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Welcome to the Domavvey podcast. Great
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conversations with fascinating people.
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On this episode, forensic scientist Tom
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Coyle, who worked on over 20,000 crime
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scenes in his 30-year poling career.
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When you're actually at the crime scene,
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uh you you put that professional mode
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on. Uh so you you can't show any
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emotion. Uh that's the worst. If you
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show emotion at that crime scene, uh and
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you start crying, you might as well
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never do it again. It it really is that
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that straight to the fact you start
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crying at that crime scene, your job's
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over.
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>> Viewer discretion is strongly advised.
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We talk about his work during the Crush
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earthquakes, why he hates CSI, and how
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he has learned to live with images that
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never truly leave you. This episode is
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not an easy watch, but it's an important
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one. Thomas Coyle, welcome to my
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podcast. Thank you so much for the
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invite. It's a absolute privilege to be
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here which is really quite strange
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because uh I told some of my friends
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that I'm going to go on a podcast and uh
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they their eyes went up and their
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eyebrows went across and you know they
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said to me, "Oh, it's going to be
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someone in a little tiny dingy room and
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uh they're they're going to be just with
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a little tiny microphone and you're
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going to be talking rubbish for about 15
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20 minutes." I went, "Well, no, it's
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with Dom Harvey." And their eyes just
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lit up and it's just amazing how many
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people actually recognize who you are.
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So, thank you so much. She's a privilege
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to be here.
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>> I'm I'm pleased you're here. And um just
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to clarify, we're going to be talking
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rubbish for 2 hours or so.
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>> Okay. Thank you.
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>> No, it's going to be great. I've um
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you've got a brand new book out uh
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called The Dead Speak.
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>> I have. Yes.
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>> My life and forensics, which I've read
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over the last couple of days. Um
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the first thing I want to know is did
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did you have a ghost writer or did you
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write it all yourself?
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>> It was all myself. All from everything
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that was up there. uh all those scenes I
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went to uh all that visual imagination
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was all up in my brain. I did everything
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myself. I did actually ask the
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publishers cuz I sent him uh a little
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abstract of what I wanted in the uh uh
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what I wanted to get out of it. And I
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said right at the end, I'm hoping you're
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going to give a ghostriter uh to do this
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cuz I've never wrote a book before. In
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fact, I'm very rarely read a book. I'm
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more of a journal person or a magazine
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person. So, it's uh it was very daunting
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for me to even think about writing a
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book. And they said, "No, just give us a
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chapter on something you've done uh as
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something passed in your life." And I
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went, "Okay, I'll give it a go." And I
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started to type and I just couldn't
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stop. And it just kept coming out and
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out and out. And I gave them that
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chapter and they seem to have liked it.
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And that's where we are today.
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>> I I pity the editor.
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>> I reckon the editor probably needed some
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counseling afterwards. It's a It's a
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full-on book. It did go from editor to
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uh to publisher to editor me to say uh
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uh that yeah they were quite not
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overwhelmed but they it was a completely
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different type of book that than they've
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been used to in the past and we did have
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I wouldn't say fun times uh going from
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us to the editor but when it came back
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from the editor first of all it was uh
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really strange uh I felt like I was back
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at school again you know when you get
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your first uh manuscript back and all
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you see is red lines red lines and
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crosses red lines and crosses And I I
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was going, "Oh, no. That's it." You
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know, they're not going to accept the
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book. It's all rubbish. Uh but it was
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apparently it's just part of the
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process.
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>> Now, you've um you've done really well.
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It's it's a great book. I I got through
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it in a couple of days, and I'm a
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notoriously slow reader. Um it's all
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about your life and career. 16 years at
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Met Police in London, 14 years with the
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New Zealand Police, uh 20,000 crime
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scenes, over 200,000 exhibits and
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laboratories. Did Did you find this
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process Yeah, how how did you find it?
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Was it was it cathartic? Did you did you
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open up um you cases inside your mind
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that you thought had been locked away?
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>> Yeah, it was therapeutic. Yeah,
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>> it was actually therapeutic to write
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because when we go to these crime
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scenes, we can't compartmentalize them.
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So, we put them in different places just
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to just to switch it off and uh to
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forget about them. Uh but you know when
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you someone talks to you and they say oh
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you know there's this certain crime
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scene that they've been to and they you
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know and it just comes back again
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>> and it just comes flooding back. So all
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you have to do is just uh start to think
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about that crime scene and it all just
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comes out. It was right really quite
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strange but it was very uh therapeutic
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as well doing that.
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>> I I' I've written some books as well. Um
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but my my the and I know exactly what
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you're talking about. It's like pulling
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a thread and it just keeps coming. It's
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amazing. But the stories that I were
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talking was talking about were like
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silly stories about my childhood. Like
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um the stories that you were talking
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about are quite unpleasant things that
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probably should remain buried for a
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reason.
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>> Uh yeah. Well, I I won't say buried for
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a reason. I think I was trying to be
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honest, but I was trying to give more of
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an insight onto the forensic aspect
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within a crime scene. I didn't want it
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all blood gore and, you know, because
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there's somebody's life we're talking
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about.
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>> Oh, no. I was I was meaning like for
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self-preservation.
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>> Okay. Yeah. I I I see your point. Yeah.
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Uh I I I I'm one of these people that uh
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openly talk about uh my experiences uh
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when I was at you know with work
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colleagues and with other uh police
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officers and I trained as well in the
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past uh quite frequently. Uh so I was
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training officer so all of those kept
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coming out all the time. I wasn't one of
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the kept in like a pressure cooker.
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That's not to say I've not had my
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problems.
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>> Yeah. You know, I I have had my
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problems,
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>> mate. The things that you've seen and
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and done and witnessed. I Yeah. I don't
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know how you can come out the other side
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unscathed. I think it'd be impossible.
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>> But I think that's not not just from the
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crime scenes. I think from my early
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youth as well, you know, some of the
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things I've seen and was in with my
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older youth. I think that, you know,
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I've had that all the way through my
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life. So, it wasn't just for 18 years
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old, I go straight to see murders, uh,
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or something like that. So, I've not
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been introduced into it. It's just that
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I've I've witnessed things uh throughout
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my whole life.
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>> Yeah. We're going to loop back and get
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into that um the childhood and the early
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years. But first of all, um anyone that
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buys this book, uh the dead speak, what
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do you hope they feel when they reach
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the final page?
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a respect for those that go into these
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crime scenes uh and how the police are
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humans, those that work within the
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police, those that scientists, uh that
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we're all human and uh we we're there
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for a reason and that's to to get the
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information from a person or a deceased
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person or a crime scene itself. It
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doesn't have to be the deceased person.
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It could be a crime scene just to get
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information uh from that crime scene.
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Yeah, we we were discussing this in the
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office yesterday uh because I was I was
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reading out um some passages of the
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book. Um some of the staff uh really
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enjoyed it and wanted more. Others
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refused to listen and I said, "Look,
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this is a this is a this is a reality of
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life and it's a really important job and
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it's a necessary job and we're just
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lucky that we're not doing it."
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>> I know that's a it takes a certain
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individual to do that. You you've got
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lots of people that love all the blood
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and gore on the TV and you know you've
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got these games that assert 18 that 14
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year olds are shooting people's heads
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off and all that. So it's norm it seems
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like normality for a lot of individuals
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but get them into a crime scene or
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describe a crime scene in reality.
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>> It's completely different aspect of it.
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You know, it's completely different to
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that two-dimensional uh plastic you see
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on uh you know, on the TV to what you do
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with a three-dimensional where there's a
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deceased person in front of you with
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blood spatter all at the wall.
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>> Yeah, there's actually a joke about the
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the shows that you were talking about
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earlier in the book. Um you call them
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CSI made up and CSI stupid.
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>> Um have have the popularity of those
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sort of shows made your life hell?
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>> Yes. Well, it's when I first joined when
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I first joined uh uh this job, it wasn't
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glamorized. It was like a dirty man's
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position. Uh so it was like the position
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nobody really wanted to do because it
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was that that job that was after the
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event. You're not actually going out
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investigating it with uh you know
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arresting people and you're at the that
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end of the the crime scene looking at
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all the evidence that nobody else wants
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to do. CSI came along. It's glamorized
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it all and people want to now uh feel
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like that, you know, that that they can
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do that. Uh, and they they imagine
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somebody going into that crime scene,
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you know, with with what you see on CSI
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and the the the beautiful person with
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their hair flicked over and they walk
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over to the crime scene and they they
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flick their hair as they they they go
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down to the uh the deceased person. No
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PPA. Look, if they're wearing gloves and
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they pick up a hair, I've just found a
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hair sample. Well, I'm not surprised,
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you've just shedded 20 airs all over the
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place. That's not the reality. For
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goodness sake,
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>> you're just getting terminated with the
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whole crowd.
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>> I can't watch them. I really cannot
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watch them. I actually broke a TV once.
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I threw something at it. It was just
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just really really I got so overwhelmed
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with the the uh the way they portrayed a
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scene examiner on uh on the set that it
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just it just got to me and I can't watch
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them anymore.
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>> Well, it's light entertainment, isn't
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it? I had I had one of New Zealand's
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greatest golfers of all time, Michael
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Campbell. I've had him on the podcast
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and he refuses to watch Happy Gilmore.
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>> Oh, really?
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>> Like he refuses to watch anything to do
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with golf cuz he's like it's just so
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far-fetched.
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>> I can see I can see his point. But that
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Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point
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actually.
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>> Yeah. Okay. Um based on everything you
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know,
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what is the worst way to die?
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>> Alone.
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It's simple as that. I would say be
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being alone
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>> is the worst way to die. the victims of
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uh uh which I've had many of is suicide.
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Uh I think they're the worst ways to
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die. Uh you do get you get the violent
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ones and all of that. That's all of
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that, but I truly believe they're the
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worst ones.
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That was an unexpected answer. Oh,
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sorry.
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No, no, no. I need to apologize. I I
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don't don't know what I was expecting.
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It was it's a fantastic answer and it's
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an honest answer. I appreciate it. when
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when when people ask you in social
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situations about your life and career,
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um what do they generally ask?
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>> Like if you're at a barbecue or
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somewhere,
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>> what's the worst crime scene you've ever
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been to? That's that's the number one
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question. Or how do you put up with it?
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They're the two question. Even when I go
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to schools and you got like 14, 15 year
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olds that we teach forensic science to,
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they always come up to you afterwards
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and we give them a question and answer
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time and the first question I can
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guarantee, what is the worst crime scene
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you've ever been to? and they want me to
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describe it, which I can't, you know,
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they're not uh audio. I wouldn't
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describe it to, you know, to to most
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individuals anyway. Uh even in the book,
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I describe the crime scenes, but I do it
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in a uh so you can imagine a forensic
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science collecting those items. But
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>> uh yeah, they're they're the they're the
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two main questions I get at a barbecue
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or some someone asking me that, what is
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the worst crime scene you done or how do
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you cope with it?
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>> Would you answer it here or no? what the
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>> the worst crimes scene.
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>> Uh
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the I I could, but it's it's I wouldn't
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want to go into detail with it. And that
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that was a child death. Uh that was the
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worst one I ever went to. And the the
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the things that happened to that child
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and then going to the postmortem and
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seeing that child being cut into when
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they should be playing in the
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playground.
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>> What age?
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>> Uh they were I think they were around
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about 5 years old.
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And that gets you. It still gets me now.
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You know, it's it's just you go you go
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to the crime scene, you go, they say,
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you know, this is what's happened to
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this child. This is and you do you feel
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you you've got a family yourself. We're
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all you all the police have got
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families, but you expect to go in there
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with this strong presence and then
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somebody describes exactly what another
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person's done to a child and then they
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say to you the next day, "Oh, we need
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you. We because we've found evidence
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within there. Now we've got to go to the
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postmortm and then you're there with the
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pathologist and the pathologist is doing
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their job uh in an excellent way and we
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cut it in or they're cutting into a
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5-year-old and we gain evidence off
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that. So they're the worst
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>> when that's the worst.
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>> When do you um Yeah. When when do you
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stop being professional and become a
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human? Like do do you do you do you like
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cry at the scene or is it when you get
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home after the end of your shift? Is it
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driving home? No, it's you you when
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you're actually at the crime scene, uh
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you you put that professional mode on.
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Uh so you you can't show any emotion. Uh
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that's the worst. If you show emotion at
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that crime scene, uh and you start
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crying, you might as well never do it
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again. It it really is that that
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straight to the fact you start crying at
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that crime scene, your job's over.
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>> But you're only human.
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>> I know you're only human, but you take
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that you you switch like the switch that
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goes on inside your mind as soon as you
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put that PPE gear on. You're still
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shaking because you know you're going to
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expect something horrible. But as soon
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as you put that PPE gear on and that
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mask goes on and you've got your
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notebook, it's like and there's a switch
00:13:01
that turns over. Now you're in your
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professional mode and you are there for
00:13:04
the victim of that crime. Uh but when
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you leave your heart does go, "Wow, did
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somebody just really do that?" And you
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can I I've sat there and I've sat in my
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car before driving over and I've gone,
00:13:18
"I need 10 minutes to myself. I can't
00:13:20
drive straight away because I'm I'm
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angered with the situation. I'm angry
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that one fellow human can do this to
00:13:27
another human. And I just sit there just
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for 10 minutes just to to recoup myself.
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>> But then I get home and I've got a
00:13:33
family support like no other. You know,
00:13:35
um I've got a wife that's very
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intriguing uh or she she's very
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intrigued with crime scenes. So uh she
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>> she married the right guy.
00:13:44
>> She did. So, she sit she she allows me
00:13:47
to tell her everything that I've been
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through throughout that day or week or
00:13:51
how long I've been at the the scene
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itself. And uh she will just sit there
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and let me get it all out. And I have
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sat there a couple of times with tears,
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you know, I've cried
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>> with her just for what I've seen. We're
00:14:04
all Cuban at the end of the day. You
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know, we we have emotions, but we don't
00:14:07
show them at that crime scene. And I
00:14:09
haven't put that in the book because I I
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and I think part of that was uh taken
00:14:15
out for that reason because I think
00:14:17
that's a complete and utter book all on
00:14:19
its own.
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>> Uh you know the the the the for the
00:14:22
things we see and the the the trauma
00:14:24
that stays with us for the rest of our
00:14:26
lives and like I say I have been I have
00:14:28
been depressed in the past with it.
00:14:32
That's perfectly understandable. How can
00:14:34
how can you not take your work home with
00:14:36
you like from a mental perspective? like
00:14:38
how are you able to just um like you
00:14:40
block that off and not think about it?
00:14:42
>> I Yeah, I you could never ever take your
00:14:45
work home with you. It's like I say,
00:14:46
it's that professional uh block that you
00:14:49
have in your mind.
00:14:52
You can't
00:14:54
you can't go home and take all of that
00:14:57
weight with you. uh or you do take that
00:14:58
weight with you, but you can't actually
00:15:01
uh
00:15:02
take the the emotion from that crime
00:15:04
scene uh and bring it to to the house as
00:15:08
well, unless you like I've just uh said
00:15:10
about talking to to your to to Ali
00:15:13
myself. Yeah.
00:15:13
>> Yeah. But is that something you learned
00:15:15
over time? Like I'm just thinking if if
00:15:17
as a civilian like if I if I happen to
00:15:19
see like a dead a dead child, I don't
00:15:21
think it's something I could ever
00:15:22
forget.
00:15:22
>> Yeah, it is. It it's over time you build
00:15:24
resilience. Uh so it's all about
00:15:26
building resilience over time. So the
00:15:27
first few times I went uh it does hit
00:15:30
you quite emotionally but you start
00:15:32
getting uh that that emotional
00:15:34
detachment from it uh but it doesn't it
00:15:39
to say it doesn't still affect you is is
00:15:41
untrue and I I don't think any scene
00:15:43
examiner or scientist out there that has
00:15:45
ever been to scenes themselves can ever
00:15:48
say that they're detached fully
00:15:49
>> and they can go straight out and have a
00:15:51
jolly good drink afterwards.
00:15:54
Now, we're recording this at the end of
00:15:56
January 2026. Um, and there's been uh a
00:16:00
terrible tragedy recently in Mount
00:16:01
Monganoi with um the landslide. And
00:16:03
you've probably got some former
00:16:04
colleagues, I don't know, that are
00:16:06
potentially working there this week.
00:16:08
What are they likely to be experiencing?
00:16:11
>> Uh first and foremost, nervousness.
00:16:14
Obviously, this is somebody's loved ones
00:16:16
they're dealing with. uh they have to be
00:16:18
patient as well because they're they're
00:16:20
waiting uh unfortunately for the
00:16:22
deceased to be recovered. So it's that
00:16:25
anxiety the anxiety of uh waiting uh for
00:16:29
uh the the the victim uh to be brought
00:16:32
to the uh morttery uh which I believe is
00:16:36
Hamilton uh where they're going to be
00:16:38
taken uh and then go through that
00:16:40
process. So there's a that set process
00:16:41
that they will go through uh but they
00:16:44
will be treated with such humanity. So
00:16:46
it's it's they're treated like a family
00:16:48
member uh when they the the the deceased
00:16:50
comes through. But it takes time and
00:16:52
people have to realize it takes time and
00:16:55
and it takes a great deal of effort to
00:16:57
get that information from them. Uh so
00:16:59
nothing's a you know nothing's a quick
00:17:02
easy uh way of trying to retrieve that
00:17:05
information. But they they will be
00:17:07
showing anxiety at the moment waiting.
00:17:09
It's a waiting game for them. And we all
00:17:11
hate waiting. No matter what crime um
00:17:13
sorry, no matter what disaster I've been
00:17:15
to, it's always been a waiting game to
00:17:17
wait for uh something to come so that
00:17:20
you can get into that mode of working.
