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This is Grant Harden, a 50-year-old police officer hiding a horrifying secret. Grant has been apprehended on
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suspicion of murder, but as it would later transpire, his crimes and behavior were so bad that in his interrogation,
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he tried everything he possibly could to escape. On the 23rd of February, James Appleton had pulled into a parking lot
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on Ganidge Road to take a phone call with his brother-in-law. Suddenly, a loud banging sound was heard over the
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phone, and the line went dead. A passer by had spotted a white Chevrolet Malibu parked behind James' car that
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immediately sped away after the loud noise. When the passerby went to check on James, he was lying dead at the wheel
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with a gunshot wound to the head. Gateway, Arkansas is a small town of 400 people. So, the owner of the Chevy was
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quickly determined to be Grant Harden, a 50-year-old police officer who had lived
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in this town his whole life. Later that night, Grant's vehicle was stopped at a police roadblock after taking his family
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out for dinner, and he was quickly brought in for questioning. But unfortunately for everyone involved,
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Grant's experience in law enforcement would prove to make this interrogation one of the most excruciating and
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difficult that Arkansas police had ever had to deal with. Detective Chamberlain,
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I know we have James Chamberlain. Okay. Did you be a police officer somewhere? I
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recognize you, but I wasn't 100% sure where I knew you from, but somebody said that you used to be a police officer in
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Gateway or something like that. Okay. The interrogation begins casually as Detective Chamberlain opens with
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questions about Grant's career. As they're both police officers, he assumes he can strike an immediate middle ground
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with him, building trust between them and hopefully getting him to relax so he'd give up information easier. A
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strategy that he'd soon find out had the opposite effect. Grant has then read his
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rights, but decides this is where he's going to start making it difficult for the detectives.
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Here's the thing. I want to talk to you about what what you've done today. Okay.
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Can you just take me through when you woke up this morning to when you got stopped by the police out there in
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what's the name of that road that you were on? I'm sorry. I'm drunk again Ridge.
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I'm not going to say anything after I've been read those rocks yet. Okay. Well, I don't know what's going on. I am kind
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of sickly to uh to what I'm here for and things. Up until this point, Grant hasn't been
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told what he's been brought in for and states that he's feeling sickly given the circumstances he's been put into.
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Given his disturbing body language, he may also be feeling exposed and somewhat inferior due to being the suspect of a
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case instead of the detective for the first time in his life. So, you don't want to explain what
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you've done today? Did you? Is there a reason behind that? What was the first thing said? I have the right to remain
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silent. Okay, so you're telling me that you don't want to talk to me right now? Okay, cool. Hang tight right here for
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just a few minutes. Okay. As is normal in a case like this, the detectives leave the room for a few
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minutes to talk about how they're going to handle the interview. And not only does it give them time to formulate
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their approach, but it also gives the suspects time alone to worry about what could be going on and form anxiety
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regarding their situation. At the same time though, it may also give the suspect a moment to collect their
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thoughts and generate their own story and approach to the interview, putting the detectives on the back foot instead.
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[Music] By the way, I'm Detective Court. I think we met once before. Okay. So, I I I don't know if I scared
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you at the beginning or or what, but that's why I was trying to I can't you see you see the position that I'm in. I
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can't tell you why you're here, but at the same time, I I need to rule you out into something. Does that Does that make
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sense? When the detectives re-enter the room, they try an obviously different approach. This time, attempting to set
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granted ease, stating that they just need to clear him from any wrongdoing, and then he's free to go on his way.
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Many people would, at least subconsciously, be inclined to open up a little more in an attempt to get out of
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there as soon as possible, but Grant has other ideas. Would you be willing to talk to me about your day knowing that I
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need to rule you out of something or like I'm just if you didn't do anything wrong today, you have nothing to worry
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about. Yes, I I would have liked to before Yeah. the rights were read. So, not knowing
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what's going on. Yeah. And you understand as a detective, we have we read those rights to
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everybody who comes in here. It's not just you. It it happens to everybody that walks through this room and talks
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to us. As a former police officer, Grant is fully aware of all of this. He knows
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everybody that's interviewed, innocent or not, has to be read these rights, which essentially completely invalidates
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this as the real reason that he isn't talking. He's just using it as an excuse to refuse to talk and possibly to even
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stall for time. I guess my question is this. Knowing what I just told you, I guess if it was me and I was, you know,
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if I was in your position, I'd be like, "Hey, James, I did this. I was at or Grant, I did this. I was at, you know,
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here, here, here, and here." And I would just be done with it. But at this point,
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like, I can't clear you from this because you could still potentially be a suspect. I don't know if I'm explaining
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it right or or what. I just have to once the once the rights have been read, I have to It says I have
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the right to be silent. Yes. Okay. Just tell me this. I know you're a police officer before,
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right? You're you're a police officer in in Gateway. [Music] It's an easy yes or no.
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I I'm being silent. Well, I can see that we can do this all night. I mean, it doesn't bother me.
