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Today's episode features discussion about sexual abuse, pedophilia, and Christian nationalism, which may be
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upsetting for some audiences. Viewer discretion is advised. DL, welcome to the Ex Homeschoolers
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Club. I'm so stoked to have you uh on the show today. >> Thank you. I was just telling you uh I
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never get to talk about being homeschooled, so this could be fun. >> Yeah. No, I think it's going to be
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really great. I um for the audience, Dell is somebody who has a project called Strong Willed, which uh if you
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are familiar with Focus on the Family at all, you know, Strongwilled Child is uh
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kind of one of the major books from that and teachings of that. And so, it's kind
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of based off of that. And uh and I've been listening to your podcast and kind
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of just like following along with what you do on Instagram and and some of the things you post there. So, um, I'm
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excited not only to talk about your homeschool experience, uh, but also to talk about Focus on the Family and, uh,
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but yeah, I didn't until literally maybe an hour or two ago, I didn't know you
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were homeschooled. And I had kind of been digging trying to find in a bio or something if you had said like, oh yeah,
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I was a homeschooled kid. Uh, but I was like, I'm not sure. So, we'll see where
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it goes. But fill me in on your homeschool experience a little bit. Like, when were you a homeschool kid?
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How long were you a homeschool kid for? What was the homeschool experience like?
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Siblings, that kind of thing. Uh, walk me through, give me a taste of your homeschool life.
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>> Yeah, sure. Um, I feel like I used to talk about it a tiny bit more just in a
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very short way just as a way of introducing people to me. I would say I'm a homeschooled pastor's kid, right?
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And I, this is especially in the time I was writing books for Christian publishing. I was, you know, doing
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speaking engagements for Christian publishing, all that stuff. Now I don't talk about it as much, but you know,
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that's whatever. I I It's interesting thinking about the narratives I was told
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about the reasons I was homeschooled. Um I remember telling people like, "Yeah,
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my mom was just terrified that public school would cause us to leave the faith and we would go to hell." I I told
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people that like that was the reason we homeschool. And now, you know, I am 42 years old. I'm like, that's a really
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weird argument um for anything, but also I just think it's really a flimsy one as
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well. Also, it didn't work. I'm no longer a Christian. I am destined for
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the flames. Um, so sorry mom and dad, it didn't work. Um, but we had a just a
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interesting family life. the more I, you know, the more I get older and I go to therapy and all that, it's like we we
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had some issues in our family. My dad was an evangelical pastor and we moved every two to three years like like
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clockwork, you know, and my family always framed it as God's leading us to a new adventure,
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>> right? >> Now, I'm not sure about all the reasons why we moved all the time, but I'm
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assuming it's just broken relationships, you know, church drama. My dad was always at these like
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smaller evangelical churches all along the West Coast. So, yeah, maybe this will be interesting to your to your
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listeners, but I was homeschooled in states like Alaska, Wyoming, California, uh I guess not Oregon, but just, you
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know, there is a bit of a variety in each state and there was like a difference, a little bit of a difference
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to our homeschooling in each state. I'm the middle of three children. Um, and I
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was the one who did the best with homeschooling. I am a very mo like self-motivated learner. I'm a huge
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reader. I reading was my main dissociation, you know, coping mechanism. Even though I wasn't given a
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lot of access to books, I don't know if you remember like these huge Norton anthologies
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of like English literature and >> I think so. >> Yeah. So like we would get those, right?
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And my older sister would read some of it, I would be assigned some of it, and instead I just read through the entire
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thing, right? I'm reading every sing over and over and over again just because we didn't have access to that
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much and and so I really did well. However, I saw my younger sister in particular
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um really struggle >> academically and just there being no avenues or resources to help her. And so
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yeah, I mean it's kind of hard. But I always told everybody I loved being homeschooled because I would get all my
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work done in a few hours and then I would just read. I would play with my cats. I would go explore outside.
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And now that I've been diagnosed autistic, I'm like, I can see how that did work out pretty well for me in some
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ways. But again, since I'm autistic, I would say like 10 years ago, I started
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buying some of the history textbooks my mom used with me from Abeca, Bob Jones. Um,
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and just because I wanted to see how kind of awful the history was in particular, and it was way worse than I
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remembered. And so I've also had to sort of grapple with the amount of indoctrination that was an essential
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component to my homeschooling when we were actually homeschooled. So I don't
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know if this will resonate to anyone else, but there were certain years where my mom didn't do anything with us. I
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remember one year we lived in Wyoming and she was like, "Okay, we're going to
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read all the Little House on the Prairie books and try and cook acorn pancakes and that's it for this year." So, you
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know what I mean? Like, >> yeah, >> that was it. I was like, great, I guess
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I can reread um, you know, my Anna of Green Gables book for the 20th time and that's that's that's it. And so now I'm
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looking back like she was probably just depressed and just totally was like, that's all I have in me this year. Um,
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and so somehow I I kind of got through it. And then when I was in 11th grade, we moved to central Oregon to a small
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town and I asked my parents if I could go to the local high school because it was like 400 kids. And so they said,
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"Yeah." So then I was I went to school for like almost two full years. But
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yeah, my parents academics was not important to them. They wanted me to be a missionary. And my mom also
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experienced a lot of um I would call it religious psychosis about the end of the
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world. Again, I'm just throwing out all these things and I'm wondering like who
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will resonate and who will not, but that was a huge part of my mom >> is she always believed the end of the
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world was coming. So, we always had lots of homeschooled doomsday prepper friends
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and uh we were not as intense as them, but that's only because my dad was sort
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of like, I don't really believe in all this, but sure, I'll stockpile for Y2K,
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but um I don't really believe it. So, that was a huge part of the homeschooling movement for me and my
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family as well. Okay, that was a lot of info. >> No, that was No, that's really good
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because I think it gives a really good snapshot of like this show is all about the difference of experience, right? But
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there there's always things that tie together >> any of us, right? Because it it there
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there's something in there that resonates like you you mentioned like your parents homeschooled for religious
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reasons for that kind of like fear of indoctrination from public school and like the reasons I was given were much
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more had to do with like we were moving. My mom was kind of had kind of had this
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worm in her ear from my grandma and some friends who were homeschooled parents about doing it. And she was like, I
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think I can do it. And also, I don't love the school system in the area. And
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and whether that's like the truth or whether she was afraid, like that that was always the reason I was given was
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just kind of like, hey, we didn't love the school system in the area. So, we
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just figured let's do it at home for a little bit and see if it works. And but
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you can always go back to public school. It's not a big deal if if that's the
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case. And and then it just worked uh so to speak. and and she definitely I think
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structured it a little bit more. Um we had years that maybe weren't quite as
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structured, but it definitely there was always math, there was always science, there was always history kind of a deal
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like she she was like, "Okay, we do need some kind of a school room setting." But
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you brought up uh Little House on the Prairie and I remember those books. I was also like a voracious reader and
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reading I think I read all those books in a week. It was like a book a day kind of a deal. Um, and I just devoured
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books. And so to your point of like, you know, your your mom would hand you a book and say, "Oh, you just only need to
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read this section and this section, right?" Um, and you were like, "I'll
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just read the whole thing." >> That was how I was, too. It was just hand me a textbook, hand me whatever.
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Like, I'll just read the whole thing. It's not a big deal. I got fast at it.
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Also, the more you read, the faster you get, right? So, it's like even today,
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it's like I just can devour books if necessary. So, I definitely resonate and
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I know there are people who have been on the show and listen that will resonate with different parts of your story
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because it just it again we have those weird connection points and like we talk about a lot on the show of like I think
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homeschoolers can kind of smell and sniff out other homeschoolers. Uh like I said at the beginning, I didn't know you
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were a homeschool kid uh until literally this morning. Uh but I had this like gut
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feeling that it was like maybe true. I was like, I think it's possible that DL
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is a homeschooled kid, but I don't know for sure. >> Um, so, so thank you for sharing that.
