00:00:05
What is good. My ex homies Isy boy, Jacob Gooden,
and we are back for another week in the
00:00:09
ex, in the ex homeschoolers club house. Oh my gosh. That is a tongue twister
today for some reason.
00:00:15
But it is a okay. Uh, today I've got my new friend Mindy
in here and we're gonna talk a little
00:00:20
bit, not so much about homeschool, we
are gonna talk about homeschooling, but we're gonna, her education
background is a little bit different.
00:00:26
She was not a homeschool kid in
the traditional sense, uh, but she did do some online schooling.
00:00:31
So we're gonna talk a little bit about
that and then we're gonna get into homeschooling as it sits today, um,
and kind of the influence that it's
00:00:38
having over culture and our politics
in the US and things like that. So, without further ado and
without me boring too much, uh,
00:00:45
let me bring Mindy in here, Mindy. Welcome to the Ex Homeschoolers Club. Hi I'm, I'm giving you your honorary,
uh, homeschool badge, uh, for the
00:00:55
day because, uh, as you and I chatted
before, like you're not a, a homeschooler in like the traditional sense.
00:01:01
I know you had a untraditional education
background, but, um, walk us through a little bit of your educational background
and what part of it was traditional,
00:01:10
what part of it was untraditional
and, and let's, let's start there. so for elementary school, I went to
what was called a year round school.
00:01:18
So instead of having three months
off for the summer, we would have our breaks in the middle of the year.
00:01:24
So like I remember one time we would
have a break in November then maybe we would've had a break in February, but
then I remember we always had July off,
00:01:33
so it was still public school, but we
just had a bit of a different schedule. Um, we did not have quarters, we
did not get like a report card every
00:01:40
quarter we'd set had trimesters, so we Okay. card every trimester. Um, so that was, that was interesting.
00:01:47
And then middle school, I actually
went to two different middle schools. The first middle school I went to.
00:01:53
that one was pretty interesting because
it was a middle school that was known for having low standardized test scores.
00:01:59
And I remember the first year
for sixth grade as the year I was coming in, they were thinking
about possibly adopting uniforms.
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And a side note, all the research
on uniforms shows that it doesn't work, so it just doesn't work.
00:02:14
I remember my parents really did not like
the idea of uniforms and I didn't like it.
00:02:18
I remember we even had like a meeting,
um, before the school year started where like, I guess the principal thought we
were all gonna love it 'cause she was
00:02:26
talking about how uniforms are so great. And literally all the parents who talked
to her, they all were like, this is awful.
00:02:32
What are you talking about? Here's this article from the New York
Times that says Uniforms don't work.
00:02:37
So, uh, that was a doozy. But then again, in seventh grade at
the same school I remember for our
00:02:45
standardized testing, we actually
had an assembly where they like showed us a slideshow of JK Rowling
and John Lennon and Bill Gates.
00:02:54
And this was supposed to motivate us
to do well on the standardized testing. And what I later found out is that
they were trying to fire all the
00:03:01
teachers and hire new teachers. Keep in mind this was
during No Child Left Behind.
00:03:06
So they were trying to, you know,
really see things through the lens of standardized testing.
00:03:11
And ultimately the school did not do
very good on the standardized testing, but I had really good test scores.
00:03:18
And, um, the, what would've been eighth
grade, they were going to implement not uniforms, but a stricter dress code.
00:03:26
And I didn't like the idea
that I was gonna be punished for something I didn't do.
00:03:29
So ultimately I ended up going to a
different middle school for eighth grade. And interesting thing about eighth
grade, one of my friends that I
00:03:38
made, it was her first year there
too, and she was a homeschooler. This is her first year in public school,
but she was a pagan homeschooler.
00:03:46
I found Interest. her, she would've gone into
high school that year, but she tested into eighth grade.
00:03:52
Um, apparently this is very common amongst
public schools when homeschoolers are
00:03:55
coming back, usually they'll put you in
with the grade that responds to your age
00:04:01
group, but with high school, they'll test
you to see where you're at and then you'll
00:04:04
get placed in whatever grade you're in. And she got placed into eighth grade
when she should have been a freshman.
00:04:09
So that was interesting. And she claims that she had
all A's in her homeschooling.
00:04:13
But it's interesting that, you know, she
got placed, but apparently that's another
00:04:16
common experience with homeschoolers
going back to public school, is being placed a grade lower than they should.
00:04:22
Yeah, I, I had a guest on not terribly
long ago at this point, and she talked about, um, her mom kind of
got a little fed up when she was in
00:04:31
high school and was gonna send her
back to traditional public school. And she had to go get, she did the testing
and um, I think she was supposed to be
00:04:40
a junior and they were gonna place her
in freshman year, and she was just like. Screw this.
00:04:44
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not
going down that route. So, Yeah. I keep hearing this coming up, especially
with, because a lot of homeschoolers,
00:04:50
it looks like, do not take the
typical state standardized testing. They do their own testing and I guess
sometimes there's a misalignment
00:04:57
with the testing homeschooler take
versus the state standardized tests. Yeah, I'm not a hundred percent sure on
that, but, um, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't
00:05:05
be that shocked by it, to be quite honest. So, let's talk, let's
talk after eighth grade.
00:05:12
Now you're going into high school and
online school is now an option for you. What, like, what led you to, to decide
that or led your parents to decide that
00:05:22
that was what you guys wanted to do? I should probably piggyback
to elementary school.
00:05:26
In elementary school, I was
the kid who got bullied. Mm-hmm. there was one time where I actually
stepped outta class and the school
00:05:34
counselor came into my class and they
had their, she gave her own speech about how, hey, you should not be bullying her.
00:05:40
Like that's how bad it was. And, whenever I do tell people, like the
full extent of like what happened and
00:05:46
why I was bullied, everyone always asks
me, Hey, how come you weren't homeschool?
00:05:49
Or How come your parents didn't just
switch schools for elementary school? For me, that just wasn't an option.
00:05:55
It could really drive to
another elementary school. And my parents, um, they really
are not the kind of parents
00:06:02
who are able to homeschool and
certainly not homeschool well. So it just really wasn't an option.
00:06:06
So unfortunately I just
kind of had to deal with it. And I'll tell you right now,
it did not make me stronger.
00:06:11
It didn't my personality better. Any of the other things
you hear that make. You know, that says that
bullying is a good thing.
00:06:20
it was just awful and it, it still
affects me to this day, unfortunately. But yeah, that's, I was that
kid and I, I don't think it
00:06:29
was that bad in middle school. It's weird 'cause once you get
to like teenage years, bullying
00:06:33
becomes a lot more subtle. And especially if you're like me, I am
AUDHD, so combination autistic, ADHD,
00:06:39
it's a little bit harder to pick up on. But now looking back, I'm like,
oh yeah, it was happening in
00:06:44
a way that I didn't realize. And I think it was part of me
was scared to go to high school.
00:06:49
And also because, um, the feeder. Middle school, that was my first
middle school was to a different
00:06:56
high school than the high school
I was with in eighth grade. So I kind of feel like I was having
to choose which high school to go to.
00:07:02
And also I kept hearing about
homeschooling I'm only now finding out that online school and
homeschooling are kind of different.
00:07:10
And a lot of people don't think that
they're a part of the same, uh, category. But I remember thinking like,
maybe that's a good idea.
00:07:17
'cause I kept hearing you could
skip grades or graduate early or do things at your own pace and you
know, you wouldn't have to get up
00:07:22
early or follow a set schedule. So I'm like, that sounds really cool. I think I'd like to give that a go.
00:07:27
And that's what I said to my,
eighth grade guidance counselor. I was like, Hey, I'd like to give
this homeschooling thing a go.
00:07:35
And she did give me a packet
about homeschooling laws and regulations for my state.
00:07:41
Um, so. That's what makes it seem to me like
they're kind of the same, but finding
00:07:45
out there actually are different. But yeah, that's what prompted me
to go, I wanted to, uh, be able
00:07:50
to do things at my own pace and
not face my fear of high school. Really. what's so interesting about.
00:08:00
That is like, well one, I think defining
online school as a part of homeschool, like I I view it as a, as a umbrella.
00:08:08
Homeschool is a gigantic umbrella. And then inside of it there are obviously
all the different types of home education.
00:08:14
And so I grew up in very much, um, what,
what would be privatized home education,
00:08:21
which is my parents decided every piece
of curriculum that I was going to learn.
