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All Blacks Legend Frano Botica: Truth About Buck Shelford & WILD Fight In Argentina

October 12, 2025 / 01:45:10

This episode features an interview with Frenobotica, a former rugby player who played for the All Blacks and transitioned to rugby league. Key topics include his career highlights, personal challenges, and current life as a real estate agent.

Frenobotica discusses his experiences playing for the All Blacks and the Kiwis, including memorable moments like his first test against France and the 1987 Rugby World Cup. He reflects on the camaraderie among teammates and the challenges of transitioning from professional sports to everyday life.

He shares insights about his health, including a stroke he suffered and how it has affected his lifestyle. Frenobotica also talks about his family, including his seven grandchildren, and the importance of communication in relationships.

The conversation touches on his time in Wigan, England, where he became a prominent player in rugby league, and the cultural differences between rugby union and league. He emphasizes the significance of enjoying life and spending time with loved ones.

Frenobotica concludes with reflections on legacy, pride in his career, and the importance of being a supportive figure for his family.

TL;DR

Frenobotica discusses his rugby career, health challenges, and life as a real estate agent while reflecting on family and legacy.

Episode

1:45:10

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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is

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the center of performance. Whenever

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there's a top performance in New

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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's

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Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that

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for days. That's the boys who got the

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hole in one in to

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Hey Finn, how's the performance going?

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>> Top tier.

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>> Nice. This is our generate room. In

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here, you'll find our top performers

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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver

00:00:24

investments. Get in here, Finn.

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Maximize. Generate. putting performance

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first.

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>> Fanobotica, the Croatian sensation,

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welcome to my podcast.

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>> Thanks, Tom. Glad to be here.

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>> Do you um you asked me just before we

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started recording um what the what the

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ground rules were for language on the

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podcast, which What do you want to say

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exactly?

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>> Well, um sometimes I put my foot in my

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mouth and and say things I shouldn't

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say. So, um, now it doesn't matter, does

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it? So,

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>> no, it sure doesn't. So, the Croatian

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sensation, that's one of your nicknames.

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Any other nicknames? Any other good?

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>> I didn't know that was one, actually, to

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be fair. No. Um, bots, skinny.

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>> Um, black. Oh, no. I can't say that.

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>> You can. I can't.

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>> Yeah, I black ass, I suppose.

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>> Um, the Croatian sensation, not a

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nickname. I thought that was your

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nickname in um, Wigan. Um, no. No. I

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don't know where that came from.

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>> You never heard that before.

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>> No.

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>> All right. It's a good one though. It

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makes you sound like a

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>> Maybe I was. I don't know.

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>> So, um, Fredo Bodica, I I've done some

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facteing. Let's see if I've got this

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right. So, you played in four black

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jerseys. The All Blacks, um, the Kiwis,

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the Moldi, and the Sevens.

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>> Yep.

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>> Yep. Um, you also played rugby for

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Croatia.

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>> Yes, I did.

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>> What else? Um, coached Fiji?

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Nope.

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>> Didn't you do some coaching for Fiji for

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the 2015 World Cup?

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>> No. No. Oh. Oh, yeah. I went actually I

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came

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>> actually Yeah, I forgot about it.

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>> I came in I came in as a guest for a

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guest appearance with the help with the

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backs and some kicking.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Um but yeah, I forgot but that was only

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a you know a one a one day wonder,

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>> right? Um an incredible career too. 18

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year 18 year career. Yeah, it's uh the

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body has felt that you know I've been

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through a few operations after since I

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finished and

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>> and that but yeah it was a it was either

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that mate or go to work and so I was

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trying to prolong the go to work as much

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as long as I could. So at the detriment

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of my body. Yeah, I want to get into all

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of that because um I I can't imagine

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that transition part's easy like going

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from being, you know, such a such a a

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player um and then having to like you

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return to like normal life. But we we'll

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get into that later because it's got to

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be a huge a huge adjustment piece. Um

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but yeah, what are you doing now? You're

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a real estate agent.

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>> Real estate agent. Yep. For Bailey's up

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in Odia. Yep. So uh um start with with

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the Odia branch on uh on Monday. So

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looking forward to that. I live up in

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Gulf Harour, so the office is nice and

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handy.

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>> You still get um recognized quite a bit

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or you when people see your name on real

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estate signs, they get they get a little

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bit excited.

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>> The older generation, yeah, the younger

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ones go, "Who the hell is this for?"

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>> Is that Is that quite nice though, sort

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of being a little bit anonymous or

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>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't mind it at all.

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Doesn't bother me whatsoever, you know.

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Mhm.

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>> Um but yeah, I still get a lot of the

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older generation saying hello and and

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and

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funny funnily enough in uh up in Gulf

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Harour, there's about I don't know 20 or

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30 Wiganers who live there and they all

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know who I am. They used to come some of

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them used to be at my uh at the games

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when when they were kids and now they're

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adults.

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>> So yeah, so that was interesting.

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>> Yeah, cuz that's a that's a big part of

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your story. We'll get into that. So you

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played for the All Blacks, then you went

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to and played for Wigan for five years

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and you were like a legend over there.

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The Croatian sensation apparently first

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first player fastest player to score a

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thousand points.

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>> Yep. Yep.

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>> Yeah. So you're a big deal.

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>> Yeah, it was. Yeah, it's uh

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>> when I got to Wigan, it was um it was a

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team full of superstars. It was a team

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full of internationals. There was 12

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internationals in that team. So I had to

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sort of try and figure out how I can be

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different and try and make the team in

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the one spot that they didn't have an

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international. So and that was on the

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wing. So um I figured out very quickly

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that I had to learn to kick better than

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I I was kicking.

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>> But you were one of the best in the

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world right at kicking.

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>> I I was um but I wasn't when I arrived.

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I was um obviously second string in the

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abs because Foxy was a lot a heck of a

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lot better than I was goal kicking and

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tactically kicking. So um

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>> I didn't put as much time and effort in

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practicing because I was thought to

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myself, well man, I'm not going to beat

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Foxy, so

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>> why bother trying? You know, which is a

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bit of a negative

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>> defeist attitude.

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>> It was a defeist attitude. Definitely.

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Definitely. But um um I learned from

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that and and figured out that I didn't

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want to the same thing to happen again.

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So

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>> best I practice.

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>> Man, I'm so excited to have you here.

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There's like just from that answer you

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gave there like there's there's so much

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to um dig into around that. I've

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actually got um an old teammate of

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yours, Warren Gatlin, coming up for a

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podcast in a couple of days. And I I

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obviously I was prepping for this

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interview and I was prepping for Gats at

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the same time. And there's parallels

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with you two, like you you you spent

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your all black career in the shadows of

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Grant Fox. He spent his all black career

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in the shadows of Fitzy.

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>> Fits. Yeah.

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>> So you two were just

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were always on the bench or or dirty

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duties.

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>> What's a dirty dirty?

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>> Um well, back in the day, we used to um

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have dirty duties. So they they're the

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guys who aren't sitting on the bench or

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playing. And your job was to go out and

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see where all the bars were for after

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the game. It was a tough job, but we had

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to go out and and someone had to do it.

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So, and we also had um we also had to

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sell some tickets for pocket money for

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the team. Um so, we'd go around trying

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to sell some of our um our allocated lot

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of tickets. So, which was tough work,

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man.

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>> Was that Was it tough work?

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>> Well, it's tough work. If you had if you

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hadn't sold them all um by the time the

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game started, you were out the front

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before the game. finding anyone who was

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looking for tickets. So,

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>> oh my god, this is so amateur. E, it's

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crazy,

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>> mate. It was it was crazy. Yeah. But

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those are the things we had to do to to

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get some extra money in the coffers for

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for the boys, you know. So,

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>> why were you called dirty dirties? What

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What does that mean?

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>> I don't know. I don't know where it came

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from, mate. Just Well, because you're so

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low ranked, you're down by in the dirt,

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I suppose, cuz you're not in the team.

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You're not on the bench. So you might as

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well just go down in the dirt and do

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whatever you you have to do. And I

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suppose I know we were on a Saturday

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morning before the game or a Wednesday

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on in the on the big tours, we um had to

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get up and go and train and it was

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normally a flogging cuz we'd had a

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couple of beers the night before

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and we had to sweat that out. So So we

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did. Yeah. So

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>> um

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how's your health? Well, you uh you were

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telling me just before you had a stroke

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last year, but you you pulled up to the

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Pod Lab Studios today and there's um

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there's like a trades entrance and you

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you were quite prepared to climb up

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there. So, you're obviously still in

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good nick.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a health and

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safety issue. Actually, you need to put

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some signs up there, mate. I actually

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thought, [ __ ] what's wrong with these

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guys? They're cheap, man. They haven't

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even got a ladder. I got to stand on the

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seat and then jump in the door. Like,

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>> yeah.

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>> Next one. Are you 60

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>> 62?

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>> 62. Yeah. You're in good shape. How's

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the body?

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>> Um, apart from this the stroke I had,

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um, yeah, it's getting better. Getting

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better. You know, I try to stay healthy

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and fit. Uh, but I suppose sometimes

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there are certain underlying health

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things that you don't know about and

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they creep up on you if you're not

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staying on top of it. So, and I thought

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I was on top of it. Um, but I missed

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something. So,

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>> was that terrifying?

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>> Um, it was to start with. Yep. Yep. But

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um I've I've learned to

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I mean look it it I lost a little bit of

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vision in my peripheral but um other

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than that um it's not too bad. Had a few

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little operations on on the heart but

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again nothing serious just in one day

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out the same day. So um yeah starting to

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feel really good.

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>> Um and and hopefully just it'll get

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better from here.

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>> Did you have to make any significant

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lifestyle changes or anything?

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>> Um yeah, mainly just training. Um my my

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sport um for the last 20 years has been

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been outrigger canoeing wak arama and I

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used to you know I'd be getting up at 5

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4:30 every Tuesday Thursday morning and

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and and going to the Takapuna beach and

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and and with a group of guys and

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paddling every morning you know so to

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stop that and I've stopped I stopped it

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a year ago that's been pretty tough

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probably just because of I'm used to

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doing something in a team sport. I hate

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training by myself. That's why I enjoy

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the uh the six man outriggers.

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>> I think that paints a picture of the

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sort of the sort of guy you are and the

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sort of life you're living now. Like

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you're obviously very disciplined. Um

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yeah, quite I mean to get up at 4:30 in

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the morning twice a week.

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>> Yeah. Something like like exercise or

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sport then yeah I'll get up I'll get up

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early. I mean, I I love watching sport

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on TV, but obviously the MS doesn't like

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all the rugby and and the golf I watch

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and the cycling, so I've got to get up

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early sometimes just to fast forward it

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all and get through it before she gets

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up. So,

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>> there's so much sport, eh?

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>> It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

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>> Um, yeah, you you mentioned your MS just

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then. Just before we started recording,

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you told me you're engaged. I said,

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"Congratulations." Um, you told me not

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to get too excited because you've been

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engaged for like 14 years.

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>> 14. How does that happen? I know.

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>> How do you get engaged and then manage

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to avoid a wedding?

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>> Oh, well, look, um, everything's going

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along nicely. Uh, Anna is is is not that

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fussed about, um,

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getting married at the moment, I

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suppose, and obviously uh,

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things cost a lot of money these days.

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So,

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so we're happy.

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Are you are you enjoying this this age

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and stage of life that you're at now and

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in your early 60s? A granddad?

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>> Yeah, I'm a granddad. Uh unfortunately,

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my grandkids live

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two live over in um in France and and

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the other five are in the Hawks Bay. So,

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I don't see as much of them um as as I

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would like. Um but then so in saying

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that when the five from the Hawks Bay

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come up after two days I'm like holy

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[ __ ]

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You can go and help.

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>> Yeah. But no it's it's good being a

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grandad.

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>> Yeah. Well that's cool. Well let's go

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let's go back to the uh the early years

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and we'll paint a picture of um who

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body. So you're from Mangakino.

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>> Yep. Born mangakino.

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>> Yeah. Um Willie Apiata is from there

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too. Do you know Willie Apiata, the

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Victoria Cross winner?

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>> No, mate. I

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>> I wish I did in case I was in trouble.

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But um

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>> I heard I heard him in an interview talk

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about being from um um Mangakino. And I

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wondered if you could sort of resonate

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with this like with the success that

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he's enjoy enjoyed in his life. He's

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like, "Oh, you know, a small small moldy

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boy from Mangino."

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>> Do you do you feel the same way like um

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that you know, are you punched above

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your weight like being from such a small

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sort of place? Um my dad was down that

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way working. Um and and

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fortunately or unfortunately um we I

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left there when I was young like

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a year old or something or 6 months old

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I can't remember. Um and moved up to

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Oakland so um I didn't really can't

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really remember anything of of those

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times but

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>> certainly glad that I was born down that

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way I suppose.

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>> Yeah. And uh you see you're part

00:12:39

Croatian, part Maldi.

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>> Yeah.

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>> So the Frano that's um the Croatian word

00:12:43

for Francis.

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>> Frank.

00:12:44

>> Frank.

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>> Yeah.

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>> Yeah.

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>> So who who's who on your on your parents

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side?

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>> My um uh my dad's

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uh father is a was creation from um

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Kchilla in uh which is just a little

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island off to Brvnik. So beautiful

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little part of the world

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>> and everyone seems to go there now for

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holidays and the the the Croatian

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coastline is beautiful. So

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>> Oh, it's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. I've

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been to the old town of De Brvnik and

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Split and Havar.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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>> Everyone everyone does sailed Croatia.

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Are are you are you quite connected with

00:13:22

um with with your cultures?

00:13:24

>> No, not so much. No. Um having lived

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overseas a fair bit um yeah. No, I I not

00:13:31

as much as I've I would have liked. I

00:13:33

you know, I can't speak today. I I can't

00:13:36

speak Croatian. Um which I wish I could.

00:13:40

Um the unfortunate thing about when we

00:13:43

were growing up is that the my

00:13:46

grandfather

00:13:49

didn't want to teach my dad and and the

00:13:52

rest of my uncles and aunties Croatian

00:13:55

because he said, "You're never going to

00:13:57

go back there." because obviously he was

00:13:59

over here just after the war

00:14:02

um the first world war and so so they

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didn't learn it at all. He wouldn't

00:14:07

speak it so which is a shame.

00:14:11

>> Yeah.

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>> Not that it's something that you sort of

00:14:15

had a choice in but is it a regret of

00:14:16

yours?

00:14:17

>> Yeah, definitely. Definitely

00:14:20

>> more so um to um but again living

00:14:25

overseas a lot it's pretty hard to pick

00:14:27

it up.

00:14:28

>> Um my sister is is is is has been

00:14:31

learning it for the last two or three

00:14:33

years. So that's great to see.

00:14:36

>> But no, not me.

00:14:39

>> Too old to learn. I'm like I'm like it

00:14:43

was so hard at school just I was I was

00:14:46

one of those pupils who was there to

00:14:48

play rugby and and do other sports and

00:14:51

that was it.

00:14:52

>> Yeah.

00:14:52

>> Yeah. So

00:14:54

>> well it worked out all right for you in

00:14:55

the end. What what are your earliest

00:14:57

memories and particularly your earliest

00:14:59

um rugby memories?

00:15:01

>> You're a league family. E

00:15:04

>> Union

00:15:04

>> Union family

00:15:05

>> Union family. Union family. Um, first

00:15:07

memories, um, first memories are going

00:15:11

to to Northshore Rugby Club with my dad.

