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Marcus Daniell - Winning an Olympic Bronze Medal, Founding a Charity, Mental Health, and more!

July 01, 2023 / 01:19:31

This episode features Marcus Daniel, New Zealand's professional tennis player, discussing his career, mental health, and his non-profit organization, High Impact Athletes. Key topics include tall poppy syndrome, effective charity giving, and the pressures of professional sports.

Marcus shares his journey in tennis, including his experiences at the Olympics, where he won a bronze medal in Tokyo. He reflects on the differences between singles and doubles tennis, and how he has focused on doubles with partner Mike Venus.

The conversation also touches on Marcus's mental health journey, including challenges with depression and the importance of open discussions about mental well-being, particularly among men in New Zealand.

He emphasizes the significance of effective giving through his organization, which aims to help athletes donate to the most impactful charities. Marcus encourages others to consider their contributions and the potential for positive change.

Overall, the episode highlights Marcus's commitment to using his platform for good, his personal growth, and the importance of community and support in both sports and life.

TL;DR

Marcus Daniel discusses his tennis career, mental health, and his charity, High Impact Athletes, promoting effective giving and community support.

Episode

1:19:31

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[Music]

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mate it is so good thank you so much for

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coming over I really appreciate it

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Marcus Daniel

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um New Zealand's best male tennis player

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oh I can't claim that man to Mike Venus

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uh definitely Pips me there I'll claim

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number two okay

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Pantheon I don't no uh well I just

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Googled and it ranked New Zealand's goat

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tennis players uh the greatest of all

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time

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um this is a horrible opening question

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but where do you think you would where

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do you think this website Pantheon

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placed you in terms of New Zealand's

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guides number one Anthony Wilding yeah

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that's without a doubt

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it I think it ultimately depends on how

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you weight singles versus doubles ah so

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I'd

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I think I'd put Mike Venus number two

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because he's won a grand slam

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interesting uh uh I think I'd put Chris

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Lewis number three finalist at it was

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Wimbledon right Wimbledon Pharmacy yeah

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83 I think it was

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and by the way you did right there

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Chrysalis is number three uh

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uh are we so I'm actually my mind went

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straight to men I should include yeah

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this is mean sorry okay men uh

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our economy might be like number

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five or six ding ding ding you are so

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it's um Anthony Wilding on a parent ah

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yeah I forgot uh Chrysalis number three

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Michael Venus number four and you Marcus

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Daniel number five what about Kelly

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evendon was he I remember him we were a

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tennis family growing up so I wear

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tennis on all the time should he not be

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ahead of you I mean the fact the fact

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that he did it on one lung you know yeah

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it probably should be

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um it's great to have you here um

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I hope this is an embarrassing but um I

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want to I want to bring this up because

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um I thought this was really cool you

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you reached out to me about coming onto

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the podcast and I I'm stoked about that

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and you're not the first person to do

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that um and I really really appreciate

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it um but that must mean there is

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something in particular you want to talk

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about or get off your chest or promote

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what is it yeah so why did you reach out

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this is so we were speaking a little

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earlier about tour poppy syndrome and so

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in 2020 I founded a non-profit called

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high impact athletes and I'm incredibly

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passionate about it I believe that we

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have the potential to do a huge amount

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of good in the world and basically the

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realization that led me to want to start

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high impact athletes was I I had been

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involved in the charity space for five

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or six years myself donating a decent

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percentage of my own income to charity

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but I'd never spoken about it publicly

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public publicly and the reason I hadn't

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spoken about it was because I'm a kiwi

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and I have tall puppy syndrome and I

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never wanted to sort of

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put myself out there as like hey I'm I'm

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doing this this thing that I think is

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good uh but the realization was by not

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talking about it I may have just lost

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the opportunity to make more impact you

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know if someone enjoys the ideas then

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maybe they'll start donating and and

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making a positive impact on the world

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and you know there was

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years of opportunity cost there so uh

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yeah the the reason I I reach out is I

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really want to get high impact athletes

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known around the world I want to get the

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idea of giving back more popular and

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mainstream culture and and especially

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and more accurately the idea of trying

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to give really effectively so

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you know there are literally millions of

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charities in the world yeah and tens of

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thousands in New Zealand alone it's

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incredibly difficult to know which are

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the good ones and so what we do at high

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impact athletes is work with the best

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research organizations to identify the

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best Charities and if you just direct

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your donations to the right place it can

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go literally hundreds of times further

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so that's that's the message that I'm

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really passionate about getting out yeah

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what do you mean a Good Charity in terms

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of like the the overheads and how much

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of the money gets it gets to where it's

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supposed to is that what you mean or

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that's definitely one of the metrics so

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I think all of the sort of Scandal

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stories in the charity space are yeah

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you know like 80 goes to filling the

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CEO's pockets and the the extra 20 goes

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to actually trying to do some good so

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that's one aspect and transparency is is

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very very important in this space and

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it's probably not prevalent enough in

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the space

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um but the other thing and probably the

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most important thing is measuring impact

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over time so it's really good to spend

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money on on interventions that we think

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are going to be good but if they don't

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turn out to actually have an impact over

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time then there's sort of a waste of

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money yeah and a lot of Charities will

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do the outputs so they'll measure the

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interventions that they do but they

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won't measure you know like two years

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out has it actually had a lasting impact

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or five years out has it had a lasting

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impact so what really matters is the

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outcome right what really matters is

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that we're actually making a positive

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impact on the world so the Charities

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that we work with they they basically do

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the best measuring and if you do good

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measuring then you you actually know

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what what your donation is doing what

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the money that you're spending is doing

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why are you you mentioned before that

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you were sort of donating uh donating

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you know money under the sort of cover

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of Darkness because of the tall poppy

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thing

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um it must have been a big call let's

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see you're you know you're you're a

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young pro tennis player in your 20s

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probably not sure where your next you

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know checks coming from I don't know I'm

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guessing it's a week to week sort of

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existence

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um that seems like a big call giving

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away some of your money

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yeah and to be honest it only only felt

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like I could when I started breaking

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even from tennis so that probably I

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think that happened in maybe 2014 was

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the first year that I actually made

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enough prize money that I covered

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expenses and

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when that happened and and that was

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around the time that I started focusing

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on doubles I actually felt like I could

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have a career in this thing you know and

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actually put some money away in the bank

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which was a lovely feeling after you

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know dedicating 10 years of my life to

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it

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um

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but then with that little sense of

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Financial Security it was like well I

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had this really strong urge to give back

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and

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sport is selfish like All Sport

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regardless of whether it's team sport or

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individual sport like we're propelled by

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this really strong desire to sort of

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rise to the top and that's necessary

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like the selfishness is necessary but it

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never sat perfectly with who I wanted to

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be away from tennis

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and also for me it was you know like

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even when you're not making money from

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tennis you're flying around the world

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for 10 months of the year and and

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playing all these tournaments and carbon

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Footprints huge and that never sat well

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so when I when I first felt like I had

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the ability to give back it was like

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okay I really want to but how and that

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was actually when I discovered this this

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area of effective giving because you

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know like a good Millennial I jumped on

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Google and and basically typed in like

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how how to give back best or something

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like that

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and yeah eventually came to this idea of

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well if you're going to give back it

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makes sense to to give back in the best

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way that you can and being an athlete

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you know optimization is just part of

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the everyday vocabulary you know we're

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we're trying to get the most we can out

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of our bodies every single hour of

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training and just to playing that same

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framework to charity made sense so with

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um hia high impact athletes um do you do

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like a percentage of your money each

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year how does it work so I I personally

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made a commitment uh at the start of

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2021 to give a minimum of 10 for the

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rest of my life and that like for me

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that feels really good it was a journey

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as well I started in 2016 I think was

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the first year I made a pledge at one

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percent and just built up over time but

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high impact athletes is it's more of a

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community and educational platform so we

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speak to athletes from all around the

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world we have around over 165 athletes

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from over 30 different countries around

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40 different sports who all want to use

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their platforms and their careers to do

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good

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and pledging is sort of the the biggest

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ask of our athletes so the pledge is two

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percent or more of of annual income but

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athletes can come on at whatever they

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feel is right for them because

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a reality that I think not enough people

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outside of sport know is that the

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majority of athletes are are really not

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not making a lot of money you know

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um I know yeah geez it must be

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exhausting hardest way to make an easy

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living yeah yeah honestly I think so you

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know the amount it's all encompassing

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what you have to put into it and you

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know most Olympic athletes are

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scratching a living it's the very lucky

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small percentage that actually do really

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well out of sport so it's meeting

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athletes where they're at

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um you know if if they're able and

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willing to donate which you know luckily

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being from New Zealand most of us can

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give something whether it's you know the

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the cost of a cup of coffee a month or

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whatever

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um but the other thing that we as

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athletes can use as voice and that's you

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know part of why I reached out is I

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think uh

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for better or worse and and maybe this

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is undeserved in in a lot of cases but

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we have a louder voice than a lot of

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other people in in society and you've

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got a platform yeah exactly and you know

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the sport sector is mainly used to sell

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stuff and I'm hoping that we can use

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that clout and that influence to to do

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some good in the world good for you good

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so anyone that's listening to this how

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is there anything they can do absolutely

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I mean

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came up with a little phrase that I

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quite like which is you know you you you

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can be LeBron James or James LeBron but

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every every dollar that you give does

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the same when it gets to the Charities

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right like we're trying to use the the

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voice of athletes and and you know

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create a movement around athletes But

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ultimately we want all of the people who

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follow athletes to get involved like

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that's that's how I think the snowball

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grows is people hearing good ideas and

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saying you know what that that sounds

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pretty cool and and you know if you go

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to highimpacts.org sorry for the little

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pitch here no not at all go ahead it's

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it has all of our recommended Charities

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we don't take any cut of any money

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that's donated whether it's from an

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athlete or from anyone in in the public

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uh and you know with these Charities you

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can just do a huge amount of good I mean

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one

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one thing is for the cost of a cup of

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coffee you can give someone access to

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clean water for three people sorry give

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three people access to clean water for a

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year so if a charity is really cost

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effective then that's the sort of impact

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that we can make on people's lives and I

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think that's pretty damn special

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let's come from is this just is it how

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you were raised is the rest of your

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family like this

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you you

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um I don't know it just seems like

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you're very immature uh when I was your

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age I was a [ __ ] mixer you're giving

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money to a charity would have been the

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last thing how old are you 30 33 33 last

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thing on my mind at 33. I know maybe

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it's a good bluff

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um no no no it cannot be I'm not going

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to accept your modesty it can't be a

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bluff like it's got to come from a

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genuine place you're not doing this for

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clout

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well so I think my family is generous in

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general

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um

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I think I'm I'm really really lucky to

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have an older brother who's always been

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a questioner of things and you know like

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I guess most younger brothers I'd copy

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him and pretty much everything when we

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were younger and and

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he's always sort of

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question what's right and wrong and had

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his own way of thinking about that and

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so when I was in my young 20s and I was

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sort of doing a University degree

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alongside tennis

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doing some philosophy papers came across

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a guy called Peter singer who is

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probably one of the world's most

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influential philosophers at the moment

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and he wrote a book called the life you

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can save and he has he has this essay

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it's it's now become quite a famous

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essay it's called the the

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drowning child essay or something like

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that and the broad Strokes are sounds

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like a rom-com

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it's it's definitely it's a punch in the

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face but it's so imagine you're you're

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wearing a nice suit that you just bought

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recently a nice pair of shoes you're

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walking to work uh and there's like a

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shallow Pond like a foot deep Pond that

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you're walking past and then you notice

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that there's a child drowning in the

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pond and of course you can just walk in

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and say save this child but you realize

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that you're wearing your nice new

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expensive suit and if you jump in you

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probably ruin this thing that costs you

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you know a couple thousand dollars

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do you walk into the pond and save the

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child

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and no brainer right exactly right so

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everyone has this emotional response of

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course you'd walk into the pond and save

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the child and Peter singer's uh question

