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A lot of times in homeschooling conversations, I don't think we talk enough about the privilege that
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homeschooling [music] truly is. I believe definitionally that someone can be a homeschooler and an unschooler at
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the same [music] time. I think homeschooling is a great choice for some people, but it is again rooted in a in a
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privilege [music] that not everybody has. Anecdotally, we know that homeschoolers tend to, you know, maybe
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have some pretty good outcomes, [music] but homeschoolers also have really bad outcomes. Homeschooling is not is not
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free of abuse and neglect. In 48 states, someone can be convicted of a violent crime against children and still be
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allowed to homeschool their own child. That's an incredible safety risk, especially when the perpetrator is
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likely someone at home. [music] Welcome back to the Ex Homeschoolers Club. I am your host, Jacob Gooden.
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This, if you're [music] new here, this is the place where we talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly of growing
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up a homeschool kid. Today, I'm so blessed to have Tess uh on with me. She is a new exhomie friend and uh we're
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going to talk not only about her experience uh as a homeschool kid, but also about her involvement in a great
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organization called the Coalition for Responsible Home Educators. And uh yeah, but more about that in a little bit. So,
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first and foremost, Tess, welcome to the Ex Homeschoolers Club. This is me granting you your your membership card.
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>> Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Um, I'm really uh really excited to to to
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talk about to talk about an experience that was pivotal for me. Um, I was homeschooled for six out of my 12 years
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of of education. Uh, and now working um at CR, the Coalition for Responsible Home Education, I'm able to really
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center that experience and I'm excited about uh our conversation today and then
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what homeschooling looks like in the future, too. >> Very cool. Yeah. Well, let's let's get
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started with your experience and kind of lay it out for me. I mean, you said it right there. So, six out of 12 years as
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a as a homeschooler. Um, I did a little bit more than that. Um, but uh I'm trying to I think mine was 10 a 10 out
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of the 12 years or something like that. So, uh so you know I got to be a little bit but you know still you still got a
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big flavor for it. So So tell me about your home school experience like was it all the way were the six years all
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together? Were they separated out a little bit? And uh and just walk me through maybe like a day in the life.
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>> Yeah, absolutely. So, I feel like it's always important to homeschool
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conversations to to tell you uh you know where I was in in the United States and
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also where where I am in the family. So, um I was homeschooled I was homeschooled
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um mostly in Michigan. Um and I am the oldest of five of five children. That's
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not unusual um as I as I have more and more um homeschool conversations uh to kind of you know navigate that big
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family that that big family atmosphere. But like I mentioned, I was homeschooled
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in Michigan. Um, homeschooling. I'm gonna date myself a little bit. I was born in 1988, and homeschooling
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actually became legal here in Michigan in 1996. So, I was um I was pulled out of school um right around third grade um
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because my parents were really really dissatisfied with the kind of the condition of of the public school
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system. Uh my my mom talks about how, you know, I was coming home at first I was excited to learn and then I was
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coming home bored. I couldn't tell her what I was doing in class. And you know,
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as a parent and actually with an education background herself, that was I think really really difficult for her to
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see because um as a parent myself now, that's terrible when you see that your
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kids um you know are disinterested and bored and you want to fix that. So my um so at that point I was pulled out of
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school. Um my younger my younger siblings um some of them stayed in school for a little bit longer, but
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ultimately that was kind of the beginning of my family's um homeschool journey. it was right on the edge of
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being legal of of being legal in Michigan. So even though you know seven, eight-year-old tests didn't have that
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much of a recollection of of that. Um it's been an interesting conversation with my parents as adults to figure out
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the the loopholes they they kind of went through and the hurdles they had to they
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had to um overcome because homeschooling was that important to them. And what I will say is that I was homeschooled I
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was homeschooled in Michigan. Um but um I'm an auto industry kid. Michigan. Makes sense, right? Um, and so my family
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actually moved moved around quite a bit. Uh, we moved we moved to Japan and then
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back to the United States and then to Germany and back to the United States. In those other countries, um, Germany is
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a great example of a place where homeschooling is actually completely illegal. So, me coming in and out of the
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school system is also reflective of my place of where I was. Um, as I moved between those school systems, sometimes
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it was, you know, I started in a public school. Um, I went to private school, I went to an international school, and
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then after coming back to the United States, I actually wound up graduating high school. Um, I think I was one of
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the first virtual kind of one of the first virtual high school graduates as well. So, that's a bit of background
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about my my homeschooling experience. Like I said, it moved in and out of different um it moved in and out of
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different systems. And I think that now in my professional career, it's really
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important that I have that um that kind of balance of those of those different education modalities.
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>> That's so interesting about like I I knew that in other countries homeschooling is kind of like yeah,
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borderline illegal or very difficult to get into sometimes. And so um but yeah, I knew in Germany that it it's illegal.
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So I I'm I'm uh I'm a little curious like I mean you had already had some
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public school experience, but like the transition to move to Germany. I mean one as a kid is probably big shift but
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is it then also a huge shift in the education experience to be like okay now I'm in I'm in German school.