00:08:25
Uh, they built all of, not, not
necessarily built the curriculums, but they would purchase curriculums, but
they got to customize every piece of it.
00:08:32
So maybe math was one was we did
math C and then maybe history was abeka or something like that.
00:08:39
Right? So there was all these different things. Funneling into our home education.
00:08:44
That also meant that my parents
got to decide what we were focusing on history wise.
00:08:49
So, I mean, there was a whole
year in high school I wanted to just study war and understand,
uh, the American history of war.
00:08:57
And so we started in Revolutionary War. We ended, uh, I wanna say Vietnam
was kind of when we ended, uh,
00:09:03
that section, but things like that. So there was a lot of customization
as far as what was being studied.
00:09:09
And then on top of it, the
flexibility within our homeschool. Now that being said, there's
also things like charter schools,
00:09:16
or in your case, online schools
that give kind of a homeschool. Approach in that you get to be at home,
maybe you set your pace, those types of
00:09:25
things, but your parent is not the one who
is deciding this is the curriculum you're
00:09:29
gonna be learning, this is the history
you're gonna be taking or whatever. And so again, it it's this weird kind of
umbrella thing because as a kid I would've
00:09:37
said, no, you were not homeschooled. And even today, like I I, there's
a part of me that's like, that's
00:09:42
like Mindy was not homeschooled. However, that's not totally true
because I do believe it falls under
00:09:47
the umbrella of home education. Right. But like I said, it's
this gigantic umbrella.
00:09:51
And so, Mm-hmm. so talk to, tell me a little bit
about the online schooling like
00:09:56
system and how it worked for you. And may maybe give us like a little bit
of like a day in the life of it, just
00:10:02
for those of us who are unfamiliar. 'cause I mean, I barely did
any school on the computer.
00:10:08
I had a few classes that I took
on, on the computer, but for the most part it was not the case.
00:10:12
And also, I mean, I think
online education is probably. Even more different today than it was,
uh, for us when we were kids, but, uh,
00:10:21
'cause now we have things like Zoom and
video conferencing is way easier than it used to be and things like that.
00:10:25
So, but give me a little bit of a
snapshot of what it looked like. Um, so I actually got sent a laptop
from the school itself, so that's how
00:10:33
we did it, was through our laptop. And we also got sent a microphone
pretty much what you would do is you
00:10:37
would log on and do your classes. You'd have the classes you were
enrolled in, and it kind of
00:10:42
followed a similar public school
situation, but it was through. The computer and through the login
and once a week we would have what
00:10:50
was called class Connect, where you
would be like what we're doing right now through Zoom or through any other
sort of video conferencing where
00:11:00
we would all get together and meet
with our teacher that once a week. And we also had the option to go to a
tutoring center, a which was in person.
00:11:10
that I really liked 'cause I got
to connect with people in person. And I remember part of me thought
maybe I should just go every day.
00:11:18
And it's like, well if I'm gonna go every
day, shouldn't I go back to like school?
00:11:21
But I love the tutoring center And
here's another interesting thing at the tutoring center, that was the first time
anyone as a kid offered me cigarettes.
00:11:31
of the kids at the tutoring center
one time offered me a cigarette. Interesting.
00:11:36
to me that's like, if you're gonna be
in the homeschool world or homeschool adjacent, you could say in my case,
like don't think it's, they're gonna,
00:11:43
kids are gonna not experience those
kind of things because it very much is. Yeah.
00:11:48
it's interesting I bring that up,
the whole homeschool experience. 'cause I remember one girl in
the tutoring center who like, she
00:11:54
very much looked homeschooled. Like she wore long den of
skirts and had uncut hair.
00:11:59
Like you could tell that she was
here to get her high school diploma through like the public school system.
00:12:05
I guess her parents, you
know, thought it was okay. I remember one time in one of
those class connect sections.
00:12:12
a teacher mentioned that the two main kids
who went through the online high school
00:12:17
were either kids who were homeschooled
their whole lives, and this was how they were gonna get their high school
diploma, or kids who were teen parents.
00:12:24
And that apparently those two
groups of kids did not get along. And she was just trying to
tell us, Hey, get along.
00:12:30
all here to, you know, do our work and do
what we're supposed to do, so get along.
00:12:34
So that was interesting. I'm definitely, I guess, not
even a traditional online school student in that sense.
00:12:39
So that's, that's so. about. Yeah, you're talking about it, I'm
thinking, I'm like, oh my gosh.
00:12:45
It's, yeah, it's like the
sharks in the jets, right? You've got, like you said, you
have like more of a traditional
00:12:50
homeschool that probably is coming
from a very conservative religious background with the very much like
heavy purity, culture influence.
00:12:58
And then yeah, if you have teen parents,
uh, teen moms specifically in there, I mean, that goes against pretty much
everything that is being taught in
00:13:06
that kind of religious environment. So I could definitely understand
there being some kind of conflict.
00:13:10
Um, So do you feel like the online
school system worked for you or, or not? Like, because, um, I mean, you were
saying you really enjoyed going to the
00:13:20
tutoring and the one-on-one sessions,
which again is like you were saying, it's almost like, should I go every day?
00:13:26
Well then I'm basically just back in, in
public school, so, so were you finding that online was working for you where
you did have to hold yourself accountable
00:13:34
or was it really not the path for you? there were some classes that I
could do pretty easily, like I
00:13:39
sped through them within a week,
so it didn't take that long. But I think the biggest
thing for me was doing math.
00:13:44
Math has never been my strong subject and. It's interesting with going down the
rabbit hole of homeschooling in general.
00:13:51
There's this thing called the
homeschool math gap, where homeschoolers any, and this is the same true for
online schoolers, do worse in math.
00:14:00
The we have data going back to 2015
that online schoolers are about a year behind in math, and it's crazy to think
that that was exactly how it was for me.
00:14:09
I did lose a year in math because I
just could not figure out how to do it on my own, even with, uh, even through
the class connect sessions, even through
00:14:19
going to the tutoring center, because
again, it's like the tutors, I feel like, well, they are teachers, but
they're not necessarily specializing
00:14:26
in all the different subjects. So it's not like I can go there and be
like, here's the math teacher, here's
00:14:30
the history teacher, or like, it is,
it's whoever's available that day. So in that sense, I just,
I just couldn't do that.
00:14:38
which makes sense. And I, I agree with you. I think in the homeschool world, a lot
of, a lot of, something that gets talked
00:14:44
a lot about in the homeschool arena is
the fact of like the independence, right?
00:14:49
Especially for kids, the independence
of like, they start to be able to teach themselves things well.
00:14:56
You know, okay, maybe that's
true for some students. Some students have the, the capability
of doing that, but not every subject.
00:15:02
I mean, I'm like, I struggled in math too. I'm thankful. I had a dad who, he, he's a math whiz.
00:15:08
Uh, so he, you know, and he, and he
had the time to sit down with me and say, okay, hey, you're struggling
in division or whatever, let's
00:15:15
talk about it, kind of a thing. Um, but, but there are definitely
other areas where it was just
00:15:20
not, it was not my strong suit. It was not my parents' strong suit. And so those areas of
my life are just weaker.
00:15:25
Science is a big one for me
that I'm still piecing together. Like, what did I miss here?
00:15:31
Um, and, and it's, it's hard because since
science is not my thing and I've never
00:15:36
enjoyed it all that much, it's hard even
as an adult, even as almost a 30-year-old
00:15:39
man to go, okay, I need to learn. I wanna learn this. I wanna learn this basic
scientific principle.
00:15:45
So, um, so there's that. I think, uh, I'd be interested to
know, uh, from your perspective,
00:15:52
I, I kind of am interested in what. Why you've become so interested
in the homeschool world?
00:15:58
Because I, like, I get it from a, a
homeschooler like me's perspective who had 10 years in it where I definitely
was like, you know, now I'm, I'm
00:16:10
a, I'm over a decade out of it. And so I think there's just been a lot
of learning of, of myself and my, my
00:16:16
childhood where I'm like, okay, I'm
interested to know, did this hurt me? Did this harm me?
00:16:21
Those types of things. But I'm interested for you as someone who
primarily went through public school and
00:16:26
then had this year of online education
that we're, we're gonna put it in the, in the homeschooling umbrella, under
the homeschooling umbrella this year of
00:16:34
homeschool For you, why has that been,
why is that such an interest to you now of understanding the homeschool world?