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I'm curious the role that like maybe Focus on the Family, Adventures and Odyssey, because that's primarily what
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we're going to talk about today, like played in your homeschool life because I
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know for for my family, we waited every week for like the new Adventures and Odyssey episode was dropping, I don't
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know, Saturday, Sunday night, something like that. and we would like we were prepped. We were ready. That was like on
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the calendar and there was no moving it, you know, we knew that that was coming.
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Uh and as far Focus on the Family was on the radio non-stop. It just felt like that was the show we listened to every
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day at lunch. Uh kind of a thing. And so I'm curious kind of what role Focus on
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the Family played in your upbringing. Obviously >> religious family, pastor kid,
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>> you know, what what what was their role in your life? >> Yeah. So focus on the family for people
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who don't know it's this organization started by James Dobson I believe in was
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it 1977 and you know the whole thing is helping parents helping families you know grow godly children godly families
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all that stuff. So if you were religiously homeschooled you probably had some connection with the work of
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James Dobson. We already mentioned the strong willed child. He became super famous because he wrote these two books.
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One was published in 1970 was called Dare to Discipline. And basically he made the case that people like Fred
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Rogers, these permissive parenting experts were ruining America. Um, and we needed to go back to the Christian
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method of disciplining your children, including, you know, using corporal punishment, spanking your toddlers every
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time they asserted their will. That was his whole thing. That sold millions of copies. Um, and then in 1977 he
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published his second book, The Strongwilled Child, which was like, "Hey, this is for the kids that even if
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you spank them a bunch, they still disobey you. Here's what you do." And
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basically, he just says, "Spank them more. Um, try and control them more."
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And so eventually, Focus on the Family, they did get more into education, I think. Now, I'm not an expert in this
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part at all, but to me, Dobson became more and more outspoken against public schools. He he always was kind of, but
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he got more and more that way and eventually did become a huge person talking about parental rights and like
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how important it is. And the weird thing is when you look at Dobson and all the things he was against, right? He was
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against even though he himself was a public school teacher um in the beginning, he was against public school,
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he was against therapy, he was against social workers. Um basically all of these people who are mandatory reporters
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and could be involved in helping a child if they were in abusive situation. So if you kind of
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just take a big step back, Dobson really sowed distrust and mistrust of anybody that could possibly
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be someone who reported abuse if I'm being perfectly honest. I don't I don't
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think that's the entirety of the picture, but that's certainly a part of
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the picture of what Focus on the Family and James Dobson was doing. My mom used to write for Focus on the Family
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magazine. Um, I had an older brother who died in a car accident and he was autistic, which in the 80s that was like
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hardly a thing. And so my mom wrote a lot about autism for Focus on the Family. Her facts were totally wrong.
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You know, she believed it was caused by vaccines. And she also wrote often about
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how in heaven my brother was cured, right? And no longer autistic. And she couldn't wait to get to heaven to meet.
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So, not a fun legacy of looking up my mom's writings for Focus on the Family,
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but she was kind of in the Christian publishing world a little bit. And then, of course, we did listen to Adventures
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and Odyssey, um, especially on Family Vacations. And that was a program put out by Focus on the Family for Kids,
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like a audio radio drama. Now, I have to say this for all the Christian homeschoolers listening. Um, yes,
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Adventures on Odyssey has great production quality compared to like a lot of Gri Media. I
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agree with you there. It's a steaming pile of dog [ __ ] And just so I'm just
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preparing you for what I'm going to be talking about Adventures of Odyssey going forward.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I just do that to rip off the band-aid because for a lot of
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homeschooled kids, Adventures and Odyssey is one of the pieces of media they do not want to interrogate. They do
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not want to think about and they do not want it to be ruined. And I totally respect that. I honor that. It's a
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product of James Dobson. So, you gotta interrogate it because that man was a problem. So, I guess that's that's how
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I'll say it. I think it's so interesting that you say that because yeah, I I agree. Adventures
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and Odyssey like the best quality and it got me. I work in podcasting podcast world. I love radio theater. I wanted to
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work in the music industry. Like it it is a big chunk of >> me wanting to work in the audio arena.
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And so I think that's also part of the reason it's hard for me to even like
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want to have you on to to ruin it because I'm like it is this thing that even though I can tell myself in my head
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I'm like okay yeah it's a Dobson thing. I know Dobson's not that great. You know
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it's like it is a very tough piece you know. I think we do this a lot with Veggie Tales as well. It's another one
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of those things that it's like I don't want it ruined because I have fond
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memories of it right and I need something to hold on to >> there as well. Um, but let's ruin it.
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Let's >> Should we >> Let's do it. >> Should we ruin everyone's relationship
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with this precious piece of their child? >> I think we should. And I I also, you and
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I were chatting a little bit before we hit record. Like, I've been to the Focus
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on the Family campus in Colorado Springs. Is it Colorado Springs or in Denver? >> Um,
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>> and tooured it. They have an Adventures and Odyssey section. They have a Wits
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End. So, for anyone who hasn't listened to Adventures of Odyssey, it all centers
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on >> Wits End, one building, and it's like a soda parlor shop basically that is
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designed for kids to come and have fun and drink a soda. And um I'm sure you'll
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get into more of of some of the storytelling, but um but they have this thing and and even as a kid, I remember
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going and being like, "This is so cool." And this is like it just I don't know.
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Oh, he did such a good job of of inventing this story that I think appealed to kids and kind of the
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imagination of of wanting to run free uh and tell Bible stories. But we're going
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to ruin that and that's okay. I'm I'm here. I'm going to hold anyone anyone
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who's listening who's scared like I am like I'm going to hold your hand. We're
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doing this together. >> Deal. >> Ruin it for us. >> Should we jump in?
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>> Yes. >> I'm I'm holding your hand too, everyone. Just so you know, this is not exactly
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fun for me, but I think the next I mean the present moment and the next couple of years is just going to sort of
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validate the fact that we need to rethink a lot of things in pop culture and the messages they were telling kids.
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And um so if I can just jump into the backstory because it's pretty important.
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I became obsessed with James Dobson a few years ago. And as an autistic person, I get random obsessions that I
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must follow through. It's just a part of being me, you know. So, I've had my
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obsessions with like radical Catholic anarchist Dorothy Day. Well, I started getting into James Dobson because I was
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learning about fascism and Christian fascism in particular. This was about four or five years ago. Uh I was pretty
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worried about some patterns I was seeing in the United States and I read this book called the mass psychology of
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fascism written in 1933. So right after Hitler got all his power um by a man named William Reich and the way he
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described fascism how it's essential that it's modeled in the family first so
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then it can be replicated as a society which is why fascists focus on the family. That's what he said.