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to us is well why aren't we doing that

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every day because just because the child

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is not in front of us drowning in a pond

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for a similar amount of money we can

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literally be saving lives in the poorest

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places in the world and actually that's

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like this idea that a life is worth a

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life regardless of where it is that's a

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real key part of high impact athletes

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because our money can just do so much

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more good in the poorest places in the

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world so reading that essay and you know

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reflecting on my own life and what I

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could and couldn't do and how I wanted

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to act in the world that was it was

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powerful for me and you know it took me

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a while to sort of act on it but all of

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those sorts of arguments have yeah I

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guess just over time I found I couldn't

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turn away from them yeah oh good for you

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good for you yeah I'd like to think I'm

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quite altruistic now I'm quite

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reasonably generous but I that wasn't

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until a point in my life where I was

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comfortable and established myself right

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so the fact that you're trying to you

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know I don't know like feather your own

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beard or feather your own nest whatever

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you want to phrase it and and also give

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it the same time I think that's

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remarkable oh thank you and I you know I

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also I think I'm incredibly lucky I mean

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you know I grew up in New Zealand's a

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lot of rapid eye

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Frozen comes to write it up but you know

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loving family you know had all the

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support that I could ever want and and

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just by virtue of being born in a high

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income country I mean like we're we're

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the lucky ones in the world and and I

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think recognizing that helped me to be

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more generous early on because they're

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ultimately like

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most people in a high income country can

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give say one percent of their income and

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not notice a drop in the quality of

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their life yeah absolutely so if that's

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the case like why not you can if you can

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help hundreds of people yeah so who's in

00:14:13

your family I know your sister is um

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Jess from Jess's underground kitchen

00:14:17

yeah who else you got a brother you

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mentioned a brother yeah Josh uh he's

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he's CEO of a fintech company now called

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akahu

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um he grew Snowball Effect which is an

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equity crowdfunding platform from he was

00:14:31

he was sort of the first CEO of that

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um yeah very intelligent guy and and is

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making some waves in the fintech space

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and yeah I think lucky to have siblings

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who who pushed me along and we will pull

00:14:44

each other in different directions like

00:14:45

a high performing family so you're

00:14:47

almost like or the family

00:14:49

yeah I'm I'm definitely the dumb one in

00:14:53

the family amazing wow God your parents

00:14:55

must be so proud all right all right um

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okay we'll go all the way back so um

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you're from masterton you say we are in

00:15:02

the water level yeah or grew up uh first

00:15:04

few years so I'm from a farming family

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yeah um grew up sort of 30 minutes

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outside masterton and dairy farm or

00:15:10

chicken beef or Ram breeding more

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accurately

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um and then moved about 10 minutes

00:15:14

outside masterton when I was about four

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or five to for us kids to go to school

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in masterton yeah and and um you were

