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Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New
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Zealand, it all comes from here. That's Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that
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for days. That's the boys who got the hole in one in to Hey Finn, how's the performance going?
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>> Top tier. >> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
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helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in here, Finn. Maximize. Generate. putting performance
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first. >> Fanobotica, the Croatian sensation, welcome to my podcast. >> Thanks, Tom. Glad to be here.
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>> Do you um you asked me just before we started recording um what the what the
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ground rules were for language on the podcast, which What do you want to say exactly?
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>> Well, um sometimes I put my foot in my mouth and and say things I shouldn't
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say. So, um, now it doesn't matter, does it? So, >> no, it sure doesn't. So, the Croatian
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sensation, that's one of your nicknames. Any other nicknames? Any other good?
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>> I didn't know that was one, actually, to be fair. No. Um, bots, skinny.
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>> Um, black. Oh, no. I can't say that. >> You can. I can't.
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>> Yeah, I black ass, I suppose. >> Um, the Croatian sensation, not a
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nickname. I thought that was your nickname in um, Wigan. Um, no. No. I don't know where that came from.
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>> You never heard that before. >> No. >> All right. It's a good one though. It
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makes you sound like a >> Maybe I was. I don't know. >> So, um, Fredo Bodica, I I've done some
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facteing. Let's see if I've got this right. So, you played in four black
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jerseys. The All Blacks, um, the Kiwis, the Moldi, and the Sevens. >> Yep.
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>> Yep. Um, you also played rugby for Croatia. >> Yes, I did. >> What else? Um, coached Fiji?
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Nope. >> Didn't you do some coaching for Fiji for the 2015 World Cup? >> No. No. Oh. Oh, yeah. I went actually I
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came >> actually Yeah, I forgot about it. >> I came in I came in as a guest for a
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guest appearance with the help with the backs and some kicking. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, I forgot but that was only
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a you know a one a one day wonder, >> right? Um an incredible career too. 18
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year 18 year career. Yeah, it's uh the body has felt that you know I've been
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through a few operations after since I finished and >> and that but yeah it was a it was either
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that mate or go to work and so I was trying to prolong the go to work as much as long as I could. So at the detriment
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of my body. Yeah, I want to get into all of that because um I I can't imagine
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that transition part's easy like going from being, you know, such a such a a
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player um and then having to like you return to like normal life. But we we'll
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get into that later because it's got to be a huge a huge adjustment piece. Um
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but yeah, what are you doing now? You're a real estate agent. >> Real estate agent. Yep. For Bailey's up
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in Odia. Yep. So uh um start with with the Odia branch on uh on Monday. So looking forward to that. I live up in
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Gulf Harour, so the office is nice and handy. >> You still get um recognized quite a bit
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or you when people see your name on real estate signs, they get they get a little
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bit excited. >> The older generation, yeah, the younger ones go, "Who the hell is this for?"
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>> Is that Is that quite nice though, sort of being a little bit anonymous or
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>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't mind it at all. Doesn't bother me whatsoever, you know.
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Mhm. >> Um but yeah, I still get a lot of the older generation saying hello and and
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and funny funnily enough in uh up in Gulf Harour, there's about I don't know 20 or
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30 Wiganers who live there and they all know who I am. They used to come some of
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them used to be at my uh at the games when when they were kids and now they're
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adults. >> So yeah, so that was interesting. >> Yeah, cuz that's a that's a big part of
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your story. We'll get into that. So you played for the All Blacks, then you went
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to and played for Wigan for five years and you were like a legend over there. The Croatian sensation apparently first
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first player fastest player to score a thousand points. >> Yep. Yep. >> Yeah. So you're a big deal.
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>> Yeah, it was. Yeah, it's uh >> when I got to Wigan, it was um it was a
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team full of superstars. It was a team full of internationals. There was 12 internationals in that team. So I had to
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sort of try and figure out how I can be different and try and make the team in the one spot that they didn't have an
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international. So and that was on the wing. So um I figured out very quickly that I had to learn to kick better than
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I I was kicking. >> But you were one of the best in the world right at kicking.
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>> I I was um but I wasn't when I arrived. I was um obviously second string in the
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abs because Foxy was a lot a heck of a lot better than I was goal kicking and tactically kicking. So um
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>> I didn't put as much time and effort in practicing because I was thought to
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myself, well man, I'm not going to beat Foxy, so >> why bother trying? You know, which is a
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bit of a negative >> defeist attitude. >> It was a defeist attitude. Definitely.
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Definitely. But um um I learned from that and and figured out that I didn't want to the same thing to happen again.
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So >> best I practice. >> Man, I'm so excited to have you here. There's like just from that answer you
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gave there like there's there's so much to um dig into around that. I've
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actually got um an old teammate of yours, Warren Gatlin, coming up for a podcast in a couple of days. And I I
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obviously I was prepping for this interview and I was prepping for Gats at the same time. And there's parallels
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with you two, like you you you spent your all black career in the shadows of Grant Fox. He spent his all black career
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in the shadows of Fitzy. >> Fits. Yeah. >> So you two were just were always on the bench or or dirty
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duties. >> What's a dirty dirty? >> Um well, back in the day, we used to um
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have dirty duties. So they they're the guys who aren't sitting on the bench or
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playing. And your job was to go out and see where all the bars were for after the game. It was a tough job, but we had
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to go out and and someone had to do it. So, and we also had um we also had to sell some tickets for pocket money for
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the team. Um so, we'd go around trying to sell some of our um our allocated lot
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of tickets. So, which was tough work, man. >> Was that Was it tough work? >> Well, it's tough work. If you had if you
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hadn't sold them all um by the time the game started, you were out the front
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before the game. finding anyone who was looking for tickets. So, >> oh my god, this is so amateur. E, it's
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crazy, >> mate. It was it was crazy. Yeah. But those are the things we had to do to to
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get some extra money in the coffers for for the boys, you know. So, >> why were you called dirty dirties? What
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What does that mean? >> I don't know. I don't know where it came from, mate. Just Well, because you're so
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low ranked, you're down by in the dirt, I suppose, cuz you're not in the team.
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You're not on the bench. So you might as well just go down in the dirt and do
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whatever you you have to do. And I suppose I know we were on a Saturday morning before the game or a Wednesday
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on in the on the big tours, we um had to get up and go and train and it was normally a flogging cuz we'd had a
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couple of beers the night before and we had to sweat that out. So So we did. Yeah. So
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>> um how's your health? Well, you uh you were telling me just before you had a stroke
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last year, but you you pulled up to the Pod Lab Studios today and there's um
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there's like a trades entrance and you you were quite prepared to climb up there. So, you're obviously still in
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good nick. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a health and safety issue. Actually, you need to put
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some signs up there, mate. I actually thought, [ __ ] what's wrong with these
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guys? They're cheap, man. They haven't even got a ladder. I got to stand on the
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seat and then jump in the door. Like, >> yeah. >> Next one. Are you 60
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>> 62? >> 62. Yeah. You're in good shape. How's the body? >> Um, apart from this the stroke I had,
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um, yeah, it's getting better. Getting better. You know, I try to stay healthy
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and fit. Uh, but I suppose sometimes there are certain underlying health things that you don't know about and
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they creep up on you if you're not staying on top of it. So, and I thought I was on top of it. Um, but I missed
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something. So, >> was that terrifying? >> Um, it was to start with. Yep. Yep. But
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um I've I've learned to I mean look it it I lost a little bit of vision in my peripheral but um other
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than that um it's not too bad. Had a few little operations on on the heart but
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again nothing serious just in one day out the same day. So um yeah starting to feel really good.
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>> Um and and hopefully just it'll get better from here. >> Did you have to make any significant
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lifestyle changes or anything? >> Um yeah, mainly just training. Um my my sport um for the last 20 years has been
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been outrigger canoeing wak arama and I used to you know I'd be getting up at 5
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4:30 every Tuesday Thursday morning and and and going to the Takapuna beach and and and with a group of guys and
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paddling every morning you know so to stop that and I've stopped I stopped it
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a year ago that's been pretty tough probably just because of I'm used to
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doing something in a team sport. I hate training by myself. That's why I enjoy
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the uh the six man outriggers. >> I think that paints a picture of the sort of the sort of guy you are and the
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sort of life you're living now. Like you're obviously very disciplined. Um
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yeah, quite I mean to get up at 4:30 in the morning twice a week. >> Yeah. Something like like exercise or
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sport then yeah I'll get up I'll get up early. I mean, I I love watching sport
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on TV, but obviously the MS doesn't like all the rugby and and the golf I watch
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and the cycling, so I've got to get up early sometimes just to fast forward it
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all and get through it before she gets up. So, >> there's so much sport, eh?
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>> It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. >> Um, yeah, you you mentioned your MS just
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then. Just before we started recording, you told me you're engaged. I said, "Congratulations." Um, you told me not
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to get too excited because you've been engaged for like 14 years. >> 14. How does that happen? I know.
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>> How do you get engaged and then manage to avoid a wedding? >> Oh, well, look, um, everything's going
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along nicely. Uh, Anna is is is not that fussed about, um, getting married at the moment, I
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suppose, and obviously uh, things cost a lot of money these days. So, so we're happy.
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Are you are you enjoying this this age and stage of life that you're at now and
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in your early 60s? A granddad? >> Yeah, I'm a granddad. Uh unfortunately,
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my grandkids live two live over in um in France and and the other five are in the Hawks Bay. So,
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I don't see as much of them um as as I would like. Um but then so in saying that when the five from the Hawks Bay
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come up after two days I'm like holy [ __ ] You can go and help. >> Yeah. But no it's it's good being a
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grandad. >> Yeah. Well that's cool. Well let's go let's go back to the uh the early years
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and we'll paint a picture of um who body. So you're from Mangakino. >> Yep. Born mangakino.
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>> Yeah. Um Willie Apiata is from there too. Do you know Willie Apiata, the
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Victoria Cross winner? >> No, mate. I >> I wish I did in case I was in trouble.
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But um >> I heard I heard him in an interview talk about being from um um Mangakino. And I
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wondered if you could sort of resonate with this like with the success that he's enjoy enjoyed in his life. He's
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like, "Oh, you know, a small small moldy boy from Mangino." >> Do you do you feel the same way like um
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that you know, are you punched above your weight like being from such a small sort of place? Um my dad was down that
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way working. Um and and fortunately or unfortunately um we I left there when I was young like
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a year old or something or 6 months old I can't remember. Um and moved up to
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Oakland so um I didn't really can't really remember anything of of those
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times but >> certainly glad that I was born down that way I suppose. >> Yeah. And uh you see you're part
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Croatian, part Maldi. >> Yeah. >> So the Frano that's um the Croatian word
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for Francis. >> Frank. >> Frank. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So who who's who on your on your parents
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side? >> My um uh my dad's uh father is a was creation from um Kchilla in uh which is just a little
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island off to Brvnik. So beautiful little part of the world >> and everyone seems to go there now for
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holidays and the the the Croatian coastline is beautiful. So >> Oh, it's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. I've
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been to the old town of De Brvnik and Split and Havar. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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>> Everyone everyone does sailed Croatia. Are are you are you quite connected with
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um with with your cultures? >> No, not so much. No. Um having lived overseas a fair bit um yeah. No, I I not
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as much as I've I would have liked. I you know, I can't speak today. I I can't
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speak Croatian. Um which I wish I could. Um the unfortunate thing about when we were growing up is that the my
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grandfather didn't want to teach my dad and and the rest of my uncles and aunties Croatian
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because he said, "You're never going to go back there." because obviously he was
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over here just after the war um the first world war and so so they didn't learn it at all. He wouldn't
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speak it so which is a shame. >> Yeah. >> Not that it's something that you sort of
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had a choice in but is it a regret of yours? >> Yeah, definitely. Definitely
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>> more so um to um but again living overseas a lot it's pretty hard to pick
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it up. >> Um my sister is is is is has been learning it for the last two or three
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years. So that's great to see. >> But no, not me. >> Too old to learn. I'm like I'm like it
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was so hard at school just I was I was one of those pupils who was there to play rugby and and do other sports and
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that was it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So >> well it worked out all right for you in
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the end. What what are your earliest memories and particularly your earliest um rugby memories?