00:15:14

Um, he used to use me as an excuse on

00:15:16

the weekends for getting home late. Uh,

00:15:21

thinking telling mom that I was playing

00:15:23

with all the kids out on the on the

00:15:25

field, which I was, but only because he

00:15:28

was still inside having a beer, you

00:15:30

know. And back in those days, you can

00:15:31

imagine that, you know, the the drink

00:15:33

driving rules were quite a little bit

00:15:36

more relaxed. So, so yeah, is going down

00:15:39

there watching uh watching those guys

00:15:41

play and run around and and and always

00:15:44

wanting to be one of them one day. Um,

00:15:47

and it got started because I lived in

00:15:50

Glenfield. Uh I went to the Glenfield

00:15:52

Rugby Club and my memories of

00:15:57

uh like uh bun fights after, you know,

00:16:01

at the end of the season uh playing

00:16:03

rugby with with all my mates in the air

00:16:05

in the in and around the streets we

00:16:08

lived and jumping in um their father's

00:16:12

parala and because we were dirty,

00:16:15

there's five of us in his boot, you

00:16:17

know,

00:16:19

and we thought it was Hey, you know, you

00:16:21

Oh, we can jump in the boot.

00:16:24

Yeah. So, you probably not get away with

00:16:25

that these days, but we enjoyed it back

00:16:28

then.

00:16:29

>> Yeah. Yeah. These um these are great

00:16:30

memories. They haven't aged particularly

00:16:32

well though over the last 50 odd years.

00:16:34

>> Yeah, I've got similar memories. Were

00:16:36

you Were you a good kid? Were you Did

00:16:38

you get in much trouble as a kid?

00:16:40

>> No. No. I was I was I think I was a

00:16:42

pretty good kid. Yeah. I think I um I

00:16:44

did probably pick up a bit of a few

00:16:47

things like um I got my speed from my

00:16:51

dad and um not because not because of of

00:16:56

that he had it because he was a prop

00:16:59

although he'll tell me that he used to

00:17:01

be a 10 once and he was pretty quick.

00:17:03

I'm like a year radio. Um but because I

00:17:06

was um always got in trouble and I had

00:17:09

to get out of the house before he got

00:17:11

hold of me and gave me hiding

00:17:14

a justified kick up the backside, you

00:17:16

know. So I used to sprint out across the

00:17:19

balcony, hurdle a fence without him

00:17:22

without touching it and he wasn't

00:17:23

hurdling no fence and those and I just

00:17:26

stand on the other side till he calmed

00:17:28

down.

00:17:32

Unfortunately,

00:17:33

he's got a long memory.

00:17:36

So, although he'd calmed down, I still

00:17:38

got to boot up the ass and your usual

00:17:40

sort of back in those days, you know.

00:17:42

>> Yeah. And what about the uh the goal

00:17:44

kicking? Where did that start? Why did

00:17:46

that start?

00:17:48

>> Uh I think it's it started really when I

00:17:50

was um

00:17:53

probably

00:17:55

doing it part-time at Westlake Boys when

00:17:57

I was in the first 15 there. Um, and

00:18:02

from then on it was just like a

00:18:05

um it wasn't a passion to be a goal

00:18:08

kicker because I didn't want to be a

00:18:09

goal kicker. Um, but it was um

00:18:13

there was no one else really to do it

00:18:15

back in those days. There was a couple

00:18:17

of other guys I think uh remember Billy

00:18:19

Balden the

00:18:21

um

00:18:22

>> the cricket umpire?

00:18:23

>> Cricket umpire. Well, he was in the

00:18:25

first 15 with me as well. In fact, he

00:18:28

was 10, I think, and I was 12. And he he

00:18:31

used to I think he used to think he was

00:18:32

better than me.

00:18:33

>> Amazing. He's one of the most flamboyant

00:18:36

and animated cricket umpires.

00:18:38

>> He was a bit like that when we were at

00:18:39

school, too. Bit of a strange dude. I

00:18:43

mean, he's a friend of mine as well. But

00:18:45

I mean, I'm like, he's bit strange. But

00:18:48

>> you can say that if you're friends of

00:18:49

But you were you were really really

00:18:51

good. Everyone talked about your

00:18:52

technique and how good you were. Was it

00:18:54

was it like our natural talent or was it

00:18:56

just like 10,000 hours of practice

00:18:58

outside on your own or

00:19:00

>> um to start with before I got to Wigan

00:19:02

it was just on a Friday before a game.

00:19:05

Um and then I was either really good or

00:19:08

really bad

00:19:10

and every now and then in the middle,

00:19:12

you know what I mean? So it was it was

00:19:15

because I hadn't done didn't really

00:19:16

practice you know

00:19:18

and

00:19:20

because Foxy was around it just meant

00:19:22

that I mean I did it for North Harbor

00:19:24

when North Harbor split in 85 and and

00:19:27

was reasonable at at that level but I

00:19:30

again I just didn't if you remember

00:19:32

North Harour back in the day all we did

00:19:35

was throw the ball around

00:19:37

>> you know so even inside our own 22

00:19:39

behind our line we used to throw it

00:19:41

around a lot So really wanted to score

00:19:44

more tries and kick kick the goals. They

00:19:46

were a bonus but between myself and uh

00:19:50

and uh um Paul Feny. Um we used to share

00:19:56

the kicking so and a few other players

00:19:59

along the way. Um, so I didn't really

00:20:02

get into that, like I say, until I got

00:20:04

to Wigan in in a more serious

00:20:08

um, vein and trying to try to figure out

00:20:12

again how I could make that team, you

00:20:13

know. So, because I wasn't it was being

00:20:16

on the wing and wigan and I'd never

00:20:19

played wing before, but didn't look that

00:20:21

hard. Didn't have didn't have to think

00:20:23

too much, you know, like just get the

00:20:26

ball and run, center set you up, that

00:20:28

sort of thing. Um, and we had some

00:20:30

pretty good centers there. Um,

00:20:34

and yeah, so that's how it all started

00:20:36

slowly.

00:20:37

>> So, a lot of it was natural cuz I've had

00:20:39

Grant Fox on the podcast and he he

00:20:41

talked about practicing for hours and

00:20:42

hours every spare minute on on his farm

00:20:45

growing up.

00:20:46

>> We all know the Dan Carter story like

00:20:47

there was some rugby goalposts in the

00:20:49

the in the the front yard of their

00:20:51

house, which he he practiced until dark

00:20:53

until his parents called him in for

00:20:54

dinner. Not the same. Not the same for

00:20:56

you.

00:20:56

>> Yeah. No, no, no. This is a This is a

00:20:59

real flex.

00:21:00

>> No, I had a We had a backyard, but

00:21:03

no post on it. We used to play cricket

00:21:05

and break the window. So, there's no way

00:21:06

I'm kicking a rugby ball to break a

00:21:08

window because I'll get in trouble. So,

00:21:11

>> so no, but I mean, I became good at goal

00:21:15

kicking because I I did what those guys

00:21:19

did, but I just did it a lot later, you

00:21:23

know.

00:21:23

>> Incredible.

00:21:25

Can

00:21:25

>> Can you watch kickers now without

00:21:27

analyzing them? Like if you're watching

00:21:28

a game when you

00:21:31

>> I will I will. Yeah, I do. I do. I do. I

00:21:34

watch I don't I don't mean to. If it if

00:21:37

they zoom in and it's right the camera's

00:21:40

right behind them and they're in the

00:21:41

corner and there's kicking, then I'll

00:21:43

I'll analyze them,

00:21:45

>> see what they're doing wrong or or how

00:21:48

they do it and it works. And and that's

00:21:51

because there'll be a fundamental thing

00:21:53

that everyone does. You might have a

00:21:56

different styles, but there's something

00:21:57

that you do which is we all sort of do.

00:22:01

>> Can you can you elaborate on that? Cuz

00:22:02

like to me, I see someone kicking it.

00:22:04

Everyone looks the same to me. I don't

00:22:05

know what I'm looking for. Like what are

00:22:07

you looking at? What are you

00:22:08

>> I'm just looking at at at whether

00:22:10

they've got a follow through with their

00:22:12

body. um whether um even if they stop

00:22:15

their body's still pointing at the

00:22:18

towards the post

00:22:19

>> or at the middle towards the middle of

00:22:20

the post. Um um and so I can sort of

00:22:24

figure out from there whether they've

00:22:28

you know their legs their legs come

00:22:31

across or they move their body offline

00:22:33

and and so the ball goes where the the

00:22:36

body goes. Um, some I don't bother with

00:22:40

because they whatever they're doing it

00:22:43

works really well and they it's

00:22:45

generally the guys who do the big um

00:22:47

like Thirsten used to do.

00:22:50

um he he'd just curl it in from you know

00:22:53

from the sidelines and everything and

00:22:55

I'm like I'm gonna bother watching

00:22:57

because because if someone's got a style

00:22:59

and it works for them and it's got and

00:23:02

it's goes against everything I'm oh I I

00:23:05

I was practicing then

00:23:08

don't change

00:23:10

>> you know don't change

00:23:10

>> there's a saying in in golf it's not

00:23:12

it's not how it's how many and I suppose

00:23:14

it's the same with goal kicking if it

00:23:16

works who um

00:23:18

>> yeah what what what do you think have

00:23:19

like players that have like really

00:23:21

really unique individual styles like

00:23:23

Johnny Wilkinson springs to mind. Um

00:23:25

Damen McKenzie with the smirk.

00:23:27

>> Oh yeah.

00:23:30

>> Oh, each to their own. You know, if it

00:23:31

if it works for if it works for you,

00:23:34

then keep doing it. But if it doesn't

00:23:36

work, then

00:23:38

>> get rid of the smirk if that's if it's

00:23:40

if he's I mean, he's gigging fine. But

00:23:42

if he doesn't get rid of something, you

00:23:44

know, whatever that is, you know, just

00:23:47

change change something cuz you know,

00:23:50

like my boys kick as well and I was just

00:23:52

speaking to him on the way um Ben who's

00:23:55

in France on the way here and he's

00:23:57

changed his slightly um to the same sort

00:24:00

of way that Ramos kicks for the French

00:24:03

team. He he's had to change a few

00:24:05

things. So, um, you know, you generally

00:24:09

speaking, if you've got a a style and

00:24:12

you don't want to change it too much,

00:24:15

uh,

00:24:17

the problem you have is is if you train

00:24:19

too much,

00:24:21

you'll it's a good way to pick up bad

00:24:23

habits. Mhm.

00:24:24

>> So, for example, uh I was it it took me

00:24:28

two months to get of of training six

00:24:31

days a week, doing the same routine over

00:24:33

and over and over again to get good at

00:24:35

it. After that, I only trained once a

00:24:40

week and that's the the night or two

00:24:44

days before the game and that was it. If

00:24:46

it was too wet

00:24:48

and rainy and windy, I wouldn't

00:24:50

practice. I'd go and kick it in a into a

00:24:53

net

00:24:54

>> and just get timing.

00:24:56

Whereas some guys will go out and kick

00:24:59

hundreds and hundreds of balls and and

00:25:03

you can just pick up pick up bad habits

00:25:05

or get injuries, you know. So,

00:25:08

a little thing that I used to do was if

00:25:11

I did 10, 15, 20 kicks, then I would

00:25:15

also in between just swing my left leg

00:25:20

the other way pretending I'm kicking a

00:25:22

goal just to try and balance balance the

00:25:25

body up, you know, rather than just

00:25:27

going that way all the time. Just

00:25:30

>> because it might be I might end up

00:25:32

pulling something whether it's a hemi or

00:25:34

whatever, you know. Who who have who who

00:25:36

are your favorite all black players of

00:25:38

recent years in that position? So like

00:25:40

Dan,

00:25:42

>> Richie Mo,

00:25:43

>> Dan um um Moa,

00:25:47

>> I really like the way he plays. He's

00:25:50

really good. Um,

00:25:52

and that's yeah, I mean I there's

00:25:55

there's some good tens around, but I

00:25:57

just follow the All Blacks and

00:25:59

>> although they have been quite it's been

00:26:02

quite tough uh last couple of games, you

00:26:05

know.

00:26:06

>> And do do any of the current players

00:26:07

like reach out to you to pick your

00:26:09

brains?

00:26:09

>> N look, there's so many uh there's so

00:26:12

many really good

00:26:14

kickers in the game that I don't they

00:26:17

don't need to see me.

00:26:19

Whoever's who whoever's closest to age

00:26:23

of the like Bod and them, they might

00:26:25

speak to Dan. I don't know.

00:26:27

>> But they've got plenty of people around

00:26:28

them.

00:26:30

>> Half the time I think that most teams

00:26:32

have a kicking coach or

00:26:33

>> as well as a a coach for every other

00:26:36

thing, you know.

00:26:37

>> Yeah, it's different now. E I um It's

00:26:39

crazy. I I've got a I've got a by the

00:26:42

time this this podcast comes out, this

00:26:43

one's well and truly going to be out,

00:26:44

but I caught up with Lorie Mains a

00:26:46

couple of weeks ago.

00:26:46

>> Oh, yeah. Um, so it was him and Earl

00:26:48

Curtain and that was that was basically

00:26:50

it in terms of the coaching team. And

00:26:52

now, yeah, now there's just so many

00:26:54

coaches, isn't there?

00:26:55

>> Yeah. Sometimes you look at it and go,

00:26:56

man, this you don't need that. Surely

00:26:58

you don't need that many. You know, you

00:27:00

can outsource some if you're trying to

00:27:02

save money or you know what, it's like

00:27:04

mate.

00:27:06

There's a bus the bus for the management

00:27:08

and coaches and then there's a bus for

00:27:11

two buses for the players, you know, or

00:27:13

bus for the players. So yeah, it's a bit

00:27:16

Yeah, I mean everyone's doing it. So,

00:27:19

>> but it doesn't mean you have to follow

00:27:21

everyone and do the same thing, but

00:27:24

>> do you do you think you would have

00:27:25

performed better as a player and with in

00:27:27

in the environment today like with all

00:27:29

the information and

00:27:31

>> Oh, I would have I would have because um

00:27:34

because I wouldn't have been working,

00:27:36

>> you know.

00:27:37

>> Yeah,

00:27:37

>> it's it's completely different. So, you

00:27:40

know, we had to we had to find a time in

00:27:43

the day to to train or do extra

00:27:46

training. And I was um at one point I

00:27:49

was a courier driver, you know, so for

00:27:52

New Zealand couriers out at um Carbine

00:27:54

Road in Mount Wellington and I had to

00:27:58

like go for runs around the Pame Basin a

00:28:01

couple of times at at at lunchtime

00:28:04

because that's all the time I had. And

00:28:06

then I just grab some sandwiches and a

00:28:08

drink, jump change my shirt, jump back

00:28:10

in the in the van and

00:28:13

toodle on off again, you know. So,

00:28:15

>> so it's completely different when you're

00:28:18

fully professional and you don't have to

00:28:20

work and, you know, and I sort of I got

00:28:23

I I got the tail end of that in the

00:28:25

rugby union when I was about to retire

00:28:28

and and played a couple of more years,

00:28:30

which was good, but then by that time

00:28:32

the body was starting to slow down.

