouldn't have to put
them in daycare, you know? So it was like, "Okay, I could do this,
and what do I like? Well, I really
00:36:01
like s- I really like biology, so I'll
be a biology high school teacher." And but even, even though I didn't
necessarily choose a career that I
00:36:10
probably would have chosen if I was
making a decision just for me, it at least started to give me independence,
and I started to make my own money.
00:36:20
And I started to see that I didn't have
to be dependent on a church or on a husband or anyone else, and that I was
successful and worthy and accomplished as
00:36:31
m- as me, not as a wife and a mom, that
that didn't have to be my only identity.
00:36:38
So and so through all of this, I mean, now
I'm really questioning things at church.
00:36:44
Like, I'm really uncomfortable at church. I don't like the things
we're talking about.
00:36:48
I don't like the things
that they're teaching. But a- but again, I just
keep pushing it down, right?
00:36:56
Then, um, we got the jobs overseas,
and the first country we moved to was Kazakhstan, which nobody knows
where that is, and that's okay.
00:37:06
So it's a post-Soviet country
just south of Russia for those who don't know where Kazakhstan is.
00:37:14
And that That was the best decision I
ever made because we moved overseas. Nobody even, nobody even
knew the word Mormon.
00:37:26
Like, "You're what religion? What's
Mormon? I have no idea." Like, we were surrounded by people from all
over the world, from a variety of
00:37:35
different countries and cultures
and religious backgrounds, and they didn't know what Mormonism was.
00:37:40
So it was really great. But what it allowed me to do is that
physical separation allowed me to
00:37:46
step outside of it, step outside of
the culture that I was living in, and see it much more objectively.
00:37:57
And so then we started traveling a
lot, and we would go to, like, Hindu temples or Muslim mosques or different
cathedrals or even, um, like places
00:38:08
where Zoroastrians used to worship
fire, and they would feel very spiritual to me, and that was confusing.
00:38:17
And, and I remember, like, seeing people
go to these religious sacred places really
00:38:26
dedicated and devoted and 100% committed
to their religion, to their faith, and I thought, "But I was always taught that
Mormons were the most faithful, that
00:38:38
Mormons were the most committed, that we
were the ones that had true conviction,
00:38:43
and no other religion had that." So it really got me outside of that
bubble that I was living in, and I could
00:38:52
start to look at the beliefs that I was
given growing up, the, the faith that I followed up until age 35, um, and I
could see it objectively for what it was
00:39:06
you talk about the separation, and I think Yeah like, w- you know, 2020, a lot of
people that I've talked to who have
00:39:14
left religion, uh, or just reshaped
their belief system, 2020 was a big part of that for a lot of people.
00:39:21
And mostly because, guess what? The world was shut down. Nobody could talk to each other.
00:39:25
We couldn't see each other. Churches couldn't gather, right? And so it really gave, I think, people
that space and that time to kind of really
00:39:32
Yeah tough questions of, like, you know,
and, and for those people who maybe were experiencing something similar
like you were with the panic attacks
00:39:39
and the feeling, just that anxiousness
going to a church setting, all of a sudden that quiets, and you then
can start to ask yourself, "Well,
00:39:47
why is this quiet all of a sudden?" Right? And, like, this actually feels, Mm. like, normal, or maybe this feels the
00:39:53
Yeah feel. And, you know, I'm so thankful
when I stopped going to church, it was during college, and it was
because I burned out of church.
00:40:04
I was going about six days a week, uh,
to some kind of service, and serving at a lot of them, whether it was,
like, worship band or just handing
00:40:11
out pamphlets or, like, whatever. And I had a pastor who saw this and s- and
he had lunch with me, and he just goes,
00:40:17
"Hey, you just, at the bare minimum, you
gotta stop, like, serving inside of the
00:40:22
church and just gotta, like, attend."
But he's like, "I actually think you need to take, like, a month off and
just not come to church at all." which
00:40:28
then a month became two months, and then
three months, and those kind of things.
00:40:32
Uh, because, because I got that feeling,
that s- that settling feeling, that peace feeling inside of myself where I
was like, "Oh." Like, it just felt like
00:40:41
this weight was, like, no longer on my
shoulders of, like, I am committed to this thing, and I still was a believer.
00:40:46
But then any time I would go back
to church after that, I would just get that same weight of, like,
responsibility again, um, and that
00:40:53
anxiousness of, like, "I have to perform. I have to do this thing." And so, um,
yeah, so I kind of realized, I was like,
00:41:00
"I don't think this…" I started being
like, "I don't think this church is the right fit." And then I'd go to a different
church, and I'd still feel the same way.
00:41:05
And I'm like, "Okay, well, this
church isn't the right fit." So I was, like, seeking out a church,
and then I eventually came to
00:41:09
the conclusion that I was like,
think it's just church in general. I don't think it's actually, like, one
particular church." But I like what
00:41:15
you were saying about that kind of,
like, that separation piece really, I Yeah adds that component.
00:41:21
And then, um, attached onto that,
were saying about going to some of these religious places, whether it's
a mosque or a temple or something
00:41:27
like that, and seeing and being in
those places, I'm interested because I think sometimes you, you said you
felt like it was a spiritual place.
00:41:36
But a lot of times I feel like inside
of kind of the high-control religions, we're taught that when you're in those
places, that, that spiritual feeling is
00:41:43
meant to be or is a, like, evil presence. It's the enemy. So did you have any of that, or
were you actually like, "Okay,
00:41:51
no, like, this is just actually
a, a peaceful spiritual place"? eventually it got to the point where it
was like, "No, this is just a peaceful,
00:41:58
spiritual place." But, you know, since
this was kind of a slow erosion of stepping away from the LDS church,
in the beginning it wasn't like that.