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They're obsessed with policing and controlling gender and sexuality. They're obsessed with a patriarchal
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hierarchy being implemented in the home. They're obsessed with appealing to hierarchy and authority as God's way,
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right? So that must be again implemented in the home. Then you can implement that
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in society. And oh my god, as I was reading, I was like, this sounds like focus on the
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family, you know, in America. Like what? And I read a few other books, including
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one by Alice Miller called For Your Own Good. And it looked at the German Christian parenting methodologies of the
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17, 18, 1900s and how they paved the way for an authoritarian leader in Hitler. And everything in those parenting books,
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I was like, "Wait a minute, this sounds like Dobson, but like in Germany in the
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1800s." But it was all so similar, including the obsession with corporal punishment and the obsession with
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patriarchal hierarchy and appealing to God, right, as the ultimate patriarchal hierarchy. And that's how you get
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everybody to kind of submit. So I was like, damn, this sounds a lot like Dobson. So I started rereading a bunch
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of Dobson books, a bunch of other evangelical parenting books because Dobson wasn't the only one. I'm sure
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people listening there's there's even more extreme like corporal punishment folks in these
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worlds. That includes like Michael and Debbie Pearl. Um that includes the Ezos. That includes Oh my god, I can't even
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think of all the names. But comparatively, Dobson is actually better than some of these Christian parenting
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experts, especially ones that came after him who kind of copycatted him but went
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even more intense. It's like the whole blank blanket training thing, you know,
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where you smack a baby's hand every time they try and leave a blanket. Like it's
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it's just sadism. Honestly, even Dobson when you read his books, you're like,
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man, he's kind of a sadist. If you don't believe me, it's just like read his
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book, The Strongwilled Child. In the introduction, he tells this hilarious story about his little um his little
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dog, a little wiener dog who wouldn't obey him. and they got into this huge altercation. He took off his belt. He
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said he was like beating this dog, you know, over and over and over again until finally he broke the dog's spirit and
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that dog never disobeyed him again. He's like, and that's why you should read my
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book about breaking the will of your strong willed child. And I'm just like,
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this is animal abuse. Um, you're a six- foot tall man. you have this tiny little dog and you think
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this is such a great story, but anybody with empathy, compassion, anything would
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be likeay. So, I think it's really hard to read some of these materials to go
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back and be like, if your parent read that and was like, "This is great."
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That's a red flag, yo. I mean, it really is. There is many opportunities for
00:21:15
parents to read and be like, "This seems unnecessarily cruel." Dobson also was
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obsessed with viewing children and toddlers as adults who have willful defiance and sin
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that must be beaten out of them. And I think that's just such a terrifying thing for a parent to
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believe. I'm a parent myself. And I think that is what really radicalized me
00:21:40
and eventually caused me to leave the faith is I can't treat my kids that way.
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And it's really sad that that is a core component of how my parents viewed me.
00:21:48
Now, Dobson got his start working for a man named Paul Popo, who was a very well-known eugenicist and white
00:21:57
supremacist. And he's actually the father of modern marriage counseling. Um, he pioneered this whole column
00:22:04
called Can This Marriage Be Saved? in the Ladies Home Journal. He started this center in Los Angeles for counseling
00:22:10
families. Now, he was only counseling white families and he was super into eugenics. He was super into Hitler,
00:22:18
super into Third Reich. They loved him. They used his policies to like promote the force sterilization of people in
00:22:25
Nazi Germany. He was like, "Cal needs to do this." He was trying to get
00:22:29
California to do it. Well, after, you know, World War II was over and America was like, "Oh, you can't be like openly
00:22:36
supportive of eugen eugenicist policies." So, he was like, "Okay, then
00:22:43
let's do positive eugenics since the white race is dying out. Um, let's help
00:22:48
white women marry white men and stay married, have children, and indoctrinate their children, right, into replicating
00:22:57
their values." So that's where Dobson got his start. He worked for Paul Popono
00:23:01
for 10 years. He was a lecturer. He was an assistant. He did all this stuff. He's tried to really he tried to really
00:23:09
hide this part of his history, but um he was deeply deeply involved. And in fact, the the center he worked with with
00:23:18
Popo, the year it shut down, the year Popo retired is the year Dobson started Focus on the Family. And he actually
00:23:25
modeled Focus on the Family after Popo's organization of a positive eugenic center, helping white women marry white
00:23:32
men, having a lot of children, and indoctrinating those children into the principles. So if that sounds familiar,
00:23:37
it's like, hey, that's what it is. So this is like harsh truth number one is
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if you were born into a family that utilized these principles you were born into a positive eugenics movement which
00:23:50
is a white supremacist movement and it's obsessed with the patriarchy and that's
00:23:55
why it's obsessed with patriarchal religion in this case Christianity. So that's the basis we have to know before
00:24:02
we get to talk about adventures of honesty. Anything you want to say Jacob? I um you know it's so interesting you
00:24:09
you did an episode on your podcast about this and I remember listening to it and
00:24:13
I was out on a walk and I listened to you talk specifically about this and I was like so J so I I pause the episode
00:24:22
and I just say out loud so James Dobson trained by a Nazi and I was like that's
00:24:29
a wild thing to say in 2026 and I think I had listened to this right around the time that he died. So maybe maybe 20 25.
00:24:38
And I and I just started crying and I was just >> that that's the thing about I think
00:24:44
deconstruction and and now being a decade out from childhood so to speak uh past the decade out from childhood and
00:24:54
and starting to look back at a lot of these things that were just normal in our everyday lives. And you know there
00:25:01
you could there will be people who argue well there was good stuff and focus on the family. Well, yeah, they're sure.
00:25:06
Okay. But where does it all stem from? And I think that's that's the part that
00:25:12
was very it took me a long time, I think, to sit in that like uncomfortable nature of that and be like, "Okay, this
00:25:18
was bad." And so, again, when we're talking about Adventures and Odyssey and
00:25:22
like not wanting to destroy that, it's because it's comfortable. It's because
00:25:25
like I have fond memories of it and I have good memories of it and I think it taught me some good life lessons mixed
00:25:31
in with some bad. But like when you look at the history of where does all of this
00:25:36
stem from and it all comes back to Nazi propaganda and Nazi teachings like holy crap. Like that I want to say no to
00:25:45
that. I grew up believing the Nazis were bad. You know what I mean? And so it is
00:25:49
a little bit uncomfortable. That's I think all I'm going to say about that.
00:25:52
But let's get into Adventures and Odyssey. So what's what's the next step
00:25:56
here? >> Yeah. So then sorry this is another deep dive. Um, so this was my original
00:26:02
thesis. This is why we started the strong willed project is because I was like, "Hey, I think one of the reasons
00:26:09
America voted for a legit authoritarian um, and authoritarian policies is because I
00:26:17
think people have been trained from birth for the past five decades to embrace this as God's plan." Right? So I
00:26:25
think Dr. Dr. Dobson was a child psychologist. He knew the research. Um, and I think he intentionally was helping
00:26:32
people stunt their children's development so they would stay in the fold. They would be very good little
00:26:38
authoritarian followers if I'm being perfectly honest. Right? So that was my
00:26:43
whole thesis. Dobson needs to be explored. His parenting methods, his ideologies, they all need to be explored
00:26:48
because hey, the US is slipping into fascism. Now my thesis changed in the past few years because the more I
00:26:57
studied Dobson I now have a slightly different theory which does we I mean it involves inventions odyssey so we'll
00:27:04
talk about it here one of the things Dobson talked about over and over again was you know keeping kids safe
00:27:10
supposedly he has this whole book called children at risk and it's like here's
00:27:15
where children are at risk uh they're at risk because of public schools you know
00:27:19
teaching secularism teaching humanism They're at risk because people are being
00:27:24
visibly gay every once in a while. Like, oh my god, they're at risk because feminists, right, taking over
00:27:30
everything. They're at risk because of drugs. He loved talking about drugs. He
00:27:34
loved like having an index with like 400 slang terms for drugs. So, if you want a
00:27:39
good laugh, you can just go see the slang terms that Dobson was into um about drugs. They're very funny. But he
00:27:47
never actually addressed what was really harming kids, which is this pervasive abuse of children within Christian
00:27:57
families and you know outside of it as well. So he talked a lot about the evils of pornography. This was also a staple
00:28:03
of focus on the family. I know this topic can be kind of triggering for folks. So I'm just going to give some
00:28:08
broad strokes. The reason I started researching this is because Dobson would not shut up about the fact
00:28:16
that he was on a presidential commission in 1985 called the ME Commission on Pornography where he was one of 11
00:28:23
commissioners for a whole year. They just talked about pornography and was it, you know, was it contributing to
00:28:32
violence? Like should it be illegal or not? You know, all this stuff. and he just loved to talk about his time, how
00:28:39
it was so horrible and he just did it for the people and you know so I actually went and studied the me
00:28:47
commission. I studied the lectures they heard. I read the transcripts of the experts they heard from and the truth
00:28:53
was in 19 1984 is when child pornography was finally made illegal. So this was the next year and so a huge portion of
00:29:03
the discussion for that year was talking about child pornography, who makes it, um how to stop it, how to prosecute it,
00:29:13
how to you know all this stuff. So it was a huge huge issue and everything Dobson learned in his year on that
00:29:20
commission. He did not take that information and share it with his wide audience of families with kids. I find
00:29:29
that very troubling partly because the information he was hearing over and over and over again from the FBI, from social
00:29:36
workers, from all these experts in child protection at the time, they said over and over again, "It's not the man in the
00:29:43
trench coat you should be worried about. It's not the stranger danger." Okay?