00:28:35

Yeah, I I love hearing these um stories

00:28:38

about the the amateur era. It's just

00:28:40

like a completely different time. We're

00:28:41

going to get to the um yeah 87 World Cup

00:28:43

soon, but you look at the team, there

00:28:45

was you know Sir John Kerwin who's a

00:28:47

butcher. There were builders on the

00:28:49

team, farmers,

00:28:50

>> you a courier as you just said. Um,

00:28:54

yeah, it's crazy. Just different

00:28:56

different time, eh?

00:28:57

>> Definitely. Definitely. Especially those

00:28:59

farmers. Stay away from them if uh if

00:29:02

you piss them off.

00:29:05

>> What do you mean?

00:29:06

>> They going to they give you one warning

00:29:08

and then they'll punch you.

00:29:11

>> Yeah. So, um 1986, that's when you um

00:29:14

made the All Black Squad for the first

00:29:16

time.

00:29:17

>> What are your recollections of that? Was

00:29:18

it um was it like a TV announcement? Did

00:29:20

you get a call from who was the coach?

00:29:23

Oh, Brian Lore.

00:29:24

>> Brian Lahore. Yeah,

00:29:25

>> Sir Brian Lore. Did you get a phone

00:29:26

call? Is it on the radio?

00:29:28

>> No, it was on the radio, I think.

00:29:29

>> [ __ ] Yeah, we were in fact um

00:29:33

yeah, back in those days it was on the

00:29:35

radio and I remember one time I can't

00:29:36

remember whether it was the one um in '

00:29:38

86, but you we were training with North

00:29:42

Harbor um on the Sunday and we were

00:29:46

running around and then someone said,

00:29:48

"Oh, it's 10:00."

00:29:51

and they'd come out with a radio and

00:29:52

we'd be standing there

00:29:54

waiting to see if we're in or not, you

00:29:56

know, and then if your name came up, we

00:29:59

go, "Yeah." And then the coach would go,

00:30:02

"Yeah, get on the line. It's not going

00:30:04

to work."

00:30:05

>> Back to work.

00:30:07

>> So, were you were you is that like a

00:30:09

core memory for you making the All

00:30:10

Blacks for the first? Were you expected

00:30:11

to make the

00:30:12

>> Yeah. Um,

00:30:15

>> yeah. Yeah, I was I knew I had a shot

00:30:17

because all the Cavaliers had gone, you

00:30:19

know, and they were in trouble. So So

00:30:22

they got a slap on the wrist, which was

00:30:25

um um helped a lot of us back then. So

00:30:29

was it helped like Fitzy was there and

00:30:31

Mike Brewer and myself and and uh oh

00:30:35

just about the whole team, you know. So

00:30:38

that's the opportunity that we all

00:30:39

needed to sort of show what we can do.

00:30:42

Um and we ended up obviously beating the

00:30:44

French which was great. Um it was a bit

00:30:48

daunting but you know because Blano was

00:30:50

there and Laray and um some of their

00:30:55

forwards were scary as hell. Um so it

00:30:58

was it was it was a tough day at the

00:31:00

office and that man for man they were a

00:31:02

lot better than us

00:31:03

>> but we played together better as a team

00:31:06

and and you know we had some standout

00:31:09

performances. Obviously JK was

00:31:12

was there and and yeah, we just we just

00:31:15

did it as a team and and you know, I got

00:31:18

a few kicks in that game and some two

00:31:21

drop kicks and I'd never done a drop

00:31:23

kick before in my life, you know, cuz I

00:31:26

was a runner. I wasn't go Why would I

00:31:28

drop kick? I'm just going to pretend to

00:31:30

drop kick and run, but I'm not going to

00:31:32

drop kick. And then I ended up kicking

00:31:35

two of them. They were both ugly looking

00:31:37

kicks, you know, but they went over, you

00:31:39

know. One was like wasn't even going on.

00:31:42

I was floating around. It just drops

00:31:43

over. I'm going, "Oh, mate, I'll take

00:31:45

that." And so, mate, funny funnily

00:31:48

enough, I never did another drop kick in

00:31:50

my life cuz two from two, you know,

00:31:52

that's a 100% record.

00:31:55

I'm not going to spoil that, mate.

00:31:57

>> Don't want to ruin your legacy. Did

00:31:59

What? Did the um Did the team c Who was

00:32:01

the team captain? Was that um Andy

00:32:02

Dalton? No,

00:32:04

>> he was with the World Cup. He was the

00:32:06

offfield,

00:32:07

>> right,

00:32:07

>> captain and and and David Kirk in the

00:32:09

World Cup.

00:32:10

>> So why um what did the captain ask you

00:32:13

to do the drop kicks or?

00:32:15

>> No, no, like an instinct thing.

00:32:16

>> Just an instinct thing. I think I just

00:32:18

did it.

00:32:19

>> And is that is that the French game?

00:32:20

There's this this moment in um that's

00:32:22

like in New Zealand sporting folklore,

00:32:25

you know, Buck Shelfford um having his

00:32:27

um like scrotum ripped open.

00:32:29

>> Oh yeah, that was another French tour

00:32:31

later on. Yeah, that you were there.

00:32:33

>> Yeah, I was. Yeah, I got I got smacked

00:32:36

around as well. Yeah.

00:32:37

>> Yeah. What's the What's the story with

00:32:39

Buck's testicle?

00:32:40

>> Oh, you know, I was hanging out. It was

00:32:42

not a pretty sight, I can tell you.

00:32:45

>> So, it got rucked open.

00:32:47

>> He got rucked open and then he just he

00:32:50

just kept playing cuz he's cuz he's a

00:32:53

tough either tough or stupid. And I'm

00:32:55

going to say tough because if I say

00:32:57

stupid, he'll give me a slap. In fact,

00:33:01

probably two years ago when I was co

00:33:02

three or three or four years ago when I

00:33:04

was coaching Northshore Prims just off

00:33:07

to the side there and and he came in

00:33:10

after I we' won a final or something and

00:33:12

I I said something smart to him and he

00:33:14

whacked me around the ears freaking real

00:33:17

hard, you know, like ears ringing. I'm

00:33:18

going and everyone in there went

00:33:22

and they sort of what the hell just

00:33:24

happened then they cracked up laughing

00:33:25

and I'm like ah I'm too old for you to

00:33:28

do that [ __ ] anymore.

00:33:32

He goes, "No, you're not. You're just a

00:33:33

cheeky little prick and you you'll get

00:33:35

another one if you're not careful." I

00:33:37

went, "Oh, yeah. Sorry about that.

00:33:38

[ __ ] and all the players are laughing

00:33:40

at me and all that." So, yeah,

00:33:42

>> some things never change.

00:33:44

>> So, the the So, the testicle thing, was

00:33:46

it a big thing at the time? Like a Oh,

00:33:48

yeah. When the game finishes, is

00:33:49

everyone in the team like outraged by it

00:33:51

or is it like like

00:33:52

>> We were just like we just went, "What

00:33:54

the hell just happened?" Um they we sort

00:33:58

of all all said they might they're on

00:34:01

something these fers the forwards

00:34:02

especially because they were crazy like

00:34:05

going down the tunnel you know you could

00:34:08

see their eyes freaking bulging out some

00:34:10

of couple of them forwards were

00:34:12

headbutting a concrete wall you know a

00:34:14

bit of blood scing we going holy what

00:34:17

the hell's going on here and so yeah I

00:34:20

got concussed I think a couple of times

00:34:22

or once and then just I carried on

00:34:24

saying

00:34:25

>> no HIA back then.

00:34:27

>> No HIA back then. And yeah, then

00:34:30

obviously when Shelfford was in the

00:34:32

showers, yeah, it was like you throw up

00:34:36

or something. It was not a good sight.

00:34:39

But but I um

00:34:43

we had a uh we the next morning we

00:34:46

actually had a little session and

00:34:47

Shelfford comes down and he's got this

00:34:49

big nappy thing on, you know, and I

00:34:53

and so I thought to myself, "Oh, this is

00:34:56

a great time just to give it to him and

00:34:58

have so yeah, I got smart to him and and

00:35:00

and

00:35:02

you know, took the piss out of him and

00:35:03

and he couldn't chase me cuz he couldn't

00:35:07

he could just barely walk.

00:35:10

>> I hope for your sake he's he's too old

00:35:12

now to know what a podcast is cuz if he

00:35:14

hears this, you're going to get another

00:35:15

smack around the ear.

00:35:16

>> Get another smack here. He gave me a

00:35:18

lift home last week actually when we

00:35:20

watched North Harbor.

00:35:21

>> So,

00:35:22

>> how is he? He's He's quite like I asked

00:35:24

him to go on the podcast maybe about a

00:35:25

year ago and he said he he just not no

00:35:27

interest in it. He's just all about his

00:35:28

grandkids now.

00:35:29

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, that'll be right.

00:35:31

>> Yeah. No, he's not that interested in in

00:35:34

doing a lot of this stuff. So,

00:35:37

>> they're great stories to share, though.

00:35:38

Like, it's um it's part of New Zealand

00:35:40

history. So, it's an honor to have you

00:35:42

here today. It's really cool.

00:35:43

>> Yeah, he's I mean, obviously, we used to

00:35:46

call him uh we used to we used to call

00:35:48

him God, you know, basically um down the

00:35:52

rugby club when he walked in or wherever

00:35:55

he walked in, we just North Harbor

00:35:57

Rugby, we just drop to our knees and go,

00:36:00

"Oh, buck shelf. God, we're not worthy."

00:36:03

And he'd whack us all as we were. Then

00:36:05

we'd stand up. Then we stand. God, just

00:36:08

hit me. Yeah. You know

00:36:09

>> why? Why was it just like a mana or a

00:36:12

presence

00:36:12

>> mana? Cuz he was just scary. Scary and

00:36:16

good and tough and his back was like he

00:36:19

was whipped, you know. Um and yeah, when

00:36:23

he took his shirt off in the showers and

00:36:24

all that, he did and he didn't care. And

00:36:26

he he he used to cheat. He said, "Yeah,

00:36:29

I don't care. What's a ruck? It's not

00:36:32

that bad." And we're going, "You sure?"

00:36:34

Cuz that looks sore, you know?

00:36:36

>> Oh, spring marks all over.

00:36:37

>> Spring marks all over his back. Yeah.

00:36:39

And so, so, yeah. So, you sort of, yeah,

00:36:43

we're we're scared of him.

00:36:45

>> Yeah. I I appreciate you telling these

00:36:47

stories. Like there's there's a lot lot

00:36:48

of stories out there about, you know,

00:36:50

say Colin Me for example. I feel like

00:36:52

Buck Shelfford probably Yeah. deserves

00:36:54

the same sort of kudos. The stories like

00:36:56

sort of what you're you're telling

00:36:57

today.

00:36:58

>> Um, your Kiwi folk hero. What were the

00:37:01

perks? You mentioned before you were um

00:37:03

a courier at at the time. So what were

00:37:05

the perks of being an all black in in

00:37:07

the amateur era? What did you get? Did

00:37:09

you get like um per DMs?

00:37:10

>> Yeah, we got per DMs. I think it was

00:37:12

like maybe I think it was like 20

00:37:16

something dollars a day or something.

00:37:18

>> So it's [ __ ] money even at the time.

00:37:20

>> Yeah. And obvious and in in those days

00:37:22

we had a we had a like you had a lot of

00:37:24

different groups of people and one was

00:37:27

the card school. So we used to we used

00:37:31

to most evenings when we were on tour um

00:37:34

or in a hotel we would play poker for

00:37:39

you know like maximum of a dollar

00:37:42

um blind and all that sort of stuff. So

00:37:45

yeah. So so that didn't last long if you

00:37:49

lost.

00:37:50

And then um yeah, you mentioned before

00:37:52

>> you mentioned before like being one of

00:37:54

the the dirty dirties and how you'd have

00:37:56

to sell tickets for and what was that

00:37:58

for? Like a team like a fund like a

00:37:59

pool.

00:38:00

>> Yeah, just team fund. Oh yeah,

00:38:01

>> just a team fund. Yeah.

00:38:02

>> In case we wanted to have some extra

00:38:04

beers and all that.

00:38:05

>> I mean on one tour we had um uh the

00:38:08

breweries

00:38:10

um when we went on went to go to

00:38:13

England, we had we had a Paladus Stiny

00:38:16

Classics come with us. We we had in the

00:38:22

hotels we'd have like a they'd take all

00:38:24

the alcohol and and drinks out of the

00:38:26

fridges and put in some stein l

00:38:30

you know cuz some some of these uh some

00:38:33

of those farmers we train in the morning

00:38:36

they'd have a beer after training like

00:38:38

at lunch just just one but they just

00:38:42

we're like mate it's only it's only

00:38:45

12:00

00:38:49

I um I asked Lori Mains. I said, "Who

00:38:52

like who who drunk more? Uh the All

00:38:53

Blacks in the 70s when you were playing

00:38:55

or the All Blacks in the ' 90s when you

00:38:56

were coaching?" And he he didn't even

00:38:57

hesitate. He said, "The '9s all the

00:38:59

way."

00:39:00

>> Yeah.

00:39:00

>> Yeah. It was a real drinking culture at

00:39:02

the time. E

00:39:03

>> It was a drinking culture. And And you

00:39:05

know, you'd have your

00:39:07

um even in the 80s when we were there,

00:39:09

like you'd have your uh your court

00:39:11

sessions straight after after games. Um,

00:39:14

and you know, you you get plastered

00:39:17

basically.

00:39:18

>> Yeah. What happens at a court session?

00:39:20

>> I know. You just have a judge,

00:39:22

couple of sidekicks, and then you just

00:39:25

play stupid games. Yeah. So, it's uh

00:39:30

>> So, you have you have to you you're made

00:39:32

to drink for like mistakes you made in

00:39:34

the game or

00:39:34

>> Oh, yeah. You Well, I mean, it's it's to

00:39:37

get together and have a sing a bit of a

00:39:38

sing song, too. You know, we break it up

00:39:40

with a a song or or two. Um, and then

00:39:43

we'd we'd have like any fines. Does did

00:39:46

anyone do something stupid? Um, and it

00:39:48

might it won't be a free-for-all to

00:39:50

start with, but the judges in them will

00:39:52

go, "Right, you guys who didn't score a

00:39:54

trial, who scored a try, well, you can

00:39:57

drink for being a smartass tri, you

00:40:00

know, it's it's it's stupid shit." Well,

00:40:03

we'll do a we'll do a um a speed round,

00:40:06

>> you know, to see

00:40:07

>> to see how quickly we can we can all

00:40:10

drink our bottle a bottle or a glass

00:40:13

>> and then at the end we'll do another

00:40:15

one, see if we can beat it.

00:40:17

>> Things like that. You know, there's

00:40:18

plenty of stupid games

00:40:20

that you come up with and and and you

00:40:22

know, if you got guys who have been at

00:40:24

uh down in Otago, then those fellas,

00:40:28

>> they know every single every single

00:40:30

drink

00:40:31

>> drinking game you can imagine.

00:40:33

>> Yeah. All sorts of

00:40:34

>> And they can drink more than anyone else

00:40:36

generally.

00:40:37

>> Yeah.

00:40:38

>> So,

00:40:38

>> yeah. And this is like preones, preocial

00:40:41

media, pre any of that stuff. Yeah.

00:40:43

>> What a golden time. Who were the who are

00:40:45

your best and worst roommates? Who did

00:40:47

who who were you roommed with? Like Foxy

00:40:49

or

00:40:51

>> normally a half back? A halfback?

00:40:53

>> Yeah. So, um

00:40:55

>> who was that? Kirk.

00:40:57

>> Oh, no. No, no, cuz I wasn't. That would

00:41:01

have been him and Foxy probably.