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You're going to continue to be a suspect until I find out otherwise. Okay. Unfortunately for the detectives, Grant
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is exercising perfect form within this interrogation. Refusing to talk greatly hinders the investigation as a whole and
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completely prevents the detectives from making progress, all while being completely legal. This is why Detective
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Chamberlain is starting to appear visibly annoyed and decides to take a break from the interrogation, as letting
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emotions take control in an investigation like this can be extremely dangerous for the detectives. But once
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again, this time alone can also give the suspects the chance to come up with a plan.
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[Music] Hello. I need to go. You need to go where? Home or get ready for work in a little
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bit. Okay. We'll just have a seat and I'll get get it for you. Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you.
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Yes, sir. The other hospital. You want to talk to me again? What's going on? I'm just ready to go.
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Okay. And I'm not I'm not ready for you to go yet. So, you're not going to be able to go. I've got other things that
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I'm doing right now. So, all right. I just want to Oh, you're not. Okay. Yeah. No, you're
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not. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Oddly enough, in many other investigations like this, now is around
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the time where an officer may attempt to come to a decision regarding the suspect. The interview is obviously at a
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complete standstill and no progress is being made in any direction. The standard protocol would be to either
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gather the information needed to charge the suspect for a crime or release them based on a lack of evidence. But whether
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the detective thinks he can extract more information or if it was an ego-based decision, Grant is told to stay and
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continue the interrogation. The police then try to take some time to piece together more of the story, talking to
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witnesses to try and place Grant at the scene of the crime. Despite his silence being perfectly legal and acceptable, it
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greatly increases the detective's suspicion towards him. Suspicion that's only heightened when Grant's wife says
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that his only alibi was that she thought he was spreading grass seeds at the time
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of James' death. All signs point towards Grant and Detective Chamberlain goes back in for round three.
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Detective Cordier is talking to your wife right now. I talked to her a little bit, so I've kind of got a timeline on
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where you were and where you weren't today. Um, we all know what happened. Okay, I'm not trying to get you in any
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trouble. I'm not trying to get her in any trouble. You got a little daughter, 16, who needs her parents. Okay, I don't
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know if you've had a problem with this guy for a while or and this was an accident or you maliciously chased him
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down or or what happened. But if I don't get your side of the story, I won't ever
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know. We're writing a book. You got chapter 1, you got chapter two, and chapter 3. Chapter 1 is what happened
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today, what started out today, how your day started. Chapter two is what led up to the incident. And chapter 3 is you
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telling me about what happened to lead you up to that. I know you went to eat, you know, out tonight. I know what you
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said at dinner. I know that you went to Lowe's afterwards. I know everything, but I don't know what caused the
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incident. And if I don't know that, I've got to assume the worst. I'll let you think about it. I'm I'll give you one
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more chance here in a few minutes and I'm not I'm not going to talk to you anymore. I'm not telling you that. Well,
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what happened? I know you know we have witnesses that put you there. They physically IDed you. The two cars that
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drove by. Look, man, I'm not I I just want to know why it happened. I I'm going to sleep good tonight
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regardless. I don't think you will. At the time of the murder, when the two cars were parked up beside each other,
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the man in the white Chevrolet waved to the passer by passed before the gun was fired. As they passed, they were able to
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get a good look at the driver. And unfortunately for Grant, it was Andrew Tilman, another resident of the small
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town who had known him since he was a child and was hence able to undoubtedly place him at the scene of the crime as
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the gun went off. Both Grant and Chamberlain know without a doubt what happened to James. But Grant also knows
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that his only chance of escaping is to continue to remain silent and pray that they can't gather the evidence they
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need. The detectives are now forced to try almost anything they can think of to get movement out of Grant. Starting with
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allowing him to see his wife and daughter in hopes that it will invoke some sort of emotional reaction within
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him and get him to talk. Your wife's about to leave. She wanted to get you hug before she left. Are you
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good with that? [Music] Love you, too. Okay. All right. I'll be back in a few minutes.
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Unfortunately, even this doesn't work. So, instead, Detective Cordiero decides to return alone with a more calm and
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sympathetic demeanor in a second attempt to build trust with Grant. Often male suspects are more likely to build a
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subconscious connection with female detectives due to them often thinking that they're less threatening and more
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understanding. Realistically, this is the last option the detectives have. All right.
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Think about laying down up on that desk. Yeah. I don't know if you'll be any more
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comfortable up there than what you are now. Can you help me understand how we got to
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this point? I don't know. I don't know, man. I remember being on patrol and running into you one night.
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Help me out on a call. Back me up. Oh, it was way back in almost 3 years now. Well,
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two. Yeah, something like that. You guys are always good to help us, help me, too.
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Brad, you were always right there, man. Cordiierro opens up with an anecdote about how Grant apparently backed her up
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on a case 3 years ago. Even though he doesn't necessarily remember it, this will give him the idea that Cordiierro
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will be even more sympathetic and helpful towards him as he's done her a favor in the past. It also allows them
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to continue reminiscing about their time on the Force and the people they've worked with, further strengthening the
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subconscious bond Grant will be creating. I just understand how we got to this point.