00:29:48
Society likes those narratives because we cannot deal with the reality, which is the vast majority. I and even this
00:29:56
was true in 1985 and it's somewhat similar to today. 99% of child sexual assault materials are
00:30:04
made by a a child's family member. Overwhelmingly the child's father then
00:30:11
the stepfather. And then a smaller population of of offenders are people who are what they
00:30:18
call acquaintance molesters. So like pillars of the community, a coach, a pastor, you know, a volunteer somewhere.
00:30:25
So that was it. So they had even people like Mitch McConnell testifying in front
00:30:30
of Dobson and others saying like actually the profile of a child molester is a middle-aged white man married in
00:30:39
some kind of position of authority, some kind of pillar of the community. And the
00:30:44
reason we need to focus on them and talk about them is because they are repeat offenders. They are five times more
00:30:51
likely than any other kind of criminal to repeat their crimes, which is sexually abusing and sexually exploiting
00:30:59
children. So people are really up like intense about this topic because personal computers were just starting to
00:31:06
become a thing. The FBI was like, "This has a potential to be really bad because
00:31:11
pedophiles love to find each other. They love to share materials. They love to share images. Like, this could actually
00:31:17
get way worse. So, we really need to talk about this. One of the other things I discovered was
00:31:22
that Dobson was like the conservative Christian on this commission. There was also a Catholic priest named Father
00:31:29
Bruce Ritter on the commission. Him and Dobson both, right, hate pornography. They want all of it outlawed.
00:31:35
Um well the year after this commission it comes out that father Bruce Ritter himself was a pedophile and he had been
00:31:41
accused of molesting I believe at least 14 people including children that he helped house in this home he started for
00:31:50
Wayward Youth in Times Square. Um he was sexually abusing them at the same time.
00:31:55
Right yet here he was on this commission saying all of this is bad. Only Christians have the moral, you know, the
00:32:02
moral capacity to say this is all bad. So that happened. This is important because Dobson served on the commission
00:32:09
1985. 1986 his buddy Bruce Ritter is outed as a serial child pedophile. Um he never faced any consequences by the way.
00:32:16
He just uh retired and went to live in a farm for priests um in upstate New York.
00:32:22
>> I mean why would we why would we why would we prosecute any of these people?
00:32:25
That's that's the thing I've been so interested in realizing recently, and I
00:32:30
know I'm gonna totally derail what you were saying, but is just the fact that
00:32:36
over and over and over again, we see that the statistics point to church leaders. They point to
00:32:42
pillars of the community like you were saying, right? >> And yet a lot of those those men, they
00:32:47
are they're church-going people, right? And then there's the forgiveness
00:32:52
movement of >> you know there was there is no consequences to their actions and we see
00:32:56
it repeated again and again and again. We see it with the recent conversion of of highprofile people like Russell Brand
00:33:04
right who gets he right he's convicted or he he's accused of sexual abuse and
00:33:10
then what does he do? I'm a Christian. Guess what? I'm all good. I'm washed in
00:33:14
the blood of the lamb. Like I'm good. And what do we do in the Christian world? We continually prop him up. We
00:33:20
put him as a speaker at these events to tell his testimony of coming his come to
00:33:25
Jesus moment. There is no consequences for his actions. There is only let's just continue to pay this man buu
00:33:32
dollars uh and prop him up as a leader of this movement. It's just really bizarre to me and I don't understand
00:33:39
why that is. Like I and and again it's something I'm deep diving on now more so
00:33:44
because I fall into that category. I'm a straight white guy. I grew up in a lot
00:33:48
of this, too. I'm trained to just wash away and and be okay with when other white guys just do bad [ __ ] right? We
00:33:56
It's okay. They're, you know, they're messed up person, you know, and it's
00:33:59
like that's not the reality. There's consequences to our actions. So, >> my aside, I'm sorry, but
00:34:05
>> I think that's great because let me just take it back again to the parenting
00:34:09
methods many of us who were homeschooled or raised with, right, is corporal punishment. Um, and again going based
00:34:16
off of what Dobson said, there was no forgiveness of sins for a two-year-old who's saying no to their parent. It's
00:34:22
they get consequences, physical consequences. They must say sorry. They must feel pain. They must cry to be
00:34:29
resol, you know, absolved. And yet we see men, you know, they're forgiven when
00:34:35
kids are not even forgiven in these systems. So like once you can kind of see the power dynamics at work, you can
00:34:40
see it for the charade that it is. And I just think like my most recent post is on the forgiveness clause and how that
00:34:49
enables abusers to get away with their crimes because the two things uh so again obsessing about Dobson means I now
00:34:57
know way more about serial child predators than I ever wanted to know and because of studying the ME commission
00:35:03
they said the two things a serial child predator is always looking for is they're always looking for a steady
00:35:09
supply of children right access to victim And they're also looking for ways to get away with their crimes, right? To
00:35:16
not be held accountable. Now, they find that in patriarch patriarchal Christian spaces because those spaces are geared,
00:35:25
right, to elevate the man, to elevate a Christian. Even in 1985 on the ME commission, they're talking about
00:35:31
there's all these studies like if a man was even convicted of crimes against
00:35:37
children, which rarely happens, if he was a Christian and if he had community members testify to his good character,
00:35:46
um the judge would just give the most lenient, you know, sentence available, right? Then so even in 808 85 they were
00:35:53
saying people are saying they're Christians and saying they're pillars of
00:35:56
the community to get away with their crimes and like we need to know this is the profile of a predator. It's not this
00:36:04
creepy weirdo in the park. It's it's the businessman with all his friends. And
00:36:08
going back to father Bruce Ritter, he started this house, the Covenant House for runaway youth. He ended up abusing
00:36:14
youth in there, but he stacked his board with like a who's who of like New Yorkers, right? of powerful New Yorkers.