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>> You're a league family. E >> Union >> Union family >> Union family. Union family. Um, first
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memories, um, first memories are going to to Northshore Rugby Club with my dad. Um, he used to use me as an excuse on
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the weekends for getting home late. Uh, thinking telling mom that I was playing with all the kids out on the on the
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field, which I was, but only because he was still inside having a beer, you know. And back in those days, you can
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imagine that, you know, the the drink driving rules were quite a little bit more relaxed. So, so yeah, is going down
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there watching uh watching those guys play and run around and and and always wanting to be one of them one day. Um,
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and it got started because I lived in Glenfield. Uh I went to the Glenfield Rugby Club and my memories of
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uh like uh bun fights after, you know, at the end of the season uh playing rugby with with all my mates in the air
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in the in and around the streets we lived and jumping in um their father's parala and because we were dirty,
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there's five of us in his boot, you know, and we thought it was Hey, you know, you
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Oh, we can jump in the boot. Yeah. So, you probably not get away with that these days, but we enjoyed it back
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then. >> Yeah. Yeah. These um these are great memories. They haven't aged particularly
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well though over the last 50 odd years. >> Yeah, I've got similar memories. Were
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you Were you a good kid? Were you Did you get in much trouble as a kid? >> No. No. I was I was I think I was a
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pretty good kid. Yeah. I think I um I did probably pick up a bit of a few things like um I got my speed from my
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dad and um not because not because of of that he had it because he was a prop although he'll tell me that he used to
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be a 10 once and he was pretty quick. I'm like a year radio. Um but because I
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was um always got in trouble and I had to get out of the house before he got hold of me and gave me hiding
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a justified kick up the backside, you know. So I used to sprint out across the balcony, hurdle a fence without him
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without touching it and he wasn't hurdling no fence and those and I just stand on the other side till he calmed
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down. Unfortunately, he's got a long memory. So, although he'd calmed down, I still
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got to boot up the ass and your usual sort of back in those days, you know. >> Yeah. And what about the uh the goal
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kicking? Where did that start? Why did that start? >> Uh I think it's it started really when I
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was um probably doing it part-time at Westlake Boys when I was in the first 15 there. Um, and
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from then on it was just like a um it wasn't a passion to be a goal kicker because I didn't want to be a
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goal kicker. Um, but it was um there was no one else really to do it back in those days. There was a couple
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of other guys I think uh remember Billy Balden the um >> the cricket umpire?
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>> Cricket umpire. Well, he was in the first 15 with me as well. In fact, he
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was 10, I think, and I was 12. And he he used to I think he used to think he was
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better than me. >> Amazing. He's one of the most flamboyant and animated cricket umpires.
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>> He was a bit like that when we were at school, too. Bit of a strange dude. I
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mean, he's a friend of mine as well. But I mean, I'm like, he's bit strange. But
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>> you can say that if you're friends of But you were you were really really
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good. Everyone talked about your technique and how good you were. Was it was it like our natural talent or was it
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just like 10,000 hours of practice outside on your own or >> um to start with before I got to Wigan
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it was just on a Friday before a game. Um and then I was either really good or really bad
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and every now and then in the middle, you know what I mean? So it was it was because I hadn't done didn't really
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practice you know and because Foxy was around it just meant that I mean I did it for North Harbor
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when North Harbor split in 85 and and was reasonable at at that level but I again I just didn't if you remember
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North Harour back in the day all we did was throw the ball around >> you know so even inside our own 22
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behind our line we used to throw it around a lot So really wanted to score more tries and kick kick the goals. They
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were a bonus but between myself and uh and uh um Paul Feny. Um we used to share the kicking so and a few other players
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along the way. Um, so I didn't really get into that, like I say, until I got
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to Wigan in in a more serious um, vein and trying to try to figure out again how I could make that team, you
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know. So, because I wasn't it was being on the wing and wigan and I'd never
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played wing before, but didn't look that hard. Didn't have didn't have to think
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too much, you know, like just get the ball and run, center set you up, that sort of thing. Um, and we had some
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pretty good centers there. Um, and yeah, so that's how it all started slowly.
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>> So, a lot of it was natural cuz I've had Grant Fox on the podcast and he he
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talked about practicing for hours and hours every spare minute on on his farm growing up.
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>> We all know the Dan Carter story like there was some rugby goalposts in the
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the in the the front yard of their house, which he he practiced until dark until his parents called him in for
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dinner. Not the same. Not the same for you. >> Yeah. No, no, no. This is a This is a
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real flex. >> No, I had a We had a backyard, but no post on it. We used to play cricket
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and break the window. So, there's no way I'm kicking a rugby ball to break a
00:21:08
window because I'll get in trouble. So, >> so no, but I mean, I became good at goal
00:21:15
kicking because I I did what those guys did, but I just did it a lot later, you know.
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>> Incredible. Can >> Can you watch kickers now without analyzing them? Like if you're watching
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a game when you >> I will I will. Yeah, I do. I do. I do. I watch I don't I don't mean to. If it if
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they zoom in and it's right the camera's right behind them and they're in the
00:21:41
corner and there's kicking, then I'll I'll analyze them, >> see what they're doing wrong or or how
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they do it and it works. And and that's because there'll be a fundamental thing
00:21:53
that everyone does. You might have a different styles, but there's something
00:21:57
that you do which is we all sort of do. >> Can you can you elaborate on that? Cuz
00:22:02
like to me, I see someone kicking it. Everyone looks the same to me. I don't
00:22:05
know what I'm looking for. Like what are you looking at? What are you >> I'm just looking at at at whether
00:22:10
they've got a follow through with their body. um whether um even if they stop
00:22:15
their body's still pointing at the towards the post >> or at the middle towards the middle of
00:22:20
the post. Um um and so I can sort of figure out from there whether they've you know their legs their legs come
00:22:31
across or they move their body offline and and so the ball goes where the the body goes. Um, some I don't bother with
00:22:40
because they whatever they're doing it works really well and they it's generally the guys who do the big um
00:22:47
like Thirsten used to do. um he he'd just curl it in from you know from the sidelines and everything and
00:22:55
I'm like I'm gonna bother watching because because if someone's got a style
00:22:59
and it works for them and it's got and it's goes against everything I'm oh I I
00:23:05
I was practicing then don't change >> you know don't change >> there's a saying in in golf it's not
00:23:12
it's not how it's how many and I suppose it's the same with goal kicking if it
00:23:16
works who um >> yeah what what what do you think have like players that have like really
00:23:21
really unique individual styles like Johnny Wilkinson springs to mind. Um Damen McKenzie with the smirk.
00:23:27
>> Oh yeah. >> Oh, each to their own. You know, if it if it works for if it works for you,
00:23:34
then keep doing it. But if it doesn't work, then >> get rid of the smirk if that's if it's
00:23:40
if he's I mean, he's gigging fine. But if he doesn't get rid of something, you
00:23:44
know, whatever that is, you know, just change change something cuz you know, like my boys kick as well and I was just
00:23:52
speaking to him on the way um Ben who's in France on the way here and he's
00:23:57
changed his slightly um to the same sort of way that Ramos kicks for the French team. He he's had to change a few
00:24:05
things. So, um, you know, you generally speaking, if you've got a a style and
00:24:12
you don't want to change it too much, uh, the problem you have is is if you train
00:24:19
too much, you'll it's a good way to pick up bad habits. Mhm. >> So, for example, uh I was it it took me
00:24:28
two months to get of of training six days a week, doing the same routine over and over and over again to get good at
00:24:35
it. After that, I only trained once a week and that's the the night or two days before the game and that was it. If
00:24:46
it was too wet and rainy and windy, I wouldn't practice. I'd go and kick it in a into a
00:24:53
net >> and just get timing. Whereas some guys will go out and kick hundreds and hundreds of balls and and
00:25:03
you can just pick up pick up bad habits or get injuries, you know. So, a little thing that I used to do was if
00:25:11
I did 10, 15, 20 kicks, then I would also in between just swing my left leg the other way pretending I'm kicking a
00:25:22
goal just to try and balance balance the body up, you know, rather than just going that way all the time. Just
00:25:30
>> because it might be I might end up pulling something whether it's a hemi or
00:25:34
whatever, you know. Who who have who who are your favorite all black players of recent years in that position? So like
00:25:40
Dan, >> Richie Mo, >> Dan um um Moa, >> I really like the way he plays. He's
00:25:50
really good. Um, and that's yeah, I mean I there's there's some good tens around, but I
00:25:57
just follow the All Blacks and >> although they have been quite it's been
00:26:02
quite tough uh last couple of games, you know. >> And do do any of the current players
00:26:07
like reach out to you to pick your brains? >> N look, there's so many uh there's so
00:26:12
many really good kickers in the game that I don't they don't need to see me.
00:26:19
Whoever's who whoever's closest to age of the like Bod and them, they might
00:26:25
speak to Dan. I don't know. >> But they've got plenty of people around
00:26:28
them. >> Half the time I think that most teams have a kicking coach or >> as well as a a coach for every other
00:26:36
thing, you know. >> Yeah, it's different now. E I um It's crazy. I I've got a I've got a by the
00:26:42
time this this podcast comes out, this one's well and truly going to be out,
00:26:44
but I caught up with Lorie Mains a couple of weeks ago. >> Oh, yeah. Um, so it was him and Earl
00:26:48
Curtain and that was that was basically it in terms of the coaching team. And now, yeah, now there's just so many
00:26:54
coaches, isn't there? >> Yeah. Sometimes you look at it and go, man, this you don't need that. Surely
00:26:58
you don't need that many. You know, you can outsource some if you're trying to
00:27:02
save money or you know what, it's like mate. There's a bus the bus for the management
00:27:08
and coaches and then there's a bus for two buses for the players, you know, or
00:27:13
bus for the players. So yeah, it's a bit Yeah, I mean everyone's doing it. So,
00:27:19
>> but it doesn't mean you have to follow everyone and do the same thing, but
00:27:24
>> do you do you think you would have performed better as a player and with in
00:27:27
in the environment today like with all the information and >> Oh, I would have I would have because um
00:27:34
because I wouldn't have been working, >> you know. >> Yeah, >> it's it's completely different. So, you
00:27:40
know, we had to we had to find a time in the day to to train or do extra training. And I was um at one point I
00:27:49
was a courier driver, you know, so for New Zealand couriers out at um Carbine Road in Mount Wellington and I had to
00:27:58
like go for runs around the Pame Basin a couple of times at at at lunchtime because that's all the time I had. And
00:28:06
then I just grab some sandwiches and a drink, jump change my shirt, jump back in the in the van and
00:28:13
toodle on off again, you know. So, >> so it's completely different when you're
00:28:18
fully professional and you don't have to work and, you know, and I sort of I got
00:28:23
I I got the tail end of that in the rugby union when I was about to retire and and played a couple of more years,
00:28:30
which was good, but then by that time the body was starting to slow down. Yeah, I I love hearing these um stories
00:28:38
about the the amateur era. It's just like a completely different time. We're
00:28:41
going to get to the um yeah 87 World Cup soon, but you look at the team, there was you know Sir John Kerwin who's a
00:28:47
butcher. There were builders on the team, farmers, >> you a courier as you just said. Um,
00:28:54
yeah, it's crazy. Just different different time, eh? >> Definitely. Definitely. Especially those
00:28:59
farmers. Stay away from them if uh if you piss them off. >> What do you mean?