00:41:03

>> Yeah.

00:41:05

Graeme Bishop I would be with sometimes.

00:41:08

Um

00:41:10

>> but it would chop and change. But you

00:41:11

like if I'm if I'm in the reserves then

00:41:13

you'll be with a reserve back. If I'm

00:41:15

with a with a dirty duties and you'll

00:41:18

probably be in the dirty duties because

00:41:19

you don't want to be coming home

00:41:22

>> the night before a game and someone's

00:41:24

either playing or on the bench.

00:41:26

>> So you all all your dirty duties are

00:41:29

rooming together

00:41:31

>> basically.

00:41:33

Um yeah. So um the worst one

00:41:37

the worst ones are always the fords and

00:41:39

you're never put with a Ford.

00:41:42

Thank god. Why are they the worst?

00:41:45

>> Well, just cuz they are. They they they

00:41:48

get pushy and they [ __ ] you know,

00:41:51

>> they think they're the boss cuz they're

00:41:53

a lot bigger.

00:41:54

>> And generally they are because

00:41:56

because they are.

00:41:58

>> And and um the late Brian La Hoya's

00:42:00

coach, what was he like? Was he

00:42:01

intimidating? Yeah, they're all Yeah, he

00:42:04

was not so When you get to know him,

00:42:07

he's not he's a he's an awesome guy, you

00:42:09

know. Um and and a very good coach, but

00:42:12

he um

00:42:15

he was just like down to earth, quietly

00:42:18

spoken.

00:42:19

>> But then you get a Griswali, you know,

00:42:21

who was a good coach, but he was scary

00:42:24

and um he loved the whiskey, you know.

00:42:29

Um, Colum Me, we had I had Colin Me once

00:42:33

um and he was

00:42:36

um it was in our under in a Colts trial

00:42:38

team

00:42:40

and I can't tell you what he said to us

00:42:42

when we first walked in, but we were

00:42:43

scared that he when he walked in and

00:42:45

when he said what he said, we were like,

00:42:48

"Oh shit." You know, and it was based on

00:42:52

I I'll tell you as much as I can, but I

00:42:54

can't say the word.

00:42:55

>> You You can, but it's a podcast. You can

00:42:57

if you want.

00:42:58

>> Oh, no. I can't say this one.

00:43:00

>> So it starts with C anyway

00:43:03

>> and not

00:43:04

>> okay and and so he goes a

00:43:08

if I uh if I look at you and I say oi

00:43:12

siti

00:43:14

um it's not because I hate you. It's

00:43:17

because I can't remember your [ __ ]

00:43:19

name. Okay. And we're all [ __ ]

00:43:25

Yeah. So yeah. And and what about what

00:43:29

about Grant Fox? Yeah, we sort of

00:43:30

established earlier that your your

00:43:31

career in the All Blacks was sort of um

00:43:33

in his in his shadow. What was it? He's

00:43:36

he's super competitive. Like he when I

00:43:38

had him on the podcast like he told

00:43:39

stories about the first time Ryan beat

00:43:41

him in golf and they didn't talk for

00:43:43

like two or three days afterwards. Um so

00:43:46

was he like supportive and nurturing or

00:43:49

did he see you as like a threat or an

00:43:50

enemy?

00:43:51

>> No, no, no. We got on we got on fine,

00:43:52

you know. Um um I

00:43:55

>> Yeah. No, we I got we got them fine. Um

00:43:58

I mean it's like uh you have you have

00:44:02

your playing team and then you have your

00:44:04

forwards and your backs or sorry you

00:44:06

have your squad then you have your

00:44:07

forward your backs then you have your um

00:44:11

your clicks not click your your mates

00:44:14

you hang around with all the time. So in

00:44:16

in in most of these teams you have a

00:44:18

your different groups of guys you know.

00:44:21

So we had um we had the Jeffers who were

00:44:26

the Oaklanders.

00:44:28

Then we had the Brown brothers and the

00:44:33

the Brown brothers who played for

00:44:34

Oakland were in the Brown brothers

00:44:36

group, not the Jeffers group. And then

00:44:38

you had your uh the farmers.

00:44:42

Then you had the real quiet guys who

00:44:44

didn't mix and mingle too much. Um, so

00:44:48

you had these different and then you had

00:44:50

the card school who were in some in in

00:44:53

in multiple groups, you know, and those

00:44:56

are the those are sort of the guys cuz I

00:44:58

mean the the the brown boys used to go

00:45:01

and I don't know go to do stupid [ __ ]

00:45:05

and the other fells would be more

00:45:09

sensible or

00:45:10

>> what sort of stupid [ __ ] Oh man, we

00:45:11

just we could be bored. So I remember in

00:45:13

Cardiff one year we were bored. So we

00:45:17

decided to go and have a Oh, and um John

00:45:20

Gallagher, he was a token Brown brother.

00:45:23

So um we used to we went on a um a

00:45:27

hamburger eating crawl to see who could

00:45:29

eat the most hamburgers around Cardiff.

00:45:32

Well,

00:45:35

so we go into a one place, have a a

00:45:38

burger, go to the next place,

00:45:39

McDonald's, and whatever. And yeah, and

00:45:42

see who won. Well, we finished that and

00:45:44

we're all going, "Oh,

00:45:47

whose idea was it? That was so stupid,

00:45:49

you know."

00:45:51

>> Um, yeah. So, yeah, we just Yeah, some

00:45:56

of the things you just you got to figure

00:45:58

out what what to do in your downtime,

00:46:00

you know. M so

00:46:02

>> just killing time.

00:46:03

>> Just killing time.

00:46:04

>> So um the 1987 Rugby World Cup, you you

00:46:07

were part of that squad. You didn't get

00:46:08

to play though.

00:46:09

>> No, didn't get to play. Um which was

00:46:11

disappointing. Um I thought I might get

00:46:13

one um game against one of the smaller

00:46:17

teams

00:46:17

>> like an Italy or something.

00:46:18

>> Yeah, like in Italy or something, but

00:46:20

not but that was fine. Um

00:46:24

we were there. Yeah, I didn't I I wanted

00:46:27

the a game, but I also

00:46:31

wanted to be part of the team um and and

00:46:34

a winning side, a winning team. So, I I

00:46:36

I did whatever I could off the field to

00:46:40

make sure that like like the everyone

00:46:42

else um to make sure that that

00:46:46

they were in the best position to win

00:46:49

basically. So,

00:46:50

>> so on reflection like do you do you feel

00:46:52

like a World Cup winner?

00:46:54

>> Um, yep. I was part of it. Y I I

00:46:57

definitely feel like a World Cup winner.

00:46:59

Yeah, definitely.

00:47:00

>> Did you Cuz that was the I mean, we all

00:47:02

know um what a big deal the World Cup is

00:47:04

now and how hard it is to win one of

00:47:05

those things. Um this was the first one.

00:47:08

What? Yeah. What was the hype like

00:47:09

beforehand? I I remember it vaguely, but

00:47:11

I was like 13 14 at the time and it just

00:47:13

sort of came up out of nowhere and it's

00:47:14

like, "Oh [ __ ] this is the rookie."

00:47:16

>> Yeah, the hype was was was pretty big.

00:47:18

Um um we I remember we used to um Brian

00:47:22

Lort he took he took us around the

00:47:25

smaller provinces for trainings and all

00:47:28

that sort of stuff to get get everybody

00:47:32

feeling involved in the in the buildup

00:47:35

to it. So So that was great. Um we were

00:47:38

down the west coast uh sorry the east

00:47:41

coast down by uh

00:47:43

over over in the wrapper bush. So,

00:47:48

>> oh, is that where um were you billeted?

00:47:51

>> Yeah. Yeah.

00:47:52

>> It's a crazy concept, eh?

00:47:54

>> Oh, yeah. We were billeted and [ __ ]

00:47:56

was it.

00:47:56

>> So, you like all the All Blacks at the

00:47:58

time. Like, it's just hard to imagine

00:48:00

like today like Bone and Barrett staying

00:48:02

at some random's house and

00:48:04

>> Yeah.

00:48:04

>> in Maston, you know.

00:48:05

>> Yeah. No, it was great. You know, we

00:48:08

really enjoyed it. You know, it's like

00:48:10

sometimes you get bit sick of the hotel

00:48:12

food anyway.

00:48:13

But it was just nice to meet different

00:48:15

people around the place and it was yeah

00:48:17

I mean it doesn't obviously when you

00:48:21

when you're growing up and going to

00:48:22

school and going on school trips you're

00:48:24

always getting billeted anyway. So and

00:48:26

even if you um with a club team

00:48:29

sometimes you got billeted

00:48:31

um on a on a on a weekend with club

00:48:33

trips. Yeah.

00:48:35

>> So, you know, you you got used to it and

00:48:38

they felt part of part of the whole

00:48:41

World Cup buildup, you know. So,

00:48:43

>> so were you like staying in some You

00:48:45

like a spare room in someone's house or

00:48:47

someone's sofa or

00:48:48

>> No, no, we're in a I was in a bedroom,

00:48:51

but it was on the coast,

00:48:54

but I can't remember where where in the

00:48:57

it was. But, you know,

00:48:58

>> it's quite quite funny because Well,

00:49:00

you're the Old Black, so I wouldn't

00:49:03

expect any of you guys to remember, but

00:49:04

for the like the family that you stayed

00:49:06

at, for them it's probably like a core

00:49:07

memory for life like

00:49:08

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, I

00:49:10

mean, they would they would definitely

00:49:12

be going, man, that was we had an all

00:49:14

black stage this year, but um

00:49:17

>> yeah, and I wish I could remember it,

00:49:19

but I just few too many knocks in rugby,

00:49:22

I suppose. I don't know.

00:49:24

>> Yeah. How how is your um you mentioned

00:49:25

before the concussion against the French

00:49:27

game? Did you Yeah. Are you okay now?

00:49:29

There's a lot of lot of chat about

00:49:30

concussion and

00:49:32

>> the ongoing effects of

00:49:34

>> Fortunately, I'm I'm I'm fine at the

00:49:35

moment.

00:49:36

>> Yeah.

00:49:36

>> Um

00:49:38

>> Yeah. I I mean I had the I had the

00:49:40

stroke and and last year and I think

00:49:42

I've I just I probably can't remember

00:49:46

things quite as well but I was wasn't

00:49:49

that great before the stroke. So you

00:49:52

know

00:49:54

>> so I'm not quite sure whether it was

00:49:56

I'm I'm 52 and I've never had a head

00:49:58

knock in my life but I've I have trouble

00:50:00

remembering things as well. So a lot of

00:50:02

that Yeah. A lot of it comes down to

00:50:03

age. What would you say your like best

00:50:05

and worst experiences from your four

00:50:08

years as an All Black?

00:50:12

>> Best and worst. The best would

00:50:14

definitely be the the very first test

00:50:16

against the French down in Christ Church

00:50:19

without a doubt. You know, you'll always

00:50:21

remember your first one and especially

00:50:23

against, you know, one of my heroes was

00:50:25

>> Serge Blanco. And in 1981, I was

00:50:30

um I'd left I'd left uh school. Um I was

00:50:36

playing for Northshore Rugby and I got

00:50:37

an opportunity. Um one of the players

00:50:40

had married a French girl and he came to

00:50:43

training one day and said, "I need a 10

00:50:45

and a seven to come to a little French

00:50:48

rugby club um to play for a season." And

00:50:52

I'm like, "Uh, is it free?" because I

00:50:55

got no money. And he goes, "Yeah, yeah,

00:50:58

they'll pay for your F here and they'll

00:50:59

give you a a job." So I ended up going

00:51:02

over there, but it was a ski resort in

00:51:04

the Pyrenees Mountains

00:51:05

>> and it was beautiful. And and Serge

00:51:08

Blanco used to go there, you know. So

00:51:11

I'd met Serge Blanco in a cafe having a

00:51:14

few drinks cuz all of the guys I knew um

00:51:17

in the rugby team knew him because he

00:51:20

was, you know, in the winter he'd come

00:51:22

down there a fair bit.

00:51:24

Um, so I got to meet him there and and

00:51:26

and and you know, sort of like a like

00:51:30

meeting Buck Shelford again, you know,

00:51:32

going

00:51:34

you I got a po per of you in my in my

00:51:38

bedroom back in New Zealand, you know,

00:51:40

and so then to be playing my first game

00:51:43

in the All Blacks when he's getting

00:51:45

towards the end of his career um was was

00:51:50

amazing, you know, it was really good.

00:51:53

very very uh excited to do that

00:51:56

>> and also a little scared because you

00:51:58

know my hero I've watched him and he's

00:52:00

scored tries from behind his own post

00:52:03

you know and scored tries and uh and

00:52:07

I've got a I've got a you know

00:52:09

potentially I could be the last line of

00:52:11

defense and he's in front of me. I'm

00:52:13

like then I gave myself a slap and said

00:52:16

mate don't think negative like that

00:52:18

you're going to beat these fellas in

00:52:19

here. So we ended up winning.

00:52:21

>> So yeah. Yeah. What about um worst

00:52:23

memories?

00:52:26

>> Worst memories? Just the injuries I've

00:52:29

I've of I've I've had over the years. Um

00:52:32

had a couple of uh well, they're not

00:52:35

serious, but they they hold you back a

00:52:37

little bit, you know, like just little

00:52:40

um cartilage trims

00:52:43

and those sorts of things in your knees.

00:52:45

Um missing my the birth of a couple of

00:52:48

the kids as well. In fact, Foxy and I

00:52:52

were on going on a tour when

00:52:56

um his wife was pregnant and and mine

00:53:00

was pregnant and we both stayed back and

00:53:03

we missed going to Canada. We never been

00:53:06

to Canada. Come on, babe. Hurry up. Can

00:53:08

you have this baby? Anyway, we So, we

00:53:12

missed out on that, but uh um we had to

00:53:15

leave anyway because the babies didn't

00:53:18

come

00:53:19

>> until we left. So, but but yeah, missing

00:53:21

missing some of the best of the kids is

00:53:24

is is is

00:53:27

probably one of them.

00:53:29

>> That's that's really powerful.

00:53:31

>> Yeah,

00:53:34

>> not that I'm mate. Well,

00:53:37

I I have did watch one of them and I

00:53:40

nearly [ __ ] eggs were going like

00:53:46

I'm going, "Oh [ __ ] take a seat." you

00:53:49

know.

00:53:50

>> No, but you you can't be beating

00:53:51

yourself too much about that because it

00:53:52

was just how it was at the time. E like

00:53:54

it was

00:53:54

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's just the way it was

00:53:56

back in those days. So,

00:53:58

>> so yeah.

00:53:59

>> I mean, this is this is a time where

00:54:00

Yeah. Yeah. people Yeah. Michael Jones

00:54:04

I got another worst one. Yeah. was was

00:54:07

actually playing um we played a team

00:54:10

called Tukerman in the New Zealand Moldi

00:54:12

team in Argentina and they they're at

00:54:15

the bottom of the Andes Mountains and

00:54:18

they are renowned for fighting. And so

00:54:22

when we got there, they said, "Oh, this

00:54:24

team's just come back from a two-year

00:54:26

ban."

00:54:28

We went, "What for?" They said,

00:54:31

"Fighting." And we went, "Really?" Yes.