00:16:41
I think when you're 10 years or so out
of being in high school or college or whatever your education was, that's when
you really see the results of how it went.
00:16:55
And after my year of online school, I
ended up going back to public high school.
00:17:01
But after two years there, I ended
up dropping out and getting my GED. And there's a part of me that thinks,
you know, had I just gone straight
00:17:07
to a public high school, I could have
gone the whole four years graduate. And perhaps the whole trajectory of
my life would be completely different.
00:17:16
Um. You know, looking back at the
whole thing, I'm just like, this really shouldn't have happened.
00:17:23
And that definitely prompted
me to look more into this. And then it's like there's this
whole world, but also we are now
00:17:31
at a point where 6% of kids in the
United States are being homeschooled. And that's way more than
it was when we were kids.
00:17:41
I think it was only about 1%, but now
it's shot up to 6%, especially post COVID.
00:17:45
And, but also we have at least three
generations of adults, almost four. We've got, you know, gen X, who
was really the pioneer generation,
00:17:55
and then millennials who kind
of perfected it, if you will. And now you've got Gen Z and pretty
in just a couple years, you know,
00:18:01
gen Alpha's gonna be adults, which
means you're gonna be talking to some former Gen Alpha homeschoolers, which
that's gonna be interesting to see.
00:18:07
Yes. And I'm, I'm just looking at this
thinking like, if I'm having these issues,
00:18:12
as someone who went through a very. form of homeschool adjacent
education, struggling.
00:18:20
What is it like for everyone else who
went through something different where it's like your mom taught you algebra
at the kitchen table sort of situation
00:18:28
And it's hard to tell because it feels
like there's two different camps. There's either the camp of people who
are like, homeschooling was amazing.
00:18:35
It's the reason I am who I am today. These are the kind of people that
are promoted by homeschooling
00:18:39
organizations as, you know,
evidence that homeschooling works. And then you've got the other
people on the other end of the
00:18:44
spectrum who are like, homeschooling
is the worst thing ever. No one should be homeschooled.
00:18:48
You should make homeschooling illegal,
and you don't often get the, the middle ground, which by the way,
I think you're doing a wonderful
00:18:54
job at bringing in people with that
middle ground perspective because, you. you know, ev everything, we don't really
don't get that middle ground perspective,
00:19:01
but it's just now we're, because there's
so many adults who were homeschooled, we're seeing the result of of that.
00:19:08
And we need to talk about the good,
the bad, and the ugly of it all, let me, let me tap into that just
a little bit because I think it,
00:19:15
it's really interesting 'cause
at the time of recording this. One of the things I've been, I
think, wrestling a little bit
00:19:22
with, of, of this show is, is I
have, I get both sides of the coin. I get the, I try to be in the
middle, like you were saying there.
00:19:31
I think there's some good, I think there's
some bad, and I think there's smugly,
00:19:34
but I al but I, it's really interesting
because I get hit from both sides. I have the people who tell me, well,
you only talk about the negative.
00:19:41
Okay. That can be valid. We, we provide criticism on almost
every episode of the homeschool world.
00:19:48
Um, but we also talk about
sometimes the fun stuff, right? There was school dances for me.
00:19:53
There was, there was,
there's a lot of fun moments. I was, I was part of a mime team.
00:19:58
I played paintball and airsoft with
my buddies like in the middle of the week and, you know, stuff that nobody,
I, I've been to Disneyland on a school
00:20:08
day and done school at Disneyland like. Stuff like that. That is really fun and, and was
a positive, I think, experience
00:20:15
in my homeschool world. But then there's also the negative,
like I was saying with science.
00:20:19
Science not a strong suit for me. Well, there's a criticism there. We can provide better education.
00:20:24
I also get hit from the other
side of people who are like, you're not anti homeschool enough.
00:20:28
Yeah, you don't mind. yeah. I, I'm not saying that your situation
was abusive or that homeschooling in
00:20:34
general is abusive, but one of the
things you hear from people who were in abusive situations is that it's not
always, you're being like, locked up in
00:20:42
the basement, chained, and it's awful. A thousand percent of the time you, you'll
have the experiences where you have people
00:20:48
who, you know, went to Disneyland one Right, even every year, but they were
still in an awful situation.
00:20:54
So, you know. It, it, there are those weird things
and that also kind of clouds your
00:20:59
memory 'cause you're like, yeah,
but I did this and 'cause not everyone gets to go to Disneyland.
00:21:04
So you may be right. was I really in a bad situation
if I went to Disneyland? Because, you know,
00:21:09
Yeah. it's also interesting to bring that
up too, because one of the, we could maybe talk about this more a little
bit later, but one of the stories that
00:21:17
sticks out to me, 'cause I one time. Was in a Facebook group of former
Evangelical Christians, and I asked
00:21:23
them, Hey, um, I am someone who
is curious about the homeschooling movement becoming more common.
00:21:29
And I know this is a former evangelical
group, so there's a lot of us here who were probably homeschooled.
00:21:34
What, what, what's everyone's experience? And one of the stories that really
stands out to me is this girl who
00:21:39
was a former, what we would today
call a van lifer, a van life kid, the kids who like travel in vans or
00:21:45
Right. All over the country. And she talked about how she had all these
amazing experiences that nobody gets to
00:21:51
have, that she feels like her education
was neglected to the point that when she
00:21:57
speaks to people in person, they assume
that English is not her first language. So that, that's gotta be tough.
00:22:03
'cause it wasn't bad a hundred percent
of the time, but on the other hand, your education was severely neglected.
00:22:08
right. Well, and and the emphasis that
was put on what she was learning is maybe not the pro the proper things.
00:22:14
Right. And I think that's, I think that's
where I sit with a lot of things currently is like, I believe that
home homeschool can be a very, a
00:22:24
good, a good solution for kids. I think that public school can
be a good solution for kids.
00:22:27
A private school could be a
good solution in charter school and all these different things.
00:22:31
There are many different
types of education. I think all of them can be good. And I think it's our job, like you
were saying, with all the generations
00:22:38
that have come through these things. At this point, it's our job to
help shape the, the laws and the
00:22:43
structure of how that's gonna look. And so I'm a huge advocate for a little
bit more guardrails in the homeschool
00:22:49
world, so that girls like that who,
who do have the van life experience, which can be very fun, but also, uh.
00:22:58
van Life moms too. Yes, I have. And so, but they also can have
the guardrails of saying, but
00:23:04
also it's important as a society,
we've decided math, science, English are important things.
00:23:10
And that child development, you
know, gets us to these certain points by these certain times.
00:23:15
And so I think that there, it's a
hard thing to regulate because, you know, every, every kid is different.
00:23:21
But I do think that there
are some, some guardrails and things that we can put in place.
00:23:26
And I think universally, I think most
people can agree there are just certain things in life that are important to know.
00:23:32
And I maybe call me an optimist, maybe,
uh, 'cause I'm sure there are people out there that are like, the, the
unschooling folks I know definitely
00:23:40
are like, no, my kid is gonna learn
what they wanna learn, when they wanna learn it, how they wanna learn it.
00:23:44
It's like, well, we do need, I
think need some structure in there. That's my, that's my opinion.
00:23:49
And that's. unschooling families will do formal math. I, I've noticed, again, it seems
like they've also picked up on
00:23:55
the math thing where they're
like, we do need to focus on math. Yeah, well, it's really interesting.
00:24:00
So I'm currently reading a
book called Homeschooled. Um, it came out the end of last
year, uh, by Stefan Merrill Block.
00:24:06
And it's, it's really interesting
because his story is one of getting pulled outta school.
00:24:14
Um, I'm trying to remember exactly
why, the reasons why, but part of it is like, it seems like his mom
has a little bit of depression.
00:24:22
Um, she's struggling with some
things and so he's around. What's really interesting is the
emphasis that she puts on math, and
00:24:28
she's really good at math to the point
where as time progresses, she is a math tutor to all these other kids
and they come over to their house.
00:24:36
And so he, he has no problems with
math, um, or so it seems, uh, because his mom is really good at math and
she really puts a huge emphasis
00:24:44
on math being important for him. But when it comes to everything
else, it's really about.
00:24:50
Just reading books or doing these
flashcards and kind of having, he has some understanding of things.