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>> Yeah. So it was um I attended international schools which I mean no language barrier those those are in
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English but it is a great opportunity to connect with children who have wildly different experiences. You know
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education modality is not the only it's kind of not the only not the only difference there. going in and out of
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different school systems was always it was always challenging because it's learning it's learning a new set of
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norms. It's learning a new you know a lot of times essentially a new language
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um you know language of education I mean learning learning new social connections
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and and everything everything that comes along with that. So, um, moving in and out was definitely was definitely an
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experience, but I think again it was, um, ultimately valuable because I think it gave me a different understanding of
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homeschooling as well because I was moving in and out of more traditional education systems. Um, I was a little
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bit more familiar, I think, than some of my peers with the idea of things like standardized testing, um, grading, you
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know, all of those things. I know a lot of my peers who went, you know, all the way all the way up through
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homeschooling, some of those were really really foreign concepts. I felt like I at least had a had a baseline
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understanding. I was going to ask you too cuz you mentioned so your mom had a little bit of an education background.
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My mom a little bit similar. She wanted to be high school teacher. And so when it came time for when she started
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homeschooling uh my sister and I I was second grade, second or third grade, and my sister was in kindergarten. But the
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first couple years she really structured it like a more of a traditional school.
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And so um which didn't really didn't really work. We found out pretty quickly. But I'm wondering in your
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experience with with your mom like did she kind of do that or how how did her how did her homeschooling change
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throughout that time too? Also, I mean there there's gaps in there where you're
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going to traditional school and things like that, but how how did that shift? I know at the at the beginning of our
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homeschool journey, it was it was definitely more structured and I think that, you know, relied on some of those
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school room mechanisms um and and performance indicators as I grew up and again with four with four sisters behind
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me um I could see how it's a little bit different for everyone. I think that my
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parents really started to embrace more of the um more of the unschooling kind of theory.
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um you know, I think the more confident they got in homeschooling and um just the more experiences that my family
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gained, I know that my youngest sister's um my youngest sister's homeschool
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experience probably followed unschooling a little bit more than homeschooling. Um
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if I were to really examine how those, you know, how those looked just eight years apart.
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>> And for you, I'm curious because I know people people define homeschool and
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unschool in like all these different ways. So like for you, >> how do you define those terms? For me,
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homeschooling is just any parent-directed education that happens mostly at home. Um, I believe
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definitionally that someone can be a homeschooler and an unschooler at the same at the same time. Um so for me
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unschooling means that you abandon some of those constraints around um I guess assessed grade level um performance
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indicators some of those academic benchmarks that are used with the idea that you know a child can direct that
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themselves rather than the parent directed component of it. Um, those are really interesting things to look at
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because I think especially now with virtual schooling becoming so much so much more common since the pandemic.
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Sometimes people's interpretation of homeschooling is very much just rigid classroom behavior but sitting, you
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know, kind of like you and I are sitting here right now, right? We're just >> we're screen to screen instead of
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instead of face to face in a classroom. Um, and unschooling takes a little bit more of that creative license. Um, so I
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think that there's yeah there's definitely there's definitely a middle
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ground in there too. No, I I I'm probably with you in kind of that like I think unschooling is like a form of of
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homeschool or at least my view like traditional homeschool, but yeah, with the rise like with the pandemic and now
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everything a lot of things becoming virtual and I know a lot of kids now that do like the road schooling thing
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where their family lives in an RV and like but they they technically go to public school and I'm like but they're
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kind of homeschooled and it's it's like this weird like I'm like the lines are
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blurry I guess is what I'm trying to say where growing up I had is very definitive of like homeschool is mom and
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dad are choosing my curriculum and they're building it themselves. Um you know and they're they're piecing
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together what was working for us and so there's this individualistic aspect to it where it's like hey if my
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kid is really into this like we're going to lean heavily into that. Um there's
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some customization in the homeschool world that I think uh lacks in the public school. That's that's my opinion.
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But um >> definitely and I think that like turn that my parents took kind of towards
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unschooling um you know I definitely found it um you know in my in my in my later teen years as well um that's kind
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of self-directed education and what I was interested in um definitely was kind of a hallmark of you know my I feel like
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my teen my my teen experience in homeschooling because I had um some of the autonomy to do that right and to
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figure out what I was interested in and what mattered to me. uh the the challenge I think comes in that you know
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a lot of times in high school it's also when you are learning to um adhere to
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some of those other some of those other norms as well and so for things like you
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know things like math and things like science I'm going to be honest I was not
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interested um and so those things became very difficult for me especially especially without the you know
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boundaries of a classroom around that uh so that's that's the part I think of
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unschooling that sometimes becomes a little bit tricky for families right because you want you want children to be
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able to explor what they're interested in and you want them to be able to have
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that autonomy. Um, but at the same time, you have to learn math and I did, but it
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was a struggle. >> Yeah, I I feel you. There was definitely I think like you, my my high school
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experience was like a little bit of that like there was some structure, there was
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some understanding of like what my my parents had a very um >> they wanted my sister and I to be able
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to go to college. That was the the end the end goal was not just get them through high school. The end goal was
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get them through high school and launched into whatever is next. So college, job, um marriage, whatever that
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next step is, adulthood. Um and I think that that kind of differentiated them from other homesooled parents who were
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just like, we're getting through high school and then that's it and you're on
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your own and you'll figure out life. >> Yeah. And so because they had that
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structure to them, there was kind of there was an understanding of like, okay, you're gonna need XYZ science and
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that was explained to me. Okay, so that's important. I think I want to go to college. I'm going to need chemistry.
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I'm going to need biology. I'm going to need all these different things. I'm
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going to need all these different levels of math. Um, and so it did help. I think
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it helped me actually because it gave me that motivation of like if I want to launch successfully, I'm going to need
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this. um you know, and even if it's just kind of a like learn it to regurgitate
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it type of situation, I need to be able to do that uh to get to the next level of life.