00:15:22

playing tennis from a very young age I I

00:15:24

heard a podcast you did and you talked

00:15:25

about having um like a tennis ball

00:15:27

hanging in a hanging in a stocking yeah

00:15:29

yeah that was mum's genius way of

00:15:32

keeping me occupied for hours at a time

00:15:33

how old how old are we talking

00:15:36

so it's kind of like Tiger Woods in a

00:15:38

way you know you see footage of Tiger

00:15:39

Woods um on like TV shows working a golf

00:15:42

ball when he's a similar age yeah you

00:15:44

were just like heading heading heading

00:15:46

balls from a very young age I was I

00:15:48

think the difference if I remember

00:15:49

Tiger's story correctly it was somewhat

00:15:52

forced on him was it yeah like for me it

00:15:55

was I just I just dragged the racket

00:15:57

around right everywhere was it a tennis

00:15:58

family

00:16:00

yeah but well my parents played uh

00:16:04

well I guess recreationally they they

00:16:06

played you know they represented

00:16:08

wadarapa at its rep level so they could

00:16:11

play

00:16:12

um but never took it seriously yeah uh

00:16:14

but on at The Farmhouse there's an old

00:16:17

concrete Court there and you know long

00:16:19

summer evenings they'd jump out and hit

00:16:21

some balls around after the farm day had

00:16:24

finished and my older siblings would

00:16:26

jump out and so I'd want to jump out and

00:16:27

I think it just sort of you know it was

00:16:29

just fun and it was

00:16:31

it was purely fun really until I was

00:16:34

probably about 15 like yeah until I I

00:16:37

moved out to boarding school here in

00:16:38

Auckland to try and sort of be a bit

00:16:40

more serious about it but until then it

00:16:41

was just like a summer sport that I did

00:16:43

alongside all sorts of other ones

00:16:45

yeah

00:16:46

um so would you say you naturally

00:16:48

naturally talented or you just did the

00:16:49

hours you know these um Malcolm

00:16:51

gladweller he's got a book called The

00:16:52

Tipping Point he talks about the 10 000

00:16:54

hour Theory like ten thousand hours to

00:16:55

get to get you know it's good pretty

00:16:57

much as good as what you're going to get

00:16:58

and anything but you I suppose if you're

00:17:00

starting at two you would have got your

00:17:01

ten thousand hours under your belt quite

00:17:03

a quite a young age actually I think

00:17:05

probably not because I didn't play that

00:17:07

much yeah you know like

00:17:09

yeah in summer I was doing all sorts of

00:17:12

other stuff you know we were going

00:17:13

hiking surfing from a pretty young age

00:17:15

like basketball

00:17:17

um

00:17:18

yeah I reckon I was actually behind

00:17:22

the international level until I was

00:17:24

probably sort of early 20s uh terms of

00:17:27

hours yeah oh

00:17:28

um but you you so were you just sort of

00:17:31

naturally good then because I heard

00:17:32

stories about like you as a boy like

00:17:34

beating grown-ass men

00:17:36

yeah the truth was that what

00:17:39

like loaded up it doesn't have the

00:17:41

deepest pool of talent but if you but if

00:17:44

you're a primary school aged kid like

00:17:45

it's still you're beating an adult is

00:17:47

still a big thing I think

00:17:48

yeah so I think there was some natural

00:17:50

Talent uh

00:17:52

yeah yeah there was natural talent and I

00:17:55

think that took me

00:17:57

that took me quite far it took me to

00:18:00

like the top National level in age

00:18:02

groups and that sort of stuff

00:18:03

but then

00:18:05

you know so I I went to Europe for the

00:18:07

first time when I was 17 and that was a

00:18:09

punch in the face that was like oh you

00:18:11

just realized how [ __ ] you were yeah

00:18:13

exactly you know for tennis very small

00:18:15

pond here in New Zealand so I was like

00:18:17

okay you know I can just sort of this is

00:18:19

this is what I need to do to be a top

00:18:21

tennis player you get over there and

00:18:23

it's just like it's a completely

00:18:24

different level and uh and yeah I mean

00:18:27

the first three or four weeks that I so

00:18:30

I landed in Slovakia

00:18:32

and just jumped in the deep end in terms

00:18:34

of training I was like sort of six seven

00:18:36

eight hours a day couldn't straighten my

00:18:38

arms for the first like four weeks

00:18:40

because I just never done that sort of

00:18:42

training before and ultimately that was

00:18:44

too much training but yeah man it's it's

00:18:47

I think there's more of an understanding

00:18:49

now in New Zealand the type of work you

00:18:52

have to put in to make it at an

00:18:54

international level but I just had no

00:18:55

idea

00:18:56

wow

00:18:58

um a couple of things first of all I

00:18:59

want to know why you went to boarding

00:19:00

school in Auckland so you're in you're

00:19:02

in um the widered airport why don't you

00:19:04

go to like self-estream or in Wellington

00:19:05

or boys high in palmy purely purely

00:19:09

tennis uh so how do you mean

00:19:12

there were maybe three or four schools

00:19:15

in New Zealand that had a tennis academy

00:19:16

where you could be guaranteed you know

00:19:20

say two to three and a half hours of

00:19:22

tennis training a day uh

00:19:25

two or three of those are in Auckland so

00:19:27

I went to I visited a few

00:19:29

um and went to Saint Kent's for two

00:19:31

years

00:19:33

um and that was good there was a

00:19:34

stepping stone you know it was

00:19:35

definitely an increase in the amount of

00:19:36

training and then ultimately I did my um

00:19:39

I did my last year of school bike

00:19:41

correspondence from from over in

00:19:43

Slovakia and yeah why Slovakia that's

00:19:46

really it seems like a random place to I

00:19:49

mean if you said Florida and you're

00:19:51

going to Nick what's his name yeah like

00:19:53

has a training academy which has

00:19:55

produced so many champions that would

00:19:56

make sense what's in Slovakia not not

00:19:59

much

00:20:00

um yeah so I was working with a Slovak

00:20:03

coach here in New Zealand and he sort of

00:20:05

convinced me that Slovakia would be a

00:20:06

big jump

00:20:08

and yeah I went over there I think I

00:20:10

just turned 17. and he took me to his

00:20:14

hometown which was like a like 50 000

00:20:16

people this little town up in the

00:20:18

mountains in eastern Slovakia and

00:20:20

you know he was the only other person

00:20:22

there that I knew who spoke English and

00:20:24

slovakians apparently one of the hardest

00:20:26

languages in the world to learn it's got

00:20:28

an insane amount of different basically

00:20:30

doesn't have rules for a lot of the

00:20:31

stuff

00:20:33

um

00:20:34

and

00:20:35

it wasn't a step up uh and so after a

00:20:39

few months you know I tried to sort of

00:20:40

get guts it out and you know inherited

00:20:42

some stubbornness from my mother so

00:20:43

didn't really you know admit very

00:20:45

quickly that it wasn't great but then

00:20:48

knew I needed to change so uh moved to

00:20:51

the capital city to Bratislava and

00:20:52

trained it in an academy there and to be

00:20:55

fair like they had a few good tennis

00:20:57

players at the Academy and um yeah

00:21:00

eventually spent I think between two and

00:21:02

three years based out of there and in

00:21:04

hindsight I'd definitely do it

00:21:06

differently like I'd probably go to

00:21:07

college in the states

00:21:08

um or at least pick a country

00:21:11

that was closer in culture to New

00:21:13

Zealand yeah

00:21:14

um yeah it's a lot at that age 17. yeah

00:21:18

and Slovakia was different then too like

00:21:19

it felt very post-communist like it was

00:21:22

it was pretty pretty grim and harsh and

00:21:24

like a very different

00:21:27

attitude towards people in general I

00:21:30

think like the the way I describe it

00:21:32

when I was there was if you bump into

00:21:34

someone by accident on the street in New

00:21:36

Zealand you both apologize right so I'm

00:21:37

sorry

00:21:38

you bump to someone there they yell at

00:21:40

you you know it's like this different

00:21:41

sort of harshness or something

00:21:44

um and I eventually I found it

00:21:46

I felt like my personality was changing

00:21:48

there so I that sort of scared me so I

00:21:50

ended up leaving and and then uh found

00:21:54

the coach that I still work with to this

00:21:56

day uh in in England and was based there

00:21:58

for a long time is that is that Dave

00:21:59

Samwell it is yeah yeah so he um

00:22:02

he he has a phrase called um The

00:22:05

Traveler [ __ ] yeah which I've heard

00:22:07

you talk about on a couple of podcasts

00:22:08

what um how would you describe the

00:22:10

chapel of bullshep

00:22:12

the chapel of [ __ ] is when you

00:22:14

believe your own excuses and you let

00:22:16

them get in your way

00:22:19

where most excuses are [ __ ] and yeah

00:22:24

that's so he just calls you know

00:22:25

worshiping at the chapel of [ __ ] is

00:22:27

just believing your own excuses and and

00:22:29

letting them trip you up and it's so I

00:22:31

mean it it really is I think it's

00:22:34

it's present in every different area of

00:22:37

life and I think in sport it just gets

00:22:40

magnified and you can sort of identify

00:22:42

them more easily

00:22:44

um yeah you know like

00:22:45

and it and it I think

00:22:47

what what

00:22:49

uh conceived the chapel of [ __ ] chat

00:22:52

originally was I think I was playing a

00:22:54

match and it was really close and we

00:22:56

were in the tie breaker and the guy got

00:22:58

a lucky net cord and I lost the point

00:23:01

and I think I turned to Dave and was

00:23:03

like oh man it's not my day

00:23:05

which is absolute [ __ ] right you're

00:23:07

you're in a you're in a tiebreaker which

00:23:09

means your neck and neck and you lose

00:23:11

one point and over the course of a match

00:23:14

okay like there are pressure points and

00:23:16

tipping points and that sort of stuff at

00:23:17

one point you know it doesn't have to

00:23:19

mean that much

00:23:20

and that's I think what set him off and

00:23:23

um yeah it's it's fun it's fun actually

00:23:26

trying to identify these these you know

00:23:28

chaplain [ __ ] moments and yeah

00:23:30

you're smiling when you when you say

00:23:31

that uh does he tear you a new one oh

00:23:34

yeah yeah really so I lost that match

00:23:37

and two tiebreakers and I thought I

00:23:38

played pretty well like I thought I

00:23:40

fought hard

00:23:41

oh it's a close game close game against

00:23:43

the guy who was a lot better rank than

00:23:45

me and so it's a game you should have

00:23:47

lost so you took but that's chaplain

00:23:49

[ __ ] as well okay right like should

00:23:51

should doesn't really exist on the day

00:23:54

anyone could be anyone I'm a good player

00:23:56

on grass we're playing on grass courts

00:23:58

like should doesn't need to factor into

00:24:01

that equation

00:24:03

but so I'd warm down had a shower came

00:24:06

out to chat go over the match you know

00:24:07

it's sort of like a routine after a

00:24:09

match and he was there with his sort of

00:24:12

two IC at the time sat down at the table

00:24:14

and he just like launched into me for

00:24:16

like an hour and a half two hours like

00:24:17

he and when he gets going he can really

00:24:19

go and he's like a he's a big dude too

00:24:22

he's like six five like heavyset guy and

00:24:25

I was I was pretty shocked I think the

00:24:28

the first thing he said to me in that

00:24:29

chat was you are a [ __ ] tourist and

00:24:34

what he meant by that was I thought that

00:24:37

I was trying hard I thought that I was

00:24:38

putting everything into it but because I

00:24:40

was mentally letting these little

00:24:41

excuses sort of Weedle their way into my

00:24:44

brain

00:24:45

if you're not 100 mentally there then

00:24:47

you're not there like you're not trying

00:24:49

100

00:24:51

um if that makes any sense and yeah then

00:24:53

then he went on to the Chapel of

00:24:54

[ __ ] and you know it took me I think

00:24:57

sort of 20 or 30 minutes to

00:25:00

to come around but then so for the first

00:25:03

20 or 30 minutes you're sort of like

00:25:04

arguing throwing points back at him or I

00:25:06

was Defensive yeah like because I felt

00:25:09

like I'd tried hard and then it started

00:25:12

clicking what he was saying that oh yeah

00:25:14

that excuse wasn't necessary or maybe

00:25:17

I'll let that affect me more than I

00:25:18

should have and so you know over the

00:25:21

time I was like okay this this actually

00:25:22

makes sense and it was painful I mean

00:25:24

but but that's the beauty of sport and

00:25:26

how short the feedback loops are right

00:25:28

like you you can do something bad and

00:25:30

you know pretty instantly like that it

00:25:33

was bad and and you can work on

00:25:35

improving it straight away

00:25:37

um so we made an agreement that day that

00:25:41

going forward in training if I switched

00:25:44

off I think the agreement was if I

00:25:45

switched off for three shots in a row it

00:25:48

was either two or three shots in a row

00:25:50

then training over and we'd both agree

00:25:53

on what was a switch off and what wasn't

00:25:55

but for the first week or so I don't

00:25:57

think I made it past like 30 or 40

00:25:59

minutes of training and it was just

00:26:02

the the thing that shocked me and where

00:26:04

I knew that we were on something good

00:26:06

was it was exhausting like I was

00:26:09

exhausted after 30 minutes of training

00:26:11

just like mentally exhausted yeah but

00:26:13

because you're so mentally switched on

00:26:14

it means you do everything physically

00:26:16

better and if you're doing everything

00:26:18

physically better then physically it's