00:36:22
And that was one of the reasons why he escaped all accountability is because all of these powerful people were like,
00:36:29
you know, he's our bud. We're not going to do anything about it. So these are
00:36:32
all the systems at play that keep predators safe while making sure children are not
00:36:40
seen and not heard and their abuse is not taken seriously. I think this is still obviously a huge deal in 2026. We
00:36:47
have Epstein, we have all this [ __ ] going on. Um, even with AI just it it there's so many issues when it comes to
00:36:54
this sexual exploitation of children. And in conservative Christian world, in homeschooling world, it's like no, that
00:37:00
doesn't happen. That doesn't happen in Christian families. Um, we're all very
00:37:04
anti this stuff. But the thing is, Dobson heard all that material. Plus, he had this experience with Father Bruce
00:37:10
Ritter. And what does he do the very next year? He creates a children's program centered around a man in his 50s
00:37:19
or 60s um who has an ice cream soda parlor for children, right? Where he interacts with children constantly and
00:37:27
he also indoctrinates them into Christianity and like revisionist history, right? Parents are pretty
00:37:34
peripheral in Odyssey world. I think we can all sort of agree to that. Um and Wit is like the
00:37:43
the prototype of a man who has made himself a pillar of the community so that even if you
00:37:51
know allegations surfaced every single person would be on his side right so not so he's rich he um I don't
00:38:00
even know all the things that he does right but he teaches at the school sometimes he um is ahead of like the
00:38:06
business things he gets like Pride Parade shut down. Like he knows everyone. And one of the weird themes
00:38:13
about Adventures in Odyssey is like most of the time the kids are wrong, right? The kids are wrong and they need the
00:38:23
guidance of Mr. Whitaker to know what to do or their parents or their church, but
00:38:28
usually it's Mr. Whitaker, right? Has the wisdom. Even setting up a show like
00:38:33
that, I believe, is irresponsible, right? But this is like the bread and butter of evangelical Christianity. Kids
00:38:39
are wrong. Kids are wrong. Kids are wrong. Like they need help. They need wisdom. They need guidance from God and
00:38:46
therefore from a person like Mr. Whitaker who says God speaks directly through him, which again is sort of a
00:38:52
batshit like claim to make and to promote to kids. So again, what the experts were telling Dobson is you need
00:39:00
to share the information about who is most likely to hurt kids. he actually went and did the exact opposite. And I
00:39:07
think hopefully in 2026, we can see how serial child predators are very interested in shaping the culture to
00:39:15
make it easier for them to get away with their crimes. And I think that is at least a part of what was going on with
00:39:22
the creation of Adventures in Odyssey. What do you think, Jacob? Do you think I'm way out out of left field?
00:39:29
>> I don't think you're out of left field. I definitely as you explain it right of of and I'm
00:39:34
thinking back to listening to Adventures in Odyssey and thinking about those like
00:39:39
who is the who are the people responsible right and so and who are the people we're turning to when things go
00:39:45
arai I'm thinking specifically of an episode and I remember a kid Mr. Whitaker tells him, "Don't go in the
00:39:51
imagination station," which is his like uh basically machine that takes you
00:39:56
anywhere in the world, right? To any historical moment. It takes you to um it takes you to a Bible story or a lot of
00:40:04
different things, but he tells him not to go in it. Kid does it anyways cuz he just wants to. And then there's some
00:40:09
kind of consequences down the line. And I remember like I mean I'm thinking about applying that to my own life and
00:40:17
looking at the people I trusted and just like explicitly trusted and they were the leadership in my life. Not only my
00:40:24
parents, my youth pastors, my pastors, you know, uh specifically a lot of times men who were older than me, just
00:40:31
trusting them with whatever. Why would they why would they steer me wrong, right? They're a trusted member of my
00:40:38
community. They're a trusted member of my church. Why would I ever think that
00:40:42
they would do anything wrong? And then I think about the men that did do things that made me uncomfortable or did and
00:40:49
not wanting to talk about it because well, why would this person hurt me, right? It's that it's and wanting to be
00:40:55
silent about it. And it wasn't until much later that I finally was like this
00:40:59
was [ __ ] weird, right? The way that this dad would hug us, the way that this parent would do this or say this or felt
00:41:06
like they had this authority of that's [ __ ] weird, right? And and it was and I'm not the only one who
00:41:14
felt that way. When I started talking to my friends, I realized I'm not alone in
00:41:18
this. And I think that's it's getting to the point of what you were saying is
00:41:23
like for most of our childhood, especially those of us raised with a lot of the focus on the family values.
00:41:30
I think there is kind of this understanding that when you step out of line, you get in trouble. you get you
00:41:36
get the wooden spoon, you get the spanking, you get what that whatever. And even as an adult, I was still living
00:41:42
under kind of that feeling of like, well, if I step out of line, if I get if I make it uncomfortable at all for
00:41:48
anybody else who's in authority over me, because my parents are still in authority over me,
00:41:54
I'm going to get hurt somehow. I'm going to get ostracized. I'm going to get
00:41:58
kicked out of my community. I'm going to whatever >> the punishment is, that's going to
00:42:03
happen to me. Um, and so I think it's I think again it continues to stem this
00:42:07
idea of authoritarianism and why we're so comfortable with it because it's like
00:42:11
why would the people who are in charge want to hurt us because sometimes they just [ __ ] do,
00:42:17
you know? That's just their their reason. So anyway, I'm with you. It's
00:42:23
hard to hear. It's hard to hear to be honest. >> I agree. just like thinking about like
00:42:28
the Trump administration, the policies that are hurting so many people and you know we keep hearing this refrain from
00:42:33
because the media is obsessed with asking people who voted for Trump how they feel about it and some you know
00:42:39
people especially from various immigrant communities being like you know I just didn't think he'd come after us right
00:42:46
>> and you know I just think that's it's just a sad reality that people are
00:42:51
starting to understand I think for me being a parent really helped me deconstruct
00:42:58
a lot of this because as my kids got older, it's like I definitely do not want to teach them that if a man says he
00:43:07
is a Christian, you should trust him and you should do what he says. Like hell no. Like I'm I was still very much a
00:43:15
Christian and I was like yikes. That's a recipe for abuse if you ask me. And this
00:43:21
was way before I had really unpacked a lot of it. And >> I think again just going back to that
00:43:27
like why would you teach your kid that at this point you need to teach your kid like first of all just some really
00:43:34
basics of uh consent and bodily autonomy and that you you know can and should say
00:43:41
no to unsafe and unwanted touches like on your body. That's just the baseline.
00:43:46
Now Dobson never taught that and in fact he taught the opposite. He taught parents you have to hurt your children
00:43:54
physically, right? Um, in order to get them to become Christians and to obey God and to, you know, have a good life
00:44:02
or whatever. So I'm like Dobson already is setting the groundwork for kids who
00:44:09
have no concept of consent and will not say no and actually will even believe that they deserve or need right this
00:44:18
kind of abuse in order to make them good or you know it just it gets so sticky so
00:44:24
fast and again knowing that he was a child psychologist to me it makes it even more horrifying
00:44:30
>> that he knew all of this he worked at a children's hospital. He s I know he saw
00:44:35
case after case after case of horrific abuse against children. And what does he go and do? He says, "Guess what? You
00:44:42
should trust every Christian man in your life. And you need to be on the lookout
00:44:47
for queer people and feminists because they're going to hurt your kids." That
00:44:52
is not true. >> Yeah. I think it's so interesting that you bring that up because I think I
00:44:58
think that a part of what made him I think so credible in the space is that he had the doctor element to it. Yeah.
00:45:07
>> He did the training. He went to school. He did the time, right? And so >> again, it's that it it plays into that
00:45:14
whole trusting that person who has the authority. They've taken the time. They
00:45:19
whatever they have the letters in front of their name. And so I think but as we've come to find out, he's taking the
00:45:26
information he's given and he's just tossing it in the bin and saying, "No,
00:45:29
that can't be it. We're going to do these other studies. We're going to or
00:45:31
I'm going to point to this other direction." And I see that a lot to bring back to the homeschool community.