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>> Um maybe not the healthiest way to look at it, but it was definitely that was my
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experience with it. And so >> I I'm wondering for for you like did your parents have a similar desire to
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not only see their kids graduate, but then like launch su I'm going to say successfully, but launch into the real
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world? >> Definitely. I think um a lot of commonalities in that story as well. I
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remember, you know, as a teenager fighting with my mother about doing math because that's what we do. And that was
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a part of it, you know, is that Tess, you need to go to college. Tess, you need to, you know, kind of take that,
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you know, you you need to kind of take that next step. So, um both my parents have four-year um you know, have
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four-year degrees. They actually have master's degrees. Um I undercut them there a little bit. So, both my parents
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have have professional degrees. Um and so, it was always kind of assumed that college was college was the next step
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for us. And that was definitely for my sisters and I um held as sort of the the common step that happened after high
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school. Um I think that in the entire in the entire education landscape right now, the conversations we're having with
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students are a lot different about what you do after after high school. I think that there's a lot more conversation
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about things like, you know, things like trade schools and training or these secondary options that are not just
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four-year universities. Um but for me back in the early 2000s, dating myself again there, um that was really what you
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what was you know assumed was that was that you went to college right after high school. And so my parents um I
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think did try to set me up as best they possibly could for college. Um ultimately I did I did go to college
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right after um right after I turned 18 um entered my freshman year. I failed out miserably. Um, I think that for me,
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um, being able to direct my own education so much, um, in high school and not having a ton of experience in
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kind of what you said, like the regurgitating part of it, um, was really really hard for me. I struggled to
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function in a classroom environment. Um, because I wasn't I just wasn't used to
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it. I, you know, on on a very frank level, I also wasn't used to having to do things that I wasn't interested in
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and didn't want to do. And sometimes that's the reality of classes in college, right? Is that you just have to
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do it. Um, and ultimately I think I struggled socially as well because coming from um, a, you know, coming from
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a homeschool experience and while I was connected in terms of a lot of the artistic pursuits that I was interested
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in at the time, um, it's still a lot different to function in that type of peer environment. So, um, I I did go to
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college. My parents set me up for, like I said, as best they possibly could. Um,
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but it was not it was not the fit for me in any in any way, shape, or form uh at
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at that time in my life. I don't necessarily blame homeschooling for that experience. I think it was I think there
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were a lot of factors in there. Um, but it is an interesting thing to consider about had I had a more traditional
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education experience or even a high school experience how that h how that might have been um how that might have
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been different. >> Yeah. But what I will say is that once I once I failed out miserably, um, you
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know, I I do credit homeschooling with getting me um kind of getting my feet under me and figuring out what the what
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it was I wanted to do next. Um, I I was always very empowered to pursue opportunities that I was interested in
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and to kind of work creatively outside the bounds of a traditional a traditional education or in this case a
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traditional professional career. So, I actually um I started my nonprofit journey because I was I was teaching art
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classes at a local YMCA and then just really um kind of fell in love with nonprofit work, the way that we fill
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this critical gap between what societyy's able to offer and what policy um can't meet. And really, I I launched
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my professional career um at a YMCA. Uh, so I'm happy to, you know, be on the
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kind of be on the other side of that, be on the other side of that now. Um, I'm
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37 years old. I'm the executive director of the Coalition for Responsible Home
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Education. Um, and I'm actually back in school now. So, uh, maybe I I I will get
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that college thing done eventually. >> That That's so interesting. Like, you
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said a lot of things there that I'm like, okay, I gota I want to touch on all these different things. But yeah,
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>> so one, I mean, I remember too, like my my freshman year of college, similar to
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you, I I didn't um I I don't think I struggled nearly as much. Um, and part
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of that I I had some in-classroom experiences in in my later high school years where I was going to a classroom
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or I was taking some kind of class. And so I had a little bit of structure and I
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think of of like understanding what that looked like. Like and so when I got to college, I was like I I struggled with
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the like similar to you of like I'm not interested in this, so like why would I
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even bother waste my time with it? And then other things I was just like way smarter than the the class like and I I
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don't say that to be like, you know, to to be boastful, but like I took an intro
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to business class and I was like I had already run multiple businesses in high school and I was like I I know all this
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stuff. I could have tested out of this very easily. Um and the professor hated me because I just was like well that
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actually doesn't work. like I pushed back on like every idea he had kind of a
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thing. Um to the point where he was just like shut up and listen. And I'm sure
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there were things that I I did not know, you know, being 18 and thinking you you
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know everything in the world. But um but it was definitely like it was frustrating because I had been used to
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>> that much more unstructured environment where it was like it was okay to push
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back on ideas and it was okay to just like go do things and test and experiment and um
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>> there wasn't formulas for like this is going to work and this isn't going to
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work. Like it was just all about like going and doing that. Um I'm interested.