00:17:23
>> You you said something before. You said
00:17:25
it'll take a bit of time to get the
00:17:26
information from them. The from them
00:17:28
you're you're talking about the victims.
00:17:30
>> The victims themselves.
00:17:31
>> What what do you mean exactly? Well, we
00:17:33
have to when we're looking at the
00:17:34
victims from disaster sites, uh we have
00:17:37
to go through a process of uh taking uh
00:17:41
uh taking
00:17:43
uh what's the word? Uh
00:17:48
taking evidence from that victim. So,
00:17:50
we're looking at odontology, which the
00:17:53
the last uh uh person that was
00:17:55
repatriated to their family or the first
00:17:57
person that repatriated their family, it
00:17:59
was odontology that was the primary
00:18:01
identifier. What's that?
00:18:02
>> Oh, do teeth. So, it was the formation
00:18:05
uh the uh the the way that the teeth are
00:18:07
set in there. So, what they do is uh
00:18:10
they'll take an X-ray of the teeth of
00:18:12
the deceased person and they'll have an
00:18:13
X-ray from uh from where they've been to
00:18:15
the dentist because when we all go to
00:18:17
the dentist, we have our X-rays taken.
00:18:19
And so, they'll look at the
00:18:20
individuality of the formation of the
00:18:22
teeth to make sure that it matches from
00:18:24
the X-ray from the uh from the dentist
00:18:26
to uh the deceased person. So, that's uh
00:18:29
one way. It was the the person that was
00:18:32
uh sorry I forgot the person's name but
00:18:34
the person that was actually repatriated
00:18:35
to the family the first one of those six
00:18:37
uh victims that was I do believe through
00:18:40
odontology and then the secondary was
00:18:42
primary uh secondary identification so
00:18:44
the clothing the height the the the
00:18:46
features of the person but then there's
00:18:48
other formats as well so we're looking
00:18:50
at uh uh DNA uh from the person we're
00:18:54
looking at fingerprints so that we can
00:18:55
look at the antibotum from personal
00:18:57
items that they may have touched uh
00:18:59
We're looking at uh uh the even
00:19:02
something if they've been to a hospital
00:19:03
and they've got like a pacemaker or an
00:19:06
implant that's been placed there because
00:19:07
they've got unique serial numbers. So
00:19:09
there'll be a postmortem to look at that
00:19:11
effect as well and how they actually uh
00:19:13
how they died as well.
00:19:15
>> Yeah. I ask you that because you've been
00:19:17
involved in a a couple of um big events
00:19:19
that we'll get into in the 2005
00:19:23
Indonesia tsunami
00:19:24
>> 2004.
00:19:24
>> Oh 2004 big boxing day 2004. Yeah. Over
00:19:27
into 2005. Yes.
00:19:29
>> And um the Christ Church earthquakes of
00:19:32
uh 2011.
00:19:33
>> 2011. Yes.
00:19:34
>> Um
00:19:36
so when you were dealing with a victim
00:19:38
of a like ah I was going to say a
00:19:40
tragedy, you know, natural disaster, but
00:19:42
I suppose any crime as well. So do you
00:19:45
do you know their their name or do you
00:19:46
know anything about them or
00:19:48
>> we don't know anything about them?
00:19:49
That's the the whole point of disaster
00:19:51
victim identification. We have no prior
00:19:53
knowledge of who those people are. So
00:19:55
they're given unique reference numbers
00:19:56
and you that reference number stays with
00:19:58
them all the way through. So the
00:20:00
antimortm has the person's name because
00:20:02
that's the individual we're trying to
00:20:04
recover the evidence from from their
00:20:05
home or workplace. But the postmortem,
00:20:08
so the pink forms uh is has all the
00:20:11
information from the deceased person,
00:20:12
but we don't know who that deceased
00:20:14
person is. So we're trying to get in
00:20:17
enough or as much information from that
00:20:19
person themselves. So first of all,
00:20:21
we'll look at their clothing. So, we'll
00:20:23
take their clothing off. Sometimes
00:20:25
they'll have a name placed at the back
00:20:27
of their tag. Uh the the jewelry, some
00:20:30
jewelry could be unique. So, a wedding
00:20:32
ring could have the name of the
00:20:33
individual who they've married inside
00:20:35
with love. But we can't rely on that as
00:20:37
formal identification because people
00:20:39
swap clothes. You know, people hold
00:20:41
somebody's wallet. You know, my wife's
00:20:42
always holding my wallet. Uh so, you
00:20:45
can't have that as primary
00:20:46
identification. There's got to be
00:20:47
secondary identification, but it's a
00:20:49
great indicator of the who that person
00:20:50
is
00:20:51
>> uh before they go into the uh the uh the
00:20:54
the the next stage of those process of
00:20:58
uh postmortm uh processes to get the
00:21:01
other information which I said the
00:21:02
odontology DNA path postmortm and uh uh
00:21:06
fingerprints.
00:21:11
>> We just need to move your mic a little
00:21:12
bit closer to you. Jeez, we're 20
00:21:14
minutes in. This is going to be this is
00:21:15
going to be a great chat. I'm so It's
00:21:17
already really good.
00:21:18
>> Oh, okay. Cool. Okay.
00:21:19
>> How are you? How are you feeling? How do
00:21:20
you feel?
00:21:20
>> I'm I'm feeling a lot uh more relaxed
00:21:23
now. Yeah.
00:21:24
>> Okay. Cuz I I I you know, we I've had a
00:21:27
couple of interviews and they seem to to
00:21:30
go off onto a tangent and trying to lead
00:21:32
me down to a god a garden path that I
00:21:34
don't really want to go down to. But you
00:21:36
you I must admit you're a lot more
00:21:37
relaxed than Thank you for
00:21:38
>> Oh, thank you. Oh, there's there's no
00:21:40
agenda here at all. Um, so these these
00:21:42
are just questions from a place of
00:21:43
natural curiosity and uh yeah, I just
00:21:45
want your your answers as a uh
00:21:48
>> an experienced forensics guy.
00:21:51
>> So let's Okay, let's go to your
00:21:54
background first of all. So what what's
00:21:55
your earliest memory?
00:21:56
>> Earliest memory at a crime scene or
00:21:58
earliest memory of being in trouble.
00:22:02
>> So So you're from um a council estate in
00:22:04
the UK?
00:22:05
>> I'm from a really rough counselor state
00:22:06
in the UK. you know, lots it's one of
00:22:09
those council states where very few
00:22:10
people ever get out. They get uh they
00:22:13
get into that situation where they feel
00:22:15
that the their their life's not worth
00:22:17
that great deal. Uh undereducated and
00:22:22
they they feel this is where their life
00:22:23
is. And a lot of people are there's many
00:22:25
many people I know that have never left,
00:22:27
never even gone out of Leicester. My
00:22:30
mom's only ever been to Skesh, never
00:22:32
been abroad. Uh so I I get into that rut
00:22:36
of well this is where I'm going to be.
00:22:39
>> Uh but yeah my earliest educ my earliest
00:22:44
one is school you know being bullied at
00:22:46
school. Uh and to to overcome being
00:22:49
bullied at school I became a comic a
00:22:53
comedian. I made people laugh especially
00:22:56
the bullies that were bullying me. So
00:22:57
the big hard chaps that went around
00:23:00
bullying people, I used to make them
00:23:02
laugh and uh they seem to enjoy it and
00:23:04
they protected me and that's how I got
00:23:06
through my childhood part of life is
00:23:10
just by making people laugh.
00:23:12
>> I think that's very relatable. I think
00:23:13
there's a lot of people that are
00:23:14
probably listening to this or watching
00:23:15
this that have done that themselves. You
00:23:17
used, you know, humor as a defense
00:23:19
mechanism.
00:23:19
>> It is. It's a massive defense mechanism
00:23:21
and it's and it helped me. It helped me
00:23:23
out so much. Uh I could have I could
00:23:25
have gone two ways. is I could have just
00:23:26
hid in a corner and been an isolated
00:23:28
victim or I could have just gone out
00:23:30
there and uh you know uh cuz I heard I
00:23:33
you know it was just it was just one of
00:23:35
those things I didn't hear about sorry
00:23:38
where am I going with that go back a
00:23:40
step it was just that I I tripped over
00:23:43
it once in front of somebody as I was
00:23:46
going away and I banged banged myself on
00:23:48
the side and they started laughing and I
00:23:51
thought oh okay that's that's stopped me
00:23:52
being beaten up and I carried on with
00:23:55
that and It just progressed from there
00:23:56
and that's that's the way I lived.
00:23:58
>> And um 1979, how old were you how old
00:24:02
were you in 1979?
00:24:03
>> I think I was 11 years old. That must
00:24:05
have been. Yeah.
00:24:05
>> Yeah. Okay. Christmas Eve 1979. You talk
00:24:08
about this in the book. Um why is that a
00:24:10
pivotal pivotal moment in your life?
00:24:12
>> I think are we talking about uh the
00:24:14
beating of my mother?
00:24:15
>> Yeah. Domestic violence.
00:24:16
>> Domestic violence which was quite common
00:24:18
in my uh household. Uh
00:24:22
>> your stepdad, right?
00:24:22
>> My stepdad. Yes. Uh, so my my uh my dad
00:24:25
left when I was uh really young. I never
00:24:28
knew who he was, but then I found out
00:24:29
later when I was uh 17, 18 that he was
00:24:33
he was a drunk as well and he went off
00:24:35
and uh I've never ever actually seen
00:24:37
him. And then my stepdad came in when I
00:24:39
was younger. Uh he liked the whiskey. He
00:24:42
was a Jordy lad. Uh and uh when he liked
00:24:45
a whiskey, you got on the wrong side of
00:24:47
him. Uh it was just the the back of his
00:24:50
hand. And uh he got more and more brutal
00:24:52
as he went along. Uh and he just didn't
00:24:55
do it just to to to my mom. He had done
00:24:57
it to us as well. Uh he my he resented
00:25:01
myself and my sister because we weren't
00:25:03
his kids. Uh he had two kids of himself
00:25:06
with my mom. So they're my you know my
00:25:08
other brother and sister. And he
00:25:10
resented who myself and my daughter uh
00:25:12
my daughter my my uh my sister and uh
00:25:16
yeah he was forever you know giving me a
00:25:18
a good smack. But that that and my mom
00:25:22
was always getting the brunt of it. She
00:25:23
she used to always step in and then he
00:25:26
just didn't like that and he used to
00:25:27
just clobber her. But that that evening
00:25:29
this it was Christmas Eve. We were all
00:25:32
excited to see our Christmas present. It
00:25:33
was a nice relaxed evening.
00:25:35
>> Uh my dad was in the stepdad was in the
00:25:37
kitchen. He was playing his guitar,
00:25:39
drinking his uh whiskey. We thought it
00:25:41
was going to be a great evening. My mom
00:25:43
said something wrong. He just snapped.
00:25:45
And my god, that's me. Did he punch the
00:25:48
living [ __ ] out of her in front of us?
00:25:50
We were trying to stop him and he was
00:25:52
smacking us out the way. And all we
00:25:54
could do uh cuz I was a real little
00:25:56
skinny [ __ ] I was nothing. And I
00:25:58
couldn't I couldn't I couldn't hold
00:25:59
back. He was a big chap. And uh you
00:26:02
know, he just smacked us out the way and
00:26:04
uh pushed the living [ __ ] out of her.
00:26:06
And I had to see that. I had to watch
00:26:08
him do that for a good 10 minutes
00:26:12
until he knew that she was unconscious
00:26:14
on the floor and then he he he left and
00:26:17
I never saw him after that.
00:26:20
>> Tom, that's so [ __ ] sad.
00:26:21
>> It is.
00:26:22
>> I feel How do you feel when you reflect
00:26:24
on that little boy?
00:26:25
>> It actually makes me tear up now just
00:26:27
thinking about it.
00:26:28
>> Yeah, I'm just thinking like you weren't
00:26:29
you weren't really safe at school. You
00:26:31
like you made it work to the best of
00:26:33
your ability. You weren't safe at home
00:26:35
either.
00:26:36
>> [ __ ] It was a it was a tough time.
00:26:38
Tough times. And you know, my mom was in
00:26:40
hospital for seven days. And she'd kept
00:26:43
the secret away from her family. She had
00:26:44
a big family. You know, we should we're
00:26:45
talking
00:26:46
>> How do you hide between Christmas and
00:26:47
New Year's?
00:26:48
>> I Well, she didn't. The family found out
00:26:50
that cuz they had to take us in.
00:26:52
>> Yeah.
00:26:52
>> And her brothers found out and they
00:26:54
never knew that she'd been a part of
00:26:55
domestic violence cuz she hid it so
00:26:57
well. She had the black eyes. Well, uh
00:26:58
we never could tell uh anybody uh
00:27:01
because, you know, my mom was keeping
00:27:03
this secret. And uh you know we loved
00:27:05
our mom uh very much. So we we just
00:27:07
wanted to protect protect her and so her
00:27:11
brothers found out and that's why he
00:27:13
never came back because the her brothers
00:27:15
would have killed him. I I truly believe
00:27:18
they would have killed him.
00:27:21
>> I mean if your mom stayed with him
00:27:23
eventually like she would have things
00:27:25
tend to escalate. Right. I I again
00:27:28
that's always at the back of my mind and
00:27:30
I think she the next punch uh would have
00:27:33
been the fatal one. I don't think there
00:27:35
would have been another one after this
00:27:36
the after sorry the next one after this
00:27:38
because he got that violent on this one
00:27:40
if my mom would have uh you know let him
00:27:42
come back into our lives again or the
00:27:44
brothers weren't after him cuz my mom
00:27:46
would I don't know why but I think she
00:27:47
would have had him back
00:27:48
>> and uh it would have done it again maybe
00:27:51
not in you know it' have been all fine
00:27:52
for 2 3 months everyone's happy we're
00:27:54
all lovely and everyone's hugging and
00:27:56
then suddenly something will snap again
00:27:58
and uh I think the next blow would have
00:27:59
killed her.
00:28:00
>> How's your mom now?
00:28:02
>> She's fine. She's uh she's
00:28:05
uh she's she got with somebody else
00:28:07
afterwards. His name was Sirill a few
00:28:10
years later. Wonderless man ever.
00:28:12
Complete the opposite. And you know he
00:28:14
was the he would just treated her like a
00:28:16
queen. And so for that and he he was
00:28:19
only uh with her for I think it was
00:28:21
about it was about 12 years but then he
00:28:23
ended up with serious Parkinson or
00:28:25
Parkinson's disease and we watched him
00:28:28
wither away to nothing. Uh and you know
00:28:31
that was my mom's life in front of her
00:28:34
that she this bloke could change changed
00:28:36
her concept of uh husbands cuz the first
00:28:41
cuz the first husband was a you know a
00:28:43
real [ __ ] second husband was a bigger
00:28:45
[ __ ] and then this this bloke comes
00:28:47
along midway through her life when she's
00:28:48
in her 40s early 40s 50s and treats her
00:28:52
like a queen and she's taken 4550 years
00:28:55
to get to that point of someone treating
00:28:58
her with respect and uh you know and
00:29:00
then somebody takes him away. So where's
00:29:03
the irony of that? You know where's life
00:29:04
when you know somebody's been with you
00:29:07
for you know 50 years of [ __ ] life and
00:29:10
then someone comes along and loves you
00:29:12
so much and then somebody takes them
00:29:14
away through really [ __ ] illness.
00:29:18
>> She must be so proud of you. Like her
00:29:20
boy did good.
00:29:21
>> Yeah, she's really really proud. It's uh
00:29:23
she's got like a what do we call them
00:29:26
where you've got a a place on the the
00:29:29
got like a shrine.
00:29:30
>> Right. That's the word. She's got like a
00:29:32
shrine. It's really weird. And I'm
00:29:34
expecting when I go when I say cuz every
00:29:36
time I talk to her on the phone, we do
00:29:37
we do quite a few Zoom meetings. Every
00:29:39
time she cuz she's uh uh she's starting
00:29:42
to get dementia slightly. So we she says
00:29:45
the same thing over and over again, but
00:29:47
every single time I can guarantee she'll
00:29:49
turn that camera around and there is in
00:29:51
front of her the the shrine of uh you
00:29:54
know the things I've done in the past.
00:29:55
I've sent her a little medal and uh you
00:29:58
know some of the little medals I've got
00:29:59
and uh she puts them on there and she
00:30:02
just sits there and enjoys looking at
00:30:04
them. Not just of me obviously there
00:30:06
obviously other family members up there.
00:30:08
>> No, but um you got a royal title in the
00:30:11
the king's birthday honors list. You got
00:30:13
a um order of merit thing.
00:30:15
>> I did. Yes.
00:30:15
>> Um so I'm thinking like being from like
00:30:18
a a council flat in the UK very close to
00:30:20
the royal family. Like that must have
00:30:22
been super meaningful to your mom. It
00:30:24
was brilliant. She I I think she must
00:30:27
have told everyone about it, even people
00:30:29
she didn't know. She was just going out
00:30:31
in the street and telling people, you
00:30:33
know, my son and she, you know, this
00:30:35
little old woman on a Zoom frame, she
00:30:36
going, you know, my son is got appointed
00:30:39
by the king of England
00:30:42
and she was just telling everyone for
00:30:43
weeks.
