RETURN TO CHANNEL

Search Captions & Ask AI

Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks

September 28, 2025 / 02:00:51

This episode features Warren Gatland discussing his coaching career, family life, and experiences in rugby. Key topics include his time with Wales, the Lions tours, and personal reflections on family and loss.

Gatland shares insights about his departure from coaching Wales, citing the negativity surrounding the team's performance as a significant factor. He emphasizes the importance of family, recounting memorable moments with his children and grandchildren, including a touching story about his late daughter, Shauna.

The conversation also touches on his views about the media, particularly his experiences with the New Zealand Herald, which he describes as a source of frustration during his career. He reflects on the challenges of coaching and the pressures that come with it.

Additionally, Gatland discusses his competitive nature, both in sports and family games, and how he hopes to be remembered as a caring and generous person. He expresses pride in his family and the values he has instilled in them.

The episode concludes with Gatland sharing his thoughts on happiness and the importance of enjoying life after a demanding coaching career.

TL;DR

Warren Gatland discusses his coaching career, family life, media experiences, and reflections on loss and happiness.

Episode

2:00:51

00:00:00

Yeah, it was tough uh finishing up at

00:00:01

Wales. Results and performances weren't

00:00:03

good enough and I understand that and

00:00:05

there was just a huge amount of

00:00:06

negativity out there and I kind of woke

00:00:08

up one day went actually I don't need

00:00:09

this in my life. Probably a lot of

00:00:11

people don't realize is that the success

00:00:13

that we had over a period and we're

00:00:15

there we knew we were papering over the

00:00:17

cracks that were that were there and

00:00:19

when we said when the dam bursts which

00:00:21

it has it's going to take a while to fix

00:00:23

it up. I have this romantic view of the

00:00:25

Lions. I see the Lions as being an

00:00:27

opportunity to celebrate the game.

00:00:29

Probably 217 221 was the first time I

00:00:32

kind of went winning. It was more

00:00:35

important than anything else.

00:00:36

>> Do you do you load the media?

00:00:37

>> It's one organization that I'd never

00:00:39

deal with again.

00:00:40

>> Can you say what organization or no?

00:00:41

>> New Zealand Hero.

00:00:42

>> Oh, right. On the Hero. Yeah. So, what's

00:00:44

the story about that? What's the whole

00:00:45

backstory with the clown nose? The clown

00:00:47

thing. What's the closest you've you've

00:00:49

come to being involved with the All

00:00:50

Blacks? Have there been like phone calls

00:00:52

or people reaching out over the years?

00:00:53

Oh, I've had um

00:00:57

>> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is

00:01:00

the center of performance. Whenever

00:01:01

there's a top performance in New

00:01:02

Zealand, it all comes from here. That's

00:01:04

Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that

00:01:06

for days. That's the boys who got the

00:01:08

Holland one in To.

00:01:12

>> He did it again. Hey Finn, how's the

00:01:14

performance going?

00:01:14

>> Top tier.

00:01:15

>> Nice. This is our generate room. In

00:01:17

here, you'll find our top performers

00:01:19

helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver

00:01:21

investments. Get in here, Finn.

00:01:23

Maximize, generate, putting performance

00:01:26

first.

00:01:32

>> Warren Gatland, welcome to my podcast.

00:01:34

>> Thanks, Dom.

00:01:35

>> Mate, it's great to have you here. This

00:01:36

was um sort of liazed um through through

00:01:39

your daughter.

00:01:41

>> Yeah, it was. I think you messaged her

00:01:43

and then and then she passed the message

00:01:45

on to me and I said, "Yeah, I said,

00:01:48

"Yeah, look, get him to contact me and

00:01:50

uh I'll I'll see what happens." From

00:01:52

what I can gather, this is your very

00:01:53

first NZ podcast.

00:01:56

>> Probably. Yeah. Yeah. I've done a few of

00:01:58

them. A lot of them overseas, but uh not

00:02:00

really in in New Zealand. Yeah.

00:02:02

>> Yeah. Well, it's an honor to have you

00:02:03

here. One of the one of the greats of

00:02:04

New Zealand rugby, a great Mulu man and

00:02:07

a coaching great. Yeah. Um, how does

00:02:09

life look for you this year?

00:02:12

>> Uh, I'm loving life at the moment.

00:02:14

Really enjoying things. So, yeah, it was

00:02:16

tough uh finishing up at Wales. Um but

00:02:20

I'm I I kind of made the right decision

00:02:22

for myself. Um

00:02:24

kind of looked at it there was um it was

00:02:28

as a challenge and you know results and

00:02:30

performances weren't good enough and I

00:02:33

understand that uh and there was just a

00:02:35

huge amount of negativity out there and

00:02:37

I kind of woke up one day went actually

00:02:38

I don't need this in my life. M

00:02:40

>> uh I've been through a lot, been

00:02:42

successful. Um and I felt was you know

00:02:44

it was it was a challenge. So kind of

00:02:47

said um you know that's enough for me

00:02:49

for the moment and I will have a break

00:02:51

and there's a few other things on the

00:02:54

horizon and few other opportunities but

00:02:56

just really enjoyed uh like having that

00:02:59

time and and myself and family had a bit

00:03:02

of time in Spain and Portugal and and

00:03:04

France and then we come back just come

00:03:06

back from Fiji for a few week a few

00:03:07

weeks and uh yeah and just um just going

00:03:11

with the flow.

00:03:13

>> Yeah. on your your daughter's Instagram.

00:03:15

I saw some uh footage from Dinerell of

00:03:16

you diving into the pool. It's not a bad

00:03:18

dive for a man in his 60s.

00:03:20

>> Yeah. Uh yeah, just having we went out

00:03:24

to one of the islands got um Paradise

00:03:27

Cove which was we flew out there which

00:03:29

was beautiful and then in into Sopel in

00:03:32

Denal and

00:03:34

uh my son and um his girlfriend were

00:03:37

there and my daughter and son-in-law and

00:03:39

two grandkids. Yeah, we had a great

00:03:41

time. It was it was really good to have

00:03:42

some some quality family time.

00:03:44

>> Yeah. Yeah. You seem real family

00:03:45

ccentric. So there's your wife Trudy who

00:03:47

you've been with for um decades now. And

00:03:49

it's her birthday today by the way.

00:03:50

>> Yeah. She's uh she she turns the same

00:03:52

age as me today. So only for a couple of

00:03:54

weeks for my birthday in a couple of

00:03:55

weeks. So

00:03:56

>> and and two adult kids um Gabby and

00:03:59

Brin. And uh yeah, it was Gabby who who

00:04:00

set this up. Um

00:04:03

yeah. Uh I read about Gabby. There was a

00:04:06

bet that you guys had during the 2017

00:04:08

Lions tour. It wasn't so much a bet. Uh

00:04:11

I can remember

00:04:14

um

00:04:16

after the second test, so the the test

00:04:18

series was one all and

00:04:21

the Lions uh it was the second time I've

00:04:26

been involved and obviously coming to

00:04:27

New Zealand and playing

00:04:31

the All Blacks at home. Two test matches

00:04:33

at Eden Park. Uh obviously with a record

00:04:36

has been fairly fantastic for the All

00:04:38

Blacks. Um

00:04:40

the people in charge of the Lions I

00:04:43

suppose never thought that we had any

00:04:44

chance of winning a series. So they

00:04:47

offered me a huge bonus for uh winning a

00:04:52

Lion series in New Zealand. But um

00:04:54

stupidly I never uh

00:04:58

uh sort of uh negotiated for a drawn

00:05:02

series. I remember on the Friday night

00:05:05

before the third test, uh saying to

00:05:08

Gabby, I said, "Gabs, um if we win

00:05:11

tomorrow, uh you can go shopping on

00:05:13

Sunday and buy whatever you want." So,

00:05:15

she was pretty excited about about that.

00:05:17

And obviously, we we drew the third test

00:05:20

and I get a text from her about 15 20

00:05:23

minutes later saying, "Dad, are we still

00:05:24

going shopping tomorrow?" So, you know,

00:05:26

you can understand young uh teenage

00:05:28

girls or young young women in in terms

00:05:31

of um you know, what their priorities

00:05:33

are.

00:05:33

>> Well, I I asked her what she would have

00:05:35

bought um if you handed over the card.

00:05:37

Yeah. By the way, 15 all draw in that

00:05:39

third game. E Lions versus Blacks. Um

00:05:41

she said I would have bought myself a

00:05:42

nice new wardrobe. Well, this is going

00:05:44

to make me sound like a brat.

00:05:46

>> So, I don't know how extensive the

00:05:48

wardrobe is. She's

00:05:49

>> talking she's got she's um uh two lucky

00:05:52

I got two great kids. They they are

00:05:55

>> fantastic. They've done well. Um and the

00:05:59

most important thing is they're good

00:06:00

people and um that's what I like and the

00:06:02

relationship that Gabby and Brenn have

00:06:04

is has been amazing just how incredibly

00:06:07

close they are. So you know look we're

00:06:09

very very lucky as as parents in terms

00:06:11

of uh the two kids we have. And Brun on

00:06:14

Instagram, there's like a series of

00:06:16

videos of um like you having a like an

00:06:18

old man nap in the middle of the day and

00:06:20

he he sneaks up and kisses you on the on

00:06:22

the mouth.

00:06:23

>> Oh,

00:06:23

>> how many times does he get you?

00:06:26

>> He's a recidivist.

00:06:27

>> Oh, I know. He's a he loves scaring

00:06:30

people, you know. So, that's kind of one

00:06:31

of his things, you know, hiding behind

00:06:33

covers. He's got some mates who do that

00:06:35

sort of thing. I remember driving

00:06:36

through the tunnels at um on a bike ride

00:06:38

one day at why he and so he's biked

00:06:40

ahead and it's pitch black and he's

00:06:43

hidden in one of the corners and come

00:06:45

out and scared me and stuff. So he loves

00:06:47

doing a bit of that sort of stuff and

00:06:48

and and catching me out. So uh yeah,

00:06:51

it's probably probably about time I got

00:06:53

him back I think.

00:06:54

>> Oh 100%. Yeah, it's um yeah what it's

00:06:57

like 10 nil at the moment I think to him

00:06:59

according to Instagram. Um and what is

00:07:01

the big match philosophy in the Gatland

00:07:04

household? The big much. Oh. Um,

00:07:10

>> that's an interesting one. Um,

00:07:12

so if we say just each, you know, how

00:07:14

much it's big much and it means uh how

00:07:18

much do I love you? And it's big much.

00:07:21

So I really started with Brin and used

00:07:24

to um read, you know, um I said, "How

00:07:28

much do I love you for big hair?" The

00:07:31

the rabbit story, the big hair story. So

00:07:34

it goes on, you know, just, you know,

00:07:36

how much I love you to to the gate and

00:07:37

back and to the park and back and up to

00:07:39

the road. I I can't remember the story.

00:07:41

So I used to get to the end of it and,

00:07:43

you know, they used to finish off I

00:07:44

loved you to the moon and back and

00:07:45

everyone's sort of heard that and then

00:07:47

so I'd finish off that and Brin say well

00:07:50

I love you the sun back and then I'd go

00:07:52

I loved you the stars and back and then

00:07:54

I love you the stars back hundred times

00:07:56

then a thousand times then million

00:07:58

times. So this would this would go on

00:08:00

and on. He loved the story and one day I

00:08:02

said to him, um, "Bren, I love you big

00:08:04

much and there's nothing bigger than

00:08:06

that." And he went, "Oh, okay." So he

00:08:08

never asked me again. So, so it kind of

00:08:11

just became a saying in the family say

00:08:13

just say how much and it's sort of kind

00:08:14

of like big much. And I don't know if

00:08:16

you ever saw me in games. Sometimes

00:08:17

they'd be in you put your hands out

00:08:19

because that's what the the hair does

00:08:21

and you reach out as far as you can and

00:08:23

that sort of like symbolizes what big

00:08:25

match and a lot of times in games seen

00:08:28

the family and Brin does it as well. you

00:08:30

see u family up in in the stands and you

00:08:32

just might do that and just you know we

00:08:34

know exactly what we're saying to each

00:08:36

other so you know just how important

00:08:38

each other is and and how important our

00:08:40

relationship is.

00:08:41

>> It's so cool something you still say and

00:08:44

do to this day.

00:08:45

>> Yeah. My granddaughter so I'd say she's

00:08:47

she's three and a half. She'll be Oh,

00:08:49

she'll be four in October. So if I say

00:08:51

to her how much she'll go big much.

00:08:52

Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's kind of we

00:08:57

we've got a we've got a a few of those

00:08:59

sort of little saying, you know, I'd say

00:09:01

my daughter, um, she got me some some

00:09:05

shirts for for Christmas last year.

00:09:07

One's

00:09:08

uh called uh u my second favorite

00:09:12

because I, you know, I'd say to all the

00:09:16

kids all the time, "Oh, you're my second

00:09:17

favorite or you're my second favorite.

00:09:18

Who's your first?" And I'd just say, "I

00:09:20

don't know." you know, so that that came

00:09:22

a bit of a bit of a joke. And uh uh

00:09:25

another shirt she she got made for me

00:09:27

was any chance. And people So when we

00:09:30

say to each other in the family, so is

00:09:33

there any chance? We know exactly what

00:09:35

we're saying because I coached a guy in

00:09:38

in Wasps called Fraser Waters and came

00:09:42

from very posh family from family from

00:09:45

Jersey and uh well educated. He wasn't

00:09:47

playing rugby for the money. He didn't

00:09:49

need the didn't need the money. He was

00:09:51

playing because he loved the game and he

00:09:54

was such a competitor. And when you get

00:09:57

those sort of play, they're gold dust.

00:09:59

They're absolutely gold in terms of um

00:10:01

the UK because it's not it's not trying

00:10:04

to think about your future because they

00:10:06

want they're competitive and want to

00:10:07

win. And we were doing something one day

00:10:10

and I and the boys used to take the

00:10:13

mickey out of him and they used to call

00:10:14

him faqua very posh you know Fraser

00:10:17

waters you know play had a few caps for

00:10:19

England Fqua you know so one day Fraser

00:10:22

said excuse me is there any chance and I

00:10:24

went what is there any chance and I and

00:10:27

I went what do you mean is there any

00:10:29

chance and he I said what does that mean

00:10:31

he said that's just a polite way of

00:10:33

saying would you hurry the [ __ ] up

00:10:36

excuse my excuse my language.

00:10:40

So anytime we're with the family and one

00:10:43

of us and no one knows you're saying you

00:10:45

say is any chance and the others know

00:10:47

exactly what they're saying. So we got a

00:10:49

few few little quirky things like that

00:10:51

with within the family a big much and

00:10:54

any chance and you know you're my second

00:10:56

favorite and a few other things there.

00:10:58

>> It's really cool. It's like your own

00:10:59

little sort of language or

00:11:00

>> Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose when

00:11:02

you, you know, when you're away from

00:11:04

home so much and you're in a lot of

00:11:06

different people's companies, you know,

00:11:08

you need a few things to keep you

00:11:10

entertained, but also uh as a reminder

00:11:13

to tell someone to hurry up if they need

00:11:14

to to get on with it as well.

00:11:16

>> Oh, how good's that? And what about

00:11:18

Trudy and yourself? When you guys met at

00:11:20

Teachers College?

00:11:21

>> Met at Teachers College.

00:11:22

>> What age?

00:11:23

>> Uh was our third year at Teachers

00:11:26

College. So, uh 20ish 20. Yeah. 21, I

00:11:29

think. Yeah. Um,

00:11:31

>> what were you like? Were you a rugby

00:11:32

head at the time?

00:11:33

>> Yeah, I was I was I had I hadn't played

00:11:36

I think that year I sat on the bench at

00:11:38

the end of the year for White Cat. It

00:11:40

was it was the we knew who each other

00:11:42

were um cuz we were in the same year,

00:11:44

but we hadn't really connected or or

00:11:46

spoken and

00:11:48

you you'd probably get kicked out of

00:11:50

doing this today, but it was the first

00:11:52

day of the semester or the term of of

00:11:55

the year and she was standing in front

00:11:58

of me looking at the notice board and

00:11:59

looking at the schedule and what was

00:12:01

going on and I came behind, I knew who

00:12:02

she was and I I pinched her backside and

00:12:05

she turned around and smiled and then uh

00:12:08

kind of we connected after that. And I

00:12:10

was thinking this kind of not the thing

00:12:11

you do these in canceled for that.

00:12:14

>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Kicked out and

00:12:17

banned and forever, but um yeah, so

00:12:21

>> that was in 85. So yeah, sort of 40

00:12:24

years really. Yeah.

00:12:25

>> Wow.

00:12:25

>> Yeah,

00:12:26

>> that's an amazing uh Yeah, amazing time

00:12:28

frame. And and it seems like you still

00:12:30

really like each other's company. Yeah,

00:12:32

I think um we've been

00:12:36

uh

00:12:38

done a lot of traveling. You know, we've

00:12:40

lived in a number of countries and with

00:12:42

Ireland and and obviously in London and

00:12:45

and uh time at Wasps and Wales and then

00:12:48

back back home. Uh I don't know how many

00:12:51

how many houses we've lived in over the

00:12:53

years. And I think in all that time, I

00:12:55

think I've only been there for about two

00:12:57

of the shifts, but she's done mo she's

00:13:00

done most of them. Yeah. So, yeah, it's

00:13:02

uh it it's worked. I mean, we went to

00:13:06

Ireland when the the kids were

00:13:09

very young. Um BR hadn't really learned

00:13:12

to to speak at that time. So, um they

00:13:15

both picked up Irish accents and then we

00:13:18

sort of six years living in Ireland. We

00:13:20

moved back to um or we moved to London

00:13:22

and uh Brinn kept his Irish accent till

00:13:25

he was sort of 12 or 13. And then Gabby

00:13:27

picked up an English accent. And I

00:13:29

remember Trudy coming home one day. She

00:13:31

taken the kids out shopping and stuff

00:13:32

and um she was having a coffee and

00:13:35

sitting down. The kids were having

00:13:36

something to eat and drink and woman in

00:13:38

the table next door said, "Excuse me, I

00:13:40

don't mean to be rude, but how does it

00:13:43

work that you have a son who has an

00:13:44

Irish accent, a daughter's got an

00:13:46

English accent, you've got a New Zealand

00:13:47

accent. How does that kind of work?" So

00:13:50

um but after the time at was we came

00:13:52

back um kids were kind of ready getting

00:13:55

Gabby was getting ready for high school

00:13:56

and and Bren as well and then I I did

00:14:01

the whales sing and um sort of travel

00:14:03

back and forwards between campaigns and

00:14:05

they came over and yeah it kind of it

00:14:07

kind of worked. Um the thing about

00:14:10

international rugby is that it's it's

00:14:11

full on in those periods but you do get

00:14:13

a little bit of respite in terms of a

00:14:16

break in between campaigns. How hard has

00:14:18

your career been on um Trudy and the

00:14:20

kids?