00:54:35

Anyway, we went out there, they kicked

00:54:38

off and all 15 of them came running in

00:54:42

and started a fight. Now, we had we had

00:54:45

uh Buck Shelfford, Hickory, um we had

00:54:48

the Frank Shelford, we had um the Brook

00:54:52

brothers, you know, we had Steve McDall,

00:54:55

we had a Borovich,

00:54:58

and they wanted to start a fight.

00:55:01

Well, we didn't want to, but we had no

00:55:04

choice.

00:55:05

And there was a fight for the whole

00:55:08

game. Like that. It was ridiculous.

00:55:10

There's one um one time when when you

00:55:15

sort of like a comedy show where I'm

00:55:16

chasing, you're chasing someone and they

00:55:18

stop, you stop. Come on. Come on. And

00:55:20

then they take off when you go to have a

00:55:22

go. And then it was just like it was

00:55:24

terrible. And then the the game was

00:55:26

called off five minutes before full

00:55:29

time.

00:55:30

because the crowd were getting wild and

00:55:32

and started throwing [ __ ] at us. So we

00:55:34

had to stand in the middle of the field

00:55:37

until they ran out of ammunition.

00:55:40

Then we had to walk to the sideline

00:55:42

together in a line and there was there

00:55:46

was a cage but the cage only went 10 m

00:55:50

and the sorry 5 m and the gap to get

00:55:54

under there was 10 m. So we had 5 meters

00:55:57

of walking through like a corridor of

00:55:59

angry locals who were hitting us with

00:56:02

umbrellas and all sorts of [ __ ] So that

00:56:04

was the worst the worst scariest um

00:56:08

experience we've had. We were under the

00:56:11

under the grand stand and we were

00:56:13

looking for [ __ ] like weapons. Like

00:56:16

there was some guys on barbecues. We

00:56:18

were taking their their some forks or

00:56:21

freaking ripping some bits of wood off

00:56:23

the freaking side of whatever. I don't

00:56:25

know. And and just so we had something

00:56:27

cuz we we had to walk another 30 m out

00:56:30

the back to the changing rooms and we're

00:56:33

thinking, man, we're going to die, you

00:56:35

know, like we are seriously going to

00:56:37

die. And the police had got around the

00:56:40

back and and blocked it all off. So, we

00:56:43

had to grab our bags and jump straight

00:56:45

in the in the bus and go back to the

00:56:48

hotel, which was

00:56:51

we jumped in the bus and we were going,

00:56:53

"Thank God the cops were in there

00:56:55

saying, "Boys, just put your heads down.

00:56:57

Don't look." And and we'll get back to

00:57:00

the hotel. You don't tell a bus full of

00:57:02

moldies. Don't look out the window. Must

00:57:05

we're out the window.

00:57:08

[ __ ] you, too. and they're banging on

00:57:10

the side of the bus and we're saying

00:57:13

driver, hurry up,

00:57:15

run them over if they're in the way, you

00:57:17

know, like so and then we were told not

00:57:20

to go out that night

00:57:21

>> because you might not be found. So So no

00:57:24

one went out. No one.

00:57:26

>> Unbelievable. Was the team banned again

00:57:28

after that?

00:57:29

>> Um I don't know. We don't care. We hope

00:57:30

so. Um they Yeah. I mean I I remember

00:57:34

someone sent me a little clip of it. So

00:57:36

I I went online to have a look and I saw

00:57:38

some of it and I was like man and then I

00:57:40

above it it had like a some other team

00:57:43

might have been South Africa or

00:57:44

something. So I pushed that and they're

00:57:47

fighting too. I'm like geez. So it

00:57:50

wasn't just us. They just they are just

00:57:53

crazy. So that was scary that

00:57:55

>> Oh. So there's some video footage that

00:57:56

exists. I might have to try and hunt

00:57:58

that out.

00:57:58

>> Yeah. Yeah.

00:57:59

>> So then um in uh Oh yeah, one more

00:58:02

question before we move on to your your

00:58:03

league stuff which is like the second

00:58:04

part of the Frenobotica story. So you

00:58:06

did you he was a teammate of yours, but

00:58:08

did you ever play against the Iceman,

00:58:10

Michael Jones?

00:58:11

>> What was he like to play against?

00:58:12

>> Um I think I might have played against

00:58:14

him. Yeah, I did. When North Harbor in a

00:58:16

in a Shield challenge? Um he was and I

00:58:20

couldn't get away from him. Like I could

00:58:22

I just had to shovel the ball on and get

00:58:26

out of the way cuz I could see him come

00:58:29

flying at me. And um he sort of knew

00:58:32

where to where to go, where I would was

00:58:36

potentially going to try and go. And

00:58:38

because he was so quick as well, he was

00:58:40

he was just on top of you. So you didn't

00:58:42

have a choice. You only had one choice,

00:58:44

and that's either pass it or I'm going

00:58:46

to I'm going to get you. And which I

00:58:49

didn't chance my arm against him.

00:58:51

>> What made him so good?

00:58:52

>> I don't know. It just sometimes you just

00:58:54

got you're you are so talented and you

00:58:57

have this X factor and you can't quite

00:59:00

put your finger on it, but he's he's

00:59:03

he's full of it, you know. He's got a X

00:59:06

factor oozing out of him. And

00:59:09

um obviously he's he was fit, he had

00:59:12

size, he was an athlete, a real athlete.

00:59:15

Um and yeah, and just toughest opponent

00:59:20

to

00:59:23

to play against like Yeah. toughest

00:59:26

opponent to play against you

00:59:27

>> and so nice and humble off the field as

00:59:29

well.

00:59:29

>> I know. So quiet.

00:59:31

>> It's like it's like an Inger as well,

00:59:33

you know? They're all They're all And

00:59:34

they're all so quiet and humble and

00:59:37

really nice and then you get him on the

00:59:39

field,

00:59:42

>> I've had Kev Mama on the podcast. Same

00:59:45

sort of thing.

00:59:46

>> Same sort of thing. like very quiet,

00:59:48

humble, everyone's favorite player, but

00:59:50

a complete savage on the field.

00:59:52

>> Yeah, you have sort of a you have your

00:59:55

your alter ego, you know,

00:59:56

>> and

00:59:58

I suppose you have well once you go on

01:00:00

into battle, then you have to really.

01:00:02

>> So,

01:00:03

>> yeah. So, 1990 um was the year you

01:00:06

switched to league after four years and

01:00:08

seven tests as an all black. Was was

01:00:10

that a tough decision? Was it was it

01:00:12

based around money or was it frustration

01:00:14

of not getting enough game time? What

01:00:16

was it?

01:00:17

>> Um, it was based around money really and

01:00:20

and the fact that I I I couldn't sit

01:00:24

again having that negative attitude

01:00:26

towards kicking. I couldn't see myself

01:00:28

beating Foxy. So, I didn't want to I'd

01:00:31

had enough of sitting on the bench. I

01:00:33

had enough of of the, you know, it used

01:00:36

to cost me I got 20 I got 27 or 20

01:00:40

something dollars um a a week for

01:00:44

freaking incidentals um with the All

01:00:46

Blacks cost me 100 bucks to pay for my

01:00:49

the career driver,

01:00:52

>> a relief driver.

01:00:53

>> A relief driver, you know. I'm like,

01:00:54

mate, this is

01:00:56

>> Yeah. So I ended I yeah I basically I I

01:01:00

said well it's time for me to find

01:01:03

something else

01:01:04

>> and it was you know and it was random.

01:01:06

It was I remember I was um we just

01:01:09

finished the all black tour of of the UK

01:01:12

and we were stuck in London for a couple

01:01:15

two or three days and I couldn't be

01:01:17

bothered having a look around. Well, I

01:01:19

was going to look around London. Then I

01:01:21

just got a random phone call from the

01:01:23

director of Wagan Rugby League, you

01:01:25

know, said, "Mate, do you want to come

01:01:26

and have a look at playing for us?"

01:01:30

Um, and I said, "Oh, mate." Well, first

01:01:34

of all, he said, "Do you know much about

01:01:35

Wigan?" I said, "Oh, no. I think you're

01:01:37

red and white or something. I think I

01:01:39

might have seen you on on TV playing

01:01:42

Hulk Hulk or something." And uh he said,

01:01:46

"Do you want to come up?" I said, "Oh,

01:01:49

mate." Cuz what I thought, "Oh, he wants

01:01:52

me to go up and have a look up there.

01:01:54

He's going to take me out to a nice

01:01:55

restaurant, champagne,

01:01:58

and then ask me if I want to sign, and

01:02:00

I'll say no." But I'll take the trip up

01:02:02

there. I haven't been up there. I'll

01:02:03

have some champagne, some nice food, and

01:02:05

then say no. How hard can that be? And I

01:02:08

got nothing else to do. So, I jumped in

01:02:10

a train, went up there. Got there, it

01:02:12

was it was freezing cold. There was like

01:02:15

a misty rain which you you could see

01:02:18

about 20 feet in front of you and I um I

01:02:22

was looking at it going man what a

01:02:24

miserable hole. You can't even see the

01:02:26

place. Anyway, he didn't even pick me up

01:02:28

but he he said just jump in a cab. I'll

01:02:31

sort out when you get here. Give him the

01:02:33

the address. So I had the address. I

01:02:35

gave it to him and um he said you sure

01:02:39

is that where you want to go? I said

01:02:41

yeah. Oh okay. Anyway, 10 minutes later,

01:02:44

we pull up outside this restaurant. Big

01:02:46

red and white sign.

01:02:49

Kentucky Fried Chicken. I went

01:02:53

Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cheap

01:02:56

bastard.

01:02:58

Anyway,

01:02:59

I went in there. Well, his his work was

01:03:01

beside it, but we we went into KFC and

01:03:05

um we sat down there and uh he must have

01:03:08

got some inside information that KFC was

01:03:10

my favorite food. Um cuz I walked out of

01:03:14

there having signed the contract for

01:03:15

three years scratching my head going,

01:03:17

"Man, what just happened?"

01:03:20

>> How How much was it?

01:03:22

>> How much was it?

01:03:22

>> Yeah. No, not not the KFC, the the

01:03:25

contract.

01:03:25

>> Oh, it was it in my eyes, I thought it

01:03:28

was really good cuz I hadn't seen that

01:03:29

much money before in in one go. And um

01:03:33

unfortunately

01:03:35

over time, I figured out that that

01:03:37

wasn't that much compared to everyone

01:03:38

else. I mean, damn, I just I just got I

01:03:42

just got I just got hammered for uh um

01:03:45

for 3 years. I got to wait three years

01:03:47

now. So,

01:03:48

>> um so it was not as much as the rest of

01:03:51

them, that's for sure. I I mean the

01:03:53

second contract was a lot better. A lot

01:03:55

better. But

01:03:56

>> um but I didn't mind because

01:03:59

I it was more than I I'd got before. So

01:04:02

So I was happy. Um yeah.

01:04:04

>> And was it a controversial thing at the

01:04:06

time? Like I feel like it's fairly

01:04:08

common now for people to switch codes

01:04:10

like whether it's

01:04:11

>> Benji Marshall or RTS or whoever. But at

01:04:14

the time it was

01:04:15

>> like was it seen as like a controversial

01:04:17

sort of thing?

01:04:18

>> It was but little did we know there was

01:04:21

five of us

01:04:23

thinking we were the first one

01:04:25

>> you know and we hadn't it hadn't been

01:04:27

leaked out yet. So I think um I don't

01:04:31

know was it was it Reggie or might have

01:04:35

been Reggie or John Shusta? One of them

01:04:38

theirs leaked before mine. So I was like

01:04:42

I'm not first.

01:04:44

>> They took the heat.

01:04:46

>> They took the heat. So yeah. So then the

01:04:48

end there was you know there's a few of

01:04:50

us who ended up ended up leaving. I

01:04:52

think there's myself.

01:04:53

>> Oh John Gallagher ended up going to

01:04:55

Leeds.

01:04:57

Um John Schustster I think he went to

01:05:00

the Knights I think. Um

01:05:04

there's uh there's a few others as well

01:05:07

who went um so um so it was it wasn't

01:05:13

that hard to make that decision.

01:05:16

>> Seems like a no-brainer to me but but it

01:05:19

you got to Yeah. And it's I mean it's

01:05:21

very common now. You even have guys like

01:05:23

whether it's Richie Monga or whoever

01:05:25

doing sbaticals in Japan, but at the

01:05:27

time, yeah, it was it was sort of a big

01:05:28

deal. You were almost seen as disloyal

01:05:30

in a way, weren't you?

01:05:31

>> Yeah. I mean, these days you can bounce

01:05:33

from one to the other quite easily. And

01:05:35

and it's great. And it's so, you know,

01:05:36

and so they should,

01:05:38

>> you know, both professionals just like a

01:05:40

job.

01:05:41

>> So, you should be able to bounce from

01:05:42

one to the other without any problems,

01:05:44

you know.

01:05:45

>> Were you were you good with your money?

01:05:46

Like, did anyone teach you about

01:05:48

financial literacy or anything?

01:05:49

>> Not not not a lot. No. And you know,

01:05:53

made a couple of

01:05:55

bad financial

01:05:57

um decisions uh

01:05:59

>> like buying dumb [ __ ] or just bad

01:06:01

investments.

01:06:01

>> In a couple of investments that were

01:06:04

were were I thought were good. a

01:06:08

restaurant

01:06:10

a restaurant motel in with my uh with my

01:06:15

uncle in Tonga which I thought was great

01:06:18

but not

01:06:20

>> and um Lif a company called Lifestyle

01:06:24

Sports um

01:06:27

put some money into that as well

01:06:28

>> and it

01:06:29

>> Yeah, a lot of people I remember

01:06:30

Lifestyle Sport that was like a big

01:06:31

chain maybe before Rebel.

01:06:33

>> Yeah, it was a big It was a chain then.

01:06:35

Yeah. Yeah. And and so we we

01:06:39

the guys who who started it, they ended

01:06:42

up um wanting to buy some of the

01:06:44

franchises back. And so a few of us put

01:06:47

some money in to help with that. And we

01:06:51

we ended up having a a flagship shop

01:06:54

right beside McDonald's in Queen Street.

01:06:56

And it was the first

01:06:58

one of the first shops that had back

01:07:01

wall just all big big big screen

01:07:04

>> TV you know with sport on. So but yeah

01:07:07

one thing and another happened and and

01:07:09

and both of those businesses were just

01:07:12

has some money and and not really

01:07:16

involved in it. So, so yeah, there was

01:07:19

some bad decisions, but you know,

01:07:23

>> what was the the five years in Wigan?

01:07:24

What were they like? You were a big deal

01:07:25

over there. Did you Did your ego ever

01:07:27

get out of control?

01:07:28

>> Um, never. Never. Um, there was too many

01:07:32

superstars in that team. Um, and if

01:07:34

anyone tried to put their head above the

01:07:36

rest of us,

01:07:38

>> everyone else would just all the senior

01:07:40

players would just have them. M

01:07:42

>> Martin the Fire turned up one day and um

01:07:45

you know he was a new signing for us and

01:07:48

I remember he uh he was walking around

01:07:51

and like he was you know he was a man

01:07:54

and we got some new drinks and all that

01:07:58

that which we never got before because

01:08:00

he and we there well because he was

01:08:02

there and so he had a uh he had an

01:08:05

interview after training and when he was

01:08:08

in the shower they got the the boys the

01:08:10

senior boys got all his I threw them in

01:08:12

the in the drink container. He said,

01:08:15

"Mate, don't you think you're bigger

01:08:18

than the rest of us? Cuz you ain't,

01:08:20

buddy." Oh, you didn't have to put my

01:08:22

clothes in. But yeah, and he and he was

01:08:24

fine after that.