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Yeah. You talked about working in the YMCA. Is that something that had started previous to college where you had been
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involved in like community type things like that or or how did you how did you find that and how did you you know get
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involved in the nonprofit stuff? Um I'm always interested you know where where
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those passions kind of spring from? >> I was always involved artistically I in
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you know dance, visual art, theater, whatever sort of artistic mechanism I could get my hands on um as a child and
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you know into into young adulthood. I was very very involved that way. Um there wasn't necessarily an intersection
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with you know with nonprofit work but I was like a lot of us I was raised in the
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church and so that idea of service to others was something that was deeply deeply ingrained in me from a young from
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a young age. I'm part of the ELCA Lutheran church. Um that's the church I
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grew up in. And so that again the idea of service to others um was was deeply familiar to me. uh working working at
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the YMCA was my first uh was my first nonprofit experience. Um and it was interesting because it was a combination
00:19:24
of that you know service to others that I had been that I had been raised with but with a larger community lens to it
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as well. And I think it was important for me to see these large structures of support that exist within
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within American society that help so many people. I wasn't in traditional school in the United States. And so I
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don't think I realized all of these other again just structures of support that kind of exist both for both for
00:19:51
kids and for families. And so for me working at the YMCA for a long time um and then I worked for an organization
00:19:58
called Girls on the Run and then I worked for the Boys and Girls Club as well. So my entire professional career
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um really has been dedicated to that to to that idea of these systems of support
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that happen in communities that are outside of the traditional school system. Um you know I think as
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homeschoolers sometimes there's a there's a large uh there's somewhat of a
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fear of the public school system but sometimes there can also be a a distrust of these other organizations that are
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kind of at that at at that same juncture. I'm a firm believer that education doesn't just happen in inside
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classroom walls. And especially seeing how so many so many people so so many of my peers accessed all of these resources
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through organizations um like the Boys and Girls Club and like the YMCA was important for my larger understanding of
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it. You know, it's it's so interesting like you you mentioned like you know
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like some of some of the failing not I'm going to say failings of schools but
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like those things that are missing those pieces that are missing that are getting
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met with things like the YMCA in and society boys and girls club. I worked at a library while I was in high school and
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it was right next to the Boys and Girls Club and they would come and they would you know do things with us at the
00:21:08
library and we would go support them in the ways we could with story time or whatever. And um and I remember that was
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like a big shifting point similar to you where I was like I saw also you working
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at the library I don't think people realize how much services the library offers of like when it comes
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internet access. Yeah. Like it's insane. Um the library of things like just the
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the sheer amount of things that your library provides for you is is insane. Um and so so it kind of clicked in my
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brain I think when I was like 16 17 years old of like oh the there there are these things that exist that are like
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filling these gaps um in the world. It clicked in my brain the importance of those things that I think gets lost a
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lot of times for people where they just see big numbers going and sometimes they're not big numbers but big amounts
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of money going into these things that they're like I'm not seeing any return
00:22:03
on this investment so to speak, right? And it's like you you're not it's it's
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different. It's like a I'm I'm trying to think of the way how I how I I I know
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I've phrased this much better in the past and I'm jumbling my words here, but
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like there is a net positive to the education and the support that these programs bring uh to the world and so um
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anyway, so I commend you for for that work um for sure because it's it's it t
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it takes tough people to to do those jobs. >> Yeah. Yeah. I really um and that's
00:22:36
really what brought me um to my current role at the Coalition for Responsible Home Education. We are a we are a 501c3
00:22:43
organization. Um and our mission is to empower homesooled children um in a in a lot of different capacities. And so I'm
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happy that I'm able to bring that kind of all of that nonprofit experience but
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really elevate again one of my one of my pivotal life experiences as well. So it's been interesting to kind of connect
00:23:01
those connect those dots as an adult. Well, let's yeah, let's kind of get
00:23:05
into, you know, and actually before we get into coalition more, I want to talk to you really quickly about because I
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know you're a mother with some kiddos and your kids are in public school. What
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went into the decision to put your kids in public school and how has that been? Did you think about homeschooling them?
00:23:22
>> Yeah, definitely. And I I appreciate the question because especially I spend, you
00:23:26