00:42:07
But I also, I had had some… I had
traveled a little bit, like, in high school, and so I had been to some other
places whe- you know, like, I'd been
00:42:17
to Europe and been to some Catholic
cathedrals, and I interpreted th- it that way when I was, like, in high school.
00:42:24
Like, "Oh, well this is just, you know,
Satan deceiving me, so you know." But, but
00:42:29
as I now have had some more experiences
of slowly stepping away, slowly stepping away, slowly stepping away,
um, I realized, "No, this feels good.
00:42:40
This doesn't feel bad. This is something that feels expansive
and light." And I remember actually
00:42:46
having one experience, it was,
it was in, I think, 2014 or 2015. It was right before I had made the
decision to leave the church and, um,
00:42:57
I had taken a group of students to
Barcelona, and we went to Sagrada Família, which is that beautiful cathedral that
looks like the dripping candles, right?
00:43:08
I mean, it's just spectacular, and
you go inside and it has all this stained glass of, um, like these trees.
00:43:16
It looks like trees on the inside, and
all these beautiful colors coming in. And I remember sitting down in
that cathedral and seeing the
00:43:24
beauty of these trees and the light
and, like, bursting into tears. Like, just feeling this really s- deep
spiritual connection to this place and
00:43:36
to this beauty and a real appreciation. Um, but I wouldn't have had that
experience if I hadn't already slowly
00:43:44
been stepping away and slowly making
independent choices and just, and paying attention to what felt good for me
00:43:53
Yeah. you would've totally missed it. You would've, Yeah, I would've missed it. Yeah
00:43:57
in that, like, what I'm feeling is, is a
spiritual presence, but it's the enemy.
00:44:02
It's, you know, Yes or, maybe there is no spiritual
presence, you know, blah, you know?
00:44:07
So that's so, Yeah I'm, I'm curious too, like, you
know, one of the things once you
00:44:13
get outside of it and you finally
are like, "Okay," like, "I'm out. I've removed myself." Like,
you could say it out loud.
00:44:19
I remember the day I literally
looked in the mirror and I was like, "I'm not a Christian anymore."
00:44:23
Oh, I remember that day too. Yeah A- a- and I said that, and I said,
"You are a good person." And I was
00:44:30
like, "That feels really weird in
my body." And you know, and I was like, "And you want good f- things
for other people, and that doesn't
00:44:37
come from your belief in the Bible. That just comes from the fact that
you are a human being who wants
00:44:41
good things for other people." Hmm. crying, um, in that moment and, and,
and being really overwhelmed, and I
00:44:48
was like, "Oh, whoa, this is different
than I had ever experienced." But since that, you know, a lot of, I'm gonna
call them religious traumas pop up,
00:44:58
Yeah of those trainings. It's a lot of that stuff that just
was so deeply ingrained in who we
00:45:03
are as, as children, as young adults,
even as full-fledged adults with kids. I'm curious for you, as you stepped
outside of that and you finally were able
00:45:12
to say like, "Okay, I'm not this anymore. I'm no longer a Mormon. I no longer believe this," what do you
do then as those things start to pop up
00:45:20
for you, where you're like, "Okay, now
I have to unlearn all these teachings that have existed inside of my body"?
00:45:25
How are you dealing with that? Oh my gosh, it was so confusing. It was so confusing.
00:45:31
Like, you know, you s- you say you
remember the moment that you could say, "I'm not Christian." I was the same way.
00:45:35
I can remember the moment where the
church had come up with, come out with a policy that just slapped me in the face,
and I j- and I was already mostly out
00:45:44
at the time, but, but I s- I couldn't
bring myself to say, "I am not Mormon." Like, I just, ugh.
00:45:52
Like, I couldn't bring
myself to say those words. And they came out with a policy
that I, I just really, really had a
00:45:59
visceral reaction to, and I remember
walking upstairs, going into my bedroom, shutting the door, looking
at myself in the mirror, and saying
00:46:08
out loud, "I am not Mormon." And,
like, I just felt it in my whole body. Like, I am not Mormon.
00:46:15
And so, and in that moment, like, I
just, I felt like, I felt like the world just opened up into a million stars.
00:46:23
Like, it just felt so expansive. So there's this great moment of,
like, 100% certainty and clarity that
00:46:31
I am not Mormon, and then the next
day it was like, "Then what am I?" Wait. Just a little
00:46:38
I'm dread yeah, like, you know, I know what I'm
not, but I don't know what I am because
00:46:44
I have spent 35 years tell- telling
myself I'm Mormon, I'm a daughter of God, I'm all of those things, all of
the identities that the church gave me.
00:46:57
And so if I'm n- if I don't identify
with that, I don't know who I am. I don't know who I am.
00:47:02
And I had started raising
my kids in it, you know? And so it was like, "Oh, how, how am I
gonna have this conversation with my kids?
00:47:10
It's gonna look like I'm just
tearing this, the rug of certainty right out from under them, and
that's not what a good mom does.
00:47:19
A good mom is the rock. She's the stable one. She has the certainty. She, you know, is grounded, and she
directs her kids in the right path."
00:47:27
Like, I had all these definitions
of what a good mom was, what a good wife was, and I was petrified.