01:08:26

>> Just team first, eh?

01:08:27

>> But team first, mate. Yeah. So, um Yeah.

01:08:31

So, that was that. Yeah.

01:08:34

>> Where did you feel um more at home? Did

01:08:38

you have a favorite team like what like

01:08:39

between the Kiwis and the All Blacks?

01:08:44

What was the difference between those

01:08:45

two teams?

01:08:48

>> You're in a rare position. There's not

01:08:49

many people that can answer that, right?

01:08:50

Not many people that play.

01:08:51

>> There's a few. There's a few. Um

01:08:54

League boys, I mean, we all have we all

01:08:57

like a drink. I think the league back in

01:09:00

those days the league boys probably

01:09:02

drank a bit more than the the Old

01:09:04

Blacks. I

01:09:05

>> think Lion Red was the key sponsor,

01:09:06

wasn't it?

01:09:07

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. It's the same

01:09:08

theme.

01:09:10

Low and red and Steiny. Same same

01:09:13

company. Uh yeah, it was um the the the

01:09:17

differences were although we were

01:09:20

amateur, we were probably the All Blacks

01:09:22

were probably um

01:09:25

seen more professional I think in as an

01:09:28

organization

01:09:29

>> probably because it was it had been so

01:09:31

for so long

01:09:32

>> and our national sport

01:09:34

>> and our national sport etc. for his

01:09:36

league. Well, like back in those days,

01:09:38

there was there was just the win uh they

01:09:41

had the Winfield Cup over in Aussie, but

01:09:43

we never had a a team in that

01:09:45

competition. It was just our own local

01:09:48

um league. So, um so that yeah, that

01:09:52

that was main the main thing, the

01:09:54

professionalism

01:09:56

>> and so was a bit bit of an eye opener,

01:09:59

but I mean I loved and enjoyed playing

01:10:02

for the Kiwis. Um, again, we played when

01:10:05

we beat the Australians in Melbourne,

01:10:07

that was a highlight of of of my career

01:10:11

in the in the Kiwi jersey.

01:10:13

>> Yeah. Who was in that team?

01:10:15

>> [ __ ]

01:10:17

McCracken was in there.

01:10:19

>> Sean Hoppy.

01:10:20

>> Um, yeah, I think he was. Yeah. Mate,

01:10:23

honestly,

01:10:24

>> Brent Todd, Reggie.

01:10:26

>> No, Reggie wasn't.

01:10:27

>> Is that later? Richie was he honestly

01:10:31

I'm I'm you've I'm wrecked my brain now.

01:10:34

Richie Blackmore. Um um what's his name?

01:10:40

>> One of the some of the forwards I

01:10:42

honestly

01:10:44

pass.

01:10:45

>> Um yeah.

01:10:47

>> I'll blame I'll blame the stroke.

01:10:51

>> Well, there's like a lot of teams over a

01:10:53

lot of years. Oh yeah. You mentioned

01:10:55

Winfield Cup before. So, Winfield Cup,

01:10:57

that's pretty much like the NRL as we

01:10:59

know it now.

01:11:00

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:11:01

>> I don't even know that might have been

01:11:02

that might have been. Yeah. Yeah. It

01:11:04

was. Yeah. Sure.

01:11:05

>> It's crazy. That's another another crazy

01:11:07

We talk about Lion Red and Steiner like

01:11:08

Yeah. tobacco company sponsoring.

01:11:11

>> So, you you you played um you weren't

01:11:13

there for the first game, but you played

01:11:14

um for the Warriors in 1995, their very

01:11:17

first the debut season.

01:11:19

>> Yeah. How was how was that jumping into

01:11:20

that environment for the first year of

01:11:22

the Warriors?

01:11:22

>> Yeah, it was good. I I came a little bit

01:11:24

later because of I

01:11:26

>> I was just finishing off the season over

01:11:29

in um over in the UK and well was

01:11:32

amazing. I mean obviously the hype, the

01:11:35

crowds um the players that we had in

01:11:39

that team um but I only lasted

01:11:43

four games and then I broke my leg.

01:11:47

So that was uh very short and sharp. Um

01:11:50

and and put me in a little bit of a of a

01:11:54

bind because I was I was going to go

01:11:57

back to like I was going to play that

01:11:59

first year and then probably go back to

01:12:00

Wigan. Um and I I hadn't signed the

01:12:06

contract. I asked for a little bit bit

01:12:08

more money. Um and they said yes, the

01:12:12

contract will come on. And this was on a

01:12:14

Friday.

01:12:15

the contract will be there on Monday and

01:12:17

then I broke my leg in the weekend. So

01:12:20

was uh h thanks but we don't need you

01:12:23

anymore.

01:12:25

So I had to go back. I was had to head

01:12:28

back because of the we still had a house

01:12:30

there and um I was um

01:12:34

I was

01:12:36

didn't have a club. my insurance had run

01:12:39

out while I was over here and I didn't

01:12:41

realize and

01:12:44

um so I ended up going to

01:12:48

Castleford in Yorkshire and and that cuz

01:12:51

they were the only ones who would buy me

01:12:53

with a broken leg basically.

01:12:56

So I just I just did a lot of rehab for

01:12:59

six months and then six six months to

01:13:03

the day I was back playing. So,

01:13:06

>> but it took a lot of lot of training and

01:13:08

and rehabbing and all that sort of

01:13:11

stuff.

01:13:11

>> How's how's your mental health through

01:13:13

through the stuff going on?

01:13:15

>> Oh, yeah. It's all right.

01:13:16

>> Yeah.

01:13:16

>> It um sometimes it gets me down a bit,

01:13:19

>> but you know,

01:13:21

um I'm I'm okay.

01:13:23

>> Yeah.

01:13:24

>> Oh, yeah.

01:13:25

>> It must be Yeah. I can't imagine how

01:13:27

like stressful and um just the anxiety

01:13:29

at the time.

01:13:31

>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. was definitely and and

01:13:33

you know um my partners was very good

01:13:37

and still is. So,

01:13:40

>> so, um, yeah,

01:13:43

>> you looking back on your career, when

01:13:44

when do you think you were happiest?

01:13:50

>> I'm always playing for the All Blacks, I

01:13:53

was happy. Um, you go through different

01:13:56

stages in your life when you're starting

01:13:58

rugby, you have kids while you're

01:14:00

playing rugby, you move to another

01:14:03

country while you're playing rugby or

01:14:05

rugby league. Um, and and and

01:14:08

all through those times you're happy

01:14:11

where you are at at the m at the time

01:14:14

you know like I loved Wigan for example

01:14:17

Wigan's a [ __ ] hole like it's a [ __ ]

01:14:19

hole bro um but the the the people are

01:14:24

amazing friendly

01:14:29

huge supporters last time I went back

01:14:32

there for example last year that there

01:14:34

were people coming up asking for auto uh

01:14:36

for to sign a photo and then these old

01:14:40

these older ladies and then they got

01:14:41

another photo of me and them when they

01:14:44

were young

01:14:45

>> and they've still got them. It's like

01:14:47

I'm like, "Man, have you

01:14:49

>> you got guy's got nothing else or

01:14:51

nothing better to I didn't say that, but

01:14:53

I'm going like I'm thinking, man, you

01:14:56

you still got that photo of you and me

01:14:58

and you want another one?" And I'm like,

01:15:01

I mean, yeah, no problem. But I'm like,

01:15:03

man,

01:15:04

thanks. Thanks for remembering. You

01:15:06

know,

01:15:06

>> that's cool though, that you've had that

01:15:08

sort of impact on people.

01:15:10

>> Um, yeah, it is. It is great. It is

01:15:13

great. And you know it's

01:15:15

uh it's Wigan's in around all the

01:15:17

football teams but it's in that area.

01:15:20

Wigan is strong. The club even the

01:15:23

amateur club scene is pretty strong

01:15:26

there. They their setup is is is better

01:15:29

than I think one of the best I've seen.

01:15:32

There's nowhere in New Zealand who has a

01:15:34

setup better than them.

01:15:35

>> Wow.

01:15:36

>> You know.

01:15:37

>> So yeah, they've got they got things

01:15:40

happening. So I loved it there. But I

01:15:41

loved it there because I knew I was

01:15:43

always coming back to New Zealand.

01:15:45

>> Then I went to Wales to Lenley. I really

01:15:50

liked it down there too. They were

01:15:51

fanatical. They're crazy fanatical,

01:15:54

especially beating the All Blacks once

01:15:57

in this

01:15:59

the score still stays up on the board in

01:16:02

between games, you know. Like you

01:16:06

>> get over it.

01:16:07

>> Get over it, you know. So everywhere I I

01:16:09

played in Italy um and lived in Italy

01:16:12

for a couple of years. Me and Mike

01:16:13

Brewer played there. So again, love that

01:16:16

little town and and everywhere you go,

01:16:20

we you you get a lot of good close

01:16:22

friends. You know, you don't see them

01:16:23

very often, but you know, I went back to

01:16:25

Wigan and and and bumped in some of the

01:16:28

boys and and it was like like we're all

01:16:31

a bit older, but still the same sort of

01:16:33

[ __ ] banter and all that sort of

01:16:35

stuff, you know?

01:16:38

Do do you have like um like a like a

01:16:40

like a games room or a man cave or an

01:16:42

office at home? Like have you got any

01:16:44

memorabilia? You got you got anything

01:16:47

hanging up?

01:16:48

>> No, I did a little um um program on um

01:16:52

on on

01:16:54

um it's called Pathfinders and part of

01:16:56

that was to show some of the jerseys

01:16:58

that I had and that was the first time

01:17:01

I'd open that thing for a long time. So

01:17:04

no, the answer is no. It's in a They're

01:17:07

in big sto little storage bins, you

01:17:09

know,

01:17:10

>> like system containers or something.

01:17:11

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, they're about that big

01:17:13

and and they're full of of memorabilia

01:17:16

and all that. I don't I have never put

01:17:18

them up in a in a property. Um but I

01:17:22

have cuz my granddaughter was saw it and

01:17:25

I had the box down there with the

01:17:27

jerseys. She had a quick look through it

01:17:29

and saw one of the jerseys and tried to

01:17:31

take four or five of them and I said,

01:17:33

"You can't take those." And she goes,

01:17:35

"Yeah, but we have to go and buy those.

01:17:38

We have and they're expensive, those

01:17:40

rugby jerseys." And I'm like, "Oh,

01:17:43

they're getting they're back in again,

01:17:44

you know, the old school." And that's

01:17:46

and they're real good material and thick

01:17:49

and warm. And so I ended up giving her

01:17:52

the Argentinian jersey. Wow.

01:17:53

>> But she wanted my old black jerseys. I'm

01:17:55

thinking, "You're not No, no, no. Go

01:17:59

away."

01:18:00

>> So even though they're not on display,

01:18:01

they they clearly mean something to you.

01:18:03

>> Yeah. Yeah. They're there. And I've

01:18:04

actually just I I got some of them out.

01:18:06

I had to wash them a couple of times. Um

01:18:09

hang them out in the fresh air and and

01:18:10

and and

01:18:12

now I start wearing them over the

01:18:13

winter. I've been wearing

01:18:15

>> actually Yeah, I wear the um I got the

01:18:17

the the the

01:18:20

English bars, black and white top, but I

01:18:24

got a French one. I've been wearing

01:18:26

French bars. One, I got a heap of them.

01:18:30

I'm going, man, I should have started

01:18:31

wearing couple of them to be fair. A

01:18:33

couple of them I can't fit.

01:18:38

>> Got imagine turning up to an open home

01:18:40

in Foasic there wearing like an old

01:18:42

rugby jersey.

01:18:43

>> Oh yeah. Well, I'd get dressed up a bit

01:18:45

more.

01:18:45

>> Yeah. Yeah. You You've got no um Yeah,

01:18:48

they clearly mean a lot to you. The fact

01:18:49

that you've still got them in the

01:18:50

they've been stored carefully, but you

01:18:52

got no interest in displaying them or

01:18:55

>> No, I mean the house is our house is we

01:18:58

got a nice house, but it's not enough

01:19:00

room to Yeah. Like it would mean you'd

01:19:03

have you need I need I would need a

01:19:05

bigger room than this, you know.

01:19:08

>> It's it's not Yeah, I mean I might at

01:19:11

some stage, but at the moment they don't

01:19:14

want to be sitting in there all the time

01:19:16

because they'll just disappear.

01:19:19

>> But even if I give some away to the

01:19:20

grandkids, then at least they're getting

01:19:22

used, you know,

01:19:24

>> not not the all black.

01:19:25

>> Don't give them to the grandkids.

01:19:27

There's um there's an Instagram page

01:19:28

called Jersey Hunter and uh I reckon you

01:19:30

could get top dollar at Jersey Hunter.

01:19:35

>> I'll write that down.

01:19:37

>> Well, otherwise you give them to the

01:19:38

grandkids and they'll they'll be giving

01:19:39

them to Jersey Hunter.

01:19:40

>> Yeah, I'll be I'll I'll be online.

01:19:42

>> Hey.

01:19:43

>> Hey, that's mine.

01:19:44

>> That's mine. Check.

01:19:46

>> How many did you get like one all black

01:19:48

jersey per season or?

01:19:50

>> Yeah, generally per game.

01:19:52

>> Per game. Yeah, even back then.

01:19:53

>> Yeah. Um well not per maybe per series

01:19:57

you used to get them and they used to

01:19:59

have big Stein logo things on them. Um

01:20:02

so I have got a framed one of the World

01:20:05

Cup one. So we all got it was great.

01:20:09

>> We all ended up getting one of those

01:20:11

that and the second time we won the

01:20:13

World Cup which was

01:20:15

>> 2011.

01:20:16

>> Yeah. 2011. So

01:20:19

>> fully framed with everybody's signature

01:20:22

on there.

01:20:23

Um, so that was that was good. It was

01:20:27

nice of them to do that.

01:20:30

>> That's under the bed.

01:20:33

>> It's m It's about the second half the

01:20:36

size of that window over there, mate.

01:20:39

>> It's funny. Like when whenever I have um

01:20:41

like ex you know sports people on it, I

01:20:43

I like to ask them that because

01:20:44

everyone's got like a different sort of

01:20:45

answer. Like when I when I had Christian

01:20:46

Cullen on, he um he had his stored in

01:20:49

boxes in the attic and a couple of years

01:20:51

ago he was like, "What am I going to do

01:20:52

with them?" So now the kids wear them to

01:20:54

school and they just wear them around.

01:20:56

>> There's everyone has like a different

01:20:58

relationship, I guess, with their with

01:21:00

their jerseys.

01:21:02

>> Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, they

01:21:04

were

01:21:05

it was at some point sentimental, and

01:21:07

you had all these big grand ideas of

01:21:09

putting them up somewhere, etc. Uh but

01:21:12

there's so many of them. I mean, and

01:21:15

I've lost heaps of them.

01:21:17

>> Like, yeah, the problem back in the day

01:21:19

is you you go, "Oh, yeah. Someone who

01:21:22

owns a pub. Yeah, I'll give you that

01:21:24

one." You know, you can have that one.