00:29:06
>> They going to they give you one warning and then they'll punch you.
00:29:11
>> Yeah. So, um 1986, that's when you um made the All Black Squad for the first
00:29:16
time. >> What are your recollections of that? Was it um was it like a TV announcement? Did
00:29:20
you get a call from who was the coach? Oh, Brian Lore. >> Brian Lahore. Yeah,
00:29:25
>> Sir Brian Lore. Did you get a phone call? Is it on the radio? >> No, it was on the radio, I think.
00:29:29
>> [ __ ] Yeah, we were in fact um yeah, back in those days it was on the radio and I remember one time I can't
00:29:36
remember whether it was the one um in ' 86, but you we were training with North
00:29:42
Harbor um on the Sunday and we were running around and then someone said, "Oh, it's 10:00."
00:29:51
and they'd come out with a radio and we'd be standing there waiting to see if we're in or not, you
00:29:56
know, and then if your name came up, we go, "Yeah." And then the coach would go,
00:30:02
"Yeah, get on the line. It's not going to work." >> Back to work.
00:30:07
>> So, were you were you is that like a core memory for you making the All
00:30:10
Blacks for the first? Were you expected to make the >> Yeah. Um, >> yeah. Yeah, I was I knew I had a shot
00:30:17
because all the Cavaliers had gone, you know, and they were in trouble. So So they got a slap on the wrist, which was
00:30:25
um um helped a lot of us back then. So was it helped like Fitzy was there and Mike Brewer and myself and and uh oh
00:30:35
just about the whole team, you know. So that's the opportunity that we all needed to sort of show what we can do.
00:30:42
Um and we ended up obviously beating the French which was great. Um it was a bit
00:30:48
daunting but you know because Blano was there and Laray and um some of their forwards were scary as hell. Um so it
00:30:58
was it was it was a tough day at the office and that man for man they were a lot better than us
00:31:03
>> but we played together better as a team and and you know we had some standout
00:31:09
performances. Obviously JK was was there and and yeah, we just we just did it as a team and and you know, I got
00:31:18
a few kicks in that game and some two drop kicks and I'd never done a drop kick before in my life, you know, cuz I
00:31:26
was a runner. I wasn't go Why would I drop kick? I'm just going to pretend to
00:31:30
drop kick and run, but I'm not going to drop kick. And then I ended up kicking
00:31:35
two of them. They were both ugly looking kicks, you know, but they went over, you
00:31:39
know. One was like wasn't even going on. I was floating around. It just drops
00:31:43
over. I'm going, "Oh, mate, I'll take that." And so, mate, funny funnily
00:31:48
enough, I never did another drop kick in my life cuz two from two, you know, that's a 100% record.
00:31:55
I'm not going to spoil that, mate. >> Don't want to ruin your legacy. Did
00:31:59
What? Did the um Did the team c Who was the team captain? Was that um Andy Dalton? No,
00:32:04
>> he was with the World Cup. He was the offfield, >> right, >> captain and and and David Kirk in the
00:32:09
World Cup. >> So why um what did the captain ask you to do the drop kicks or?
00:32:15
>> No, no, like an instinct thing. >> Just an instinct thing. I think I just
00:32:18
did it. >> And is that is that the French game? There's this this moment in um that's
00:32:22
like in New Zealand sporting folklore, you know, Buck Shelfford um having his um like scrotum ripped open.
00:32:29
>> Oh yeah, that was another French tour later on. Yeah, that you were there.
00:32:33
>> Yeah, I was. Yeah, I got I got smacked around as well. Yeah. >> Yeah. What's the What's the story with
00:32:39
Buck's testicle? >> Oh, you know, I was hanging out. It was not a pretty sight, I can tell you.
00:32:45
>> So, it got rucked open. >> He got rucked open and then he just he
00:32:50
just kept playing cuz he's cuz he's a tough either tough or stupid. And I'm
00:32:55
going to say tough because if I say stupid, he'll give me a slap. In fact, probably two years ago when I was co
00:33:02
three or three or four years ago when I was coaching Northshore Prims just off to the side there and and he came in
00:33:10
after I we' won a final or something and I I said something smart to him and he
00:33:14
whacked me around the ears freaking real hard, you know, like ears ringing. I'm
00:33:18
going and everyone in there went and they sort of what the hell just happened then they cracked up laughing
00:33:25
and I'm like ah I'm too old for you to do that [ __ ] anymore. He goes, "No, you're not. You're just a
00:33:33
cheeky little prick and you you'll get another one if you're not careful." I
00:33:37
went, "Oh, yeah. Sorry about that. [ __ ] and all the players are laughing at me and all that." So, yeah,
00:33:42
>> some things never change. >> So, the the So, the testicle thing, was
00:33:46
it a big thing at the time? Like a Oh, yeah. When the game finishes, is everyone in the team like outraged by it
00:33:51
or is it like like >> We were just like we just went, "What the hell just happened?" Um they we sort
00:33:58
of all all said they might they're on something these fers the forwards especially because they were crazy like
00:34:05
going down the tunnel you know you could see their eyes freaking bulging out some
00:34:10
of couple of them forwards were headbutting a concrete wall you know a bit of blood scing we going holy what
00:34:17
the hell's going on here and so yeah I got concussed I think a couple of times
00:34:22
or once and then just I carried on saying >> no HIA back then. >> No HIA back then. And yeah, then
00:34:30
obviously when Shelfford was in the showers, yeah, it was like you throw up or something. It was not a good sight.
00:34:39
But but I um we had a uh we the next morning we actually had a little session and
00:34:47
Shelfford comes down and he's got this big nappy thing on, you know, and I and so I thought to myself, "Oh, this is
00:34:56
a great time just to give it to him and have so yeah, I got smart to him and and
00:35:00
and you know, took the piss out of him and and he couldn't chase me cuz he couldn't
00:35:07
he could just barely walk. >> I hope for your sake he's he's too old
00:35:12
now to know what a podcast is cuz if he hears this, you're going to get another
00:35:15
smack around the ear. >> Get another smack here. He gave me a lift home last week actually when we
00:35:20
watched North Harbor. >> So, >> how is he? He's He's quite like I asked
00:35:24
him to go on the podcast maybe about a year ago and he said he he just not no interest in it. He's just all about his
00:35:28
grandkids now. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that'll be right. >> Yeah. No, he's not that interested in in
00:35:34
doing a lot of this stuff. So, >> they're great stories to share, though.
00:35:38
Like, it's um it's part of New Zealand history. So, it's an honor to have you
00:35:42
here today. It's really cool. >> Yeah, he's I mean, obviously, we used to
00:35:46
call him uh we used to we used to call him God, you know, basically um down the rugby club when he walked in or wherever
00:35:55
he walked in, we just North Harbor Rugby, we just drop to our knees and go, "Oh, buck shelf. God, we're not worthy."
00:36:03
And he'd whack us all as we were. Then we'd stand up. Then we stand. God, just
00:36:08
hit me. Yeah. You know >> why? Why was it just like a mana or a presence >> mana? Cuz he was just scary. Scary and
00:36:16
good and tough and his back was like he was whipped, you know. Um and yeah, when
00:36:23
he took his shirt off in the showers and all that, he did and he didn't care. And
00:36:26
he he he used to cheat. He said, "Yeah, I don't care. What's a ruck? It's not
00:36:32
that bad." And we're going, "You sure?" Cuz that looks sore, you know?
00:36:36
>> Oh, spring marks all over. >> Spring marks all over his back. Yeah.
00:36:39
And so, so, yeah. So, you sort of, yeah, we're we're scared of him. >> Yeah. I I appreciate you telling these
00:36:47
stories. Like there's there's a lot lot of stories out there about, you know,
00:36:50
say Colin Me for example. I feel like Buck Shelfford probably Yeah. deserves the same sort of kudos. The stories like
00:36:56
sort of what you're you're telling today. >> Um, your Kiwi folk hero. What were the
00:37:01
perks? You mentioned before you were um a courier at at the time. So what were the perks of being an all black in in
00:37:07
the amateur era? What did you get? Did you get like um per DMs? >> Yeah, we got per DMs. I think it was
00:37:12
like maybe I think it was like 20 something dollars a day or something. >> So it's [ __ ] money even at the time.
00:37:20
>> Yeah. And obvious and in in those days we had a we had a like you had a lot of
00:37:24
different groups of people and one was the card school. So we used to we used to most evenings when we were on tour um
00:37:34
or in a hotel we would play poker for you know like maximum of a dollar um blind and all that sort of stuff. So
00:37:45
yeah. So so that didn't last long if you lost. And then um yeah, you mentioned before
00:37:52
>> you mentioned before like being one of the the dirty dirties and how you'd have
00:37:56
to sell tickets for and what was that for? Like a team like a fund like a pool. >> Yeah, just team fund. Oh yeah,
00:38:01
>> just a team fund. Yeah. >> In case we wanted to have some extra beers and all that.
00:38:05
>> I mean on one tour we had um uh the breweries um when we went on went to go to
00:38:13
England, we had we had a Paladus Stiny Classics come with us. We we had in the hotels we'd have like a they'd take all
00:38:24
the alcohol and and drinks out of the fridges and put in some stein l you know cuz some some of these uh some
00:38:33
of those farmers we train in the morning they'd have a beer after training like
00:38:38
at lunch just just one but they just we're like mate it's only it's only
00:38:45
12:00 I um I asked Lori Mains. I said, "Who like who who drunk more? Uh the All
00:38:53
Blacks in the 70s when you were playing or the All Blacks in the ' 90s when you
00:38:56
were coaching?" And he he didn't even hesitate. He said, "The '9s all the
00:38:59
way." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was a real drinking culture at the time. E
00:39:03
>> It was a drinking culture. And And you know, you'd have your um even in the 80s when we were there,
00:39:09
like you'd have your uh your court sessions straight after after games. Um, and you know, you you get plastered
00:39:17
basically. >> Yeah. What happens at a court session? >> I know. You just have a judge,
00:39:22
couple of sidekicks, and then you just play stupid games. Yeah. So, it's uh >> So, you have you have to you you're made
00:39:32
to drink for like mistakes you made in the game or >> Oh, yeah. You Well, I mean, it's it's to
00:39:37
get together and have a sing a bit of a sing song, too. You know, we break it up
00:39:40
with a a song or or two. Um, and then we'd we'd have like any fines. Does did
00:39:46
anyone do something stupid? Um, and it might it won't be a free-for-all to start with, but the judges in them will
00:39:52
go, "Right, you guys who didn't score a trial, who scored a try, well, you can
00:39:57
drink for being a smartass tri, you know, it's it's it's stupid shit." Well,
00:40:03
we'll do a we'll do a um a speed round, >> you know, to see >> to see how quickly we can we can all
00:40:10
drink our bottle a bottle or a glass >> and then at the end we'll do another
00:40:15
one, see if we can beat it. >> Things like that. You know, there's plenty of stupid games
00:40:20
that you come up with and and and you know, if you got guys who have been at uh down in Otago, then those fellas,
00:40:28
>> they know every single every single drink >> drinking game you can imagine.