00:30:44
>> Oh, that's wonderful. Um yeah that um
00:30:48
being in that sort of environment um
00:30:49
surrounded by domestic violence. What
00:30:51
what impact did that have on you as a
00:30:52
boy and now a man
00:30:56
to me uh you know you know how you hear
00:31:00
stories sometimes if you got people that
00:31:02
go grow up in that child of they're
00:31:03
being abused or they're being uh uh you
00:31:06
know they've seen abuse themselves and
00:31:08
they say that that carries on and they
00:31:10
do that to you know that that's what why
00:31:11
they carry on and do that. Well, there's
00:31:13
Yeah, there's a massive ad campaign here
00:31:14
in New Zealand called Break the Cycle.
00:31:16
All about that.
00:31:17
>> Yeah. Well, I went completely opposite.
00:31:19
I've got utter and utter respect. That's
00:31:21
why I'm still with my wife after 40
00:31:23
years. You know, I have utter respect
00:31:26
for the the uh for other people. Uh I
00:31:29
went down completely the different road
00:31:32
uh on that which uh was a refreshing
00:31:35
change uh to see uh you know going down
00:31:39
a completely different you. I could have
00:31:40
easily have just put my hands up and
00:31:42
just said, "Yeah, well, this is what
00:31:43
I've been used to for the last 18 years.
00:31:45
This is what must life be." Uh, but
00:31:48
there was that incident that I'm presume
00:31:50
we'll talk about where, you know,
00:31:52
something changed my life and I needed
00:31:54
to to get out of this cycle uh to to
00:31:56
move on.
00:31:57
>> Well, let's talk about that. Yeah. Who
00:31:59
who was Paul Webster?
00:32:00
>> So, Paul Webster was my a really good
00:32:02
friend of mine. We'd been together for
00:32:05
not together, so it's a strange way to
00:32:06
say it.
00:32:08
>> Yeah. We'd been mates since uh We lived
00:32:10
on the same street. So, we'd been mates
00:32:12
since we were 2 years old. Um, that we I
00:32:14
I had a position at Don Millers, which
00:32:17
was a bakery in the center of Leicester.
00:32:20
And I was there uh one Friday night uh
00:32:24
which we was baking uh bread Friday or
00:32:26
Saturday. I think it was a Friday night.
00:32:28
We had to work evenings Friday and
00:32:29
Saturday evening. And there was a
00:32:31
commotion out at the clock tower, which
00:32:32
is a big iconic uh clock in the middle
00:32:36
of town center. police cars going off in
00:32:39
the lights and sirens and we wondered
00:32:40
what was going on. So went outside and
00:32:43
there was a big crowd drawn around this
00:32:46
person on the floor and the police
00:32:48
running all over the place and there was
00:32:49
another police officer who was an
00:32:51
inspector who was lying on the floor
00:32:52
further down the road uh who'd been
00:32:54
stabbed and walk over there and there's
00:32:57
this individual on the floor uh that'
00:33:01
been stabbed once in the heart in the
00:33:02
back and died there and then and then I
00:33:06
only realized the next day not even it
00:33:09
was that it was just then I realized
00:33:11
that it was my best friend
00:33:13
>> that just died
00:33:15
and I was I was mortified
00:33:18
that a life could be snapped away for
00:33:21
something so stupid. You know, he had no
00:33:25
knowing that this was going to happen.
00:33:26
He was with a crowd of friends and the
00:33:28
person with a knife just came up
00:33:30
straight behind them in this group and
00:33:31
he was just in the wrong place at the
00:33:33
wrong time. M
00:33:34
>> went down, died quite very quickly cuz
00:33:37
it went straight into the heart. And it
00:33:39
was just it was at that point I thought
00:33:41
I can't be doing this. I need I I I
00:33:44
don't want to be here. I want to do
00:33:47
something different.
00:33:48
>> And that
00:33:50
what did that teach you about grief? I
00:33:52
suppose that's your at how old were you?
00:33:54
16.
00:33:54
>> I was 18 at the time.
00:33:56
>> I suppose this is the first um the first
00:33:58
encounter with sort of death of someone
00:33:59
that you love that happened.
00:34:01
>> Yes. And it hit me like a ton of bricks.
00:34:03
I was uh very emotional for days, maybe
00:34:06
even weeks. I just didn't realize that
00:34:08
somebody could be snatched away so
00:34:10
young. Uh and witnessing it as well,
00:34:14
which is even the worst part about it.
00:34:16
>> And yet it affected me a lot. Uh and I
00:34:20
became
00:34:21
I wouldn't say disillusioned with life.
00:34:23
I just became disillusioned with people
00:34:25
>> and I just became insect with myself. I
00:34:28
didn't want to know anything. I really
00:34:30
didn't want to know. I think that was my
00:34:33
first ever encounter with depression.
00:34:38
>> I think it must have been.
00:34:40
>> Yeah. I suppose you wouldn't have had a
00:34:41
label for it then. No, you look back.
00:34:42
>> I just felt down. I just felt well what
00:34:45
what what am I supposed to do? And I
00:34:47
just felt like there was this storm
00:34:48
cloud over my head and shoulders uh that
00:34:51
I just couldn't get rid of. And every
00:34:53
day was a rainy day. Even though it was
00:34:55
it could have been nice outside, it it
00:34:57
just became such a uh ter came such an
00:35:01
upheaval trying to get out of bed,
00:35:03
trying to get to work.
00:35:05
>> Uh and even talking to people, I just
00:35:07
just felt like I just didn't want to be
00:35:09
with anyone. Just wanted to be on my own
00:35:11
alone and just think of the good times
00:35:13
that me and my friend had.
00:35:15
>> How often do you think about where you
00:35:16
be now?
00:35:16
>> All the time.
00:35:17
>> Do you? He's got a great uh I wouldn't
00:35:20
say it's a weird thing to say but
00:35:22
following but every single year uh all
00:35:24
his family and uh friends all say you
00:35:26
know happy birthday Paul uh on his
00:35:28
birthday and we all say you know you
00:35:30
know happy birthday to him uh via social
00:35:33
media uh so it's always constantly there
00:35:35
but even when I go to you know crime
00:35:37
scenes sometimes it's there you go whoa
00:35:40
okay this could have been Paul I'm here
00:35:43
now and I'm trying to solve this for the
00:35:46
families uh uh which is what I've always
00:35:49
wanted to do since that event.
00:35:52
>> Um that's so cool that you keep his
00:35:54
memory alive even now. Always.
00:35:57
>> I'm probably projecting here, but it'd
00:35:58
be like my worst fear if I was dying to
00:36:00
be forgotten.
00:36:00
>> Yeah, that's why I put him in the book
00:36:03
right at the beginning. uh you know that
00:36:04
I wanted to the book to be dedicated to
00:36:07
himself and Joe which was my uh
00:36:10
>> nephew that uh you know sadly passed
00:36:12
away as well which was a really
00:36:14
unfortunate circumstance at few years
00:36:17
ago.
00:36:18
>> Yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that. We we'll
00:36:19
get into that later as well.
00:36:20
>> Yeah.
00:36:21
>> So yeah after we uh died that's when you
00:36:23
decided to make um a massive career
00:36:25
pivot and um you became a cop. Can you
00:36:27
can you remember?
00:36:28
>> I didn't first. The navy. The navy. I
00:36:31
was I went into I I thought I wanted to
00:36:33
be I wanted to be a cop. I always want I
00:36:36
felt afterwards that Yeah. I wanted to
00:36:38
do uh the police work. But being a
00:36:40
skinny little runt, there was no way I
00:36:43
was going to do it. And plus they wanted
00:36:44
mature people then. They didn't want
00:36:45
anyone that was 18, 19. They wanted, you
00:36:47
know, people in their 20s, 30s that uh
00:36:50
had respectable academic career uh paths
00:36:52
behind them. Uh so I decided to go on
00:36:55
the Navy go into the Navy part the Navy
00:36:57
recruitment and I went down there just
00:36:59
to be a naval sea uh seaman and
00:37:03
completed all the tests and the exams
00:37:04
and they called me up and said oh we
00:37:06
you're actually really good uh we could
00:37:08
have you as a naval officer and that's
00:37:10
when I went for the medical and the
00:37:11
medical again said that you're
00:37:13
underweight
00:37:15
and I decided okay well I'll put on
00:37:17
weight and go go in 6 months and then it
00:37:20
changed again there was that uh position
00:37:22
that came up at New Scotland Yard.
00:37:24
>> Yeah. Can you remember your first day
00:37:26
there at Scotland Yard?
00:37:27
>> It was so daunting,
00:37:29
>> intimidating.
00:37:29
>> It was really intimidating. It was a It
00:37:31
was the late '8s. It was a very big
00:37:34
man's club uh building. You know, it was
00:37:37
a one of these where
00:37:39
>> the hierarchy was very very well
00:37:42
respected. Your peers were very well
00:37:43
well respected. You if they were walking
00:37:45
down the corridor, you stepped onto the
00:37:47
side. You let them walk past. You always
00:37:49
saluted people. Uh complete different
00:37:52
nowadays. Obviously, you wouldn't never
00:37:54
do that. You know, there's respect on
00:37:56
both sides. Uh but then there was only a
00:37:58
oneway uh respect and that was their
00:38:00
way.
00:38:02
>> That's um sort of around this part of
00:38:04
the book where you talk about someone
00:38:07
that lost their life after falling 18
00:38:09
floors.
00:38:09
>> Yeah.
00:38:10
>> Um you had to investigate whether it was
00:38:12
um like an accident or they were pushed.
00:38:15
Um
00:38:16
>> but there's some graphic detail in here
00:38:18
including missing limbs. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:19
>> Is that just as a result of the falling
00:38:21
from that height?
00:38:22
>> So they No, it wasn't just the falling
00:38:24
of the height. They they went through
00:38:26
the So there was a walkway going into
00:38:28
the building. So the back stairwell
00:38:30
>> and in that stairwell there was a a a
00:38:32
conservatory roof. So there was glass
00:38:35
roof and skylight and the skylight had
00:38:37
metal struts that kept the glass
00:38:39
together.
00:38:40
>> So the person came down the 18th 18
00:38:43
floors went through the glass and they
00:38:46
the metal struts were like a guillotine.
00:38:48
And so the guillotined the legs that
00:38:51
went one way, torso went the other and
00:38:54
if you want to know the head went
00:38:56
completely somewhere else which we had
00:38:57
to try and find.
00:38:58
>> Yeah, there was a a decapitation as well
00:39:00
which is the I I'm pretty sure this is
00:39:02
the first time I've ever read this in a
00:39:03
book. So you're how old at the time?
00:39:05
This is fairly early in your pleasing.
00:39:06
>> This was very early. So I would have
00:39:08
been uh I would have been about 24 then.
00:39:11
>> [ __ ] She must have been wishing you
00:39:13
were in the Navy at that point.
00:39:14
>> I wasn't. It was it was even worse when
00:39:17
uh the when I actually went to the body
00:39:19
and uh uh removed the coat and there was
00:39:23
no head.
00:39:24
>> That was the point where I went oh cuz I
00:39:26
wasn't expecting that. That made me jump
00:39:28
for 24 year old jumping at the time when
00:39:31
you you're pulling back somebody's coat
00:39:32
and you go there's no head. Where is it?
00:39:36
And that's that's where we had a look
00:39:37
outside and it was in the uh alleyway.
00:39:40
>> What distance? How far from the body was
00:39:42
the head? It was about 25 maybe 30 m
00:39:44
away.
00:39:45
>> Oh my god.
00:39:46
>> It bouncing and rolling. It actually uh
00:39:49
it it it hit the because it
00:39:50
guillotineed, but the the glass broke,
00:39:53
but for some unknown reason, there must
00:39:54
have been slight part of the uh the neck
00:39:57
skin must have kept on slightly and it
00:39:59
rebounded backwards and then came away
00:40:01
from the torso cuz that went through and
00:40:03
it went onto a car bonnet outside and
00:40:06
then from that car bonnet it rolled down
00:40:08
and it went into a curb and that's where
00:40:10
it was for about an hour and a half.
00:40:13
And then the the the coroner has to come
00:40:16
and um confirm that there's been a
00:40:19
>> it was the GP that came out. The GP
00:40:21
needs to come out in them days anyway to
00:40:24
confirm ident paramedics do it nowadays
00:40:26
cuz they're highly trained to do that.
00:40:28
But in those days it was a the GP that
00:40:30
used to come out and I'll always always
00:40:33
remember it as if it was yesterday. I'm
00:40:35
standing there, the investigating team
00:40:37
standing there. There was three of us
00:40:38
standing there. The GP's running over
00:40:40
because he's late anyway. And he bends
00:40:42
down. We pulled the red because we'd put
00:40:44
a red uh flannel over by then or
00:40:46
something from the parame. It was of
00:40:49
like a red cotton uh cover. He pulled it
00:40:52
back, knelt down, hand two fingers on
00:40:56
the neck.
00:40:58
Watch.
00:41:00
And he was like that for about 15
00:41:02
seconds. Come off and says, "I can
00:41:04
confirm the person is dead."
00:41:07
And I just went, "No [ __ ] [ __ ]
00:41:09
Sherlock.
00:41:11
This is this is this is a head on its
00:41:14
own. Where the [ __ ] the rest of the
00:41:15
body, you know, but he couldn't get
00:41:17
paid. He wasn't he wasn't to get paid is
00:41:20
£50 until he'd actually confirmed and
00:41:23
done the whole procedure. Even as
00:41:24
someone like me that hasn't done a first
00:41:26
aid call has told you the person was
00:41:28
dead,
00:41:28
>> which is really it's good because we we
00:41:30
laugh about it, but it's it's just one
00:41:32
of those things that, you know, uh
00:41:34
sometimes these these type of scenes can
00:41:36
bring laughter even though it's not,
00:41:39
>> you know, we're not really supposed to
00:41:40
laugh about it, but we do. We we have to
00:41:42
to keep ourselves sane.
00:41:45
>> So So this this the victim here, it's a
00:41:47
complete stranger to you. Do you do you
00:41:49
in the the days or weeks afterwards find
00:41:51
any more information about them? you
00:41:52
learn anything more about them or does
00:41:54
it just pay you not to?
00:41:55
>> It pays me not to.
00:41:56
>> Uh I don't want to know their personal
00:41:59
life. I'm there for to try and give them
00:42:02
uh their family and themselves answers,
00:42:04
but I don't want to get emotionally
00:42:06
involved. So I don't want to start
00:42:07
knowing about their background. We do
00:42:08
hear about the background sometimes. So
00:42:10
we'll we'll hear about where they've
00:42:11
come from or what's actually happened. I
00:42:14
I most of the time I' I'd like to know
00:42:16
what's happened pre uh the examination
00:42:20
just to see if the things that I've
00:42:22
actually picked up and preserved and uh
00:42:25
developed and preserved has been part of
00:42:28
that uh you know the the way that the
00:42:30
person died but I don't want to know
00:42:32
anything before then
00:42:33
>> and the reason for that as well is
00:42:34
because we go to court in the future
00:42:36
>> and I don't want to be biased. I don't
00:42:38
want to be emotionally biased knowing
00:42:40
that I know all about this previous
00:42:42
person's life and I've had a [ __ ] life
00:42:44
and now I'm going to give evidence in
00:42:45
that court and I'm going to try and push
00:42:46
that evidence as much as I can to the
00:42:48
suspect. Forensic science shouldn't be
00:42:50
like that. Forensic science should
00:42:52
always be unbiased. You should be going
00:42:54
there to the court only, not for the
00:42:56
victim and not for the suspect.
00:43:00
If if the victim in that scenario was um
00:43:02
a friend of mine or a brother or someone
00:43:04
that I cared about, I I mean it's a very
00:43:07
violent death. Yeah. And it's it's very
00:43:09
graphic and it's not a even without
00:43:11
seeing it, just hearing it, it's not
00:43:12
something I'd ever be able to get out of
00:43:13
my mind, I don't think. As a as a 24y
00:43:16
old, like how do you Yeah. Did you lean
00:43:19
into alcohol or anything as a coping
00:43:21
mechanism at that age? What did you
00:43:22
>> Everyone at New Scotland Yard lent into
00:43:24
alcohol then. We we was virtually all on
00:43:26
the verge of being alcoholics. It was uh
00:43:29
it was one of those it was one of those
00:43:32
times in one of those eras where we went
00:43:34
to we played uh we worked hard play
00:43:36
hard. So all of us uh once we'd been
00:43:39
done a day's uh work the first place we
00:43:42
went to without any doubt at all
00:43:44
especially at the the Thursday Friday or
00:43:47
well any day of the week really. I'm I'm
00:43:49
just saying that to make myself not feel
00:43:50
really bad. But any day of the week, if
00:43:52
we'd been to a major crime scene, the
00:43:54
first place we went to was the pub and
00:43:56
we got pissed. But I'm young. I was
00:43:58
young there. So I could wake up at 6:00
00:44:00
in the morning and I'd be bright as a,
00:44:02
you know, bright
00:44:03
>> bright and ready to go. If I did that
00:44:05
now, it would be no good at all. But
00:44:07
>> yeah, also um like
00:44:10
yeah, we all know now that that's not
00:44:12
the right way to cope with these things,
00:44:13
but it was how it was at the time. I
00:44:14
suppose back then there were no such
00:44:16
thing as you know psychologists or
00:44:18
therapists and even if you did say that
00:44:21
you needed help, you'd probably be
00:44:22
called a [ __ ]
00:44:22
>> Yes, you was all the time. You know,
00:44:25
there's uh there was certain
00:44:26
circumstances where I've been uh to some
00:44:29
really serious crime scenes there and
00:44:32
you just needed to to to talk to
00:44:34
somebody about it, somebody different.