know, as you know, Jake, I spent all my time talking about homeschooling now. Um, but it's but it's not something that
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I, you know, >> I do as an adult. Um, I think that there's a couple I think there's a
00:23:36
couple pieces of it that are that are important to consider just frankly in the larger homeschooling conversation as
00:23:42
well. Um, I guess at the base level, homeschooling was never really an option for me. Um, I became a single parent
00:23:50
when my daughters were very young. And a lot of times in homeschooling conversations, I don't think we talk
00:23:55
enough about the privilege that homeschooling truly is. um you know for someone to do homeschooling
00:24:00
well and to do homeschooling responsibly and to really deliver to children what it is they need um that requires I think
00:24:08
sometimes the the capacity and the energy that as a single parent I was never going to be able to deliver. Um so
00:24:15
for me it's it was not even really a there wasn't really a decision around
00:24:20
it. It was never it was never an option if that is if if that makes sense. But from the time my daughters were young, I
00:24:27
was I I did navigate something that was kind of brand new to me um as because because it wasn't something that I had
00:24:33
experienced as a as a child. So I you know even before public school um I had my daughters in in daycare. Um I
00:24:41
actually I was a single parent at the time and I actually accessed I actually accessed resources through Michigan to
00:24:47
help me pay for daycare. And growing up in an environment where even though I was in public school, there was still
00:24:54
kind of a cultivated fear of of of public school and sometimes of these larger systems of support that society
00:25:00
um that society needs. It was it was hard for me to kind of take that jump and to move in that direction a little
00:25:07
bit. Um, but ultimately I'm so glad I did because it I have seen my daughters
00:25:12
just absolutely blossom, you know, academically, socially, um, and just as great sort of citizens of of of, you
00:25:20
know, my of their school, of my town of Michigan. Um, and I credit the public school system a lot for that. Uh, I
00:25:28
don't think I think homeschooling is a great choice for some people, but it is
00:25:33
again rooted in a in a privilege that not everybody has. And so when we're having these conversations about about
00:25:39
homeschooling, I I do think that's important to to to recognize as well that it is genuinely um it is genuinely
00:25:46
a privileged piece as well. >> No, I I 100% agree with you. I I I have had a couple talks recently with my
00:25:54
parents about the fact that like I I grew up in Southern California. It is not cheap to live in live in Southern
00:26:00
California. I you know and so to live on one income and have my mom be a full-time stay-at-home mom with two kids
00:26:07
and homeschool them and invest her time and energy into that. And then later my dad got more involved in our our
00:26:12
education as well. And so like I don't take that lightly anymore and I recognize a little bit of that like
00:26:19
sacrifice that happened there. Um, and so yeah, it's definitely like I think if
00:26:25
the situation was different, like I I I wouldn't be sitting here talking about
00:26:29
homeschooling because I would have been in public school. Um, and so no, I think
00:26:33
that's a that's a very crucial piece to kind of touch on there is the fact that
00:26:37
it is a very privileged place to come from when when you are a homeschool kid. Okay, so let's pivot a little bit into
00:26:44
CRE, the Coalition for Responsible Home Education. you kind of have answered this already,
00:26:51
but what really is it? Um, and like what what is the purpose? How do we get involved? How did you get involved with
00:27:00
it and find it? And um, yeah, let's start there. >> Yeah. So, I um, the Coalition for
00:27:05
Responsible Home Education, um, it's a nonprofit that was founded all the way
00:27:09
back in 2013. Um it was the coalition for responsible home education was founded by alumni and remains um powered
00:27:17
by alumni to to this day as well. Uh we work in kind of three three areas that are all centered around empowering
00:27:25
empowering homesooled children. So we um a lot of the resources we create help alumni um with that transition between
00:27:35
homeschooling and the real world. um in so many adult alumni that I that I talk to, we all kind of talk about this like
00:27:42
reckoning that we had when we had to go into the real world. And so we do a lot of we do a lot of resource um you know
00:27:49
resource building around that around around that transition time and um and build some resources for families that
00:27:56
are currently homeschooling now. Um our focus remains alumni and will always remain alumni. Um but the reality is is
00:28:03
that as more and more families are homeschooling, more and more families want to want to hear from us as well
00:28:08
about how they can improve their current um homeschooling practice. So that's the
00:28:12
resources thing that we do. Um we also do we we do some really really interesting research. Uh Dr. Jonah
00:28:18
Stewart leads our research efforts. Um and that takes a lot of different I guess a lot of different methods, ways
00:28:27
and things that we're trying to learn about. Uh one of our signature efforts
00:28:30
there is maintaining the homeschoolings of the invisible children database. This
00:28:35
is a uh this is a database of kind of extreme cases of abuse and neglect where homeschooling is is is a common thread
00:28:42
throughout them. Um homeschooling is not is not free of abuse and neglect. Um a lot of times in homeschooling
00:28:50
conversations we we tend to grant parents the all of the good intentions, right? there's a
00:28:58
there's a presumption that if someone is homeschooling, they are a great person.
00:29:01
Um, and that is true for the majority, right? But the reality is is that there is a subset of abuse and neglect that is
00:29:07
happening. And that's what the HIC database maintains. Jonah also leads our research uh specifically into
00:29:13
homeschooling outcomes as well because we want to have more real data around what it is homeschoolers do next. Um,
00:29:20
working on this side of it, it's challenging because a lot of states states treat homeschooling differently
00:29:24
in every way, shape, and form. So, we don't have a great idea sometimes of how
00:29:28
many homeschoolers exist and we have an even worse idea of what happens next. Uh, I think anecdotally we know that
00:29:34
homeschoolers tend to, you know, maybe have some pretty good outcomes, but homeschoolers also have really bad
00:29:41
outcomes. Um, and we see both of those in our alumni and it's important for us
00:29:44
to be able to present that from a data from a data standpoint. The final thing we do is actually um is actually around
00:29:50
advocacy and specifically encouraging responsible oversight on a state-by-state basis to make sure that
00:29:57
the children are accessing education, that children have a safe home environment um and that those negative
00:30:02
outcomes that we see in research, there's a safety net around them that's
00:30:06
created um from policy. So that's what that's what uh the Coalition for Responsible Home Education does. I um I
00:30:14
came to the organization because they were in um an exciting place of growth and were able to hire an executive
00:30:19
director for the very first time. So I when I applied to this uh when I applied to this job, it was the first time I had