00:14:21

>> How has

00:14:22

>> How hard has it been?

00:14:24

>> Has it been hard on them or

00:14:25

>> I think it's been challenging. We you

00:14:27

know we've made sacrifices um being

00:14:30

apart and stuff and

00:14:32

>> missing sort of um you know important

00:14:35

events and things but it's given us that

00:14:39

opportunity. It's given us um security

00:14:41

and and and

00:14:43

you know had that chance to be able to

00:14:45

set ourselves up financially and

00:14:46

probably the f for the future of my

00:14:48

family and stuff and and I kind of um

00:14:52

and that that for me was kind of has

00:14:54

been or was a motivating factor you know

00:14:56

sort of coming from I wouldn't say a

00:14:59

privileged upbringing and you know

00:15:00

pretty tough times and so to have those

00:15:04

opportunities uh given to you in terms

00:15:06

of playing rugby when the game

00:15:08

professional get involved and coaching

00:15:10

and and being able to earn a a good

00:15:12

living. Yeah, it's it's challenging

00:15:14

because there's a lot of um

00:15:18

there can be criticism and negativity

00:15:19

out there and those are kind of you get

00:15:21

to sort of put up with that and um

00:15:26

almost sometimes it I think times are

00:15:28

change where it's kind of almost like

00:15:30

water off a duck's back in terms of a

00:15:32

lot of the stuff that's I'm not on

00:15:34

social media. um

00:15:37

a couple of little accounts where the

00:15:38

family family family know about which is

00:15:40

if we need to contact each other. So um

00:15:43

and I think that helps that you know I

00:15:45

don't you always hear about the stuff

00:15:47

that's going on and and you know sort of

00:15:51

what people are saying if there's

00:15:52

negativity but I just I' definitely try

00:15:55

and stay away from it.

00:15:56

>> You there was a a post Gabby did um some

00:15:58

ex players were coming at you and she

00:16:00

had to go on social media. Um, so

00:16:02

obviously like it it hurt her deeply

00:16:05

like seeing the old man

00:16:06

>> um having a having a rough go. Like when

00:16:09

that happens to you say Gabby don't even

00:16:10

get involved or does it like make your

00:16:13

heart burst with pride? Oh, I think I

00:16:15

think the piece that she wrote was was

00:16:19

um when I saw that I thought it was

00:16:21

pretty amazing. You know, it's kind of

00:16:22

like she was

00:16:25

I could understand look there were some

00:16:27

players in the media and they they had

00:16:29

been a bit critical of um myself and

00:16:33

some of the performance and that's

00:16:35

understandable. That's that was their

00:16:36

job and that's what they get paid for.

00:16:38

But she kind of the point she was kind

00:16:40

of make was that you know if it have it

00:16:43

hadn't been for the success of uh your

00:16:46

rugby careers in Wales and and that then

00:16:48

you probably wouldn't be in those jobs

00:16:50

or in those positions or being asked to

00:16:52

do those sorts of things and um and it's

00:16:56

like everything that sort of it's

00:16:58

sensational and news for for a few

00:17:00

minutes but the amount of responses that

00:17:03

she got from people in terms of and even

00:17:05

the messages that I got from people

00:17:07

saying, "Oh, you must be really proud of

00:17:10

>> your daughter and you know what she

00:17:11

said." And I think she was pretty

00:17:12

eloquent in in terms of her response and

00:17:15

and I suppose having a you know I

00:17:18

haven't I didn't really say anything but

00:17:20

you know her wanting to have a bit of a

00:17:21

crack back at them and and and protect

00:17:23

her dad and uh because you know we are

00:17:26

in really an incredibly close family.

00:17:28

>> Yeah. Oh, it's touching. It's really

00:17:30

nice. Yeah. Um, and yeah. So, so the the

00:17:34

last week while you've been in Wales on

00:17:35

like on on your own, the family's back

00:17:37

here. Um, yeah. How is bachelor life?

00:17:38

Did you pick up any bad habits?

00:17:40

>> Have you found it hard like to go go

00:17:42

back to living in a in a house with your

00:17:43

wife?

00:17:44

>> Um, no. I think I've been good. So,

00:17:47

yeah, I do most of the cooking and try

00:17:49

and help out around around home and

00:17:52

stuff. So, um, yeah, I think, um,

00:17:58

I've never minded my own company and

00:18:00

I've kind of been busier and so when

00:18:01

you're back and you you're sort of

00:18:03

coaching, you are you are really busy.

00:18:05

Probably the hardest I found Sundays the

00:18:07

hardest day. It's kind of like it's

00:18:08

almost like

00:18:10

>> it's your rest day and your family day

00:18:12

and kind of um yeah, that was for me

00:18:14

sometimes being on my own on Sundays was

00:18:17

the most challenging thing. But um like

00:18:20

I said when you're involved in campaigns

00:18:23

and you know particularly rugby it's

00:18:25

it's almost 24/7. It's fully on for that

00:18:28

sort of two month period or couple of

00:18:30

months and as um

00:18:34

you know people involved in the the

00:18:36

rugby championship will know exactly

00:18:38

what I'm talking about. Um

00:18:41

but I say you do get that bit of respite

00:18:43

in terms of a break you know in between

00:18:45

campaigns. M you'd imagine the

00:18:47

homesickness is um pretty fierce when

00:18:49

there's like a birthday or something

00:18:50

back home or maybe when you know you're

00:18:52

getting a hammering over there and

00:18:53

you're on a losing streak. That's when

00:18:55

you want your tribe around you.

00:18:57

>> Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And uh the thing

00:19:00

was that um I know it's Father's Day um

00:19:04

on on Sunday, but um I get uh I I never

00:19:09

I never seem to have Father's Day

00:19:11

because it was a different time of the

00:19:12

year and my wife seemed to get always

00:19:14

get two two Mother's Days, which is kind

00:19:16

of a uh was a was a bit ironic. So um

00:19:20

yeah, I think when you miss birthday

00:19:22

parties and um you know significant

00:19:25

events and you know you miss a lot of

00:19:27

family

00:19:29

functions and weddings and different but

00:19:31

I it's not really indifferent to when

00:19:33

you were playing growing up. You know I

00:19:35

I played a lot of cricket as a youngster

00:19:37

growing up so you know missed a lot of

00:19:39

family stuff in there and those are kind

00:19:41

of the sacrifices you make if you want

00:19:43

to be successful and you want to get to

00:19:45

try and get to the top of your sport. M

00:19:47

>> Well, you're in the country this year

00:19:49

for Father's Day. What What are you

00:19:50

having to get for Father's Day? The

00:19:51

Fuzzy book's pretty good, I believe.

00:19:52

>> Oh, apparently. Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:55

Um

00:19:57

Yeah. I don't uh uh not sure what I'm

00:20:00

getting for Father's Day. Yeah. I spoke

00:20:01

to my daughter. I think she's she was

00:20:03

talking about getting me some sunglasses

00:20:04

or something like that. So, I think

00:20:07

>> her and her son might go might go halves

00:20:09

in that. So, I'll have to wait and see.

00:20:11

>> Yeah. I like hearing this family stuff.

00:20:13

It's really cool. It's really cool to

00:20:14

see the side of you. And I've actually

00:20:15

got a card here. And I don't know if you

00:20:16

want to talk about this marcher at all.

00:20:18

Um but this card's called Shauna.

00:20:20

>> All right. Yeah.

00:20:21

>> Yeah. Which is not something that's

00:20:22

widely known I guess about Warren

00:20:24

Gatlin. You you talk about this in your

00:20:25

book.

00:20:26

>> Yeah.

00:20:26

>> Um Yeah. So who who's Shauna?

00:20:29

>> So she was our first born. Um and she

00:20:33

unfortunately lived for about 4 months.

00:20:35

U she was born in spobifida and we and

00:20:38

times we even we had a couple of scans

00:20:39

and things just did not know. Um she was

00:20:42

born in in Ireland in in Gway. Um and

00:20:46

kind of um what happened then had a

00:20:49

really significant impact on me. Um what

00:20:54

wasn't in the short term but was what I

00:20:56

thought about uh on my coaching career

00:20:58

sort of later on. Um just the importance

00:21:01

of you know we're all involved in a

00:21:04

sport that we love and we make a lot of

00:21:06

commitment a lot of sacrifice. But I

00:21:09

kind of went a bit further than that. So

00:21:11

any teams that I've been involved in,

00:21:12

I've spoken about just um you know how

00:21:16

lucky we are and often you know people

00:21:18

are are well paid and you get those

00:21:20

opportunities but the most important

00:21:22

thing in your life is your family. And I

00:21:24

kind of went if things are right at home

00:21:26

if um you've got support from your

00:21:30

family then as a as a coach you get a

00:21:32

much better product on the field. And

00:21:36

often a player comes to me and says,

00:21:38

"Oh, my partner's got a scan. Uh, can I

00:21:41

miss training?" Yeah. Or something, you

00:21:43

know, something's wrong with one of the

00:21:45

kids at home or um the misses, you know,

00:21:48

there's some relationship issues and,

00:21:50

you know, they need to spend a bit of

00:21:51

time together. I I've never had a

00:21:53

problem with giving players some time or

00:21:57

missing some stuff because I know by

00:21:58

doing that that um I get so much

00:22:04

>> more in return from from those players

00:22:06

when I when I ask for um something from

00:22:10

them. Um and kind of like so when I'd

00:22:14

we'd been in uh going backwards and

00:22:16

forwards to Ireland for a few years. So

00:22:19

I' we'd spend uh five or six months in

00:22:23

Ireland and I was sort of player coach

00:22:24

there with a club called Goreians and

00:22:26

I'd come back to New Zealand and pick up

00:22:29

a relief teaching job

00:22:31

if um and lucky enough and play club

00:22:35

rugby play for WA and hopefully get

00:22:37

selected for an all day tour at the end

00:22:39

of the year and then stay on an island.

00:22:41

The downside of that we had eight

00:22:42

winters in a row but um u so but when we

00:22:45

were there um

00:22:48

obviously you know Shauna was born and

00:22:51

we were this the club that I was

00:22:53

involved with had been their whole goal

00:22:56

was to get promoted to the all island

00:22:57

league and the first year I went there

00:22:59

they weren't um in a position where they

00:23:02

could get promoted

00:23:04

the next year um just missed out on

00:23:07

promotion and we got promoted um that

00:23:10

third year or the third or fourth year.

00:23:13

And when Shauna was born, we were right

00:23:16

in the middle of the the playoffs for

00:23:18

promotion and they'd spent a significant

00:23:20

amount of money having us over there um

00:23:24

playing paying for accommodation, giving

00:23:25

us some expenses and and those things

00:23:27

over over that period. And

00:23:31

um when Sean was born, they said to you

00:23:34

you got to go home. and I just said,

00:23:35

"Look, we're in the middle of um

00:23:38

playoffs, you know, the next few weeks

00:23:40

are incredibly important." And they they

00:23:43

wouldn't have it. And so we we flew back

00:23:45

to New Zealand.

00:23:47

Um

00:23:49

I I think I'd played the first game

00:23:51

where we drew and we'd been back in back

00:23:54

in New Zealand for a few weeks and we

00:23:56

got things settled back home in terms of

00:23:58

um having things um you know pretty calm

00:24:02

in terms of Shauna coming back home and

00:24:04

I ran the club and I said was there's

00:24:06

another game. Do you want me to come

00:24:08

back for the the playoff which was

00:24:10

important having drawn the first game

00:24:13

and they said would you do that? So I I

00:24:15

flew back to to Ireland. We played this

00:24:17

game in Limmerch, won the game and I

00:24:20

flew back to New Zealand again. We we

00:24:22

got promoted to the all league. So and I

00:24:24

kind of felt and that that to me was a

00:24:29

massive lesson. They had made a massive

00:24:30

sec a huge sacrifice in giving me

00:24:33

something and it was easy for me to give

00:24:36

it back and I kind of knew, you know,

00:24:39

you know the same with the players. You

00:24:40

know,

00:24:42

people say, "Oh yeah, but what if

00:24:43

they're missing training?" I so I treat

00:24:44

it like you know they're carrying an

00:24:47

injury and they can't train and that

00:24:48

happens all the time and things and like

00:24:50

I said you you kind of get things right

00:24:53

off the field as much as you possibly

00:24:55

can and then hopefully you can get

00:24:56

things right on the field.

00:24:58

>> What were those four months like?

00:25:01

>> That they were challenging. Yeah. So um

00:25:03

>> cuz you're quite young at the time late

00:25:05

20s maybe 30.

00:25:06

>> Uh no it wasn't that. Uh

00:25:09

so Gabby was born when I was 30. So it's

00:25:12

30 years difference. So I think um 28 27

00:25:14

28. Yeah. Um it was tough you know sort

00:25:18

of um

00:25:20

I can remember um

00:25:23

when she was born in hospital in in

00:25:26

Goreway and and I and I didn't realize

00:25:28

but the obviously the the midwife and

00:25:30

the nurses and that and they started

00:25:32

they were sort of crying with tears and

00:25:34

stuff and sort of what was on and then

00:25:35

all of a sudden there was a bit of a um

00:25:40

you know the the sort of everyone

00:25:42

running around and stuff and and then we

00:25:44

got specialists involved and and I can

00:25:47

remember talking to the specialists, you

00:25:50

know, a few days later and saying, you

00:25:51

know, out of terms of spinobipida, you

00:25:54

know, out of

00:25:56

out of 10, how bad is she? He said, oh,

00:25:59

probably nine out of 10. And so, you

00:26:01

imagine a a little um,

00:26:04

you know, a little infant being born

00:26:06

with, you know, a significant sort of

00:26:08

hole on on uh on on the sort of lower

00:26:11

half of their back. And but the thing

00:26:14

for me is Trudy Trudy was amazing, you

00:26:17

know, just before Shauna passed away

00:26:19

that um

00:26:22

the the lesion over on her back had

00:26:25

healed and they said, you know, with a

00:26:28

lesion that size, there's a good chance

00:26:29

that um she'll get an infection and that

00:26:32

that'll go to the brain and it it'll

00:26:34

probably probably end up sort of um

00:26:37

killing her as well. But but that never

00:26:40

happened. And I mean she was, you know,

00:26:41

Trudy was amazing. Um, but it was, you

00:26:45

know, it was challenging afterwards as

00:26:46

well because I'd kind of, we would go

00:26:49

and see the doctor

00:26:52

every now and again. Um,

00:26:55

I'd actually gone on a rugby trip to

00:26:57

Australia

00:26:59

and um, sort of set her up and she

00:27:03

passed away while I was over over in

00:27:05

Australia. So I sort of flew back. Um,

00:27:09

and you know that was um

00:27:14

that to that took me a number of years

00:27:15

to sort of get over that because you I

00:27:17

wasn't when I was there and Trudy rang

00:27:19

me and there um and that was the sort of

00:27:23

the days before mobile phones really

00:27:26

sort of had come in and so you know I

00:27:28

was teaching back in New Zealand and

00:27:30

sometimes I'd get um a phone call from

00:27:33

the office say oh Trudy's run can you

00:27:35

give her a call back when and my heart

00:27:36

would just start pounding you know, kind

00:27:38

of like thinking, oh,

00:27:39

>> worst case.

00:27:40

>> Yeah. Worst case something's happened to

00:27:41

the kids, you know, and that and that um

00:27:43

yeah, so you don't realize sort of the

00:27:47

impact that those sort of things have on

00:27:49

you, not short term, but long term, you

00:27:51

know, and how long sometimes it takes a

00:27:52

while to to recover from those things.

00:27:54

So yeah, it's it's um I often talk to

00:27:58

the kids and go, you know, we talk about

00:28:00

Shauna a lot and say, you know, you you

00:28:04

were here probably because of her

00:28:05

because we wouldn't have had Gabby

00:28:07

quite, you know, as soon as we did after

00:28:10

Shauna had passed away and then

00:28:11

obviously having Brin. So, um, I kind of

00:28:15

look at it as a, you know, it was really

00:28:18

challenging times, but we've ended up

00:28:20

with two amazing kids and and, you know,

00:28:22

that's, you know, sometimes you you've

00:28:26

got to look at your the things that are

00:28:28

difficult in your life and and but also

00:28:30

try and transfer them into the

00:28:32

positives.

00:28:34

>> Do you do you ever get over the grief or

00:28:37

or does it just sort of sit with you

00:28:38

sort of permanently? Oh, I think that,

00:28:42

you know, we always light a um

00:28:45

sort of a candle um for a birthday in

00:28:48

January and January 17th and then and

00:28:52

one of May as well, you know. Um and

00:28:55

often

00:28:56

it's like everything. It's kind of it's

00:28:59

always there, but

00:29:02

and you know people say, you know, time

00:29:04

is a great healer and but you you never

00:29:07

forget it. It's your own personal thing

00:29:09

that um as a family um you're conscious

00:29:14

of and and you go through and you know

00:29:16

it's something that Trudy and I always

00:29:19

um find significant and remember um

00:29:23

uh and you know had a had a massive

00:29:25

impact um you know both challenging but

00:29:30

in a way positively positively in in our

00:29:33

lives as well. M

00:29:35

>> I wonder if in a way it it changed or

00:29:37

shaped the way that you raise um Gabby

00:29:38

and Brun and that you know what's on the

00:29:41

line and what you can lose and just you

00:29:44

know what I mean?