00:44:36
Not go you you know, I go home to the
00:44:38
wife and tell her, but that's the same
00:44:40
person all the time. So, I just felt
00:44:41
like I needed to to go and speak to
00:44:43
somebody. Uh in those days it was just
00:44:45
not heard of. There was no such thing as
00:44:48
counseling. There was no such thing as
00:44:50
going to uh somebody that uh could
00:44:52
actually just listen to you. It was one
00:44:55
of those, you know, big boy one of the
00:44:57
old boys clubs things again where if you
00:44:59
didn't like it, you don't want like what
00:45:01
you see, piss off,
00:45:03
>> you know, can't stand the heat, get out
00:45:04
of the kitchen.
00:45:05
>> You don't. And there's a lot of my
00:45:06
colleagues now within the Met that have,
00:45:09
you know, it's been with the Met so long
00:45:11
and the Met have got it in place now and
00:45:13
so is the New Zealand police. You know,
00:45:14
they're very very good at it, looking
00:45:16
after their employers. Uh but then
00:45:19
they've bottled it up so much they've
00:45:21
never had no one to talk to. And I I
00:45:23
talk to a person now in uh the UK uh on
00:45:26
a regular basis who's got PTSD,
00:45:29
>> uh who's traumatized by the crimes that
00:45:31
they've seen but have never had anybody
00:45:33
to speak to. And it just bottled up to
00:45:35
so much. It was a pressure cooker. And
00:45:37
one day the person exploded and became a
00:45:39
hermit and didn't know what to do. He
00:45:41
was he was he was ready to to uh throw
00:45:44
in the uh
00:45:45
>> throw throw in the towel.
00:45:50
>> Many decades have passed, so we can we
00:45:52
can laugh now about the absurdity of the
00:45:53
the GP taking the pulse on the neck of
00:45:56
the decapitated head. But
00:45:58
>> did you have nightmares about that or
00:46:00
anything?
00:46:01
>> I I did have nightmares. It was I
00:46:04
wouldn't say nightmares. I was I I that
00:46:06
was the last thing I saw before I went
00:46:10
to sleep. It was all
00:46:12
>> For how long?
00:46:13
>> For I would say for at least a week.
00:46:17
>> That head. So you always the actual
00:46:20
movement of me moving that that coat
00:46:23
that stayed with me for Yeah. for at
00:46:25
least a week. That that was the last
00:46:26
thing I saw uh before darkness, you
00:46:29
know, before before I actually slept.
00:46:31
But I've never I've never got up in a
00:46:34
cold sweat uh and uh you know panicked.
00:46:38
Uh but it that's not to say I've not had
00:46:40
it on the last thing on my mind and the
00:46:42
first thing in the morning as well. You
00:46:44
wake up to it and you go, "Oh yeah, did
00:46:46
that really happen yesterday?" Yeah. Oh
00:46:48
yeah, it was, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You
00:46:49
start trying to put your uh you know,
00:46:51
put your life in order again and go,
00:46:53
"No, let's press on. It's another day,
00:46:56
>> another body."
00:46:57
>> It's It's a lot for a human to process.
00:47:00
>> It It can be. Yeah. That's what people
00:47:01
say. They they they can't understand how
00:47:04
you can keep so much in from the some of
00:47:06
the things you uh seen. How do you
00:47:08
process it? How do you keep it in there?
00:47:10
Uh you know, how do you how do you stop
00:47:12
going sticking two pencils up your nose
00:47:14
and go wibble wibble wibble and sit in
00:47:16
the corner? You know, rocking sitting
00:47:20
facing the corner.
00:47:21
>> Facing the corner.
00:47:22
>> Yeah. I mean, like it gets it gets
00:47:23
bleaker in your book um The Dead Speak.
00:47:25
There's a story on page 129 about a man
00:47:27
who murdered his wife with a hammer. Um,
00:47:30
knowing what we now know about your
00:47:32
upbringing and your personal experience
00:47:35
firsthand with domestic violence, when
00:47:38
you turn up to this crime scene and
00:47:39
there's there's a lady upstairs that's
00:47:41
dead in bed having been had her head and
00:47:43
face smashed in with a hammer and the
00:47:46
her husband who's downstairs sobering up
00:47:49
at this stage, no doubt, confessing to
00:47:51
it.
00:47:53
Yeah. How do you how do you approach
00:47:55
that with professionalism? I, like I
00:47:57
say, I switch on that the professional
00:48:00
mind while I'm in there. And that's not
00:48:02
to that's not to say after I've left the
00:48:04
crime scene. I that that that part of me
00:48:06
is going, "Oh, that that could have
00:48:08
happened. Yeah, that could have happened
00:48:10
to my mom." Quite easy. Uh, it could
00:48:13
have happened. But yeah, you you again,
00:48:15
you've just got to switch that off
00:48:17
because that was quite a gory one. That
00:48:19
was, you know, that was a really nasty
00:48:22
uh nasty offense. any murder is a nasty
00:48:24
offense. But that that was really
00:48:26
graphic. Uh that part the per the person
00:48:28
that did that completely lost it.
00:48:31
>> Uh
00:48:31
>> yeah. After she she came home and
00:48:33
confessed her having an affair and then
00:48:35
she fell asleep and then he attacked her
00:48:37
in his sleep.
00:48:37
>> He went Yeah. He went out and uh went to
00:48:39
the shed and got a hammer and went
00:48:40
straight upstairs. Very methodical. He
00:48:42
wanted to do it. Uh still drunk
00:48:45
obviously. He most probably regretted it
00:48:46
in the morning. Uh put a put a uh a
00:48:50
pillow over the head. that wasn't going
00:48:53
to stop it. And uh yeah, just hammered
00:48:55
her. And it was really really quite
00:48:57
graphic.
00:49:03
In a case like that where um the husband
00:49:06
has called um and confessed to this
00:49:09
crime and you've come around and he's
00:49:10
there and the murder weapon's there, why
00:49:13
is it necessary to do such a thorough
00:49:15
crime examination? There's that saying
00:49:18
an open shut case.
00:49:19
>> Yeah, we get that. We get asked that
00:49:21
that a lot of times as well if it's if
00:49:24
it's so open and short where the
00:49:25
person's uh sat there cuz this person
00:49:28
did they phoned the police. They sat
00:49:30
there and said uh uh it was me. Don't
00:49:33
worry, I've committed the crime. Open
00:49:35
shut case. Okay, fine. But forensic
00:49:38
science doesn't we're not there with a
00:49:40
forensic science. We get one chance. We
00:49:43
go into that crime scene. We're looking
00:49:44
for the evidence on all evidence that
00:49:47
could link a person to have committed
00:49:49
this crime because once we go things
00:49:53
change, they're all going to change. So,
00:49:54
they're going to clean up. Everything's
00:49:55
going to be put back to normal. So, we
00:49:56
can't go back to that crime scene again.
00:49:59
So, what happens in two weeks time where
00:50:02
that scenario changes, the person
00:50:04
actually didn't do that. They've changed
00:50:06
their story and they're saying, "Well,
00:50:07
it actually wasn't me. It was my brother
00:50:10
>> who uh came in. We were both here and he
00:50:13
did it, but I I I just wanted to say it
00:50:16
was me or I thought it was me. I woke up
00:50:18
and I thought it was me. So, who's to
00:50:20
say it wasn't somebody else? Who's to
00:50:21
say that the person is going through uh
00:50:24
mental challenges and they've just made
00:50:26
it up themselves or they've come in?
00:50:27
Nobody knows. Do you know that the the
00:50:30
actual story could change over a period
00:50:32
of time? So, we have to gather all that
00:50:34
information uh at the time just in case
00:50:36
of those changes within the uh uh time
00:50:39
frame and story. Was
00:50:42
it was it was it the story in the book
00:50:44
where you move the body and the eyeball
00:50:46
the eyeball falls out?
00:50:47
>> It was that was a terrible moment. It
00:50:49
was it was uh the we was uh well I was
00:50:52
moving the body to put it into the uh
00:50:54
the body bag uh because the the the face
00:50:58
was quite badly uh deformed through the
00:51:01
injuries. Uh the the the side of the
00:51:05
face was all caved in. Moved the head to
00:51:08
the side. the eye popped out, rolled
00:51:11
onto my knee. We had to put it back in
00:51:15
so that uh we could put it back in the
00:51:16
bag. So yeah, the things do like that
00:51:18
things like that happen. It was just it
00:51:21
was just one of those things. You you
00:51:22
you just do it. It's just part of the
00:51:25
job. It's just you you just it's just a
00:51:27
natural instinct. You you're not going
00:51:29
to sit there and cry because it's there.
00:51:31
You've got to get on with it and just
00:51:32
put it back and carry on with it. What
00:51:35
do you what do you do after a shift like
00:51:36
that
00:51:38
>> then? Then
00:51:39
>> oh go get pissed.
00:51:41
>> You get pissed. Now it's completely
00:51:43
different. It's completely different way
00:51:44
of life. You just you just go home. And
00:51:46
I just I used to just go home and I like
00:51:48
watching TV and I like what reading
00:51:50
journals. Uh I like going for a walk. I
00:51:53
like to see I like to see nature.
00:51:55
Strangely enough strangely enough I love
00:51:58
to feed sparrows. That's one of my
00:52:00
hobbies. I love to sit there and look at
00:52:03
watch sparrows. I just think they're the
00:52:05
underrated bird of the the world. I
00:52:07
really do. Forget your parents. No,
00:52:09
forget your parents and all that. So,
00:52:11
the emuse's I think they're just
00:52:13
overrated. I just love the common
00:52:14
household sparrow and I just it just
00:52:16
relaxes me when they when they're
00:52:18
eating. I don't know why. It's just
00:52:20
really sad.
00:52:21
>> Um there's a phrase that uh gets used in
00:52:24
your book um a few times actually or
00:52:26
variations of it. The stench of death.
00:52:29
>> Yes. The stench of death. I would never
00:52:32
uh never get rid of that. Uh knowing
00:52:35
what the stench of death is like. It's
00:52:37
it's a really strange
00:52:40
smell uh that stays with you all the
00:52:42
time. I know where when death is around
00:52:45
and I know the smell of death before
00:52:46
I've gone into a crime scene because it
00:52:48
starts hitting you especially in the
00:52:50
mort. A mortary has got a smell all to
00:52:51
itself. You you no matter how much you
00:52:53
clean a morttery that smell will always
00:52:56
be there. It's that smell of
00:52:57
disinfectant and death all at the same
00:52:59
time. And I was saying this uh earlier
00:53:02
which just popped up. It was uh one of
00:53:04
those things that uh my sense of smell
00:53:08
for death is so acute that a cat my cat
00:53:12
bought in a mouse put it underneath it
00:53:14
killed it. Put it underneath the sofa
00:53:17
and after I think it was 2 days I could
00:53:19
smell the death of the mouse even though
00:53:21
it was that small. No one else in the
00:53:22
house. They thought I was going mad and
00:53:24
and I said, "No, the smell of death in
00:53:26
this house and I don't know where it is,
00:53:28
but the smell of death." Next day we
00:53:30
moved the seti there was the mouse.
00:53:33
>> Seems like you you've got a good nose. I
00:53:34
feel
00:53:34
>> I've got a fantastic nose
00:53:36
>> for this job. It's probably a bonus to
00:53:38
have a terrible nose.
00:53:39
>> It would be actually a really good If
00:53:41
you had no sense of smell, then this
00:53:42
job's for you.
00:53:44
>> Well, what is there any way you can
00:53:46
describe it?
00:53:48
>> It's like compare it to something.
00:53:50
>> Yeah. Okay. So try having diarrhea and
00:53:55
vomit at the same time put in a bowl
00:53:59
and uh
00:54:02
smell that. It's it's a Yeah, it's so
00:54:06
it's like a vomit
00:54:08
and diarrhea that's just been cooked
00:54:11
slightly to give it that odor. So that
00:54:13
odor that comes away from slightly
00:54:14
cooking it and awful. So just a slight
00:54:17
awful. So if you got liver, cook liver
00:54:20
slightly and then mash that up and be
00:54:22
sick in it as well. That's the smell of
00:54:25
uh that that that seems to be like the
00:54:27
smell of death. And when I went to one
00:54:29
of my first mortaries uh with the smell
00:54:31
of death, the the pathologist that was
00:54:32
there uh very animate guy that was uh
00:54:35
performing it. Uh we went in there first
00:54:37
of all it was a really smelly body. It
00:54:39
was a floater, what we call a floater,
00:54:41
where a person had been uh found in the
00:54:43
the water and they popped to the top
00:54:45
when the gases have come out. And uh
00:54:49
we he we went in there and his assistant
00:54:51
went, "Right, you all need to put some
00:54:53
mint on because it'll disguise the smell
00:54:56
of the odor that's going to come out cuz
00:54:58
as soon as we cut into there, this gas
00:55:00
is going to come out and it's going to
00:55:01
overwhelm you." So, we all put this mint
00:55:03
on. This was the first mortar I've been,
00:55:05
the first postmortem I've been to. We
00:55:07
all put this mint on. It cut down the
00:55:09
body. Gases came out and I was really
00:55:14
ill at that point. All I could smell was
00:55:17
that vomit [ __ ] smell with mint and it
00:55:22
was the worst smell ever. And I've never
00:55:24
ever put it on since. I've always wanted
00:55:27
just that smell. Not just that smell,
00:55:29
but I've always I've always I've always
00:55:32
preferred just the smell of death on its
00:55:34
own than trying to hide it or mask it.
00:55:38
So, so meant like um like underneath
00:55:40
your nose.
00:55:40
>> Just like a fix. It was like a vix rub
00:55:42
from a vapor rub.
00:55:43
>> Yeah. What else? Did you have masks?
00:55:45
>> Uh then? No. No. No. Well, no, you
00:55:47
didn't have masks then. You do now, but
00:55:49
then it was a
00:55:51
>> uh especially when uh he was going
00:55:53
around and he he was picking out bits of
00:55:56
the body, uh the putrid parts of the
00:55:58
body that all started to uh putrify and
00:56:02
he was flinging about and blood was all
00:56:04
coming down. So, we had blood all over
00:56:06
all over our suits. Uh, we had no over
00:56:09
Oh, no. We had the green gown on. Uh,
00:56:11
but there was nothing else. And that
00:56:13
that was the first time I turned around
00:56:15
and was ready to walk out. Uh, but since
00:56:19
then standards have changed. You know,
00:56:21
you don't get the pathologist walking in
00:56:22
with cigarette in his hand and a
00:56:25
sandwich in the other one ready to cut
00:56:28
over. And that's what they did. You
00:56:29
know, even my first few postmortems.
00:56:30
There he is. cigarette in hand, sandwich
00:56:32
in the corner, ashtray, and uh just
00:56:35
carried on as if it was just, you know,
00:56:36
he was, you know, cutting into an
00:56:39
animal.
00:56:43
>> Man, you've seen some stuff.
00:56:44
>> I have. I've seen I've seen uh lots and
00:56:48
lots of things in my life. Uh some
00:56:51
obviously some are good, but uh there's
00:56:53
a lot uh that uh really really do play,
00:56:56
you know, that that I've seen. And it's
00:56:58
not it's remember it's not just about
00:57:00
the the murder ones uh even the the the
00:57:04
victims of crime that I see themselves.
00:57:06
So going to like a burglary artifice. So
00:57:09
burglary artifice is where normally an
00:57:11
elderly person and a person has come in
00:57:13
uh play acting as a uh you know a gas
00:57:16
man or an electric man and they they say
00:57:19
look I need to go and test your
00:57:20
appliances and the little old lady or
00:57:22
the little old man says yeah yeah please
00:57:23
come in and they they say they start
00:57:26
sitting them down with a notebook and
00:57:27
they say right we go did you have a gas
00:57:30
leak here and then they say oh do you
00:57:31
mind if I go to the toilet
00:57:34
they're still sitting there and they're
00:57:35
going around and they're taking all
00:57:37
their valuables M
00:57:38
>> and then they go and then the little old
00:57:40
lady afterwards they make the excuse and
00:57:42
go the little old lady afterwards maybe
00:57:44
the day after uh finds out their life
00:57:47
savings are gone cuz they never use
00:57:48
banks then they put it in there and that
00:57:50
they those sort of crimes is really
00:57:52
quite uh you know that that is one of
00:57:54
the worst of humanity.
00:57:57
>> Yeah. There's a thing in in a quote I
00:57:59
had written down from your book where
00:58:00
you talk about um things involving um
00:58:02
young children and the elderly are the
00:58:04
ones that impacted you the most.
00:58:06
>> It is. Yeah. the the ones that uh where
00:58:08
they've got no
00:58:10
uh self-defense of themselves. You know,
00:58:13
if you if you're caught in a fight going
00:58:14
through that, there's a there's a slight
00:58:16
chance that, you know, you you could
00:58:18
fight back. But when you're a vulnerable
00:58:20
child or a vulnerable uh elderly person,
00:58:23
>> there's no fighting back. That that's
00:58:26
the cruel thing about crimes. Yeah. When
00:58:28
you when you're talking about uh uh
00:58:30
crimes against those those sort of
00:58:32
individuals.
00:58:33
>> So, everything we've we've been going
00:58:35
almost an hour. Everything we've
00:58:36
discussed so far is from your time um at
00:58:38
Scotland Yard in the UK. Then you moved
00:58:40
to New Zealand in 2003.
00:58:42
>> Yes.
00:58:43
>> First observations.
00:58:44
>> I loved it because we came over on a
00:58:46
holiday first of all. So it was
00:58:49
>> there's a quote in your book that I
00:58:50
really liked and I'd never heard it
00:58:51
before. Something like um you go on a
00:58:53
plane for 24 hours and you go back in
00:58:55
time 20 years.
