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What is good my exhies? It's your boy Jacob Gooden and we are back for another
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week in the exhomeschoolers club. Today I am joined by my brand new friend Charlie Monroe who aside from being a
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homeschool alum is a licensed family therapist and a former youth pastor. He's going to talk all about growing up
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in rural Michigan. Uh the role that religion played in his homeschool experience being right smack dab in the
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middle of six kids and uh yeah, let's just say his experience is anything but
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conventional. So, he's bringing his own deep insights, not only from his personal stuff, but also from his work
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uh in family therapy and working with some modern homeschool families. So, if that's you, if you're unpacking your
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past and thinking about the future of homeschooling, this episode is a must listen. I'm going to shut up now and
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turn it over to past me. [Music] Charlie, we're here. We're in the X homeschoolers club. Welcome to the
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exhomeschoolers club, my friend. It's good to finally be here. Well, uh, we got connected through Instagram.
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Actually, I think I liked one of your Instagram reels about being a homeschooled kid playing with Legos and,
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uh, and yeah, we ended up just kind of DMing and it took us a little while to actually like get on a call and and
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chat, but I'm glad we did. And so, we're here today and I'm stoked because you're
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going to share your homeschool experience with the audience. So, I don't want to sugarcoat it too much more
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other than that. I'm going to hand it over to you, but could you just like walk us through kind of set the stage,
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if you will, for your homeschool experience? How long were you homeschooled? Siblings, where do you sit
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in the sibling lineup? And then maybe like what a typical kind of like day looked like at the at the house. Yeah.
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So, I grew up in the country, so dirt roads, and we were a rural homeschool family, so we weren't part of co-ops for
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most of my time. And I was homeschooled K through 12. So that was my entire uh entire upbringing. So we were kind of in
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the middle of nowhere and there was six kids in the family and an aunt that lived with us for about 15 years and
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then my two parents and so household of nine and so in the kids I'm about in the
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middle. Uh we have an adopted older sister so kind of birth in the middle. Um but that's definitely the
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personality type that I took on was a middle child. Okay. And so we were kind of hobby farm people. We had, you know,
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animals that we would raise to eat and gardens that were raised to, you know, eat through the winter sort of
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situation. So a lot of that was integrated on day-to-day basis. Uh, so you know, if you weren't doing homework
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and were finished, probably about by noon or 1, there was chores to do outside that had to involve animals or
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the garden or something similar to that as part of the daily routine. So, that was kind of the day in the life. Okay.
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What kind of animals did you guys have on the farm? Uh, pretty much everything that wasn't considered a large animal.
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So, um, sheep, uh, goats. We did have a couple pigs and mostly chickens and turkeys and like a couple odd, you know,
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ducks or two here and there. Um, I think we dabbled in every small animal at one
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point. Okay. Yeah. My mom always wanted chickens. Begged and pegged begged for chickens. Never happened. We had friends
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who had chickens and goats and things like that. Our backyard just lended itself more to the garden. So, I I
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understand that when you're talking about, yeah, okay, we had responsibilities in the garden. Totally
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feel that. My whole responsibility upbringing was like you maintain the lawn and a lot of the garden and you
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know yeah take care of those things and like you know we'll be good get you outside a little bit get some sun. So
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I I'm curious cuz one of six kids that's I would classify that as a large
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homeschool family. I'm one of two. Um so like that role of like being a middle
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child. My family doesn't have that. We've got the oldest and we got the youngest. So, like what does that look
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like to you or how do you envision like middle kid status? Like what is that personality like? Yeah, and it varies a
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lot. And I mean personality archetypes only go so far, but like my next oldest sibling was 5 years older than me and
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then the next youngest was three years. So there was like an eight-year gap that
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I sat in between, right? So like with that like I was the youngest for a long time then I was the middle of two kind
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of different groups of children that were closer in age and then I was the oldest when they got out of the house.
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Mhm. So like the role I would say shifted. I think the younger years was much more like trying to battle to be
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part of the older kids because you're so much younger. I mean my next the oldest
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siblings nine years older than me. Yeah. So there's quite a gap there. Uh but
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then after that it was more of kind of a uh old older child. I was probably more
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of my teenage years. So Okay, makes sense. Um yeah, so I kind of had to flow between roles. Yeah, that's so
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interesting cuz yeah, I've I'm the oldest not only just like kid in my family, but then also like grandkid on
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both sides. So, like I just I know I I have always and will always sit in that like first kid mentality of like
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everything's got to be perfect and like you know it's a it it's a lot of
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pressure to put on yourself. But like I know that like I know my role in the family is like firstborn, but I also get
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to make the argument that like I'm the favorite because I was I was the first.