00:30:25
ever even mentioned I was homeschooled in a job interview, [laughter] cover letter, anything, you know, anything
00:30:31
like that. Um and not only did I mention it, it was a selling point, which was crazy to me. Um because, you know, I'm
00:30:38
deeply aware of the stigma that exists around homeschoolers. Um, and a lot of those stereotypes that kind of if I were
00:30:45
to tell somebody I was homeschooled would come ahead of my professional experience. So, it's not something I
00:30:49
shared. Um, people would find it out about me eventually. So, I also I I hold a small municipal elected position in my
00:30:56
community as well. So, um, I was having a conversation with some of my commissioners as well about this about
00:31:02
um, school buses and I had to come clean and tell them I had never been on a school bus before. I did not understand
00:31:07
what they were talking about. So, it comes up in different ways, right? People know that I'm homeschooled
00:31:12
eventually, but it was never something I led with because of those stigma and stereotypes that exist. Um, however, I
00:31:18
was able to in this job, which was just what a neat experience, right? >> No, it's so funny that you mentioned
00:31:26
that because uh I was thinking about you you talked about kind of that do doing research into the numbers of what
00:31:32
homeschoolers do after, right? And I and I I know for me when I got to college, I
00:31:38
hid that I was a homeschooler. I did not want to be the weirdo homeschool kid that everyone was like, "He's gonna be
00:31:43
antisocial and he's gonna be whatever." I just told people I went to private
00:31:47
school because that's what my my mom had always told me growing up, hey, if you're out and you know, people ask you
00:31:53
about your education or whatever. Not that we were really afraid of truency officers or anything like that, but um
00:31:58
but she also didn't want us to get uh in trouble if we, you know, ran an errand
00:32:02
for her or whatever during traditional school hours. Um and so she would always say just, you know, tell people you're
00:32:08
in private school kind of a thing. And and usually usually people will look the other way like they're just kind of move
00:32:13
on from it or whatever. And um and so anyway, so I just took that into college and so many of of my friends and the
00:32:18
people who have been on the show previous similar deal. They're like, "I got out
00:32:23
of it and then I never wanted to talk about it ever again." Um, and I had one
00:32:27
lady on early on uh the show who she had not thought about it for many, many years. And it kind of like almost
00:32:34
blacked it out that she was like a homeschool kid and uh and she's like and then it all started coming flooding back
00:32:42
uh when she got connected to the show and things like that. And so it was interesting to talk to her because as we
00:32:46
were talking I could see like it lighting up in her brain of like I remember this thing that happened and
00:32:51
all these you know and she had just kind of removed all of that from her life is
00:32:55
>> that's not a defining factor of who I am any longer. And so um so I wonder if
00:33:01
that plays any role in in those numbers that you guys are pulling there. So so funny to then go into a job interview
00:33:07
and it's like that's actually the selling point of of uh [laughter] getting the job is like hey this was me.
00:33:13
Yeah. >> So, let's talk a little bit about like how how people like myself can get
00:33:19
involved or at least like learn more about it. Like I know you guys have a website. I'm going to link it down
00:33:24
below. It's uh responsible education. Is that what it is? No. >> Well, so it's actually if if you just
00:33:29
use our abbreviation cr.org, you can get there. Um it's the Coalition for Responsible Home Education is what those
00:33:37
is what those letters are. >> And so aside from that though, how can alumni get involved? what are you
00:33:42
looking to you know what are you needing from us I guess that's that's the
00:33:47
question there [laughter] >> yeah thank you yeah thank you for that so I mentioned like you know we do a lot
00:33:52
of work in resources and creating resources we love hearing from alumni what would help them um in terms of
00:33:57
research as well a lot of that research is alumni driven so if people connect to
00:34:00
us and get on our lists you'll see um not just our projects but we are kind of
00:34:06
a nexus of alumni for a lot of different researchers as well so um there's an
00:34:11
archavist in Wisconsin who reached out to me because they she wants to capture stories of homeschoolers in Wisconsin.
00:34:17
So, all of these really neat research projects kind of come through us. So, if alumni dial into what we're doing um and
00:34:23
you know and join our mailing list, they'll have the opportunity to share their stories and kind of contribute to
00:34:28
this larger methodological research that's happening across the country. homeschooling is the fastest growing
00:34:34
education modality in the US right now. And alumni have the opportunity to be on, you know, kind of the inside of that
00:34:40
research as it's happening. Um, and that alumni perspective and research is such
00:34:45
a critical piece when we move into advocacy as well. Um so at the Coalition for Responsible Home Education, we
00:34:52
firmly believe that um states should have additional oversight measures in place for children that are homeschooled
00:34:59
um both in kind of the educational realm as well as the child welfare realm because um students have the potential
00:35:07
to miss out not just on resources but frankly on safety measures as well. At CR we do advocate for we say more
00:35:14
oversight. That can sound like a scary word, but I promise it's not a scary word. It's just um it's just kind of
00:35:20
responsibility measures. We would love it if every state had um you know kind of an assessment process for
00:35:26
homeschooled children. Um we think that's important because we've seen both
00:35:30
from research and from our alumni stories that sometimes when homesooled children fall behind, there's no way to
00:35:36
even catch that educational gap until it's until frankly it's it's too late.
00:35:42
So, when we look at, you know, kind of some of the education, we would love to see um homeschoolers be able to access
00:35:47
all of the same resources that public school kids can. I live in Michigan now. Um while I grew up in Dearborn, I live
00:35:53
in a slightly more rural community now. And so, I know that the public school a lot of times it's the only way that in
00:35:58
communities like mine, those resources exist. I know you mentioned working at a library. In some small towns in
00:36:04
Michigan, the only library is the school library. And homeschoolers should have that access, too. So, we are advocating
00:36:11
for laws that, you know, both educationally support and resource kind of support our homeschoolers. Um, the
00:36:18
other side of what we do and while um and why some of this work is is is hard to hear as well is that we also are
00:36:25
advocating for oversight measures that will keep kids safe. In in in 48 states, someone can be convicted of a violent
00:36:33
crime against children and still be allowed to homeschool their own child. Um, in 49 states as well, if a family is
00:36:39
in the middle of a of an active child welfare investigation, they can actually withdraw their student to be
00:36:46
homeschooled. Um, that's an incredible safety risk, especially when the perpetrator is likely someone at home.