00:45:38
We see that a lot in the homeschool community. I remember as a kid continually being told homeschoolers are
00:45:43
smarter. We get into colleges a lot easier. We get through college a lot faster than other people. we end up with
00:45:50
higher paying jobs. All of these things. And as a as now as an adult, um I I go and I research those studies. Where did
00:45:58
this come from? And I realize it's not true. It's all fabricated or twisted
00:46:04
version of that information that has been paid for by pro homeschool movements. And unfortunately, Dobson was
00:46:13
doing very similar things uh with especially the stuff around child abuse and taking those numbers and skewing
00:46:19
them or just hiding them altogether. Um yeah, it's unfortunate to to say the
00:46:25
least. >> Yeah. And you know, again, I just keep going back to like as I've read other
00:46:30
people, sociologists, um, psychologists who talk about, you know, one of the most taboo subjects
00:46:38
is the prevalence of incest that happens in families. It's much higher than anyone wants to believe. This has been
00:46:47
an issue for a long time. I mean, Sigman Freud, right? Like, he had this whole thing where he he listened to his female
00:46:55
patients who were hysterical and every single one of them disclosed that they were sexually abused by their father or
00:47:02
one of their father's friends. And so he was like, "Wow, so this causes
00:47:08
hysteria, right? And this is happening so much and especially in the bourgeoisi, right?" And so he was like,
00:47:16
"I can't believe this." But then he got scared and he like rescended his paper
00:47:22
on the subject and he instead was like I think these women are sexually attracted
00:47:28
to their fathers and so they made up these stories because secretly subconsciously they want to have sex
00:47:35
with these men and that's leading to all this problem. So that is horrifying
00:47:41
right that's just like the and that's the basis of modern psychotherapy right
00:47:46
there. these women made it up because secretly they kind of want to have this relationship with their dad. Like I
00:47:54
can't express you how awful that is. And I think it's good to bring that up just
00:47:58
like this is not just a Christian issue. This is like a >> horrible men protecting horrible men
00:48:05
because Frick was basically like if this is true then like the people propping up
00:48:11
society in Vienna are all child molesters. Um, that can't be true. I just refuse to
00:48:19
believe it. These women were making it up. How does that sound in 2026 as we learn more and more about Epstein and
00:48:25
the connections politically, economically, socially, and what? It's in media, it's in entertainment, it's in
00:48:32
business, it's in politics. Like, this really is a thing that happens that we
00:48:38
must be talking about. Now, Dobson isn't like Dobson wasn't flying to Jeffrey
00:48:46
Epstein's island. You know what I mean? Like, that's not what was happening. But
00:48:51
Dobson was creating the conditions where a serial child predator could probably get away with his crimes if he was in
00:49:00
these kinds of communities and would have access to children, possibly even his own children could do this. And then
00:49:07
there's multiple ways where the child will not disclose for so many reasons.
00:49:12
But that's another thing is Dobson never told people to report abuse to authorities. Instead, like I mentioned,
00:49:20
he told people to homeschool their kids, right, where nobody would be able to know and see, to distrust all therapy
00:49:28
and therapists, unless it was like a Bible-based therapist. um like all of these places where you a child would
00:49:37
maybe like have a concerned adult intervene. Do was like no don't do that. I just think about focus on the family
00:49:45
has this hotline, a crisis hotline, and I don't know how to get this information, but I'm just curious like
00:49:50
how many people have called in, disclosed abuse, and I wonder what Focus on the Family tells them because in none
00:49:58
of Dobson's materials does he tell people to disclose that abuse to the proper authorities. Um, and in fact, in
00:50:05
his purity culture books and things like that, he often says things like, you know,
00:50:11
um, a father's not really supposed to notice when his 14 or 15year-old, right,
00:50:15
is developed as a woman, but he does. And it's usually quite innocent. And, you know, he just throws out things like
00:50:22
that over and over and over again. He sexualizes kids constantly in his writing. And in fact, most purity
00:50:28
culture authors do. That's just the sad truth. Purity culture gives them an excuse to talk about kids, uh, tween and
00:50:35
teens as sexual beings and to have lots of conversations with kids and teenagers
00:50:40
about their sexuality, which in of itself is is quite creepy if you ask me. Um, there's just all these things that
00:50:47
add up to these communities are obsessed with the sexuality of children. They're
00:50:53
also obsessed with this belief that men can't control themselves. I don't know
00:50:56
if you grew up with this at all, Jacob, being a >> I was going to bring this up actually. I
00:51:00
was going to bring this up because what you're saying I'm so thankful my my
00:51:04
parents are not perfect but I'm so thankful for my dad in this one circumstance and that is that growing up
00:51:10
in Southern California you go to the beach a lot who are at the beach people in bathing suits women in bikinis
00:51:17
totally fine as a young man I remember especially hitting puberty ages and sexual urges are starting to happen and
00:51:24
you know that messaging of the uncontrollable lust is is coming in >> and It's and I remember my dad taking me
00:51:32
aside at one point and just saying, "Look, you know, sexual feelings are very natural. They're normal. However,
00:51:39
there's there's always context. When we're at the beach, that's not a sexual
00:51:43
environment. So, you don't need to be, you know, those feelings don't need to
00:51:48
be happening because this is not a sexual environment." And that alone, that just like little nugget helped me
00:51:54
so much because while my other friends were like struggling to peel their eyes away or just existing in that world of
00:52:01
being told I am uncontrollable everything I do, it's like it's a monster living inside of me, right? I
00:52:07
think of the show Big Mouth and how they have the hormone monsters that are just
00:52:10
like uncontrollable. if anyone's familiar with that show. But but I didn't I I'm not going to say I didn't
00:52:16
totally have that problem, but I I definitely I started to figure out that it was like there's context to
00:52:22
everything and not everything has to be a sexual moment and I don't especially
00:52:25
don't need to look at for me the opposite sex, but I don't need to look at other people always in a sexual
00:52:32
context. And that I think helped drastically with just my understanding around sexuality and and being a sexual
00:52:39
person because it was just it's it doesn't have to be all the time. It just
00:52:44
it doesn't. But that is the messaging that is continually put in men's brains
00:52:48
in the church of just you are always going to be horny. You are always going to get turned on. You
00:52:54
are always this that and the other. And is your job to fight against it. But not
00:52:58
even that it's your job to fight again against it. It's women's job to not put
00:53:03
you in the position >> Exactly. >> to have to fight against it. >> And so
00:53:08
that again, the more I unpack and the more I learn about my childhood and the purity
00:53:13
culture stuff, I reread I kiss Kiss Dating Goodbye this past year, just like unpacking a lot of that
00:53:21
understanding of of what boys were being taught, what girls were being taught. It's it's really
00:53:28
scary to be honest because it set up an environment where men truly don't have
00:53:34
to take accountability for their for their actions because we are like wild animals, right? And you can't really
00:53:40
hold a wild animal responsible for its actions, right? Because it's just a natural part of who it is.
00:53:46
>> I I choose to disagree. >> I'm sorry. It's not We're not wild
00:53:50
animals. Like we c we can be trained to not uh not react in certain circumstances and to control our
00:53:58
thoughts and things like that. We just don't want to because for whatever reason men have this
00:54:08
desire to be in control. It's the society we've built. It's the patriarchal patriarchal
00:54:14
society we've built of men have to be in control. We have to be the dominating
00:54:18
voice dominating everything. And it's just like it's just [ __ ] It just
00:54:23
really is at the end of the day. I don't know how else to say it. It just is
00:54:26
[ __ ] And the more I learn about it, the more I realize I need to just be okay sometimes with other people taking
00:54:33
the lead on things and let them let them handle it. But anyway, >> yeah. Yeah. No, I think you're you're
00:54:40
right on. So I uh was you know raised and socialized as female and I just remember in youth group that's
00:54:51
primarily where I got the purity culture stuff cuz my parents were pretty hands off on all of that like very neglectful
00:54:58
teaching me nothing about sexed all that stuff but I just remember hearing things
00:55:02
like guys think about sex every seven seconds. I remember being told like, you know, guys can't help it. Um, it's my
00:55:12
job to dress modestly, right? So that not just like the other high schoolers wouldn't stumble, but like so the
00:55:20
pastors wouldn't, which again, that's just an insane thing to put on a child.