00:29:44

>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Um

00:29:50

you I suppose that you know you say

00:29:54

something and things that I'd said to my

00:29:56

kids that you know I met I you know said

00:29:58

to Gabby and Bren I said I don't care

00:30:01

where you are in the world what what's

00:30:03

happened you know if you get yourself in

00:30:04

trouble whatever you get on the phone

00:30:06

you ring me and I'll be there

00:30:08

>> and I kind of said and I meant it but

00:30:10

they they know that I meant that as well

00:30:12

you know in terms of they know how um

00:30:16

important they uh to to myself and Trudy

00:30:21

as a family uh how close we are and you

00:30:24

know just said um you even even now you

00:30:28

see Bin you know might not see each

00:30:29

other we're going we're going to Japan

00:30:30

for Christmas which I really looking

00:30:32

forward to and the first thing you know

00:30:33

give him a hug and maybe a kiss and how

00:30:35

much and he'll say big much you know so

00:30:37

um and those things are pretty cool

00:30:41

>> that's a you're you're a kissing couple

00:30:42

a kissing family

00:30:44

>> um yeah I think a hugging family Yeah.

00:30:46

Yeah.

00:30:47

>> It's cool. It's cool.

00:30:48

>> Oh, it's it's amazing. And um

00:30:52

uh you know I can I can I can never

00:30:56

remember uh I know my dad was really

00:30:58

proud of me but I can never remember my

00:31:00

dad saying to me love me or or hugging

00:31:02

me you know and even when we got old you

00:31:04

know we shook hands and stuff and when

00:31:06

we greeted each other but um

00:31:09

I think the thing is that

00:31:12

uh it was kind of like different and and

00:31:14

probably the fact that um you know I had

00:31:18

been I didn't worry what other people

00:31:20

thought and had been successful. It

00:31:22

gives you kind of a little bit more of a

00:31:23

license to be able to do things. And I

00:31:25

can remember um when Brim was at school

00:31:28

at Hamilton Boys and um our food bowl

00:31:31

used to be absolutely massive every week

00:31:34

cuz he'd have all his mates around and

00:31:36

we were close to town. We had a swimming

00:31:37

pool and stuff and Trudy would be

00:31:40

looking after them and you know and guys

00:31:41

like Tomati Martin who plays for the

00:31:43

Warriors you know he just bowl in the

00:31:44

front door and Bren him good mates and

00:31:48

you know we had so many people sort of

00:31:50

staying and things and you I'd be there

00:31:52

coming home and Bren come out and I just

00:31:54

give him a big hug in front of his mates

00:31:56

and it was kind of like you know those

00:31:58

you're talking sort of um you know 2013

00:32:02

sort of 11 and there those days sort of

00:32:04

in teenage boys soo you know, it's kind

00:32:07

of been seen as maybe not the thing to

00:32:09

do, but

00:32:11

>> when Bren and I were doing, they went,

00:32:12

"Oh, people sort of, oh, that's normal.

00:32:14

That's pretty cool."

00:32:15

>> And being able to show affection. And I

00:32:17

kind of thought it's a really trying to

00:32:20

set an example to people, not being

00:32:22

afraid to

00:32:23

>> to do those sort of things. the first

00:32:25

day when he when he came into to the

00:32:27

Chiefs there, they were in the gym and I

00:32:28

went and saw him and I just go and just

00:32:30

gave a big hug in front of all the

00:32:31

players and it just, you know, it wasn't

00:32:35

uh it was just something that was normal

00:32:37

for us, you know, and and and I think

00:32:39

you're trying to you're trying to sort

00:32:41

of kind of, you know, you're not being

00:32:43

stoic. There's nothing wrong with

00:32:44

showing emotion and um you know,

00:32:47

particularly with family members and and

00:32:49

I think, you know, like you said, you're

00:32:51

trying to set a good example for other

00:32:52

people as well.

00:32:53

>> That's cool. Yeah,

00:32:55

>> thanks so much for sharing all that

00:32:56

family stuff, especially the the Shauna

00:32:58

stuff. I'm sure it's not not that easy

00:32:59

to talk about.

00:33:00

>> Yeah, it was, you know, definitely tough

00:33:02

at the time, but um I said, you know,

00:33:04

time is a great healer, but

00:33:06

>> you kind of, you know,

00:33:08

>> it never goes away anyway.

00:33:10

>> You live with it.

00:33:10

>> Yeah.

00:33:11

>> Yeah. And the um the family trip to

00:33:13

Japan at Christmas, are are you doing

00:33:15

some doornocking? Looking for some jobs?

00:33:17

>> No, no, no. We're uh we were going to go

00:33:22

for a couple of weeks and then we said

00:33:23

we can get there for three. I think

00:33:24

we're going over on about the 12th of

00:33:27

>> December. We get to see um they they

00:33:30

start just before Christmas, so I think

00:33:31

the 13th or something. So,

00:33:34

>> get to see that game and then a game on

00:33:36

the 20th and one on the 27th or 28th and

00:33:39

then fly back um get back just before um

00:33:44

New Year's. So, um yeah, looking forward

00:33:46

to that. It's going to be bloody cold

00:33:48

over there. It does get, you know,

00:33:50

really extremes in weather. You know,

00:33:52

it's really, really hot in the summer

00:33:53

and really, really cold in the winter.

00:33:55

So, um, but, you know, looking forward

00:33:57

to spending a little bit of time with

00:33:59

him, um, over there.

00:34:01

>> Great place to visit, especially with a

00:34:03

with a bid a on every toilet. You go to

00:34:05

a toilet in Starbucks and there's a

00:34:06

bidet there.

00:34:07

>> Your butt's never been so clean.

00:34:09

>> I know. Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:10

>> All right. Let's go back and talk about

00:34:12

some of the early years. Um, so I've got

00:34:14

this photo here of a young um a young

00:34:18

Warren Gatland. How are you the same and

00:34:20

how are you the man sitting in front of

00:34:22

me now? How is he the same? And how is

00:34:23

he different to that kid there?

00:34:26

>> Oh,

00:34:26

>> how old were you there? 15, 16?

00:34:28

>> No, that was 15. I would have been 18,

00:34:30

17, 18. Um,

00:34:35

oh, I I look

00:34:39

I loved my sport. Um,

00:34:42

and that's what drove me. I was

00:34:44

incredibly competitive as a as a kid.

00:34:46

Um,

00:34:48

and I don't think I don't think that's a

00:34:50

bad thing. I I always

00:34:54

kind of challenge I think there was a

00:34:56

period and a time where um with kids

00:34:59

growing up in New Zealand, you

00:35:00

everything was about participation

00:35:02

involved and there's nothing wrong with

00:35:03

that, but there are times where, you

00:35:05

know, life is about competition. life is

00:35:07

um you know things it's about winning

00:35:11

and losing at at times and and trying to

00:35:13

be successful. So as growing up as a kid

00:35:15

you know I was always

00:35:17

uh wanted to be on the winning team or

00:35:20

wanting to do things. So um and I found

00:35:23

myself um you know if we were playing a

00:35:26

game growing up and the score wasn't

00:35:30

being kept or a teacher would just

00:35:31

saying I I lost interest you know I kind

00:35:34

of and so

00:35:37

yeah I don't know where that came from

00:35:39

but you know definitely very very

00:35:41

competitive in anything that I did in

00:35:43

terms of sport and

00:35:45

>> um

00:35:46

>> and you know I was lucky enough from a

00:35:49

very early age to to go and play for

00:35:52

teams that were

00:35:55

pretty successful, you know, from even

00:35:57

from the early age of five sort of, you

00:35:59

know, happened to play in club sides

00:36:01

that were really successful and

00:36:04

um playing Gwen Shield and Rolling Mills

00:36:06

and then sort of um through um secondary

00:36:10

school and first of

00:36:14

secondary schools and and that um

00:36:18

yeah and so Um,

00:36:20

I was kind of driven and and I had,

00:36:25

you know, a big appetite for at the time

00:36:28

wasn't just wasn't just rugby. I loved

00:36:29

my cricket and kind of there was a

00:36:31

period where I was making a decision

00:36:33

which way I was going to go. Was it

00:36:35

going to be the rugby route or the or

00:36:36

the cricket route and um probably rugby

00:36:39

the opportunities in rugby just came

00:36:41

along just a little bit sooner than they

00:36:43

than they would have done in cricket.

00:36:45

God, you're another one of those e like

00:36:46

a a Jordy Barrett or a Jeff Wilson or

00:36:49

there's so many so many of you guys e

00:36:51

that are like just fantastic at both

00:36:53

these games.

00:36:54

>> Well, I think that in those days you

00:36:56

were able to do both. You know, it's

00:36:58

very difficult for

00:36:59

>> even for kids nowadays and you know the

00:37:01

sort of the the environments to to play

00:37:05

um at a high level in both those sports

00:37:08

and you still you still see some pretty

00:37:10

talented kids in terms of

00:37:12

>> doing those things. But yeah, still

00:37:14

still enjoy my cricket and watch my

00:37:15

cricket and and stuff. And

00:37:17

>> still roll an arm over. Okay.

00:37:18

>> Uh not anymore. No, no, not uh not not

00:37:23

really. But you know, still still do

00:37:25

enjoy watching it. Yeah.

00:37:26

>> I' I've got a quote here from Andrew

00:37:28

Strawbridge, who you've known since you

00:37:29

were 7 years old.

00:37:31

>> Um he was a pretty talented bloke. He

00:37:33

was a very good cricketer opening the

00:37:35

batting, keeping wicket, and bowling

00:37:37

fast. If he had the same passion for

00:37:39

cricket as he did rugby, I'm sure he

00:37:40

could have made it in that. Oh yeah. Oh

00:37:43

okay.

00:37:45

>> Yeah. He was a pretty talented sportsman

00:37:46

himself. Um straws in terms of uh

00:37:50

cricket and cricket and rugby. Yeah.

00:37:53

>> But the rugby ended up all right. Um the

00:37:55

fourth most capped wet player ever with

00:37:57

140. Uh number one on that list Fuzzy

00:38:00

with 148. Yeah.

00:38:02

>> It's a hell of a career. Uh yeah. So you

00:38:04

guys were teammates for nine seasons.

00:38:06

Won the NPC together in 1992. Is that

00:38:09

the greatest WA rugby team of all time?

00:38:12

The 1992 team.

00:38:13

>> Oh, I think it would have to be up

00:38:15

there. 1992, 1993.

00:38:17

I think we won the the Shield. But I

00:38:21

remember I remember winning the but we

00:38:23

played Oakland in the semi-final Eden

00:38:24

Park and I think the most 92 93 probably

00:38:29

two significant years that you know

00:38:31

playing Oakland uh in a semi-final in

00:38:36

' 92 in Eden Park and then uh for the

00:38:38

Shield in in 93 and they never scored a

00:38:40

try in both those games and and uh

00:38:43

remember talking to Zen Zanbrook and

00:38:45

when we won the semi-final in 92 and he

00:38:47

said you know if it had been his Shield

00:38:49

game you wouldn't have won and I kind

00:38:50

kept that in the back of my mind for for

00:38:52

another another 12 months. But but also

00:38:57

uh got to recognize that what a great

00:39:02

Oakland team that was. And I can

00:39:04

remember my first game

00:39:06

um

00:39:08

playing against Oakland for the Shield

00:39:10

uh I think it would have been about 87

00:39:12

or something like that. And and we were

00:39:13

a young team and we knew that um

00:39:16

potentially if we stayed together that

00:39:18

team was going to get better and and

00:39:21

Oakland put 30 odd points on us and and

00:39:24

and beat us comfortably at Eden Park.

00:39:27

And but for me as a person, you know, I

00:39:29

I just learned so much and I kind of

00:39:31

went after the game went, "Oh my god, I

00:39:34

want to play them next week." And

00:39:36

because that was my I had an insatiable

00:39:39

appetite for knowledge, but also for

00:39:40

wanting to improve and how did we

00:39:42

improve and you know, I learned so much

00:39:43

there. and then kind of like

00:39:46

um whether it was Kings uh or Queen's

00:39:51

birthday weekend used to you know play

00:39:53

Oakland and in those days and maybe and

00:39:55

then obviously in the NPC and so you get

00:39:58

to play them a couple of times and was

00:40:00

was all about just closing that gap and

00:40:02

trying to trying to learn and and gain

00:40:04

more experience and then obviously um

00:40:07

you know we had a we had some pretty

00:40:09

good years in those those sort of early

00:40:11

90s. Mhm. God, you must have been like a

00:40:14

rock star in Hamilton at the time. I

00:40:15

spent a bit of time living in Hamilton

00:40:16

and you know, you see the the the rugby

00:40:19

guys go out with their blazers on a

00:40:20

Saturday to the outback or the bank or

00:40:22

whatever. Um, yeah, you must have been

00:40:24

like a like a god and white at the time.

00:40:27

>> Oh, I don't know. I think um

00:40:30

uh what I loved about

00:40:33

sort of the the white cattle was just

00:40:35

how passionate uh they were as you know

00:40:38

supporters and fans and even the even um

00:40:43

uh playing playing the Lions and um you

00:40:46

know in terms of um

00:40:50

um

00:40:52

yeah we played them 93 um and and won

00:40:57

comfortably But probably it was a

00:40:59

Wednesday afternoon before the third

00:41:01

test u for the Lions tour and we're

00:41:05

probably the only place in in the

00:41:06

country at the time that on a Wednesday

00:41:08

afternoon help us too could could fill a

00:41:10

stadium you know because of the support

00:41:12

and the obviously the farming community

00:41:14

and and the people used to get in behind

00:41:16

us. So, um, yeah, look, they were always

00:41:20

very passionate supporters and and

00:41:23

incredibly loyal and, um, you know, I

00:41:26

think as you as you get a little bit

00:41:29

older and as you sort of go through

00:41:31

those stages in terms of your playing

00:41:33

and and coaching and stuff, you you you

00:41:35

recognize and you appreciate that the

00:41:38

game that you've played and have been

00:41:41

involved in their love is is there there

00:41:44

are bigger parts to it and And sometimes

00:41:47

um

00:41:49

there's bigger things in the game and

00:41:51

then and often the fans and the

00:41:53

supporters, they need to be recognized.

00:41:55

And we we're going through some pretty

00:41:58

challenging times at the moment about,

00:42:00

you know, how do you how do you promote

00:42:04

the game? How do you make it more

00:42:05

exciting? What sort of things can you do

00:42:07

to to um to make sure people people are

00:42:12

involved? and and uh you I was lucky

00:42:14

enough to spend three weeks in Australia

00:42:16

with the the uh the Lions there and you

00:42:20

know to see the the Lion supporters and

00:42:22

the fans and stuff and and and

00:42:25

I just read a few days ago that

00:42:27

basically it's cleared the debt for

00:42:30

um for Australian rug rugby you know

00:42:33

that's how important the Lions tours are

00:42:35

to the New Zealand uh to the to the

00:42:37

southern hemis we need to do from a

00:42:40

rugby perspect everything we can to to

00:42:43

support it and and people in Australia

00:42:46

and South Africa and New Zealand, they

00:42:48

appreciate, they understand how

00:42:49

important it is. But there are certain

00:42:51

people um who I was involved with the

00:42:55

Lions when uh I think there were 12 or

00:42:58

14 games and then that went down to 10

00:43:00

and I think it's now it's eight games

00:43:02

and there there are people who would you

00:43:04

know like that to like to see that down

00:43:06

to five or six games and I think it

00:43:08

would completely destroy what a Lions

00:43:09

tour is all about where you know you get

00:43:11

the kind of five warm-up games and and

00:43:15

the three tests and you end up with

00:43:16

about eight games and then maybe there's

00:43:17

a warm-up game and and and and and I

00:43:19

think about 10 games on a tour tour is

00:43:22

about right. It's it's kind of like it

00:43:24

is long enough. Um but the impact that

00:43:28

uh Alliance Tour can have on supporters,

00:43:31

promoting the game, creating interest,

00:43:34

creating superstars and and you know

00:43:37

both the home country and and you know

00:43:39

potentially in

00:43:41

um the UK and Ireland um and and

00:43:46

financially um being a a stimulus for

00:43:50

the country that's hosting the uh those

00:43:52

tours. you know, it it's it can be

00:43:54

really important.

00:43:56

>> Yeah. We'll um we'll we'll get into your

00:43:58

involvement with um the Lions shortly,

00:44:00

but um yeah, you made the All Blacks

00:44:03

from uh WCO after playing a game against

00:44:06

Wales of all teams.

00:44:08

>> Yeah, I think

00:44:08

>> having a blinder for WCO against Wales.

00:44:10

Is that correct?

00:44:11

>> Yeah, I think we were a young team at

00:44:12

the time and Wales had just won um

00:44:17

actually won the Triple Crown. So

00:44:18

they've beaten um

00:44:21

uh England um Ireland and Scotland. Um

00:44:26

yeah, so I think that was the first game

00:44:27

of tour. I actually kept that day and um

00:44:31

um yeah, it was um you know it was a it

00:44:35

was good. I remember Glenn Webb the the

00:44:39

black um Welsh winger and it was you

00:44:42

know it was a coldish day in in

00:44:45

Hamilton. not, you know, probably not as

00:44:47

cold as you normally get in uh in Wales

00:44:49

and he was wearing these white gloves

00:44:51

and stuff and I kind of went, "Oh, hell,

00:44:52

what's going on here?" But uh that was a

00:44:55

little bit different for me. Um yeah,

00:44:58

but we were lucky enough to win that

00:44:59

game. In fairness,

00:45:01

I I think um

00:45:04

probably our record for a record against

00:45:07

touring teams, you know, was pretty good

00:45:09

over the years. Yeah.