00:47:35
So at first, I just kind of hid
from it, to be honest, and I was on the other side of the world,
so it was easy to hide from it.
00:47:43
And my kids were, uh, when I made
the decision to say I'm not Mormon, my kids were ages 9, 11, and 13.
00:47:50
So they were old enough to know, you
know, what we had started bringing them up in, but then still young
enough where it wasn't like we needed
00:47:59
to necessarily have the really big
existential conversations yet, so I felt like I had time to hide, which
maybe wasn't necessarily the best route.
00:48:09
Looking back, I probably could
have been a lot more open. In fact, like, just, like, side note,
just this Christmas, um, my daughter
00:48:18
who's, she's 21, she comes to me and
we were talking about, you know, me leaving the religion and all of that,
and how I… And she said, "Mom, you
00:48:25
never really, like, sat us down and
said, 'We're not Mormon anymore.'" And I said, "I know.
00:48:32
You know, I was so scared. I didn't even know what I believed, and
so I didn't know how to tell you guys."
00:48:40
And she gave me a lot of grace in that
moment, and she said, "Mom, I think if you would have told us, we would have
understood, and we could have helped
00:48:47
you through it." And I was like- Wow. You know? I didn't have to be so alone, because
that was also a part of it, is I felt
00:48:56
really alone in, in this deconstruction. Like, I had left, I had stepped
away, but nobody… I didn't know
00:49:02
anybody else at the time who had left. Now people are leaving the LDS
church in droves, but at the time,
00:49:07
I didn't know anybody else who had
left, and I was not surrounded by people who knew what Mormonism was.
00:49:14
And I was even talking to… When my
parents first found out that I left, that was a very big deal, and I remember
really just wallowing in the reality
00:49:26
of their opinion of me has now changed. And I was talking to a friend
of mine who was French.
00:49:36
You know, we were living in Kazakhstan,
and one of my best friends was French, and she was s- she had no
frame of reference for Mormonism.
00:49:43
And I was just talking to her about
all the feelings I was having and, uh, you know, the consequences this
is gonna mean for my relationship
00:49:49
with my parents and my family. And she looked at me, and she
was like, "Audra, it sounds
00:49:53
like you're leaving ISIS." That's how it feels sometimes, yeah. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's what
it looks like to the outside world,"
00:50:02
and I couldn't recognize that because
that's the amount of control that the church has over your psyche, right?
00:50:09
Over, over your, your thoughts and
your beliefs and your behaviors. And even now, you know, I've been
out of the church over 10 years, and
00:50:19
even now there's something that comes
up and I go, "Okay, is that really my voice talking or is that my inner
Mormon critic that's still, still
00:50:28
in there that I haven't, I haven't,
you know, pieced that part out yet?" Yeah. So-
00:50:34
to your point, I think also so much of
our, because so much of our identity is tied to that, and then so much
of the community is tied to that,
00:50:42
Yeah the reason it feels so lonely is because,
like, like you were saying with your
00:50:46
parents, you know that their opinion of
you has just changed, and that's, like, Yes
00:50:51
because they can't relate
to it a lot of times. They don't fee- they, they don't
00:50:55
No way or they don't believe
the same thing or, you know. And so even, like, with your kids and
talking about, you know, you struggling
00:51:01
to even tell them, it's like, you
know, there probably is this fear. I wrestled very much with telling my
family when I was no longer a Christian
00:51:08
because I was just like, there was this
fear that this very certain thing in my life, my family, the one thing that's
supposed to just love me unconditionally,
00:51:16
you know, be there when I need them,
to, to back me, to, you know, just be a rock, w- I was like, "Are they
going to abandon me in that moment?"
00:51:25
And that's a very scary feeling because
then you truly are alone, you know? And so,
00:51:31
Yeah don't, I don't blame you
for feeling that way. I'm, I'm curious, you know, your
husband stands in all this, because
00:51:38
you said you met at BYU, and so, like,
w- uh, was he also deconstructing? Was he s- still in it?
00:51:46
Like, how do you reconcile that? Because I, I know at least, at least
in Christianity, in evangelical
00:51:51
Christianity, there's very much this,
like, um, uh, there's, uh, there's this stupid verse that always talks
about, like, the ox and, like, you have
00:52:00
to be, like, evenly weighted, right? And you have to be, like, Oh, paired, and it's
00:52:04
The yolk. It's, like, kind of b*llshit. Um, Yeah right? And, like, w- as soon as you're not,
then it's like your relationship
00:52:11
is gonna just start to, like,
crumble and fall apart, right? And it's like, it's, it's very
much like a b*llshit thing.
00:52:17
But it, it just feels, you know, like
I was scared to even tell my wife, and she did not grow up religious.
00:52:23
So, like, you know, of, of all the people,
I had, I didn't need to be afraid of her.
00:52:27
But for you and your relationship,
I'm sure that to some degree it's built on this religious background.
00:52:32
So where Yeah this, and how is he reacting to
you kind of coming to this place? Yeah, I mean, my husband
did eventually leave.
00:52:39
He didn't leave at the
same time that I did. Um, I… He knew I was struggling. I've always been very much an open book
and just would share all of my, you know,
00:52:52
concerns and doubts and, and feelings with
him, and he's, he's always also been very
00:52:59
supportive, and he's always listened to
understand, not listen to respond, right?
00:53:05
That's a really good trait that he has. And so he, him and I have, we had a
lot of really good conversations and,
00:53:15
and there would be times when I would
say, "I don't believe this," and he would say, "Well, I'm not there yet.