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Um even though that's not true, but um you know it's I don't know. It's fun. It's
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fun to mess with the rest of the family when it comes to that stuff. So, okay. So, you also brought up that you guys
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didn't participate in like co-ops in the area or anything like that. So, was your homeschooling experience really
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isolated then or or did you have other friends? You just didn't really do much
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together in in regards to school. Yes, I would characterize it as isolating. Okay. 100%. um especially the middle
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school, early high school years. Um I'd say there would be about three years in
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there that were um particularly isolating. And we did I did I I joined a co co-op
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later in the years and like the reasons why we were in one I'm sure that they
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would um the articulated reasons would vary today compared to probably what was said back then, but we just weren't
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involved in one. We did play homeschool basketball, but that was like two practices a week as the season started
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and then no practices and then games until about February. And so you kind of ran from November to February and that
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and then you had friends at church. Yeah. And we were pretty religious family. Our motivation for homeschool
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was primarily religious. Okay. Um which is a little bit of the exception to the norm kind of. But yeah, that's where
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that's where friendships came from and that was about it. Yeah, I think a lot
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of us can relate. I had a my mom involved me in co-ops from like pretty much day one, but we were a part of a
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Christian home educating system uh in Venture County. But yeah, a lot of friends. We we went to church
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together and then we were doing some school together and like very much just kind of I I remember feeling a little
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isolated. But I think that also had to stem from I did two years of public school right off the rip. So
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kindergarten, first grade was public school. Okay. So second grade was the transition. And that kind of tends to
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like I think I just was in the mindset of like I'm going to see my friends every day and then that wasn't a
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reality. So, even though I saw my friends on the regular, it just wasn't the same. Um, but if you never had that,
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like that's just normal, you know? It's just normal to like have only siblings
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and only parents and we see, you know, friends at church on Sunday and um, you know, not that it's not isolating, but
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just um, I don't know. I think I had a little bit of that like expansive not expansive mind but I had a little
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bit of that experience and so I could pull from like okay I know that this isn't like 100% normal. Yeah. I think I
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think another part of it that was isolating is I was probably the only extrovert in the family. Okay. So that
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definitely lended towards I think uh a different experience. Right. Yeah. I'm
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I'm married to an extrovert. I'm an ambbervert. So, I'm like 50/50. So, I
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get I have my moments. But yeah, we need we need people. And yeah, I'm curious too like with
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like you being in the middle of of so many kids, the like ways that like your parents managed that because obviously
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there was a big gap. So maybe it was kind of a little bit easier where like some of the the olders were more
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independent by the time the youngers were in the in the family, but like my mom only had to manage two students and
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we were three years apart. So like there was a difference, but like two students
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is a lot different than six students. Um and so she wasn't having to like the, you know, the curriculum wasn't
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really that much different. Uh and then once we got older, it was very much like
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we're handling our own stuff. I have friends from bigger families who the older kids at a point were teaching the
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younger kids how to read and write and do math and and those types of things. So, did your family operate like that or
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or or were you guys more kind of like independent or what? I don't know. Like,
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walk me through that. Yeah, it was I think independence for sure. Okay. Um, I don't have many memories of my older
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siblings, but I do know that like they I mean by the time I was six, my oldest sibling was 15. And by high school, we
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were all independently functioning. So, we would have the the textbook, we would
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read it, we would do the stuff, my mom would check it if she needed to. Sometimes there wasn't stuff to do.
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Sometimes it was just reading the chapter sort of thing. And like so the the involvement in that level was very
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low because it didn't have to be which was probably the the greatest strength
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that came from homeschooling was that independent functioning. So I mean I got one-on-one attention from my mom for
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those early years um uninterrupted. Yeah. You know and my homeschooling experience wasn't going to be five six
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hours a day. It was going to be more like two and a half three. Yeah. You know so it was it was a very short
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amount of time in comparison. You also brought up like religion playing a big part in your homeschool experience and
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maybe being a big catalyst for why you guys homeschooled. Yeah. Did that play itself into the curriculum as well being
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very like Christian curriculum? Evolution is bad. Yes. Okay. Yeah. You know, it's funny. It stood out to me one
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day because you don't really like you when you find the word or words to describe your experience for the first
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time, it makes you understand it better. And I remember I was reading a therapy intake um form for myself and I asked
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the question uh was your religious upbringing rigorous? Okay. And I was like yes absolutely was. That is the
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best word to date. It was a rigorous religious training system. There is always scripture, always a Christian
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ideal, always the God's way interpretation of circumstances integrated into everything
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almost all the time, not just in the curriculum, but also in like the normal conversations of the day-to-day in the
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household. And family life radio is on and TCT is on the TV and just like that. It's rigorous. I can agree with you that
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like I didn't always view mine as like super rigorous and I wouldn't my parents
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even today like if you ask my mom the reason she homeschooled not exclusively religious reasons. She didn't really
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care for the the the the u the school situation in the town we moved to in second grade. My grandma had been
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nagging her about homeschooling and she was like, "Oh, let's just like give it a
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shot. Like I think maybe I could do this. I have some experience teaching like kind of a deal." And so while her
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reasons weren't exclusively religious, we were a religious family. So it just
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kind of bled itself into it and and we were in a religious environment with Ventura and and we were part of the
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Association of Christian Home Educators of Ventura County, which was like they were that was the thing that was if you
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wanted homeschool co-op, if you wanted support in this arena, like you were that or
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that like that was your option. Um, and so I I I think until yeah, I was an adult, I
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don't know that I would have classified it as like super rigorous or super just
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like always there, but it really was. And now as like an adult, I'm like sitting here going, it was in every
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textbook. It was in everything we did. And that's so interesting when I now talk to people who are who were not
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homeschooled or even who were but didn't have that religious aspect and they're
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like, "Oh yeah, we didn't like study Bible verses or we learned about like
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evolution and things like that." And I'm like, "What?" Like, does that shock you
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ever where you're just kind of like, "What? What does that even look like?
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Can you comprehend that at all?" I mean, I ended up substitute teaching for three
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years as part of my uh career in the past. And so like for me it's all very normal and now that feels much more and
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even like college too it's just like those conversations are much more normal
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and makes sense in the way that we did education in some capacities does not make a whole
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lot of sense um to me now. Yeah. So you got out of college. Let's let's kind of
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talk about that transition then from the home school world to the college world and like was it immediate like hey I'm
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graduating you know 18 I'm going to college did you take some gap years did you graduate early like and how was
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getting into college cuz like I know for me it wasn't an issue like I had transcripts I had the whole I held the
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whole deal but I know I've had previous guests on who they're like my parents
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didn't keep any type of anything so getting into college was like its own battle, but what did that what did that
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look like for you? My parents were very organized and um thought of those things
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ahead of time. So, that wasn't an issue. I think that was the biggest anxiety of
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my later high school years was would I not would I get in, but would I be able to perform? Okay, because you have no
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comparison model for how intelligent you are. you have your handful of friends and if they happen to be better at you
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than other things, you don't know if you're just dumb or incomp in incompetent or you're just maybe the
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lower end of these like select group of people. And so you just have no idea. And my and back then the ACT was what I
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took instead of the SAT. and my ACT score was decently high enough that it was like, okay, I'm not an idiot and now
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I know that, but will I still be able to perform in school? And that first semester was was very difficult. Um, and
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very difficult in the sense of like I just had no knowledge of things that were considered common place. Like I my
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first English class um was a nightmare. I mean, I they told me all these things you should probably
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know before you're in this class, and I've never heard of any of them in my
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entire life. No. And learning what like logical arguments had to be structured as, like how to write a paper, like
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thankfully I was a very like avid reader, so that translated, but my major was heavy paper writing, right, and very
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low test taking. So, I had to put out a lot of that kind of content. And that was I'd never done that before. Yeah.