00:55:25
Like if you read some of the purity culture books, it's like, you know, make
00:55:30
sure your 12-year-old is wearing a a chamisol tank top underneath her t-shirt so when she raises her hands in worship,
00:55:36
right, you don't see a a slip of midriff, which is tempting to men. I'm like, men,
00:55:44
12year-old like it just why are you normalizing this, you [ __ ] These are female writers,
00:55:52
by the way, writing this stuff. And I'm just like being me. And by the way, I
00:55:58
was autistic, like I said. So, I'm taking all this in. Plus, I'm getting
00:56:02
told that um men have to be the spiritual leaders this entire time while also being told they think about sex
00:56:08
every seven seconds while also being told they're like wild animals and they're less, but they have to be in
00:56:13
charge. Also, if you're gonna date, you should probably court and the guy has to
00:56:16
be the spiritual leader. So, what do you think I did in this situation? And I'm
00:56:20
just like, I'm I can't be with any of these [ __ ] Like, first of all, I knew way
00:56:26
more about the Bible than them. Second of all, all they did was think about sex. Like, I couldn't I couldn't make it
00:56:33
work because it doesn't make sense the way this is set up. And so, I was like,
00:56:37
well, I guess I'll never date then because I cannot reconcile. They have to be the spiritual leader of me. But then
00:56:45
they're just like these little hormone freaks and that's all they think about.
00:56:48
like this is just setting up for predators to get away with their crimes against children and women. That's
00:56:56
really what's at the basis of all of this if I can be perfectly honest. Right. Yes.
00:57:00
>> And I think once you see that, you can just blow right through the [ __ ] of
00:57:04
purity culture. And that's sort of where my thesis ended up is I believe James
00:57:09
Dobson made materials that not only appealed and catered to white supremacists but to serial child predators. And I
00:57:18
think he made it easier for them to get away with their crimes. I actually just recently um wrote about this but his
00:57:25
daughter D. Dobson, she wrote a lot for girls um for Brio magazine. I don't know
00:57:32
if anybody listening remembers Brio magazine. And that was the one for girls as breakaway was for the boys. And um
00:57:39
she wrote this book of like devotionals for teen girls. And in one of the devotionals on forgiveness, she actually
00:57:46
says like, you know, sometimes people do horrible things to you, but since like Jesus has
00:57:53
already forgiven you for your sins, right? There's nothing anybody could do against you that's bigger than that. you
00:58:01
know, you've already sinned against God so much that you must forgive those who
00:58:05
sin against you. And she even says, you know, horrible things could have happened to you. You might even have
00:58:11
been raped by someone close to you, someone in your family. This is what she says.
00:58:18
My advice to you is to give it to God and let it go. And then she said, I remember a pastor of mine told me one
00:58:26
time, you need to put that person who hurt you in Jesus jail. let Jesus take care of him. That's what she says. So,
00:58:33
this is the only time in any of these materials that Dobson put out where I have seen anyone mention the fact that
00:58:39
in Christian families, young girls are being sexually abused by people in their families, right? Including fathers,
00:58:46
including stepfathers. Um, so I was like, whoa, I can't believe she actually
00:58:50
brought that up. But she brings it up to say, you have to forgive and you have to
00:58:56
let it go. No, never does she say report this abuse to anyone, right? It's just
00:59:02
give them to Jesus and he'll sort it out. Which again, this is not what parents are being told with their kids.
00:59:08
They don't put their kids in Jesus jail. No, they spank the [ __ ] out of them till
00:59:13
they cry, right? Like that's for kids, but for men who rape their kids, it's
00:59:19
you put them in Jesus. I'm so sorry to get so intense, but this is the reality.
00:59:24
This is what they are promoting at its core. I think what's so interesting again about that is we see time one of
00:59:31
the things we hear time and time again right the women who come forward on Harvey Weinstein or Jeffrey Epstein well
00:59:38
why did they come home come come forward sooner we have built a world in which what we've been talking about there's
00:59:45
this indoctrination to forgive to forget to put it behind you to all of these things and sometimes it takes years
00:59:51
decades it it takes so long to get to the point where you're finally like this
00:59:56
wasn't Right. And I actually need to talk about it. Like I was mentioning with like uh a homeschool dad who just
01:00:04
made me uncomfortable and not having the body autonomy. And I know this is like nothing compared to what women have been
01:00:11
through, but it's just it's my own experience. As close as I can relate is
01:00:15
the fact of like it made me uncomfortable. I didn't talk about it for years. For a decade of my life, I
01:00:20
never talked about it because I was just like >> nobody's going to listen. It doesn't
01:00:24
really matter. He's in authority over me. And then when I started talking about it and everybody else started
01:00:28
being like, "Yeah, that's [ __ ] weird." Guess what we figured out? That
01:00:32
family is a bunch of [ __ ] weirdos. That's what they do. And while there's
01:00:38
not really anything we can totally do, cuz nothing that was done was illegal, unfortunately. Uh, at least to me, it
01:00:44
it's definitely one of those things that as we continue to point it out and more
01:00:48
and more stories come out, it hopefully raises enough awareness that it's like
01:00:52
other people who had something similar happen to them feel empowered to come forward earlier to say and then also we
01:00:59
can change the narrative in the future uh to to kids to be like, "No, you should talk about these things if this
01:01:06
happens." the consent piece like you were talking about with your own kids of
01:01:09
teaching them consent and to tell to tell us like if if something happens you need to start talking about it. You need
01:01:15
to you know it we need to change the way that we have viewed the world. It is set
01:01:20
up to hide it. It is set up to shame uh people from from talking about it. And it's time it's time to change it. And I
01:01:28
think it is I think it's happening. I don't know how you feel about this. I
01:01:31
wake up every day recently and turn the news on uh which I know is not good to do first thing in the morning but and I
01:01:39
feel sometimes very sad and overwhelmed because I'm like how can we recover from
01:01:43
this and then something sparks in me and I go but we're talking about it and to
01:01:48
me that's a signal that we are headed in the right direction because the more we
01:01:54
talk about it the more it comes to light eventually enough people are going to say this ain't the way to do this
01:02:01
anymore and we're going to change it and we're going to shift the narrative. I
01:02:04
don't know if you feel that way, but I wake up a little bit hopeful every day
01:02:07
that the narrative is going to shift and the way that we're powdering our lives
01:02:10
and the way that we're we're dictating things that's going away. It's it's just
01:02:15
going to take a very long time, unfortunately. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of all over the
01:02:19
map when I think about it. I I think if you know if I could instantly implement one thing to make the world better, I
01:02:29
know exactly what I would say. I would say stop hitting children. You know, like let's try that and see what
01:02:37
happens. I'm pretty sure everything would get better. I mean, Hitler was beat within an inch of his life by his
01:02:43
stepdad and his teachers at school. Trump, I don't even know. His parents were pieces of [ __ ] You know what I
01:02:50
mean? Like this stuff messes up people. And those people then try and consolidate power. And a lot of the
01:02:56
people who voted for Trump were hit as children by their caregivers and taught that that was loving and taught that
01:03:03
obeying is the only way to stay safe and to not get hurt and that there's always
01:03:07
the baddy out there that deserves punishment and once those baddies get punished, you'll feel better. Right? So
01:03:13
this is just authoritarianism. So that's what what keeps me going with the strong
01:03:18
willed project is I personally can't stop people from hurting their children
01:03:24
and replicating patriarchal white supremacist values, you know, into families. But I can be here for other
01:03:32
people who are rethinking their childhoods and showing up for themselves finally. Like I know it sounds cliche,
01:03:40
but reparing yourself is vital for these times. I don't know how to get through
01:03:45
fascism without being very tender to my younger self who still exists within me.
01:03:50
You know, like that's the other thing I kind of want to tell people and this is
01:03:54
this was really hard for me, but like everything that happened to you in childhood actually happened and it does
01:04:02
have impacts. Educational neglect has impacts. Corporal punishment on a child's nervous system, it has impacts.