00:40:33
>> Yeah. All sorts of >> And they can drink more than anyone else generally.
00:40:37
>> Yeah. >> So, >> yeah. And this is like preones, preocial media, pre any of that stuff. Yeah.
00:40:43
>> What a golden time. Who were the who are your best and worst roommates? Who did
00:40:47
who who were you roommed with? Like Foxy or >> normally a half back? A halfback?
00:40:53
>> Yeah. So, um >> who was that? Kirk. >> Oh, no. No, no, cuz I wasn't. That would
00:41:01
have been him and Foxy probably. >> Yeah. Graeme Bishop I would be with sometimes.
00:41:08
Um >> but it would chop and change. But you like if I'm if I'm in the reserves then
00:41:13
you'll be with a reserve back. If I'm with a with a dirty duties and you'll
00:41:18
probably be in the dirty duties because you don't want to be coming home >> the night before a game and someone's
00:41:24
either playing or on the bench. >> So you all all your dirty duties are rooming together
00:41:31
>> basically. Um yeah. So um the worst one the worst ones are always the fords and
00:41:39
you're never put with a Ford. Thank god. Why are they the worst? >> Well, just cuz they are. They they they
00:41:48
get pushy and they [ __ ] you know, >> they think they're the boss cuz they're
00:41:53
a lot bigger. >> And generally they are because because they are. >> And and um the late Brian La Hoya's
00:42:00
coach, what was he like? Was he intimidating? Yeah, they're all Yeah, he was not so When you get to know him,
00:42:07
he's not he's a he's an awesome guy, you know. Um and and a very good coach, but
00:42:12
he um he was just like down to earth, quietly spoken. >> But then you get a Griswali, you know,
00:42:21
who was a good coach, but he was scary and um he loved the whiskey, you know. Um, Colum Me, we had I had Colin Me once
00:42:33
um and he was um it was in our under in a Colts trial team and I can't tell you what he said to us
00:42:42
when we first walked in, but we were scared that he when he walked in and when he said what he said, we were like,
00:42:48
"Oh shit." You know, and it was based on I I'll tell you as much as I can, but I
00:42:54
can't say the word. >> You You can, but it's a podcast. You can if you want.
00:42:58
>> Oh, no. I can't say this one. >> So it starts with C anyway >> and not
00:43:04
>> okay and and so he goes a if I uh if I look at you and I say oi siti um it's not because I hate you. It's
00:43:17
because I can't remember your [ __ ] name. Okay. And we're all [ __ ] Yeah. So yeah. And and what about what
00:43:29
about Grant Fox? Yeah, we sort of established earlier that your your career in the All Blacks was sort of um
00:43:33
in his in his shadow. What was it? He's he's super competitive. Like he when I
00:43:38
had him on the podcast like he told stories about the first time Ryan beat him in golf and they didn't talk for
00:43:43
like two or three days afterwards. Um so was he like supportive and nurturing or
00:43:49
did he see you as like a threat or an enemy? >> No, no, no. We got on we got on fine,
00:43:52
you know. Um um I >> Yeah. No, we I got we got them fine. Um I mean it's like uh you have you have
00:44:02
your playing team and then you have your forwards and your backs or sorry you have your squad then you have your
00:44:07
forward your backs then you have your um your clicks not click your your mates you hang around with all the time. So in
00:44:16
in in most of these teams you have a your different groups of guys you know. So we had um we had the Jeffers who were
00:44:26
the Oaklanders. Then we had the Brown brothers and the the Brown brothers who played for
00:44:34
Oakland were in the Brown brothers group, not the Jeffers group. And then you had your uh the farmers.
00:44:42
Then you had the real quiet guys who didn't mix and mingle too much. Um, so you had these different and then you had
00:44:50
the card school who were in some in in in multiple groups, you know, and those are the those are sort of the guys cuz I
00:44:58
mean the the the brown boys used to go and I don't know go to do stupid [ __ ]
00:45:05
and the other fells would be more sensible or >> what sort of stupid [ __ ] Oh man, we
00:45:11
just we could be bored. So I remember in Cardiff one year we were bored. So we decided to go and have a Oh, and um John
00:45:20
Gallagher, he was a token Brown brother. So um we used to we went on a um a hamburger eating crawl to see who could
00:45:29
eat the most hamburgers around Cardiff. Well, so we go into a one place, have a a
00:45:38
burger, go to the next place, McDonald's, and whatever. And yeah, and see who won. Well, we finished that and
00:45:44
we're all going, "Oh, whose idea was it? That was so stupid, you know."
00:45:51
>> Um, yeah. So, yeah, we just Yeah, some of the things you just you got to figure
00:45:58
out what what to do in your downtime, you know. M so >> just killing time.
00:46:03
>> Just killing time. >> So um the 1987 Rugby World Cup, you you were part of that squad. You didn't get
00:46:08
to play though. >> No, didn't get to play. Um which was disappointing. Um I thought I might get
00:46:13
one um game against one of the smaller teams >> like an Italy or something.
00:46:18
>> Yeah, like in Italy or something, but not but that was fine. Um we were there. Yeah, I didn't I I wanted
00:46:27
the a game, but I also wanted to be part of the team um and and a winning side, a winning team. So, I I
00:46:36
I did whatever I could off the field to make sure that like like the everyone else um to make sure that that
00:46:46
they were in the best position to win basically. So, >> so on reflection like do you do you feel
00:46:52
like a World Cup winner? >> Um, yep. I was part of it. Y I I definitely feel like a World Cup winner.
00:46:59
Yeah, definitely. >> Did you Cuz that was the I mean, we all know um what a big deal the World Cup is
00:47:04
now and how hard it is to win one of those things. Um this was the first one. What? Yeah. What was the hype like
00:47:09
beforehand? I I remember it vaguely, but I was like 13 14 at the time and it just
00:47:13
sort of came up out of nowhere and it's like, "Oh [ __ ] this is the rookie."
00:47:16
>> Yeah, the hype was was was pretty big. Um um we I remember we used to um Brian
00:47:22
Lort he took he took us around the smaller provinces for trainings and all that sort of stuff to get get everybody
00:47:32
feeling involved in the in the buildup to it. So So that was great. Um we were down the west coast uh sorry the east
00:47:41
coast down by uh over over in the wrapper bush. So, >> oh, is that where um were you billeted?
00:47:51
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's a crazy concept, eh? >> Oh, yeah. We were billeted and [ __ ]
00:47:56
was it. >> So, you like all the All Blacks at the time. Like, it's just hard to imagine
00:48:00
like today like Bone and Barrett staying at some random's house and >> Yeah.
00:48:04
>> in Maston, you know. >> Yeah. No, it was great. You know, we really enjoyed it. You know, it's like
00:48:10
sometimes you get bit sick of the hotel food anyway. But it was just nice to meet different
00:48:15
people around the place and it was yeah I mean it doesn't obviously when you
00:48:21
when you're growing up and going to school and going on school trips you're
00:48:24
always getting billeted anyway. So and even if you um with a club team sometimes you got billeted
00:48:31
um on a on a on a weekend with club trips. Yeah. >> So, you know, you you got used to it and
00:48:38
they felt part of part of the whole World Cup buildup, you know. So, >> so were you like staying in some You
00:48:45
like a spare room in someone's house or someone's sofa or >> No, no, we're in a I was in a bedroom,
00:48:51
but it was on the coast, but I can't remember where where in the it was. But, you know,
00:48:58
>> it's quite quite funny because Well, you're the Old Black, so I wouldn't
00:49:03
expect any of you guys to remember, but for the like the family that you stayed at, for them it's probably like a core
00:49:07
memory for life like >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Well, I mean, they would they would definitely
00:49:12
be going, man, that was we had an all black stage this year, but um >> yeah, and I wish I could remember it,
00:49:19
but I just few too many knocks in rugby, I suppose. I don't know. >> Yeah. How how is your um you mentioned
00:49:25
before the concussion against the French game? Did you Yeah. Are you okay now? There's a lot of lot of chat about
00:49:30
concussion and >> the ongoing effects of >> Fortunately, I'm I'm I'm fine at the
00:49:35
moment. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. I I mean I had the I had the stroke and and last year and I think
00:49:42
I've I just I probably can't remember things quite as well but I was wasn't
00:49:49
that great before the stroke. So you know >> so I'm not quite sure whether it was
00:49:56
I'm I'm 52 and I've never had a head knock in my life but I've I have trouble
00:50:00
remembering things as well. So a lot of that Yeah. A lot of it comes down to age. What would you say your like best
00:50:05
and worst experiences from your four years as an All Black? >> Best and worst. The best would
00:50:14
definitely be the the very first test against the French down in Christ Church without a doubt. You know, you'll always
00:50:21
remember your first one and especially against, you know, one of my heroes was >> Serge Blanco. And in 1981, I was
00:50:30
um I'd left I'd left uh school. Um I was playing for Northshore Rugby and I got
00:50:37
an opportunity. Um one of the players had married a French girl and he came to training one day and said, "I need a 10
00:50:45
and a seven to come to a little French rugby club um to play for a season." And
00:50:52
I'm like, "Uh, is it free?" because I got no money. And he goes, "Yeah, yeah,
00:50:58
they'll pay for your F here and they'll give you a a job." So I ended up going
00:51:02
over there, but it was a ski resort in the Pyrenees Mountains >> and it was beautiful. And and Serge
00:51:08
Blanco used to go there, you know. So I'd met Serge Blanco in a cafe having a
00:51:14
few drinks cuz all of the guys I knew um in the rugby team knew him because he was, you know, in the winter he'd come
00:51:22
down there a fair bit. Um, so I got to meet him there and and and and you know, sort of like a like
00:51:30
meeting Buck Shelford again, you know, going you I got a po per of you in my in my
00:51:38
bedroom back in New Zealand, you know, and so then to be playing my first game in the All Blacks when he's getting
00:51:45
towards the end of his career um was was amazing, you know, it was really good. very very uh excited to do that
00:51:56
>> and also a little scared because you know my hero I've watched him and he's
00:52:00
scored tries from behind his own post you know and scored tries and uh and I've got a I've got a you know
00:52:09
potentially I could be the last line of defense and he's in front of me. I'm
00:52:13
like then I gave myself a slap and said mate don't think negative like that you're going to beat these fellas in
00:52:19
here. So we ended up winning. >> So yeah. Yeah. What about um worst memories?
00:52:26
>> Worst memories? Just the injuries I've I've of I've I've had over the years. Um
00:52:32
had a couple of uh well, they're not serious, but they they hold you back a little bit, you know, like just little
00:52:40
um cartilage trims and those sorts of things in your knees. Um missing my the birth of a couple of
00:52:48
the kids as well. In fact, Foxy and I were on going on a tour when um his wife was pregnant and and mine
00:53:00
was pregnant and we both stayed back and we missed going to Canada. We never been
00:53:06
to Canada. Come on, babe. Hurry up. Can you have this baby? Anyway, we So, we missed out on that, but uh um we had to
00:53:15
leave anyway because the babies didn't come >> until we left. So, but but yeah, missing
00:53:21
missing some of the best of the kids is is is is probably one of them. >> That's that's really powerful.