00:36:52
Um, because homeschooling has become so deregulated. I mentioned in Michigan since 1996, but because of that
00:36:58
systematic deregulation of homeschooling, we've removed a lot of safeguards for children who could be the
00:37:03
victims of abuse and neglect. So when you hear kind of shocking statistics, right, that you can be convicted of a
00:37:09
crime against a child um and you and you can homeschool your own your own child,
00:37:14
they won't have that same access and support during the day and that relief that they would have um if they were
00:37:20
outside of the school system. So when we're talking to legislators, we're also
00:37:23
talking about some very scary but very impactful work as well. And to be frank, we need alumni at the table. Um most
00:37:31
homeschooling policy and law um is legislators who have never been homeschooled and will never homeschool
00:37:38
their own children talking to parents who are actively homeschooling. And the place that we are not talking is people
00:37:45
who have the lived experience of being homeschooled. Um and it's crazy to me
00:37:50
that some of these decisions are made by people who have never been a homeschooled child themselves. They're
00:37:54
not even taking feedback from homeschooled children. Um, and you can't do that when a when a homeschool child's
00:38:00
like 12 or 13 because they're still under, you know, they're still within
00:38:03
the experience. But when alumni dial into us, we can give them those opportunities to make their voice heard
00:38:08
in a really impactful um way. >> That's huge. And that's honestly what I
00:38:13
think was so attractive to your organization when I found it was was that because that is the piece that's
00:38:21
missing. Um, and that's something that I when I started this show, it started
00:38:25
very much from a selfish selfish place of like, hey, I just want to reconnect with my old friends and like, you know,
00:38:31
kind of shoot the breeze on like old funny stories of like being moms and being weird little church homeschool
00:38:38
kids and, you know, all that all that kind of stuff. And what I what I realized really quickly was that like we
00:38:44
had these stories that yeah, we have the funny stories and we have like the great
00:38:47
times and stuff, but we also have all these stories of like this was really good, this was really bad, and this over
00:38:54
here, this was really ugly. Um, and those stories are important because like you said, they're going they can impact
00:39:02
the next generation of homeschool kids. What I didn't realize when I started
00:39:06
this show was who completely would be listening to it. I thought this is going to be like a therapy group. Only ex-h
00:39:11
homeschool kids are going to listen to it. And the number of emails and DMs that I've gotten from active homeschool
00:39:17
families who are saying, "Please keep doing this because I need to hear the
00:39:22
stories of these kids so that I don't do the same thing to my kid." That's
00:39:25
important. And and what you guys are doing is kind of a I think a furthering of that of just like, okay, but now we
00:39:31
can actually make some laws based on those experience hopefully. Um, and that's very important. So, thank you for
00:39:38
what you do. I appreciate it. Um, is there any legislation currently that's kind of in the works or that you guys
00:39:47
are actively working on that people should be aware of and in what what states would those be happening?
00:39:52
>> Yeah. So, we um legislatively we kind of work in we kind of work in two
00:39:56
directions. So sometimes um sometimes there will be active um active legislation on the floor in different
00:40:02
states where there's a great opportunity to bring homeschooling into this when
00:40:06
things already exist and we can just kind of add some language about homeschooling into it. We're allowed um
00:40:11
you know that that opportunity. Some of the current bills on the floor um one of
00:40:15
them is in New Jersey. It's in actually in committee right now. And what's
00:40:19
happening in New Jersey is that there's legislation that would require homeschool families um to check in once
00:40:25
a year with their local school district. We firmly support this from both an educational uh you know kind of
00:40:31
educational assessment component, but also to make sure that every every single homeschooled child in New Jersey
00:40:37
would have access to a mandated reporter at least once a year. So when there is legislation happening like that like
00:40:43
like that legislation in New Jersey, um we're firmly supportive of it. We activate our alumni around it to to to
00:40:50
be supportive of the lawmaker who's kind of bringing that forward and we offer
00:40:54
any kind of really any kind of support that we can. Um I hinted at it earlier, but the deregulation and the kind of
00:41:01
anti-oversight homeschool homeschool movement is massive and it is far better funded than we are and their lobbyists
00:41:09
are um you know far far better resourced uh than we are. But it's important that
00:41:16
there's a but that there's another voice at the table. So right now where there's
00:41:20
some of that active, you know, positive legislation on the floor um that's happening that's happening right now in
00:41:26
New Jersey, but pretty close to that in Massachusetts. There's a bill in committee right now that will
00:41:31
essentially remove the the few protections that there are in the state of Massachusetts from for homeschooled
00:41:37
children. What they're looking to do in Massachusetts is actually Massachusetts
00:41:41
does have a registry system, which means that if families are going to homeschool, they have to at least notify
00:41:45
their local school board. What's currently on the floor in Massachusetts is the option to totally remove that.