01:04:10
like developmental delays, if they were intentional or not, which for many homeschooling families, it's absolutely
01:04:17
was intentional to shield you from information and experiences, right, that would cause you to perhaps leave the
01:04:24
fold. Like that has long-term consequences and being able to show up and grieve for yourself and listen to
01:04:31
yourself because exactly what you said. I want people to stop saying, "Why don't
01:04:35
victims come forward?" Because look at Epstein. We haven't had a single arrest
01:04:42
in the United States. I don't think we should ever ask that question again. And
01:04:47
instead, we can say, "How can we create conditions where victims can speak up
01:04:51
and be believed?" Now, if you were homeschooled like me, my parents, oh my god, if I even said like, "Hey, I didn't
01:05:00
love being homeschooled. Like, some of those textbooks were really not great."
01:05:06
like they would respond horribly, right? Because their entire worldview and ideology is connected to that. So they
01:05:13
can't even hear me when I say, "Man, I really wish you guys had told me to go
01:05:18
to college. I came from that kind of family." Just like, "You're a girl.
01:05:23
You don't need to go to college, right? You're just going to serve God." So I
01:05:27
was never told to go to college. Nothing like that. So if I even bring that up to
01:05:32
my parents, they can't hear that. How much less are they going to hear about
01:05:37
abuse? You know what I mean? There's just so many factors built into what we
01:05:42
are calling religious authoritarian homes where the kids cannot be listened to. And again, this starts in infancy
01:05:50
when we have sleep training. You know, ignore your baby's crying to spanking
01:05:54
toddlers. Don't listen to your toddler when they're crying and asking why
01:05:58
mommy's hurting them, why dad's, you know, this refusing to listen to those
01:06:03
with less power is baked into the system. And so the best way and the the best way forward for any of us is to
01:06:10
listen to those who have less power. I think in our society, children obviously need to be listened to. I have a
01:06:17
15-year-old and a 10-year-old and they are pissed at the grown-ups in charge and the world they are
01:06:25
inheriting. Okay? >> They just are because of course the kids are pissed at what the adults are doing
01:06:35
and we need to listen to them. You know, they want to just be able to live their
01:06:39
lives and instead they have to deal with all of this [ __ ] So, I mean, that's
01:06:44
I guess that's my my takeaway piece is listen to the kids in your life, listen
01:06:48
to the youth, and um I guess that's what keeps me going forward. I was like, I do
01:06:53
think we can change if we start prioritizing the rights of children, >> which does not mean parental rights.
01:07:01
>> Yeah. I think in the homeschool world, I know um I I bring this up almost every
01:07:06
episode at this point, but the Coalition for Responsible Home Education is doing
01:07:10
some really cool things. they are almost the opposite of HSLDA. Um, I think that's the best way to describe it. Um,
01:07:18
but they continually put forth >> legislation and and bills and they are actively working to make the voices of
01:07:24
children more heard in the homeschool world. And so I applaud them for what they're doing. Go check them out. If you
01:07:30
haven't checked them out uh to the audience because they're they're great.
01:07:33
Um, DL, is there anything we haven't hit? I also want to give you an opportunity to shout out the Strong
01:07:39
Wield Project, what you guys are doing over there. And um but yeah, is there anything we haven't touched on that's
01:07:45
important? And >> there's so much to say about this. I just think now is the time to I mean, I'm going to
01:07:53
use a Bible college phrase here. Now is the time to have a hermeneutic of suspicion when it comes to white
01:08:00
Christian men. And um just because our so much in our culture has told us to obey them, that
01:08:07
they are wise, that they need to be listened to, I think we can all take a step back and be like, is that actually
01:08:12
true? Um that all deserves some suspicion to me. Um if people are interested, I've done a five-part series
01:08:20
on how purity culture is pedophile culture. I where I go into some of this stuff on the ME commission. We also talk
01:08:27
about like the hallmarks of how serial child predators think. Um, and then we're actually publishing a piece soon
01:08:34
by RL Stler where he talks about how to keep kids kids safe in communities and families. So, just some nice practical
01:08:41
advice. We're going to share the information that James Dobson declined to share with people because unlike him,
01:08:47
we actually do want to keep kids safe um and not just pay lip service to it. You
01:08:52
can check that out. We also have a podcast episode called Purity Culture is Pedophile Culture. Um, that's kind of
01:08:58
like where my obsession has been. I'm currently shifting into some new more creative projects, but my partner Krisen
01:09:05
Mayfield is a therapist. And at Strongworld, we're going to be focusing more on the work he's doing, which is
01:09:11
going through year by year developmentally how some of these religious authoritarian parenting
01:09:17
methods impact the developmental stages and uh some tips and tricks for like how
01:09:22
to heal if you experience some developmental trauma um and developmental delays because that's what
01:09:27
a lot of homeschoolers, you know, we struggle with a little bit, some some developmental delays. So, if if you're
01:09:34
interested in that kind of content, you can check us out at Strongworld. We're
01:09:38
in the process of transitioning from Substack to Ghost, but by the time this goes out, you should just be able to
01:09:44
find Strongwilled at ghost and uh sign up and follow along. And I just want to say to anybody listening,
01:09:52
you are worth investing in. You are worth taking the time to really learn how to be in your body, to feel your
01:10:02
feelings, and to be a full human being. It's never too late to do this work. You
01:10:08
have not missed out on the chance to be who you really are. You don't have to
01:10:13
rush it. No matter what, the most important thing we can do in our lives, I think, is to learn who we are and
01:10:19
learn how to honor that and be true to that. If you were raised like me, your gender, your sexuality, your
01:10:26
preferences, all of that was severely policed. Um, and we don't have to live
01:10:32
under that anymore. Nobody gets to be in our minds except us. So, that's just
01:10:37
something I'll say as someone who was homeschooled and and very very very sheltered. I've really enjoyed enjoyed
01:10:43
being a late bloomer. I came out as non-binary when I was 38. That's the same year I actually left Christianity.
01:10:51
And uh my life has just gotten better and better as I become familiar with who I am, what I like, what I don't like.
01:10:59
And I don't know, it just it's never too late. That's what I want to say.
01:11:04
>> I That's beautiful. That's a beautiful sentiment because I I'm I feel the same
01:11:08
way of like it's never too late. Finding who you are, getting in touch with your
01:11:13
body, your emotions, those kinds of things. Like it is it is one of the best parts of my life currently. And and I'm
01:11:21
not alone in it. I think that's what's great and that's what makes me resonate
01:11:24
with content like what you're doing over at Strong W and some other shows and and
01:11:27
things like that. It's just it's finding other people who are on a different
01:11:32
journey but on kind of a similar path as far same motivations of like wanting to
01:11:37
be a fullfledged human being. >> Yeah. >> In touch with everything. And so I
01:11:41
appreciate you for that. Links of course for everything that DL is doing down below. Check them out. Give it a listen.
01:11:48
give it a read. Go connect. It's It's great. It's been a huge like it's it's not always easy. Like we were
01:11:56
talking about today, like sometimes I'm like I tell my wife, I'm like, "Hold my
01:11:59
hand." Um this is tough. Um but it, you know, it's it's good and it's important.
01:12:04
And so thank you again for what you're doing and thank you for coming on the
01:12:07
show and destroying Adventures and Odyssey for us, but that's okay. Um there are plenty of other things that
01:12:12
can take its take its place. Um >> yeah, Veggie Tails is fine. Okay, I'll
01:12:17
just say that >> I am not I have no interest in >> dissing or interrogating Veggie Tales
01:12:23
because it's pretty great. >> Yeah, >> give people that. >> Yeah, I Yeah, I think I'm kind of in the
01:12:29
same boat. I think that I think the Veggie Tales is pretty good. Um, but yeah, with that to my audience, if you
01:12:35
enjoyed, think about giving us a like, dropping a comment down below, however you're consuming this audio, video,
01:12:41
maybe you're reading the blog, I don't know. Uh, whatever you're doing, leave a
01:12:45
like, leave a leave a subscribe, comment, whatever. You know, all the internet things. You know, you know how
01:12:50
to do. And until we see you next time, peace.