00:26:19

exhausting too like you know you take

00:26:21

those extra sort of three positioning

00:26:23

steps before each shot because that's

00:26:25

what you should do and you're not just

00:26:26

sort of coasting through a training

00:26:27

session so that was really interesting

00:26:30

and then that sort of stamina built up

00:26:33

over the weeks and that was actually the

00:26:35

start of me having more success and

00:26:37

tennis was that conversation so that 90

00:26:40

minute conversation it changed your life

00:26:43

really yeah I would say it it did and I

00:26:46

credit Dave with with most of the

00:26:49

professional success I had in tennis

00:26:51

like I've had a lot of coaches and

00:26:52

mentors

00:26:53

uh who who were a huge help but in terms

00:26:57

of sort of turning a corner at the

00:26:58

professional level then him and you know

00:27:01

the years of work that we put in and

00:27:03

that chat in particular I think really

00:27:05

made a step change yeah let's talk about

00:27:07

some of the um professional success with

00:27:09

the um would you say the bronze at the

00:27:11

last Olympic games from Tokyo as the

00:27:13

like the Pinnacle of your career like

00:27:14

without a doubt yeah yeah leagues ahead

00:27:16

yeah how good so that was the the covert

00:27:19

Olympics it was postponed a year yeah so

00:27:21

you've been to two you went to the Rio

00:27:23

games in 2016 and the Tokyo game so I

00:27:25

suppose you can compare the two so you

00:27:27

had like a normal Olympics and a

00:27:28

pandemic Olympics

00:27:30

um yeah let's go to Rio first so how was

00:27:34

the Olympic experience you're a kid from

00:27:36

masterton at Rio for the [ __ ] Olympic

00:27:38

Games

00:27:39

it's it's such a cop-out to say

00:27:42

Indescribable but it's just like

00:27:44

just like draw on the floor Eyes Wide

00:27:47

Open

00:27:48

and it was Mike Venus's first Olympics

00:27:51

as well and we were just like we had

00:27:53

bikes in Rio which is like biking around

00:27:55

the village just like looking at

00:27:56

everyone you're a [ __ ] tourist yeah

00:27:58

yeah absolutely we're terrorists and I

00:28:01

would say it wasn't a normal Olympics in

00:28:03

Rio either because there was the whole

00:28:04

zika virus here then so you know there

00:28:06

was a bit of fear in the air

00:28:09

uh the the Olympic Village was um

00:28:14

was put together so the last minute you

00:28:16

know had you had buildings that were

00:28:17

sort of malfunctioning one guy uh one

00:28:20

Martin del Potro

00:28:22

um he was playing like a quarterfinal

00:28:24

against Djokovic or something and his

00:28:27

elevator broke down in his building so

00:28:28

he's like stuck in the elevator for an

00:28:30

hour and a half so and oh actually one

00:28:33

time I remember uh there were really

00:28:35

high winds and and we were Mike and I

00:28:37

were eating lunch in the in the food

00:28:39

area and heard this huge smash it's like

00:28:43

I think it was one of the biggest tents

00:28:45

in the world and uh and this big slab of

00:28:49

plaster had fallen down from the roof

00:28:52

like 30 40 meters overhead just in front

00:28:54

of the door like two meters away from a

00:28:56

group that had just walked in because of

00:28:58

the wind and so there was stuff like

00:29:00

that going on at Rio where

00:29:02

yeah you don't think of that as like the

00:29:05

Olympic sort of standard you had like

00:29:07

big signs like windmilling over the

00:29:09

Olympics like it was it was pretty funny

00:29:12

but um

00:29:13

but yeah the atmosphere there was really

00:29:15

cool and do you see anyone of um anyone

00:29:19

of note are you saying bolt or I mean do

00:29:22

you get photos with anyone was it are

00:29:24

you too cool to do that no it wasn't too

00:29:27

cool I just felt sorry for them like

00:29:28

yeah yeah yeah saw Usain Bolt um one

00:29:32

thing that actually really surprised me

00:29:33

in Rio was

00:29:35

so there's like Usain Bolt who's he's

00:29:37

just the Godfather of Olympics right

00:29:39

he's like

00:29:40

Super Famous but then actually the the

00:29:43

ones who had the most attention with the

00:29:45

tennis players behind that so uh Andy

00:29:47

Murray was in the Olympic Village

00:29:48

Djokovic was there uh I remember sitting

00:29:52

at the same table as the William sisters

00:29:53

and they just couldn't eat lunch like

00:29:54

wow eventually they they actually just

00:29:57

like tossed their lunch and left because

00:29:59

they were just there was just a crowd

00:30:01

wanting selfies every every 20 seconds I

00:30:03

felt really sorry for them like

00:30:04

everyone's been doing a job ultimately

00:30:06

right yeah and you think if there's one

00:30:07

place that as an athlete you can sort of

00:30:09

relax and like be amongst your peers and

00:30:12

just be there it would be the Olympics

00:30:14

but I guess because sports are so

00:30:16

segregated most of the time

00:30:18

people don't see the other you know

00:30:21

famous athletes from different codes

00:30:22

that often so it still is a big deal but

00:30:25

but yeah it was like it's

00:30:28

it's a it's an outrageously special

00:30:32

environment particularly in the New

00:30:35

Zealand's team because there's all of

00:30:38

the

00:30:39

all of the culture and the Mana that

00:30:41

they bring with them and all the hackers

00:30:42

to to be welcomed to the building and

00:30:45

and you know like you you select a

00:30:48

greenstone medallion when you arrive and

00:30:50

it's all cut from one piece of rock it's

00:30:52

like we're all part of the same team and

00:30:54

that sort of stuff which

00:30:56

on tour you you're most often playing

00:30:58

for yourself you have your country name

00:30:59

next to you but it's like it's pretty

00:31:01

individual so to go from such an

00:31:03

individual world into something that

00:31:05

felt so team oriented that like it gives

00:31:08

me goosebumps man it's it's so cool

00:31:10

that's really cool and I mean you've

00:31:11

been to two uh Olympics and you've got a

00:31:13

medal to

00:31:14

um show for it most people wouldn't end

00:31:16

up with a middle so I suppose just being

00:31:18

there and soaking it up and getting that

00:31:19

greenstone Medallion that's uh yeah

00:31:21

that's what it's all about yeah or

00:31:23

already that special and in Rio Mike and

00:31:26

I actually we had match points in the

00:31:28

first round and lost

00:31:30

um to a team that I think ended up

00:31:31

playing for bronze and we were gutted

00:31:34

and it was always it was spoken like we

00:31:38

spoke to each other about it pretty soon

00:31:40

after like we have to come back and we

00:31:41

have to do better so even in Tokyo just

00:31:44

getting the first round win

00:31:46

even that was just like a huge weight

00:31:48

off my shoulders like okay you know now

00:31:51

have had some success at the Olympics

00:31:52

and and won't walk away from the whole

00:31:54

Olympic experience having had match

00:31:56

points and lost

00:31:57

um and then

00:31:59

you know coming away with some some

00:32:03

iron around the neck like that yeah it's

00:32:06

it was emotional stuff yeah how good how

00:32:09

good so yeah so that was a bronze at the

00:32:11

um the 2020 2021 games they were held on

00:32:14

though

00:32:15

um what an experience

00:32:18

I mean it's where is that now

00:32:21

it's uh they're not being a bloody

00:32:23

drawer it's not in a drawer

00:32:25

there's maybe the equivalent of a draw

00:32:27

it's it's I have a little bag that has

00:32:29

sort of you know the memorabilia from

00:32:31

that games you know like a sort of

00:32:33

Japanese

00:32:34

fan with the New Zealand team logo on it

00:32:37

and it's one of the cool

00:32:39

um bits of culture at the Olympics is

00:32:42

you sort of exchange little pins with

00:32:45

with other nations and other athletes

00:32:46

and so you're all the pins from the

00:32:48

different nations

00:32:49

and yeah I'm thinking I haven't got

00:32:52

around to it yet but it would be a

00:32:53

pretty cool thing to get framed at some

00:32:55

stage oh 100 so you're hoping to go to

00:32:58

the next ones right in Paris I'm hoping

00:33:00

is that the plan yeah

00:33:02

and will that still be um playing

00:33:04

doubles with Michael Venus yeah that's

00:33:06

the only option yeah I'd have uh I've

00:33:09

never been at a singles ranking where

00:33:10

I'd qualify for the Olympics and why

00:33:12

can't you um so this might be a really

00:33:14

dumb question but I don't know I'm

00:33:16

guessing there's a lot of people

00:33:17

listening that won't know either

00:33:19

um why are you so much better at doubles

00:33:21

than singles tennis is tennis right

00:33:24

yes and no so I think the best singles

00:33:27

players in the world if they turned

00:33:29

their focus to doubles would be very

00:33:30

very good doubles players but the skill

00:33:32

set is a little bit different so

00:33:35

I like to think that if I'd been born 30

00:33:38

years earlier I would have been a really

00:33:40

good singles player because my my

00:33:42

natural Talent is more with volleys and

00:33:45

and sort of feel around the net and and

00:33:47

being sort of at the front of the court

00:33:49

but with the way Technology's changed

00:33:52

over the last few decades the game has

00:33:53

slowed down a huge amount

00:33:55

serving as less meaningful

00:33:57

um and yeah netplay has has become less

00:34:02

attacking like because the courts are

00:34:04

slower it's harder to put the ball away

00:34:05

and people on the Baseline have more of

00:34:07

a chance to pass you so

00:34:10

these days that sort of skill set is

00:34:12

much more suited to doubles where you

00:34:14

know you hit a lot more volleys the

00:34:15

serve has more of an impact

00:34:18

um and I guess like to be quite Frank uh

00:34:21

the level at the top of the singles game

00:34:23

like it's harder to make top 50 in

00:34:25

singles than it is to make top 50 on

00:34:27

doubles I think there's there's more

00:34:28

depth there are more people who dream of

00:34:30

being top singles players and top

00:34:31

doubles players although even over the

00:34:34

last sort of 10 years that's actually

00:34:36

shifting like doubles is getting a lot

00:34:38

harder as we go yeah and so you and

00:34:40

Michael Venus how did that partnership

00:34:42

start

00:34:43

uh did you guys know each other growing

00:34:45

up going through yeah yeah yeah yeah he

00:34:48

um did you hate each other initially was

00:34:49

he like your fiercest rival no so he's I

00:34:52

think

00:34:53

um maybe almost two years older than me

00:34:55

so he he was more my brother I think he

00:34:58

was young for my brother's age group and

00:35:01

I don't think he'll mind me saying this

00:35:02

he was known as the Loose Cannon of that

00:35:04

age group he was he was Psycho when he

00:35:07

was younger like cheers over the fence

00:35:09

like matches

00:35:12

like like Nick kyrgios but but

00:35:16

there was no sulkiness to it it was more

00:35:19

just like rage

00:35:24

and he's found ways over time to sort of

00:35:28

Channel it but uh it's still sometimes

00:35:30

there like I remember Mike's got

00:35:32

unbelievable energy

00:35:35

um I remember playing at Davis so we we

00:35:37

first uh started playing together at

00:35:39

Davis Cup like when we come together to

00:35:41

represent the country

00:35:42

I remember playing against the

00:35:44

Philippines

00:35:45

in Cebu this island in the Philippines

00:35:48

it was the final match of the tire two

00:35:50

it was two matches all so it was a

00:35:52

deciding match and the winner of this

00:35:55

tie would get promoted to a higher group

00:35:57

and it was like three o'clock in the

00:36:00

morning so it'd been a long day and

00:36:03

there is there are two kiwi fans in the

00:36:06

crowd of probably like 2 000 around this

00:36:08

court and the Filipino crowd were being

00:36:11

intense that night as well

00:36:13

and he goes two sets to love down

00:36:17

starts coming back

00:36:19

it's the muggiest conditions I've ever

00:36:21

come across so like you know you're

00:36:23

changing shirts every sort of two or

00:36:25

three games and he wins the fourth set

00:36:28

so sends it to a decider

00:36:30

and I don't know where he got this

00:36:32

energy from but he just started jumping

00:36:34

up and down like a kangaroo and he did

00:36:36

it the whole fifth set for like an hour

00:36:38

he did he didn't sit down at the change

00:36:40

of ends he just kept jumping and I don't

00:36:42

know where it came from but he like saw

00:36:43

his opponent was flagging and just

00:36:45

channeled all of his like inner rage

00:36:47

energy into jumping like a kangaroo won

00:36:50

the fifth set sixth level something like

00:36:51

that and was just an absolute hero that

00:36:53

night so yeah that's he's found a way to

00:36:57

channel whatever energy he has inside

00:37:00

him into into positive energy these days

00:37:02

so good for him I suppose a relationship

00:37:04

like that especially like a

00:37:05

long-standing one it comes with its own

00:37:07

sort of um you know Dynamics and nuances

00:37:09

and stuff like do you do if things are

00:37:11

getting getting you know touchy with

00:37:13

with each other do you know to give each

00:37:14

other a bit of space or like how do you

00:37:16

manage are you quite good at

00:37:17

communicating if if there's something

00:37:19

bothering you or something bothering him

00:37:20

you know what that I think this was

00:37:23

actually one of the keys to us doing

00:37:24

well in Tokyo was we actually

00:37:27

we sat down when we first got to Tokyo

00:37:30

and said how are we going to make this

00:37:33

campaign a success and we actually met