00:41:50
So, we would essentially be losing losing track of all of these kids. Same idea. We'll activate the alumni. The
00:41:57
other the other reason the legislation happens and why people reach out to us is is a little bit darker. There are
00:42:04
a lot of times there are really horrific cases that come that come into the public eye and that's what motivates
00:42:11
legislators to start acting. Um I wish we would look at everything proactively, but that's just not the way it works. An
00:42:18
example of that would be in Connecticut. I just realized I've used all New England examples. There's more states,
00:42:22
but I just went through New England. Um so in Connecticut, um so in Connecticut right now, there will be some
00:42:29
legislation coming to the floor that we are actively involved in. um in in in drafting right now because there have
00:42:34
been um there have been two fatalities that surround uh what we what we would call suspicious withdrawal. This is when
00:42:41
families have are actively engaged in a CPS investigation. They're allowed to
00:42:45
take their kids out of school. Um and ultimately in both of these cases uh the children the children were murdered. So
00:42:52
we are we are we are supporting that kind of drafting of legislation to to see when that comes. So, those are three
00:42:59
states with active things happening right now. Um, but but we're also working directly with directly with
00:43:05
legislators in multiple other states as well. So, even though I only named New England ones, faults of mine there,
00:43:12
there's lots of others. >> Hey, you're you're all good. I know on
00:43:16
the on the website as well, you guys have a have some cool like maps that, you know, you can put in the state you
00:43:21
were educated in or the state you live in and things like that and it'll show
00:43:24
you some of the the protections and and and the protections that don't exist in
00:43:28
those states. Um, and that was helpful for me because up until like I said a couple years ago, like I didn't really
00:43:34
realize the difference of um of really like each state. I just kind of thought like, hey, every every state is like,
00:43:41
you know, my state of California. My parents just seem to I mean, I know they filed paperwork, but like they seem to
00:43:47
just kind of like pull me out of school and homeschool me and um you know, and and do their best um so to [laughter]
00:43:54
speak. >> And that's the case in 19 states is that all the parents have to do is well,
00:43:58
actually, they don't even have to file paperwork in 19 states. California is
00:44:01
when they actually have to file something. In 19 states, all that it is is if a child stops showing up to
00:44:05
school, the parent says, "We're homeschooling." And that is truly the
00:44:08
end of the road. >> Yeah. To your point, then it becomes very easy for kids to fall off the radar
00:44:13
and to we hear stats all the time about homeschool kids being smarter and being more likely to succeed in the world and
00:44:21
go do big things. U but I found it very interesting where some of those stats come from uh in more in more recent
00:44:29
times. So, um, yeah. No, I I appreciate what you do and again to the audience, go check out what CR is doing. Um, link
00:44:38
will be down in the show notes and get involved if you feel interested. Tess, is there anything we haven't touched on
00:44:45
that you think is important regarding any of these topics? >> No, I'm I'm I'm grateful this show
00:44:49
exists and to find these other, you know, networks networks of homeschool alumni. Um, I would definitely encourage
00:44:54
alumni to, like you said, Jacob, get involved uh with what we're doing. um you know, positive, negative, and
00:45:02
everywhere in between. It's really the voice of homeschool alumni that that is
00:45:07
going to make the best uh the best case in not just in legislation, but in research and in resources for the next
00:45:13
set of homeschooled kids. And I'm interested to see what, you know, what what stereotypes exist of them, right? I
00:45:18
know I know the stereotypes that exist of homeschoolers around my generation. And I'm so curious what that's going to
00:45:23
look like in, you know, 1015 years. So, we can talk about that then. [laughter] >> Yeah. No, I think it is I think it is
00:45:29
really interesting because um like I know people who were kind of like in the bo the the front lines of the homeschool
00:45:36
movement in California and their their stereotypes are different than like I'm
00:45:40
more of a product of like the 2000s. Uh I was born in the '9s but homeschooled
00:45:44
in the 2000s and the 2010s. Um and then now even knowing kids that are yeah in the 2020s uh being homeschooled and I'm
00:45:52
like you you got a whole another set of weirdness on you. I joke with one of my friends I that we
00:45:59
uh homeschoolers have this uh we have a smell to us and we can we can sniff each
00:46:04
other out in a crowd pretty quickly. So uh >> yeah and my staff and I we say you know
00:46:09
we say weirdo uh we say weirdo with all the positive connotation that there is. Right.
00:46:14
>> Same. Yes. >> And we all identify with that. [laughter] >> Everybody everybody is weird. But like
00:46:19
we have a there's a specific homeschool weirdo that is like and I and uh I think
00:46:25
uh going back to kind of some of those previous comments of like uh I was ashamed of that for a number of years
00:46:31
and now I feel like I've just em I've chosen to embrace that uh in my life of
00:46:36
like this is a part of who I am and I I'm I'm not going to run from it anymore. So
00:46:40
>> yeah, >> again, Tess, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your experience
00:46:44
and what you do and and how others can get involved. Um, I'm looking forward to
00:46:48
continuing like watching what you guys are doing, being involved how I can and uh, yeah, this has been this has been
00:46:54
fantastic. Thank you again. >> Awesome. Thanks so much. I appreciate it. >> Awesome. And to you, my ex-homies, I
00:47:00
hope you enjoyed this episode. Like we said so many times in this episode. Links will be down in the description to
00:47:04
get involved with the coalition of responsible home educators and uh, see what see what's going on there. See if
00:47:10
that's something you're interested in being a part of. If you want to hear
00:47:13
more about it, let me know. Um, I'm happy to reach out to more of the people
00:47:16
on their staff and see if they would want to come on and share some additional things. But yeah, and if
00:47:21
you've got a homeschool story, don't be afraid to reach out to me. It's
00:47:24
[email protected]. Shoot me an email, let me know. Give me like the quick little elevator pitch of
00:47:30
who you are, uh, your homeschool experience, and let's let's chat. Let's
00:47:33
see if you'd be a good fit to come on the show. Until next time, we'll see
00:47:37
you. [music] Peace. >> [music] [music]