00:53:31
>> Yeah, >> not that I'm mate. Well, I I have did watch one of them and I
00:53:40
nearly [ __ ] eggs were going like I'm going, "Oh [ __ ] take a seat." you
00:53:49
know. >> No, but you you can't be beating yourself too much about that because it
00:53:52
was just how it was at the time. E like it was >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's just the way it was
00:53:56
back in those days. So, >> so yeah. >> I mean, this is this is a time where
00:54:00
Yeah. Yeah. people Yeah. Michael Jones I got another worst one. Yeah. was was actually playing um we played a team
00:54:10
called Tukerman in the New Zealand Moldi team in Argentina and they they're at
00:54:15
the bottom of the Andes Mountains and they are renowned for fighting. And so when we got there, they said, "Oh, this
00:54:24
team's just come back from a two-year ban." We went, "What for?" They said,
00:54:31
"Fighting." And we went, "Really?" Yes. Anyway, we went out there, they kicked
00:54:38
off and all 15 of them came running in and started a fight. Now, we had we had uh Buck Shelfford, Hickory, um we had
00:54:48
the Frank Shelford, we had um the Brook brothers, you know, we had Steve McDall,
00:54:55
we had a Borovich, and they wanted to start a fight. Well, we didn't want to, but we had no
00:55:04
choice. And there was a fight for the whole game. Like that. It was ridiculous. There's one um one time when when you
00:55:15
sort of like a comedy show where I'm chasing, you're chasing someone and they
00:55:18
stop, you stop. Come on. Come on. And then they take off when you go to have a go. And then it was just like it was
00:55:24
terrible. And then the the game was called off five minutes before full time. because the crowd were getting wild and
00:55:32
and started throwing [ __ ] at us. So we had to stand in the middle of the field
00:55:37
until they ran out of ammunition. Then we had to walk to the sideline together in a line and there was there
00:55:46
was a cage but the cage only went 10 m and the sorry 5 m and the gap to get under there was 10 m. So we had 5 meters
00:55:57
of walking through like a corridor of angry locals who were hitting us with umbrellas and all sorts of [ __ ] So that
00:56:04
was the worst the worst scariest um experience we've had. We were under the under the grand stand and we were
00:56:13
looking for [ __ ] like weapons. Like there was some guys on barbecues. We were taking their their some forks or
00:56:21
freaking ripping some bits of wood off the freaking side of whatever. I don't
00:56:25
know. And and just so we had something cuz we we had to walk another 30 m out the back to the changing rooms and we're
00:56:33
thinking, man, we're going to die, you know, like we are seriously going to die. And the police had got around the
00:56:40
back and and blocked it all off. So, we had to grab our bags and jump straight in the in the bus and go back to the
00:56:48
hotel, which was we jumped in the bus and we were going, "Thank God the cops were in there
00:56:55
saying, "Boys, just put your heads down. Don't look." And and we'll get back to
00:57:00
the hotel. You don't tell a bus full of moldies. Don't look out the window. Must
00:57:05
we're out the window. [ __ ] you, too. and they're banging on the side of the bus and we're saying
00:57:13
driver, hurry up, run them over if they're in the way, you know, like so and then we were told not
00:57:20
to go out that night >> because you might not be found. So So no one went out. No one.
00:57:26
>> Unbelievable. Was the team banned again after that? >> Um I don't know. We don't care. We hope
00:57:30
so. Um they Yeah. I mean I I remember someone sent me a little clip of it. So I I went online to have a look and I saw
00:57:38
some of it and I was like man and then I above it it had like a some other team might have been South Africa or
00:57:44
something. So I pushed that and they're fighting too. I'm like geez. So it
00:57:50
wasn't just us. They just they are just crazy. So that was scary that >> Oh. So there's some video footage that
00:57:56
exists. I might have to try and hunt that out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So then um in uh Oh yeah, one more
00:58:02
question before we move on to your your league stuff which is like the second part of the Frenobotica story. So you
00:58:06
did you he was a teammate of yours, but did you ever play against the Iceman, Michael Jones?
00:58:11
>> What was he like to play against? >> Um I think I might have played against
00:58:14
him. Yeah, I did. When North Harbor in a in a Shield challenge? Um he was and I couldn't get away from him. Like I could
00:58:22
I just had to shovel the ball on and get out of the way cuz I could see him come
00:58:29
flying at me. And um he sort of knew where to where to go, where I would was potentially going to try and go. And
00:58:38
because he was so quick as well, he was he was just on top of you. So you didn't
00:58:42
have a choice. You only had one choice, and that's either pass it or I'm going
00:58:46
to I'm going to get you. And which I didn't chance my arm against him. >> What made him so good?
00:58:52
>> I don't know. It just sometimes you just got you're you are so talented and you
00:58:57
have this X factor and you can't quite put your finger on it, but he's he's
00:59:03
he's full of it, you know. He's got a X factor oozing out of him. And um obviously he's he was fit, he had
00:59:12
size, he was an athlete, a real athlete. Um and yeah, and just toughest opponent
00:59:20
to to play against like Yeah. toughest opponent to play against you >> and so nice and humble off the field as
00:59:29
well. >> I know. So quiet. >> It's like it's like an Inger as well,
00:59:33
you know? They're all They're all And they're all so quiet and humble and
00:59:37
really nice and then you get him on the field, >> I've had Kev Mama on the podcast. Same
00:59:45
sort of thing. >> Same sort of thing. like very quiet, humble, everyone's favorite player, but
00:59:50
a complete savage on the field. >> Yeah, you have sort of a you have your your alter ego, you know,
00:59:56
>> and I suppose you have well once you go on into battle, then you have to really.
01:00:02
>> So, >> yeah. So, 1990 um was the year you switched to league after four years and
01:00:08
seven tests as an all black. Was was that a tough decision? Was it was it based around money or was it frustration
01:00:14
of not getting enough game time? What was it? >> Um, it was based around money really and
01:00:20
and the fact that I I I couldn't sit again having that negative attitude towards kicking. I couldn't see myself
01:00:28
beating Foxy. So, I didn't want to I'd had enough of sitting on the bench. I
01:00:33
had enough of of the, you know, it used to cost me I got 20 I got 27 or 20 something dollars um a a week for
01:00:44
freaking incidentals um with the All Blacks cost me 100 bucks to pay for my the career driver,
01:00:52
>> a relief driver. >> A relief driver, you know. I'm like, mate, this is
01:00:56
>> Yeah. So I ended I yeah I basically I I said well it's time for me to find
01:01:03
something else >> and it was you know and it was random. It was I remember I was um we just
01:01:09
finished the all black tour of of the UK and we were stuck in London for a couple
01:01:15
two or three days and I couldn't be bothered having a look around. Well, I was going to look around London. Then I
01:01:21
just got a random phone call from the director of Wagan Rugby League, you know, said, "Mate, do you want to come
01:01:26
and have a look at playing for us?" Um, and I said, "Oh, mate." Well, first
01:01:34
of all, he said, "Do you know much about Wigan?" I said, "Oh, no. I think you're
01:01:37
red and white or something. I think I might have seen you on on TV playing Hulk Hulk or something." And uh he said,
01:01:46
"Do you want to come up?" I said, "Oh, mate." Cuz what I thought, "Oh, he wants
01:01:52
me to go up and have a look up there. He's going to take me out to a nice restaurant, champagne,
01:01:58
and then ask me if I want to sign, and I'll say no." But I'll take the trip up
01:02:02
there. I haven't been up there. I'll have some champagne, some nice food, and
01:02:05
then say no. How hard can that be? And I got nothing else to do. So, I jumped in
01:02:10
a train, went up there. Got there, it was it was freezing cold. There was like a misty rain which you you could see
01:02:18
about 20 feet in front of you and I um I was looking at it going man what a miserable hole. You can't even see the
01:02:26
place. Anyway, he didn't even pick me up but he he said just jump in a cab. I'll
01:02:31
sort out when you get here. Give him the the address. So I had the address. I gave it to him and um he said you sure
01:02:39
is that where you want to go? I said yeah. Oh okay. Anyway, 10 minutes later, we pull up outside this restaurant. Big
01:02:46
red and white sign. Kentucky Fried Chicken. I went Kentucky Fried Chicken, you cheap
01:02:56
bastard. Anyway, I went in there. Well, his his work was beside it, but we we went into KFC and
01:03:05
um we sat down there and uh he must have got some inside information that KFC was
01:03:10
my favorite food. Um cuz I walked out of there having signed the contract for three years scratching my head going,
01:03:17
"Man, what just happened?" >> How How much was it? >> How much was it?
01:03:22
>> Yeah. No, not not the KFC, the the contract. >> Oh, it was it in my eyes, I thought it
01:03:28
was really good cuz I hadn't seen that much money before in in one go. And um
01:03:33
unfortunately over time, I figured out that that wasn't that much compared to everyone
01:03:38
else. I mean, damn, I just I just got I just got I just got hammered for uh um for 3 years. I got to wait three years
01:03:47
now. So, >> um so it was not as much as the rest of them, that's for sure. I I mean the
01:03:53
second contract was a lot better. A lot better. But >> um but I didn't mind because
01:03:59
I it was more than I I'd got before. So So I was happy. Um yeah. >> And was it a controversial thing at the
01:04:06
time? Like I feel like it's fairly common now for people to switch codes like whether it's
01:04:11
>> Benji Marshall or RTS or whoever. But at the time it was >> like was it seen as like a controversial
01:04:17
sort of thing? >> It was but little did we know there was five of us thinking we were the first one
01:04:25
>> you know and we hadn't it hadn't been leaked out yet. So I think um I don't
01:04:31
know was it was it Reggie or might have been Reggie or John Shusta? One of them theirs leaked before mine. So I was like
01:04:42
I'm not first. >> They took the heat. >> They took the heat. So yeah. So then the
01:04:48
end there was you know there's a few of us who ended up ended up leaving. I think there's myself.
01:04:53
>> Oh John Gallagher ended up going to Leeds. Um John Schustster I think he went to
01:05:00
the Knights I think. Um there's uh there's a few others as well who went um so um so it was it wasn't
01:05:13
that hard to make that decision. >> Seems like a no-brainer to me but but it
01:05:19
you got to Yeah. And it's I mean it's very common now. You even have guys like
01:05:23
whether it's Richie Monga or whoever doing sbaticals in Japan, but at the time, yeah, it was it was sort of a big
01:05:28
deal. You were almost seen as disloyal in a way, weren't you? >> Yeah. I mean, these days you can bounce
01:05:33
from one to the other quite easily. And and it's great. And it's so, you know,
01:05:36
and so they should, >> you know, both professionals just like a job. >> So, you should be able to bounce from
01:05:42
one to the other without any problems, you know. >> Were you were you good with your money?
01:05:46
Like, did anyone teach you about financial literacy or anything? >> Not not not a lot. No. And you know,
01:05:53
made a couple of bad financial um decisions uh >> like buying dumb [ __ ] or just bad
01:06:01
investments. >> In a couple of investments that were were were I thought were good. a
01:06:08
restaurant a restaurant motel in with my uh with my uncle in Tonga which I thought was great
01:06:18
but not >> and um Lif a company called Lifestyle Sports um put some money into that as well
01:06:28
>> and it >> Yeah, a lot of people I remember Lifestyle Sport that was like a big
01:06:31
chain maybe before Rebel. >> Yeah, it was a big It was a chain then. Yeah. Yeah. And and so we we
01:06:39
the guys who who started it, they ended up um wanting to buy some of the franchises back. And so a few of us put
01:06:47
some money in to help with that. And we we ended up having a a flagship shop right beside McDonald's in Queen Street.