01:21:27

And now, um, you're like, "Man, that pub

01:21:30

isn't there anymore. I wonder what

01:21:32

happened to my my jersey." Or you forget

01:21:34

you forget who you gave them to, you

01:21:36

know? Um, I've got somebody found one up

01:21:41

north and the guy's selling the pub. Oh,

01:21:44

up in Fare. I gave them a uh I gave them

01:21:48

a uh I gave them a jersey and he's

01:21:52

selling it and one of my mates

01:21:54

was up there and he they got talking

01:21:58

about it and he's going to send it back

01:22:00

down to me. I was like, that's the first

01:22:03

time that's happened.

01:22:04

>> How good.

01:22:04

>> So, yeah. So that's that's nice of it.

01:22:07

>> Um, what about leg? Do is legacy

01:22:09

something you think about much? Like

01:22:11

when when people talk about Freno

01:22:12

Bodica, what would you like them to say?

01:22:15

>> Um, oh mate, I got just that he was a a

01:22:19

good running rug uh running player.

01:22:23

Um, I'm a nice guy,

01:22:26

>> you know, that's that like just that's

01:22:29

that's all that I would want them to

01:22:31

think. like in their mind they think,

01:22:34

"Oh, running and scoring tries and

01:22:38

whatever." So that's that's all really

01:22:41

>> nothing nothing any bigger than that.

01:22:44

>> That second part's really cool. I think

01:22:46

that that's way more important. Eh,

01:22:48

>> oh yeah, exactly. Um um how you are off

01:22:52

the field um and and how you are to

01:22:55

other people is more important.

01:22:58

>> Yeah. Are you a nice guy? Like are you

01:23:00

someone you'd want to have a beer with?

01:23:02

>> Yep. I'm definitely a nice guy.

01:23:04

>> I doesn't think so.

01:23:06

>> No, no, he doesn't. I don't mind, you

01:23:08

know, I don't mind talking to anybody

01:23:09

really. Like if someone is is polite

01:23:12

enough to or wants to come and say hello

01:23:15

to you than that. I don't have a problem

01:23:16

with it. Um

01:23:18

>> obviously some people

01:23:20

just go on and on and on and you get

01:23:22

sick of that. But instead of being

01:23:25

telling him to shut the hell up, you

01:23:27

just go, "Mate,

01:23:29

love talking, but I've got to get over

01:23:31

here."

01:23:31

>> And you just do it politely, you know?

01:23:34

>> Yeah.

01:23:34

>> As opposed to

01:23:36

>> Yeah. You must find it especially

01:23:37

difficult in those drinking

01:23:38

environments, I suppose, where mainly

01:23:40

dudes of a certain age just want to talk

01:23:42

about

01:23:42

>> Yeah. the glory days.

01:23:44

>> Yeah. Well, there are. Yeah. Uh, like I

01:23:46

say, I give them a couple of minutes or

01:23:48

if if I'm in no rush to do anything,

01:23:50

then I don't have a problem with sitting

01:23:52

there talking [ __ ] for a while.

01:23:55

>> Yeah.

01:23:56

>> Cuz it's I mean, it's it's

01:23:58

>> they they've got good memories of it.

01:24:00

And you don't want to be an [ __ ] and

01:24:02

>> Yeah.

01:24:02

>> The last memory they have of you is

01:24:04

being a dick,

01:24:05

>> you know?

01:24:06

>> Well, it's a big moment for them, I

01:24:07

guess.

01:24:08

>> Yeah.

01:24:09

>> Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, they they

01:24:12

a lot of people out there have been

01:24:14

following

01:24:15

different rugby players, league players,

01:24:18

you know, all their lives and and

01:24:20

sometimes they've never met one or or

01:24:24

one of their favorites or or

01:24:27

>> someone who just brings back a memory.

01:24:29

So, you know, you got to

01:24:31

>> got to give them their um

01:24:34

little bit of time.

01:24:36

>> Oh. Oh, yeah. How was that adjustment to

01:24:39

um you know being a player for such a

01:24:41

big part of your life and at such a high

01:24:42

level to suddenly it not being there

01:24:44

anymore? Was that a hard transition for

01:24:46

you? Was it hard navigating?

01:24:48

>> It was pretty tough. Yeah, it was pretty

01:24:50

tough and uh

01:24:54

I ended up Yeah. having a a marriage

01:24:57

breakup at the same at the same time. So

01:25:01

yeah, got it was pretty tough for a few

01:25:02

years, you know, and then getting into

01:25:04

the workforce again was pretty tough. I

01:25:06

think these days they are

01:25:10

they have the background staff and all

01:25:13

that sort of stuff and other people to

01:25:15

help the younger guys through all that

01:25:18

and and um financial advice

01:25:23

etc. Um that's around a lot more than it

01:25:26

was back in my day.

01:25:27

>> So yeah,

01:25:29

>> you what um yeah you mentioned the

01:25:31

marriage break up there that that was

01:25:32

before your current partner who you've

01:25:34

been engaged to for 14 years. One day,

01:25:36

one day we're going to put a ring on it.

01:25:37

Um, but yeah. Do you think um yeah, part

01:25:40

of the demise of that marriage was just

01:25:42

your adjustment from being a player to

01:25:44

not being a player?

01:25:46

>> Oh, yeah. Look, it was a probably a

01:25:48

number of things. I was um we just built

01:25:51

a house in um out in Par and um

01:25:56

not too close to the prison, but just in

01:25:59

case you're wondering,

01:26:01

>> I believe the the sections right next

01:26:03

door are very affordable.

01:26:04

>> They're very affordable. Yeah, big

01:26:06

sights too.

01:26:07

>> Terrible neighbors.

01:26:07

>> Um um yeah, big sight too.

01:26:09

>> Um

01:26:10

>> so where were we going with that one?

01:26:12

>> Oh yeah, I just wondered if um like the

01:26:14

just from your your perspective like the

01:26:16

the mental adjustment to going from this

01:26:18

exciting

01:26:19

>> exhilarating like technical life of

01:26:21

being a player at the top level to

01:26:23

>> suddenly just being a regular civilian

01:26:25

again. I wonder if that played played a

01:26:26

part in the demise of the marriage.

01:26:28

>> Yeah. No, no, that didn't. Um that was

01:26:30

my own that was my own fault. Um and and

01:26:32

we also um because of the age of the

01:26:35

kids, we brought them back to go to you

01:26:37

know to to to especially for the oldest

01:26:41

to go to college back in New Zealand,

01:26:44

not not overseas.

01:26:47

>> And so for that reason, I ended up going

01:26:51

to France by myself and then they would

01:26:53

come over twice a twice in the season.

01:26:57

So that was that was probably the worst

01:27:00

thing. M

01:27:02

>> yeah it's a big distance isn't it?

01:27:04

>> And that's how it started. So

01:27:06

>> yeah um what makes you feel most alive

01:27:10

these days?

01:27:12

>> Like I I I just wonder like

01:27:14

>> from the perspective of someone that's

01:27:16

never never done anything too exciting

01:27:17

in his life. Like I can't imagine the

01:27:19

exhilaration of like you know kicking

01:27:21

matchwinning points in front of 50,000

01:27:23

people. And I just wonder what what

01:27:25

brings you the same sort of happiness

01:27:26

after that stops

01:27:27

>> in the sporting field just paddling. Um

01:27:31

um otherwise just going down to our

01:27:35

local and and sitting in the sun having

01:27:37

a a rosé or a beer or or a wine or

01:27:42

something with the misses. Yeah, it's

01:27:44

good laugh.

01:27:46

>> I think that's an exclusive Fabotica.

01:27:48

He's a rosé man.

01:27:50

>> Actually, I I do I like in the summer I

01:27:52

like rosé. I'd much rather have bubbles,

01:27:55

but I'm a I'm a bubbles snob. So if it

01:27:59

ain't champagne then I ain't drinking

01:28:01

it.

01:28:02

>> Imagine imagine in the late ' 80s being

01:28:04

in the black changing room and passing

01:28:06

on the stone lager and waiting for a

01:28:07

bottle of rosé.

01:28:09

I didn't know what rose was back in

01:28:10

those days so it was all right, you

01:28:12

know.

01:28:13

>> Um so I feel like um in in your 60s it's

01:28:16

almost like um a reflective stage of

01:28:18

life in a way. Um what what are you

01:28:20

still working on as a man?

01:28:23

Um, like most men, um, communication,

01:28:26

um, with my partner, I really need to

01:28:29

work on that a lot more because, you

01:28:31

know, we sometimes we still just hold a

01:28:33

few things in that that we we should

01:28:35

probably get out. Um, and whether that's

01:28:38

through health, um, and trying to keep

01:28:41

that private

01:28:43

>> um, and not wanting to let anyone know

01:28:45

when when the best person to talk to is

01:28:47

your your partner.

01:28:49

>> So, yeah, I'm a I'm I'm not too good at

01:28:51

that. and and sharing information a bit

01:28:55

sooner than than the day before that

01:28:57

we're going to I forgot to tell you

01:29:02

where

01:29:03

we're meant to be here tomorrow.

01:29:06

>> I think um I think a lot of what you

01:29:08

talk about like it comes from a place of

01:29:10

love. It's like I don't want to burden

01:29:11

her with this like I don't I you know

01:29:13

but but really you're doing um the

01:29:15

relationship a disservice by not sharing

01:29:17

it. the relationship a disservice and if

01:29:19

it goes on too much and it it can spiral

01:29:22

down um and that's when when bad things

01:29:25

might start to happen to you. So um

01:29:28

mentally. So yeah um

01:29:32

yeah. So you just got to I've got and

01:29:34

I'm I'm I am hopeless and I just got to

01:29:37

get better at it, you know,

01:29:39

>> and um so that's really what I've I've

01:29:42

got to do. Um um yeah, but that's that's

01:29:47

what I like doing, just having a quiet

01:29:49

drink. And

01:29:50

>> yeah,

01:29:50

>> don't get me wrong, once a year or twice

01:29:52

a year, I don't mind going out with the

01:29:54

boys and having a

01:29:56

>> not so quiet,

01:29:57

>> but not not two days close beside each

01:29:59

other cuz it's a long recovery these

01:30:02

days.

01:30:03

>> Oh my god. Isn't it? Yeah. The 4-day

01:30:05

hangover. What the [ __ ] is that?

01:30:06

>> I know. I know. It's like [ __ ] I mean,

01:30:08

I get up and I jump on my bike, wind

01:30:11

trainer, and I just put a a jacket on

01:30:14

and just I can put the bike in the sun

01:30:17

and just pedal uh pedal pedal until I

01:30:20

can I start sweating

01:30:22

>> um and get some of the alcohol out, but

01:30:24

but it's Yeah, it's it's there's big

01:30:26

gaps in between there.

01:30:27

>> It seems like you got some really good

01:30:29

um male mates like and and old teammates

01:30:32

that you can um shoot the [ __ ] with. Um,

01:30:35

yeah. Are are you good with the

01:30:37

vulnerability piece with with malemates?

01:30:40

Like if if you're not feeling 100%. I

01:30:42

bring this up one of your one of your

01:30:44

teammates in the late 80s um and also in

01:30:46

the 90s actually at um the Warriors, Sir

01:30:49

John Kerwin, who has probably done more

01:30:51

for men's mental health in New Zealand

01:30:53

than anyone.

01:30:54

>> Yeah. Yeah, he definitely has. And um

01:30:57

>> game changer.

01:30:58

>> Yeah, it was. Especially

01:30:59

>> because most people would have looked at

01:31:01

him and gone, "Mate, this fell's

01:31:02

invincible. He's he's huge. He's a big

01:31:06

guy. He loves rugby. He's so good at it.

01:31:09

He's got his

01:31:10

>> good looking like

01:31:12

>> he's handsome,

01:31:13

>> good looking fell and he's got the the

01:31:16

world's his oyster, you know, and you

01:31:19

people would put him up here and and and

01:31:22

in reality and he was going through

01:31:25

challenges and issues and and you know

01:31:28

like back in those days he's exactly

01:31:30

right. It's like hard. It was the it the

01:31:34

only thing that came back when you said,

01:31:35

"Oh, mate, I've got this and that." Is

01:31:37

mate hard enough. Like what's wrong with

01:31:39

you?

01:31:40

>> Yeah. Stop being a [ __ ]

01:31:41

>> Yeah. You're soft [ __ ] you know.

01:31:43

>> But um so he has definitely done a lot.

01:31:46

Um it's still but it is still hard for

01:31:50

for for

01:31:51

males to open up even if it's to your

01:31:55

mates you know

01:31:56

>> sometimes

01:31:57

>> when it shouldn't be really

01:31:59

>> but if I don't know what it is.

01:32:01

>> Yeah.

01:32:01

>> It's that it's that macho

01:32:04

um don't want to look soft in front of

01:32:07

people. I I'll be able to work this out.

01:32:09

And I suppose with some guys

01:32:12

>> my their I'm just going to work it out.

01:32:14

it it's too late and then something

01:32:17

might might happen. So,

01:32:21

>> which is which is not good.

01:32:22

>> No.

01:32:24

>> Um Yeah. You mentioned your grandkids a

01:32:27

couple of times. How many? Seven. Seven

01:32:28

of them.

01:32:29

>> Yeah. Seven.

01:32:29

>> Yeah. How How do you hope they see you

01:32:31

as a man?

01:32:32

>> Um

01:32:35

Um

01:32:36

>> What are you like?

01:32:37

>> The supplier of the supplier of rugby

01:32:40

jerseys to them.

01:32:43

No, I just I mean I've been to watch

01:32:45

watch some of their sports not as much

01:32:47

as I I I I want to or would have wanted

01:32:51

to. They they have they moved up from

01:32:54

Christ Church at the beginning of this

01:32:56

year. So So I was even further away. So

01:32:59

um m just that that I I go and watch

01:33:02

their sports when I can that if they

01:33:05

want me on the other end of the phone

01:33:07

that's

01:33:08

>> I'm there. Um

01:33:12

um they my granddaughter will I'm not

01:33:16

sure whether I'm her favorite because

01:33:18

she gave me late notice and asked for an

01:33:20

all black ticket to the game and I'm

01:33:22

like hey I might be able to get one and

01:33:24

I haven't been able to. So

01:33:26

>> how how old are they? How old are the

01:33:28

grandkids?

01:33:28

>> Um the oldest is uh 16 and she's so she

01:33:32

she's the one who took my Argentinian

01:33:35

rugby jersey. Um so um and then it's 16

01:33:41

14

01:33:44

11 9 and two I think

01:33:49

>> and and then the boys are

01:33:53

I think one and two on the other side.

01:33:55

>> Wow.

01:33:55

>> And then Yeah.

01:33:57

>> Yeah. I mean you you your playing days

01:33:59

were over by the time they came along.

01:34:00

But do they have an appreciation for for

01:34:02

just how good you were?

01:34:04

um the older they get, they they look at

01:34:07

videos or online in between all that

01:34:10

other [ __ ] that kids watch

01:34:13

um and go, "Oh." And sometimes my

01:34:16

daughter will ring me and go, "Oh, kids

01:34:18

were just saying, "Oh, I didn't

01:34:19

realize." Cuz what they call me Koro

01:34:22

Koro Mumu. Because when they were

01:34:25

younger, I was the same old thing. They

01:34:26

I don't know what they were trying to

01:34:28

say, but it was Kor Mumu. So that's what

01:34:30

they call me. and they just say, "Oh,

01:34:32

Cotto Mumu was I didn't think I didn't

01:34:34

realize he was that he was good like

01:34:36

that,

01:34:37

>> you know."

01:34:39

>> But yeah, so got a a net baller and a

01:34:42

rugby player or league rugby or league.