00:37:36

with Jason McKenzie one of the New

00:37:39

Zealand Sports psychologists there and

00:37:41

said hey look like

00:37:42

we're really serious about doing well

00:37:44

here

00:37:45

um we want to know each other better we

00:37:48

want to know how to communicate how to

00:37:50

help each other in pressure moments and

00:37:52

we had quite a few conversations during

00:37:53

during the sort of 10 days two weeks

00:37:56

before we started playing in Tokyo and

00:37:59

it was that was amazing and then the

00:38:02

other thing that happened

00:38:03

um

00:38:04

we got absolutely pounded in the

00:38:06

semi-finals at the Olympics uh we lost

00:38:09

six two six two against the creation

00:38:11

team that

00:38:12

they were on fire but we we didn't even

00:38:15

get a foot in the door like we didn't we

00:38:17

didn't put up a fight in that match and

00:38:18

it felt terrible and

00:38:21

we went straight from that match to the

00:38:23

practice court and

00:38:25

we're out there for I don't know two

00:38:27

hours two and a half hours just like

00:38:28

talking things through talking through

00:38:31

what would happen if the same situation

00:38:33

came up the next day playing for bronze

00:38:35

and it's that sort of communication and

00:38:37

that sort of like

00:38:38

vulnerability and openness to like what

00:38:42

was going through your own head and like

00:38:45

if you're open with that then maybe your

00:38:46

partner can help you you know like

00:38:49

even admitting like hey I'm a bit

00:38:51

nervous you don't want to do that like

00:38:53

you want to pretend that now you're

00:38:55

ready like you're ready to go yeah but

00:38:58

if you admit it then your partner's got

00:39:00

a chance to talk you through it and and

00:39:01

you know maybe you get a better outcome

00:39:03

out the back so

00:39:05

the the way that Mike and I communicated

00:39:07

during Tokyo um

00:39:09

it was really cool just even if the

00:39:11

result didn't come out of it it was I

00:39:12

think a good way to go about it but then

00:39:14

I actually really do think it helped

00:39:15

results-wise yeah so you you never you

00:39:18

never blame each other or if if you do

00:39:21

do you keep it to yourself like if you

00:39:22

know if you're if you're having the game

00:39:23

of your life in the Heat and he's making

00:39:25

some unforced errors or whatever you you

00:39:27

know you just keep that to yourself for

00:39:29

yeah blame blame is toxic like

00:39:33

if you're having a crappy match you know

00:39:35

like on court if everyone knows there's

00:39:39

no way to hide yeah there's nowhere to

00:39:40

hide and

00:39:42

most of the time you know with because

00:39:45

Mike and I are both pretty open like

00:39:47

we'll acknowledge it on court be like

00:39:48

you know be apologizing if we make a bad

00:39:50

mistake or that sort of thing and then

00:39:52

it's the partner's job to say mate no

00:39:54

apologies uh we're here to win let's

00:39:56

just do the best of what we've got today

00:39:57

and there are ways you can sort of push

00:39:59

yourself through that and it's all just

00:40:01

part of the process of being

00:40:02

professional I think actually what

00:40:04

professionals do better than or you know

00:40:06

like as you go up the ranks what what

00:40:09

athletes do better is

00:40:12

acknowledging that something's off and

00:40:15

as quickly as possible figuring out the

00:40:17

process of either minimizing the damage

00:40:19

from that or working through it so

00:40:21

that's not a weakness anymore and

00:40:23

actually I think that's that's the thing

00:40:25

that I have the most admiration for with

00:40:27

you know the legends of the game is man

00:40:29

they figure things out so quickly if if

00:40:31

something's off and that's why it seems

00:40:34

like they hardly ever have a bad day

00:40:36

when you talk about the legends of the

00:40:37

game who do you mean like Rafa Fedora

00:40:39

Rafa Roger Novak yeah yeah even yeah

00:40:43

Andy Murray I'd put in that cam have you

00:40:45

ever played any of those guys

00:40:47

yeah uh

00:40:49

yeah I played I played

00:40:52

djokovico at Queens a number of years

00:40:54

ago I've never played against

00:40:57

Mario ruffa trained with Andy and

00:41:01

warmed up Federer one time and I I sat

00:41:05

on the there's a thing called the ATP

00:41:06

player Council

00:41:07

um I sat on the council with Rafa Roger

00:41:10

and Andy for a couple of years so sort

00:41:12

of got you know got to see inside their

00:41:13

head and and get to know them a little

00:41:15

bit which was really cool but

00:41:17

um yeah they they don't often play

00:41:19

doubles so yeah what's how did you get

00:41:22

on against Novak we won yeah really yeah

00:41:25

amazing yeah it must be satisfying it

00:41:28

was we should we should have won more

00:41:30

easily as well I think we both got a

00:41:31

little bit tight because we're about to

00:41:33

be you know one of the best players ever

00:41:34

but um one of the most crowded doubles

00:41:38

matches I've played as well

00:41:39

um yeah for those something like Novak

00:41:42

like when when someone beats them and he

00:41:44

must just get a little bit of Joy seeing

00:41:46

the excitement on their face like holy

00:41:47

[ __ ] nah man he's a competitor he's a

00:41:50

competitor through and through yeah he

00:41:52

was not happy

00:41:53

Stan had just lost a big three-setter in

00:41:57

singles and his I think his brain was

00:41:59

wavering a bit but

00:42:01

you know I'll take it oh 100 any day and

00:42:06

so um this might be another dumb

00:42:07

question but so so say say you're a

00:42:10

singles ranked player of I don't know

00:42:12

like 500. what's the difference between

00:42:14

say 500 from the world and and best in

00:42:16

the world or top 10 in the world like uh

00:42:18

can you still like when the occasional

00:42:20

set off those guys like as I suppose

00:42:22

what I'm asking is is the difference

00:42:24

incremental and how you play on the day

00:42:26

or is it just as Worlds Apart it's not

00:42:28

Worlds Apart at all so

00:42:31

I'd say so I'd say there's a difference

00:42:34

between the difference between 500 and

00:42:37

say 50 is Tiny

00:42:39

most people in that range would hit the

00:42:42

ball about the same pace and spin and

00:42:45

everything

00:42:46

as you get closer to 50 there'll be a

00:42:48

bit more consistency in terms of

00:42:50

placement uh but most of that is mental

00:42:53

rather than technical

00:42:55

and then when you go from 50 up to sort

00:42:57

of 10 then it I think there's a big

00:43:00

mental leap there as well and when I say

00:43:02

mental it's not just uh you know how

00:43:05

tough you are in pressure moments it's

00:43:06

like self-belief it's like do you feel

00:43:09

like you belong at that level I mean one

00:43:11

thing I struggled with at every level

00:43:13

going up was you know [ __ ] I'm from a

00:43:14

farm in New Zealand what what am I doing

00:43:16

at this tournament almost like an

00:43:18

imposter syndrome in a way absolutely

00:43:19

yeah and and actually that comes back to

00:43:21

tall poppy syndrome like you know watch

00:43:24

this little kid from what it up are

00:43:25

doing it on this stage

00:43:27

um and that's hard to get through and I

00:43:29

think most people to some degree have

00:43:31

that so they have to work through that

00:43:32

at each level and the people who raise

00:43:35

young

00:43:36

I think they've got like that switch

00:43:38

turned off in their brain I mean you

00:43:40

know off the top of my head guys like

00:43:41

kyrgios zverev Bernard Tomac even like

00:43:45

they're just Fearless like and there's

00:43:47

there's arrogance there but it's like

00:43:49

it's almost natural arrogance it's like

00:43:51

they they don't have to force it they're

00:43:53

just like yeah of course I'm going to

00:43:54

beat Roger at Wimbledon when I'm 16

00:43:56

because why wouldn't I I'm curious you

00:43:58

know

00:44:00

um but then when you go from

00:44:02

like 50 to 10 there's there's

00:44:05

to be top 10

00:44:07

you're a freak like you're not just a

00:44:10

freak physically and

00:44:13

by that I mean not only are you

00:44:15

outrageously physical and talented but

00:44:18

you're also very very robust like the

00:44:21

stresses that you put on your body and

00:44:22

in the top ten of singles is absolutely

00:44:24

nuts yeah but then the consistency that

00:44:27

you have to have mentally weaken week

00:44:29

out day in day out if you're top 10

00:44:31

you've got a huge Target on your back

00:44:32

and everyone who plays against you in

00:44:34

the early rounds of a tournament that

00:44:36

will be one of the biggest wins of their

00:44:37

life you know you have like

00:44:39

it's a stat for every player how many

00:44:41

top 10 wins do you have so you're like

00:44:44

their scalp that they want to take so

00:44:46

you have to be on your game every single

00:44:47

day and that's yeah that's

00:44:51

the the mental fortitude that those guys

00:44:53

have it's uh

00:44:54

it's it's scary to me well since

00:44:57

speaking of that so you've got a BA in

00:44:59

psychology has that sort of helped with

00:45:00

your tennis game

00:45:02

like I wish I could say yes

00:45:05

nothing in like in terms of like reading

00:45:07

opponents or maybe it's just helped me

00:45:09

realize how messed up I am myself

00:45:14

yeah

00:45:15

because at least part of it it's got a

00:45:16

curiosity about um psychology I'd love

00:45:18

to do papers but yeah the same reason

00:45:19

I'll be like no I I don't know if I want

00:45:22

to lift a little lid and look into

00:45:24

myself that much yeah I think like

00:45:28

honestly I think uh the

00:45:31

being in the sport and thinking about it

00:45:34

and talking with a coach about it you

00:45:35

learn far more about

00:45:38

your particular area of psychology like

00:45:41

sports psychology test psychology then

00:45:43

I'd ever learn in a ba

00:45:45

um

00:45:46

and I think

00:45:48

I think you know different things work

00:45:50

for different people so it's more of a

00:45:53

figure out what works for me and that's

00:45:55

a trial and error process rather than

00:45:57

do a few papers and it's like okay I can

00:45:59

apply all this Theory to myself it's

00:46:01

yeah I think it's a little bit messier

00:46:03

than that yeah

00:46:04

um have you ever read um agassi's book

00:46:06

open

00:46:07

yeah one of the one of the greatest

00:46:10

sports books of all time unbelievable

00:46:12

and so good yeah what's um

00:46:14

so yeah in that in that book he

00:46:17

was going to say it's a love hate

00:46:18

relationship with tennis but it's almost

00:46:19

a hate relationship like his dad made

00:46:22

him play at a young age and he sort of

00:46:23

loathes the sport has your love for the

00:46:26

sport wave but over the years or is it

00:46:28

just just love for tennis

00:46:30

no it's definitely wavered yeah I would

00:46:33

say I

00:46:35

I hesitate to believe the hate like yeah

00:46:39

he's still involved yeah he he hasn't

00:46:41

needed to be involved in tennis

00:46:43

for decades but he's still part of it

00:46:47

he's still part of the scene and stuff

00:46:48

so you know

00:46:50

I understand the hate part like it's it

00:46:53

it smashes you but uh man it's given him

00:46:56

so much and for me definitely like there

00:46:59

are a couple of times that I came really

00:47:00

close to quitting

00:47:02

um you know we were speaking earlier

00:47:05

you lose you you fail in tennis pretty

00:47:08

much every week like unless you're

00:47:10

winning a tournament it means you've

00:47:11

lost and

00:47:13

I've won five ATP titles in my career

00:47:17

and I think I played at the top level

00:47:19

so far for I don't know seven or eight

00:47:21

years so that's less than one sort of

00:47:24

top level title per year and that means

00:47:27

that I've had years where I've failed

00:47:28

every single week maybe I've won a

00:47:30

challenge a title but you know that as

00:47:32

you go up the rankings that means a

00:47:33

little less so dealing with that and you

00:47:38

know dealing with the sort of

00:47:40

all of those emotions of like I'm not

00:47:42

good enough what's wrong with me all

00:47:43

that sort of stuff I guess

00:47:46

it's it's incredibly difficult

00:47:49

and I also think it's the most valuable

00:47:51

lesson tennis can teach you because if

00:47:54

you can deal with that stuff like I just

00:47:56

feel like it arms you pretty well for

00:47:57

whatever comes to life yeah how do you

00:48:00

deal with that

00:48:03

it's it's hard it's hard to think in

00:48:05

outside of cliches with this stuff like

00:48:08

you know there are always learning

00:48:10

opportunities and failure and there are

00:48:11

usually more learning opportunities when

00:48:13

you fail than when you succeed and I

00:48:15

think that's so true yeah it's like it's

00:48:17

sort of a

00:48:21

it's like a enough of a shock that it

00:48:23

forces you to examine it and I think

00:48:25

some people some people work best with

00:48:28

being like okay I had a bad day move on

00:48:29

but I've always been of the type that's

00:48:31

like what did I do wrong why did I do it

00:48:34

wrong and and how could I improve it

00:48:36

um and that's you know you Wade through

00:48:38

the mud

00:48:40

um especially if you play a bad game

00:48:42

like you you know it takes some time to

00:48:44

sort of process yeah and deal with the

00:48:46

fact that you you didn't live up to your

00:48:47

own expectations

00:48:49

um

00:48:51

but that's yeah I think that's actually

00:48:52

that's part of the beauty of sport is

00:48:56

you know I actually the guy that that I

00:49:00