00:24:56
And I'm currently at the point in the
book where he has now gone back into the public school system and he's starting
to realize the, the holes that exist
00:25:05
in his education and he's trying to
play a little bit of catch up there. And so, but when it comes to
math, he's all good, you know?
00:25:10
And so I do think that
that's an interesting thing. And so I would be fascinated to know.
00:25:16
subject. Apparently Yeah. Like I, I, table just about homeschool math. Why is math the thing that
everybody's like, we have to
00:25:24
do math, we have to nail that. is so structured and it's not something
that you can really learn on your own.
00:25:31
'cause I feel like with reading or
history or science, as long as you can read at, at least at, say, a, a third
or fourth grade level and you know how
00:25:38
to use a dictionary and you know how to
look up stuff, you're, you could probably
00:25:41
be let loose in a library somewhere. Although, uh, with the current state
of homeschooling, a lot of people are
00:25:47
very inter-library, as I have found out. Um, but other than that, you could maybe
teach yourself some things in that regard.
00:25:54
But when it comes to math, I feel like
that's just something that you, you can't just let a kid learn by themselves.
00:26:00
Yeah. No, that's a good point. Is it, it does feel like
it's the one subject that is.
00:26:07
It just requires the most of, like that
passing down of information in a more traditional teaching setting where Yeah,
to your point of like, if you know how
00:26:15
to read, you can kinda learn anything. Uh, you can learn anything else
pretty, pretty easily if you try.
00:26:22
I think it would be, I, I'd be
interested to know your take on like, because I feel like, like you said,
6% of kids are now homeschooled.
00:26:30
2020 I think is a big result of kind of
the spike in interest in homeschooling. Um, but I think even more than that,
it's, it's been interesting to start
00:26:43
to learn and, and look through some
of the, some documentaries on how. It's been a long time in the making that
I feel like the seed was planted of like
00:26:53
homeschooling being this kind of solution. Um, and maybe an indoctrination of, of
getting kids to a point where then they
00:27:03
start to take, uh, political office,
they start to have positions of power in our, in our culture and in our, uh,
even just our micro societies, right.
00:27:12
Of our towns and things like that. And so I'm interested to know if
you've got any thoughts on that,
00:27:17
because like you were saying,
we're four generations in now. The millennials, uh, or the Gen Xers,
the millennials, uh, and Gen Z, uh,
00:27:25
I'm a cusper, so I'm right in that like
millennial Gen Z uh, space where, um, but it, it definitely is very interesting
because yeah, I'm seeing more and more
00:27:34
people kind of, yeah, come to power. And even, even as a kid, I remember being
kind of told like, you, you guys are the
00:27:42
generation that's gonna shape the world, Yeah. know? So I'm interested if you
got any thoughts on that.
00:27:47
yeah. Absolutely. Like one of the things I noticed going
down this rabbit hole is it almost feels
00:27:51
like homeschooling is a pipeline for. like Alec, the Heritage Foundation,
H-S-L-D-A Alliance, defending Freedom.
00:28:00
'cause you're, you go through homeschool
with their homeschool curriculum, you then go to like Patrick Henry College,
which was founded by Michael Ferris or
00:28:10
Harding or, uh, Hillsdale or any of these
other big conservative universities. And then you get picked up there either
going to conservative law schools.
00:28:21
And interesting about that. I, I had someone say that getting a
law degree is actually pretty easy for
00:28:26
homeschoolers because of homeschool debate
or, um, being made to defend your stance.
00:28:31
So I thought that was easy. So when you hear about homeschool
lawyers, um, you could maybe argue
00:28:37
that homeschooling is a training
ground for conservative lawyers. And then through there they go on to
work for these big, uh, conservative
00:28:45
organizations that are now shaping policy. you might be onto something. 'cause I did take speech
and debate when I was a kid.
00:28:51
Um, and I think there is kind of, it
doesn't, what's what's interesting about some of the conversation inside
the homeschooling world of, of, um, I
00:29:03
think there are a lot of stereotypes
that get put on homeschoolers of like, um, they're kind of the weird antisocial
kids we have to like, defend ourselves.
00:29:13
Um, you know, big government is coming
for homeschoolers, those types of things.
00:29:18
A lot of times that messaging, sometimes
that messaging is coming from inside the house, but sometimes it's just
coming in, coming from the other
00:29:24
homeschool, um, community in general. And so it is really interesting
because like I grew up in a time
00:29:34
where homeschooling was not. Uncommon enough in our area that like
I didn't fear going to the store at 10
00:29:41
in the morning and, you know, being,
having a truancy officer called on me, that was not something I was afraid of.
00:29:47
Um, but previous generations. That may have Right. the windows. Don't Exactly. Hours.
00:29:53
Stay inside, exactly, I didn't have that fear. And so there definitely, but there
was the level of like, if someone does
00:30:01
stop you and they do question you,
having that kind of defense ready to say, well, I'm homeschooled and I did,
I did all my school yesterday, or I
00:30:09
worked ahead, or, you know, whatever. Um, so it is kind of an interesting
thing that you bring up that
00:30:13
like maybe there is that level of
like, we are taught to defend our homeschooling beliefs in the system.
00:30:20
And, and, and so that then leads us
to become lawyers because we just have years and years and years of
already fighting, um, that stance.
00:30:28
And so you might be onto something there. Uh. It's just something I've noticed. I'm just like, Hey.
00:30:34
This is leading to this. This is leading to that. Yeah. no other form of homeschool math.
00:30:38
This, the math of homeschool leads
to defending conservative policies. right. Well, and I think, um, what, what
another, another thing I found
00:30:49
interesting this past year, I, I watched
the Shiny Happy People documentary, Mm-hmm.
00:30:53
series and, uh, both seasons of that. But specifically the first season, Mm-hmm.
00:30:59
find it really interesting how throughout
the whole thing, you, you kind, they kind of hint at, um, uh, the Duggar
dad, I'm trying to remember his name.
00:31:08
Uh, b was it Bob? Uh, Jimbob. I Jim? Bob. Jim. Bob, yes. Jimbo. he, um, how he, he was a, uh, politician
and then he, he doesn't get reelected
00:31:20
and then he's running again for, for
political office when his son, uh, gets caught with child pornography.
00:31:26
Uh, surprise, surprise. But also how his son had also kind of
entered the political sphere and, and just
00:31:33
in general, how kids in their homeschool
community were kind of being taught and pushed into a political atmosphere.
00:31:40
And that's not something that my
parents definitely pushed on me. They were, my parents definitely
were like, whatever you wanna
00:31:47
pursue that's, that's on you. Um, but one of the interviews
that I thought was interesting
00:31:52
in that season is, um. Uh, Alex or Brett Harris who, uh,
for, for people who have listened
00:31:59
to the show, you know, that I
talk about, I kiss dating goodbye. Uh, Alex and Brett are Josh Harris',
younger brothers, and they had a
00:32:06
movement, uh, more from our generation
called the Do Hard Things Movement. And they had written a book
and it really surrounded around
00:32:15
this idea of young people doing
very hard and impossible things. They would always tote this story
of a guy who, uh, sailed around
00:32:25
the world in a sailboat at like. Uh, he was between 16 and 18 years
old, so like insanely young to be
00:32:32
doing this, um, kind of a thing. And, but it was all these stories of
young kids doing these impossible things
00:32:38
and mixed in there would be stories of
young kids being involved in politics and going right and, and going to
Washington DC and presenting before,
00:32:48
you know, uh, this board of whatever,
or this committee group or whatever. And so, but what I find interesting is
like, it, it kind of lends itself, I
00:33:01
think, to the speculation that we're
making of like, it also Alex and Brett famously homeschool kids, their
dad huge in the homeschool world.
00:33:08
Um, but does it lend itself to
this idea that homeschool kids are intentionally being kind of raised
and groomed to take political spaces
00:33:19
to push forward a conservative ideal? I'm kind of thinking yes. It's interesting that you have, um,
legislative days in almost every state
00:33:29
where you have homeschool kids go to
their state capitals and either play music and show their test scores,
which they're not real test scores.
00:33:36
But, you know, as a way of saying, see,
we don't need government regulation. Look at our test scores and
how much, they're so much
00:33:42
better than the public schools. They're not, they're all fake. That's another thing I feel like I
wanna shout from the rooftops, is
00:33:48
that homeschool test scores are fake. The EM brewer has no clothes. Your test scores are fake.
00:33:56
I don't know how long ago it was, but
in Idaho we have this thing called pie day where homeschoolers make homemade
pies and serve them to lawmakers.