00:53:21
You know, I, I see your point, but, you
know, I, I still believe that," or, "I still wanna take the kids to church."
00:53:28
And so we had a relat- or have,
still have, we're still married. We have a relationship that is really
based on mutual respect, and I respected
00:53:40
his choice to still believe and still
be in the church even after I left, and he respected my choice to leave.
00:53:48
So that has been… We've been lucky,
I think especially 'cause we got married so young and we just followed
the Mormon-prescribed path of, like,
00:54:00
you know, we'd only known each other
for six weeks when we got engaged. Oh, so you're one of those stories?
00:54:06
We're one of those stories, yeah. So, like, really statistically,
we should have fallen apart
00:54:11
in the first couple of years. So I, I do think that we are
one of the rare stories where we
00:54:17
actually were perfectly matched. And, and so he's been really respectful
through the whole process, and we're
00:54:25
just respectful of each other's
opinions even if they're different. We've never had, like, a
contentious relationship.
00:54:33
We've never had big fights about things. We can disagree, but we don't ever
really fight about it, and I love that
00:54:39
about our relationship and about him. And so when I made the decision to
leave, he was like, "Okay, I can see
00:54:47
that this is what is best for you. I'm not leaving." And I said, "Okay."
But then about a year later, you know,
00:54:55
he had had more, a little more processing
time and some other experiences where then he could say, "Yeah, I'm done, too."
00:55:05
I think that's really powerful what
you said about relationships, and I, I wanted to add one thing to that.
00:55:11
But l- I like what you said about
the mutual respect aspect of it. I think a lot of times in the
high-control religion, from a guy
00:55:17
perspective, guys are really taught
that we are, we're the leader. We're the guy.
00:55:22
We call the shots. Like, you know, it's, it's a
woman's job to just fall in line in a lot of circumstances.
00:55:28
And I'm thankful that I also had good
people in my life who were saying, "Nah, it's not totally true." Like,
there's a, there's a respect there.
00:55:36
There's a, there's a partnership there
that it's like, you know, like you were saying, you, you respect each other, you
listen to each other, you hear each other
00:55:44
Yeah know, it's … And, and, and
you work through it together. And, you know, sometimes you don't know
where it's gonna go, but it … You know,
00:55:51
you just work through it, and it's okay. And I, I think, to tack onto that, heard,
I wanna say it was, like, a therapist or
00:55:58
maybe a relationship coach or something
way back in the day, who talked about, you know, a lot of times about, like,
you know, you meet your soulmate,
00:56:06
and then you're perfectly paired, and
the stars align, and the whatever. there's also a level to relationships
that's very much like you wake up in the
00:56:12
morning and you choose to love somebody. And some days it's really Oh days it's really easy.
00:56:17
And, you know, but you still can
choose to put that effort in. And what I see sometimes happen in
these high-control background scenarios
00:56:26
is that one person walks away, and
the other person goes, "Well, we're no longer aligned," and they just, they
choose to not work on it anymore, and
00:56:32
they just say, "I'm done," and they walk Yes right? And that's, that's tough, you know?
00:56:37
It goes back again to that, that creating
that isolating experience where you feel alone because the person is not
willing to have that mutual respect
00:56:45
to, to work on it, to, to talk through
it, to hear the other person out. They're just like, "Eh, you
no longer align with who I
00:56:51
am as a person. the door." Yeah, and I, I see that a lot, like,
with clients that I talk to when, when
00:57:00
one partner leaves and the other stays. There's a lot… There, there's an
imbalance of power in the relationship
00:57:08
that's often kind of coming from
their church upbringing that the man is the head of the household.
00:57:14
And, um, there's definitely an imbalance,
and it many times leads to the end of the marriage, which is unfortunate.
00:57:26
Um, but also, you know, when you…
So after you kind of deconstruct your faith and then you're trying to
reconstruct, "Well, then who am I?" One
00:57:34
of the things I had to do, which was
several years after I left the church, um, I really, I found myself in this
place of grief for the life unlived.
00:57:45
So what would my life have
been if I wasn't Mormon? What would my life had been if
I didn't get married so young?
00:57:53
What would my life ha- have been
if I chose a different career? Like, all those big life decisions that
I made based on what the Mormon culture
00:58:03
and religion was telling me, if I had
made those based on me, where would I have
00:58:08
been and what life would I have lived? So I found myself in this real place
of grief, and one of those questions I
00:58:14
had to grapple with was, at the time,
we had been married 23 years, and would I, do I still choose this person today?
00:58:24
I chose this person when I
was a 20-year-old Mormon girl choosing a priesthood holder
who would lead our family.
00:58:34
Like, would I, do I still choose this
person today now that I'm an independent director of a school with, uh, three
grown children and I'm no longer Mormon?
00:58:46
Do I still choose this person today? So there's a lot of really big questions
that you have to, you have to ask
00:58:53
yourself, and it's really overwhelming
because you can, you can change the trajectory of your life from here forward.
00:59:01
You can't change the past, but you can
change where your life is going here forward, and now you're, it's like you're
making those big life decisions all over
00:59:10
again, the ones that you made in your
20s, now you're making them in your 40s. Yeah.
00:59:15
I think I'm kind of in that grief place
maybe that you're talking about currently.
00:59:21
And, you know, uh, much from a
perspective of I, I think I'm just… I've been asking that question of like,
well, if I hadn't have done this, if
00:59:31
I hadn't have gone to this school,
if I hadn't have done, you know, X, Y, Z, all the things you just said.