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Yeah, me neither. You're willing to talk. Oh, I'm just ready to go to bed. I don't blame you. Me, too. Me, too. I
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know we could do that. You just talked to me. Well, I just have to since you read
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those rides, I have to state I have to do the ride. What What's the difference? Know the difference?
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Regardless of something happened or not, and if it did, if it was an accident, tell me. Like, let me help help me help
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you. Like, I want to know what I can do or what happened today to be able to explain it later. I
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I don't know what happened today. I just need to You know, people are going to have
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questions. Your family. Well, I have questions. Well, exactly. So, so why can't we figure this out
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together? Cordiero is making a conscious effort to use inclusive language such as, "We will
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figure this out together." This and her open and expressive body language are both techniques she's using to make
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Grant feel more relaxed and as though he's part of the solution, not the problem. She's also making every effort
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to be nice to Grant in hopes that maybe he'll finally open up to her or at least
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give her a way in. We insert from the very beginning. I mean, I know you probably slept in cuz
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you worked nights. I worked nights. Trust me, I worked nights for almost 4 years. I understand how that sleep
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schedule is. Yeah, I was sleep. So, messed up. Did you sleep in today? Yeah, I bet you did. You could have got
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to work tonight, huh? Yeah. Yeah. What time did you get up? Around noon. That's usually what time I
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got up, too. Did you watch anything good on TV? Usually that's what I do. I'd eat
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and watch TV. I woke myself up a little bit. Anything good? See my old stuff. Oh, yeah. on TV.
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You watch the same episode or like do you have a specific TV show you would wake up and watch?
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Well, we watched the filming My Life Always Has It On I can't remember what channel was called right now. TV Land.
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Oh, okay. I haven't really watched any of that. I don't I couldn't even tell you what it was about whack like that.
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Oh, yeah. I think she might watch other stuff, but that's all. It might not be about the case, but
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finally Grant is talking and Cordiero has found her way in. If she can keep the flow of this conversation up, she
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might be slowly able to extract information from him, even without him knowing, talking about specifics such as
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TV shows and sleep schedules. Even that could lead to catching him in a lie and placing him in certain places at certain
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times. But most importantly, she's building a connection with him and continuing to let him talk, which
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increases the chance that he either slips up or decides to make it easier on the detectives and answer a question.
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But predictably, as soon as Cordderero started asking him to talk about the case again, he shut down once more,
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refusing to answer any more questions and staying silent. I think you have a lot to live for.
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Beautiful family who I've had the privilege of talking to. The way I look at it is you're a man. Men face their
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mistakes and they own up to them and they figure out what happened and figure out how to solve it and move on. Like I
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said, I'm I'm honestly here to help you. I want you to understand that I wouldn't
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spend my time in here with you if I didn't and that something happened today that needs to be explained. Did you make
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a mistake today? Even after reminding him of his family, Grant doesn't move an inch. Again,
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realizing that his only chance of being let off is to not speak and hope they don't find anything.
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I like you. I like this fella that was a detective here. I know they all don't care about him and stuff. And I just
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don't know how to how to uh had this happen before being brought in and interrogated for something. So I don't I
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know you don't care, but I just don't know how to how to I think how to be silent sitting over here
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looking like a jerk. No, you're not. Honestly, you were far from that. You're very polite.
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Don't you know why you're here? I appreciate you guys and I'm just going to Can I get a lawyer?
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Yeah, it's up to you. But you obviously something's going on and I need one. I just want to hear your side
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of it. I want to get a lawyer. After hours of almost pointless back and forth, Grant finally asks for a lawyer,
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meaning the detectives can no longer question him and concludes the interrogation. But this is far from
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where the story ends. Between this interrogation and the final court hearing, Grant and his lawyer both
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realized that there was simply no way he was going to be released scot-free. Not
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only was there a man at the scene of the crime who all but saw him pull the trigger, people were also starting to
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realize that he'd actually either been fired or resigned from three different police force jobs before becoming the
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chief of police in his hometown. So on October 16th, 2017, he pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder, but refused to
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reveal his motive, leaving each member of James Appleton's family without closure to this day. However, as Grant
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was being prosecuted, a shocking revelation was made that turned him, a murderer, into a senseless monster of a
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human being. As his DNA was being taken, they realized it was already in the system under an unknown name for a crime
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committed almost 20 years ago. In November of 1997, a teacher at Frank Tiller Elementary School went to the
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teacher's lounge bathroom only to be met by a man brandishing a gun that forced her into a stall. The man then ripped
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her and fled, taking care not to touch anything or leave evidence behind, except for the he left on her clothes.
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Local police did everything they could to identify the perp. But after 20 months of effort, the investigation went
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cold until 20 years later when Grant Harden's DNA was found to be a perfect match. And because Rogers police had
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obtained a John Doe warrant back in 2003, allowing them to arrest an unknown suspect and bypass the statute of
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limitations, he was hit with the 14-year sentence for his on top of the 21 years
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for the murder of James Appleton. And as such, Grant Harden was sentenced to 35 years in prison, meaning that he'll
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likely live out the rest of his life behind bars.