00:45:10

>> So, how do you do did you get a phone

00:45:12

call from Grizz Wy? Were you were you in

00:45:14

the sort of all black sort of sphere at

00:45:16

the time? Were you in the frame or were

00:45:17

you like a surprise pick? How do you how

00:45:19

do you find out about it? Do you hear

00:45:20

about on the radio or do you get a phone

00:45:22

call?

00:45:23

>> Um no, it's kind of the on the radio.

00:45:26

Yeah, it's kind of like um in those

00:45:29

days, you know, you never really got

00:45:30

phone calls and and

00:45:32

um I I enjoy that. One of the things

00:45:34

that I introduced um

00:45:38

when I became sort of Lions coach and

00:45:40

even with Wales with World Cups is kind

00:45:42

of how do you how do you make this how

00:45:43

do you create sort of attention? How do

00:45:46

you make this uh occasion sort of

00:45:48

something really special and

00:45:51

um and that's what happened. you you

00:45:54

either heard an all black team announced

00:45:56

on live on TV or you heard it on on the

00:45:59

radio and that was kind of and that was

00:46:01

what created that sort of that jeopardy

00:46:04

almost in terms of that creating that

00:46:06

excitement. Um

00:46:09

so yeah, look had a um orbit troll in in

00:46:13

' 88 and um I I I think I was reasonably

00:46:18

close at the after the World Cup in 87

00:46:20

to to going to Japan and and wasn't

00:46:22

selected and then in ' 88 um you know

00:46:27

had an allback trial went pretty well

00:46:28

and got selected for tour of Australia

00:46:31

and you think about how things have

00:46:33

changed. I think we went there. Uh 13

00:46:36

games, 26 players.

00:46:38

>> Um Alex Wally is coach. Um

00:46:42

John Sturgeon is manager. And then

00:46:44

you've got you um

00:46:47

doctor and physio, you know. So um

00:46:50

>> it's a compact team.

00:46:51

>> Yeah. Yeah. Basically four, you know. Um

00:46:56

and John May actually was the um the

00:46:58

doctor. He's unfortunately passed away

00:47:00

now. He was brilliant. Um

00:47:03

um

00:47:05

yeah and then you think um John

00:47:07

Gallagher who was the fullback I think

00:47:08

he played 12 of the 13 matches on tour

00:47:10

and so yeah those are you know

00:47:13

definitely a lot different to and I was

00:47:16

lucky enough to sort of you know have

00:47:17

four years and um you know be involved

00:47:21

in on a few tours but you know never got

00:47:24

on the um on the pitch set behind

00:47:26

Footsie for for a lot of test matches

00:47:29

but um And I and I think and people say,

00:47:32

"Oh, you are you disappointed with

00:47:34

that?" And I've never been disappointed.

00:47:36

I I kind of am really proud and honored

00:47:40

for the the opportunities I had and

00:47:42

experiences I had. Um, and it kind of

00:47:45

made me

00:47:47

uh when the coaching opportunities come,

00:47:49

I think it made me a better coach. It

00:47:51

made me understand,

00:47:53

you know, a player could never

00:47:55

turn around to me and say, "Oh, you

00:47:57

don't know what it's like not to be

00:47:58

selected to be in there." Hang on a

00:47:59

minute. I

00:48:01

I know exactly what it's like to to miss

00:48:03

out. But then it's kind of then it's

00:48:06

that learning experience, you know, how

00:48:08

do you respond to that disappointment?

00:48:09

You got to be disappointed because and I

00:48:11

expect players that I've coached in

00:48:13

volunte,

00:48:15

you know, pissed off and I expect them

00:48:16

to be disappointed they haven't been

00:48:17

selected in um in teams. But then the

00:48:22

thing is then it's how you respond to

00:48:24

that. you know, someone who throws the

00:48:25

toys out of the cot and mopes around and

00:48:28

it's got the head down for three or four

00:48:30

days, you know, they they're in serious

00:48:33

trouble of not being involved in the

00:48:35

future. But a player who's yeah,

00:48:37

disappointed, you know, he's

00:48:38

disappointed, but then he goes, "Okay,

00:48:40

right. I'm going to I'm going to respond

00:48:42

really really positively in terms of

00:48:45

doing everything I can to help this team

00:48:46

prepare for uh the weekend and get get

00:48:50

the team in the best possible shape to

00:48:52

perform on on that weekend. Um players

00:48:55

don't realize that that not just coaches

00:48:57

but management teams they they see that

00:49:01

and and it does have a can have a really

00:49:05

significant impact on on future

00:49:07

selections. you know, particularly if

00:49:08

you ever ever in a, you know, 50/50

00:49:11

situation where you're not quite sure,

00:49:13

but you've got someone who's a a really

00:49:15

good team man and really really positive

00:49:17

around the environment, really

00:49:19

supportive and does lots of things, you

00:49:21

know, those they're the people you want

00:49:23

in your teams.

00:49:24

>> Yeah. Just sort of attitude.

00:49:25

>> Absolutely.

00:49:26

>> Yeah. Yeah. There's a quote from you

00:49:27

that I read. Um, being behind Fitzy was

00:49:29

the biggest education of my career. Is

00:49:31

that sort of what you mean?

00:49:32

>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, it was

00:49:34

um and you know he was a fantastic

00:49:38

player,

00:49:41

unbelievable all black, you know, great

00:49:44

all black captain as well in terms of

00:49:45

the success he had. But, you know, I

00:49:47

learned a huge amount playing against

00:49:49

him. And I was probably, you know, I'm

00:49:51

pretty proud. I probably played um had

00:49:54

more wins against him as a as a hooker

00:49:56

than probably anyone else in in in world

00:49:58

rugby you know over over that period of

00:50:00

my rugby career you know in terms of

00:50:01

white kid in Oakuckland and other games

00:50:04

and all black trials and stuff and um

00:50:06

you know he was tough and physical and

00:50:09

you know made me

00:50:11

>> made me better as a player and and I

00:50:13

hope at the time I made him better as a

00:50:14

player as well.

00:50:16

>> What was he what was he like to you? He

00:50:17

was ruthlessly competitive. Was he was

00:50:20

he supportive or did he

00:50:22

>> So was I. Yeah.

00:50:23

>> But but did he was he supportive and

00:50:25

nurturing or did he see you as a threat?

00:50:27

And

00:50:27

>> Oh, and I think there was I think there

00:50:28

was mutual respect. You know, we

00:50:31

>> um you know, we got on well enough, but

00:50:34

I I find times are times are changed,

00:50:37

you know. I I see um the relationship

00:50:40

between players now and teams, you know,

00:50:42

been players who are competing in the

00:50:44

same position. you see how matey they

00:50:46

are and they're all civil. Probably in

00:50:48

our day was a little bit more cutthroat.

00:50:50

You know, if you were in the same

00:50:51

position, you'd be uh civil to each

00:50:54

other, but you were, you know, you'd

00:50:55

want to um you'd want to be taking

00:50:59

someone's position. But in saying that,

00:51:01

you know, I never wished uh an an injury

00:51:04

on anyone. And the All Blacks is

00:51:06

probably the hardest environment to be

00:51:08

involved in because I was involved in a

00:51:10

period where I think we went 50 there

00:51:12

was 50 odd matches undefeated. Um it's

00:51:15

just when which is amazing when you

00:51:17

think of sort of 87 to 1990 you know the

00:51:20

hadn't lost a

00:51:21

>> lost a match a test match or or a game

00:51:23

on tour and then kind of thinking you

00:51:26

know the way for me at the time was you

00:51:29

know how do I become number one well

00:51:31

either the player that um I'm up against

00:51:36

um gets injured or the All Blacks lose

00:51:40

and you don't want to be involved in an

00:51:42

All Black situation or you know it's

00:51:44

going to be, you know, fairly difficult

00:51:46

and and quite challenging to um, you

00:51:50

know, to get selected for yourself. So,

00:51:52

yeah, like a a real learning experience

00:51:54

over a long period for me.

00:51:56

>> What was Grizz like? Was he terrifying?

00:51:58

>> He was tough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was

00:52:01

uh

00:52:04

Yeah, I can remember. Uh, he trained us

00:52:07

incredibly hard, you Hey, like I I kind

00:52:10

of I probably had three coaches who who

00:52:14

had

00:52:15

had the most significant impact on me in

00:52:18

terms of my one one was definitely Grizz

00:52:20

cuz Grizz was uncompromising. If he saw

00:52:23

a weakness, he would

00:52:25

um push you to the limit where he almost

00:52:28

tried to break you and but he it was me

00:52:30

it was a mental toughness. It was kind

00:52:32

of like, you know, he he understood um

00:52:38

trying to get the best out of you. You

00:52:39

go away on an all black tour and

00:52:42

you would train early on that tour. He

00:52:46

he'd push your train and then when it

00:52:47

come towards the test matches, he'd ease

00:52:49

up and he'd freshen guys up and things

00:52:50

and he he you know, he definitely

00:52:52

understood that, but

00:52:55

it was important you didn't show any

00:52:56

weaknesses. he wanted he wanted people

00:52:58

that were mentally tough and um so I

00:53:01

learned a huge amount from that and then

00:53:02

the other two were um Kevin Green uh who

00:53:07

coached way and I I thought his man

00:53:10

management skills were excellent the way

00:53:12

that he got the best out of people um

00:53:15

and the way he kind of motivated and and

00:53:18

the environment that he created was

00:53:20

outstanding and Glenn Ross was another

00:53:21

one who coached me at first 15 at

00:53:24

Hamilton boys and Hamilton all boys and

00:53:27

also with Wetto and probably he was the

00:53:30

first guy that I saw was

00:53:33

uh the most professional you teaching

00:53:35

background but incredibly well prepared

00:53:38

in training sessions. you go into, you

00:53:40

knew exactly how long the training

00:53:42

session was going to be, you know, what

00:53:43

the what the drills were were going to

00:53:45

be. And that to me was that organization

00:53:48

kind of had like had a kind of a big

00:53:50

impact because we'd come through a

00:53:52

period where you'd go to training, you

00:53:55

never really even with Grizz, you never

00:53:57

really knew how long the training

00:53:58

session was going to be for and how hard

00:54:00

he was going to do and then how long

00:54:03

each drill was going to be. Um and so

00:54:06

yeah those you know definitely he was

00:54:09

was tough um had had a lot of respect

00:54:12

for him in terms of you know what he had

00:54:14

done in the game and what he achieved

00:54:16

and and definitely learned a lot from

00:54:18

him from from my main coaching career.

00:54:22

>> What what what's your proudest moment as

00:54:24

an all black? Is there anything that

00:54:26

springs to mind? Oh. Um,

00:54:34

I've never been asked that question

00:54:35

before.

00:54:36

>> Yeah. Uh,

00:54:39

yeah. I think

00:54:42

I think just being being selected. I

00:54:45

think I can remember um

00:54:49

once once being on sitting on the bus in

00:54:52

all black bus and there was all these um

00:54:54

supporters around and and they're

00:54:56

wanting autographs and photos and stuff

00:54:58

and I can remember sitting there and

00:55:00

just going,

00:55:02

you know, just don't take this for

00:55:04

granted. Uh you have, you know, how

00:55:07

lucky you are to be in this situation.

00:55:09

And I used to kind of remind me myself

00:55:11

of of those sorts of things, you know,

00:55:14

just um

00:55:17

yeah, so probably just that opportunity

00:55:20

to be involved to to put that jersey on

00:55:24

to to to call yourself an all black, you

00:55:27

know, that those are my proudest

00:55:28

moments. Yeah.

00:55:30

>> I had um you um a guy on the podcast the

00:55:32

other day who's your your career crossed

00:55:35

paths with, Freno Bodica. Yeah. Um, and

00:55:37

he what was the he was called something?

00:55:40

Um, and I'm guessing you were the same.

00:55:41

Like a guy that a guy that was in the

00:55:42

team but not playing.

00:55:43

>> Yeah.

00:55:44

>> What were you called? There's a name for

00:55:45

it.

00:55:46

>> Dirty dirty.

00:55:46

>> Dirty dirty. Yeah. Dirty dirty. And I

00:55:48

said, "Why? What's a dirty dirty?" And

00:55:50

he had never really thought about it,

00:55:51

but he said, "I think it's because we're

00:55:53

lower than the dirt."

00:55:55

>> But I don't know. What? What is a dirty

00:55:56

dirty?

00:55:57

>> I don't know what the dirty I don't know

00:55:58

where that came from. Just the dirty

00:55:59

Yeah. dirty duties. Yeah. But it sounds

00:56:01

like you guys were just pissed all the

00:56:03

time like going out casing out what bars

00:56:05

to go to for the test guys on the

00:56:07

weekend.

00:56:08

>> Well, sometimes those you did those

00:56:10

things. Yeah. Kind of like uh or if you

00:56:13

weren't involved. It didn't matter if

00:56:15

you you know you had midweek games. The

00:56:17

guys that weren't involved the next day

00:56:20

tended to go out on the night before.

00:56:22

you know that that never happens

00:56:24

nowadays because we see so many occasion

00:56:26

where someone wakes up sick or someone's

00:56:29

uh you know hasn't quite recovered from

00:56:31

an injury or something like that but um

00:56:34

yeah it was kind of like you went out

00:56:38

yeah I mean it kind of those days was it

00:56:42

was a little bit

00:56:44

um um this was a bit of the grizz of

00:56:48

philosophy and some of the you know you

00:56:51

trained hard, you played hard, and you

00:56:53

sort of kind of drank hard. That was

00:56:54

kind of like um and then you fronted up

00:56:57

the next day and you trained every day.

00:56:59

And that was kind of like that was the

00:57:02

almost that mental toughness and you you

00:57:06

knew

00:57:08

you knew the pressures of being an all

00:57:10

black, what it meant, you knew the

00:57:11

responsibilities putting that jersey on,

00:57:14

um and the history and those sorts of

00:57:16

things. Um

00:57:18

probably today some you know the people

00:57:21

aren't quite as aware as as aware of the

00:57:24

past and you know what went before them

00:57:26

and um you but definitely during that

00:57:30

period you knew um yeah and as a dirty

00:57:33

dirty you you sometimes went out there

00:57:35

and had to yeah you had to make

00:57:37

different sacrifices

00:57:40

>> to for the team. um on on reflection

00:57:43

like do you think you were you've been a

00:57:44

better player or a coach?

00:57:47

>> Uh

00:57:49

I think my experience has made me a

00:57:51

better coach, you know, definitely. Um

00:57:54

>> and I've played with some some great

00:57:58

players and some great All Blacks who um

00:58:03

went into the went into coaching but

00:58:06

never made it as coaches. And and I

00:58:08

think a part of that was that they never

00:58:11

knew why they were great players. And um

00:58:16

and I I found I found that. I mean, I

00:58:20

started kind of at a really young age,

00:58:22

you know, like I said, that time in

00:58:24

Ireland. I was a player coach at 25, 24,

00:58:27

25.

00:58:28

And and that for me was really um

00:58:33

significant because there was a lot of

00:58:35

things that I was doing that I didn't

00:58:38

not say so I didn't understand I was

00:58:40

just doing instinctively or naturally

00:58:42

because I did and I kind of had to take

00:58:44

myself and go oh why am I running that

00:58:47

line why am I doing that why why have I

00:58:50

done that and that that to me was really

00:58:53

was quite significant in terms of uh

00:58:56

coaching and understanding and um

00:59:01

you know teaching players things because

00:59:03

I really had to take myself back in

00:59:05

terms of uh asking myself a lot of those

00:59:09

a lot of those things. So yeah look um

00:59:13

yeah I was a better player than Fitzy

00:59:20

I've got to believe that you see

00:59:22

>> let it go.

00:59:25

Um, yeah. So, at the time we're

00:59:27

recording this, it's only been um seven

00:59:29

months. Seven months since you finished

00:59:31

with Wales.

00:59:32

>> Yeah. Beginning of the year.

00:59:34

>> Yeah. Yeah.

00:59:34

>> Yeah. How does it feel to suddenly wake

00:59:36

up without responsibility or pressure?

00:59:39

>> Oh, it feels good.

00:59:40

>> Yeah.

00:59:41

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um

00:59:42

>> like a relief weight off your shoulders.

00:59:44

>> Oh, I kind of I I I love the pressure. I

00:59:50

love the um

00:59:54

the responsibility and stuff and I I

00:59:57

thrive on that and I thrive on being

00:59:59

involved with teams that have been

01:00:00

underdogs and stuff. Um what I what I

01:00:03

struggled with um

01:00:06

was

01:00:07

I struggle with the negativity in the

01:00:09

end and I kind of went and

01:00:12

>> Is that from the media or the public?

01:00:14

>> Yeah, it was definitely the media. Um,

01:00:16

and I kind of went there there's a

01:00:19

there's a guy who's taken a guy called

01:00:20

Steve Tandy and and I think that um

01:00:24

he'll do a good job. He but he needs

01:00:26

some time and I hope they give him the

01:00:28

time. And it's not that the rugby people

01:00:30

won't give him the time. It's not the

01:00:31

union won't give them. I just hope the

01:00:32

media given that time because um and I

01:00:36

think that when I first went back so

01:00:40

finished in two 2019 we made the

01:00:42

semi-final in the World Cup being beaten

01:00:44

in the last sort of

01:00:45

>> minute with a with a penalty goal from

01:00:48

um Paula

01:00:50

um you know lost in the last couple of

01:00:53

minutes to the semi-final

01:00:55

>> and

01:00:57

so I finished and when I've come back um

01:01:00

into 2022 two and start 23. I went, "Oh,

01:01:03

we're in a little bit of trouble here."

01:01:05

>> And we haven't had a great Six Nation,

01:01:07

poor Six Nations. So, everyone's writing

01:01:10

us off for the World Cup. And what I've

01:01:13

loved about the World Cup and I'm proud

01:01:16

of um times that I had involved with

01:01:18

with club sides is that three months

01:01:21

together, sort of two or three months

01:01:22

together preparation that time and we've

01:01:25

ended up winning our group in the World

01:01:26

Cup um quarterfinal. we should have

01:01:28

beaten Argentina in the the

01:01:30

quarterfinal.