run home-backed athletes with Hugo

00:49:01

Engels this this is one of his phrases

00:49:04

but it's like you know sport takes you

00:49:07

from the ones to the tens just like sort

00:49:10

of week to week and I think

00:49:12

there aren't that many other areas of

00:49:14

life where you

00:49:15

experience those extremes of high and

00:49:18

low emotion so frequently and

00:49:22

it's hard but there's also it's pretty

00:49:24

cool you know like

00:49:26

experiencing the tens is amazing but

00:49:28

also experiencing the ones that you need

00:49:30

that for contrast and and it's kind of

00:49:32

like life really isn't it yeah yeah like

00:49:34

you need the lows to appreciate the

00:49:37

highs of course yeah yeah it's like life

00:49:39

there's highest lows and then just a

00:49:41

whole lot of nothingness

00:49:43

a whole lot of airports

00:49:46

um yeah how's your I mean like mentally

00:49:48

it's got a physically it's a tough game

00:49:49

like uh that's one takeaway from the

00:49:51

Agassi book open it's like he's in agony

00:49:54

um back issues all sorts but mentally

00:49:57

tough game as well do you have you seen

00:50:00

the the Maori fish do you know Marty

00:50:02

fish or you've seen the documentary on

00:50:03

Netflix I've seen the documentary I

00:50:05

don't know him personally so um the 2012

00:50:07

US Open he had anxiety and pulled out of

00:50:09

his um fourth round match with Roger

00:50:11

Federer like uh like Forfeit of the game

00:50:13

like just before he was about to go on

00:50:14

because he was having a having a panic

00:50:15

attack how's how's your um like mental

00:50:18

state been over the years

00:50:20

yeah I think

00:50:22

I think I've been really lucky honestly

00:50:25

um you know I talk about this with my

00:50:27

wife quite a lot uh

00:50:31

yeah I think

00:50:33

partly I think I've been lucky

00:50:35

genetically I think uh

00:50:38

yeah this is an interesting interesting

00:50:41

one because I think I'm lucky

00:50:42

genetically because I feel like despite

00:50:45

experiencing lows and I think I've

00:50:47

probably had a few patches of depression

00:50:48

in my life

00:50:50

I never feel helpless I always feel like

00:50:53

this is a low patch I'm really

00:50:55

struggling

00:50:56

but I don't think it's going to last

00:50:58

yeah type thing it's a circumstantial

00:51:01

depression like you've got a reason to

00:51:02

be depressed or yeah yeah yeah it's

00:51:05

usually like

00:51:06

injury you know I've had

00:51:08

far too long with injury yeah um even

00:51:11

you know

00:51:12

yeah the the last week actually of a um

00:51:16

I was struggling about you know I had a

00:51:18

second surgery on my knee and and

00:51:20

actually feel like the surgery went

00:51:22

really well but you know I haven't been

00:51:24

able to really be active and I find a

00:51:25

lot of joy in being active in my

00:51:27

day-to-day life and and then I was sort

00:51:29

of sort of getting to a stage where I

00:51:31

felt like I could start being more

00:51:32

active day to day and then I had to get

00:51:34

this this little benign growth thing cut

00:51:37

out of my back so it's like another week

00:51:39

where I got stitches in my back and and

00:51:41

can't you know not really allowed to

00:51:43

sweat and it's just really struggling

00:51:45

like you know like this Joy Giver of

00:51:47

being able to be out and about and get

00:51:49

sunshine and and you know get the

00:51:51

endorphins flowing so

00:51:53

yeah I like I do think I've experienced

00:51:56

depression

00:51:58

but

00:51:59

I think I'm probably luckier than most

00:52:01

in that

00:52:02

uh

00:52:03

whether it's through nature or nurture

00:52:07

I feel like I have a bit of perspective

00:52:08

on it when it happens

00:52:10

um early covert was another situation A

00:52:12

oh where were you were you in New

00:52:14

Zealand were you I was here when it all

00:52:16

kicked off but my wife so we were

00:52:18

actually based in New York at the time

00:52:19

and she was working for a law firm now

00:52:23

and I was here playing Davis Cup

00:52:26

and New Zealand was going to shut down

00:52:28

and it was like okay what do we do like

00:52:30

we're in different countries that's

00:52:31

right he was a mad rush home it's like

00:52:33

everything yeah hard to get flights even

00:52:35

yeah and I was thinking well [ __ ] if I

00:52:37

if I don't leave New Zealand now maybe I

00:52:41

won't be able to and win one XE may

00:52:43

actually she was she was my girlfriend

00:52:45

at the time

00:52:47

um and so I chose to go over there

00:52:50

and

00:52:51

so I flew over but didn't really have

00:52:53

anything to do

00:52:55

um you know the tour stopped she was

00:52:57

working ridiculous hours for that law

00:52:59

firm like you know sort of 16 17 hours a

00:53:00

day so didn't really see her that much

00:53:03

um and it was winter in in Northern

00:53:04

Connecticut and

00:53:06

went through a really dark patch of uh

00:53:09

just sort of purposelessness and and

00:53:11

um

00:53:12

yeah waking up and being like

00:53:15

another grade day like what am I doing

00:53:18

with my life and But ultimately you know

00:53:20

another like that was probably the

00:53:22

longest patch of depression I feel like

00:53:23

I've had but ultimately ultimately it

00:53:25

led to a lot of self-reflection and and

00:53:27

then led to high impact athletes like

00:53:28

okay well how do I want to act in the

00:53:30

world how do I want to live in the world

00:53:31

and and that was sort of what led to the

00:53:33

conception of hia so

00:53:35

I mean yeah really long-winded answer

00:53:37

but I I've definitely been through low

00:53:38

patches but I think

00:53:40

firstly with I think a little bit of

00:53:42

luck genetically and secondly with you

00:53:44

know having having the resources with a

00:53:46

coach that I could speak to when I'm

00:53:47

feeling really down uh more recently to

00:53:49

to have access to some of the sport New

00:53:52

Zealand Sikes and and being able to have

00:53:54

those sorts of chats like I feel really

00:53:55

lucky with

00:53:57

with you with how being able to deal

00:53:58

with with those sorts of things yeah

00:54:00

you're quite good at talking about

00:54:01

things

00:54:02

you're quite good at being open and

00:54:03

vulnerable

00:54:04

I think so the the thing that the thing

00:54:07

that I wonder is

00:54:09

even now I'm wondering you know saying

00:54:12

like I think I'm lucky

00:54:13

I wonder if that's a little bit of the

00:54:15

Kiwi play it down like you know like

00:54:19

cover it up sort of stuff and whether if

00:54:22

if somehow this show was lifted off that

00:54:25

maybe there'd be more there that I just

00:54:27

haven't allowed myself to access like

00:54:29

it's one one thing that actually

00:54:31

I kept myself for a long time

00:54:33

um when I was in Slovakia I got pretty

00:54:36

badly beaten up by by a few guys uh I

00:54:39

was on a night out with it with a group

00:54:40

of friends and just went outside for a

00:54:42

bit of fresh air and got like bottled

00:54:44

from behind and

00:54:45

um so yes like 17 18. I think I was yeah

00:54:48

maybe like just before I turned 18

00:54:50

around round 18. and got beaten up badly

00:54:54

like you know bottle from behind kicked

00:54:57

on the ground tried to like manage to

00:54:58

get up tried to swing my way out of it

00:55:00

but they they got me down again

00:55:02

basically kicked me unconscious and

00:55:06

I I was lucky like you know stitches

00:55:09

stitches in the back of my head like a

00:55:10

under my eye and stuff

00:55:13

um

00:55:14

and outside of that you know like didn't

00:55:17

have any like permanent injuries

00:55:20

but

00:55:22

I I never sort of acknowledged it really

00:55:25

uh I'm I managed to convince so you know

00:55:30

I had to get some brain scans and stuff

00:55:31

because I was pretty shaken up uh and it

00:55:34

cost quite a lot I managed to convince

00:55:36

the insurance company because I was

00:55:38

under my parents health insurance

00:55:39

medical insurance or whatever it was

00:55:42

managed to convince them to say to my

00:55:44

parents that I'd fallen down the stairs

00:55:45

and like tripped over a dog

00:55:47

um why because you didn't want them to

00:55:48

worry because I didn't want them to

00:55:49

worry and I just you know like I was on

00:55:51

this path of like trying to be a tennis

00:55:52

player and I thought my mum would say

00:55:54

well that's it you know you're coming

00:55:55

home this is two dangerous type stuff

00:55:57

and and so just like took me a couple of

00:56:00

weeks to recover before I could start

00:56:01

training again but just sort of okay

00:56:03

that happened I'm not gonna go to that

00:56:05

place again and sort of lay low

00:56:07

uh and then I just carried on and that

00:56:11

sort of stuff talking about with my La

00:56:13

my wife like you know over a decade

00:56:15

later

00:56:16

who has a lot of experience with therapy

00:56:18

and and really believes in it and in its

00:56:21

power to to help people

00:56:22

and you know it sort of gets me thinking

00:56:25

well what have I buried what have I just

00:56:27

sort of said okay well that's that's

00:56:28

done I've dealt with it I'm gonna move

00:56:31

on but you know what's what's covered up

00:56:33

and

00:56:35

yeah I just I just don't know I don't

00:56:36

know if I'm

00:56:38

if I've actually been able to deal with

00:56:40

those things because I feel like I have

00:56:41

but um who knows yeah well the fact that

00:56:45

you can talk about it so openly I think

00:56:46

that's uh I mean it says you haven't

00:56:49

like buried at all necessarily

00:56:50

compartmentalize it I know I think

00:56:52

that's a good thing where you you say

00:56:53

your wife's running to therapy is that

00:56:55

um just the Americans that are psyche I

00:56:58

think partly yeah um

00:57:00

you know like she's her family I think

00:57:03

we're we're on the other end of the

00:57:05

Spectrum in terms of bad luck in terms

00:57:07

of um

00:57:08

you know like generational family

00:57:10

history of addiction and and that sort

00:57:12

of stuff and uh

00:57:14

I know she's she's struggled with with

00:57:16

bouts of depression in her life and

00:57:18

anxiety and um

00:57:21

has done a huge amount of work

00:57:22

personally uh you know she's she's

00:57:26

been doing yoga

00:57:28

at a very deep level and by that I mean

00:57:30

you know like beyond the physical

00:57:32

movement you know going deep into the

00:57:34

the spirituality and the sort of that

00:57:36

side of it for probably about 15 years

00:57:38

now and

00:57:40

as a meditation teacher and you know

00:57:41

meditates every day and and is

00:57:43

constantly doing work on trying to keep

00:57:46

herself level and and that sort of stuff

00:57:49

and it's

00:57:50

it's it's pretty cool to see like you

00:57:53

know she's she's using the tools that

00:57:55

she feels best to to

00:57:57

better her own life and um

00:57:59

and therapy is just another one of those

00:58:01

tools for her it's cool because I don't

00:58:03

think there's a like a one-size-fits all

00:58:04

layer I think but I think you need to

00:58:05

work out what's right for you in terms

00:58:07

of you know your mental health and your

00:58:08

happiness and your resilience and take

00:58:10

it from there are you do you think

00:58:12

you're a naturally resilient person or

00:58:13

do you think you've built resilience

00:58:15

over the years with um tennis and

00:58:17

everything else

00:58:18

I'd say it's a bit of both yeah I think

00:58:20

you know both my parents come from

00:58:22

generations of farmers and I think

00:58:24

there's

00:58:26

maybe it's a generalization there but I

00:58:27

think there's a natural resilience there

00:58:29

or just like a get on with it and that

00:58:31

sort of thing which could be good or bad

00:58:32

yeah um

00:58:36

but yeah I mean you have to learn

00:58:38

resilience in tennis the whole failure

00:58:40

thing if you can't if you can't learn to

00:58:43

deal with bad times then you can't be a

00:58:45

tennis player and I'm actually one thing

00:58:48

I'm interested in so I've I've listened

00:58:51

to a few of your podcasts and you you

00:58:52

talk about your own therapy is this

00:58:54

something that you

00:58:56

do you have a regular

00:58:58

a regular practice with therapy or is it

00:59:01

something that you turn to when you feel

00:59:02

like you need it yeah I haven't been in

00:59:04

a couple of years

00:59:05

um but I'm actually finding this podcast

00:59:07

and these conversations kind of like

00:59:09

therapy in a way but I am I put off

00:59:11

going for I never went until I was like

00:59:13

mid 40s and um I don't know why but I

00:59:16

was [ __ ] scared of going I was like I

00:59:18

suppose you know part of its fear of

00:59:20

what they're going to find part of it is

00:59:23

like sitting with a stranger and being

00:59:25

like completely open and honest and

00:59:27

vulnerable it's it's uh you don't know

00:59:29

where to start and I went in for that

00:59:31

first session because I was like I need

00:59:32

to sort my [ __ ] [ __ ] out so I went in

00:59:34

and sat down and then you you know you

00:59:36

I left an hour later and it was like a

00:59:38

personal trainer for your head and it

00:59:40

makes perfect sense like they're trained

00:59:41

and they're going to make it easy yeah

00:59:43

so it's not like I had to sit there and

00:59:44

go right back to the very beginning of

00:59:46

my life yeah so I I found it I I was

00:59:49

actually mad with myself and embarrassed

00:59:51

actually when I left that first session

00:59:52

because it's something that I needed and

00:59:54