00:34:04
So they're bribing them with pie
they're there to say, uh, you know, we don't need government regulation,
we don't need the vouchers.
00:34:11
'cause that's another thing happening now
is now that states are offering vouchers
00:34:15
for private school, there's the talk of
should they also go to homeschoolers? But then you've got some homeschoolers
who are saying, no, that's
00:34:21
just more government intrusion. And when government gives you that money,
then they're gonna start putting on
00:34:25
more regulations and we don't want that. So you've gotta keep everything private.
00:34:30
So that's all fun. But, and even the idea that, I don't
know if you did this, but apparently
00:34:37
You'll have kids who are asked to write
letters, handwritten letters to their state lawmakers or national lawmakers,
to say, Hey, thank you for all you do.
00:34:47
We love having our homeschool rights. So you, you really are grouping,
at least in the conservative
00:34:53
Christian form of homeschooling,
it does feel like you are grooming kids to, uh, you know, number one.
00:35:00
Very involved in politics, but
also yes, to, to take office. I, I definitely agree with that.
00:35:05
'cause I think, like we've been
saying, it, it's, it does feel like this, this push to do these things.
00:35:14
And, and I think, you know, organizations
like H-S-L-D-A that fight for the rights for parents to home, educate
their children, um, to keep things, to
00:35:25
keep the government's hands really out
of it, um, in a lot of circumstances. Um, you know, I, I believe it's
like it's 40 something odd states.
00:35:35
It might be 48 of the 50 states. Like you can be a convicted,
uh, child, child sex offender
00:35:40
and still homeschool your kids. Um, a lot of, a lot of states, um. You can, uh, have an active CPS
investigation on your family,
00:35:49
pull your kids outta school
and start home educating them. And so there's a lot of these
things that are like very, in my
00:35:56
eyes, very common sense, right, of
like, as a society, we should say that's, that's bad, that's, that's
wrong, and we should not allow that.
00:36:03
Um, and in the same way, going back
to my point before of like, I also think as a society we can come to some
kind of agreement, uh, maybe this is
00:36:12
very optimistic of me, of what are
important things that children should learn in the, in the school system and
e even if it's just a very bare bones
00:36:19
understanding of like, Hey, this level
of math is important to, to survive as a human being and this level of English
and science and things like that.
00:36:28
Um, I do think we can get there. Maybe that's super optimistic of me. Um, but we also.
00:36:34
Like you were saying, places
like H-S-L-D-A very much push for kids to also write those letters
to, to be vocal about it, right?
00:36:43
Because our legislation and
our legislators, they see that and they go, okay, cool.
00:36:48
We're doing the right thing. Right? They are getting that affirmative,
um, uh, language to them.
00:36:54
And so I think also it is equally as
important that those of us who want to see other things take place, I
would like to see much more of the
00:37:02
voices of children, uh, and the rights
of children, uh, being talked about in, in school systems and access to,
00:37:09
Right, things, uh, uh, like mandated
reporters and standardized testing and things like that.
00:37:15
Those are things I push
much more, uh, hard for. It's like we equally have to
write them letters saying, Hey,
00:37:21
we want to see these changes made. Um, and that's. That's, I think what's interesting
about the conservative homeschool
00:37:29
group is like they are very
actively involved in providing that. Um, where the rest of us are
like, just do this thing.
00:37:38
We say it once and then it's like,
okay, I said it, it's out there. You know, it's like, no, we gotta say
it over and over and over again because
00:37:44
H-S-L-D-A and conservative homeschool
groups are gonna continue, um, saying it over and over and over again.
00:37:49
They're gonna drown your voice
out if you don't also speak up. I don't know if you know about Ryan
Stoller, who founded Homeschool Anonymous
00:37:56
and was one of the founding members
of the Coalition for Responsible Home Education, but he, he said a lot of
the same things you said, and he'd be a
00:38:04
great person to have on the podcast too. By the way. I think you should reach out to him
and he, he is also talked about the
00:38:09
going to the state houses and being
paraded around to lawmakers that it feels like you have to be on, even
though a lot of homeschoolers are not.
00:38:18
not. Okay. Um, he's talked a lot about, especially
substance uses and thoughts of suicide
00:38:24
and just people not having a good time,
but feeling like they can't say it because we've gotta defend this one thing.
00:38:31
And if you say one wrong thing, they're
gonna regulate you into non-existence. Yeah.
00:38:36
And I think, I think what's hard about
this conversation that we're having is obviously it comes off kind of
negative in a lot of senses, right?
00:38:48
We wanna see change, we
wanna see it be better. That's, I think, the ultimate
goal of this conversation.
00:38:53
And the re and the way we do that is talk
about the things that aren't working. And, um, and, and that can come off
as, as really negative, but I promise
00:39:02
you, I promise you folks, it's not,
it's not trying to be negative. It's just trying to say maybe this
didn't work the way that you think
00:39:09
it's going to work, or it's not
working the way you want it to work. Um, and so let's just change this, let's
change the formula a little bit and, um.
00:39:17
And make it better for the next
generations of homeschoolers. It's part of why I wanted to have you on
this show too, because I think, like I
00:39:25
was saying, like we were talking about
earlier, the different types of home that exist under the homeschool umbrella,
00:39:31
Mm-hmm. it is important to acknowledge
that online school, uh, is a thing. And a lot of the same things that can
go unchecked in a private homeschool
00:39:42
environment can probably also go unchecked
in the online school environment. Um, and so because you're at home, so
even though you're going to tutoring,
00:39:51
even though you're, you're doing those
things, I'm sure that all of a sudden you, the socialization has gone down in
your life at that point, I'm assuming,
00:39:59
Oh, and I'm an only child too, right? pretty much had very little, and even
though I did voice lessons and theater,
00:40:05
Right. it really was not enough socially,
it, especially as a teenager, I was. 1415. So I, I was just
there by myself pretty much.
00:40:16
And this is another reason why I think
online school needs to be thought of as being under the homeschool umbrella
because we do face the same issues.
00:40:25
Um, as I've been doing more digging,
I've found, you know, people who've gone through public online high school
and they had the exact same issues that
00:40:33
a lot of people who were, you know,
independently homeschooled or privately homeschooled or even went through private
online schools are facing because you're
00:40:41
more vulnerable to a lot of things. Right. Um, and what are the pushbacks. You'll hear is that well, kids
in public school get abused.
00:40:50
Kids get abused by teachers,
kids get abused by coaches. Uh, kids don't always get, uh, you
know, if you are being abused at
00:40:59
home, it doesn't always get reported. No one always says anything. the thing is that in public school,
if teachers even so much suspect
00:41:07
something they have to report, uh,
even if it doesn't go anywhere, they have to say something.
00:41:13
And, uh, I feel like within the homeschool
movement, there's this big fear of CPS and it has been for a long time.
00:41:19
It, I, I thought it interesting that as
in, in the seventies is when all 50 states
00:41:25
started to have to create CPS, their own
child, whatever their version of CPS is.
00:41:30
And that's also when the
homeschooling movement started to really come to fruition.
00:41:34
Well, maybe not to fruition, but
that's when it started to become more mainstream in the seventies.
00:41:39
And that aligned with
when, states created. Their agency to investigate child abuse.
00:41:47
And that's also when you saw all this talk
that like, oh, they're gonna come get you.
00:41:51
Even though to hs, DA's own data
homeschoolers are less likely to be targeted or not targeted, they're less
likely to have a CPS investigation.
00:42:01
Um, I think HS LDA says they only
get 300 calls a year because of social workers at their door.
00:42:09
And keep in mind that they have a
hundred thousand member families. So that's only point 30%
of their total member base.
00:42:18
And allegedly 37% of kids will
have a CPS investigation by the time they're 18 nationwide.
00:42:26
I know that sounds like a lot, but
keep in mind that would include people just making a phone call or
a social worker from a hospital, you
00:42:33
know, coming in 'cause you broke your
leg just to make sure you're okay. Um, but.
00:42:37
That's the big thing. And it's not just H-S-L-D-A, there's
other law firms that advertise their
00:42:42
services, um, that isn't even necessarily
homeschool related, but they only accept Christian homeschool families
if they have a CPS investigation.
00:42:50
'cause it wouldn't make sense
to have a firm where someone pays a fee once a month.