00:59:36
I hadn't have Yeah this person, 'cause I also got mar- I
got married at 22, so I also got married
00:59:40
Okay. Um, a little, little older, but um,
th- you know, still v- relatively young compared to some other people
00:59:49
Yes and, i- but yeah, it's this very strange
place to be in sometimes, 'cause yeah,
00:59:56
you are working through those big
questions because now is the point where you get to say, "Well, do I wanna pivot?
01:00:02
Do I wanna change? What do I wanna change? How do I change it? Does it mean career?
01:00:06
Does it mean this? Does it mean…" Yeah All of the different things,
and that's very overwhelming.
01:00:10
It's very frustrating. Especially, you know, you
wake up thinking about it. You wake up in the middle of
the night thinking about it.
01:00:16
You go to bed thinking about it, you know? And it's like, Yeah very overwhelming.
01:00:21
So I'm curious, like, 'cause now
you're coaching people as they're exiting these high-control things.
01:00:26
So how do, how do you… Yeah talk about how you got into
that, but then let's talk
01:00:30
Okay maybe some of the process of
actually, like, going through a coaching with someone like yourself.
01:00:35
You know, I came to this point
around the time when I was, uh, trying to make the decision of
whether I still choose my husband.
01:00:44
I, I had this moment, it's a really
simple story, but I like telling this story because I think it really
demonstrates the, how much of yourself
01:00:53
you give up in a high-control religion. So it was Thanksgiving. I was making apple pie.
01:00:59
I always make apple pie from scratch. So I'm putting all this time and
effort, you know, this crust the
01:01:04
night before, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, make an apple pie. And I'm finding myself really resentful
in the kitchen, like, "Uh, I hate making
01:01:12
apple pie. I don't even like apple pie." Then I was like, "I don't like apple
pie. Well, then why am I making apple
01:01:20
pie if I don't even like apple pie?"
And it's like, well, it's my husband's favorite, and my kids like it.
01:01:29
And then I was like, "Well,
what's my favorite kind of pie?" And it's like, I didn't know.
01:01:35
I didn't even know what my
favorite kind of pie was. Like, how do I not know this?
01:01:40
How do I know everyone else's
favorites and I don't know mine? And so it just sent me down this rabbit
hole of like, I have spent my entire
01:01:50
life serving other people, making
sure other people are happy, you know, and I don't even know my desires.
01:01:59
And, and I, so I really went down
this, well then, what are my desires? What do I want?
01:02:06
And one of those questions that
I was already grappling with was, do I choose my husband?
01:02:13
But I couldn't even figure out what
kind of pie I liked, so how was I gonna make the decision of whether
I chose my husband, you know?
01:02:20
And, um, I ended up finding a coach
who had a program that was all about should I stay or should I go, making the
decision to stay or go in your marriage.
01:02:33
And like, I actually found her on
Instagram and, like, every, every reel that she had, I was like, "How does
she know that I was thinking that? I
01:02:40
haven't told anybody that." It was like
she was looking into my soul, you know? And so, um, so I jumped into her
program 'cause I was like, "I, I can't
01:02:50
stay in this place of confusion and
stay or go, stay or go, stay or go," because I can't, I don't even know
what kind of pie I like, so I can't
01:02:57
make the decision to stay or go. Like, my, I, I was
spiraling in my thoughts. I was super overreactive, and that's
one of the things that happens that's
01:03:05
really common when you're reconstructing
your life after leaving religion. Um, and some of the things that I learned
in her coaching program was before you
01:03:16
can even make a big decision like that,
you have to really get to know yourself.
01:03:23
You have to calm your nervous system. You have to be able to
identify emotional triggers.
01:03:29
Where's that emotion coming from? Listen to your body, and then find
out if there's a belief there that's
01:03:36
not yours that's giving you an- that
emotional response to something. And then if you, if it is a
belief that's not yours, w- then
01:03:49
what do you choose to believe? What's a belief that's
more aligned with you? So it was a lot about, like, nervous
system regulation, being clear in your
01:03:57
emotions, being clear in, in, in the
beliefs that were running your behaviors in the background subconsciously.
01:04:05
And then once you kinda work through that
process, and you can start to regulate
01:04:10
emotions, you can make decisions from
a place of peace because decisions should not be made from a place of
worry or anger or frustration, right?
01:04:18
They, they should be made from a
place of peace, but you have to do a lot of work to get to that place
before you make a big decision.
01:04:26
Yeah so I'd gone through this c-
coaching program with her, and it was transformational.
01:04:32
Like, the things I learned about myself
and the things I learned about being able to identify emotions and really dig
into journaling and all of that was just
01:04:43
so powerful that by the end of it I was
able to make a really clear decision. I choose him today.
01:04:50
I still choose him every day. And so at the end of that program, I
was talking to my coach, and I said,
01:04:59
"You know, I've made the decision
to stay in my marriage, and I'm also coming to the realization that I'm in
a career that doesn't align with me
01:05:06
either." And, you know, I, I really
like working, like when students would come in and they would have, you know,
emotional breakdowns or whatever, I
01:05:17
liked being their pseudo counselor
and helping them work through that. And then when I moved into administration,
I really liked it when parents would
01:05:23
come in and they, you know, "I need
help with, with my child," and they would come in for parenting advice.
01:05:29
And I said, "Thinking about maybe
doing something like that," like some kind of coaching or, you know,
counseling with parents and…
01:05:37
'Cause I know, I know the struggles
of raising children for sure. And, um, and she said to me, "Well,
what demographic do you wanna work
01:05:46
with?" I said, "Uh, I don't know."