01:06:56
And it was the first one of the first shops that had back wall just all big big big screen
01:07:04
>> TV you know with sport on. So but yeah one thing and another happened and and
01:07:09
and both of those businesses were just has some money and and not really involved in it. So, so yeah, there was
01:07:19
some bad decisions, but you know, >> what was the the five years in Wigan?
01:07:24
What were they like? You were a big deal over there. Did you Did your ego ever get out of control?
01:07:28
>> Um, never. Never. Um, there was too many superstars in that team. Um, and if
01:07:34
anyone tried to put their head above the rest of us, >> everyone else would just all the senior
01:07:40
players would just have them. M >> Martin the Fire turned up one day and um
01:07:45
you know he was a new signing for us and I remember he uh he was walking around and like he was you know he was a man
01:07:54
and we got some new drinks and all that that which we never got before because he and we there well because he was
01:08:02
there and so he had a uh he had an interview after training and when he was in the shower they got the the boys the
01:08:10
senior boys got all his I threw them in the in the drink container. He said, "Mate, don't you think you're bigger
01:08:18
than the rest of us? Cuz you ain't, buddy." Oh, you didn't have to put my
01:08:22
clothes in. But yeah, and he and he was fine after that. >> Just team first, eh?
01:08:27
>> But team first, mate. Yeah. So, um Yeah. So, that was that. Yeah. >> Where did you feel um more at home? Did
01:08:38
you have a favorite team like what like between the Kiwis and the All Blacks? What was the difference between those
01:08:45
two teams? >> You're in a rare position. There's not many people that can answer that, right?
01:08:50
Not many people that play. >> There's a few. There's a few. Um League boys, I mean, we all have we all
01:08:57
like a drink. I think the league back in those days the league boys probably drank a bit more than the the Old
01:09:04
Blacks. I >> think Lion Red was the key sponsor, wasn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. It's the same
01:09:08
theme. Low and red and Steiny. Same same company. Uh yeah, it was um the the the
01:09:17
differences were although we were amateur, we were probably the All Blacks were probably um
01:09:25
seen more professional I think in as an organization >> probably because it was it had been so
01:09:31
for so long >> and our national sport >> and our national sport etc. for his
01:09:36
league. Well, like back in those days, there was there was just the win uh they had the Winfield Cup over in Aussie, but
01:09:43
we never had a a team in that competition. It was just our own local um league. So, um so that yeah, that
01:09:52
that was main the main thing, the professionalism >> and so was a bit bit of an eye opener,
01:09:59
but I mean I loved and enjoyed playing for the Kiwis. Um, again, we played when we beat the Australians in Melbourne,
01:10:07
that was a highlight of of of my career in the in the Kiwi jersey. >> Yeah. Who was in that team?
01:10:15
>> [ __ ] McCracken was in there. >> Sean Hoppy. >> Um, yeah, I think he was. Yeah. Mate,
01:10:23
honestly, >> Brent Todd, Reggie. >> No, Reggie wasn't. >> Is that later? Richie was he honestly
01:10:31
I'm I'm you've I'm wrecked my brain now. Richie Blackmore. Um um what's his name?
01:10:40
>> One of the some of the forwards I honestly pass. >> Um yeah. >> I'll blame I'll blame the stroke.
01:10:51
>> Well, there's like a lot of teams over a lot of years. Oh yeah. You mentioned
01:10:55
Winfield Cup before. So, Winfield Cup, that's pretty much like the NRL as we
01:10:59
know it now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't even know that might have been
01:11:02
that might have been. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Yeah. Sure. >> It's crazy. That's another another crazy
01:11:07
We talk about Lion Red and Steiner like Yeah. tobacco company sponsoring. >> So, you you you played um you weren't
01:11:13
there for the first game, but you played um for the Warriors in 1995, their very
01:11:17
first the debut season. >> Yeah. How was how was that jumping into that environment for the first year of
01:11:22
the Warriors? >> Yeah, it was good. I I came a little bit later because of I
01:11:26
>> I was just finishing off the season over in um over in the UK and well was
01:11:32
amazing. I mean obviously the hype, the crowds um the players that we had in that team um but I only lasted
01:11:43
four games and then I broke my leg. So that was uh very short and sharp. Um and and put me in a little bit of a of a
01:11:54
bind because I was I was going to go back to like I was going to play that first year and then probably go back to
01:12:00
Wigan. Um and I I hadn't signed the contract. I asked for a little bit bit more money. Um and they said yes, the
01:12:12
contract will come on. And this was on a Friday. the contract will be there on Monday and
01:12:17
then I broke my leg in the weekend. So was uh h thanks but we don't need you
01:12:23
anymore. So I had to go back. I was had to head back because of the we still had a house
01:12:30
there and um I was um I was didn't have a club. my insurance had run out while I was over here and I didn't
01:12:41
realize and um so I ended up going to Castleford in Yorkshire and and that cuz they were the only ones who would buy me
01:12:53
with a broken leg basically. So I just I just did a lot of rehab for six months and then six six months to
01:13:03
the day I was back playing. So, >> but it took a lot of lot of training and
01:13:08
and rehabbing and all that sort of stuff. >> How's how's your mental health through
01:13:13
through the stuff going on? >> Oh, yeah. It's all right. >> Yeah.
01:13:16
>> It um sometimes it gets me down a bit, >> but you know, um I'm I'm okay.
01:13:23
>> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> It must be Yeah. I can't imagine how
01:13:27
like stressful and um just the anxiety at the time. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. was definitely and and
01:13:33
you know um my partners was very good and still is. So, >> so, um, yeah, >> you looking back on your career, when
01:13:44
when do you think you were happiest? >> I'm always playing for the All Blacks, I
01:13:53
was happy. Um, you go through different stages in your life when you're starting
01:13:58
rugby, you have kids while you're playing rugby, you move to another country while you're playing rugby or
01:14:05
rugby league. Um, and and and all through those times you're happy where you are at at the m at the time
01:14:14
you know like I loved Wigan for example Wigan's a [ __ ] hole like it's a [ __ ]
01:14:19
hole bro um but the the the people are amazing friendly huge supporters last time I went back
01:14:32
there for example last year that there were people coming up asking for auto uh for to sign a photo and then these old
01:14:40
these older ladies and then they got another photo of me and them when they were young
01:14:45
>> and they've still got them. It's like I'm like, "Man, have you
01:14:49
>> you got guy's got nothing else or nothing better to I didn't say that, but
01:14:53
I'm going like I'm thinking, man, you you still got that photo of you and me
01:14:58
and you want another one?" And I'm like, I mean, yeah, no problem. But I'm like,
01:15:03
man, thanks. Thanks for remembering. You know, >> that's cool though, that you've had that
01:15:08
sort of impact on people. >> Um, yeah, it is. It is great. It is great. And you know it's
01:15:15
uh it's Wigan's in around all the football teams but it's in that area.
01:15:20
Wigan is strong. The club even the amateur club scene is pretty strong there. They their setup is is is better
01:15:29
than I think one of the best I've seen. There's nowhere in New Zealand who has a
01:15:34
setup better than them. >> Wow. >> You know. >> So yeah, they've got they got things
01:15:40
happening. So I loved it there. But I loved it there because I knew I was always coming back to New Zealand.
01:15:45
>> Then I went to Wales to Lenley. I really liked it down there too. They were
01:15:51
fanatical. They're crazy fanatical, especially beating the All Blacks once in this
01:15:59
the score still stays up on the board in between games, you know. Like you >> get over it.
01:16:07
>> Get over it, you know. So everywhere I I played in Italy um and lived in Italy
01:16:12
for a couple of years. Me and Mike Brewer played there. So again, love that little town and and everywhere you go,
01:16:20
we you you get a lot of good close friends. You know, you don't see them very often, but you know, I went back to
01:16:25
Wigan and and and bumped in some of the boys and and it was like like we're all
01:16:31
a bit older, but still the same sort of [ __ ] banter and all that sort of stuff, you know?
01:16:38
Do do you have like um like a like a like a games room or a man cave or an office at home? Like have you got any
01:16:44
memorabilia? You got you got anything hanging up? >> No, I did a little um um program on um
01:16:52
on on um it's called Pathfinders and part of that was to show some of the jerseys
01:16:58
that I had and that was the first time I'd open that thing for a long time. So
01:17:04
no, the answer is no. It's in a They're in big sto little storage bins, you
01:17:09
know, >> like system containers or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, they're about that big
01:17:13
and and they're full of of memorabilia and all that. I don't I have never put
01:17:18
them up in a in a property. Um but I have cuz my granddaughter was saw it and I had the box down there with the
01:17:27
jerseys. She had a quick look through it and saw one of the jerseys and tried to
01:17:31
take four or five of them and I said, "You can't take those." And she goes,
01:17:35
"Yeah, but we have to go and buy those. We have and they're expensive, those
01:17:40
rugby jerseys." And I'm like, "Oh, they're getting they're back in again,
01:17:44
you know, the old school." And that's and they're real good material and thick
01:17:49
and warm. And so I ended up giving her the Argentinian jersey. Wow. >> But she wanted my old black jerseys. I'm
01:17:55
thinking, "You're not No, no, no. Go away." >> So even though they're not on display,
01:18:01
they they clearly mean something to you. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're there. And I've
01:18:04
actually just I I got some of them out. I had to wash them a couple of times. Um
01:18:09
hang them out in the fresh air and and and and now I start wearing them over the
01:18:13
winter. I've been wearing >> actually Yeah, I wear the um I got the the the the
01:18:20
English bars, black and white top, but I got a French one. I've been wearing
01:18:26
French bars. One, I got a heap of them. I'm going, man, I should have started
01:18:31
wearing couple of them to be fair. A couple of them I can't fit. >> Got imagine turning up to an open home
01:18:40
in Foasic there wearing like an old rugby jersey. >> Oh yeah. Well, I'd get dressed up a bit
01:18:45
more. >> Yeah. Yeah. You You've got no um Yeah, they clearly mean a lot to you. The fact
01:18:49
that you've still got them in the they've been stored carefully, but you
01:18:52
got no interest in displaying them or >> No, I mean the house is our house is we
01:18:58
got a nice house, but it's not enough room to Yeah. Like it would mean you'd
01:19:03
have you need I need I would need a bigger room than this, you know. >> It's it's not Yeah, I mean I might at
01:19:11
some stage, but at the moment they don't want to be sitting in there all the time
01:19:16
because they'll just disappear. >> But even if I give some away to the
01:19:20
grandkids, then at least they're getting used, you know, >> not not the all black.
01:19:25
>> Don't give them to the grandkids. There's um there's an Instagram page
01:19:28
called Jersey Hunter and uh I reckon you could get top dollar at Jersey Hunter. >> I'll write that down.
01:19:37
>> Well, otherwise you give them to the grandkids and they'll they'll be giving
01:19:39
them to Jersey Hunter. >> Yeah, I'll be I'll I'll be online. >> Hey.
01:19:43
>> Hey, that's mine. >> That's mine. Check. >> How many did you get like one all black
01:19:48
jersey per season or? >> Yeah, generally per game. >> Per game. Yeah, even back then.