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And I had never had to form relationships with professors or use services or know what they even were or
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what to expect from them. And you know, while some of that is still new for college students who come out of the
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high school experience, there's at least a base concept of what that can look
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like. And so, yeah, first semester was stressful. I'm with you on the like the
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college services thing. Like I didn't realize there was like tutors and stuff
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and I didn't have to pay them. Yeah. I just had to like show up, you know, or
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like office hours like professor office hours. I was like I didn't understand. I
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was like, "Oh, well, I don't want to bother them." It's like, "No, this is
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time they literally set aside to like just talk to you about whatever it is that you're struggling with. Cool." You
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know, and once I figured that out, once that clicked in my brain, I was like, I can do this, you know? Like I can I got
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this. You know, I can ask the dumb questions. And I'm so thankful. I don't
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know about you, I was like pretty awkward my first semester. I didn't want anybody to know I was homeschooled, so I
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just told people I went to private school. Um, but I also was really awkward. And I had a professor who sat
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me down. I was in her office for office hours. And she goes, "Jacob, you have to
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learn to like chill. Like you just got to be cool with like who's in the room."
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I wanted to work in the music industry. She's like, "That's the thing. if you
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want to be in the music industry, you know how to you just have to know how to like be there and be cool and you're
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like the guy in the room be like just shut up basically was like kind of the it was the nice way of her being like
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just shut up and just like sit in the room and be cool like that's it. Um so
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was that like I don't know did you have any of that social weirdness where you're like okay I'm learning things
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really really fast like but or not or not really you were an extrovert so maybe it wasn't a problem for you. I
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think there was definitely some self-awareness, but I think my nervousness quieted me at first more.
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Okay. And then I became a lot more open and outgoing. The I would say the year the second year. Uh the conversation I
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had from a professor was like he was like you need to speak less harshly and confidently about your
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opinions in class because you are un unintentionally shutting other people out of the conversation who just don't
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want to challenge what you just said. Interesting. Which then the discourse doesn't like continue. And I was very
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that that surprised me. I've never been I've never felt like an aggressive
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person and I've never been described that way or like dominating, but apparently in some classes if I was
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talking about certain particular topics I could be very opinionated. Yeah. And uh that was kind of that learning curve
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for me. I had a professor uh I went to a Christian college so talk about the Christian upbringing. I just I just
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carried that with me right into college. I was like I kind of wanted that youth group experience to just kind of
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continue. Um, so because you went to Greenville, right? I did. I went to Greenville University. Yeah. And um
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Yeah. Which which college did you go to again? I'm blinking. Spring Arbor. Spring Arbor. Okay. So, yeah, kind of
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similar. Sister Sister schools. Um, so I mean, yeah, we had like I don't know about you
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guys, we had like lifestyle agreement. We had all these things that there was like the do not do list. Um, we had like
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girls can only come over to your dorm certain days, for certain hours, four on the floor. Everybody would talk about
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four on the floor. Like, yeah, there was there was all that. But I had a professor who we took a religions class.
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Um, and the first day he was just asking us all these questions about like, you know, do you believe that like this
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story in the Bible is true? And then like discuss, right? and you have a bunch of Christian kids in there, like
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they're going to be opinionated like you're talking about. They're going to
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be very like set like this is 100% true. The Bible says it and then he would just
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ask why. He would just be like that annoying little kid who's just like the answer is never good enough. It's just
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always why why what you know? And um and he's like when I when I when you want to
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tap out, you just say Jesus. Like that's the answer to everything at the end of
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the day. Just say Jesus. That's your tap out kind of a thing. But to your point
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of like somebody would come in and say something that it was like I'm not talking to them anymore because like
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there is no there is no discussion. They are so set in what they believe. Correct. Um
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how how did that soften for you? Like was that like hard to kind of like soften that down for you or were you or
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were you kind of like or was it an instant like okay I think I get it. Like I think I can see it. Yeah that's that's
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a that could be a very long and complicated story. Um, the short answer is yes. That has all
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softened quite a bit and it did pretty quickly. Um, yeah, I don't know necessarily why that was easier for me
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or more of my go-to. Um, I think I just found like the arguments of my upbringing, the classic fundamental
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evangelicalism, I just guess I found it to be wanting in the scholarship space of the university,
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especially since I majored in like ministry and psych. It just a lot of those assumptions and like presented
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facts got challenged very quickly, right? And then some of those were slow bleeds over the course of, you know, a
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decade later. Yeah. Changing my mind of some things. But yeah. So was the intention I was going to ask you what
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your degree was, but was the intention then to like do something in ministry as a career? Mhm. Okay. Yeah, that was the
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explicit intention. Okay. And did you end up going in ministry and and doing that for? I did. Okay.
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Yeah. I did seven years of youth ministry. Uh loved it. Very we were very successful in that process. Um but yeah,
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I mean continuation of that conversation, I just as time went on, I moved farther and farther away from the
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evangelical mindset and belief system which eventually led in this whole dramatic leaving uh because I didn't
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believe enough things that I should anymore, right? It uh it resulted in me being told that I had to leave which was
00:22:12
a whole dramatic situation. Yeah, I can I can imagine. I also walked away from from religion. and just kind of was that
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slow slow burn of like I think I don't I call it like an unraveling for me like
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it was like once one thing kind of got pulled once the thread of like one thing got pulled like an example I give a lot
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of times is like the story of Noah and like the the legitimacy of it and like is it a parable or is it history right
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and if it's also history to what scope is Is it reality? Was it the whole world? Was it a a section of the world?