Wasn't really sure, and she knew about my faith deconstruction, and she said,
"Have you thought about working with
01:05:57
other moms who left the Mormon Church?" And, like, as soon as she
said that, I burst into tears.
01:06:05
And I was like, "Yes." That is
it, because when you leave, you're lonely, you lose family, you lose
friends, you're going through grief,
01:06:16
but it's not like somebody died. It's a grief of something
that's still there, right?
01:06:21
And, and you have a loss of self, you have
mom guilt, you feel like you're screwing
01:06:26
up your kids, and so many things are
happening, you can't make sense of it. And so I now have… That's
the path that I'm taking is I
01:06:39
am a coach for ex-Mormon moms. I help them make sense of it. They… I'm very clear.
01:06:47
I only work with moms
who have already left. So I don't help people make the
decision to leave a religion
01:06:53
because that is totally up to them. I don't wanna have any
influence over that. But if people have already made the choice
to leave and they're going through these
01:07:03
big emotions that they have, I help them
become the authority in their own life.
01:07:09
I help them learn how to tune
into themselves and learn how to observe without engagement, learn
how to have boundaries, learn how
01:07:17
to love themselves so fiercely
that it's the only love they need. And that's huge.
01:07:24
That's huge. And then, and that also translates
into parenting because, you know,
01:07:29
parenting is a subset of who we are. But you can't be the mom you wanna
be if you're not clear on who
01:07:35
you are as an individual first One of the biggest things that my mom
has apologized for and just talked
01:07:43
about more recently with my sister
and I has been this, you know, when she started homeschooling us, I was,
I was eight, my sister was five.
01:07:53
my sister was homeschooled
all the way through. I was coming in at second grade, second,
third grade, something like that.
01:08:00
my mom says th- this thing all the time. She goes, "I was not an emotionally
healthy person when we started
01:08:05
homeschooling." And so, like, my
memory, really know my sister's memory on this, but my memory of the first
couple years of homeschooling really
01:08:14
rough, and it's very just, like, messy. I think part of it is I also ca- I
came from public school before that,
01:08:22
and I, so I was used to organized… I'm an organized person. I'm a, I'm a first-born kid.
01:08:26
I like organization, um, kind of a thing. And so it just wasn't that, and so it
just didn't flow with me very well.
01:08:33
But then we found our footing a little
bit after a couple years, it felt like. But also, my mom started
to get emotionally healthy.
01:08:41
She found out who she was as a mom, and
she answered some of those questions. And once she kind of started to dial
that in a lot more, it's something
01:08:49
she's still working on to this day. Um, here we are. I'm almost 30, and my mom's still
working on herself, so kudos, Mom.
01:08:55
But, like, it definitely has, like,
shaped our relationship in a lot of ways because, you know, she, her identity
is not me and my sister and my dad.
01:09:07
It Yeah her own identity that
she's built for herself. And so, you know, I think that that's
very powerful, and I, I commend you for
01:09:13
what you do because, yeah, it, it feels Thank you as someone who, I'm not
a parent, I'm not a mom.
01:09:18
Like you know? But I, but I, I, know that feeling of,
like, the loneliness that comes with that.
01:09:24
And so having Yeah who's gonna, who's gonna walk you
through that and hold your hand,
01:09:28
Yep just is so meaningful Yeah, it real- it really is. You know, I mean, moms, moms have a real
deep connection with their kids, but
01:09:38
if they're not sure who they are, then
it's always a little bit superficial. And, you know, when you, when you get
rid of the identity of, of a religion,
01:09:50
so, you know, you told yourself, let's
say from the age of six, "I am Mormon," that's your identity, I am, I am Mormon.
01:09:57
When you get rid of that, it's like
you kinda have to go back to being a six-year-old and grow up all over again.
01:10:04
Or, you know, whatever age that belief or
identity was installed in you, once you
01:10:08
get rid of it, you, you have to go back. And so a lo- in a lot of ways, I felt
like I was growing up with my kids.
01:10:17
And what I learned was, like,
it's okay to say to my kids, "I don't know what I believe.
01:10:26
I don't know what I feel about this. Let's talk about it. Let's walk, let's walk through it
together." And I, I learned that.
01:10:33
I learned it was safe to do that,
and part of that was I had to change my definition of what a good mom is.
01:10:40
You know, I talked in the beginning
about how, you know, a good mom has certainty for her kids, and she's
stable, and she's grounded, and, and
01:10:47
I learned that my definition of a good
mom had to change to a good mom listens, a good mom understands, a good mom
leaves room for her kids to explore,
01:10:58
a good mom promotes independence. So now I have a totally different
definition of what a good mom
01:11:05
is, and I help women come up
with their own definition. It doesn't- not my definition, but their
own definition of what a good mom is
01:11:16
There's a, a really good book I read
when I called When Religion Hurts You, Ah Dr., uh, Laura Anderson,
I think is her name.
01:11:27
Um, if I butchered that, sorry. I'll make sure it's linked down below
for people if they wanna check it out.
01:11:32
Um, but, but in that book, she, she talked
about, you know, you, you, you brought
01:11:37
up this idea of like, you know, you can't
make a good decision when your body is,
01:11:42
like, in that fight or flight mode, and Yeah you know, just that fear and that, you
know, anxiety and things like that.