01:19:53
>> Yeah. Um well not per maybe per series you used to get them and they used to
01:19:59
have big Stein logo things on them. Um so I have got a framed one of the World Cup one. So we all got it was great.
01:20:09
>> We all ended up getting one of those that and the second time we won the
01:20:13
World Cup which was >> 2011. >> Yeah. 2011. So >> fully framed with everybody's signature
01:20:22
on there. Um, so that was that was good. It was nice of them to do that. >> That's under the bed.
01:20:33
>> It's m It's about the second half the size of that window over there, mate.
01:20:39
>> It's funny. Like when whenever I have um like ex you know sports people on it, I
01:20:43
I like to ask them that because everyone's got like a different sort of answer. Like when I when I had Christian
01:20:46
Cullen on, he um he had his stored in boxes in the attic and a couple of years ago he was like, "What am I going to do
01:20:52
with them?" So now the kids wear them to school and they just wear them around.
01:20:56
>> There's everyone has like a different relationship, I guess, with their with
01:21:00
their jerseys. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, they were it was at some point sentimental, and
01:21:07
you had all these big grand ideas of putting them up somewhere, etc. Uh but there's so many of them. I mean, and
01:21:15
I've lost heaps of them. >> Like, yeah, the problem back in the day is you you go, "Oh, yeah. Someone who
01:21:22
owns a pub. Yeah, I'll give you that one." You know, you can have that one.
01:21:27
And now, um, you're like, "Man, that pub isn't there anymore. I wonder what
01:21:32
happened to my my jersey." Or you forget you forget who you gave them to, you
01:21:36
know? Um, I've got somebody found one up north and the guy's selling the pub. Oh,
01:21:44
up in Fare. I gave them a uh I gave them a uh I gave them a jersey and he's selling it and one of my mates
01:21:54
was up there and he they got talking about it and he's going to send it back
01:22:00
down to me. I was like, that's the first time that's happened. >> How good.
01:22:04
>> So, yeah. So that's that's nice of it. >> Um, what about leg? Do is legacy
01:22:09
something you think about much? Like when when people talk about Freno Bodica, what would you like them to say?
01:22:15
>> Um, oh mate, I got just that he was a a good running rug uh running player.
01:22:23
Um, I'm a nice guy, >> you know, that's that like just that's that's all that I would want them to
01:22:31
think. like in their mind they think, "Oh, running and scoring tries and whatever." So that's that's all really
01:22:41
>> nothing nothing any bigger than that. >> That second part's really cool. I think
01:22:46
that that's way more important. Eh, >> oh yeah, exactly. Um um how you are off
01:22:52
the field um and and how you are to other people is more important. >> Yeah. Are you a nice guy? Like are you
01:23:00
someone you'd want to have a beer with? >> Yep. I'm definitely a nice guy.
01:23:04
>> I doesn't think so. >> No, no, he doesn't. I don't mind, you
01:23:08
know, I don't mind talking to anybody really. Like if someone is is polite enough to or wants to come and say hello
01:23:15
to you than that. I don't have a problem with it. Um >> obviously some people
01:23:20
just go on and on and on and you get sick of that. But instead of being telling him to shut the hell up, you
01:23:27
just go, "Mate, love talking, but I've got to get over here." >> And you just do it politely, you know?
01:23:34
>> Yeah. >> As opposed to >> Yeah. You must find it especially
01:23:37
difficult in those drinking environments, I suppose, where mainly dudes of a certain age just want to talk
01:23:42
about >> Yeah. the glory days. >> Yeah. Well, there are. Yeah. Uh, like I
01:23:46
say, I give them a couple of minutes or if if I'm in no rush to do anything,
01:23:50
then I don't have a problem with sitting there talking [ __ ] for a while. >> Yeah.
01:23:56
>> Cuz it's I mean, it's it's >> they they've got good memories of it.
01:24:00
And you don't want to be an [ __ ] and >> Yeah. >> The last memory they have of you is
01:24:04
being a dick, >> you know? >> Well, it's a big moment for them, I
01:24:07
guess. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, they they a lot of people out there have been
01:24:14
following different rugby players, league players, you know, all their lives and and
01:24:20
sometimes they've never met one or or one of their favorites or or >> someone who just brings back a memory.
01:24:29
So, you know, you got to >> got to give them their um little bit of time. >> Oh. Oh, yeah. How was that adjustment to
01:24:39
um you know being a player for such a big part of your life and at such a high level to suddenly it not being there
01:24:44
anymore? Was that a hard transition for you? Was it hard navigating? >> It was pretty tough. Yeah, it was pretty
01:24:50
tough and uh I ended up Yeah. having a a marriage breakup at the same at the same time. So
01:25:01
yeah, got it was pretty tough for a few years, you know, and then getting into the workforce again was pretty tough. I
01:25:06
think these days they are they have the background staff and all that sort of stuff and other people to
01:25:15
help the younger guys through all that and and um financial advice etc. Um that's around a lot more than it
01:25:26
was back in my day. >> So yeah, >> you what um yeah you mentioned the
01:25:31
marriage break up there that that was before your current partner who you've
01:25:34
been engaged to for 14 years. One day, one day we're going to put a ring on it.
01:25:37
Um, but yeah. Do you think um yeah, part of the demise of that marriage was just
01:25:42
your adjustment from being a player to not being a player? >> Oh, yeah. Look, it was a probably a
01:25:48
number of things. I was um we just built a house in um out in Par and um not too close to the prison, but just in
01:25:59
case you're wondering, >> I believe the the sections right next door are very affordable.
01:26:04
>> They're very affordable. Yeah, big sights too. >> Terrible neighbors.
01:26:07
>> Um um yeah, big sight too. >> Um >> so where were we going with that one?
01:26:12
>> Oh yeah, I just wondered if um like the just from your your perspective like the
01:26:16
the mental adjustment to going from this exciting >> exhilarating like technical life of
01:26:21
being a player at the top level to >> suddenly just being a regular civilian
01:26:25
again. I wonder if that played played a part in the demise of the marriage. >> Yeah. No, no, that didn't. Um that was
01:26:30
my own that was my own fault. Um and and we also um because of the age of the kids, we brought them back to go to you
01:26:37
know to to to especially for the oldest to go to college back in New Zealand, not not overseas.
01:26:47
>> And so for that reason, I ended up going to France by myself and then they would
01:26:53
come over twice a twice in the season. So that was that was probably the worst thing. M
01:27:02
>> yeah it's a big distance isn't it? >> And that's how it started. So
01:27:06
>> yeah um what makes you feel most alive these days? >> Like I I I just wonder like
01:27:14
>> from the perspective of someone that's never never done anything too exciting
01:27:17
in his life. Like I can't imagine the exhilaration of like you know kicking matchwinning points in front of 50,000
01:27:23
people. And I just wonder what what brings you the same sort of happiness after that stops
01:27:27
>> in the sporting field just paddling. Um um otherwise just going down to our
01:27:35
local and and sitting in the sun having a a rosé or a beer or or a wine or something with the misses. Yeah, it's
01:27:44
good laugh. >> I think that's an exclusive Fabotica. He's a rosé man.
01:27:50
>> Actually, I I do I like in the summer I like rosé. I'd much rather have bubbles,
01:27:55
but I'm a I'm a bubbles snob. So if it ain't champagne then I ain't drinking
01:28:01
it. >> Imagine imagine in the late ' 80s being in the black changing room and passing
01:28:06
on the stone lager and waiting for a bottle of rosé. I didn't know what rose was back in
01:28:10
those days so it was all right, you know. >> Um so I feel like um in in your 60s it's
01:28:16
almost like um a reflective stage of life in a way. Um what what are you still working on as a man?
01:28:23
Um, like most men, um, communication, um, with my partner, I really need to work on that a lot more because, you
01:28:31
know, we sometimes we still just hold a few things in that that we we should probably get out. Um, and whether that's
01:28:38
through health, um, and trying to keep that private >> um, and not wanting to let anyone know
01:28:45
when when the best person to talk to is your your partner. >> So, yeah, I'm a I'm I'm not too good at
01:28:51
that. and and sharing information a bit sooner than than the day before that we're going to I forgot to tell you
01:29:02
where we're meant to be here tomorrow. >> I think um I think a lot of what you
01:29:08
talk about like it comes from a place of love. It's like I don't want to burden
01:29:11
her with this like I don't I you know but but really you're doing um the
01:29:15
relationship a disservice by not sharing it. the relationship a disservice and if
01:29:19
it goes on too much and it it can spiral down um and that's when when bad things
01:29:25
might start to happen to you. So um mentally. So yeah um yeah. So you just got to I've got and
01:29:34
I'm I'm I am hopeless and I just got to get better at it, you know, >> and um so that's really what I've I've
01:29:42
got to do. Um um yeah, but that's that's what I like doing, just having a quiet
01:29:49
drink. And >> yeah, >> don't get me wrong, once a year or twice a year, I don't mind going out with the
01:29:54
boys and having a >> not so quiet, >> but not not two days close beside each
01:29:59
other cuz it's a long recovery these days. >> Oh my god. Isn't it? Yeah. The 4-day
01:30:05
hangover. What the [ __ ] is that? >> I know. I know. It's like [ __ ] I mean,
01:30:08
I get up and I jump on my bike, wind trainer, and I just put a a jacket on and just I can put the bike in the sun
01:30:17
and just pedal uh pedal pedal until I can I start sweating >> um and get some of the alcohol out, but
01:30:24
but it's Yeah, it's it's there's big gaps in between there. >> It seems like you got some really good
01:30:29
um male mates like and and old teammates that you can um shoot the [ __ ] with. Um,
01:30:35
yeah. Are are you good with the vulnerability piece with with malemates? Like if if you're not feeling 100%. I
01:30:42
bring this up one of your one of your teammates in the late 80s um and also in the 90s actually at um the Warriors, Sir
01:30:49
John Kerwin, who has probably done more for men's mental health in New Zealand
01:30:53
than anyone. >> Yeah. Yeah, he definitely has. And um >> game changer.
01:30:58
>> Yeah, it was. Especially >> because most people would have looked at
01:31:01
him and gone, "Mate, this fell's invincible. He's he's huge. He's a big
01:31:06
guy. He loves rugby. He's so good at it. He's got his >> good looking like
01:31:12
>> he's handsome, >> good looking fell and he's got the the world's his oyster, you know, and you
01:31:19
people would put him up here and and and in reality and he was going through challenges and issues and and you know
01:31:28
like back in those days he's exactly right. It's like hard. It was the it the
01:31:34
only thing that came back when you said, "Oh, mate, I've got this and that." Is
01:31:37
mate hard enough. Like what's wrong with you? >> Yeah. Stop being a [ __ ]
01:31:41
>> Yeah. You're soft [ __ ] you know. >> But um so he has definitely done a lot.
01:31:46
Um it's still but it is still hard for for for males to open up even if it's to your
01:31:55
mates you know >> sometimes >> when it shouldn't be really >> but if I don't know what it is.
01:32:01
>> Yeah. >> It's that it's that macho um don't want to look soft in front of
01:32:07
people. I I'll be able to work this out. And I suppose with some guys >> my their I'm just going to work it out.
01:32:14
it it's too late and then something might might happen. So, >> which is which is not good.
01:32:22
>> No. >> Um Yeah. You mentioned your grandkids a couple of times. How many? Seven. Seven
01:32:28
of them. >> Yeah. Seven. >> Yeah. How How do you hope they see you as a man?