01:01:32

Um,

01:01:34

and

01:01:35

but I didn't get a lot of credit for

01:01:37

that. And then we've gone we've lost 18

01:01:39

players after the World Cup. They have

01:01:41

either retired or finished or or gone

01:01:43

and played overseas. And and I've just

01:01:46

said this is going to take a little bit

01:01:47

of time. And um some of the some of the

01:01:50

well journalists who were criticizing us

01:01:52

before the World Cup and said we

01:01:54

wouldn't get out of a group kind of

01:01:56

didn't really give us any credit. And

01:01:57

then you go on a little bit of a losing

01:02:00

streak cuz you know it's going to take

01:02:02

some time and there's a few games yeah

01:02:03

we were in a position to win and we

01:02:05

didn't get over the line and um and I

01:02:08

just after the the negativity and I

01:02:11

thought I need to take some pressure off

01:02:13

the players and maybe some pressure off

01:02:15

the union and I just wake up you one day

01:02:17

I went actually I don't need this in my

01:02:19

life anymore. You know I kind of I've

01:02:21

been through enough. Uh I love coaching.

01:02:24

I love being involved. Um, and

01:02:28

the game has been brilliant to me, but

01:02:30

there's a there's a time where you got

01:02:31

to actually make a decide for yourself,

01:02:34

you know, in terms of do you need to, it

01:02:37

wasn't just about me. It was kind of I

01:02:38

was I felt I was making the decision for

01:02:40

the best thing for Welsh Rugby as well

01:02:42

at the time. And

01:02:43

>> um, and haven't regretted it, you know,

01:02:46

I just kind of um

01:02:49

um,

01:02:50

yeah, so they're going through a

01:02:52

rebuilding phase. And what probably a

01:02:54

lot of people don't realize is that the

01:02:57

issues that they're there now they're

01:02:58

talking about you are they going to

01:02:59

reduce the four professional teams down

01:03:02

to two and you know what's going to

01:03:04

happen with themies and there was a

01:03:07

national academy that we had that had

01:03:08

been disbanded for a number of years and

01:03:10

that had been successful.

01:03:12

Um

01:03:14

so

01:03:16

um but the success that we had over a

01:03:19

period we're there

01:03:22

we knew we knew we were papering over

01:03:23

the cracks that were that were there and

01:03:26

and

01:03:28

>> when we said when things when the dam

01:03:30

bursts which it has uh it's going to

01:03:34

take a while to to fix it up and and I

01:03:36

think that's

01:03:38

they've been through this thing in the

01:03:40

past where they had unbelievable able

01:03:42

success um in the late 60s and the 70s

01:03:46

and and then they had um teacher strike

01:03:50

in Wales which really impacted the the

01:03:53

the the game it's school boy level um

01:03:57

and that had a quite a negative impact

01:04:00

on the game in the 80s and 90s and I

01:04:03

think it was you know from having been

01:04:06

amazingly successful in the late 60s and

01:04:08

70s I mean they didn't win a six nations

01:04:11

until 200 2005, you know, when um Steve

01:04:15

Hansen was there. Um

01:04:18

so, um yeah, it'll be actually Steve

01:04:21

Hansen had already finished him. I think

01:04:23

Mike Ruddic had won that um the

01:04:27

Six Nations in 2005. So, yeah, you know,

01:04:30

they it might take them a little bit of

01:04:33

time again.

01:04:34

>> Are um Yeah, you mentioned Steve Hansen

01:04:36

there. Are you guys friends? I found a

01:04:38

photo of um you and him on on online. Is

01:04:40

is that after the 15 all Is that after

01:04:43

the 15 all draw?

01:04:45

>> I'm not sure of it. Uh

01:04:46

>> looks like a very awkward passing

01:04:48

handshake.

01:04:50

>> Was probably just the uh you know

01:04:51

someone

01:04:52

>> the angle or the moment. Yeah.

01:04:53

>> Yeah. I can remember um Yeah, that could

01:04:56

mean just us walking away or something

01:04:58

like that. I don't think

01:05:01

>> Yeah. or you know I don't know if you

01:05:02

know what it like I mean I see so many

01:05:04

photos myself and I think photographers

01:05:07

they take every single reaction or photo

01:05:10

whatever and depending on the story that

01:05:12

they want to write they'll you know

01:05:13

they'll they'll try and match up the

01:05:15

match up the photo. So I remember

01:05:17

talking to Steve after after um the

01:05:22

Lions and 217 and he you know he said to

01:05:25

me afterwards he said um how you

01:05:27

feeling? I said I don't know what I

01:05:28

said. What are yourself? And he said it

01:05:30

feels a bit like kissing your sister,

01:05:31

doesn't it? I kind of went not sure

01:05:33

about that, but uh um you know, in terms

01:05:36

of uh

01:05:39

yeah, you know, a drawn series for the

01:05:41

Lions. But I think

01:05:43

um the the the thing about that drawn

01:05:46

series in in 217 is that again

01:05:51

um I think the most amazing thing about

01:05:54

that thing is is

01:05:56

the photo at the end of the third test

01:05:59

>> and you've got Sam Wland and Kieran Reed

01:06:01

holding the trophy where the Lions

01:06:03

players and the All Blacks intermingle

01:06:05

and to me that to me is a is going to be

01:06:08

a rugby photograph for the ages. It's an

01:06:11

iconic picture and if if the Lions had

01:06:14

have won or the All Blacks had have won,

01:06:15

we we never would have seen that um that

01:06:19

image, we never would have seen that

01:06:20

picture of the two teams um on stage

01:06:23

together and and and that kind of like I

01:06:26

I spoke before about

01:06:28

>> you know things are better bigger than

01:06:30

the game and to me that's that that's an

01:06:32

unbelievable um picture that represents

01:06:35

what the game's all about. M would you

01:06:37

still like to be in involved in the All

01:06:39

Blacks in some capacity or is that that

01:06:41

has that ship sailed?

01:06:42

>> Yeah, I think it's it's it sailed. I get

01:06:44

asked a lot about um

01:06:49

about um

01:06:52

um being involved in the I'm I'm a great

01:06:56

believer in what will be um I don't I

01:06:59

don't think ahead. I don't sort of plan

01:07:02

ahead. There are there are I know there

01:07:04

are people who have you know kind of

01:07:07

have had the goals and trying to planned

01:07:09

out their what their journey is going to

01:07:12

be what their their coaching. I haven't

01:07:15

never done that. I kind of thought if

01:07:18

you've been successful um somewhere then

01:07:21

opportunities will come along. Um I'm

01:07:23

probably

01:07:25

the only person who's been involved in

01:07:27

the game as long as I who's never had a

01:07:29

rugby agent.

01:07:31

>> Wow.

01:07:32

>> Yeah. You've done all your own

01:07:33

negotiations.

01:07:34

>> All my own negotiations.

01:07:36

>> How do you know you're not getting

01:07:36

screwed over?

01:07:38

>> Don't know.

01:07:40

>> Kind of know. I think I know what I'm

01:07:41

worth and Yeah. And then sort of

01:07:43

negotiate that.

01:07:45

>> Yeah. Like you talk to a lot of people.

01:07:47

Everyone sort of

01:07:47

>> You got a fair idea.

01:07:48

>> Yeah. You got an idea what what you're

01:07:50

worth. Um

01:07:51

>> [ __ ] You're saving a lot on agents fe.

01:07:55

>> Yeah. Um

01:07:56

>> good for you.

01:07:56

>> So I've never had an agent. uh and

01:08:01

I've um haven't got a CV. I've never

01:08:03

applied for a job and kind of so I've

01:08:07

been incredibly lucky. And

01:08:10

so um like I said, you know, great

01:08:13

believer in what will be will be and and

01:08:16

not planning too far ahead. And if

01:08:19

you're successful, opportunities come

01:08:20

your way. And if you're not um and I'm

01:08:23

lucky enough I've had great experiences,

01:08:26

have been successful. you know, had

01:08:27

challenging times, but rugby has been

01:08:31

a big part of myself and my family's

01:08:34

life, and it's given us those those

01:08:36

opportunities to have security, to be

01:08:39

able to travel around the world, and um

01:08:41

and you know, have have opportunities in

01:08:43

the future. And so if I don't do

01:08:46

anything again, um but I'm sure I will.

01:08:49

Um

01:08:51

you I might spend the next uh few years

01:08:53

spending as much time with the

01:08:55

grandkids, doing as much travel as I can

01:08:57

with myself and Trudy and and making

01:08:59

sure my kids are in the best possible

01:09:02

space, you know, space possible

01:09:04

>> because you're still very young on the

01:09:05

big scheme of things. I think you're the

01:09:06

same age now as what Sir Graham Henry

01:09:07

was when he finished with the All

01:09:08

Blacks,

01:09:10

>> right?

01:09:10

>> Yeah.

01:09:12

>> Yeah. I don't Yeah.

01:09:14

What's what's the closest you've you've

01:09:15

come to being um involved with the All

01:09:17

Blacks? Have there been like phone calls

01:09:18

or people reaching out over the years?

01:09:20

Oh, I've had um

01:09:23

I've had uh I think there there have

01:09:26

been times when uh they've been looking

01:09:29

for all the coaches where they've been

01:09:32

contacting all the all the coaches in

01:09:34

the world and um but a lot of people

01:09:37

would didn't put their names forward in

01:09:39

things and um I think they've changed

01:09:42

their philosophy on that thinking at the

01:09:44

time I you know they might contact

01:09:46

myself I might contact eight or 10 other

01:09:49

people you We want you to put your name

01:09:50

forward for the All Blacks position. But

01:09:53

it's one of those there that

01:09:57

if anyone finds out that you've put your

01:09:59

name forward for the All Blacks and then

01:10:02

you don't get the role

01:10:04

and then you go somewhere else, I well

01:10:06

the All Black's my first choice. You're

01:10:08

only my second choice.

01:10:09

>> It's a really delicate Yeah. delicate

01:10:13

sort of situation that so I think you

01:10:16

know I think they've changed their

01:10:18

philosophy where they may target just

01:10:20

one or two people in terms of the roles

01:10:23

um going forward because I was involved

01:10:26

in a situation where as contact I never

01:10:28

put my name forward and I know a number

01:10:29

of other coaches because of that

01:10:32

scenario I was talking about you know

01:10:33

never put their names forward in terms

01:10:35

of uh applying for an all black coaching

01:10:38

position. M.

01:10:40

>> So, never say never to anything involved

01:10:42

with coaching.

01:10:43

>> No, I think you've always got to keep

01:10:44

your options open. You know, that's

01:10:47

that's the um the thing, you know, it's

01:10:51

um you know, I finished with Wales. I

01:10:54

was going to come back home. Um we had

01:10:57

some time as a family planned. Um we

01:11:01

were going to spend some time in Spain

01:11:04

and France. Um, Brun had some mates that

01:11:07

he went to school with. Um, and they

01:11:10

were all over there with a girlfriend.

01:11:11

So, we had good friend of mine's got had

01:11:13

a shadow in the south of France. So,

01:11:16

yeah. So, there was 17 of us there

01:11:20

>> um sort of celebrating all these boys

01:11:22

30th birthday which was which was

01:11:25

unbelievable actually. So um

01:11:29

yeah uh so we'll just yeah see what

01:11:33

happens in terms of um

01:11:36

that um

01:11:38

yeah so had you know had that time and

01:11:40

then you know we

01:11:43

bit of time in in Fiji and stuff and

01:11:45

just doing lots of travel and things.

01:11:47

Yeah.

01:11:48

>> Well maybe you need to make yourself

01:11:49

more available. Get a LinkedIn page or

01:11:50

something. I had to track you down by

01:11:52

going through your daughter.

01:11:54

>> Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I don't know.

01:11:56

Yeah, look, I I was Yeah, we're going to

01:11:59

three weeks in Uruguay doing a doing a

01:12:01

bit of bit of coaching there as uh

01:12:04

>> um you that was headlines in there in in

01:12:08

the papers in Wales and in terms of that

01:12:12

where I was asked by someone involved in

01:12:14

World Rugby um you know, would you be

01:12:17

interested to go into to Uruguay for

01:12:19

three weeks just to help with some of

01:12:21

their their national academy and one of

01:12:24

their club sites? And I kind of looked

01:12:25

at and went, you know, the game has been

01:12:27

brilliant for me and here's an

01:12:29

opportunity for me to give a little bit

01:12:30

back. And all of a sudden headlines in

01:12:33

in um Wales online Gatlin take shock new

01:12:37

position. I went, "Oh my god, I'm just

01:12:39

going over there as a consultant for

01:12:40

three weeks,

01:12:42

you know, to help have a look at their

01:12:44

academy and and uh team called Penroll

01:12:48

who was playing in Super Rugby South

01:12:50

America. They ended up winning the

01:12:51

competition. So I was there for the last

01:12:53

game of semi-final and final was you

01:12:55

know great experience great experience

01:12:58

for me in terms of uh looking at

01:13:00

something different looking at a

01:13:01

different culture uh and I loved you see

01:13:06

uh Argentina when they the celebrations

01:13:10

when they win a match and I was lucky

01:13:11

enough to be in the change room with

01:13:13

this team from Uruguay from um Monte

01:13:16

Video um afterwards where they jumping

01:13:19

up and down and sharing the sort of

01:13:21

Latin temperament and stuff, you know,

01:13:23

incredible experience. So, um yeah, so

01:13:26

we'll just we'll just see what happens.

01:13:28

>> Yeah. How good. I mentioned on Instagram

01:13:30

you're coming. I've got a couple of

01:13:31

random questions here. Um hardest

01:13:33

conversation you've ever had with a

01:13:34

player.

01:13:35

>> Oh, Brian O'Driscoll.

01:13:36

>> Really?

01:13:37

>> Yeah. Um

01:13:38

>> you love like I've I've heard you say

01:13:41

like he's one of your your top five

01:13:42

goats.

01:13:43

>> Oh yeah, absolutely. Uh I I look I gave

01:13:46

him uh his first international cap as I

01:13:48

think as a 19 year old 18 or 19 year old

01:13:52

and then for to be involved with the

01:13:54

Lions to be the first person that um

01:13:58

uh didn't select him when he was fit and

01:14:01

available um in Australia in 2013 for in

01:14:05

the third test. You know that was a

01:14:07

really really tough and challenging um

01:14:10

conversation. But like I said, the way

01:14:13

that he conducted himself, way he

01:14:15

handled himself, I got a huge amount of

01:14:16

respect from him

01:14:18

>> um as a player and as a person. But I,

01:14:20

you know, I learned a I learned a lot

01:14:23

from that situation. And the thing

01:14:27

about, you know, even you've been around

01:14:28

the game for a long time and you getting

01:14:30

I I think you're always learning. You

01:14:31

always got to keep an open mind. It's

01:14:33

always u life's always about learning

01:14:36

experiences and and you know I continue

01:14:38

to learn all the time and don't know

01:14:40

everything about the game and you know

01:14:41

things happen and and you know that was

01:14:44

a a moment for me an experience for me

01:14:47

that you know I learned a lot but it was

01:14:49

you know difficult and challenging

01:14:50

>> like what what did you learn from that

01:14:52

situation? Um

01:14:54

I learned that um probably afterwards

01:14:58

after the second we'd won the first test

01:15:00

we' close we' lost the second test um

01:15:04

and

01:15:07

probably should have said to the um the

01:15:11

media team they they we never had a

01:15:14

conversation about who the cuz I used to

01:15:16

kind of allow people to have their own

01:15:18

autonomy in doing lots of things and and

01:15:20

they made they genuinely made really

01:15:22

good decisions.

01:15:24

Sam Wbertton had been injured after the

01:15:26

second test and

01:15:29

um we put Brian O'Driscoll up on the

01:15:32

Sunday after the second test for for

01:15:34

media and if they asked me

01:15:38

um I probably said it's not the best

01:15:41

choice to

01:15:43

>> to put him up because would have given

01:15:44

us a little bit of breathing space and

01:15:48

um I knew there was going to be

01:15:50

potentially a discussion because we had

01:15:52

had um other players coming back fit

01:15:53

from injury and we'd lost that second

01:15:56

test and by doing by Brian being up uh

01:16:01

in the media then people just assumed

01:16:03

that oh he's he's going to be selected

01:16:06

for the third test there's a good chance

01:16:08

with he's going to be selected as

01:16:09

captain and so they kind of went on that

01:16:12

>> um narrative

01:16:13

>> that narrative in that road by the time

01:16:14

the team got announced on the Wednesday

01:16:17

um you know so uh and that's something

01:16:21

that I've always tried

01:16:23

I've prided myself how do you control

01:16:24

the narrative, you know, and control the

01:16:27

narrative is always get out on the front

01:16:29

foot, you know, get out there first, try

01:16:31

and control the story. Um because once

01:16:35

you get um leaks and stuff and things go

01:16:38

out then um you're always playing

01:16:40

catchup

01:16:41

>> and so you know that I learned a lot

01:16:43

from that. Um and probably there was so

01:16:46

much negativity around that

01:16:49

uh selection as well in terms of leaving

01:16:52

Brian out. Um I can remember on the

01:16:56

Friday so we trained we have had a

01:16:59

couple of days of trained had a couple

01:17:01

two training sessions on the Wednesday

01:17:02

and another training session on Thursday

01:17:04

and a captain's run on the Friday and we

01:17:06

just took the 23 to the the training

01:17:09

ground on the on the Friday for the

01:17:12

captain's run and and I I should have

01:17:14

taken everybody I should have made

01:17:16

everyone feel um how important it was

01:17:19

that they were involved on on that

01:17:21

Friday and it was something that because

01:17:23

Brian wasn't in the 23, you know, he did

01:17:25

say he said to me afterwards, he said,

01:17:27

you know, was the first time I didn't

01:17:29

feel a part of it by not being involved

01:17:31

in that 23. And I kind of took that on

01:17:33

board and going, you know, just how

01:17:35

important everyone is where I kind of

01:17:38

looked at it from a different angle and

01:17:39

saying, look, there's so much negativity

01:17:41

about this selection and leaving Brian

01:17:43

out.