00:58:55
>> It Yeah. So you you come you turn your
00:58:58
clock back 12 hours. Okay. Or you put
00:59:01
your clock forward 12 hours. You put
00:59:03
your life back 20 years. And that's how
00:59:05
it was. That's how I felt, you know, cuz
00:59:06
you you you you was in the hustle and
00:59:08
bustle of uh New Scotland Yard and
00:59:10
Westminster and all of these people all
00:59:12
around you and then you get off the
00:59:14
plane in uh in uh Oakland and you go,
00:59:17
you know, I was over on the Northshore
00:59:19
at the time and there's kids walking
00:59:20
around barefoot, you know, people in
00:59:22
jandles. I never knew they were called
00:59:24
jadle. We call them flip flop flip
00:59:25
flops, you know, and it took me at least
00:59:28
2 years to actually get the term jandals
00:59:30
in into my head. But there's people
00:59:32
wandering around so relaxed and they've
00:59:34
got the shorts on and it was like, wow,
00:59:36
this is a different world, is you know,
00:59:37
you just wouldn't get that in the UK.
00:59:39
>> Well, it must have been a shock for you
00:59:41
the first time you went to a packing
00:59:42
sale and you saw people in pajamas or
00:59:45
>> it was I just thought I'd actually come
00:59:47
to some Ludy bin. It was like
00:59:50
it was it was a completely different
00:59:52
aspect on life. It was just like, "Oh,
00:59:54
these people are really cool. They're so
00:59:56
laid-back." It was uh and and I I got
00:59:59
that I got that saying. I'm thinking,
01:00:00
"Yes, it is. This is 20 years ago. This
01:00:03
is how it was in the 80s for me."
01:00:06
>> What about escalators here at the mall?
01:00:07
Did you find them weird? I I I This is
01:00:09
one thing I love about the UK where you
01:00:12
if you're not walking, you stand to the
01:00:13
left.
01:00:14
>> Everyone's in a hurry. I love the
01:00:16
efficiency of the UK.
01:00:17
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:19
I always remember the first time I was s
01:00:21
standing there on the escalators on the
01:00:23
left hand side and people are plowing
01:00:25
down me and I'm going where the [ __ ] are
01:00:27
you going and they're trying to knock
01:00:28
you out of the way and I'm going cuz you
01:00:29
always are especially on the under
01:00:31
underground the underground if you're
01:00:33
not on the left hand side you're going
01:00:34
to get swept away you learn that on day
01:00:37
one.
01:00:37
>> Yeah. You don't know where you're going.
01:00:39
It's just like keep to the left. You're
01:00:40
all it's it's always best.
01:00:42
>> So um you joined the New Zealand police
01:00:45
here almost immediately. Um what were
01:00:47
your first impressions? Were we
01:00:48
backwards similar or more advanced?
01:00:51
>> No, I I wouldn't say backwards. The New
01:00:53
Zealand police here was uh cuz we we I
01:00:56
wouldn't say piggyback the UK. Uh but we
01:00:59
have the same influences and the same uh
01:01:02
uh jurisdictions, so the same court
01:01:05
proceedings as they do in the UK. So we
01:01:07
piggybacked or we piggyback each other
01:01:09
from there. So the the I I the it was
01:01:13
just the way of working that was
01:01:17
slightly different. Everyone's more in a
01:01:19
rush to get a job done in the UK where
01:01:22
over here it was a little bit more at
01:01:24
the beginning a little bit more relaxed
01:01:25
and uh you know she'll be fine.
01:01:28
>> And uh the the the processes the the the
01:01:33
actual working tools were really really
01:01:36
cool. There was they were second to none
01:01:38
over here.
01:01:39
I can't, you know, I can't slag off the
01:01:42
the the equipment or anything like that
01:01:44
cuz it was we we over here we had, you
01:01:46
know, some of the best technology
01:01:48
because the we had a lot of the
01:01:50
companies that wanted to test it because
01:01:51
we were like a testing ground. We only
01:01:53
had a population then of about 5 million
01:01:55
people. So we was a perfect testing
01:01:57
ground for the new forensic uh you know
01:02:01
databases. So DNA database of the the
01:02:03
fingerprint database. we had such a nice
01:02:05
population but in a big area just like
01:02:07
the same as UK that we they could use
01:02:10
and test these uh these these
01:02:12
instruments.
01:02:13
>> Yeah. And I feel like yeah I mean it's
01:02:14
only 23 years ago that we're talking but
01:02:16
I feel like New Zealand was um a
01:02:18
different place then may maybe more
01:02:20
innocent than what it is now. Like
01:02:22
violent crime and stabbings in
01:02:23
particular are fairly you know common
01:02:26
place sadly in New Zealand now. But um
01:02:28
back then I suppose you you could sit
01:02:30
around twiddling your fingers and thumbs
01:02:31
for a while waiting for something.
01:02:34
drastic to happen.
01:02:35
>> It was Yeah. So, was it was a it wasn't
01:02:39
common, but we dealt with a lot of
01:02:40
deaths that uh on the other side as
01:02:42
well. So, you know, uh people just been
01:02:45
found uh dead on the side of, you know,
01:02:48
we don't know how they died. So, we was
01:02:50
at the mortuary all the time trying to
01:02:52
identify them. Uh so, they didn't need
01:02:55
to be in a you know, certain in, you
01:02:57
know, a typical murder crime. It could
01:02:59
have been any time. any unknown deaths
01:03:02
uh that they could have come from and we
01:03:04
would have gone to them.
01:03:05
>> Yeah. How long were you here before you
01:03:07
started to feel like a Kiwi?
01:03:09
>> It actually took me a few years. I must
01:03:12
admit it wasn't an overnight experience.
01:03:14
Uh especially Christmas.
01:03:16
>> Well, we're recording this in a January.
01:03:17
You're wearing a Hawaiian shirt. So,
01:03:19
>> yes, I am. I'm here now. Still got jeans
01:03:21
on. Still still got away from
01:03:25
>> I've still not wear the shorts.
01:03:27
So, that's that's still a few years away
01:03:29
yet.
01:03:30
Well, can you remember the first time
01:03:32
you had like a conversation with someone
01:03:34
back home and they they told you you'd
01:03:36
turned into a kiwi?
01:03:37
>> Yeah, that was a I get that all the time
01:03:39
now, but I think it took about 5 years.
01:03:42
I got quite a course accident. You can
01:03:43
tell, you know, it's there's the accent
01:03:46
there. Okay.
01:03:47
>> But you talk to my family over in uh in
01:03:50
Britain. Oh, you're posh. You know,
01:03:54
>> you're where where's your accent gone?
01:03:56
you know, and they're all ebaggum, you
01:03:58
know, no and bul and all that. And when
01:04:01
I speak to them, my I still think I've
01:04:04
got a really bad northern accent,
01:04:05
especially when I speak to people. Even
01:04:07
now, my daughter, you know, she when
01:04:08
when she used to be at school, it was
01:04:10
like, "Dad, don't say anything to the
01:04:12
teachers cuz, you know, they won't
01:04:13
understand you."
01:04:16
>> That's so
01:04:18
And I I lived with that for for ages.
01:04:21
But then you speak to your family
01:04:22
members back in the UK and they go, "Oh,
01:04:24
you've gone so posh nowadays. you know,
01:04:25
you you've lost your accent. It's all
01:04:27
gone.
01:04:28
>> So, they think you you don't fit in
01:04:30
here.
01:04:30
>> I don't fit in there. Fit in there. It's
01:04:31
like no man's land. Okay, I'll just keep
01:04:33
quiet.
01:04:34
>> Um Yeah. So, you're you moved to New
01:04:36
Zealand. You're here for I suppose like
01:04:38
2 years or so. And then um the um Boxing
01:04:41
Day tsunami happens in Indonesia and
01:04:44
you're over there um in a role called
01:04:47
DVI. What's DVI?
01:04:49
>> So, disaster victim identification. So
01:04:51
there's a team of us that go over there
01:04:53
uh to be part of a big uh multinational
01:04:56
team to identify the victims of the
01:04:59
disaster.
01:05:00
>> And that was really overwhelming. Yeah.
01:05:02
>> For anyone that can't remember um or was
01:05:05
maybe too young to remember, 275,000
01:05:08
>> 275,000 that we know of uh on average uh
01:05:12
died from those massive waves that hit I
01:05:15
think it was 12 continents
01:05:18
in Asia. How do you feel when you get
01:05:20
asked to go? Are you apprehensive or
01:05:22
excited?
01:05:23
>> No. Always apprehensive. It's the
01:05:25
unknown. You don't know what you're
01:05:26
going to face? You don't know if uh
01:05:28
there's going to be another earthquake.
01:05:30
You don't know if something's going to
01:05:32
happen on route,
01:05:35
what you're going to see, how bad are
01:05:37
the body's going to be. So, you're
01:05:39
always on edge until you get there again
01:05:42
and you put that PPE gear on and you
01:05:45
start going into it and you start doing
01:05:46
your job. M yeah there's a passage in
01:05:49
the book on page um 32 which I marked
01:05:52
with a post-it note. Uh this is one of
01:05:54
the the passages where I was reading it
01:05:56
uh in the office and some of the girls
01:05:57
were really enjoying it. Some of them
01:05:59
couldn't listen to it. Um
01:06:02
yeah. Should I read this out? Do you
01:06:04
want to read this out?
01:06:05
>> How's your eyes? How's your eyesight?
01:06:07
I'm sure I can do it at arms length.
01:06:10
>> Everything's at arms length now. It's
01:06:11
getting further away. See the the bit
01:06:13
there about you wearing wearing um
01:06:17
so uh so we're doing during
01:06:19
putrification.
01:06:20
>> Yeah.
01:06:20
>> So during putification the body is
01:06:22
rapidly uh rapidly decaying emitting
01:06:25
foul odor and becoming wet and mushy.
01:06:28
The epidermal layer of the skin detaches
01:06:30
from the dermal layer. So when the body
01:06:32
uh body bags were opened the skin was
01:06:35
often found floating in the goo and ooze
01:06:38
uh released from the body. So we had to
01:06:40
reach into the uh odorous goo to
01:06:42
retrieve the skin from the hands and
01:06:44
feet and clean it with soapy water. We
01:06:47
would then place the skin of the
01:06:48
deceased fingers on our own hand like a
01:06:51
glove. It's called deg gloving and uh
01:06:54
record the fine detail using black
01:06:56
powder and white sticky labels or black
01:06:58
ink on a specialized fingerprint form.
01:07:01
Uh this process is known as de- gloving.
01:07:03
And then you got the mummification one
01:07:05
as well which is the boiling hand one
01:07:06
which it might be too graphic to go
01:07:08
into.
01:07:12
Yeah, I mean it's it's not not an easy
01:07:14
read and it's not easy to hear. Um but
01:07:17
it's important work that you're doing.
01:07:19
>> It's extremely important work. It's uh
01:07:21
that that's what keeps you going is
01:07:23
because of the importance of the work
01:07:25
knowing that you're you're there for a
01:07:28
purpose and that purpose is to get these
01:07:30
uh these individuals back to their loved
01:07:32
ones. And you do it which way you can,
01:07:35
you know, the best way you can. And if
01:07:38
if it means uh which seems strange, if
01:07:41
it means being part of them by putting
01:07:43
their skin on you to to to get that uh
01:07:45
information, then so be it. We'll do
01:07:47
that.
01:07:48
>> Uh because if that's the best way to
01:07:50
record that fine, rich detail, then
01:07:52
we'll do that.
01:07:54
>> I I don't know. I I I suppose it's just
01:07:56
alarming. Like it was alarming for I'm
01:07:57
I'm a 53 year old man. I'm old as [ __ ]
01:08:00
I've got no idea.
01:08:01
>> I'm 58.
01:08:03
No, but this has been your your life and
01:08:05
it's um it's it's a it's a it's a world
01:08:07
that luckily I've been um you know
01:08:09
completely um sheltered from. Um but
01:08:12
this is a reality and it's a it's a it's
01:08:14
a job that you and many other people are
01:08:16
doing. But that's what I wanted to show
01:08:18
in the book that you know the the
01:08:20
processes that these these professional
01:08:23
people within the police uh and the the
01:08:25
you know the scientists that go with
01:08:27
them uh of how we actually go into so
01:08:30
much detail to try and make sure there's
01:08:32
no mistakes. That's the last thing we
01:08:34
want to make is those mistakes. It
01:08:35
happened in Air India as we know you
01:08:37
know the wrong bodies went to the wrong
01:08:38
people should never happen and uh you
01:08:41
know then that was just through you know
01:08:43
the the the way that it was processed
01:08:46
you know the the information was put in
01:08:47
the wrong places uh but it's it was it
01:08:51
would never happen over there and it
01:08:53
would certainly never happen over here
01:08:54
you know the DVI team here is second to
01:08:56
none
01:08:58
>> when you're over there say um Indonesia
01:09:00
or Christ Church for the earthquake um
01:09:03
and you call home to speak to Alien
01:09:04
Hannah
01:09:05
Um, and they ask how your day was like,
01:09:07
do you do you lie or do you just brush
01:09:09
over it? What do you
01:09:10
>> No, in the Thai tsunami one, I lied.
01:09:12
>> I told them uh what they wanted to hear
01:09:15
that I was safe and well.
01:09:17
>> And then all I wanted to know was their
01:09:19
day, what they've been through, you
01:09:20
know. I wanted to hear the good part.
01:09:22
Yeah. I I just wanted to feel good
01:09:24
inside that somebody uh you that I loved
01:09:29
was going through a normal day when I
01:09:31
wasn't.
01:09:33
I'm probably projecting here, but how
01:09:35
how do you not get impatient with them
01:09:36
on the phone if they're venting about
01:09:37
trivial [ __ ]
01:09:39
That did actually happen once. Yeah,
01:09:43
that that happened with the wife and
01:09:45
she's she's telling me, "Oh, well, you
01:09:46
know, I've got I've got to do this
01:09:47
tomorrow and I really don't want to do
01:09:49
that." And I went, "What the [ __ ] Come
01:09:50
on." And then I realized I'd said it and
01:09:53
I went, "Oh, you know, okay, maybe, you
01:09:55
know, I'm going to I wanted to hear
01:09:57
about your your day and then just
01:09:59
because you said something that was just
01:10:00
slightly, you know, out of context, I go
01:10:03
and take it out of you, which it should
01:10:04
never have happened."
01:10:05
>> It's understandable though cuz you were
01:10:07
surrounded by by death and just this
01:10:09
unimaginable grief. And I suppose it
01:10:11
just realizes just how inane
01:10:13
>> almost everything else is in comparison.
01:10:15
>> It is, especially when you're being at
01:10:17
the morttery, you've got bodies after
01:10:19
bodies. They're just coming through.
01:10:20
It's just constant flow. It's like a
01:10:22
production line. And then outside when
01:10:24
you're having your break, so you're
01:10:25
sitting there trying to eat. Okay. And
01:10:28
then in front of you there's 20 porter
01:10:30
cabins. Oh, not porter cabins, 20
01:10:32
containers. And within those 20
01:10:34
containers, 50 other bodies. So now
01:10:37
you've got hundreds of people. You're
01:10:38
eating and you've got hundreds of people
01:10:42
that are now waiting to come and see
01:10:43
you.
01:10:45
>> And that's the reality. That's not
01:10:46
that's what I didn't want to say to her
01:10:49
at the time. Oh, it's it's all I'm
01:10:51
seeing is just there's a body. There's a
01:10:54
body.
01:10:55
>> And you know, I didn't want to say that.
01:10:56
So, but that that was the reality of it.
01:10:58
We knew that we was going to get body
01:11:00
after body after body.
01:11:02
>> You you mentioned eating just before,
01:11:04
not not the lobster.
01:11:07
>> That was that was a really foolish
01:11:09
mistake I made. It was my first night in
01:11:12
Thailand. And I'm it was because we was
01:11:14
in the a really good class hotel that
01:11:16
they'd uh made ready uh really quickly
01:11:19
for the the police personnel from around
01:11:21
the world. And I sat there and I looked
01:11:23
at the menu and they went, "Don't worry,
01:11:25
we can eat anything. You can absolutely
01:11:27
have anything on the menu." So me being
01:11:30
a greedy council lad, you know, from the
01:11:31
past, I've not had lobster for years.
01:11:34
And I seen it on there and I went, "So
01:11:36
can I have a lobster?" "Yeah, yeah, you
01:11:38
can have lobster." Okay. Got ordered,
01:11:40
started eating the lobster. and a German
01:11:43
uh from one of the German DVI team came
01:11:44
over. He'd been here for about 2 and 1/2
01:11:46
weeks and he came over and goes, "You do
01:11:50
you know what you're eating?" "Yeah,
01:11:51
it's a lobster." "Do you know where that
01:11:53
lobster's been? It was caught
01:11:55
yesterday." "Yeah, do you know there's
01:11:57
hundreds of bodies still in the sea and
01:11:59
that lobster was most probably eating
01:12:01
them the couple of days ago."
01:12:03
And that was when reality hit. And
01:12:06
that's when I be I started becoming a
01:12:08
vegetarian just for that just for that
01:12:10
period while I was over there. I ate I
01:12:11
ate no meat. I ate nothing to do with
01:12:13
animals. Uh just because of that one
01:12:17
fatal uh mistake of making it on, you
01:12:19
know, eating that nighttime.
01:12:21
>> I mean um yeah, you you have to eat. You
01:12:24
do. Anyone is I think a lot of people
01:12:26
listening to this will probably wonder
01:12:27
how you how you you could keep your
01:12:29
appetite in that sort of environment
01:12:30
>> because you because you're uh working so
01:12:33
hard in a hot environment. So it's like
01:12:34
35°. You've got your PPE gear on. Okay.