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And once I started to like question that, I kind of pulled I just kept pulling that thread. And I it was kind
00:22:59
of my undoing in a lot of ways, but in a in a good way. like I don't I don't
00:23:04
regret it, but I just it's interesting to look at that and be like, okay, that
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was kind of this start for this whole thing of starting to be like questioning the legitimacy of everything in the
00:23:16
Bible and everything that my pastors had told me and and starting to look at like
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other things. So now I sit in a place of like I still think I'm kind of spiritual
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and I still pull aspects of the Bible and I think that they're good and healthy and um you know examples of of
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being just a good human being but my overall power source if you will my higher being is not is no longer a god.
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It's just it's just humanity. It's just the the shared experience of humanity.
00:23:47
So, um, it's funny how people go to Christian colleges and then I feel like you either you either go way further
00:23:54
into it or you just that unraveling happens. Yeah, it does. And I just think like I think those places would have a
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lot more happy alumni 10 years later if there had been more nuance integrated into the belief system. I
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think a lot of us come away And we see the hardline like very literal fundamentalistics thought
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processes is just so ridiculous. Yeah. Uh disrespectfully using that word but just absolutely ridiculous as to you
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learn more and time goes on that you just can't really have a lot of faith in
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much else that's being said which is kind of the probably the not fair part.
00:24:37
Okay. But if someone had come along and had admitted the complexity or the struggles of scripture, much less just
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Christian morals and ethics, um I think as adults you'd have a little more respect at least for that individual and
00:24:55
belief system rather than now this kind of like get me as far away from this as possible sort of feeling that you have
00:25:01
now in your system once you kind of get out of it. So things are just a lot more
00:25:04
gray than I think we were raised to believe. is the black and white tendency is just it's
00:25:12
it's it's an interesting one. I had a conversation with a friend not that long
00:25:15
ago. We were talking about the binary of just the world we exist in. Um and and they are they are a non
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non-binary person. And so it was interesting to like talk to them and they were even pushing back on me
00:25:32
talking about like good versus bad and like things like that. And they're like
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that's just like that's your opinion. And that's but you're also still putting
00:25:38
that like black and white label on things. I'm like sitting here going like, "Oh my god, my brain hurts from
00:25:43
like trying to think like this because it's just been years and years and years
00:25:46
of always thinking it's like it's it's yes or it's no. It's black or it's
00:25:50
white." Like it's just it's one of those things. Yeah. And when you get to that
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place of like being able to be like, "Okay, no, there's a whole spectrum of
00:25:57
gray in the middle of that." That's I I argue that's where the fun begins because you're like there's just
00:26:04
so many things that like you can explore and and embrace and enjoy um and ask questions about and we don't need to
00:26:11
feel guilty about asking those questions anymore. Um at least I don't. That's
00:26:17
that's something I'm working on is like not feeling the guilt to be like I can
00:26:20
ask these questions and pursue something that's just different than what I was
00:26:24
brought up to believe. Yeah. You're no longer plagued by the constant um thought or fear. Am I doing the wrong
00:26:33
thing or the right thing? And like you said, thinking in black and white. Yeah. So, you asked everything you just
00:26:41
said. Yeah. So, after youth ministry, you you I'm going to say step out of that, but you leave that um in some
00:26:52
maybe not so nice uh some maybe not so nice ways, but what was the next step? I know like where where did you go from
00:27:00
there and where are we today? A couple places I think vocationally and then mentally. Um so I had in during that
00:27:08
time frame of youth ministry and my last four years of youth ministry were like my most successful years by far. Mh. Uh
00:27:14
which is why it was such an abrupt and harsh ending. And like the the big piece that ended up being the final straw was
00:27:20
once I expressed what was the word um uncertainty around the interpretation of the scriptures around the LGBTQIA
00:27:28
community. That's when they were like you're out gone. So that was that was
00:27:33
it. So my first I shifted during that time I was getting my license to be a therapist. I was going to school. Um I
00:27:40
kind of seen the writing on the wall a little bit that I wasn't going to be in
00:27:43
here forever. Okay. And thank God truly like that I did because I would have had
00:27:49
very little to fall back on. So I immediately hopped into that after that whole thing done was done and that's
00:27:54
been about three years now. And the first place I'd say mentally ended up was very angry place. Mhm. In a very
00:28:02
like burn this whole whatever this is down sort of situation and like didn't really have any way to
00:28:11
express that. And so thankfully I think kept a lot of that um coped with because I was probably in
00:28:20
a much more angry place. tried writing a couple books or chapters. Um I can't
00:28:27
remember the titles, but they had to do with like homeschooling or um evangelical experiences. Um I
00:28:34
can't remember it was it was some of them were humorous titles, but whatever.
00:28:38
Like I was working through it and then as time went on I kind of ended up more in that gray space of just kind of like
00:28:44
trying to burn this down is not worth my time. Yeah. and uh much healthier space now. But
00:28:52
yeah, the first year and a half was very angry. I I feel you. I a lot of my deconstruction happened and I was
00:29:00
working in a restaurant and I I would work this Saturday morning shift that was 5:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. and I worked
00:29:07
at a barbecue restaurant. So smoking meat, prepping sides, all that kind of stuff. And I would just listen to like
00:29:13
theologians and podcasts about like deconstructing and other just views on religion and things like that. And I'm
00:29:20
glad I was in a kitchen because I would get angry like you were talking about. I'd have I had this like really solid
00:29:26
anchor and I could just take it out on like you know whipping like potatoes or you know like you know uh like salting
00:29:36
meat basically and like punching these big old racks of you know brisket and stuff like that. Um
00:29:43
but yeah there was a lot of that like anger and even this show the the original version of the show
00:29:50
was angry. It was very much like the the new tag is like the good, the bad, and the ugly of homeschooling. The original
00:29:56
tag was just the bad, and the ugly. Um, it was very much like I just wanted to hear people all over their
00:30:04
homeschool experience. Yeah. And I totally get that. And it wasn't until I kind of like you you start to distance
00:30:10
yourself, right? And you kind of calm down after a little bit. You go, okay, like maybe not everything was bad. Well,
00:30:16
this is my this is my experience. Maybe not everything was bad. Yeah, there was some good mixed in there.