01:32:32
>> Um Um >> What are you like? >> The supplier of the supplier of rugby
01:32:40
jerseys to them. No, I just I mean I've been to watch watch some of their sports not as much
01:32:47
as I I I I want to or would have wanted to. They they have they moved up from Christ Church at the beginning of this
01:32:56
year. So So I was even further away. So um m just that that I I go and watch their sports when I can that if they
01:33:05
want me on the other end of the phone that's >> I'm there. Um um they my granddaughter will I'm not
01:33:16
sure whether I'm her favorite because she gave me late notice and asked for an
01:33:20
all black ticket to the game and I'm like hey I might be able to get one and
01:33:24
I haven't been able to. So >> how how old are they? How old are the grandkids?
01:33:28
>> Um the oldest is uh 16 and she's so she she's the one who took my Argentinian
01:33:35
rugby jersey. Um so um and then it's 16 14 11 9 and two I think >> and and then the boys are
01:33:53
I think one and two on the other side. >> Wow. >> And then Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean you you your playing days
01:33:59
were over by the time they came along. But do they have an appreciation for for just how good you were?
01:34:04
um the older they get, they they look at videos or online in between all that other [ __ ] that kids watch
01:34:13
um and go, "Oh." And sometimes my daughter will ring me and go, "Oh, kids
01:34:18
were just saying, "Oh, I didn't realize." Cuz what they call me Koro
01:34:22
Koro Mumu. Because when they were younger, I was the same old thing. They I don't know what they were trying to
01:34:28
say, but it was Kor Mumu. So that's what they call me. and they just say, "Oh,
01:34:32
Cotto Mumu was I didn't think I didn't realize he was that he was good like
01:34:36
that, >> you know." >> But yeah, so got a a net baller and a rugby player or league rugby or league.
01:34:44
He plays both at the moment. So, >> are you getting um more emotional as you
01:34:49
get older? >> I find I find I am in my 20s or 30s. I could probably count how much I cried on
01:34:54
like one hand. >> Now, a sad movie will get me going. >> Yeah. Yeah. sad movies and and and
01:35:02
sort of tragedies whether it's a doco or whatever that Yeah, mate. I I don't I
01:35:08
think I was like this when I was younger, too, but I hit it better. But yeah, no, I I get a tear tear to the eye
01:35:15
quite easily these days watching some of the [ __ ] on TV going, well, it's not
01:35:19
[ __ ] but I'm like, man, >> it's quite a nice emotion to lean into
01:35:23
though, eh? >> Yeah. I sort of got to turn my head. >> Yeah. You're still like a little little
01:35:28
bit sort of embarrassed about it. >> Yeah, she knows cuz you're soft, man.
01:35:32
I'm like cuz she's my she doesn't she's she's a bit tougher in that aspect.
01:35:39
>> But she she watches scary movies all the time and I >> I I'm hopeless. I hate them. They scare
01:35:49
the [ __ ] out of me. >> Yeah. Especially that one where you know it's coming. But I still go like that
01:35:54
and she's go and she's just sitting there going that's ridiculous. You knew
01:35:58
it was coming. I said well yeah I know I knew it was coming but when it came still made me jump because
01:36:05
she goes she shakes her head. I'm like I'm exactly the same. I I loathe horror
01:36:13
movies and they do that thing where the music's building and yeah you know it's
01:36:16
you know it's happening. Um, do you have any regrets? >> Do I have any regrets?
01:36:24
Um, no. Not in the not in the sense of of of where I've been and what I've done um in
01:36:31
my life. The only regret is probably more um setting things up for when I finished playing rugby
01:36:40
>> and and and and maybe having done that through with some professionals who
01:36:48
could direct you in a in a in a better path. >> So >> yeah, >> probably probably only that. Um, you
01:36:57
know, we all do some silly things here and there um as as we get on. And I'm no
01:37:02
different. I did some stupid things when I was, you know, single >> um for a few years thinking I was still
01:37:11
a teenager running around being stupid. But >> but nothing that hurt anybody hopefully.
01:37:19
>> Um, yeah, that's the thing about getting older. So sometimes you don't realize
01:37:23
you're getting older and then you look in the mirror. I don't know if it's the
01:37:25
same for you. I look in the mirror like, "Who is that old guy looking back at
01:37:28
me?" >> Yeah. No, I do. I go, "Jesus, >> where's where have the years gone?"
01:37:34
>> Um, what about future goals? >> No, just to be happy, spend more time um
01:37:40
with with the grandkids as they as they grow up. Again, like I say, it's a a
01:37:45
little bit tough when they live in out of out of town, but um hopefully um when they all come back this way, the boys as
01:37:56
well that you know, just there'll be times when we get the family together a
01:38:00
lot more often, >> you know. >> Yeah. It seems like you're quite I don't
01:38:03
know if I don't know if this was on the on the podcast or before we came in the
01:38:06
studio, but you mentioned um on the drive here today, you spoke to your son Ben in France. So, you're obviously
01:38:11
quite Yeah. quite connected. You're quite you're quite in touch with everyone. Quite familycentric.
01:38:16
>> Oh yeah. I just um I just ring up um every week with the boys, see how they're going.
01:38:24
>> Maybe twice a week sometimes um and just see see how the rugy's going. I I mean I
01:38:29
see some of it on TV um or the highlights of it and just see what he was thinking on some points.
01:38:38
>> Does he appreciate the input? >> Um >> probably. >> Yeah. Yeah, they they appreciate some of
01:38:43
the input. Um, >> some of it they know, like I said, like one of my the oldest boy
01:38:50
>> got some some tips off of off somebody else. Um, which I don't mind, you know,
01:38:57
it's fine as long as sometimes it's harder even now it's still harder of
01:39:01
them to >> get the info off me >> as opposed to that fellow over there who
01:39:07
just said what I just said, >> you know, >> and a different slightly different. But
01:39:11
yeah, Dad. Yeah, I'm all right, Dad. So, >> yeah, Dad. Things are different now,
01:39:14
Dad. >> Yeah. Well Well, unfortunately, they're not some of that stuff that they do. So,
01:39:20
>> yeah. So, >> and what what are your thoughts on retirement? So, you're like three years
01:39:25
away from the New Zealand government retirement age, but I mean 65, it's [ __ ] young, isn't it? You still got a
01:39:31
lot of life ahead after that. You planning on retiring or you just want to keep on going?
01:39:36
>> Um, no. I don't really want to keep on going. >> What? Are you stupid?
01:39:43
>> What What would you do though? Like I feel like you need a reason to get out
01:39:46
of bed. >> Oh, I'll f Don't you worry. I'll find plenty of reasons. It's not a problem.
01:39:52
Are you going to be able to retire at 65? >> Um, yeah, I think I will. >> Y
01:39:58
>> um, and if if um, what three words would you like family or friends to use to
01:40:03
describe you? So, say say you weren't in the room, but you were through that
01:40:08
glass listening and your grandkids or your kids were in here or your fiance. What three words would you like them to
01:40:13
use to describe you? >> How do you hope they would see you? >> Um, thoughtful.
01:40:22
loving and full loving and caring. >> That's all. >> They're great words, eh? It feels like
01:40:36
they're all quite similar. >> Yeah, they are. Um, fun as well. Like, let's go and see
01:40:45
grandad. He's fun. You do you load them up with sugar or are you quite responsible?
01:40:52
>> Mate, when they with I remember my I went down to Christ Church to uh to look
01:40:57
after the kids cuz my my daughter was out of town with work and so was um my son-in-law and she had three pages on
01:41:07
each child and what they will try and do what they I looked at it and I rang her.
01:41:12
I said, "What the hell is this?" She goes, "They're going to try that stuff."
01:41:17
And this is what you got to do. I looked at it. I went, "Okay." Did nothing of
01:41:22
it. If they wanted something, they got it. Yeah. Okay. No worries. Like, "Oh, mom
01:41:31
only lets us have one." Well, you That's all right. I'm not mom like I'm I'm
01:41:37
grandad and you can have it. >> So, >> like an instruction manual. But I think
01:41:41
that's the perk of being a granddad, isn't it? That's um Yeah, that's the
01:41:45
pleasure of being a grandparent, spoiling your kids and then giving them back. >> Yeah.
01:41:49
>> I don't care what my daughter says to me and what I should and shouldn't do. I
01:41:52
don't I'm not going to listen to you. You never listen to me, so no. >> Oh, that's cool. I can see your eyes
01:41:59
light up when you talk about um your kids and your grandkids. It's cool. >> Yeah. No, no, love talking to my my kids
01:42:06
all the time and and love seeing them succeed in in different areas, whether it's sport and in you know, and my
01:42:13
daughter and her and and my son-in-law and business are doing really well. So, >> so it's great.
01:42:19
>> Yeah. Really love it. >> This has been a great chat today. Do you
01:42:22
do you enjoy do do you enjoy reflecting? You enjoy a conversation like this or um
01:42:28
>> you indifferent to it? >> I don't mind it. I love it when like uh
01:42:33
when you're talking about it with the your the rugby boys and you because you
01:42:39
keep they keep bringing up stories that you forgot about and you go, "Oh man,
01:42:43
that was so funny." And then you you go in off on another tangent and and and
01:42:47
the stories keep flowing and you there's nothing like a good laugh >> all the time. Not all the time, but most
01:42:54
of the time, you know, you just want to have a laugh every now and then. >> So that and it's generally from from
01:43:02
past memories >> where you just crack up and go, >> what were we thinking?
01:43:08
>> So funny. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh, that's cool. Well, thanks for coming
01:43:11
today and being so open. >> Yes. >> It hasn't been too unpleasant.
01:43:16
>> No, no, it's been easy. And you can you say hello to to my mate on Friday.
01:43:24
>> Oh yeah, Warren Gatland. Yeah, he's he's coming in. >> Yeah.
01:43:26
>> Yeah. Say hello to him. That would be good. >> I'll um drop some words like um ask him
01:43:30
about life as a dirty dirty. >> Yeah, you can. You can. Yeah, he was pretty good. Dirty dirty to be fair.
01:43:38
>> He's gone all right. I thought about him before when you were talking about Wales
01:43:40
and just how passionate they are over there. It's like um if you're a successful coach over there like
01:43:44
>> Sir Graeme Henry was and Warren Gatland. Yeah. Like Warren Gatlin have got some
01:43:48
gates to the stadium named after him. >> Principality Stadium. There's Gatlin
01:43:54
Gates. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, they've done he's done an amazing job over there and coached,
01:43:59
you know, done some coached some great teams and that. So, I mean, good on them. I mean,
01:44:06
>> full credit. Yeah. >> Last one. Are you proud of yourself? >> Am I proud of myself? For the majority
01:44:14
of of what I've done here, >> in my life, I'm pretty proud of myself.
01:44:19
>> You know, there's always going to be one or two things that I've, you know, we've all
01:44:25
done in our life where we go, "Oh, Jesus, shouldn't have done that. Oh, I
01:44:29
shouldn't have done that." >> Those I find those intrusive thoughts,
01:44:32
they sort of come into your head at 2 in the morning when you wake up. You think
01:44:36
about something you did back in the 80s or >> something random. And you're like, I
01:44:40
don't know why I'm thinking of this, but yeah. So, yeah. >> Yeah. Well, Franica, thank you so much
01:44:47
for coming on the podcast today, mate. It's been bloody brilliant. I've really
01:44:50
enjoyed it, and I can't thank you enough for your time, mate. >> Cheers, though.
01:44:52
>> Yeah. Cheers. >> Thanks, bro.