01:12:38
Some so some of the time I was working
01:12:39
in in the uh offices at the IMC center
01:12:42
the information center where the
01:12:44
antimortar and postmortar were being
01:12:45
brought together wonderful air
01:12:47
conditioned room but I wanted to work in
01:12:49
the morttery as well. So I I had hate to
01:12:51
say it but the best both worlds so the
01:12:53
best both of experiences of working at
01:12:55
the IMC and the morttery but in the
01:12:57
mortary it's completely different.
01:12:58
There's no air conditioning there's no
01:13:00
cooling you've got full PPE gear on.
01:13:02
We've got all of the mass because we
01:13:04
don't know uh what uh we know the state
01:13:07
of the bodies where they're going
01:13:08
through putrification uh but uh we don't
01:13:10
know what diseases they may have. So
01:13:12
you've got to get fully kitted out 35
01:13:14
degrees of heat all say all in. So you
01:13:17
have to hydrate all the time completely
01:13:20
after kit that's number one is just
01:13:22
drink but you do get hungry because you
01:13:24
are actually you know taking
01:13:26
>> uh taking a lot out of you from that day
01:13:28
and if you don't eat you're not going to
01:13:30
be ready for the next day. So you do
01:13:31
force yourself time to eat uh because
01:13:34
you know that you've got to be fit and
01:13:36
healthy for that next day. You're not
01:13:37
you're not going to be doing anybody any
01:13:39
good by collapsing or fainting inside
01:13:41
the morttery.
01:13:43
>> What what was the the main cause of
01:13:45
death uh over there? It wasn't drowning
01:13:48
per se, was it?
01:13:50
>> No, it was actually most of it was by uh
01:13:53
implements hitting people as they're
01:13:55
being swept away on the water. So bits
01:13:57
of car, bits of wood, shrapnel that was
01:13:59
actually going into
01:14:01
>> the uh the the person's body which was
01:14:03
caused slicing major arteries and they
01:14:05
were bleeding to death.
01:14:06
>> So that was a lot of the injuries. We
01:14:08
seen a lot of tear issu tear injuries
01:14:11
and cut injuries from the deceased
01:14:13
people. When there's that much death in
01:14:16
a concentrated area, um the stench of
01:14:19
death that you talk about, is it
01:14:20
confined to your working environment or
01:14:22
can you smell it like all over the the
01:14:23
region? No, it was like it was just in
01:14:26
the mortaries uh area they were the that
01:14:29
you could
01:14:31
you the people were getting back to
01:14:33
trying to get back to normality. So the
01:14:35
locals were starting to cook in the
01:14:36
streets again. So that was actually uh
01:14:39
mimic uh you know getting getting rid of
01:14:40
any of the odor that was coming around
01:14:42
anyway. But the the the mortar itself
01:14:44
you you could smell the morttery from I
01:14:46
would say 300 m away.
01:14:49
>> Okay.
01:14:49
>> So going into the morttery you could
01:14:51
smell that from quite a far away. I
01:14:53
mean, yeah, life go life goes on. That's
01:14:55
one thing you learn. Yeah. How how
01:14:56
quickly after the tsunami were people
01:14:58
like cooking in the streets again and
01:15:00
selling the fake watches and the DVDs.
01:15:01
>> Yeah. Yeah. That was alo only after a
01:15:05
couple of weeks they trying to get to
01:15:06
back to some normality because a lot of
01:15:08
the time they're not getting any money,
01:15:10
>> you know, they have to carry on. They
01:15:12
have to Yeah. They have to carry on with
01:15:14
life or else they're they're they're
01:15:16
going to starve to death.
01:15:18
>> Yeah. I bring up the watches and the
01:15:19
DVDs because you talk about that in the
01:15:20
book. Um, even though you're an officer
01:15:22
of the law,
01:15:23
>> that was you were still purchasing these
01:15:26
goods that were you knew were less than
01:15:29
ethical. You know, there was three or
01:15:31
four times when I was going to admit
01:15:32
that from the book. I thought I was
01:15:35
thinking about it so often and I I
01:15:37
actually thought the publishers were
01:15:38
going to re take it out. That that was
01:15:41
my part. I thought that's going to be
01:15:42
too close to the cuff. They're going to
01:15:44
take that part out because I was going
01:15:45
to take it out myself three or four
01:15:46
times. And then I thought, no, that's
01:15:48
that's that's the reality of it. I
01:15:50
actually bought those items because I
01:15:52
thought at that time I was helping the
01:15:55
economy of the region.
01:15:56
>> Oh, come on, Tom. You could have just
01:15:58
made a donation. No, it's it's it's very
01:16:00
relatable. Like anyone that went to like
01:16:02
Thailand or Vietnam or Puket around that
01:16:05
time probably came home with a with like
01:16:07
a wallet full of DVDs.
01:16:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't get me wrong. I
01:16:09
wasn't like Dellboy when I opened my my
01:16:11
coat and there was watches all down the
01:16:13
side. I only bought one watch, you know.
01:16:15
I'm not I'm not going to sell them at
01:16:16
home. Okay. Buying it from personal
01:16:18
supply. Does that make it any better?
01:16:20
>> That made me feel better.
01:16:22
>> And then um so you come you come home uh
01:16:24
and you there's like one um a debriefing
01:16:27
with the psychologist which is like a
01:16:28
1-hour mandatory thing.
01:16:30
>> Um
01:16:32
>> I don't The synic says that's like a box
01:16:34
tick ticking exercise. What can you do
01:16:36
in 1 hour?
01:16:37
>> No, it was so you had that debriefing
01:16:40
when you came back anyway. That was just
01:16:41
to make sure that you were signed up.
01:16:43
You could be signed to go back to work
01:16:45
again, but there were follow-ups. So you
01:16:47
could get follow-up ones uh if if
01:16:50
required or you felt there was a need to
01:16:52
uh the the police always had them uh
01:16:54
open and ready for anybody, not just
01:16:57
from going to the tie, but for anyone
01:16:59
that had been to any crime scene. So
01:17:01
it's been it's it's it's
01:17:04
been well put in place for uh police
01:17:06
employees.
01:17:09
>> Back then 2005, we were like were you
01:17:11
honest with the therapist or did you put
01:17:14
on a brave face?
01:17:16
If you want to know the truth, I put on
01:17:18
a brave face.
01:17:19
>> Yeah. It's 20 years ago.
01:17:20
>> Yeah. Yeah. I put on a brave face.
01:17:23
>> I was hiding uh a lot of the things that
01:17:28
cuz it was a stranger. I'm not one of
01:17:30
these people that was very good to talk
01:17:32
to to strangers. You know, most of the
01:17:34
jobs I do, I'm not talking to anyone
01:17:35
because they're not going to talk back
01:17:36
to me. But, uh it was really difficult
01:17:39
for me to tell somebody that I never
01:17:42
knew before what I'd seen. Mhm.
01:17:45
>> But then after about half an hour,
01:17:47
they're very good at bringing and
01:17:49
drawing that out to you. But I still hid
01:17:51
quite a lot. I was never ever going to
01:17:53
tell anybody, not even my wife some of
01:17:56
the things that uh uh that I've seen uh
01:18:00
over over there or some of the incidents
01:18:01
I've been to
01:18:02
>> and I would never would.
01:18:04
>> At the time, did you find that
01:18:06
beneficial or did it feel like just an
01:18:07
unnecessary speed hump? Then
01:18:11
>> I found it uh just as a a way to get
01:18:14
back into my position and get back to
01:18:16
work.
01:18:16
>> But since then I've been so you know for
01:18:20
after those periods so that the the
01:18:21
Christ Church earthquake and that we
01:18:23
went uh more frequently to the
01:18:26
psychologist and I actually felt uh more
01:18:30
comfortable talking about who I was.
01:18:32
Maybe it was cuz I was older. Maybe I
01:18:34
was because I was maturing more, but I
01:18:37
felt more comfortable being more open
01:18:38
and transparent to to the person I was
01:18:41
talking to. And I felt better for it.
01:18:43
>> It did make me feel good that I'm
01:18:45
speaking to somebody that's not going to
01:18:47
uh give a verdict on me or, you know,
01:18:50
patronize me or tell me that, you know,
01:18:53
what you're doing is wrong. Somebody
01:18:54
that just sat there and just went, just
01:18:57
tell me how do you feel?
01:18:58
>> And that really was helpful for, you
01:19:01
know, and it took me years to realize
01:19:02
that. took me a long time to realize
01:19:04
that just being open to somebody is is a
01:19:08
is a good thing.
01:19:10
>> Oh, you're a product of your
01:19:11
environment, aren't you?
01:19:12
>> Yeah. Yeah.
01:19:12
>> So, you just want to want to fit in. If
01:19:14
no one else is doing it, you don't want
01:19:16
to be the odd one out. Um but no, it's
01:19:18
incredibly beneficial and I think
01:19:19
there's much better systems in place
01:19:20
now.
01:19:21
>> Without a doubt.
01:19:22
>> Yeah. See, um yeah, you mentioned Christ
01:19:25
Church just before. So, yeah. Um
01:19:27
February 22nd, 2011.
01:19:29
>> 11. Yeah.
01:19:30
>> Yeah. What are your recollections of
01:19:31
that day?
01:19:33
It was very surreal. It was one of those
01:19:36
where most people, we was at work at the
01:19:38
time, most people were sitting watching
01:19:40
the TV as it was coming out uh live at
01:19:43
the time with people running around and
01:19:45
you know there was a lot of chaos about
01:19:48
and but there was no reports of death.
01:19:51
Uh so we just carried on as it was and
01:19:53
we had the radio on in the background
01:19:54
and then
01:19:55
>> you were in Oakuckland at this point. We
01:19:56
were in Oakuckland
01:19:57
>> and then then throughout the day uh in
01:20:00
fact it was while I was going home there
01:20:02
was a there was a uh the radio station
01:20:05
stopped their music and it was like oh
01:20:07
there's reports of the bodies have been
01:20:10
uh recovered and there may be uh more to
01:20:14
come because rescue teams are going out
01:20:15
to to start looking and that's when I
01:20:18
thought well okay this there is going to
01:20:21
be need for a big disaster victim
01:20:23
identification uh uh team to go down
01:20:26
there. Um, I got a call as soon as I got
01:20:28
home to say, "Get prepared. Uh, you're
01:20:30
going to be one of the you're going to
01:20:32
be the first down there." And, uh,
01:20:33
that's when I got there the next very
01:20:36
early the next morning after trying to
01:20:38
get through the Oakland traffic. Uh,
01:20:39
which was a nightmare. Uh, you know, the
01:20:42
the the uh, RAF plane was leaving
01:20:44
supposedly leaving at 9:00 or 8:00 in
01:20:47
the morning and I'm stuck in traffic at
01:20:49
6:30, 7:00 in the morning trying to get
01:20:52
there. Uh, and I was never going to get
01:20:54
through. So that's when I called the,
01:20:56
you know, 111 and said, I need I need to
01:20:59
get through this traffic. Police. Yeah.
01:21:01
And we did. We got police escorts from
01:21:02
there. And that's as soon as got to the
01:21:04
police station. I couldn't even get out
01:21:05
my car. It was like everything was
01:21:07
dumped in the back of my car. And they
01:21:08
said, follow that police car.
01:21:09
>> And so their lights are uh the lights
01:21:12
and sirens are going and I'm in there in
01:21:14
my little Volvo trying to keep up with
01:21:16
them going 120ks an hour round streets
01:21:18
to get to to the place. And yeah, we so
01:21:21
we made it there to get onto the to the
01:21:23
plane straight away.
01:21:24
>> Well, thankfully that was uh 15 years
01:21:26
ago and Oakland traffic have sorted out
01:21:28
all their problems.
01:21:28
>> Of course they have. Yes, I it's so so
01:21:30
free flowing. It's a wonderful so much.
01:21:33
I look forward to it every morning.
01:21:35
>> God, it is it is 15 15 years to hard to
01:21:38
believe.
01:21:39
>> Do you know it's only seems like a week
01:21:40
ago. It's just so you know when you they
01:21:44
report it each year they have the
01:21:45
anniversary and they go okay it's year
01:21:47
13 it's year 14. I'm going no. I'd have
01:21:50
to look back,
01:21:51
>> but life's going so quick and you you
01:21:53
think really it was that long ago.
01:21:56
>> The older we get, the faster it goes.
01:21:57
>> It does as well.
01:21:58
>> What is happening? And you so you you go
01:22:00
down there and you experience your first
01:22:02
ever earthquake.
01:22:04
>> That was the most petrifying thing uh
01:22:07
that I've uh uh had in so many years.
01:22:11
It's it's it's really quite strange. you
01:22:13
you're standing there and then all of a
01:22:15
sudden the the the the floor starts to
01:22:17
feel like jelly and it's you start
01:22:20
moving about but then your body's going
01:22:21
with it and everything is just like out
01:22:23
of control and it's like you're having a
01:22:26
a fit but you can't control it and you
01:22:29
can't control the movement you can't be
01:22:31
stable and it was really strange the
01:22:33
first time and that was when we was at
01:22:35
the b you know we called it the base
01:22:36
camp but where you know everyone was at
01:22:38
the central area within Christ Church uh
01:22:41
trying to form a plan of action
01:22:44
to see, you know, how we're going to
01:22:46
>> identify these the victims that we knew
01:22:49
were going to be uh recovered.
01:22:53
>> When you're on the phone uh from
01:22:55
somewhere like that or before you leave
01:22:56
to go to a place like that, how do you
01:22:58
assure your family everything's going to
01:22:59
be okay when you don't know that for
01:23:01
sure?
01:23:02
>> Yeah. That you just I hate to say it,
01:23:05
you lie. You just say everything will be
01:23:08
fine, but we don't know. You just
01:23:10
reassure them. You have to reassure
01:23:11
them. uh the last thing you want is them
01:23:14
uh going through
01:23:16
uh trauma themselves not knowing what is
01:23:19
actually uh going to happen. Even though
01:23:22
I knew at the back of my mind, my my
01:23:24
wife, you know, she's not she's not
01:23:25
silly. She knows that I'm going to go
01:23:27
into the unknown. She knows I've been to
01:23:28
these type of incidents before. Uh and
01:23:31
she knows they they are going to be
01:23:32
terrified,
01:23:33
>> but we we're there for our, you know,
01:23:35
for the daughter as well. We're trying
01:23:36
to comfort her, say, "No, it's going to
01:23:38
be fine. And it's, you know, it's just a
01:23:39
it's a working uh it's it's a normal
01:23:42
working day for us.
01:23:43
>> She probably knows you're telling little
01:23:45
lies as well. You were already engaged
01:23:46
when you first meet her.
01:23:47
>> Yes.
01:23:52
>> That's a great a great you you could
01:23:53
have kept that one out. I was reading
01:23:55
that thinking, Tom, why did you put this
01:23:57
in here?
01:23:58
>> Which which one was that?
01:24:00
>> What was that about again?
01:24:01
>> You were you were engaged when you met
01:24:03
um you to someone else.
01:24:05
>> Yeah. Don't say that. and she had a um
01:24:07
she had a partner in
01:24:08
>> Oh, don't go back to that again. That
01:24:09
brings back memories that to us.
01:24:12
>> It's your book, mate. You don't. So,
01:24:15
okay. So, so Christ. So, you're down
01:24:16
there for a month um to get the job
01:24:18
done. Um initially, from what I can
01:24:20
gather, it's like full intact bodies and
01:24:23
then it becomes like parts.
01:24:24
>> It does. So, uh yeah, there Christ
01:24:27
Church was a completely different
01:24:29
incident to the Tai tsunami. Tyunami, we
01:24:32
had wet bodies. Christ Church, they were
01:24:33
dry. Uh so it's a completely different
01:24:36
uh uh cadaavver we're looking at. Uh so
01:24:38
the the techniques may be slightly
01:24:40
different to how we examine them. Uh but
01:24:44
uh we still treat them exactly the same
01:24:47
in every uh scenario we go to.
01:24:50
But uh the yeah Christ Church was we we
01:24:55
had the first uh the first deceased
01:24:56
coming out and uh we we go through that
01:25:00
process quite quickly at the first ones
01:25:02
because they're quite fresh. So there's
01:25:04
no real damage. They've just been f, you
01:25:06
know, been hit on the head or something
01:25:07
and they unfortunately gone down. Uh, so
01:25:10
that they they what hate to say, but
01:25:13
they're quite easy to examine.
01:25:15
>> So there's no there's no uh deformities
01:25:19
and so you can you can actually get all
01:25:21
that information relatively quickly. But
01:25:23
we know as the stages go along, the more
01:25:28
the the the more the time goes on, the
01:25:30
more that we know we're going to see
01:25:32
more atrocities from the the actual
01:25:35
victim itself.
01:25:36
>> But I don't want to dwell into them
01:25:38
because there's there's parts of the
01:25:40
book that the description of that that
01:25:42
I've left out the book anyway cuz I
01:25:43
don't think it needed to be added.
01:25:47
>> Do you invo avoid media at that point?
01:25:50
like whether it's um like I'm I'm just
01:25:52
I'm just trying to think back like um
01:25:54
current affair shows at the time like
01:25:55
Campbell Live for example.
01:25:56
>> I think every night for a couple of
01:25:58
weeks they would have had like survivors
01:26:00
or victims on talking about their loved
01:26:01
ones and
01:26:03
>> yeah do do you try and avoid media for
01:26:05
that reason like because it's just too
01:26:07
hard and it puts a human face to the
01:26:09
bodies that you're dealing with
01:26:10
>> to to watch the media to so so you
01:26:13
actually to to so you mean to to watch
01:26:14
the program itself or
01:26:16
>> Yes. or or to read the paper or
01:26:18
whatever. We we we don't we don't do
01:26:20
once we're in that zone. We we very
01:26:22
rarely actually uh read the paper or
01:26:24
watch the news. Uh we get the
01:26:26
information from the police themselves.