00:30:21
And let's bring that to the surface as well, you know. Um, we can still talk
00:30:25
about the bad and the ugly. We can talk about the things that that probably need
00:30:28
to change, but let's also not forget that there's like there's funny moments,
00:30:34
there's good moments. I learned a lot of stuff, you know, like I still Yeah, correct. felt, you know,
00:30:40
and so being able to highlight some of that as well was in there. Yeah, it was in there.
00:30:46
Sorry, I was as you were talking I decided to pull up my um working titles I was talking about and that one of them
00:30:52
the first one is a recovering homeschooler um the death of an evangelical golden
00:30:57
boy. That was a little dramatic. Love that. Uh the fragility of Christian intellectualism
00:31:03
um and 12 reflections on homeschooling was just a short version of that that I thrown together. But yeah, that was
00:31:08
those were the working titles as you can tell. A little a little aggressive dramatic. Yeah, I you know I could see a
00:31:14
New York Times bestseller in there somewhere. Maybe, you know, maybe a little retooling, but I I think it's in
00:31:18
there. Yeah, maybe. So now, so maybe I'll still write it someday. Yeah. Hey, you know, you you've
00:31:27
sat with it, you know, maybe you could come back, maybe, you know, tweak it just a little bit, you know, a little
00:31:31
less harsh. A little less harsh, but, you know, still in there. You know, you still need the call to action at the end
00:31:36
of it. You know, what's the what's the next step for people? So, so you leave
00:31:40
the church, get your license as a therapist, start working in therapy. What specific
00:31:47
arena of therapy do you work in? Yeah, I got into a couple unique spaces. Um, so
00:31:54
through a connection, I got into family therapy uh with a local community mental
00:31:59
health agency and doing their intensive homebased programming. So, I go to the family's homes to do therapy. So it's a
00:32:05
social work typically a social work role but we are doing therapy within it. Okay. Um so it's not like a CPS role but
00:32:14
a therapist role more in that sense but I mean the families we're working with I
00:32:19
mean nine out of 10 of them have like CPS involved at some point. So it's kind
00:32:23
of that that clientele. Um and in that world we came across some homeschool families that we worked with as well.
00:32:29
did some private practice um moonlight with some uh potentially moonlighting this some in a juvenile facility coming
00:32:36
up. But yeah. Well, so because one of the things you and I chatted about previously was the fact that yeah,
00:32:42
you've you now have like as a therapist been able to work with homeschool families who maybe are transitioning
00:32:48
their kids back into public school or transitioning kids from public school into like a homeschool environment,
00:32:54
things like that. But what are what are you seeing? Because like obviously like I'm 10 years removed from home school at
00:33:00
this point. Um and you're probably about the same. And so like what are what are
00:33:06
we seeing in the homeschool world today? And like what do you I don't know. I
00:33:10
guess I'll just leave it at that. What do what are we seeing when it comes to
00:33:13
that kind of environment now? And one like I've seen both sides. So I've seen
00:33:18
in I would say in youth ministry I saw a lot of very successful homeschool families. And now in therapy, I've seen
00:33:24
a lot of unsuccessful situations. Um, one, I would just say the scope of what is accessible to homesooled families is
00:33:31
so radically different, right, than it was 10 years ago. I mean, it in some instances, you might as well just call
00:33:37
it private school because that is probably more of what options the level of options that now are available. I
00:33:43
mean, instead of just one sport, you know, in Michigan like basketball, you now have like four or five you can
00:33:48
choose from and you can be active in it almost year round. you know, you have co-ops that actually have like educated
00:33:54
individuals who are going to present or teach some sort of topic that they're
00:33:58
actually like qualified to discuss. And so like you have start having more accessibility. And this granted this is
00:34:06
in a large city. I'm in the capital city of Michigan. So some of that's natural
00:34:09
because of the space we're in. So like to give homeschooling credit in its current state. Um there is a lot of
00:34:16
options. Yeah. Um but even then like options like that still typically involve some sort of
00:34:21
monetary or social connection. And so for those who are not successful in it, there still remains a pretty big theme
00:34:29
of isolation. And what is making them unsuccessful is a dynamic that I've seen happen in I
00:34:42
would say pretty much every homeschool family that I have known both successful and unsuccessful is one of the dangers
00:34:48
is like this emotional this unhealthy emotional inshment or reliance on my kids to regulate me.
00:34:59
So like you have a lot of time with your kids which is great. You get close they're close to you. You kind of get
00:35:08
applauded applauded as that as a healthy thing and it is clearly but then like when one person gets upset in that
00:35:16
family everyone is now upset with them. Like there's this kind of imshment like no
00:35:22
one's really emotionally functioning apart from each other a whole lot. So then when that goes south, it goes south
00:35:32
very quickly. So when somebody decides that they're going to start performing
00:35:36
behaviors in a poor way, it's like not only is it just a behavior of a kid I
00:35:42
have to manage, it's now a personal attack. It's now something that is like
00:35:46
devastating my identity as a parent or especially homeschooled parents who have a lot of pressure to feel successful and
00:35:53
now and the other siblings are getting pulled down in it and like this family drama
00:35:58
instead of there being a natural break where the kids go to school for eight hours a day. It's constantly around you,
00:36:05
right, all the time and you don't have separation from that, which means you don't have perspective.
00:36:11
You're not getting a break. And then that just goes to a potentially a very bitter place very quickly or an
00:36:17
apathetic place where you just throw your hands up and I'm like, I'm done.
00:36:20
Yeah. And we're just going to kind of coexist. And that relationship is getting saved when these kids get out of
00:36:29
the home and transition to public school. get some professionals to work with them because usually when things
00:36:34
blow up, school has either been not happening, happening very rarely or has been happening poorly enough that
00:36:40
they're not getting the education they deserve or need. So, there's professionals at school working with
00:36:44
them and that and now mom or dad are both finally have a break and are able to kind of emotionally separate and
00:36:50
recover and kind of have some independence from that space. So, like when that stuff
00:36:57
goes south, I just feel like it goes really south. to your point, it's like I've had multiple people on the show who
00:37:05
we've talked about the difficulty of of specifically usually mom because mom tends to do the
00:37:13
majority of the teaching, dad is out in the typical format. Dad is dad's working, mom's teaching.