I've put off for years and years and

00:59:56

years and it was just dumb yeah dumb

00:59:59

um but it's really good I'd recommend it

01:00:00

to anyone it's just a shame that there's

01:00:02

a lot of people that could really do

01:00:03

with it but it's um yeah the cost is

01:00:04

prohibited yeah and I think there's

01:00:06

still in the states there's zero stigma

01:00:09

attached to it now you know like it

01:00:11

would be normal in a conversation even

01:00:13

with relative strangers to be like oh my

01:00:15

therapist said XYZ and I think in New

01:00:19

Zealand that would still perk people's

01:00:21

ears up rather than just being sort of

01:00:23

part of the normal discourse you know

01:00:24

like

01:00:25

mentioning casually that you go to

01:00:27

therapy isn't yet as normal here as it

01:00:30

is there

01:00:31

um but one thing it still probably has a

01:00:33

certain amount of stigma attached to it

01:00:34

in a way I guess I one one thing my wife

01:00:37

has always said uh I'm not sure if I

01:00:40

agree with that and I'm interested in

01:00:41

your takeers so she she has regular

01:00:44

sessions with her therapist and she

01:00:46

finds that the regularity is incredibly

01:00:50

helpful because

01:00:51

it's almost in the sort of

01:00:54

the moments where you don't think that

01:00:56

you have something that you need to deal

01:00:57

with that it will pop up and and

01:01:00

she said she's actually made most of her

01:01:02

biggest breakthroughs not when she's in

01:01:04

crisis but when she's just in a regular

01:01:05

session yeah and that's seems sort of

01:01:08

counter-intuitive to me like I've turned

01:01:10

to sports sucks into the resources that

01:01:12

I have if I'm feeling really bad and

01:01:14

it's like okay I feel really bad I need

01:01:15

to fix this but then there's this whole

01:01:17

other way of thinking of like no this is

01:01:19

yeah like going and seeing a personal

01:01:20

trainer everywhere that makes a lot of

01:01:22

sense like an ambulance at the top of

01:01:24

the club versus the bottom yeah I think

01:01:26

yeah I think there's a there's a lot in

01:01:28

that but again

01:01:30

yeah how did you guys meet

01:01:34

she's super smart right like Harvard

01:01:37

trained she's annoyingly smart yeah

01:01:40

um yeah I don't think you're only you're

01:01:42

a slouch either

01:01:43

I still managed by comparison I managed

01:01:45

to beat her at word games which really

01:01:47

frustrates her it's the best thing well

01:01:49

I like Wordle yeah like like word or um

01:01:53

Scrabble or whatever she hates it

01:01:55

um but we we met actually

01:01:59

um we got match made by a friend that I

01:02:01

grew up with and wanted upper

01:02:03

was doing a law Masters at Columbia

01:02:07

and I got to New York a few days before

01:02:10

my Airbnb started for the US Open and

01:02:14

you know I like always scratching to

01:02:17

make ends meet so rather than pay for a

01:02:18

hotel for a few nights I sort of thought

01:02:20

who do I know in in New York that I

01:02:22

could maybe crash on the couch for a few

01:02:24

nights and I got in touch with her and

01:02:26

uh turned out she was house sitting this

01:02:28

beautiful like four bedroom house in

01:02:30

Brooklyn for a while so yeah the the

01:02:32

people who owned it said it was fine for

01:02:34

me to stay and so we were just hanging

01:02:36

out and she got it in her head that um

01:02:38

that she needed to introduce me to one

01:02:40

of her friends while I was in New York

01:02:41

so it was just like scrolling through a

01:02:43

phone and giving giving grades to to her

01:02:46

available friends and she got to what

01:02:48

have you been giving grades like b-plus

01:02:51

that's the like in terms of what like

01:02:54

physicality or a whole package I guess a

01:02:57

whole holistic package

01:02:59

um

01:03:00

but she she got to Cairo and it's just

01:03:03

refreshing that uh that a female is

01:03:05

doing that yeah I know right like I was

01:03:07

actually quite surprised myself she got

01:03:08

she got to care she said uh Kara is an A

01:03:11

plus plus but I think she's got a

01:03:13

boyfriend so but she said you guys

01:03:15

should meet anyway because you just have

01:03:16

awesome conversations I was like okay

01:03:17

cool yeah whatever I'm I'm down to meet

01:03:19

people who I'd have a good chat with and

01:03:22

in between that and actually meeting up

01:03:25

with Caro found out she didn't have a

01:03:27

boyfriend anymore I think you know it's

01:03:28

like a few weeks out of a relationship

01:03:30

with something but anyway it was still

01:03:31

we're still thinking like this is just

01:03:33

someone I'm gonna have a chat with it's

01:03:35

not it's not a date or anything like

01:03:36

that so we met up for coffee and a walk

01:03:40

on the Hudson and and

01:03:42

um just ended up chatting for like three

01:03:44

hours and didn't want it to stop we both

01:03:47

I had training and she was um so she she

01:03:51

was doing a a law degree at Columbia at

01:03:54

the time that's how they knew each other

01:03:55

and

01:03:56

we both had to split but we didn't want

01:03:58

the conversation to end so actually

01:04:00

organized to meet again that night and

01:04:02

that was that that evening sort of felt

01:04:04

like a date and wow yeah it's not nice

01:04:07

those occasions in life and it's um it's

01:04:09

very rare but when when you meet someone

01:04:11

and it's almost like time stands still

01:04:12

low

01:04:13

it's remarkable like you can go on a

01:04:15

date with someone it could be awkward

01:04:16

and there's just nothing there and it's

01:04:18

evident very early on or then there's

01:04:20

the opposite which is like what you guys

01:04:21

had yeah and it's for me it's

01:04:25

the the coolest thing about my marriage

01:04:28

is I know that in 50 years

01:04:32

we're still going to have interesting

01:04:34

conversations and that

01:04:36

I just love that idea like she she

01:04:39

spends so much time growing as a person

01:04:42

and pushing herself in different

01:04:44

directions and you know like being

01:04:46

curious and trying to open a mind in

01:04:48

different ways and that's always been

01:04:50

sort of the way that I try to approach

01:04:52

life as well that you know we're

01:04:53

obviously we're both going to change and

01:04:55

grow a lot over the years but I just

01:04:56

always think that we're going to be able

01:04:58

to

01:04:58

to push and pull each other in ways that

01:05:00

will be challenging and and I get

01:05:02

excited about that it's

01:05:04

it's cool to think that you know like I

01:05:06

don't think boredom is ever going to be

01:05:07

part of the equation oh that's really

01:05:09

sweet that's really nice where do you

01:05:10

think you'll um end up remaining

01:05:13

New Zealand that's a tricky question

01:05:14

yeah um you don't have any kids here hey

01:05:17

we don't we have a dog which my wife

01:05:21

she treats the dog like that like I'm

01:05:23

worried how much she's gonna spoil kids

01:05:25

it's outrageous I'm a dog guy as well

01:05:29

and I think um kids end up doing things

01:05:31

that annoy you right

01:05:32

dogs are just perfect right right yeah

01:05:35

they you know even the annoying stuff

01:05:37

they do is tolerable but kids end up

01:05:38

becoming annoying okay so yeah I can I

01:05:41

can see that I mean although you know

01:05:43

like the dog recently has done a thing

01:05:44

where he started pulling her undies out

01:05:47

of the out of the laundry and and

01:05:49

chewing through them but she doesn't

01:05:51

find it annoying she's like oh that's

01:05:52

sweet you know just just who's not yours

01:05:56

a little bit a little bit messed about

01:05:58

it to be honest but

01:06:00

um

01:06:01

oh yeah no no kids we we are you know

01:06:04

we're hoping to have kids at some point

01:06:06

and

01:06:07

the the thing is

01:06:09

like I I've I love New Zealand and I've

01:06:12

wanted to I've desperately wanted to

01:06:15

live here for the last 15 years that

01:06:16

I've been overseas like I've

01:06:18

you know I miss this place yeah when I'm

01:06:20

away

01:06:21

um and so having you know sort of been

01:06:24

forced to be based here over the last

01:06:25

year and a half because of injury but

01:06:26

man it's been so cool in so many ways

01:06:28

just even even just being able to be

01:06:30

grounded a little bit and not have to

01:06:32

travel every week yeah

01:06:34

um yeah so you you messaged me um last

01:06:37

week about doing this podcast and I said

01:06:39

oh come around come around the following

01:06:40

Monday which is today

01:06:42

um you said on your first email that um

01:06:44

I think I'm going to be in the states

01:06:45

yeah yeah so we're we're heading away

01:06:48

Friday right so this is like

01:06:50

this is the challenge I think is so

01:06:52

she's really close to her family

01:06:54

um really close to her mother and they

01:06:56

live on the east coast of the states and

01:06:58

that's a long way away

01:06:59

um so

01:07:00

uh heading over there for about a month

01:07:02

and

01:07:04

you know like the other thing is

01:07:07

I like how small New Zealand is and and

01:07:09

I've never needed big cities like I sort

01:07:11

of run in the opposite direction from

01:07:13

from big cities you live in Raglan now

01:07:15

yeah and it's perfect yeah you know like

01:07:16

it's feels like a great balance to me of

01:07:19

enough going on that I don't feel like

01:07:21

I'm missing out on anything but

01:07:23

um quiet enough that you know I don't

01:07:25

feel sort of cramped and New York was

01:07:27

the opposite I really struggled there

01:07:30

um I regardless of who you are you feel

01:07:32

invisible in New York don't you and that

01:07:34

can be nice but yeah yeah and it's so

01:07:37

life on tour is so hectic that when I

01:07:40

come back from being on tour I want to

01:07:42

be able to relax and it's for me it was

01:07:44

impossible to relax in New York but

01:07:46

yeah so I'd like

01:07:48

for her having you know a law degree

01:07:50

from from one of the top universities in

01:07:52

the world like it's it's quite limited

01:07:54

what she can do with that in New Zealand

01:07:56

compared to the states what do you mean

01:07:58

you think um it would open any doors you

01:08:00

wanted to

01:08:00

yeah it's just like so so at the moment

01:08:03

she's working on a lot of

01:08:05

um for example like false advertising

01:08:07

law uh legal challenges to some of the

01:08:10

biggest corporations in the world so she

01:08:12

works for for a firm that's based on the

01:08:15

East Coast

01:08:16

um but she can't for example go to the

01:08:19

hearings and you know one of the cases

01:08:21

might be argued in the Supreme Court uh

01:08:23

in the future and uh she can't go and

01:08:26

attend that which if you're a lawyer

01:08:29

that's probably you know like the

01:08:30

Olympics of of law election if she's

01:08:33

based in New Zealand she can't pursue

01:08:35

those sorts of career opportunities

01:08:36

right and

01:08:38

in a sense you know I've

01:08:41

I've had the luxury of being able to

01:08:44

pursue like with all of my being a

01:08:47

career in tennis for a long time and she

01:08:49

hasn't been doing it for that long like

01:08:51

she she

01:08:52

spent so long studying and loved it but

01:08:55

you know she's she's only really been

01:08:57

working for sort of three or four years

01:08:58

and is sort of still in the stepping up

01:09:00

process so I suppose I suppose yeah for

01:09:03

what you do at 33 it's like definitely

01:09:05

into the second half or to even tail end

01:09:07

of your career but for a law thing I

01:09:09

suppose she's just ramping up yeah yeah

01:09:12

and started picking in her 50s

01:09:13

potentially yeah so it's like how how

01:09:16

can

01:09:17

is there a way that we can have our cake

01:09:19

and eat it too where she has the

01:09:21

opportunity for her career and we have

01:09:24

the lifestyle that that we want to have

01:09:26

it's like it's a tricky yeah tricky

01:09:27

situation and and post tennis for you

01:09:29

what's the what's the plan um stay at

01:09:31

home Dad and just um hia

01:09:34

Dash that doesn't sound bad

01:09:37

um sounds idalic yeah yeah I mean

01:09:41

yeah I the cool thing the cool thing

01:09:44

about being injured is I've thrown

01:09:46

myself at home-backed athletes for the

01:09:48

last year and a half and I've really

01:09:49

enjoyed it like it I feel like it's

01:09:51

grown a lot since then and it is

01:09:54

something that I get pumped to wake up

01:09:56

and work on

01:09:57

and I think a lot of athletes actually

01:09:58

really struggle with with what happens

01:10:00

after sport you know that

01:10:02

it is a big void you you spend

01:10:06

all of your waking hours

01:10:08

thinking about your sport or at least

01:10:10

that's that was the case for me and it

01:10:12

was you know even if you're not at the

01:10:13

tennis courts or in the gym everything

01:10:16

that you do outside of it is geared

01:10:17

towards it like what am I going to eat

01:10:19

tonight how is that going to help me

01:10:20

train better tomorrow you know what time

01:10:22

am I going to go to sleep am I gonna am

01:10:24

I gonna walk and explore this city or is

01:10:27

that going to be too tiring for my legs

01:10:29

so I can't train as well you know like

01:10:30

everything you do is get around sport so

01:10:33

when you give it up there's this big

01:10:34

void and you have to feel it somehow and

01:10:35

I feel really lucky that hia is like

01:10:39

feels like it feels that that void

01:10:40

pretty well

01:10:42

um

01:10:42

But ultimately I want ultimately I think

01:10:45

every charity or every non-profit's goal