01:26:28
Uh because normally it's a lot more lot
01:26:30
more factual uh the information. So we
01:26:33
don't want to be downdress it or play it
01:26:36
by what we've read on the news and think
01:26:37
oh that's what we're going to get the
01:26:38
next day. We get the factual information
01:26:40
as it comes in all the time. So yeah we
01:26:42
keep we try and keep that media part out
01:26:44
of it. Uh but it was coming on from that
01:26:48
the the mortar itself that we had uh
01:26:50
that we uh did the the that's the victim
01:26:53
identification itself. We had containers
01:26:55
at the the front to to block any cameras
01:26:58
that could uh find their way in and that
01:27:01
they were the containers that had the
01:27:02
deceased people in. And then we had the
01:27:04
morttery itself which was an old uh
01:27:06
truck container station uh which got
01:27:08
converted within about 24 hours so that
01:27:10
we could get the morttery set up. But
01:27:12
there was a line. So between you you had
01:27:14
the you had the containers here, you had
01:27:17
the morttery here, and then you had the
01:27:19
line that goes through. And that was for
01:27:22
uh for people that not people, so
01:27:26
dignitaries that came along. So the the
01:27:28
the PM uh the and uh other dignitaries
01:27:31
that wanted to thank us for our work uh
01:27:34
that that were allowed to walk past that
01:27:36
they could see it uh see us actually
01:27:38
working and say thank us for everything.
01:27:40
But it was so strange. Every time they
01:27:42
came down there, there was it was like a
01:27:43
quick they they seen what we was doing
01:27:46
and it was quickly run off again because
01:27:48
it was it was the site that they were
01:27:49
seeing was overwhelming for some of
01:27:52
them.
01:27:55
>> Is it um I don't know if you've got an
01:27:57
answer for this or not, but is it easier
01:27:59
to accept death as an act of nature like
01:28:01
that versus a murder or is it no
01:28:04
different to you?
01:28:04
>> To to me it's no different as a deceased
01:28:06
person. We're trying to get the
01:28:07
information from that person as best as
01:28:09
we can. But it makes it feel
01:28:13
it just makes it feel I don't know. It's
01:28:17
a strange thing. When you've got a
01:28:19
murder scene, somebody else has
01:28:20
committed that murder scene. So there's
01:28:22
somebody else at fault. When you've got
01:28:23
a natural disaster, you've got no one to
01:28:25
blame except for nature.
01:28:27
>> So there's no blame except for nature
01:28:30
itself. And you can't ever put that
01:28:32
person in prison. You there's no ending
01:28:34
because nature's always going to carry
01:28:35
on. It's always going to cause disasters
01:28:37
from now to eternity. It's it's always
01:28:39
going to be there. Whereas crime could
01:28:41
be stopped.
01:28:42
>> Uh you know, oh no, it couldn't be
01:28:44
stopped. Crime couldn't be stopped as
01:28:45
well. But you you know the
01:28:48
the drugs and the alcohol and that goes
01:28:50
with it, you know, could could be cut
01:28:52
back from, you know, some of these
01:28:53
people. Some of them know they're doing
01:28:55
it. Some of the people around them,
01:28:56
their family members know they're doing
01:28:58
it. So yeah, that that part of it could
01:29:00
be escalated down. Nature you can never
01:29:03
mess about with it's always going to
01:29:04
happen.
01:29:06
Are there moments from Christ Church
01:29:08
that still sit with you today?
01:29:10
>> Uh,
01:29:12
yes there is. Well, sits with me. All of
01:29:15
them sit with me, but yeah, Christ
01:29:17
Church was
01:29:19
>> more to the fact that the people that we
01:29:23
were looking at were could have been the
01:29:25
people that we were walking down the
01:29:26
street with the day before.
01:29:28
>> Yeah,
01:29:28
>> that was the that was the crunch that
01:29:30
only affected me after a week with doing
01:29:32
it. And I I actually stood there and I
01:29:34
went and I was looking at one of the
01:29:36
deceased people and I went, "My
01:29:38
goodness, I I really could have been
01:29:40
talking to you uh a couple of, you know,
01:29:42
a week and a half ago." And it that was
01:29:45
the reality of it with the Christ
01:29:46
Church, knowing that the people there
01:29:50
were all either local Kiwis or Kiwi uh
01:29:54
people or, you know, people that have
01:29:56
been just uh wandering around having a
01:29:59
good time.
01:30:00
>> Hello. Sorry. Very quickly, we need your
01:30:03
keys, Tom. We just need to move the van
01:30:05
cuz Mel needs to move a car out.
01:30:08
>> Sorry. No, no, you're right.
01:30:10
>> Thank you.
01:30:11
>> You're doing great, by the way.
01:30:13
>> I felt horrible interrupting cuz the
01:30:16
conversation was so good.
01:30:18
>> Sorry.
01:30:19
>> There you go. That's all right.
01:30:20
>> Thank you. Hi. Hi. I'm JJ.
01:30:23
>> Hello, JJ. Oh, hello.
01:30:24
>> I was in my own podcast.
01:30:25
>> I was seeing you. I noticed you in
01:30:27
there. I I got the privilege of seeing
01:30:29
you there. Yeah, I was talking about a
01:30:32
very different subject to you right now.
01:30:33
>> It's okay. We're just talking about one
01:30:34
of New Zealand's worst natural
01:30:35
disasters. It's fine.
01:30:39
>> Sorry. Um, all right. Cutting my mic and
01:30:43
keep going.
01:30:45
>> There was another um awful incident that
01:30:47
happened in Christ Church. This is after
01:30:48
your retirement, the the mosque
01:30:50
shooting. Um,
01:30:52
>> when you hear about that, like from an
01:30:54
outside perspective, are you pleased you
01:30:56
retired or is there a sense of wishing
01:30:58
you were still there so you could help?
01:30:59
I actually uh what I did was I contacted
01:31:02
the police myself and stated if they
01:31:05
needed any further assistance from an
01:31:08
exe employee that was still active
01:31:10
within forensic science then I'm here to
01:31:12
to help. Uh but I've as I've said before
01:31:15
that the the disaster victim team in New
01:31:17
Zealand is second to none and they will
01:31:19
always be able to manage uh any incident
01:31:22
that's put forward in in their way. So
01:31:24
it was uh it was declined at the time.
01:31:27
Uh but I again I'm always open to
01:31:30
assist. I'm I'm actually I'm I'm part of
01:31:32
a DVI team anyway. So Blakes
01:31:34
International uh if there's a a big
01:31:37
incident around the world then uh I
01:31:39
could get called up at any time to to uh
01:31:41
be part of that team
01:31:43
>> uh of Blake's international disaster
01:31:45
team.
01:31:46
>> Oh, how good.
01:31:48
>> How good.
01:31:48
>> Yeah. I mean you got so much experience.
01:31:50
It's it's a shame if it's just like a
01:31:52
steep drop off the
01:31:54
intel goes to waste
01:31:55
>> and I'm teaching it quite often as well.
01:31:57
So I teach for teach disaster victim
01:31:59
identification uh globally. So uh do
01:32:02
online uh uh teaching
01:32:05
>> uh around the world for that
01:32:07
>> from your career. Is there a single
01:32:09
worst day on the job or a single worst
01:32:11
call out?
01:32:14
>> Uh
01:32:16
a single worst call out. Uh again, the
01:32:20
single worst call out is is
01:32:24
going to those that can can't defend
01:32:27
themselves, knowing that you're going to
01:32:29
go to a a child's death or something
01:32:31
like that. They're they're the worst
01:32:33
ones knowing that you're going to go
01:32:35
into that uh that type of crime scene uh
01:32:38
when somebody that's that vulnerable has
01:32:41
been affected
01:32:42
>> within many of them.
01:32:43
>> I've been to a few. Yes.
01:32:46
I mean, we have to realize that this
01:32:48
that New Zealand is one of the worst,
01:32:50
you know, uh, places in the world for
01:32:52
child deaths, which is unfortunate.
01:32:58
>> What about unsolved cases? How how do
01:33:00
they sit with you?
01:33:01
>> Again, we just move on straight to the
01:33:03
next one. Unsolved cases will always
01:33:05
happen and they happen more on the
01:33:07
volume type crimes. uh very rare in uh
01:33:11
murder investigations because there's a
01:33:12
lot more resources, there's a lot more
01:33:14
manpower that can go into the
01:33:16
investigating that crime. So, you know,
01:33:18
the clear up rate for murder scenes here
01:33:20
and abroad is is extremely high. Uh but
01:33:24
then you go to the more volume type
01:33:25
crime, so the robberies, the the the
01:33:27
burgies, the theft of motor vehicles,
01:33:30
they're always always lots of those
01:33:32
that's going to be unsolved. But you
01:33:34
just you you just do your job to the
01:33:36
best you can, to the best of your
01:33:37
ability. you gather the information
01:33:38
you've got because it could be used in
01:33:40
the future.
01:33:41
>> And we we you do get that. There's a lot
01:33:43
of people out there that go to and
01:33:44
commit these crimes that have not got a
01:33:46
DNA sample, that have not got
01:33:48
fingerprints uh on the record, and they
01:33:50
just carry on doing it thinking that
01:33:52
they're, you know, that they're never
01:33:53
going to be caught and then one day they
01:33:55
will be caught
01:33:56
>> and we can look back at all of those
01:33:58
crimes that they've done before from
01:33:59
some of the evidence that we've
01:34:00
collected and then we can just pile on a
01:34:03
lot more uh charges to that person from
01:34:05
all these unrelsolved
01:34:08
crimes.
01:34:08
>> Yeah. Oh, you Yeah, you raised a good
01:34:10
point. Like you think about the DNA um
01:34:12
developments and changes and
01:34:13
advancements in your career. Like when
01:34:15
you first started, you probably needed
01:34:16
like a liter of someone's saliva.
01:34:18
>> It was really different. It was really
01:34:21
diff different since uh the uh the early
01:34:24
80s before Alec Jeff did the DNA
01:34:28
fingerprinting. We used to have to get a
01:34:31
great big piece of blood just to uh
01:34:33
group it. So the [ __ ] it uh which has
01:34:36
changed so much now. M uh because today
01:34:40
we could actually get there called a DNA
01:34:42
wand. Uh and you could actually walk
01:34:44
around in this room and go back out
01:34:47
again and then your that DNA could be
01:34:50
you could pick up the DNA of people that
01:34:52
have been in this room previously.
01:34:53
>> Unbelievable.
01:34:54
>> Just by walking around with that DNA
01:34:56
wand.
01:34:56
>> Wow.
01:34:57
>> And that is that that is the how
01:34:58
advanced it's gone from just 40 years.
01:35:02
>> It's just the development and it's gone
01:35:04
so much that we we have to be careful
01:35:06
with it. We have to be careful with uh
01:35:08
anything that's advanced and that's
01:35:10
sensitive because what do we have behind
01:35:12
us? An air conditioner.
01:35:13
>> So that could have been introduced from
01:35:15
the outside. So if we get an
01:35:16
identification from a something like
01:35:18
that, then we have to be careful with
01:35:21
how we approach it on the investigating
01:35:23
side because it is that sensitive
01:35:25
because it's not an actual part of it's
01:35:27
not a piece of blood that's physically
01:35:29
in within the crime scene.
01:35:31
>> Crimes are always going to happen, but
01:35:32
do you think it'll get to the point
01:35:33
where it's going to be just impossible
01:35:34
to get away with the crime?
01:35:37
No, I don't think so.
01:35:39
>> Yeah, somebody someone asked me that the
01:35:42
other day. Will AI take over and will
01:35:44
they actually commit, you know, will
01:35:46
they actually find all the corporates in
01:35:47
that? It'll never happen. Uh within the
01:35:51
the like of the like I say within the
01:35:53
serious crime scenes with the
01:35:55
advancement of technology, the the the
01:35:57
you've got less chance of getting away
01:35:59
with it. But again, you've got uh with
01:36:02
the the lesser crimes, there's still the
01:36:04
manpower and the resources that you
01:36:07
can't put everything in to it. If we
01:36:09
did, if we treated everyone every scene
01:36:11
like a murder scene,
01:36:12
>> then yeah, we there would be a lot more
01:36:14
people that would be behind bars or a
01:36:16
lot people more caught. But the reality
01:36:18
is it was it's never going to happen
01:36:20
because you would have such a you know a
01:36:24
long list of people that you would never
01:36:26
get to see
01:36:28
>> when you're it's maybe this is just me
01:36:30
but you I remember the first time my
01:36:32
house got burgled and it was like the
01:36:34
cops were like oh yeah we we send
01:36:35
someone over in a couple of days and
01:36:37
they dusted for some prints and I was
01:36:38
like can you believe it they took two
01:36:39
days I suppose every victim of crime
01:36:41
wants whether it's a car breakin or
01:36:44
whatever you want it to be treated like
01:36:45
a
01:36:46
>> but the thing is we don't want to be
01:36:47
there 2 days later.
01:36:48
>> But that's the reality of it, you know.
01:36:50
And the the the more we leave that crime
01:36:52
scene
01:36:53
>> uh vacant without actually being
01:36:55
examined, the less we're going to
01:36:57
retrieve from it because the own the the
01:36:59
householder wants to clean up. They're
01:37:01
going to put things back to normal. Uh
01:37:03
so it's it's, you know, it's down to the
01:37:05
the the the responding officer first to
01:37:07
try and retrieve some of those items to
01:37:10
to preserve them.
01:37:12
How did um decades of exposure to death
01:37:15
change you as a like a husband or a dad
01:37:17
if at all?
01:37:19
>> It's not changed me as a it's made me
01:37:21
come become more resilient
01:37:23
>> and uh I have a lot more empathy as well
01:37:26
uh as a person uh towards other people.
01:37:30
Uh seeing the worst again what people
01:37:34
can do to other people uh does change
01:37:36
your concept of life. you take every day
01:37:38
as as you can uh as much as you can and
01:37:42
live it as much as you can as well with
01:37:43
your family.
01:37:46
>> Yeah. I suppose it crystallizes just how
01:37:47
precious life is and how quickly it can
01:37:49
be
01:37:49
>> and it could be taken away in an
01:37:51
instant. You know, you don't one minute
01:37:53
you could be just walking down the
01:37:54
street and the next minute a bus is
01:37:55
straight over you.
01:37:56
>> Yeah.
01:37:56
>> It's just simple as that. Life is so so
01:37:59
easily taken away from us. M
01:38:01
>> I don't know if you'll have an answer
01:38:02
for this one, but um and innocent
01:38:04
civilians who discover a a a gruesome
01:38:06
crime scene, how do they recover?
01:38:10
>> Yeah, George, you uh you say that
01:38:13
because my wife is uh not she's not seen
01:38:16
a crime scene, but it was a serious
01:38:18
accident where uh the person was caught
01:38:21
under the the tractor uh that had gone
01:38:24
back on them. not a tractor, it was a
01:38:25
big loading truck and it the the the
01:38:28
brakes failed and it went over the
01:38:29
person and it squashed them completely
01:38:31
and she was one of the first people that
01:38:32
actually seen that and went down there
01:38:35
and uh yeah, so anyone that can see that
01:38:38
sort of graphic injuries to anybody
01:38:40
whether it's an accident or by harm
01:38:44
harmful act uh it's going to affect them
01:38:46
and it affects people differently. Yeah,
01:38:48
>> it it all depends uh you know uh what
01:38:51
they're going through at that time
01:38:53
whether it's emotional or physical. Uh
01:38:56
it can affect pe people differently. We
01:38:58
we know that each one of us are all
01:38:59
different. Uh some people will just
01:39:01
brush it off. You know some people are
01:39:04
just you know quite cold and hard. Some
01:39:07
people are quite sensitive and they they
01:39:09
they'll take it on board and they
01:39:10
they'll take them days and weeks.
01:39:12
Sometimes never get over it. Sometimes
01:39:14
they'll wake up or they'll have that
01:39:16
vivid vivid uh image into their etched
01:39:20
into their brain that they can't get rid
01:39:21
of.
01:39:24
>> Yeah. Some of the stuff that we've
01:39:25
talked about just in this episode like
01:39:27
the uh the decapitated head for example
01:39:29
like I I think if I saw something like
01:39:32
that I think it would change me as a
01:39:33
person.
01:39:34
>> Yes. It just just as a person myself it
01:39:38
just changed me to look on the uh the
01:39:43
good that life has. Mhm.
01:39:44
>> Uh even though I have been through my
01:39:46
ups and downs, you know, and the ups and
01:39:49
downs, you know,
01:39:52
one you know it most of the time it's
01:39:55
you know be have a good optimistic
01:39:57
outlook on life
01:39:58
>> but yeah over over a period of time some
01:40:00
things can dwell upon you and it has you
01:40:02
know and it's not just about the crime
01:40:04
scenes I've been to. It could be
01:40:06
something that uh you know within
01:40:09
personal uh things or work and it all
01:40:12
comes to to together and it's just that
01:40:15
point where you know that there's
01:40:16
something not right within yourself.
01:40:20
>> Yeah. How how did that look for you?
01:40:22
You've sort of um touched upon this a
01:40:24
couple of times in the chat so far about
01:40:26
your own uh mental health struggles.
01:40:28
>> Yeah.
01:40:28
>> Yeah. How did that look? So uh I went
01:40:31
through uh a bout of uh depression about
01:40:34
10 years ago and it was I wouldn't say
01:40:36
severe but it was enough to make me feel
01:40:38
that I wasn't comfortable with myself. I
01:40:42
I the outlook uh wasn't as positive as I
01:40:45
normally was. I felt I felt
01:40:48
disillusioned with everything. I felt
01:40:50
disillusioned with life itself. I I
01:40:52
didn't I didn't I didn't feel like I
01:40:55
didn't want to wake up at times. It was
01:40:58
it was really strange. You know, I do I
01:40:59
felt uncomfortable feeling that way. I
01:41:02
felt uncomfortable
01:41:04
uh not knowing what tomorrow is going to
01:41:06
bring.