01:11:49
one of the things that that book
taught me so much about was the fact that, yeah, okay, we have fight
and we have flight, and then we
01:11:55
also have freeze and we have fawn. And there are these four places that a
lot of times when you exist inside of
01:12:01
a high-control religion, you're just
in this always on state of these, these triggers of, like, you're just ready
for any of those actions to kick in
01:12:12
at some point because of the beliefs
that you have around yourself of being a good person or being a bad person,
and how do you, you know, rectify all
01:12:20
those types of things, that you always
have to be running from, from the evil, and you have to be pursuing the good
and, and, and those kinds of things.
01:12:26
And so she lays it out very much like
a stop sign, and she's like, that's like a very yellow place to be, uh,
that then enters into, like, the red
01:12:33
zone, right, of, like, you're in danger. And that's why we have some of
the crazy reactions that we have
01:12:39
a lot of times, right, of, like, Yeah You know, we run away from situations. And she, and, and so again, like we were
talking about, when we eventually get
01:12:47
that separation, it's finally when we Yeah more of a green zone where we're, like, at
peace finally and we can hear our brain.
01:12:54
You know, we can hear our
body talk to ourselves. And so, like, it sounds like Yeah
01:12:57
what you're trying to do,
uh, with the moms that you're coaching, is get them out of
01:13:01
Yeah red and that yellow zone to be in a
green zone where, okay, now we're at peace, and now we can think clearly,
and now we can actually, like, listen
01:13:09
and, and, like, answer those questions. And that is, like, that's very hard to do.
01:13:13
But, um, Uh-huh. It is. It's not easy. I mean, you have to be willing
to go through the hard work.
01:13:19
You really do. It's not easy Do you have any tips or, like, um,
practices that you do to kind of
01:13:26
help people enter in that space? Like, I know for me, like, do, I
do yoga nidra and I do meditation.
01:13:31
That helps me enter into, like,
a much more peaceful zone. It chills out my nervous system.
01:13:35
But, like, you know, are there
things that you walk people through that are, like, how to get into
those places that are, are, are
01:13:42
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the, the first… Well,
definitely meditation is a big one. I don't usually start with that,
especially if, if women are straight
01:13:53
out of the church, 'cause they might
have, they might still have some lingering beliefs about, you know,
meditation and other spiritual practices.
01:14:01
It's something that I
incorporate in my life. What I start with is journaling,
so, like, diving into
01:14:07
different journaling questions. You know, often your beliefs are
rooted in your subconscious mind, and
01:14:15
they're sitting in the background. They're silently dictating your
thoughts, your emotions, your behaviors.
01:14:20
You don't know that it's there, and
your subconscious mind will speak to you through your body before
it gets to your conscious mind.
01:14:27
So your conscious mind, it gets
everything after it's been filtered. So a- all the information coming in
filters through your subconscious
01:14:34
mind, and then, you know, and then
only a very small percentage actually makes it to your consciousness, right?
01:14:40
And so, and then it's gonna be
based on the p- well-worn patterns that are already there as to
what you're starting to notice.
01:14:50
And, but your body is like your
subconscious mind speaking to you first, and your body can identify
true alignment before your conscious
01:14:59
mind will talk you out of it Right. based on your past
conditioning, essentially.
01:15:06
So when something… So what w- the first
thing that I always say is, like, to moms
01:15:11
when, when they come in to my program, is
when something happens that gives you that
01:15:17
unsure feeling, or there's some kind of
a, something that triggered you and you're
01:15:22
starting to feel emotionally reactive,
start paying attention to your body. If you're feeling some constriction,
like things feel tight or heavy or,
01:15:32
like, you know, tight in your throat
or something, start questioning that. So sit down with it.
01:15:39
Like, take the time with it and ask
yourself, "Where am I feeling this? What is the resistance that I'm feeling?
01:15:46
What is the belief that I'm feeling? What is the belief that is giving me this
feeling of constriction, like it just
01:15:54
doesn't feel right?" And maybe it's about
your definition of a good mom, or maybe
01:15:58
it's about a belief you have, you know,
about some lifestyle choice that you were
01:16:02
told was wrong, or whatever it may be. What's the belief behind it? And then when did I decide that?
01:16:08
Who did I get that belief from? And if it's not from yourself, then
you have uncovered a conditioned belief
01:16:20
that's no longer aligned for who you are. And then you can start
turning the questions towards,
01:16:26
well, what does feel right? So what alternate beliefs are
gonna feel good in my body?
01:16:31
And kind of test them out. Like, you know, changing your definition
of a good mom, does that feel expansive?
01:16:38
Does that feel open? Does that feel light? Well, then that's a belief that's
truly yours, and then that's where
01:16:43
you know that there's alignment. So the… Yeah, that's, that, that would
be the first action step is sit down,
01:16:51
write it out, question yourself, and pay
attention to how it feels in your body I, I, I relate so much to that because
I remember even when I started this
01:17:02
podcast, one of the things I've always
wrestled with is story doesn't matter. And I, and that was, like, this
thing that I would tell myself,
01:17:11
"Your story doesn't matter. Nobody really cares. Like, it's boring, it's whatever.
01:17:14
Like, nobody, nobody gives
a shit." Like, that's, that, Yeah the thing that was going through my brain.
01:17:20
And I did exactly what you just said. I sa- I- when that popped up and I
felt that imposter syndrome of like,
01:17:25
"I don't have anything important to
say," I was like, "Okay, why do I think that?" And it all stems from a comment
that was made to me at a church function
01:17:33
by an elder at the church who, who…
I went to a church that was very… I was, I was a Southern Baptist, and
if, if people are not familiar with
01:17:40
Southern Baptists, lotta, lotta rules. It's very much Yeah like, everybody gets a
say, we vote on stuff.