01:10:48

should be to not have to exist right

01:10:50

like ultimately I want to try and solve

01:10:53

the problem of of athletes just deciding

01:10:56

that part of being an athlete is giving

01:10:58

back in a really effective and

01:11:00

significant way and and if we do that

01:11:02

you know if we can make it a norm in the

01:11:04

athlete space then we we don't need to

01:11:06

exist anymore and that's that's the

01:11:09

ideal and then after that who knows yeah

01:11:11

and um how's the body now are you on the

01:11:14

mint you're on the way back yeah I am on

01:11:16

the mend yeah um

01:11:18

yeah I so I had my first jog yesterday

01:11:21

uh after the second knee surgery and you

01:11:24

know it was like one minute jog four

01:11:25

minute walk so very very light but

01:11:28

basically pain-free and I've got a great

01:11:31

team I'm training out of Cambridge at

01:11:32

the velodrome there um I have a great

01:11:34

team that I'm working with there

01:11:37

um So the plan is the plan is get

01:11:39

healthy get strong

01:11:41

slowly return to tennis because you know

01:11:43

after a year and a half of not hitting

01:11:45

balls my wrist is

01:11:47

is going to take a long time to sort of

01:11:49

get used to that repetition and get

01:11:51

robust again but the idea is to try and

01:11:54

start with the ASB classic at the start

01:11:55

of next year

01:11:57

awesome and so when was the last time

01:11:58

you swung a record has it been a long

01:12:00

time yeah I mean so after the first

01:12:02

surgery I tried to come back a few times

01:12:04

and I think two or three times had a hit

01:12:07

and it's just it's just in a lot of pain

01:12:10

um so over the last year and a half I

01:12:12

probably spent like an hour and a half

01:12:14

total on court so the last time I really

01:12:15

properly swung the racket was Australian

01:12:17

Open last year is there um a fear that

01:12:20

you you know your game won't come back

01:12:22

the way it was or do you think it's like

01:12:23

a muscle memory thing or you're entirely

01:12:26

confident that uh it's going to be sweet

01:12:28

as

01:12:30

I think I'd be lying if I said I'm

01:12:31

entirely confident yeah

01:12:33

um yeah it's got it's got to be a bit of

01:12:35

anxiety there yeah

01:12:38

I'm entirely confident that I could get

01:12:40

back to a level of uh

01:12:45

of com of I reckon

01:12:47

I'm 100 confident I could get back to

01:12:49

top hundred

01:12:51

getting back to top 50 level or like you

01:12:54

know like challenging for the deeper

01:12:56

level deeper stages of grand slams

01:12:58

that's that's interesting because

01:13:02

that's not just physical that's like

01:13:03

your belief your mind has to be really

01:13:06

really sharp and and sort of

01:13:09

um you can't have any any chunks in your

01:13:11

self-belief there so

01:13:13

again sort of going back to imposter

01:13:15

syndrome

01:13:17

one thing that I'm gonna have to be very

01:13:19

conscious about dealing with is you know

01:13:21

always in the past I worked so hard

01:13:23

because I had this thing where I felt I

01:13:25

needed to feel like I deserved results

01:13:27

yeah and that for me was well I know

01:13:30

that I've put the same amount or more

01:13:32

hours in than the people around me and

01:13:35

the reality is over the last year and a

01:13:37

half I've put you know I've put a fair

01:13:39

amount of hours into my physical side

01:13:40

but nothing it's tennis so it's going to

01:13:43

be figuring that piece out I think yeah

01:13:45

well that's terrifying and exciting yeah

01:13:48

an equal measure that's an interesting

01:13:50

challenge

01:13:51

um but I I feel like you're in a lucky

01:13:52

position where it's like you're not

01:13:54

you're not going to be defined by tennis

01:13:57

yeah you know what I mean well I I hope

01:13:59

so actually I really hope that I thought

01:14:01

there's way more to you than just the

01:14:02

tennis and you know it would be

01:14:06

it would be a privilege if

01:14:08

whatever I've done in tennis gets

01:14:10

forgotten about uh because it's been

01:14:12

overshadowed by high impact athletes or

01:14:14

you know that sort of stuff like I'd

01:14:15

consider that a big one yeah yeah

01:14:18

wouldn't it be funny of 20 years from

01:14:19

now a fun fact the hia guy anyway

01:14:26

with everything thank you so all going

01:14:28

well we'll see you back on tennis court

01:14:31

yeah so um I have to be really strategic

01:14:34

about uh when I start competing because

01:14:36

there's all this protected ranking sort

01:14:38

of admin

01:14:39

um ideally I'm on a tennis court

01:14:41

training at Full Steam by sort of

01:14:44

October this year and hopefully

01:14:46

competing uh first week of next year

01:14:49

oh good oh yeah the um Heineken open yes

01:14:52

yeah the Auckland tennis tournament yeah

01:14:54

singles or doubles or both

01:14:57

doubles uh yeah

01:14:59

it would be impressive if I could if I

01:15:01

could get

01:15:02

at age 33 make a second career out of

01:15:05

singles yeah

01:15:06

um yeah doubles

01:15:09

hesitation there

01:15:11

well actually you know why I was

01:15:12

thinking on the drive up here I was

01:15:13

thinking

01:15:14

it might not be a bad idea when I start

01:15:17

training again to train singles because

01:15:19

it will be a bit more repetition through

01:15:21

the body it'll be a harder version like

01:15:23

a more physical version of tennis

01:15:25

through the body so if I can if I can be

01:15:28

robust playing singles then I can

01:15:30

probably be robust playing high high

01:15:33

level doubles and I think

01:15:37

because I'm not as good at Singles I can

01:15:39

probably get a lot of good competition

01:15:41

in New Zealand on the singles Court

01:15:43

who knows you know maybe sign up for for

01:15:46

ASB classic qualities and and

01:15:49

see what I can do I don't have any

01:15:53

expectations there like I've got

01:15:54

negative expectations on on the single

01:15:56

score uh watch the space Oh what's

01:15:58

what's Michael Venus been doing while

01:15:59

you've been out injured uh he's been

01:16:01

cracking on he's playing with uh Jamie

01:16:04

Murray

01:16:05

um they won an ATP title yesterday in

01:16:10

Geneva uh so the the

01:16:13

tournament and the lead up to Roland

01:16:14

garroth so the French Open starts either

01:16:16

today or yesterday

01:16:18

um

01:16:18

I mean he's he's been truly world class

01:16:21

for the last five six years you know

01:16:23

um sort of hanging in the top 20 and

01:16:27

I've got a I I have to give a huge

01:16:29

amount of credit to Mike because

01:16:31

he sort of broke the seal in New Zealand

01:16:33

he won the French Open

01:16:36

it's like 2015 or something like that

01:16:39

prove to

01:16:40

us bunch of kiwi tennis players who are

01:16:43

trying to make it pro that we could and

01:16:46

being the first person to do that is the

01:16:48

hardest and then you know the

01:16:50

Trailblazer right yeah it helped me it

01:16:52

was like okay I know Mike I know Mike's

01:16:54

level he's really good but I don't feel

01:16:56

like I'm worse and so like if he can do

01:16:59

it then maybe I can do it and I feel

01:17:00

like he's you know that was a gift to to

01:17:03

a lot of other kiwi tennis players does

01:17:04

that so yeah sorry I was just wrapping

01:17:06

up but I just think about the um the

01:17:08

Dynamics of like a double scenario

01:17:11

how does it feel from your perspective

01:17:13

when you were out injured and he's

01:17:15

cracking on with another partner

01:17:18

I mean so we never we never played uh

01:17:21

the tour together we played a few

01:17:22

tournaments here and there but we've

01:17:24

never had a long-term partnership but

01:17:25

was always when we played for the

01:17:26

country we played together

01:17:28

um

01:17:29

they're uh yeah I'm gonna be totally

01:17:32

transparent here there are some people

01:17:34

that when they win I'm like oh you know

01:17:36

like that like that should be me but not

01:17:39

with Mike yeah um

01:17:41

yeah with with kiwis I feel like I'm

01:17:43

just stoked when they win and I feel I

01:17:46

feel like tennis is underrepresented in

01:17:48

New Zealand I mean it's a huge Global

01:17:50

Sport and uh I wish it had a bit more

01:17:53

recognition and you know a bit more sort

01:17:55

of

01:17:56

a wider community and a bit more sort of

01:17:59

uptake in New Zealand so the better

01:18:01

kiwis can do I think the the happier I

01:18:03

am

01:18:04

that's awesome oh you're a good man

01:18:07

um congratulations on everything you've

01:18:08

done and uh I think congratulations too

01:18:12

for everything that you're gonna do in

01:18:13

the future

01:18:14

oh thank you it's going to be a hell of

01:18:15

a life thank you and thanks for having

01:18:17

me on and and for you know providing a

01:18:19

platform to talk about this stuff I

01:18:21

think the the platform that you provide

01:18:22

is really valuable not just you know for

01:18:24

you know people like me who want to talk

01:18:26

about non-profits and charity and that

01:18:28

sort of stuff but also the the way that

01:18:29

you talk about mental health and and

01:18:31

being open with that side of things I

01:18:33

think you know especially men in New

01:18:35

Zealand probably have a ways to go with

01:18:36

that stuff and so normalizing it and and

01:18:39

sort of bringing it more into the

01:18:40

mainstream is really valuable yeah well

01:18:42

thank you uh well I mean I've just been

01:18:43

like overwhelmed really by how

01:18:46

um open and transparent everyone has

01:18:48

been that's been on the the podcast it's

01:18:50

just normalizing these conversations say

01:18:51

rather than just sort of like bearing it

01:18:53

in the shadows yeah and I think it's I

01:18:55

think it's a really cool thing like I'm

01:18:56

I'm you're 33 I'm 50 now so I was from

01:18:58

born in that and raised in that

01:19:00

generation where yeah you guys don't cry

01:19:02

uh you know Real Men drink beer all that

01:19:05

sort of stuff so it's it's nice to sort

01:19:07

of um like change that narrative a bit

01:19:09

yeah nice oh well done hey Marcus Daniel

01:19:11

thank you so much man good luck favorite

01:19:13

thing thanks

01:19:14

thank you

01:19:18

[Music]

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Episode Highlights

High Impact Athletes
Marcus Daniel founded a non-profit to promote effective charity giving among athletes.
“I believe that we have the potential to do a huge amount of good in the world.”
@ 02m 16s
July 01, 2023
The Drowning Child Essay
Marcus shares a powerful philosophical argument about the moral obligation to help others.
“Why aren’t we doing that every day?”
@ 12m 30s
July 01, 2023
The Chapel of Bullsh*t
A powerful concept about believing your own excuses and letting them hinder your progress.
“Worshiping at the chapel of bullsh*t is just believing your own excuses.”
@ 22m 25s
July 01, 2023
Olympic Experience
Describing the surreal feeling of being at the Olympics, especially in Rio.
“It’s just like draw on the floor, eyes wide open.”
@ 27m 42s
July 01, 2023
Emotional Success
Winning a bronze medal at the Tokyo Olympics was a pinnacle moment in his career.
“Coming away with some iron around the neck, like that, it was emotional stuff.”
@ 32m 06s
July 01, 2023
Channeling Inner Rage
An athlete channels their inner rage to perform exceptionally during a crucial match.
“He just kept jumping and I don't know where it came from.”
@ 36m 40s
July 01, 2023
The Importance of Communication
Effective communication is key to success in high-pressure situations, especially in sports.
“If you admit it then your partner's got a chance to talk you through it.”
@ 38m 51s
July 01, 2023
Navigating Mental Challenges
Athletes often face mental challenges, including feelings of inadequacy and depression.
“Dealing with the emotions of like I'm not good enough, what's wrong with me?”
@ 47m 42s
July 01, 2023
The Cost of Silence
He managed to convince his parents he fell down the stairs after an injury.
“I’d fallen down the stairs and like tripped over a dog”
@ 55m 45s
July 01, 2023
A Chance Encounter
They met through a friend's matchmaking, leading to an unexpected connection.
“It felt like a date and wow, it’s very rare”
@ 01h 04m 07s
July 01, 2023
Facing the Unknown
He shares his anxiety about returning to tennis after injury.
“I’d be lying if I said I’m entirely confident”
@ 01h 12m 31s
July 01, 2023
A Legacy Beyond Tennis
It would be a privilege if my tennis achievements are overshadowed by greater impacts.
“It would be a privilege if whatever I've done in tennis gets forgotten about.”
@ 01h 14m 06s
July 01, 2023

Episode Quotes

Every dollar that you give does the same when it gets to the charities.
Marcus Daniell - Winning an Olympic Bronze Medal, Founding a Charity, Mental Health, and more!
I think there’s more of an understanding now in New Zealand.
Marcus Daniell - Winning an Olympic Bronze Medal, Founding a Charity, Mental Health, and more!
It gives me goosebumps, man, it’s so cool.
Marcus Daniell - Winning an Olympic Bronze Medal, Founding a Charity, Mental Health, and more!
Dealing with the emotions of like I'm not good enough, what's wrong with me?
Marcus Daniell - Winning an Olympic Bronze Medal, Founding a Charity, Mental Health, and more!
It was like a personal trainer for your head.
Marcus Daniell - Winning an Olympic Bronze Medal, Founding a Charity, Mental Health, and more!
That's terrifying and exciting, yeah, in equal measure.
Marcus Daniell - Winning an Olympic Bronze Medal, Founding a Charity, Mental Health, and more!

Key Moments

Charity Discussion03:15
Chapel of Bullsh*t22:25
Bronze Medal at Tokyo32:11
Kangaroo Energy36:40
Toxic Blame39:23
Emotional Struggles47:42
Highs and Lows49:37
Therapy Insights59:38

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