00:42:54
That is less than for the whole
year, the cost of a lawyer's time. 37% of your, your, your clients
are gonna be in a case that
00:43:05
just wouldn't make sense. But I you, you're just not being seen. Because if you're at home all day and
no one's seeing you, and even if you're
00:43:15
going to co-ops or if you're only
socializing with other homeschoolers, they're not gonna say anything,
especially if they don't believe that
00:43:21
what you've been through is abuse. Especially if there's someone who
follows, like the Michael Pearl style of
00:43:26
Discipline, or James Dobson or Gary Ezzo. You're in the same social circle. They're not gonna say anything.
00:43:32
Yeah. Well, and to about like public school. Well, and even mentioned. Even when you were being bullied in,
in school, you had a, a teacher or,
00:43:44
or a, or a counselor come in and speak
to all the students and tell them to knock it off, whether they listened or
not that, but that did happen, right?
00:43:52
But in a, in a homeschool world
that doesn't necessarily take place. Bullying, uh, the homeschool
community I grew up in, we had a
00:44:00
fairly large homeschool community,
lots of students, so socialization was not really an issue for us.
00:44:06
It's very different, obviously, for
rural homeschoolers who you could argue are also probably a higher likelihood
of, uh, of needing access to mandated
00:44:15
reporters and things like that. But, but, um. Bullying existed even for us. And it, it, it is interesting the way
that it would get, I, I would argue to
00:44:26
some degree, sometimes swept under the rug
of just, it never really got addressed.
00:44:32
Um, and then you tack on the
religious aspect of just like, forgive and forget kind of a thing.
00:44:37
And, and it's, you know, so it definitely
not the greatest situation, I will say for the, for the bullying stuff.
00:44:44
And that's not every family, but it was,
it was a, it was a portion of it that it just didn't really get addressed.
00:44:50
And so it's, it's interesting today
to even speak to people who are like, they were equally as bullied
probably to, to you, but like they,
00:45:00
and they're like, there was never
anybody who ever spoke up for me. It always got swept under the rug.
00:45:05
And so, you know, and that's not to
invalidate your experience, that's just to say that it bullying exists
regardless of, of where your kid goes
00:45:14
to school or how they're educated. Yes. I think that's important to say
too, like full, um, homeschooling
00:45:19
in any way is not bully proof. It does exist. In homeschool co-ops or in tutoring
centers, even though I didn't
00:45:28
experience bullying at tutoring, but
you know, it's definitely happened. Or even amongst families,
00:45:33
Hmm. know, I'm obviously an only child,
but you know what, if I was alone with siblings who were abusive or
bullying and there was nothing to be
00:45:41
done about it, and now that we're in
this era where, um, there's so much. You're seeing that the conservative
Christian fundamentalist worldview
00:45:50
is now taking over politically
that's also bleeding in socially. And I'm seeing a lot of people saying,
bring back bullying when it comes
00:45:57
to, you know, trans kids and queer
kids that are now out in the open, they're like, bring back bullying.
00:46:02
And it's like, no, we don't
need to bring back bullying. Bullying is terrible. It's awful.
00:46:06
It's traumatizing and it's not great. also, that's another thing a lot,
there's more of a push to homeschool
00:46:12
kids because, or there's more of a push
to homeschool your kids because there's the fear that they might go to school
and they're gonna transition them, or
00:46:22
they're gonna read books with queer
characters and that's gonna make them gay. Or other things that just,
that, that doesn't happen.
00:46:28
First of all. Um, in fact, there are some evidence
that shows that kids who are homeschooled
00:46:34
when they grow up, they are just as
likely to be L-G-B-T-Q as everybody else. In fact, there was one study that
were, they were like slightly more.
00:46:42
I said that they would identify that way. So this does not protect your kids
from, from anything like that.
00:46:48
But yeah, it's interesting how
homeschooling also goes along with the pushback against people
being openly queer in society.
00:46:58
that's an interesting point to raise
as well, because I've, I've found that in doing the show and even just
like looking at my friends, like we
00:47:07
grew up in a very heteronormative. Environment. Right. And, and, uh, I was talking recently to
somebody about, um, there used to be this,
00:47:17
it was a lesson, but we made it more of a
joke in, uh, like youth group and stuff.
00:47:21
And it was always, whenever there
was guys and girls, it was like, guys are blue, girls are red.
00:47:25
Right. We don't make purple, we
don't mix kind of a thing. in. Right, right, right.
00:47:30
Most people will resonate
with some kind of, some, who grew up in the era that we did
with evangelical Christianity, if you
00:47:37
were there, it was like no purple. yeah. But what's funny is we always joke
about, well, what if we make like
00:47:43
dark blue or like, or dark red? Right. And, and, and, but it was very,
it became very true because even
00:47:50
though we were joking about it at
the time, and, and, and, you know. Stupidly sometimes joking about,
00:47:57
Mm-hmm. being gay or homo or homosexual
or anything like that. It just, it, it, it's interesting
to now look back and see my guy
00:48:06
friends who have come out, some of
my girlfriends who have come out, my, my friends who have transitioned, you
know, and are not trans or they're
00:48:14
non-binary or anything like that. Mm-hmm. very interesting because it is, I
would, I would say maybe 50% of them,
00:48:24
there's something in there that would
identify in the LGBTQ plus community. And so it, it's, it's, to your point
of it doesn't really protect because
00:48:34
I mean, we were all sheltered from
that and it's, and I mean, to quote Lady Gaga baby, I was born this way.
00:48:40
Like, it just, it seems to indicate
more and more to me that I'm like, uh, I don't think it's a choice.
00:48:46
I don't think it's a, a misguided, um. You know, I, I don't think it's
a, a, a failure on a parent
00:48:53
to say, oh, my kid is now gay. You know what I mean? It, it, it's, it's just an interesting,
um, thing to see in, in the homeschool
00:49:01
world as it as it's kind of, again,
we've blossomed now into adults and come outta that environment where
00:49:07
Mm-hmm. was a shameful thing to, to discuss
that or just wasn't even talked about.
00:49:12
And now it's like a lot of us are
finding our voices to say, this is me. So even though I'm a straight white guy,
like I, there, there's like, it is, it
00:49:21
is interesting to kind of finally find
our voices to say, no, this is like who I am and be like very proud of it
because it's just to not be that way.
00:49:28
So, And, um. used to be extremely homophobic. Having grown up in this environment,
00:49:34
yeah. I, I used to be, I used to be, let's
be honest, I was a piece of shit like
00:49:40
you and I would not get along at all. But, um, what I later found out is
that that was just me projecting.
00:49:46
So you're absolutely right. It does come from somewhere. You do say it in some way, whether
it's the projection or the joking
00:49:55
about dark red or dark blue. So it's, I feel like
there's always a tell. There's always a tell.
00:50:00
When you look back, you're
like, ah, there it was. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I agree.
00:50:06
I think it's, yeah, I think there's that
tell, uh, amongst people and, and even someone like me who Yeah, was extreme.
00:50:13
I was, yeah, I would say
extremely homophobic. Um, and finally making
friends who were gay.
00:50:18
ourselves homophobic. We just say that we love people
and want them to know the gospel.
00:50:24
exactly. I love all this. I, I love the sinner. I hate the sin. That was, that was my,
my line a lot of times.
00:50:30
And, but kind of coming to a point of
realizing that I was like, I, I am very wrong for thinking that way, you know?
00:50:37
And it took a long time, um, to get there,
but it was, I'm, I'm glad I'm there. I'm, you know, glad I'm, I'm at
a point, I'm like, okay, ally.
00:50:47
Um, no. So it's, it's, it's good. And I think. Something that I wanna emphasize
too inside of just this, the broader
00:50:58
conversation that we've had is the fact
that like, even for those of us who grew
00:51:02
up in these very controlling environments
that grew up believing and kind of being
00:51:06
indoctrinated into a certain worldview
of the way things were gonna be, it's never too late to go back and relearn
to change your opinion to, to do any of
00:51:17
these things in the same way for for, for
the, the school that we missed out on.
00:51:21
It's never too late to go back
and, and learn that thing. Um, it's just a matter of wanting to do
it right and taking the steps to do it.
00:51:29
So, yeah. Well, Mindy, is there anything we
haven't touched on that we should touch on, um, before I let you go?