01:17:47
Like, it's, it's, it's way too much. It's, it's like a… It's a little
bit heavy-handed on a lotta things.
01:17:55
And so, you know, when I was a teenager,
I wanted a say because I was like, "I am an independent person. I want a say
in how this church is shaped." The ch-
01:18:03
the church was growing, it was shifting. One of the things they wanted was
more young people in the church.
01:18:07
There was, like, six of us. was like, "Well, we
need, like, louder music. We need, you know, this needs to change."
And I had an elder tell me to sit down and
01:18:14
shut up, and that confirmed in me that I
didn't, that my opinion didn't matter and
01:18:20
that I didn't have anything valid to say. And so for a long time I sat with that.
01:18:25
I think I was probably 26. I'm turning 30 this year. Like, this is a recent thing of me
finally being able to say, like, "No, I
01:18:34
have something valuable to say, and this
story will impact people, and this…" You know, and, and so,
01:18:39
Yeah but it took doing exactly what you said,
of sitting with it and feeling, "Why
01:18:43
am I reacting this way? Where does it
come from?" It was not my own brain. It was some old cranky white guy
01:18:48
Yep who said something to me when
I was, like, 13 years old. And, you know, that's a
long time to live with that.
01:18:55
And so, but Yeah. and I'm like, Amazing. me to shut up." Yeah, I love it. Good the, the rooftops, you know?
01:19:04
So that's a powerful first
step for a lot of people. Like you were saying, it's like it
just takes kind of that recognizing
01:19:10
where those things are coming
from to start with, you know? Yeah. you Yeah, for sure.
01:19:16
Yeah where can people get connected to you? How do people find you? I, you know, I know you're, you're
primarily working with moms, uh,
01:19:23
from, know, the Mormon Church. I know that's your focus. But, like, Yeah wanna hear more about what you're doing,
how, how do we get connected to you?
01:19:31
Yeah, that's a good question. So I have a website. It's called mamaaudra.com. Um, so you can go there and,
you know, get information.
01:19:40
I would say the first step, I have a
masterclass, which is five shifts that every ex-Mormon mom needs to make.
01:19:47
And so if you watch the masterclass,
if that resonates, then the next step is to book a call with me, and we
can talk about my Reclaimed program.
01:19:57
So this is a, it's an eight-week
coaching program, uh, for ex-Mormon moms. It helps you navigate the grief and
the guilt and the identity loss after
01:20:07
leaving the church so that you can
start to build some confidence in who you are as a woman and a mom, and
it's individual coaching, it's group
01:20:17
coaching, it's a whole curriculum. So, and I have a new cohort actually
starting the beginning of July,
01:20:23
'cause I'll be moving back to
the US, so the beginning of July I have a new cohort starting.
01:20:28
I'm really excited. So if you wanna go straight to
the masterclass, you can go to
01:20:33
mamaaudra.com/training, or you can
just go straight to the homepage of my website and there's a link there, too.
01:20:40
So th- that's the best way to, to get
ahold of me, and then I'm on social media, too, as Mama Audra, so…
01:20:47
Okay. Very good. I'm gonna make sure all that's
linked down below for people Great
01:20:53
if you're listening on audio,
you know, and you're driving your car, you know, you know
01:20:57
Yeah. Is there anything we haven't touched
on that you feel like is important or
01:21:02
s- anything you wanna highlight that I
haven't asked about before I let you go? I think my biggest message is just
for those moms who feel like maybe
01:21:10
hopeless, is that with someone to h-
hold your hand and help you get through this process, there is, there is a
way to really reclaim who you are.
01:21:23
You don't have to stay stuck in, in
an identity that doesn't work for you. I love that message.
01:21:29
That's a big part of what this show is
about is, is the not feeling alone, and Yeah
01:21:34
it, it's birthed out of a place of
me feeling alone in my homeschool experience, and that no one knew what I
had gone through and things like that.
01:21:41
out, there's hundreds of people,
there's thousands of people, uh, from all different age demographics that
have that same thing, and so that's why
01:21:50
I'm so glad you reached out and that
we got connected because, like, you know, that it, it's important to know
you're not alone in your experience.
01:21:57
Yeah. else who went through it. There, you know, and there's someone
else who can walk alongside of
01:22:01
you, who's been in that place. It just takes actually trying to, like,
search them out and find them sometimes.
01:22:07
So, um, you Yeah sometimes. So Yes much for coming on. I really appreciate it. It's, it's been great to, like, hear
more of your story and, and learn…
01:22:18
I learned so much about the LDS
church and about some of the things I need to work on in my own life.
01:22:24
Um, and so yeah, so thank you again
for coming on and sharing your story Oh, it's a pleasure.
01:22:30
It's a pleasure. You have a wonderful energy. Thank you, Jacob And to the audience, thank
you guys for listening.
01:22:36
I hope you guys enjoyed this. Let me know down in the comments below. Like, if you've got questions, uh,
if you wanna hear more stuff like
01:22:42
this, if you want us to go down the
religious route some more, I can, you know, find some more coaches.
01:22:46
Maybe Audra will come back. We'll talk more about stuff. But, uh, yeah, do all the internet things
you know how to do, like, subscribe,
01:22:53
share with a friend, you know, you
know, all the stuff, all the things. And, uh, until we see you next time,