00:37:19
And um but we we've talked about that the separation when kids get older and
00:37:25
like mom still doesn't know how to turn off like the teacher and still kind of
00:37:29
has that like attachment. Um and so even when like you're in college or you get
00:37:34
out of college and your mom is still just kind of like on you about stuff that you're like, "Mom, I'm not a kid
00:37:39
anymore. Like I'm not I don't need you to be teacher anymore." Um, I know
00:37:42
that's a little bit different than what you were describing, but like that's the closest I think I can relate
00:37:48
to just that like that thought process of like, man, your emotions being so intertwined that when when little Johnny
00:37:55
has a bad day, now mom has a bad day and dad's got a bad day and there's no you
00:38:02
need that break, right? You need like you were talking about like being able to send a kid away for a few hours a day
00:38:07
just to be able to like reset, maybe focus on yourself. That's important. I don't think a lot of people I don't
00:38:14
think a lot of homesooled parents know how to do like the self-love thing, like know how to take care of themselves
00:38:22
emotionally sometimes. And I think too like when you have people and not this is not every situation but there's
00:38:29
definitely a lot of homeschooling parents who one of one of the motivating factors emotionally is pretty much like
00:38:35
an anxious attachment disorder like the separation anxiety for them between them
00:38:40
and their kid um is really high right and then that gets moralized or supported by some like you know I'd
00:38:48
never send my kid to daycare cuz when they're there and they see me they cry
00:38:52
even though that's such a misinterpretation of the experience or like I wouldn't ever send my kid to the
00:38:58
public school and be apart from them. They need me. When the reality is is you need them, right? And that's a very big
00:39:04
difference uh and a very important perspective to remember is like your kids are actually probably functioning
00:39:10
independently from you fine. You know, nine out of 10 times. You know, you can have a conversation about
00:39:18
what is too much and you can try to figure that out, but you kind of have to see you kind of have to figure that out
00:39:22
by the experience of like how are your kids doing and functioning and developing and how are they relating to
00:39:27
other people and yourself. But I think a lot of these individuals because they are anxiously attached that
00:39:34
gets moralized and that's used as a motivator. And then when that day happens when kids grow up
00:39:40
and they do have to leave it's really starting to be evident that this was more about the parent than the kid,
00:39:47
right? And that becomes a rough experience. And then kids are trying to get away from that sometimes
00:39:55
and they're trying to really get away from that. Yeah. Which creates a lot of
00:40:00
hurt. Like why do you want to get away from me? Well, it's because you need me
00:40:03
to be okay and then I don't want to fill that role and that's not my role. And
00:40:08
that's a very oppressive role. Yeah. My mom and I talk about a lot about her
00:40:18
emotional health. Both actually both my parents, but one of the things that we've had to work through together was
00:40:26
the fact that she's like, I she recognizes that she was not an emotionally healthy person when she
00:40:30
started homeschooling and when my sister and I were little kids. And um and so something we've talked about and we've
00:40:36
had to like work through and and things like that. And she's like, I today when
00:40:41
she talks to parents who are like, I'm thinking about homeschooling, she's
00:40:45
like, okay, well, are you are you emotionally good? I think to your point, can you live without your kid? Like, can
00:40:51
you be are you your own individual person? Because I don't know that she really was that when she started
00:40:57
homeschooling us. And she became that as we got older. Um I think she healed a lot. I don't think that the transition
00:41:04
was terrible to adulthood, but um but it it's been one of those interesting conversations to have with her to kind
00:41:11
of be like, okay, like you know that this sucked like you you've seen that pattern in yourself or you know that
00:41:19
like you needed us or you just weren't emotionally good or like whatever the
00:41:24
the reason was that you were like just you were not 100%. and you would do that's the that's the
00:41:31
main thing you would change is you would be like, "Okay, let me be emotionally in
00:41:35
a better place and then we could homeschool and I think the experience would be drastically better." Um, I had
00:41:42
a friend on not that long ago and we were talking about she started homeschooling her kids and then they're
00:41:47
now in um public or private school. I'm blanking. But the reason she did that
00:41:53
was because she realized that she was like she was having issues. She was like, "I can't
00:42:00
regulate myself. I can't do anything and they're just here constantly and I have
00:42:05
no alone time and I have no anything." And as soon as they went to school, even
00:42:09
though it was hard for her, she started to be like, "Okay, I'm okay now. And now
00:42:13
I can be mom. I can be the better version of mom and I can go and advocate for my kids in school and make sure my
00:42:19
kids have the best education." And her kids are thriving. They're like geniuses. to your point about like the
00:42:24
moral justification that homeschooling gives, like where do you think that messaging comes
00:42:32
from? And maybe you don't know. I just I'm I'm interested like where do you think
00:42:37
that comes from? And then also like there's also this message of like public
00:42:41
school is bad and public school is evil. Like I I don't know. Like and and I think
00:42:47
homes school parents get that in their brain if they're like, "Oh, I don't I
00:42:50
don't want bad for my kids. So like, let me take them out and let me remove them
00:42:53
from that and I can do better at home." Yeah. I mean the first one the simple
00:42:59
question answer to that is I think some of that is the golden era of history sort of trad life.