00:51:37
Uh, I think part of the reason why, um,
online schools, whether they're private or public, need be included in legislation
around homeschooling is one of the
00:51:52
things I keep looking back to is that if
there were legislation around, criminal
00:51:58
records around CPS investigations, around
home visits, I probably would not have
00:52:05
been allowed to do online schooling. And I don't wanna say too much about my
own situation growing up, but, If there
00:52:15
were a background check on my parents,
I would not have been allowed to do this kind of schooling where you're at home
all day and not being seen by anyone else.
00:52:24
That would've probably prompted either a
home visit or at least another interview.
00:52:30
And then they would figure out,
okay, this should not be happening. And that's a weird thing to
think about, that you could
00:52:36
have been saved by bureaucracy It is a little bit weird. Yeah. a weird thing to think about,
especially because that's not a
00:52:44
sentence anyone ever really says. Um, so yeah, and anything
that's even close. 'cause then also you get to the
conversation of micro schools and
00:52:52
all these other options for schooling
'cause it's no longer just cut and dry of public school, private school,
homeschool, uh, there, there's so
00:53:01
many different things happening. So unfortunately we are gonna have to
define legally what all these types
00:53:06
of schools are and how we're going to
approach them from a legal standpoint. I think that's a really good reminder.
00:53:12
And, and that's also why I wanted to have
this conversation with you because even
00:53:16
to this day of like, you know, when I,
when I mentioned the umbrella and all the things that are un, un, uh, from
umbrella of homeschooling and everything
00:53:24
that's underneath it, I think still
to this day, I very much sit in that like private homeschool environment.
00:53:30
And so when I talk about legislation,
that's what I'm primarily focused on because that's my lived experience
and that's why I wanted to have you
00:53:37
on to talk about the, to online school
and things like that, because it's equally as important and should the
laws also be impacting that part of
00:53:46
the homeschool world, does it, you
know, all those types of things. And so to your point, I think we're,
we are gonna start to have, to
00:53:52
really start to legally define terms. Of what are these, all these
different schools and how are
00:53:58
they gonna impact one another? And so and I think one of the reasons it's, it
doesn't really affect that is because.
00:54:06
Online schools, at least through the
public school system, are legally classified as public schools.
00:54:11
Right. because you're following all the other
public school regulations and laws,
00:54:15
they might not think that we need to
go and do anything else as far as do background checks or do interviews
with the parents or anything like that.
00:54:23
But yeah, you, you, this needs
to be included in other laws. It can't just be parent
led specific homeschool.
00:54:32
It has to be any type of schooling
that is primarily done at home your parents are either overseeing or
they are the ones primarily teaching.
00:54:44
Yeah. need to figure out what the
laws are, defining terms and Yeah. I think too, one of the, one of the
great things that I think can be done
00:54:54
Mm-hmm. Relatively quickly to be quite
honest, is that because education is still very much a state's issue,
is that it really only takes.
00:55:03
A handful of states to start to enact
some of these things where we can start to see data surrounding them and see how
it, how it impacts the numbers, right?
00:55:12
How it impacts, uh, CPS calls,
how it impacts, um, you know, some, some of these things, right?
00:55:17
And so from there, we have the data
and then we can, and we can move forward, uh, with making it hopefully
more of a nationwide, uh, process.
00:55:26
But that is something that I've, I've
also come to realize is like, you know, it, in an ideal world, yeah, overnight we
stamp something and it's like everybody
00:55:34
across the world, across the country. But I've realized more and more that
it's like, no, if we can get, if we can
00:55:39
get a couple states to really start to
implement some of these things and start to see positive results from them, well
it becomes a lot easier to hopefully get
00:55:47
other states to come on board with that. And so, And that, yeah. tough because, um, now we're at
this point where you have the
00:55:54
parental rights movement, which. Believe it or not, the parental
rights movement was founded by Michael
00:55:59
Ferris, and that's a extension of
H-S-L-D-A and I don't think a lot of people real, again, it's how involved
these organizations in all these
00:56:09
little things that seem unrelated. But no, the, the parental rights
movement very much is an extension
00:56:13
of the homeschooling movement. And that's another reason why people
need to what they're actually supporting.
00:56:21
Uh, maybe you've joined H-S-L-D-A because
you, you know, want the legal protection,
00:56:25
but you don't realize what they're
actually doing with your membership fees. Here, there's been a big thing with
libraries making minors only sections in
00:56:33
libraries where otherwise you'd have to
share your id, is absolutely ridiculous.
00:56:37
But that, that has nothing
to do with parental rights. Parents already have the right
to decide what books they want
00:56:44
their kids to read or not. If your kid brings home a book
that you don't like, you can just
00:56:48
take it back or you could say,
no, we're, we're not reading that. Instead, you're trying to force
your beliefs onto everybody else.
00:56:56
same thing with things
like Vaccine Choice. Um, there's, there's a weird thing
happening here in Idaho where they're
00:57:01
trying to make mRNA vaccines illegal,
and they did that didn't work out. Now they're trying to make it
illegal for women and children.
00:57:08
Like how is that choice if
you're trying to make it illegal? It's, yeah, no, it's very
interesting to see how the, yeah.
00:57:18
They want like. You know, uh, they want like
freedom of choice, right? Like, but they also don't
want freedom of choice.
00:57:25
Like it's, it's like
it's coming out of like, want freedom for your you want freedom for your Yes, exactly.
00:57:30
And, and, but it's stripping
away the right of other freedoms. And so I think that's
what's really interesting.
00:57:36
I live in Tennessee, Mm-hmm. similar. We have a lot of, uh, we're
republican, super majority here.
00:57:43
And so a lot of, a lot of stuff just kind
of unfortunately goes past, um, and, and
00:57:51
gets passed and it's, it's very scary. It's a scary thing to be a part of
and, and not a part of, but to be
00:57:57
involved in and, and see because
yeah, these, these decisions that are getting made, it's just sometimes I
wake up and I go, what are you doing?
00:58:07
Right? Like, it, it is really that
question of like, what are we doing? Anti-vax is a great example of that.
00:58:12
Like, what are we doing here? Um. the anti-vax movement also originated
within the homeschool movement.
00:58:17
I feel like before the Wakefield, MMR
causes autism, it was mainly homeschoolers
00:58:22
that were in the, in the, just the
crunchy lifestyle in general, I feel like was mainly a homeschool thing,
00:58:27
It is really interesting because I
feel like there is, you know, I'm still somebody who believes in, like,
questioning a lot of things, right?
00:58:37
And so questioning science
and, and things like that. I, I think that that's valid.
00:58:41
And, and I, so I understand it's really
easy to fall down the pipeline, right? The right, the right wing,
00:58:46
right. anti-vax pipeline, alt-right pipeline, right, right. Of like, of like, you know.
00:58:53
like the original homeschool movement
was not conservative Christians. It was hippies.
00:58:58
Mm-hmm. The unschooling movement. And then somehow conservative Christians
adopted it because they were afraid
00:59:05
of all the social changes happening. Yeah, well, you know, if history
tells us anything, it's, you know,
00:59:10
Christianity has a really good way
of latching itself onto secular and pagan ideas and, uh, taking them over.
00:59:16
So, Oh yeah. Yeah. The summer of love is what
led to the religious right. Oh my gosh.
00:59:22
It. Yeah. Yep. ' cause I feel like people our age,
we look at the boomer generation
00:59:27
and you're like, what happened here? How did you go from this free love, civil
rights, second wave feminism, and then
00:59:35
you go on to vote for Ronald Reagan. What? What happened here? And then you look and
you're like, oh my God.
00:59:42
And now we're seeing it, our subs, because
I feel like 10 years ago, if you had friends who only ate grass fed organic
food, used essential oils, instead of
00:59:52
going to doctors, or they didn't get their
yearly flu shot because they heard that
00:59:56
there's an ingredient there linked to
cancer, they were more on left-leaning. And now it's the exact opposite.
01:00:02
Yeah, it, it is really weird how
it's, it's very much swapped, um, in a lot of cases for stuff like
that, it's, it's very strange.
01:00:11
So, man, this is a conversation
that I feel like, again, it's one of those like, it, it, it is really
almost a black hole of, like, it all
01:00:19
ties together in a very strange way. And so, to have a red string and like
connecting everything because it's
01:00:26
like it really is all connected. yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. And so, Mindy, I thank you for coming
on and at least scratching the surface
01:00:33
with some of these topics with me
because I, it is important and it's something that it, when I started the
show, I didn't wanna get political.