01:17:43

>> Was it better just to focus on the 23 in

01:17:46

terms of their preparation? Uh you again

01:17:48

I didn't get it right and in terms even

01:17:51

though we you know we won the game

01:17:52

comfortably and then the first question

01:17:54

I get in the press conference afterwards

01:17:55

oh Warren you must feel justified in

01:17:57

leaving Brian and Driscoll out

01:18:00

>> if I'd said yes that would have been the

01:18:02

headlines the next day and I went no not

01:18:03

at all you know it's it's the hardest

01:18:05

thing I've ever had to do as a coach it

01:18:07

doesn't mean that it was still the right

01:18:09

decision doesn't mean I don't question

01:18:10

myself was that the the right call and

01:18:12

the right decision so you always

01:18:16

you always trying to play a little bit

01:18:18

of catchup, you know, people trying to

01:18:19

catch you out, trying to look for a

01:18:21

headline and stuff. And in the past, the

01:18:23

times I got myself in trouble because I

01:18:26

have prided myself in trying to be as

01:18:28

honest as I can. Um, I don't think

01:18:30

there's ever been an agenda. If you ask

01:18:32

me a question, I will, uh, you know,

01:18:36

hopefully tell you the truth or give you

01:18:37

an honest opinion. Um and but and

01:18:41

sometimes people don't always like that,

01:18:43

you know, and that's kind of way spin

01:18:44

away. Like I give you a really good

01:18:46

example of that is in World Cup in 2011,

01:18:49

I thought um

01:18:53

the All Blacks deserve to win the World

01:18:54

Cup in 2011 because they were the best

01:18:56

team in the World Cup. I thought France

01:18:58

were fairly hard done by with um a few

01:19:01

decisions in that final, you know, and

01:19:04

it went right down to the wire and I got

01:19:06

absolutely

01:19:08

[Laughter]

01:19:11

bollocked by social media for saying

01:19:13

that, you know, going well cuz I cuz I

01:19:16

can remember at the time uh Brit and I

01:19:19

were uh I had a couple of tickets for

01:19:21

the final and you know the semi-final

01:19:23

and we played France and Sam Orbin had

01:19:25

been sent off And uh so I gave um my two

01:19:29

tickets to the final to to Sam Orbit and

01:19:31

his dad and we were watching the game at

01:19:33

the beach and at Halime Brin was only

01:19:35

only young at the at the time. Um and I

01:19:39

said to him, "Why don't you watch this

01:19:40

game a little bit differently in the

01:19:42

second half?" And he said, "What's

01:19:43

that?" And I said, "Um,

01:19:46

let's watch it from how I might

01:19:48

sometimes look at that. Let's watch it

01:19:49

from, you know, a French perspective,

01:19:51

thinking we're French supporters." And

01:19:52

Bring goes, "Okay." So in the second

01:19:54

half goes, "Oh, that should have been a

01:19:57

penalty against Richard Mcc." And I

01:19:59

Yeah. Oh, that should be a penalty

01:20:00

against all black. Yeah. Oh, that should

01:20:03

have been Yeah. So, um it's Yeah. You

01:20:08

kind of uh

01:20:10

Yeah. You You always learn lessons in

01:20:13

life, don't you? Kind of. You know, as a

01:20:16

Kiwi, sometimes

01:20:16

>> you know your audience.

01:20:17

>> Yeah. Know your audience. Sometimes you

01:20:19

go, you know, the All Black deserve to

01:20:21

win the World Cup, but thought France

01:20:22

were a bit unlucky. Well, maybe don't

01:20:25

say that at home in New Zealand, you

01:20:26

know, kind of cuz we are as as Kiwis.

01:20:31

There's there's our strength is is our

01:20:33

isolation and being involved and, you

01:20:35

know, the success we've had in not just

01:20:38

rugby, but all sports and lots of

01:20:40

different things. But it it it's also a

01:20:43

weakness as well, you know, kind of that

01:20:44

isolation and that naivity and not

01:20:47

understanding things. But it's probably

01:20:50

not the right time to get into that sort

01:20:52

of conversation. Yeah.

01:20:53

>> Do you do you do you load the media?

01:20:55

>> I mean, it's it's a necessary e evil

01:20:57

with your job, isn't it? But you Yeah.

01:21:00

What are your views on them?

01:21:02

>> Oh, uh, it's it's the hardest thing in

01:21:04

in the game to be involved with at the

01:21:06

moment. kind of

01:21:09

and I I don't know what the answer is

01:21:12

here because the with the media at times

01:21:15

you get um

01:21:18

you hear them being critical of players

01:21:21

who are you know trained in media. They

01:21:25

don't say anything.

01:21:27

very um

01:21:30

neutral kind of like very you know in

01:21:32

terms of the the responses they get and

01:21:34

and and they're looking for some color

01:21:36

and they're looking for people to make

01:21:38

but then that opens the players up to

01:21:41

criticism you know social media

01:21:43

criticism the players you've read a lot

01:21:45

of this thing and you feel for the

01:21:47

players sometimes and you go look I

01:21:49

don't know what the balance is but you

01:21:50

know kind of like you can't have it both

01:21:52

ways you can't kind of have where You

01:21:55

can be critical of players or you write

01:21:58

a story and social media critical of

01:22:01

players and and then players sort of

01:22:03

clam up and don't give

01:22:05

>> honest answers and look I don't know I

01:22:08

don't know what the answer is there but

01:22:09

it's it's it's it's different um and

01:22:14

probably you go back a number of years

01:22:17

where you could have had

01:22:20

um a relationship a really good

01:22:23

relationship with journalists that you

01:22:24

you trusted and respected and you could

01:22:27

talk off the record and know that they

01:22:29

wouldn't stitch you up, but they're kind

01:22:31

of few and far between now in terms of

01:22:33

that. And look, it's I think if you

01:22:36

spoke to all,

01:22:38

>> not just not just in rugby, but a lot of

01:22:40

people involved in in the high profile

01:22:42

sport and say, you know, what's the most

01:22:43

challenging thing that you find, they'll

01:22:45

say it's the media and kind media or

01:22:47

social media and dealing with all those

01:22:49

sorts of things.

01:22:52

They've got this cartoon here from um is

01:22:53

it Rod Emerson? Is that the cartoonist

01:22:56

>> from uh

01:22:57

>> from the New Zealand Herald? Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:59

So, this is um during the the Lions

01:23:01

tour. Is this the 2015 Lions tour? The

01:23:03

one

01:23:03

>> 2017.

01:23:04

>> 2017. That was a drawn a drawn series.

01:23:07

Is that that one or

01:23:08

>> Yeah.

01:23:08

>> Yeah. So, what's the story about that?

01:23:10

What's the What's the What's the whole

01:23:12

backstory with the clown nose? The clown

01:23:14

thing.

01:23:15

>> It's a It's a very mean cartoon, isn't

01:23:17

it?

01:23:18

>> It's not the greatest in the world.

01:23:19

Yeah. Well,

01:23:23

I kind of it goes back to where uh

01:23:30

there was an all uh before Australia

01:23:32

played the All Blacks and Michael

01:23:37

Checker was the New Zealand Herald did a

01:23:39

thing with Michael Checker

01:23:42

um being portrayed as a clown and I was

01:23:45

asked about that and I just thought look

01:23:48

I I I just thought

01:23:51

and at the time I don't remember the the

01:23:53

um

01:23:55

New Zealand fans were booing Quaid

01:23:58

Cooper and and obviously Michael Checker

01:24:02

and I just thought

01:24:04

as as a as a fan of rugby I just thought

01:24:06

it was a little bit o over the top and

01:24:10

so I made some comment I just thought

01:24:12

you know that wasn't acceptable that

01:24:16

that people were booing sort of Quay

01:24:19

Cooper and and I thought the the Michael

01:24:21

Checker uh clown thing that was done

01:24:24

before that and so

01:24:26

obviously New Zealand Herald didn't like

01:24:29

me criticizing them and decided to

01:24:32

portray me uh in the same vein I

01:24:34

suppose. Yeah.

01:24:35

>> And when when when you open the paper

01:24:37

and see that or someone in your team

01:24:39

shows that to you how do you feel? Is it

01:24:41

is it hurtful? Is it embarrassing?

01:24:43

>> Does it piss you off?

01:24:44

>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah,

01:24:48

and I I think that that

01:24:51

there's there's no doubt in my mind um

01:24:54

having spoken to people that I know and

01:24:56

and and trust and and and whatever that

01:24:59

that um

01:25:02

journalists in New Zealand her were

01:25:04

given some in inside information on the

01:25:06

All Blacks. Um, and which is, you know,

01:25:09

it's probably the way sport's gone. And

01:25:12

part of the re and part of the

01:25:15

the the deal for that was to try and um

01:25:19

put me off my stride and upset me, you

01:25:21

know.

01:25:22

>> Um, and be critical of myself and that.

01:25:26

Yeah.

01:25:26

>> Did it work?

01:25:29

>> No, it just made me more determined. It

01:25:31

kind of I didn't enjoy the tour, you

01:25:34

know. Well, I didn't enjoy the tour, but

01:25:37

I was really conscious that um the the

01:25:40

interesting thing is that all the stuff

01:25:42

that happens, like the New Zealand

01:25:43

Herald stuff, um the staff would have

01:25:46

seen that, but the players had no idea

01:25:48

that sort of stuff's going on really.

01:25:49

They don't really take much notice in

01:25:51

terms of reading that. But, um

01:25:54

>> yeah, but I did wear I I was I I did

01:25:57

wear a clown nose.

01:25:59

>> You do a pre press conference after

01:26:01

that. Oh, that was after that. Whose

01:26:03

whose idea was that?

01:26:04

>> It was mine actually. Yeah,

01:26:06

>> I was going to do I was going to do it

01:26:07

in Wellington after the second test when

01:26:09

we won the the second test. Um but it

01:26:11

wasn't it wasn't the right time cuz it

01:26:14

was the game where Sunny Bill Williams

01:26:15

had been sent off and he kind of like I

01:26:18

didn't want to be disrespectful

01:26:20

>> to to him and what had happened in that

01:26:22

occasion. But I decided to put it on for

01:26:25

the third test anyway. So um

01:26:28

you know it's

01:26:30

was it Yeah. And I think if I think uh a

01:26:34

few of the photographers were weren't

01:26:36

happy because they they missed it, you

01:26:37

know, they missed the Kashmir wearing

01:26:39

the clown nose into the press conference

01:26:41

and I I only I walked in with this clown

01:26:44

nose on and sat down and then basically

01:26:46

took it off and so I don't think many

01:26:48

people got a photo of me doing that. But

01:26:51

look, I don't know what they were, you

01:26:54

know, what they were trying to do. Yeah,

01:26:56

it was definitely it was a um concerted

01:27:00

effort by some people to try and put me

01:27:03

off my stride and upset me um during

01:27:06

that during that tour.

01:27:08

>> Yeah.

01:27:09

I'm probably projecting here, but if

01:27:11

that was me, if I was in your shoes and

01:27:13

I' I'd played 140 games for my province

01:27:16

and made the All Blacks and been in the

01:27:17

All Blacks for four years and um was

01:27:20

playing my trade overseas and doing it

01:27:22

very well. Um I think I'd be [ __ ] off.

01:27:25

>> Yeah.

01:27:27

>> Yeah. And and I I can't imagine how it

01:27:29

would be for your family as well, like

01:27:30

your kids.

01:27:31

>> Well, I think it was a there was a

01:27:33

journalist People were not that happy.

01:27:35

there's a journalist that

01:27:37

um had written a lot of stuff on that on

01:27:39

that there but never asked a question in

01:27:42

a press conference. Um

01:27:45

and you know it's one

01:27:49

I I would I one organization that I

01:27:51

would never deal with again.

01:27:53

>> Yeah. I'd never do a sorry for them for

01:27:55

for whatever reason. So um

01:27:59

but

01:28:00

>> what or can you say what organization or

01:28:02

no?

01:28:02

>> New Zealand Herald.

01:28:03

>> All right. On the Herald. Yeah. Yeah, I

01:28:04

never I'd never ever do a story with

01:28:06

them again. I just think they're trash.

01:28:08

And

01:28:09

>> where I thought Sky were great in terms

01:28:11

of way they covered stuff, I thought

01:28:12

they were fair. And there were other

01:28:14

outlets I thought were pretty good. Um

01:28:16

>> it's quite I've had um Steve Williams on

01:28:18

the podcast. Tiger Woods, old candy had

01:28:20

him on a couple of times and he um

01:28:22

>> he he he he won't do anything with stuff

01:28:25

because of some stories they wrote when

01:28:27

Tigers and Fidelity came to light

01:28:28

basically accusing him of being

01:28:29

involved.

01:28:30

>> And people at Stuff are like, "Oh no,

01:28:32

those people aren't there anymore." He

01:28:33

doesn't care.

01:28:34

>> Yeah.

01:28:34

>> It's the organization.

01:28:35

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:28:36

>> Yeah. That stuff I don't think these

01:28:38

journalists necessarily have um they

01:28:40

don't necessarily realize or give much

01:28:42

thought into how deep this stuff can cut

01:28:45

because you're dealing with people.

01:28:46

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think you got to be

01:28:48

careful and you got to be it's not just

01:28:51

um I'm I'm a little bit got thicker skin

01:28:54

than probably than most people and and

01:28:57

you know like pretty strong but it's the

01:29:00

impact it has on I see it I've seen it

01:29:04

with players. I've seen it with the

01:29:06

players keep quite strong but it's their

01:29:08

it's also in their partner and then

01:29:10

their mom and dad and brother and

01:29:12

sisters and wider sort of groups you

01:29:13

know they kind of um they can take that

01:29:17

sort of stuff more to heart. I mean, I

01:29:19

know that um

01:29:21

with that clown stuff there, you know,

01:29:24

and there are times where my son and

01:29:26

daughter wanted to say, "Dad, we need we

01:29:28

want to go on and say just look." I

01:29:30

said, "Just let it be. It'll it'll be

01:29:33

there." But um

01:29:36

yeah, I can understand where where

01:29:38

people won't deal with certain

01:29:39

journalists or um outlets because of um

01:29:44

what's happened. And and I I fully

01:29:46

understand that and respect that. and

01:29:48

you know have been in that same

01:29:49

situation myself. Yeah.

01:29:50

>> Yeah.

01:29:52

>> Well, thanks for sharing that and

01:29:53

revisiting it.

01:29:54

>> Yeah.

01:29:55

>> Yeah.

01:29:57

>> No. Yeah. It was um Yeah. I look it was

01:30:01

it was it was it was tough. It was

01:30:03

probably

01:30:05

>> probably two 217

01:30:08

uh 221.

01:30:11

It's kind of the first time from the

01:30:14

I have this different view of the Lions.

01:30:16

I I have this romantic view of the

01:30:18

Lions. I I see the Lions as being an

01:30:20

opportunity to celebrate the game.

01:30:23

>> Uh because you bring the players

01:30:24

together from from four nations and

01:30:26

you're playing away from home normally

01:30:28

against one of the best teams in the

01:30:29

world. And I think three of the four

01:30:31

tours I was involved was against world

01:30:32

champions

01:30:34

and you realize that there's this chance

01:30:37

to to to do something special in the

01:30:40

game. and probably 217 221 was the first

01:30:43

time I kind of went um it's almost

01:30:48

something that the winning

01:30:51

was more important than anything else.

01:30:53

Winning was more important the game and

01:30:54

I just think that when you look at the

01:30:56

bigger picture and you look at what the

01:30:58

Alliance series or Lions tour can do, it

01:31:02

can do some magical things that are that

01:31:04

I think are bigger than just just

01:31:06

winning. and and I and I would really

01:31:09

encourage people to be involved in that

01:31:11

and think about that um and and and be a

01:31:16

part of that and yeah look winning is

01:31:18

really really important and but I was

01:31:20

kind of I thought we'd gone a certain

01:31:22

way you know and that's a good example

01:31:24

where um yeah even like the the very

01:31:30

first game the headliner New Zealand

01:31:32

Herald we're playing against New Zealand

01:31:35

Barbarians and Fungare for a my son's

01:31:38

plane and I

01:31:43

had a coffee with him the the day I went

01:31:45

to press conference it was you know

01:31:48

tough for us we just arrived New Zealand

01:31:49

on the Wednesday we had a training

01:31:50

session on the Thursday we we fly to

01:31:53

sorry we drive to Fong on the on the

01:31:55

Friday we're playing New Zealand barians

01:31:56

on the Saturday so really limited

01:31:58

preparation and I said to him

01:32:01

they said you was a conversation with

01:32:02

Bren and I just said oh look we had a

01:32:04

cup of coffee and I just

01:32:06

Um, we didn't really talk much about the

01:32:08

game. I just said, "Oh, mate, good luck

01:32:10

tomorrow." I said, "You you might have

01:32:11

to make a few tackles." That's all I

01:32:13

said. Headline the next day in New

01:32:15

Zealand herald Gatland to target

01:32:17

Barbarian's weakness dash his son.

01:32:22

I said, "Wow,

01:32:23

>> two for the price of one."

01:32:24

>> I said, "Where the hell did that come

01:32:25

out of?" Yeah. You know, Warren Gatlin

01:32:28

will the head the first paragraph

01:32:29

something like Warren Gatlin will

01:32:31

instruct Ben Tio to run on an angle at

01:32:34

his at his son because that's the way

01:32:36

the Lions are going to play on tour. And

01:32:38

I'm going okay,

01:32:40

you know, right from day one, I knew

01:32:41

exactly what I'm dealing with and and

01:32:42

and that that continued right right

01:32:44

through um right through the whole tour.

01:32:48

M

01:32:48

>> and but like I said, you kind of, you

01:32:51

know, you you you

01:32:54

um you put up walls a little bit and you

01:32:56

you you learn to expect that sort of

01:33:00

stuff and and deal with it.