00:43:08
Um I'm trying to think of the word for it but essentially making that sound like
00:43:13
it was some perfect desirable part of human experience that we need to go back to. um that the ones room schoolhouse
00:43:22
was probably the best school experience in North America and then everything past that sucks. You know, whatever that
00:43:29
not that it would be said out loud, but that's kind of like the idealization of
00:43:32
like Little House in the Prairie era of education um and the family involvement and all those things. I mean, I think
00:43:42
there's some like glorification of that that comes into it, but I think more of
00:43:46
it does come like statistically is like in the 70 percentile parents will talk about the public school being poor as a
00:43:54
reason they homeschool. Um, and I I think like like that's fair in a lot of circumstances,
00:44:01
but it's really important to get detailed on exactly what you mean by that because it can vary as much from
00:44:10
like the myth of people using a like cat litter box in the bathroom level of misinformation to something as specific
00:44:19
as like they feel like the teachers in their ability to articulate certain uh subjects is just not adequate or class
00:44:25
is so disruptive that you can't actually concentrate and learn or you feel like a
00:44:30
eight hour a day, 5 day a week sort of experience in school is not helpful for the development of a child which is a
00:44:35
good argument right like in itself like it's I don't I personally do not love
00:44:40
the pace and length of school for kids um just in my experience I don't I don't
00:44:46
think it's the right pace and time frame but a lot of times like people I talk to
00:44:52
do not have those specific details right It's some more abstract thought process
00:44:58
of my kid's going to become a druggie or they're going to get bullied, which
00:45:03
isn't necessarily a terrible thing, by the way. We can talk about that. Like,
00:45:08
or like they're going to get pregnant or they're going to start doing these
00:45:11
things that are very destructive. They're going to ruin their life. And they can usually hodge podge pick some
00:45:15
examples. But I can also hodge podge pick examples out of homeschool communities, too. It's like people are
00:45:20
people wherever they go. and the differences and like what you're going to have to deal with in a large
00:45:24
concentration of kids is is going to be different. Correct. Um but you're not
00:45:29
going to escape problems or and kids are going to find their way to do things they want to do. Like I know so many
00:45:35
homeschoolers that are very young and having sex behind their parents' backs
00:45:40
because they want to and they're going to find it, right? Like it just you're
00:45:44
not going to escape it. Yeah. So if that's what you think is going to happen, I would say you need to wake up
00:45:48
a little bit. I think if you're more of like concerned about the education format, I think I can get behind that a
00:45:53
little bit. But also like one of the things to that bullying thing that I've
00:45:57
noticed is like some emotional immaturity that comes out of homeschooling, particularly in my
00:46:02
experience as an individual as well. Like I did not have the capacity to deal with conflict
00:46:10
or people who were wrong or being mean because I hadn't dealt with it. Mhm. And
00:46:16
then you're 19 and you're getting hit with this for the first time and you're
00:46:20
kind of getting absolutely destroyed emotionally because you have no thick skin, right? And you have no coping
00:46:28
skill. You haven't developed a pattern for this and it's just blowing your
00:46:32
mind. And then you can either become, you know, a fawner where you have to try to make everybody happy because if
00:46:40
someone's angry with you, you deserved it potentially. That was your upbringing
00:46:42
growing up. or like you decide to go on the attack and you just decide you need to go like full like full into this
00:46:50
attack mode because you don't realize potentially the lack of seriousness or
00:46:55
the nuance of this whatever is happening. And so bullying absolutely sucks. And I'm not talking about extreme
00:47:02
bullying. I'm just talking about like dealing with rough people or conflict or
00:47:05
people who are trying to be mean is not always the worst thing in the world for kids to learn how to deal with as they
00:47:12
grow up. Yeah. I mean, I was having a conversation with my wife last night literally about the fact that
00:47:20
like I put this on YouTube like I that's that part of putting this show out is that it is open to criticism. It
00:47:29
is open to people being mean on the internet. And as we know, as history has shown us, the internet is not a nice
00:47:36
place. Um, and I've received some nasty messages and I've received some nasty things and
00:47:42
some push back and and sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's like it's somebody
00:47:46
who you can actually like be like, "Okay, we can have a conversation about this and it can be productive, right?
00:47:51
And we can maybe come to a middle ground somewhere." And other people just want
00:47:54
to be mean to be mean. Mhm. Because of my upbringing, I don't really remember being bullied. I
00:48:03
maybe have a little bit of a thicker skin than somebody who was truly isolated and only exclusively in their
00:48:08
home for most of their upbringing, but um I'm having to learn that tough skin
00:48:15
reality today where it's just like, you know, people are going to say mean stuff
00:48:20
and it's what you do with it and how you hold on to it that's like important.
00:48:24
It's like, you know, does this hold any weight? If not, like just you got to let
00:48:29
it go. Let it roll off your back. It's not, you know, it's not targeted to you.
00:48:33
They're a really unhappy person, you know, and that's that's what I keep
00:48:36
reminding myself is. I'm like, you know, people who are just mean to be mean,
00:48:40
they're not a happy person. They're not living their best life. And I'm out here
00:48:44
and I'm overall I think I'm a pretty happy person. Um, and I'm living a
00:48:48
pretty good life. So, um, I just have to remind myself of that sometimes of like,
00:48:55
but yeah, to your point, extreme bullying, absolutely not. I think, you know, parents need to step in for that.
00:49:00
But, you know, the real world slaps you upside the head sometimes. Sometimes you
00:49:04
get hit with that harsh reality of I mean, I brought up college professor told me to just basically shut up like
00:49:10
learn to be cool. That stung. That was not fun. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It it is. And I And I
00:49:19
you got to learn how to deal with that, not only in the moment, but afterwards. Yeah. And there are I'm I I guarantee
00:49:25
there are homesooled families that are isolated that just for whatever reason personality disposition just are
00:49:30
unbothered individuals. I'm sure that exists. Yeah. Um I run into that rarely.