01:34:44

He plays both at the moment. So,

01:34:47

>> are you getting um more emotional as you

01:34:49

get older?

01:34:50

>> I find I find I am in my 20s or 30s. I

01:34:52

could probably count how much I cried on

01:34:54

like one hand.

01:34:56

>> Now, a sad movie will get me going.

01:34:58

>> Yeah. Yeah. sad movies and and and

01:35:02

sort of tragedies whether it's a doco or

01:35:05

whatever that Yeah, mate. I I don't I

01:35:08

think I was like this when I was

01:35:09

younger, too, but I hit it better. But

01:35:12

yeah, no, I I get a tear tear to the eye

01:35:15

quite easily these days watching some of

01:35:17

the [ __ ] on TV going, well, it's not

01:35:19

[ __ ] but I'm like, man,

01:35:21

>> it's quite a nice emotion to lean into

01:35:23

though, eh?

01:35:23

>> Yeah. I sort of got to turn my head.

01:35:27

>> Yeah. You're still like a little little

01:35:28

bit sort of embarrassed about it.

01:35:30

>> Yeah, she knows cuz you're soft, man.

01:35:32

I'm like cuz she's my she doesn't she's

01:35:35

she's a bit tougher in that aspect.

01:35:39

>> But she she watches scary movies all the

01:35:43

time and I

01:35:46

>> I I'm hopeless. I hate them. They scare

01:35:49

the [ __ ] out of me.

01:35:50

>> Yeah. Especially that one where you know

01:35:52

it's coming. But I still go like that

01:35:54

and she's go and she's just sitting

01:35:56

there going that's ridiculous. You knew

01:35:58

it was coming. I said well yeah I know I

01:36:01

knew it was coming but when it came

01:36:03

still made me jump because

01:36:05

she goes she shakes her head. I'm like

01:36:10

I'm exactly the same. I I loathe horror

01:36:13

movies and they do that thing where the

01:36:15

music's building and yeah you know it's

01:36:16

you know it's happening. Um, do you have

01:36:19

any regrets?

01:36:22

>> Do I have any regrets?

01:36:24

Um,

01:36:26

no. Not in the not in the sense of of of

01:36:29

where I've been and what I've done um in

01:36:31

my life. The only regret is probably

01:36:33

more um setting things up for when I

01:36:38

finished playing rugby

01:36:40

>> and and and and maybe having done that

01:36:45

through with some professionals who

01:36:48

could direct you in a in a in a better

01:36:50

path.

01:36:51

>> So

01:36:53

>> yeah,

01:36:54

>> probably probably only that. Um, you

01:36:57

know, we all do some silly things here

01:36:58

and there um as as we get on. And I'm no

01:37:02

different. I did some stupid things when

01:37:04

I was, you know, single

01:37:07

>> um for a few years thinking I was still

01:37:11

a teenager running around being stupid.

01:37:13

But

01:37:14

>> but nothing that hurt anybody hopefully.

01:37:19

>> Um, yeah, that's the thing about getting

01:37:21

older. So sometimes you don't realize

01:37:23

you're getting older and then you look

01:37:24

in the mirror. I don't know if it's the

01:37:25

same for you. I look in the mirror like,

01:37:26

"Who is that old guy looking back at

01:37:28

me?"

01:37:29

>> Yeah. No, I do. I go, "Jesus,

01:37:31

>> where's where have the years gone?"

01:37:34

>> Um, what about future goals?

01:37:38

>> No, just to be happy, spend more time um

01:37:40

with with the grandkids as they as they

01:37:43

grow up. Again, like I say, it's a a

01:37:45

little bit tough when they live in out

01:37:48

of out of town, but um hopefully um when

01:37:53

they all come back this way, the boys as

01:37:56

well that you know, just there'll be

01:37:58

times when we get the family together a

01:38:00

lot more often,

01:38:02

>> you know.

01:38:02

>> Yeah. It seems like you're quite I don't

01:38:03

know if I don't know if this was on the

01:38:04

on the podcast or before we came in the

01:38:06

studio, but you mentioned um on the

01:38:07

drive here today, you spoke to your son

01:38:09

Ben in France. So, you're obviously

01:38:11

quite Yeah. quite connected. You're

01:38:12

quite you're quite in touch with

01:38:14

everyone. Quite familycentric.

01:38:16

>> Oh yeah. I just um

01:38:19

I just ring up um every week with the

01:38:22

boys, see how they're going.

01:38:24

>> Maybe twice a week sometimes um and just

01:38:28

see see how the rugy's going. I I mean I

01:38:29

see some of it on TV um or the

01:38:32

highlights of it and just see what he

01:38:34

was thinking on some points.

01:38:38

>> Does he appreciate the input?

01:38:40

>> Um

01:38:41

>> probably.

01:38:41

>> Yeah. Yeah, they they appreciate some of

01:38:43

the input. Um,

01:38:46

>> some of it they know, like I said, like

01:38:48

one of my the oldest boy

01:38:50

>> got some some tips off of off somebody

01:38:53

else. Um, which I don't mind, you know,

01:38:57

it's fine as long as sometimes it's

01:38:59

harder even now it's still harder of

01:39:01

them to

01:39:02

>> get the info off me

01:39:05

>> as opposed to that fellow over there who

01:39:07

just said what I just said,

01:39:08

>> you know,

01:39:09

>> and a different slightly different. But

01:39:11

yeah, Dad. Yeah, I'm all right, Dad. So,

01:39:13

>> yeah, Dad. Things are different now,

01:39:14

Dad.

01:39:15

>> Yeah. Well Well, unfortunately, they're

01:39:17

not some of that stuff that they do. So,

01:39:20

>> yeah. So,

01:39:21

>> and what what are your thoughts on

01:39:23

retirement? So, you're like three years

01:39:25

away from the New Zealand government

01:39:27

retirement age, but I mean 65, it's

01:39:30

[ __ ] young, isn't it? You still got a

01:39:31

lot of life ahead after that. You

01:39:33

planning on retiring or you just want to

01:39:35

keep on going?

01:39:36

>> Um, no. I don't really want to keep on

01:39:38

going.

01:39:39

>> What? Are you stupid?

01:39:43

>> What What would you do though? Like I

01:39:45

feel like you need a reason to get out

01:39:46

of bed.

01:39:47

>> Oh, I'll f Don't you worry. I'll find

01:39:48

plenty of reasons. It's not a problem.

01:39:52

Are you going to be able to retire at

01:39:53

65?

01:39:54

>> Um, yeah, I think I will.

01:39:55

>> Y

01:39:58

>> um, and if if um, what three words would

01:40:01

you like family or friends to use to

01:40:03

describe you? So, say say you weren't in

01:40:06

the room, but you were through that

01:40:08

glass listening and your grandkids or

01:40:09

your kids were in here or your fiance.

01:40:11

What three words would you like them to

01:40:13

use to describe you?

01:40:15

>> How do you hope they would see you?

01:40:16

>> Um,

01:40:20

thoughtful.

01:40:22

loving

01:40:24

and

01:40:27

full loving

01:40:30

and caring.

01:40:32

>> That's all.

01:40:33

>> They're great words, eh? It feels like

01:40:36

they're all quite similar.

01:40:38

>> Yeah, they are. Um,

01:40:43

fun as well. Like, let's go and see

01:40:45

grandad. He's fun.

01:40:49

You do you load them up with sugar or

01:40:50

are you quite responsible?

01:40:52

>> Mate, when they with I remember my I

01:40:55

went down to Christ Church to uh to look

01:40:57

after the kids cuz my my daughter was

01:40:59

out of town with work and so was um my

01:41:03

son-in-law and she had three pages on

01:41:07

each child and what they will try and do

01:41:10

what they I looked at it and I rang her.

01:41:12

I said, "What the hell is this?" She

01:41:14

goes, "They're going to try that stuff."

01:41:17

And this is what you got to do. I looked

01:41:18

at it. I went, "Okay." Did nothing of

01:41:22

it. If they wanted something, they got

01:41:24

it.

01:41:28

Yeah. Okay. No worries. Like, "Oh, mom

01:41:31

only lets us have one." Well, you That's

01:41:33

all right. I'm not mom like I'm I'm

01:41:37

grandad and you can have it.

01:41:39

>> So,

01:41:40

>> like an instruction manual. But I think

01:41:41

that's the perk of being a granddad,

01:41:42

isn't it? That's um Yeah, that's the

01:41:45

pleasure of being a grandparent,

01:41:46

spoiling your kids and then giving them

01:41:48

back.

01:41:48

>> Yeah.

01:41:49

>> I don't care what my daughter says to me

01:41:50

and what I should and shouldn't do. I

01:41:52

don't I'm not going to listen to you.

01:41:54

You never listen to me, so no.

01:41:57

>> Oh, that's cool. I can see your eyes

01:41:59

light up when you talk about um your

01:42:01

kids and your grandkids. It's cool.

01:42:03

>> Yeah. No, no, love talking to my my kids

01:42:06

all the time and and love seeing them

01:42:08

succeed in in different areas, whether

01:42:11

it's sport and in you know, and my

01:42:13

daughter and her and and my son-in-law

01:42:15

and business are doing really well. So,

01:42:18

>> so it's great.

01:42:19

>> Yeah. Really love it.

01:42:21

>> This has been a great chat today. Do you

01:42:22

do you enjoy do do you enjoy reflecting?

01:42:25

You enjoy a conversation like this or um

01:42:28

>> you indifferent to it?

01:42:29

>> I don't mind it. I love it when like uh

01:42:33

when you're talking about it with the

01:42:35

your the rugby boys and you because you

01:42:39

keep they keep bringing up stories that

01:42:41

you forgot about and you go, "Oh man,

01:42:43

that was so funny." And then you you go

01:42:45

in off on another tangent and and and

01:42:47

the stories keep flowing and you there's

01:42:50

nothing like a good laugh

01:42:52

>> all the time. Not all the time, but most

01:42:54

of the time, you know, you just want to

01:42:57

have a laugh every now and then.

01:42:58

>> So that and it's generally from from

01:43:02

past memories

01:43:04

>> where you just crack up and go,

01:43:06

>> what were we thinking?

01:43:08

>> So funny.

01:43:08

>> Yeah.

01:43:09

>> Yeah.

01:43:10

>> Oh, that's cool. Well, thanks for coming

01:43:11

today and being so open.

01:43:13

>> Yes.

01:43:14

>> It hasn't been too unpleasant.

01:43:16

>> No, no, it's been easy. And you can you

01:43:20

say hello to to my mate on Friday.

01:43:24

>> Oh yeah, Warren Gatland. Yeah, he's he's

01:43:25

coming in.

01:43:26

>> Yeah.

01:43:26

>> Yeah. Say hello to him. That would be

01:43:28

good.

01:43:28

>> I'll um drop some words like um ask him

01:43:30

about life as a dirty dirty.

01:43:32

>> Yeah, you can. You can. Yeah, he was

01:43:34

pretty good. Dirty dirty to be fair.

01:43:38

>> He's gone all right. I thought about him

01:43:39

before when you were talking about Wales

01:43:40

and just how passionate they are over

01:43:41

there. It's like um if you're a

01:43:43

successful coach over there like

01:43:44

>> Sir Graeme Henry was and Warren Gatland.

01:43:47

Yeah. Like Warren Gatlin have got some

01:43:48

gates to the stadium named after him.

01:43:52

>> Principality Stadium. There's Gatlin

01:43:54

Gates.

01:43:55

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, they've done he's done

01:43:56

an amazing job over there and coached,

01:43:59

you know, done some coached some great

01:44:01

teams and that. So, I mean, good on

01:44:03

them. I mean,

01:44:06

>> full credit. Yeah.

01:44:09

>> Last one. Are you proud of yourself?

01:44:12

>> Am I proud of myself? For the majority

01:44:14

of of what I've done here,

01:44:16

>> in my life, I'm pretty proud of myself.

01:44:19

>> You know, there's always going to be one

01:44:21

or two

01:44:23

things that I've, you know, we've all

01:44:25

done in our life where we go, "Oh,

01:44:26

Jesus, shouldn't have done that. Oh, I

01:44:29

shouldn't have done that."

01:44:31

>> Those I find those intrusive thoughts,

01:44:32

they sort of come into your head at 2 in

01:44:34

the morning when you wake up. You think

01:44:36

about something you did back in the 80s

01:44:37

or

01:44:38

>> something random. And you're like, I

01:44:40

don't know why I'm thinking of this, but

01:44:42

yeah. So, yeah.

01:44:45

>> Yeah. Well, Franica, thank you so much

01:44:47

for coming on the podcast today, mate.

01:44:48

It's been bloody brilliant. I've really

01:44:50

enjoyed it, and I can't thank you enough

01:44:51

for your time, mate.

01:44:52

>> Cheers, though.

01:44:52

>> Yeah. Cheers.

01:44:53

>> Thanks, bro.

Badges

This episode stands out for the following:

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Episode Highlights

Transitioning from Rugby
Navigating life after an 18-year rugby career is no easy feat.
“I can't imagine that transition part's easy.”
@ 02m 43s
October 12, 2025
Cultural Connections
Exploring his Croatian roots and the regret of not learning the language.
“I wish I could speak Croatian.”
@ 13m 40s
October 12, 2025
Making the All Blacks
In 1986, I made the All Black Squad for the first time, a core memory for me.
“I knew I had a shot because all the Cavaliers had gone.”
@ 30m 15s
October 12, 2025
The Drop Kick Moment
During my first game for the All Blacks, I unexpectedly kicked two drop goals.
“I’d never done a drop kick before in my life, but they went over!”
@ 31m 26s
October 12, 2025
The Drinking Culture of Rugby
Exploring the drinking culture among rugby players in the past, with humorous anecdotes.
“It was a real drinking culture at the time.”
@ 39m 00s
October 12, 2025
World Cup Memories
Reflecting on the 1987 Rugby World Cup and the significance of being part of the team.
“I definitely feel like a World Cup winner.”
@ 46m 54s
October 12, 2025
A Scary Experience in Argentina
Recalling a frightening match against a notorious team in Argentina.
“We had to walk through a corridor of angry locals.”
@ 55m 59s
October 12, 2025
Unexpected Contract Signing
A casual dinner at KFC turns into a three-year contract signing.
“I walked out of there having signed the contract for three years scratching my head.”
@ 01h 03m 15s
October 12, 2025
Memorable Wigan Experience
Despite its flaws, Wigan holds a special place in the speaker's heart due to its people.
“Wigan's a hole, but the people are amazing.”
@ 01h 14m 19s
October 12, 2025
Legacy and Identity
Reflecting on his legacy, he hopes to be remembered as a good player and a nice guy.
“Just that he was a good running player. I’m a nice guy.”
@ 01h 22m 19s
October 12, 2025
Emotional Growth
He discusses becoming more emotional with age, especially when watching sad movies.
“I get a tear to the eye quite easily these days watching some of the stuff on TV.”
@ 01h 35m 15s
October 12, 2025
Thoughts on Retirement
Retirement at 65 feels young; he’s ready to find new reasons to get up.
“I’ll find plenty of reasons. It’s not a problem.”
@ 01h 39m 47s
October 12, 2025

Episode Quotes

Key Moments

First All Blacks Call29:16
Drop Kick Success31:35
Drinking Culture39:00
Hamburger Challenge45:27
Wigan Memories1:14:19
Retirement Talk1:39:47
Grandparenting Perks1:41:45
Pride in Life1:44:16

Words per Minute Over Time

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