01:33:02

>> Was that hard on Brin? It's a pretty

01:33:05

mean thing to write. It's pretty shitty,

01:33:06

isn't it?

01:33:07

>> Yeah, I think it was. He was he was

01:33:09

okay. I think it was my my wife and

01:33:12

daughter were the ones who

01:33:15

>> were a little bit more animated about

01:33:17

it. Yeah.

01:33:18

>> And Trudy's a redhead, isn't she? You

01:33:20

know, don't mess with a fiery redhead.

01:33:22

>> I know. The only thing I'm scared of is

01:33:24

she's about, you know, 5'2 with red

01:33:26

hair. Yeah. So, um yeah, she she can be

01:33:30

um Yeah.

01:33:31

>> Yeah.

01:33:31

>> Fairly tough.

01:33:33

>> We haven't talked much about your time

01:33:34

in Wales. Um it's incredible. So your

01:33:36

your first stint there uh 12 years

01:33:38

finished in 2019. Um longest serving

01:33:41

Wales coach ever. And then there's um

01:33:43

they named a gate a g a a gate after

01:33:45

you.

01:33:45

>> Yeah.

01:33:46

>> Gatland's gate at Principality Stadium.

01:33:48

>> Yeah.

01:33:49

>> That's a massive honor.

01:33:51

>> Yeah. Look, I loved my time there. Um

01:33:54

it was um made some great friends, some

01:33:58

some great had some great experiences.

01:34:00

Uh

01:34:02

>> yeah, and kind of Yeah. um

01:34:08

I suppose um being involved with a team

01:34:12

that there weren't a lot of expectations

01:34:14

and we kind of everyone grew um as a

01:34:18

team and we you when you're dealing with

01:34:20

a a nation like Wales with such a small

01:34:24

playing base, you're going you're going

01:34:25

to have the ups and downs. you're going

01:34:27

to have um you know smallest playing

01:34:30

base of any t tier one nation in terms

01:34:32

of the numbers and stuff and you got

01:34:34

four professional sides but still a lot

01:34:38

of with a lot of foreign uh input in

01:34:41

terms of number of foreign players

01:34:44

and

01:34:47

um yeah we I think I think over that

01:34:49

period we punched massively above our

01:34:50

weight you know in terms of the success

01:34:52

that we had but um you know it was

01:34:54

always always tough and really proud of

01:34:57

what we achieved, you know, particularly

01:35:00

uh the cycles that we had and in

01:35:01

particularly in World Cups anyway.

01:35:04

>> Oh yeah, some of those achievements,

01:35:05

four Six Nations titles, three Grand

01:35:07

Slams. Um yeah, what are you proudest of

01:35:10

from your time in Wales?

01:35:13

>> Um yeah, probably probably

01:35:16

that that sort of t Yeah,

01:35:19

>> the titles. Yeah, I the the first you I

01:35:24

went there in 2008 and won won a grand

01:35:26

slam and and

01:35:29

that was a little with a bit of luck you

01:35:31

know you always need in all sport you

01:35:33

need some some luck but the first game

01:35:34

was against England away way way away

01:35:36

way away from home we hadn't won there

01:35:38

in Twickenham in 20 odd years and um

01:35:43

and I can remember in the first half we

01:35:45

talked about being smart playing a bit

01:35:48

of territory but we we kicked poorly in

01:35:50

the first half and kept a lot of ball

01:35:51

away

01:35:53

and at Halime we were down 196 at Halime

01:35:57

and we held uh an the English wing um

01:36:02

Paul Saki we held him up over over the

01:36:04

line and if he had scored

01:36:08

100% England would have won the game

01:36:10

>> because it would have been 25 we got it

01:36:13

we held on we got into halftime and we

01:36:16

changed

01:36:17

uh a little bit tactically where we

01:36:19

wanted to attack through the 13 channel

01:36:21

kept a bit more ball in hand and we

01:36:24

dominated the second half I think

01:36:26

territory 75% territory in possession he

01:36:29

ended up winning 2619 and coming down

01:36:32

the stairs at twigum and a Welsh

01:36:36

reporter walks what Graham Henry

01:36:40

was known as the great redeemer what are

01:36:42

you going to be known as and I looked at

01:36:44

I went the lucky bastard so

01:36:48

that was my first So yeah, um we had a

01:36:51

couple of good wins against England at

01:36:53

Twickerland which were always uh good

01:36:55

some some good success against France

01:36:57

and obviously

01:37:00

>> I I I loved I loved my um time in in the

01:37:05

in the World Cup. It's kind of

01:37:06

international was rugby is is is really

01:37:10

challenging from the limited preparation

01:37:12

time and there's a huge amount of

01:37:14

expectation and you got um and you're

01:37:17

really under under scrutiny under the

01:37:20

spotlight in terms of u performance and

01:37:24

results. Uh, and what I love about the

01:37:26

World Cup is having that time together

01:37:27

where you it's it's the one time in in a

01:37:30

cycle where you feel like you're almost

01:37:32

like going back to a club side where

01:37:33

you've got like pre-season warm-up games

01:37:36

and stuff and you could

01:37:37

>> prepare a team properly. And so I kind

01:37:39

of, you know, for me maybe um that's

01:37:43

something I'd like to potentially be

01:37:44

involved with is, you know, maybe the

01:37:46

next challenge is be involved with a

01:37:49

team um building leading up to a World

01:37:52

Cup. I think um the experiences that

01:37:54

I've had in terms of um with Wales and

01:37:57

um and probably like I said punching

01:38:01

hugely above the expectations and above

01:38:03

our weight is something that I'd like to

01:38:05

bring some of that experience in and

01:38:07

helping

01:38:08

>> maybe another another country involved

01:38:10

in the World Cup in 27.

01:38:12

>> Brilliant. Yeah. Is there anything that

01:38:15

keeps you awake at night or that you

01:38:16

still ruminate on? Like you I've had

01:38:19

Lori Mains on the podcast and he he said

01:38:21

he still thinks about the 95 World Cup

01:38:23

often. It's 30 30 years ago. anything

01:38:26

for you like close misses or missed

01:38:28

opportunities

01:38:29

>> or you sort of at peace with how

01:38:31

everything

01:38:34

>> uh

01:38:37

I think

01:38:38

um

01:38:40

the World Cup in 2011 and Sam Wolverton

01:38:44

being sent off I thought it was

01:38:47

you know whether it was the right

01:38:48

decision but when you got a couple of

01:38:50

million couple of billion people

01:38:51

watching a game you know in sort of 17

01:38:53

minutes

01:38:54

>> Mhm. You know, you could argue, you

01:38:55

know, should that been a yellow card or

01:38:56

should have that been

01:38:58

>> Yeah, I thought that was was a little

01:39:00

bit tough and

01:39:02

um

01:39:04

I thought I thought we would have made a

01:39:05

made the final. So, kind of probably um

01:39:09

it's probably been a couple of those

01:39:12

those situations, but

01:39:13

>> you don't dwell too much.

01:39:14

>> No, I think you can't dwell too much.

01:39:16

You got to you kind of got to look

01:39:18

forward, you know, you kind of

01:39:19

>> you can't change things. You can't

01:39:21

change the past. And um

01:39:24

yeah, you just and you got to somehow

01:39:27

try and create your own luck and and and

01:39:30

do things as well. So um yeah, if you if

01:39:34

you if you dwell too much and you start,

01:39:36

you know, keep looking back too often,

01:39:39

you know, it's going to it's going to um

01:39:41

eat you up, I think.

01:39:42

>> Well, it's it's not it's not helpful.

01:39:44

And you can't change anything anyway,

01:39:46

can you?

01:39:46

>> No. No. And I remember um I give you

01:39:50

talk about not changing anything. um

01:39:53

sitting in the uh in the bus with Andy

01:39:55

Irvine in 2013. We're playing the

01:39:57

Barbarians in Hong Kong

01:40:00

and we'd booked time to go to um the

01:40:05

match and we had allowed an hour and a

01:40:09

an hour 20. So we were meeting something

01:40:11

like as a a team meeting like an hour

01:40:15

and a two hours or two and a half hours

01:40:17

before before kickoff. The analyst had

01:40:20

gone to the game

01:40:22

um earlier and one analyst rang me and

01:40:26

said, "It's only taken us 15 minutes to

01:40:29

get from the hotel to the ground. We've

01:40:30

allowed for an hour or 3/4 an hour,

01:40:33

something like that." And I've gone,

01:40:34

"Oh, okay." So, I've put the meeting

01:40:37

back, the team meeting back half an hour

01:40:40

or 45 minutes or something. And um so we

01:40:44

do that, get on the bus to go to the

01:40:47

game and we are stuck in um

01:40:54

traffic, aren't we?

01:40:57

And we arrive we arrive about 20 25

01:40:59

minutes before kickoff. It was a it was

01:41:02

a it was a brilliant experience. Andy

01:41:04

Ivine's sitting next to me going

01:41:08

the bus driver, "Go there. Go there.

01:41:09

Trying to get us there quicker." and he

01:41:11

turns around to me and he goes, "I can't

01:41:13

believe how come you are,

01:41:16

Andy, I can't change it." You know, we

01:41:18

it is what it is, you know. Why why am I

01:41:20

getting upset about something that I

01:41:22

can't can't really change, you know? So,

01:41:24

um and we went there. Uh the boys were

01:41:28

brilliant. We had physios working on the

01:41:30

bus, got changed on the bus, taped up on

01:41:32

the bus. We went out there uh and we end

01:41:34

up winning the game by about 70 points.

01:41:37

It was one of those things that you know

01:41:40

sometimes from adversity it comes comes

01:41:42

a positive out of it and using using

01:41:44

that to say um you know whatever anyone

01:41:47

throws at us um you know um you're able

01:41:51

to deal with it so I kind of try to turn

01:41:53

it was a plan thing

01:41:56

I completely cocked up in terms of

01:41:58

timings for that

01:41:59

>> well there's all sorts of sayings like

01:42:00

control the controllables you know

01:42:03

>> um when people look back on Warren

01:42:04

Gatlin and say 50 years what do What do

01:42:07

you hope they'll say?

01:42:09

>> Oh,

01:42:10

>> suppose this is in regard to your

01:42:11

coaching, correct?

01:42:12

>> Yeah, I don't know. I

01:42:15

I've prided myself and I'm trying to be

01:42:18

uh straight up and as honest as I could

01:42:20

be. Um like I said, that sometimes

01:42:23

doesn't always go down with people in in

01:42:25

terms of that. Um

01:42:27

and then people would

01:42:30

term me as being stubborn, you know. Um

01:42:34

but I kind of

01:42:38

like I don't know just um I'd like to

01:42:41

think that

01:42:45

someone who's punched you know have

01:42:48

taken teams have punched above their

01:42:49

weight in terms of you know when I was

01:42:51

first involved when the game went

01:42:54

professional in conict and Ireland and

01:42:57

um you know we we did a a lot better

01:43:00

than people expected and then with

01:43:01

Ireland. I'd like to think that I was

01:43:03

involved with a period where it started

01:43:05

of the, you know, a reign of

01:43:08

sort of making Ireland more professional

01:43:10

and success. I went to Wasp when they

01:43:12

were bottom of the premiership and we

01:43:13

won three premierships in a row and

01:43:16

Europe and stuff and and Wales. So, you

01:43:18

know, some someone who's involved with

01:43:20

teams that was able to get hopefully the

01:43:22

best out of teams and and um

01:43:26

and you know, make them make them better

01:43:28

than what they were

01:43:30

>> character-wise. What are you still

01:43:31

working on as a man?

01:43:33

>> Oh, always trying to work on being

01:43:36

better.

01:43:38

Um

01:43:40

yeah, just um

01:43:44

yeah, you know, there's there's always

01:43:46

things that you can be better with and

01:43:47

and be

01:43:49

um

01:43:52

yeah, I I I think that u one of the

01:43:55

things that I've got to do

01:43:58

um since I've since I've been away and

01:44:01

come back is is making sure you that um

01:44:07

back and just making sure that I make

01:44:09

more more connections more often with

01:44:12

with with friends and family. You know,

01:44:13

probably when you're away, you it's easy

01:44:16

when you come back and you catch up with

01:44:17

people in there, but you know, it's

01:44:19

definitely something that that I'm

01:44:21

conscious of making sure that I, you

01:44:23

know, ring ring some friends a little um

01:44:27

more often, you know, catch up with them

01:44:29

for a drink or a coffee or around a golf

01:44:31

or something like that. I've got to be

01:44:33

more conscious of doing that because

01:44:34

that's

01:44:35

>> that that that is important.

01:44:37

>> How are you with the golf? Are you still

01:44:39

like extremely competitive with

01:44:40

everything you do or have you managed to

01:44:42

sort of um compartmentalize it and

01:44:46

>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't play I don't play. I

01:44:48

live when I lived in Wales, I lived on

01:44:50

uh it was two golf courses where we

01:44:52

lived and I hardly ever played them. So

01:44:54

I play more when I come back. Um

01:44:56

>> in terms of the the competitives, say

01:44:58

you're playing, I don't know, Connect

01:44:59

Four with your kids or something. Are

01:45:01

are you are you able to control the

01:45:03

competitiveness?

01:45:04

>> Yeah.

01:45:04

>> Yeah.

01:45:05

>> No, not really.

01:45:08

>> Yeah. Brin's we had a table tennis table

01:45:12

at home and for some reason all the way

01:45:16

grown. I still couldn't let Brin beat me

01:45:18

until he was able to actually beat me. I

01:45:19

think it was about he was about 13 at

01:45:21

the time. Um, you know, I used to just

01:45:24

muck around with him and then I'd get

01:45:25

competitive at the end and beat him like

01:45:27

2119 or something like 2120 and he used

01:45:30

to go absolutely mad. But, uh, and then

01:45:33

once he once he started beating me, I

01:45:35

couldn't beat him. So, uh, yeah, he's

01:45:38

he's probably worse than me actually.

01:45:40

So, uh,

01:45:42

>> doesn't fall far from the tree.

01:45:43

>> I know. Yeah, he's he's he's competitive

01:45:46

and he's got a group of mates and they

01:45:49

they get pissed off with him because he

01:45:51

seems to be able to beat them in

01:45:52

everything whe they're playing beer ping

01:45:54

pong or or whatever they're doing, you

01:45:56

know, in terms of uh competitions and

01:45:58

that. So, um

01:46:00

>> you guys are a different breed, I've had

01:46:02

um both um Grant and Ryan Fox on the

01:46:05

podcast and their their stories both

01:46:08

match up. Um Ryan said the the first

01:46:09

time he bet Grant off the stick in golf

01:46:11

like Grant didn't talk to him for a

01:46:13

couple of days.

01:46:15

>> What is it with you guys? You just like

01:46:17

competitive to the point where it's like

01:46:19

almost an issue.

01:46:20

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:46:22

>> Um how do you how do you personally

01:46:24

define happiness now?

01:46:26

>> What's happiness for Warren Gatlin?

01:46:30

Um,

01:46:33

I suppose waking up every day and not

01:46:35

having to worry about things, you know,

01:46:37

not worry about um,

01:46:40

yeah, I I I I need to,

01:46:44

like I said, I'm there are things I'm

01:46:45

doing at the moment in terms of um,

01:46:47

keeping me busy, but then making sure

01:46:49

that, you know, there's a focus and in

01:46:52

terms of going forward, I'm going to be

01:46:54

doing a little bit of doing a little bit

01:46:55

of stuff with world rugby over the next

01:46:56

six months, which will

01:46:59

cool to be involved in that. And then um

01:47:02

yeah, whatever that is, you know, I'm

01:47:04

kind of I'm not people say, oh, you

01:47:06

know, you need to I don't find it

01:47:09

difficult to make myself busy during the

01:47:10

day and and uh like whether that's going

01:47:14

to be playing a little bit more golf or

01:47:15

doing a bit more fishing or doing things

01:47:17

like catching up with some mates and

01:47:18

stuff. Um and maybe, you know, having

01:47:21

something that um I'll need to do. So I

01:47:26

I yeah I just I don't find it difficult

01:47:30

to make myself happy at the moment.

01:47:31

Yeah.

01:47:33

>> What's it's only been a very short time

01:47:34

since you've taken your your foot off

01:47:36

the gas. Um so at the moment what is

01:47:38

like a perfect day for you?

01:47:40

>> What's a perfect day?

01:47:41

>> Yeah.

01:47:42

>> Uh perfect day is wake up. The perfect

01:47:45

day has to be good weather at the beach.

01:47:47

You know uh I'm trying to do a bit of

01:47:49

exercise at the moment and doing some

01:47:51

stuff. So I kind of I've been I didn't

01:47:53

go for a walk this morning but been

01:47:55

getting up about sort of 5 half past 5

01:47:57

going for a couple of hours walk along

01:47:59

>> half past 5

01:48:01

>> you wake up naturally at half past 5 or

01:48:03

>> I haven't been going to bed uh too late

01:48:06

so um

01:48:08

yeah just try and do a couple of hours

01:48:10

in the morning as the sun comes up and

01:48:12

then get on with the day. Um, and then

01:48:17

been been busy. You know, there's always

01:48:19

emails and stuff and bits and pieces to

01:48:22

do and

01:48:24

uh just getting things organized. We've

01:48:25

been looking after the grandkids a

01:48:27

little bit, spending some time up in

01:48:28

here in Oakuckland. Um, and then yeah,

01:48:32

perfect day and make make sure it's

01:48:35

after 5:00 in terms of, you know, I

01:48:37

might have a beer or a glass of wine and

01:48:39

and and I've been doing a lot of cooking

01:48:41

as well. So, Trudy loves tidying up.

01:48:43

She's an unbelievable house cleaner in

01:48:46

terms of keeping the place tidy and

01:48:47

doing the dishes and stuff, but she does

01:48:49

she doesn't particularly enjoy cooking.

01:48:51

So, I've kind of been taking on a bit

01:48:52

more of that responsibility and been

01:48:54

enjoying it. And

01:48:55

>> what's the signature dish?