00:49:35
I run into much more of a sensitive child because of the isolation uh than vice versa. So, I wanted to ask this too
00:49:44
because I've been thinking a lot about the direction of the show and the purpose of this show. And one of the
00:49:50
things that I want it to become is a support system potentially, not only for for those of us who were former
00:49:58
homeschoolers, you know, sometimes we just want to talk about our experience. You know, sometimes we want
00:50:03
to reminisce and be like we like we've been doing, right? Reminis about about
00:50:07
stuff, the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? But I also want it to be a place for people who are currently
00:50:12
homeschooling to come and say, "Okay, look, I can look at people who already
00:50:16
did it and how they ended up." Um, and so my question for you is really based
00:50:22
on your experience now with kind of being back in the homeschool community a little bit and and being, is there a
00:50:30
best way do you think that we can support this next generation of homeschool kids? Yeah. And I think I
00:50:37
don't know the impression I gave off, but my my guess is that if you were listening to this point so far, you
00:50:42
would think I was pretty like uh close to anti-homeschooling or don't think it's a good idea. Um that is not my
00:50:49
stance. Um I am critical. I would say like if you were to ask me about the public education system, it'd be a
00:50:55
different conversation. I tend to be pretty critical of a lot of things. Um, but I would sit like I think you can
00:51:02
totally do it well homeschool. I would say if I would remove one thing from the vocabulary of all the families and the
00:51:12
culture of homeschooling, I remove the negativity of the public education and private
00:51:18
system out of the vocabulary. Uh because not that you shouldn't have a understanding like I just said earlier
00:51:23
like criticalness of what is out there but when you position yourself as better than
00:51:33
or more caring parents than or a better education than or safer than I tend to think that creates a lot of
00:51:43
elitism in those who are successful which is its own emotional immaturity. or it creates a very big sense of
00:51:51
failure when that is not successful and you can no longer homeschool and you have to go back to public school. You
00:51:58
feel like you've given up and lost. Like at the end of the day, emotionally healthy parents having
00:52:07
emotionally healthy relationships with their kids regardless of where they go to school is going to be the biggest
00:52:13
impact on their success and future in life. are almost nothing. I would almost stake
00:52:20
my whole claim in that. Yeah. So, if you think the school system is going to save
00:52:24
you or hurt your kid, if you think homeschooling is going to save you or hurt save your kid or hurt your kid, I
00:52:30
think you got to look in the mirror first and that is what is most important. And so, take away this
00:52:35
elitism of like, well, we just really care about our kids and that's why or we
00:52:38
just really like they're terrible there. I'm like, anybody can learn how to deal
00:52:43
with anything and anybody can thrive in anything. like is your are you present as a parent? Do you care? Do you like
00:52:50
your kids and are you involved or are you going to use either one as an opportunity to
00:52:58
either have an unhealthy relationship or step away? Yeah, that to me is like the message that I would be questioning.
00:53:06
And so I think like homeschooling today perfectly fine. Like if you feel like it's great for your family and what you
00:53:12
want to do, do it. There's so many good things that come from that. If you want
00:53:15
to be involved in public school system, be involved and do it. Um, just don't think either
00:53:22
one's going to save or hurt you. Th This is something I shout from the rooftops
00:53:26
all the time on this show. Like anybody who's listened to any number of episodes
00:53:30
has probably heard me say like I I think the kids learn a variety of different ways. And I think if you want to be a
00:53:37
good parent, you got to find the way that works for your kid. And then you got to be the strongest advocate in
00:53:42
whatever arena that is. So it could be homeschooling, public school, private school, any whatever it is. Charlie's
00:53:49
backing me up. And Charlie's actually a professional people. So it's not just
00:53:52
some random dude on the internet shouting it from the rooftops. Like um this is somebody who's actually like
00:53:57
working with families to help them do that. Like I appreciate you for doing that. And family therapy is much needed
00:54:04
I think um in in our world today. Like so so thank you for what you do. just first and foremost, thank you. I
00:54:10
appreciate it. There's so many other ways and arenas we could take it and go,
00:54:16
but I think you just said it beautifully and maybe maybe we do a part two at some
00:54:22
point, but u yeah, is there anything else you want to leave? Anything that's
00:54:28
come up while we've been talking where you're like, "Oh, hey, this memory has
00:54:32
struck me or this thought or whatever." Is there anything else that we're
00:54:35
missing before we close it out? Oh, man. I I think I would just emphasize what I
00:54:42
just said maybe with a different word, help uh boil it down to even simpler ideas. Like I just think humility is
00:54:47
super key in as a parent, especially as you look outward to other institutions or families. Um there's a lot of factors
00:54:57
as you into family therapy that make things very complicated. And while there are solutions, um humility is a very
00:55:03
important cloak to wear in that process. And I think being humble parents makes you better parents and allows you to not
00:55:13
go down that road of either of that kind of emotional immaturity that we talked about. So that'd be my boil it down to
00:55:19
one word. I think it's really important to have that perspective. Very cool. I
00:55:23
love it. Okay. Where can people connect with you? I think my Instagram is my first name which is Charles
00:55:31
Irving which is Iving G. I'm gonna confirm that to make sure that is the case. Yes. And if you type in Charlie
00:55:38
Monroe, um that name may also come up, too. But Instagram is the best place to find me. Get a hold of me. Okay. Um he's
00:55:44
got some funny reels. You want to talk more? Yeah. They're from an old era that I'll
00:55:49
probably not be replicating. So, you can cringe with me. Yeah. Uh but man, I posted a lot during co that's when
00:55:54
that's when everybody became uh real and Tik Tok makers. Yeah. Hey, we've all got
00:55:59
cringy stuff on the internet, you know. I have a friend who keeps threatening. I
00:56:03
I have a whole movie from high school that we made um with music video and behind the scenes and all that stuff. Um
00:56:09
that I have a friend who keeps threatening. We're going to drop it. We're going to drop it on the internet
00:56:13
someday. Um so that's out there somewhere. But uh Charlie, this has been great. And yeah, if you got questions,
00:56:20
hit him up. I'm going to link it down in the show notes as well. So if if you
00:56:23
can't find it, there will be a link down below. Um or if you want to shoot me a
00:56:27
question, shoot me a question. exhausts [email protected] or exhisclub on Instagram, Tik Tok, um, pretty much all
00:56:34
the social platforms. But, uh, Charlie, this has been amazing. I appreciate you.
00:56:39
Thank you again for coming on and sharing your story and it's just fun. It's just fun to connect with other
00:56:45
exhomeschoolies. Same. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Till next week, we'll see you guys. All
00:56:51
right. Peace. [Music] [Music]