01:00:42
And then I realized that
just homeschooling in general is a political statement.
01:00:45
And so it really is hard. It really is. It's hard to say that. It's like, I don't wanna be political.
01:00:51
when you really look at it. Yep, yep. That's the reality. So But that's, that's another
01:00:57
I. Um. We're at a point in 2026 where
religion is not at the top of the list of why people homeschool.
01:01:06
The main reason is that it's just people
are not happy with their local public school system, or they feel like their
child is not getting what they need.
01:01:15
So they're turning to
homeschooling as a way to do this. unfortunately, again, it's like you are
just a mom or a dad who's just wants
01:01:24
to do what you think is best for your
child, but you're being represented by people who have ulterior motives.
01:01:32
if you are not paying attention,
you're not gonna know what you've gotten involved in.
01:01:36
Yeah, no, that's very true. I think it's very, it's very quick
and very easy to kind of, you know,
01:01:42
you open that question of like, how
does homeschooling work and how do I, you know, how do, how do I do this?
01:01:47
Right? You just Google, how do
I homeschool my own kids? Right? And you know, if you click the
first search, it's, it's gonna
01:01:54
take you down a whole spiral. Um, that'll lead you. In a bunch of different
directions, to be quite honest.
01:02:00
But it, it'll probably pull you into
kind of that very conservative homeschool Mm-hmm.
01:02:05
environment. And so I think it is important to be,
to be reminded that it's like you have
01:02:10
to do, we have to do our research. And for people like you and I, it's
again, a reminder to, to say, okay, well
01:02:18
for those of us who, who lived through
some of it and now are just studying some of it from an outside perspective,
it's important to talk about it.
01:02:24
It's important about to talk about it with
people that we know who have children.
01:02:27
Um, because it, it, it takes a long
time to research this kind of stuff. And it's purposeful, it's
purposefully made very hard to,
01:02:36
Yes. kind of dig down. It's a black hole. It's a black hole for a reason. The, the, the research, the so-called
research that you'll find claiming that
01:02:45
homeschoolers have better test scores
or whatever, that's all completely fake. That was made by one guy who
used to be a zoologist and then
01:02:52
went into homeschool research. And then you find out that his
research, quote unquote, is just
01:02:59
him asking parents their opinions. And his daughter has actually come
forward saying that he was abusive
01:03:06
and that he taught her no math, again,
homeschool math, um, and that he was just
01:03:11
awful and that no one should trust him. that's the thing. You don't know where to
look when you're just.
01:03:16
Putting things into Google, you're
just gonna get whatever comes up. Right. again, homeschooling is just,
and it doesn't help that
01:03:24
everyone homeschools different. So that's why it's so
hard to get actual data. 'cause there are homeschooling families
where they get up at 6:00 AM they start
01:03:33
school at eight 30 and finish at 1130. And in that time you have to be in your
school room and doing school and even
01:03:39
raising your hand to use the bathroom. And then there are the other extreme
of families who are unschooling and
01:03:44
doing whatever they wanna do that day. So that's, that makes it hard Yeah. Data of what homeschoolers are actually
learning, how they compare to public
01:03:55
school and private school and just
whether or not, um, what kind of regulations we need, what laws need
to be passed, how are we gonna protect
01:04:04
children who are in abusive situations. Uh, we just, that, that's a
big thing is that we need more.
01:04:12
Data, and we Yeah. research on what's actually
going on within the lives of homeschoolers, of all, all types.
01:04:19
Whether you are homeschooling in
a way where you are creating your own curriculum, whether you're
doing it through an online school,
01:04:24
however you're doing it, we
need, we need to know the truth. We Yeah. Well, in this, I'm just gonna
kind of put this as a call out
01:04:33
to anyone listening and watching. You know, who maybe was homeschooled. You don't talk about it,
you put it in the shadows.
01:04:41
I was that person for a little while. I got to college and I had decided. I'm gonna reinvent myself.
01:04:46
I don't wanna talk about
being a homeschool kid. I wasn't necessarily ashamed of it, but
I was just like, I'm moving past that
01:04:51
part of my life and that's no longer
gonna be an identifying factor for me. Here we are now almost 30
years old and I'm like, hell
01:04:59
yeah, I was a homeschool kid. I'm that weirdo. Um, and so, but the more that a lot
of us can come forward and talk about
01:05:05
these things, that is also very valuable
data to understand what it is, how, how that has impacted, because a lot of
that information comes currently from
01:05:16
the, the former homeschool parents. And most homeschool parents, intentionally
or unintentionally have a little
01:05:22
bit more of a rose colored glasses
view of how they taught their kids. And so we need,
01:05:30
Mm-hmm. I'm currently, I wanna figure out
the best way to kind of collect that and, and point people.
01:05:39
But if that's something you're interested
in doing and talking about, like reach
01:05:42
out to me because I think that's. That's, you know, we, we need to be
doing that and we need to be prevent
01:05:47
presenting, um, our experiences, uh,
and, and how it's impacted us, where we are, uh, career wise, where we are
in life, all those types of things.
01:05:56
Those are important data points
that can be used to help impact the next generations of home educators.
01:06:01
Keep in mind, I'm not against
homeschooling, but I just think we can make it better for the future generations.
01:06:06
So with that. I'm not against homeschooling either. I think it can be a good option
for kids, but I I, I'll even tell
01:06:13
people myself, if you are thinking of
homeschooling your kids, you need to talk to formally homeschooled adults
because we are gonna give you the good,
01:06:21
the bad, and the ugly of what happened. Um, parents, again, I feel
like a lot of homeschool.
01:06:27
Parent homeschooling parents, they, they
do paint it out as like, I homeschool my kid and now they're a lawyer.
01:06:33
But what you don't realize is that your
kid was a lawyer, had three stints in the psych ward because they attempted
suicide and they had to really claw
01:06:40
their way through college because they. We're so far behind and didn't realize it.
01:06:46
Um, just hearing so-called
homeschool success stories doesn't necessarily tell the whole truth.
01:06:53
Um, I get so yeah. If you're a homeschooling parent or
considering homeschooling, you need to
01:06:59
reach out to formally homeschool adults
and get, get variety of perspectives. Get people who have those amazing
experiences, like, what made it so great?
01:07:06
Why, what did their parents
do to make it so good? And, and of course, you know, talk
to those of us who it wasn't so great
01:07:13
and why it wasn't so great and what
could have made it better if, of course, you're gonna get people who
are like, homeschooling is terrible.
01:07:20
Don't do it. It should be illegal. I don't believe that. I believe that it can be a good
option, but it needs more regulation.
01:07:27
And yeah, Yeah. at all where I thought this interview
was gonna go, but I, I feel like
01:07:34
we need to talk about these things. That's why we're here. I'm with you. I, I appreciate your perspective so much,
Mindy, and I appreciate you coming on the
01:07:41
show and, and having the conversation with
me because it is, yeah, it, it's, it's
01:07:47
a topic that just needs to be discussed. And so with that, we are at time,
but I once again, appreciate you
01:07:54
so much for coming on and sharing
your story and being open with us and being open with the research
that you've done and, you know, uh.
01:08:02
It. I love the people who hyper fixate on
some of this stuff because they, they have the data and they, you know, and,
and so having them come on and be able
01:08:11
to, to share, you know, I've done this
and, and seen this research and talked to these people, that, that is helpful.
01:08:17
Um, because it, yeah, it is,
it is a, a trek for sure. So, Mindy, thank you. Thank you, thank you.
01:08:23
Welcome to the Ex Homeschoolers Club. I'm gonna officially give you an ex
homeschoolers membership card 'cause,
01:08:28
because as we've discussed, as we have
determined you are a homeschool kid. Yeah, now we know for sure.
01:08:35
Now if anyone wants to debate that,
I can be like, I am an official member of the Ex Homeschoolers Club.
01:08:39
Exactly. Exactly. So with that to the audience,
thank you guys for listening. If you enjoyed it, do all the internet
things like subscribe, comment, share it
01:08:48
with the friends, you know what to do. Uh, if you wanna reach out to me, ex hs
[email protected], thoughts if you wanna
01:08:55
be a guest, if you, like I mentioned
before, if you want to figure out a way to create some data points around, uh,
US homeschool alumni, uh, I'm all ears.
01:09:06
Okay? Um, and so with that,
I'm gonna let you go. I'll see you next time. Peace.