01:48:56

>> Uh

01:48:58

been doing a prawn linguini. Um

01:49:00

>> yum.

01:49:01

>> Yeah. So, that pretty good. Um I love I

01:49:04

love cooking a good roast as well and

01:49:06

stuff. Um, yeah, there's, you know, I'm

01:49:10

still looking at recipes and stuff and

01:49:11

things, so but I'm I'm not I'm not too

01:49:13

bad anyway. Yeah.

01:49:14

>> Yes. You seem to be enjoying this um

01:49:15

this chapter of your life. What What are

01:49:17

What are you like as a granddad? How how

01:49:19

are you different as a granddad to a

01:49:20

parent?

01:49:21

>> You spoil them rotten.

01:49:22

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:49:23

>> Ignore the parents instructions.

01:49:25

>> Uh I try not to. Yeah. So, uh yeah, try

01:49:31

try not to. But

01:49:34

yeah, my my granddaughter's kind of got

01:49:36

me twisted around a little finger at the

01:49:39

moment. So, um yeah, they enjoy enjoy

01:49:44

spending a lot of time with them and um

01:49:48

and seeing them grow. The biggest thing

01:49:50

that I found myself doing was um

01:49:55

as a parent you kind of don't you're not

01:49:58

you're not conscious well I wasn't

01:50:00

conscious of the stages that they were

01:50:02

going through you know kind of all of a

01:50:03

sudden they can do everything and and I

01:50:05

could could never remember back you know

01:50:08

>> when did they first start walking when

01:50:09

was their first talking but grandkids

01:50:12

you're kind of obsessed with you know

01:50:14

every little development every little

01:50:16

>> the milestones

01:50:17

>> yeah the milestones and the stages you

01:50:18

know just walking, talking, smiling, you

01:50:21

know, recognizing their hands and all

01:50:22

those sorts of things and uh

01:50:24

>> yeah, so um been enjoying uh spending as

01:50:29

much time with with the grandkids and

01:50:31

>> Yeah. Yeah.

01:50:32

>> How do you hope they see you as a man?

01:50:35

>> Uh

01:50:38

I don't I don't know. I I I I hope they

01:50:41

see me as someone who is um

01:50:47

you know can have a have a bit of fun

01:50:50

with them. I probably tease him a little

01:50:53

bit too much and stuff but things

01:50:57

chasing around. So my grandson's a bit,

01:50:59

you know, he loves to wrestle and that

01:51:02

my my they love chasing, you know, um

01:51:06

myself and my my wife around and uh uh

01:51:10

yeah, so

01:51:12

yeah, the the sporting thing

01:51:15

I hope they'll just see me as someone

01:51:17

who's a

01:51:19

um as a as a good person and and um

01:51:23

>> who's uh kind and and gentle. um but

01:51:28

also can be firm when they when they

01:51:30

need to be as well. Um and caring. I

01:51:33

mean this the sporting thing that that

01:51:35

that to me doesn't matter at all. It's

01:51:36

got no real impact on um how my

01:51:40

grandkids see me. I just want to be

01:51:41

someone who's you know sets a really

01:51:43

good example um to them. I think I think

01:51:47

treating myself hopefully done that with

01:51:49

with our kids and then hopefully we can

01:51:52

continue to do that with our grandkids

01:51:53

as well.

01:51:54

>> Are you good at being firm? Are you

01:51:56

scary when you're firm?

01:51:57

>> Oh, no. Trudy is

01:52:00

Trudy is a scary one. Um,

01:52:04

yeah. Look, I can Yeah, and I can

01:52:05

definitely be firm and um um hopefully

01:52:09

in the right way. Yeah. without being,

01:52:11

you know, um

01:52:13

despite what people um in Wales would

01:52:16

say about me, the the thing is the thing

01:52:19

I the thing I love is that there is a

01:52:22

perception that people have over you,

01:52:23

you know, because people in Wales would

01:52:25

see me as this uncaring um sort of um

01:52:31

cranky sort of you miserable bastard

01:52:34

sort of thing. And I I don't have a

01:52:37

problem with people that perception of

01:52:39

me because the the only people that

01:52:42

matter are your your friends and your

01:52:44

family and um and you and people

01:52:49

involved in in your teams and so you

01:52:52

know, excuse me.

01:52:55

Um I'm not I'm not sort of um too

01:52:58

worried what other people what the

01:52:59

impressions other people have of me.

01:53:01

>> Yeah. Well, they don't even know you.

01:53:03

It's almost based on a based on a

01:53:05

snapshot or yeah, a perception.

01:53:08

>> Perception or Yeah. I might say you uh

01:53:12

just, you know, potentially showing

01:53:17

very little or no emotion, you know, as

01:53:19

you're watching games, but

01:53:21

that's a time when the the cameras are

01:53:23

on you, but you know, there's definitely

01:53:24

emotion in between in and other

01:53:26

circumstances. So they the perception is

01:53:29

that you know you're

01:53:32

emotionless in terms of um not

01:53:35

displaying a lot of stuff but

01:53:38

and that can be people's opinion and

01:53:39

that and that's fine with me you know

01:53:41

kind of like that doesn't bother me you

01:53:43

know like I said it's the your friends

01:53:45

and family are the ones and and

01:53:47

teammates are the ones that really

01:53:48

matter

01:53:49

>> well they know if they come to you and

01:53:51

they they say you you know you being

01:53:53

grumpy or contankerous or whatever then

01:53:55

you probably have to do something about

01:53:56

about it. Absolutely.

01:53:57

>> So, it comes from a good place as well.

01:53:58

When was the last time you cried?

01:54:01

>> Um,

01:54:03

oh, probably a year ago.

01:54:06

>> Um,

01:54:09

uh,

01:54:10

yeah, it' be a year ago. And, uh, I know

01:54:13

I know the day actually. Um, St.

01:54:15

Patrick's Day. Um, good friend of um,

01:54:19

Britain's probably one of his best mates

01:54:20

was hit by a car and killed in Sydney.

01:54:24

And um so I kind of knew the day after

01:54:28

that and my wife told me. So yeah, it

01:54:31

was yeah it was it was tough and it was

01:54:34

really really tough on Brenn as well

01:54:35

because

01:54:37

>> he got the phone call and um from uh

01:54:42

good mate of his Mitch's partner and uh

01:54:44

you know Brinn was the one who then had

01:54:46

to make the phone calls to all his

01:54:47

mates. And so for someone of that age to

01:54:50

have to uh deal with and

01:54:54

um give tragic news to you know it was

01:54:57

one it was it was really really tough on

01:54:59

him. So yeah probably that's the last

01:55:02

time I've cried. Yeah.

01:55:02

>> Have you got got more emotional as you

01:55:04

got older?

01:55:04

>> Yeah I've always been emotional. Yeah.

01:55:06

I've always been

01:55:08

>> um there's always been a tear in my sad

01:55:11

movies and stuff and things. I I've

01:55:14

>> I that's what's driven me, you know. I

01:55:16

kind of um

01:55:18

um I you know you see something and then

01:55:21

you I always I have a bit of a tear in

01:55:23

my I hate scary movies. Always been

01:55:25

terrified and [ __ ] myself at scary

01:55:28

movies but you know emotionally I I um

01:55:33

you know I've always been quite

01:55:34

emotional.

01:55:35

>> What what are you most afraid of apart

01:55:36

from horror movies?

01:55:38

Uh,

01:55:42

don't know. Not not not afraid too too

01:55:45

many things, you know. I kind of want to

01:55:48

what I'm afraid of. Like I said, I've

01:55:50

made lots of sacrifices in in in my

01:55:53

life. And I want to make sure that um

01:55:56

hopefully the next 15 or 20 years I get

01:55:59

to really enjoy and do the things that I

01:56:01

want to do and and travel and

01:56:05

spoil the grandkids and and spoil my two

01:56:07

kids as as much as possible because we

01:56:09

like I said we've made those sacrifices.

01:56:11

So, you know, it's the opportunity to

01:56:13

enjoy that part of our lives.

01:56:15

>> Yeah. The fruits of your labor sort of

01:56:17

thing.

01:56:17

>> Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

01:56:18

>> Just kick back and enjoy it a bit.

01:56:19

>> Yeah.

01:56:20

>> Um any regrets?

01:56:23

Um,

01:56:25

no, nothing that nothing that springs to

01:56:28

mind. You know, there's always games

01:56:31

where

01:56:32

you might have done something a little

01:56:34

bit differently or but like I said, I

01:56:36

don't dwell too much on on the past. I'm

01:56:38

I'm always someone who's sort of

01:56:42

um focused on on looking forward and and

01:56:44

and you can't change things, you know,

01:56:46

so it's kind of you learn from

01:56:49

experiences and things that you do

01:56:50

slightly different, but no no real

01:56:52

regrets.

01:56:53

>> And if um Gabby, Bren, Trudy, and and

01:56:56

the grandkids were all in the room now,

01:56:58

what three words would you like them to

01:57:00

use to describe you?

01:57:07

Um,

01:57:10

oh, generous. I think that's something

01:57:12

that uh

01:57:14

uh caring and um

01:57:20

generous, caring, and um

01:57:24

hopefully fun. Yeah. Yeah.

01:57:26

>> Oh, great words.

01:57:27

>> Yeah.

01:57:28

>> Gabby may disagree since you got the

01:57:31

draw and you didn't give her the card.

01:57:34

And last one, Warren Gatland, are you

01:57:35

proud of yourself?

01:57:37

>> Uh,

01:57:39

yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I've uh

01:57:44

yeah, kind of been I've been lucky. Um,

01:57:47

you know, I come up I was um

01:57:52

I probably have had a a bit of a

01:57:54

different focus. you know, sport's given

01:57:55

me so many great opportunities and um

01:57:58

and I was lucky enough in

01:58:00

terms of my upbringing in terms of the

01:58:04

support I had, but you know, definitely

01:58:05

came from a very modest family

01:58:08

background in terms of didn't have a lot

01:58:10

and um and I think, you know, a big part

01:58:15

of my motivation is is trying to produce

01:58:18

and have a couple of kids who I think um

01:58:22

are really good kids. if if they

01:58:25

any way I felt that they were spoiled or

01:58:28

rude or whatever, you know, I wouldn't

01:58:30

I'd be disappointed with them. I think

01:58:32

they're they're two good kids and and

01:58:34

hopefully um being able to provide for

01:58:37

them and give them those opportunities

01:58:38

in life that I didn't really have, but

01:58:42

but for also them to appreciate and

01:58:45

respect that those opportunities that

01:58:47

they've had and and hopefully for them

01:58:49

to to continue to be able to do that

01:58:52

with their own kids as well.

01:58:54

>> Yeah. That that's the best team you've

01:58:56

coached, eh?

01:58:57

>> Absolutely. Yeah.

01:58:58

>> Yeah.

01:58:59

>> Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. M

01:59:01

>> um then the big match thing that we

01:59:03

talked about earlier says it all I

01:59:05

reckon.

01:59:06

>> Yeah.

01:59:06

>> About the family dynamic and what you

01:59:08

guys have got.

01:59:09

>> Yeah. And it was only it was only recent

01:59:10

when Brenn and I were talking about it

01:59:12

and um you read read the story. Um how

01:59:15

much I love you back here or something.

01:59:17

I can't remember. Yeah. Um

01:59:20

BR was Brenn thought that those those

01:59:22

words were actually in the book.

01:59:25

>> I didn't realize you went wrong.

01:59:27

>> Yeah.

01:59:27

>> It wasn't that.

01:59:28

>> Yeah. He said, "I thought that was in

01:59:30

the book. Didn't realize you made that

01:59:32

up." I was

01:59:34

>> flicking through the pages. Where is it?

01:59:36

>> Yeah. Oh, this has been fun. How How is

01:59:38

this for you? Like, do you are you

01:59:41

uncomfortable reflecting on your life

01:59:43

and achievements or do you do you enjoy

01:59:44

it? You find it quite

01:59:46

>> Yeah. I I I Yeah, I think it's a

01:59:48

reminder of um

01:59:51

it's a reminder and a reflection of uh

01:59:54

you know what you've done and and and

01:59:57

um you know potentially achieve, but

02:00:01

it's also a reminder of what you've

02:00:02

learned and what you what you

02:00:04

continually need to learn. you know, we

02:00:06

need to keep always evaluating ourselves

02:00:08

and things that we can do better and

02:00:10

what we, like I said, I've always tried

02:00:12

to think about, you know, how I do that

02:00:14

differently and what I've learned and

02:00:15

and making sure that, you know, you

02:00:17

continue to learn that that that to me

02:00:20

is that to me is the important thing.

02:00:22

It's um and

02:00:24

um but you know, I've enjoyed it. Yeah.

02:00:27

>> Yeah. Wonderful. Hey, well, thank you so

02:00:29

much for agreeing to come here today.

02:00:30

I've really enjoyed it and I can't thank

02:00:32

you enough.

02:00:32

>> Thanks. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you.

Badges

This episode stands out for the following:

80
Most heartwarming
75
Most heartbreaking
70
Most emotional
70
Best performance

Episode Highlights

Family Bonds and Unique Traditions
Gatland shares heartwarming family sayings and traditions that keep them close despite his busy career.
“I love you big much and there’s nothing bigger than that.”
@ 08m 06s
September 28, 2025
Father's Day Reflections
Gatland discusses the irony of missing Father's Day celebrations while balancing his career and family life.
“I never seem to have Father's Day because it was a different time of the year.”
@ 19m 11s
September 28, 2025
Emotional Coaching Philosophy
Gatland emphasizes the importance of family support for athletes, shaping his coaching approach.
“If things are right at home, you get a much better product on the field.”
@ 21m 32s
September 28, 2025
The Greatest WA Rugby Team
The 1992 team is considered one of the greatest in WA rugby history.
“I think it would have to be up there. 1992, 1993.”
@ 38m 15s
September 28, 2025
Passionate Supporters
The loyalty and passion of rugby fans in Hamilton is unmatched.
“They were always very passionate supporters and incredibly loyal.”
@ 41m 23s
September 28, 2025
Proudest Moment as an All Black
Reflecting on the honor of being selected to wear the All Blacks jersey.
“Probably just that opportunity to put that jersey on.”
@ 55m 24s
September 28, 2025
A Personal Approach
Never having a rugby agent, he handles all negotiations himself, believing in his worth.
“I’ve never had a rugby agent.”
@ 01h 07m 25s
September 28, 2025
Lessons Learned
Reflecting on a tough conversation with Brian O'Driscoll, he emphasizes the importance of learning from experiences.
“I learned a lot from that situation.”
@ 01h 14m 16s
September 28, 2025
Media Relations
Discussing the challenges of dealing with media scrutiny and criticism.
“It's the hardest thing in the game to be involved with at the moment.”
@ 01h 21m 04s
September 28, 2025
Looking Forward
You can't dwell too much on the past; focus on creating your own luck.
“You can't change the past.”
@ 01h 39m 21s
September 28, 2025
A Perfect Day
Warren describes his ideal day filled with family, exercise, and cooking.
“Perfect day is wake up. The perfect day has to be good weather at the beach.”
@ 01h 47m 41s
September 28, 2025
Warren Gatland's Reflections
Gatland shares his journey from modest beginnings to coaching success, emphasizing family values.
“Sport's given me so many great opportunities.”
@ 01h 57m 55s
September 28, 2025

Episode Quotes

You can understand young girls in terms of what their priorities are.
Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks
You even get yourself in trouble, you ring me and I’ll be there.
Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks
Being behind Fitzy was the biggest education of my career.
Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks
I’m a great believer in what will be will be.
Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks
Winning was more important than anything else.
Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks
I hope they see me as someone who can have a bit of fun.
Warren Gatland FIRES BACK at Media, Wales Exit & Why He’ll Never Coach All Blacks

Key Moments

Family Traditions08:06
Family Sacrifices19:41
Grief and Healing29:04
Emotional Connections32:51
Learning Experience1:14:36
Winning Importance1:30:53
World Cup Aspirations1:37:49
Family Values1:58:32

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

The David Goggins of NZ: Jamie Milne's Insane World Records!

December 28, 2025

01:39:59

The David Goggins of NZ: Jamie Milne's Insane World Records!

Underarm Bowling to the Rugby World Cup: Martin Snedden’s Incredible Life

December 07, 2025

02:17:46

Underarm Bowling to the Rugby World Cup: Martin Snedden’s Incredible Life

Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

June 29, 2025

02:05:15

Grant Fox on All Blacks Legacy, Fatherhood & Ryan Fox’s Golfing Rise

The Kiwi Who Built a Fashion Empire from a Farm Shed

November 26, 2025

01:50:20

The Kiwi Who Built a Fashion Empire from a Farm Shed

Robbie Magasiva Opens Up on Loss of Pua Magasiva

March 15, 2026

01:37:33

Robbie Magasiva Opens Up on Loss of Pua Magasiva

How Bernice Mene Became Kiwi Sporting Royalty

October 19, 2025

01:40:23

How Bernice Mene Became Kiwi Sporting Royalty

Life After Gold: Nico Porteous on Identity, Anxiety, and What’s Next

August 10, 2025

02:14:11

Life After Gold: Nico Porteous on Identity, Anxiety, and What’s Next

Nigel Latta: What Really Matters When You’re Told You’re Dying

October 05, 2025

01:37:23

Nigel Latta: What Really Matters When You’re Told You’re Dying

The Truth About Once Were Warriors

January 25, 2026

01:58:41

The Truth About Once Were Warriors

Simon Gault on Losing 32kg, MasterChef, and NZ School Lunch "Rubbish"

January 18, 2026

01:54:07

Simon Gault on Losing 32kg, MasterChef, and NZ School Lunch "Rubbish"

David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love

August 17, 2025

01:30:07

David Seymour on THAT Haka Backlash, Chloe, Winston, Luxon & Finding Love

Michael Campbell Speaks out on Vaccine Injury & Heart Surgery

March 01, 2026

01:57:45

Michael Campbell Speaks out on Vaccine Injury & Heart Surgery