01:41:07
>> And uh you know, and it was just a
01:41:11
really strange horrible feeling. And
01:41:13
that's when I did approach Alli and
01:41:15
said, "I'm not this is this isn't not
01:41:17
me." And it wasn't it wasn't an
01:41:19
overnight. It wasn't just a click. It
01:41:20
was just over a period of weeks
01:41:22
>> and it creeps up slowly and slowly. you
01:41:24
don't realize at the beginning and then
01:41:26
until you start, you know, some
01:41:28
something will trigger it and you get
01:41:31
very emotional or you you start having a
01:41:34
go at somebody that you wouldn't do
01:41:35
before
01:41:36
>> and it's, you know, you start thinking,
01:41:38
"Wow, why have I told my daughter off
01:41:41
like that? Why have I just shouted at my
01:41:42
daughter and I'd never do that again
01:41:44
before?" Or you start, you know, you
01:41:47
storm out or you smash something on the
01:41:48
floor and I'm thinking that's not me.
01:41:51
that is somebody else and I don't like
01:41:53
being that person.
01:41:54
>> And that's when I I went to the the to
01:41:56
the the GP and uh yeah he he gave me
01:42:01
some uh what we call magic medication to
01:42:04
to happy pills.
01:42:06
>> Happy pills to to make me resolve myself
01:42:08
and that's how it was for a few I'd say
01:42:11
six months.
01:42:12
>> Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I'm
01:42:14
exactly the same. I can tell if my
01:42:16
mental health isn't isn't where it
01:42:17
should be by say if someone cuts me off
01:42:19
in traffic. Yeah. If my mental health is
01:42:21
where it should be, I can just look in
01:42:22
the rear view and go, "Fuck, that
01:42:23
person's going through some [ __ ] and
01:42:25
laugh and get on with my day." If my
01:42:27
mental health personally isn't where it
01:42:28
should be, that's when I'm like,
01:42:30
>> "What the [ __ ] are they tooting at?" You
01:42:32
know, I I'll get angry and agitated
01:42:34
about it.
01:42:35
>> Yeah, that's just how I felt. Getting
01:42:37
very very agitated and uh
01:42:39
>> about small things.
01:42:40
>> It felt out of control. That was the
01:42:42
main thing. Feeling out of control of
01:42:43
myself uh when I was always fully in
01:42:45
control. uh which was uh yeah that just
01:42:49
didn't feel comfortable with me.
01:42:51
>> This is uh about 10 years ago you say.
01:42:52
Is this about when you left the police?
01:42:54
>> No, it was just be it was about uh I
01:42:57
would say about a year and a half to two
01:42:59
years before the police.
01:43:00
>> Okay.
01:43:01
>> Uh so I started to feel uh feeling not
01:43:03
feeling myself then I came right uh I
01:43:06
stayed with the police for another year
01:43:08
a year and then I thought well 30 years
01:43:10
I've seen my part. I just wanted to to
01:43:13
change my direction and I didn't want to
01:43:15
because there was a lots of things was
01:43:18
you know at that period was happening
01:43:20
there was a lot of work commitments
01:43:21
there was a lot of personal life
01:43:23
commitments and uh I just felt I don't
01:43:25
want to go through that again and I
01:43:26
needed a different change in career
01:43:28
career path uh I don't like I say I did
01:43:31
my 30 years but I still love forensic
01:43:32
science and I just wanted to try
01:43:34
something else
01:43:36
>> jeez and boy you had a career pivot um
01:43:39
motellia in Tatanaki
01:43:40
>> oh I hate I hated it. I couldn't stand
01:43:43
it.
01:43:44
>> Yeah. Worst worst decision I'd ever made
01:43:47
>> after some of the guests left and it
01:43:49
looked like a crime scene.
01:43:50
>> Oh, that's all I treated it as. It was
01:43:51
really horrible. It was a Yeah. My my
01:43:54
wife loved it. But I went into there and
01:43:56
I was still treating them as a crime
01:43:58
scene. You know, there was uh you know,
01:44:00
[ __ ] on the on the on the bedding and I
01:44:02
was examining it. There was blood in the
01:44:04
toilet area and I was thinking, "How did
01:44:06
it get there? Let me look at the blood
01:44:07
spatter. Where did it come from? Oh
01:44:09
yeah, it must have been over there." And
01:44:10
I was looking at I even entered the
01:44:12
septic tank because we was uh rural and
01:44:15
I was looking for things in the septic
01:44:17
tank that shouldn't have been there and
01:44:19
trying to describe to myself how did
01:44:21
they get there and what was the reason
01:44:22
for it and where did they come from and
01:44:24
how could I put it back to that person.
01:44:26
It was so strange and I treated it all
01:44:28
as a crime scene. I just thought no I
01:44:29
can't do this anymore. I just don't like
01:44:31
it.
01:44:32
>> Was what Yeah. What was it? Was it too
01:44:34
too slower pace of life after the 30
01:44:37
years before that? Yeah. I still had
01:44:39
that because I was consulting uh in
01:44:41
forensic science. Uh that was uh just
01:44:44
starting it took it took few uh you know
01:44:47
a good year for people to start
01:44:49
recognizing what I was doing and I just
01:44:52
wanted to carry on with that. I had this
01:44:54
urge inside me that I for what I've seen
01:44:57
and what I've been through for the last
01:44:59
30 years. I want to teach others
01:45:03
uh you know the background of you know
01:45:07
what I've been doing and to teach them
01:45:09
forensic science. I I had this burning
01:45:11
ambition because I was teaching in the
01:45:12
police as well the the you know junior
01:45:14
staff members and junior police officers
01:45:16
uh forensic science. Uh I just wanted to
01:45:19
do that to the public as well. And
01:45:21
that's when I it was like Alec Jeff. I
01:45:23
had that eureka idea of forming forensic
01:45:26
insight.
01:45:27
>> Yeah.
01:45:28
>> Which is what you're doing now.
01:45:29
>> It is. Yes.
01:45:30
>> So we we we deal with uh three avenues
01:45:33
uh in forensics. Uh we do forensic
01:45:36
science training for uh going around
01:45:38
schools. Uh we also do forensic
01:45:40
consultation for the courts of New
01:45:42
Zealand. for defense uh barristers to to
01:45:45
ensure that everything's
01:45:48
you know all the processes and protocols
01:45:49
are complete from uh the police side or
01:45:52
anyone that's given evidence from the
01:45:54
prosecutor
01:45:55
>> and also we take fingerprints for
01:45:57
immigration for uh for police clearance
01:45:59
checks around the world which has become
01:46:01
really successful for us.
01:46:04
>> Does it does that give you enough um
01:46:05
excitement? Does it scratch the itch?
01:46:08
I always have that urge and I still do
01:46:12
to this day that I uh I always have this
01:46:14
urge that I want to go back to a crime
01:46:16
scene examination and I've had the
01:46:18
opportunity a couple of times to to go
01:46:20
back uh uh into uh uh crime scene
01:46:24
examination whether it's here or
01:46:26
Australia but there's just something
01:46:28
saying no do I really want to go through
01:46:30
all of that again I've done like I say
01:46:32
30 years of that do I really want to put
01:46:34
my mind set trying to set my mind again
01:46:37
from you know dealing with life people
01:46:40
the students and you know the people out
01:46:43
there
01:46:43
>> or do I want to go back to death again
01:46:45
so the live people always win
01:46:48
>> and that's why I said that you know I've
01:46:50
had that urge to go back like I say with
01:46:52
the the mosque shooting I put my name
01:46:54
forward because uh you know I'd love to
01:46:57
assist them at that to give them my
01:46:59
experience and expertise
01:47:01
>> uh but yeah just I don't think it'll
01:47:03
ever happen again.
01:47:04
>> N don't do it. Look, look, the man
01:47:06
sitting in front of me today, he looks
01:47:07
happy, healthy, relaxed. He's wearing a
01:47:09
Hawaiian shirt for God's sake. Don't do
01:47:11
it to yourself. This is your time in the
01:47:14
sun. Um, yeah. So, you dealt with um
01:47:18
your own mental health struggles and
01:47:19
then um you address this in the book and
01:47:22
uh May 2022, you lost a nephew uh to
01:47:25
suicide.
01:47:26
>> Yes.
01:47:27
>> Is there any way your career could
01:47:29
prepare you for something like this?
01:47:30
>> Never. It was one of the most traumatic
01:47:33
events of my life. It was that. Sorry, I
01:47:35
get emotional one day.
01:47:36
>> Yeah.
01:47:37
>> Uh,
01:47:42
the phone call,
01:47:45
sorry. The phone call from my brother
01:47:48
was
01:47:50
the worst I've ever had. Him just
01:47:53
telling me that, you know, my nephew
01:47:56
that I'd seen, it was only a year before
01:47:59
>> cuz I, you know, I don't go over there
01:48:01
that often. and to say, "Tom, Tommy's
01:48:04
gone." And I'm say, "Who's gone?" "He's
01:48:06
gone." "My son, he's gone."
01:48:09
And I said, "What are you talking about?
01:48:11
Is he left again or is he gone to do
01:48:13
something silly?" "No, no, he's dead."
01:48:15
And I say, "Why? Why is he what? What?
01:48:17
What do you mean he's dead? Stop taking
01:48:18
a piss. He's not dead." And then he just
01:48:20
breaks down. He says, you know, he he's
01:48:22
taken his own life. And I found him.
01:48:26
And I just didn't know what to do.
01:48:28
So what all big brothers do, I just went
01:48:31
uh back to England and just to be with
01:48:34
him. But the worst part was well, I
01:48:37
wouldn't say the worst part, he just my
01:48:39
brother was
01:48:41
still couldn't fathom out how
01:48:44
uh how he died, but even worse, whether
01:48:47
he'd actually gone through any pain uh
01:48:50
through his death. and he was kept
01:48:53
insisting that I I I I needed to go to
01:48:56
the house to see exactly where he died
01:48:59
uh because everything was still there
01:49:00
because I'd uh that just taken the the
01:49:02
deceased away because it was uh my
01:49:05
nephew's house. It was all left in situ.
01:49:07
Nobody went back in it afterwards.
01:49:09
>> Oh, so he wanted you then um to to
01:49:11
inspect the house not as an uncle but as
01:49:13
a forensic strike. Okay. Okay.
01:49:14
>> So, as a as a brother and as a forensic
01:49:17
chap to reassess the crime scene to see
01:49:20
exactly if uh he had gone through any
01:49:22
pain.
01:49:23
>> And that was the worst crime scene I've
01:49:25
ever ever attended. And it wasn't a
01:49:27
crime scene, but it was a you know, it
01:49:29
was a it was going in there and seeing
01:49:32
my brother break down and put his arms
01:49:35
around me when I said he would have gone
01:49:38
quickly.
01:49:39
>> Just that. But just just see my brother
01:49:43
going through that mental breakdown, you
01:49:45
know, and he's still obviously he's not,
01:49:47
but he's still going through really
01:49:49
traumatic events now because it was his
01:49:51
only son.
01:49:52
>> I don't know how you can never recover
01:49:54
from that.
01:49:54
>> You can't
01:49:55
>> you never recover, you know, until it
01:49:57
goes and there's a lot of people out
01:49:59
there that it's, you know, it's affected
01:50:02
gone through the same thing again. But
01:50:04
unless it goes through your own family
01:50:06
and you've personally been there to
01:50:07
witness it,
01:50:09
>> it's nothing I would ever ever wish on
01:50:11
any other person in this world.
01:50:13
>> It is so traumatic and so traumatizing
01:50:16
to go through that. And I'm sorry I got
01:50:18
emotional. That's one of the first times
01:50:20
I've uh
01:50:21
>> ever got emotional with it.
01:50:22
>> It shows you care.
01:50:25
>> Who was Joseph?
01:50:28
>> He was a kind, gentle soul, which they
01:50:31
normally always are, aren't they? Yeah.
01:50:33
>> Uh he was the person that you could
01:50:36
always rely on to be there for a laugh,
01:50:39
to be there as a person, but he
01:50:41
obviously had his own demons. He
01:50:43
couldn't he didn't he didn't like who he
01:50:44
was, but he liked everyone else to be
01:50:47
with him and he liked to tell them that
01:50:48
they were good and, you know, solve
01:50:50
their problems, but he couldn't solve
01:50:51
his own problems. He was a young chap in
01:50:53
a horrible world at the time for him. Uh
01:50:56
but he was just a wonderful, wonderful
01:50:59
chap and I had so much time for him and
01:51:01
that's why it was so devastating.
01:51:03
>> How old was he?
01:51:04
>> He was uh 27
01:51:07
years old.
01:51:10
>> So yeah, it wasn't he wasn't a young
01:51:12
chap, but he wasn't an old chap.
01:51:13
>> Uh but my my brother and him uh were so
01:51:18
close.
01:51:18
>> Yeah.
01:51:19
>> And that my brother blamed himself. My
01:51:21
brother blamed himself because he said
01:51:23
he got a call because he's he was been
01:51:26
dep he was depressed for a good year.
01:51:29
>> Yeah.
01:51:29
>> Uh and my brother got a call the night
01:51:31
before and he said and he he'd had many
01:51:33
of these calls and he said, "Dad, I'm
01:51:35
not well. I'm going to I don't think I'm
01:51:37
going to make it tonight." And my dad So
01:51:39
my brother just went, "Yeah, yeah,
01:51:41
you'll be fine. You'll be fine."
01:51:44
And that's what that that was my
01:51:45
brother's biggest regret was he didn't
01:51:47
actually go to him that night time.
01:51:49
>> And he still says it to this day that he
01:51:51
could have saved him if he'd have gone
01:51:53
there. And I keep saying to him, "No,
01:51:55
it's just it's if it wouldn't have been
01:51:56
that night, it could have been another."
01:51:58
But he still takes that on board. That's
01:51:59
still on his shoulders that he didn't go
01:52:02
round to him that night time.
01:52:03
>> Oh, it's unfair to live with that level
01:52:06
of guilt.
01:52:06
>> Yeah. And then he, you know, they he
01:52:08
called him the next day because he
01:52:10
actually did feel bad. And then that's
01:52:12
when he kicked the door in and went
01:52:13
upstairs and then found him himself.
01:52:18
>> How do you sleep at night?
01:52:21
>> Uh
01:52:24
on and off some some a lot most of the
01:52:27
time quite soundly.
01:52:29
Uh but you do have your bad days, you do
01:52:31
have your good days, but most of the
01:52:32
time I I see I sleep quite soundly. Like
01:52:34
I said touched on before, some some
01:52:36
sometimes when you've been to a really
01:52:37
vivid uh horrible uh uh murder scene,
01:52:41
you that that will be the last image you
01:52:43
actually go to sleep with, but I'm one
01:52:45
of these people that can sleep quite
01:52:47
soundly. Uh yeah, I don't have any
01:52:50
serious problems myself doing that way.
01:52:52
>> Do you have any regrets?
01:52:54
>> No.
01:52:54
>> No,
01:52:54
>> never have any regrets. The only regret
01:52:57
I uh ever have is that uh I can't do it
01:53:01
forever.
01:53:03
Oh, that's a great attitude. What does
01:53:05
what does a good life or a good day look
01:53:07
for you right now?
01:53:08
>> A good day for me right now is uh being
01:53:12
able to go to work without any hassle
01:53:15
from uh outside uh influences. So, it's
01:53:19
like a roller coaster ride at the
01:53:20
moment. You know, you have your good
01:53:21
days and your bad days.
01:53:22
For me, going to uh uh work uh doing a
01:53:27
good day's job and making somebody uh
01:53:29
happy because even taking someone's
01:53:31
fingerprints, it's quite traumatic for
01:53:33
them because they're going through a
01:53:34
traumatic part. We just try and make
01:53:36
that as easy as possible. And when you
01:53:37
see the smile on their face and they
01:53:40
say, "Wow, that was really cool of you."
01:53:41
Thank you so much and assisted them
01:53:43
getting their clearance check for
01:53:44
immigration.
01:53:45
>> Just seeing that smile smile on their
01:53:46
face is great for me.
01:53:48
>> Yeah.
01:53:49
If everything stopped tomorrow, what
01:53:51
would you be most grateful for?
01:53:53
>> Alli and my wife uh my daughter.
01:53:56
>> They're the two rocks in the whole of my
01:53:58
life. Without them, I'm nothing.
01:54:06
>> I think that's a great place to end it.
01:54:08
>> Yeah, it's touching.
01:54:10
>> Thank you.
01:54:11
>> Um, hey, the book is great.
01:54:13
>> It's It won't be for everyone.
01:54:15
>> No, it won't be for everyone. That's the
01:54:16
thing. Uh, it's not it's not for the
01:54:18
faint-hearted, but for those that are
01:54:20
intrigued in forensic science and seeing
01:54:22
how it's actually really used within a
01:54:25
crime scene. Forget the forget the the
01:54:27
the horror and the gore that goes with
01:54:29
it. Look at how we actually change uh or
01:54:34
how we actually uh assist with the
01:54:37
investigation part.
01:54:38
>> And there's some funny parts in there as
01:54:40
well.
01:54:40
>> Yeah. Lots of lots of bleak dark humor.
01:54:43
>> Yes. Lots of bleak dark humor.
01:54:44
>> I'm just pleased. Oh, you're in your 50s
01:54:45
as well. You you remember this. I'm just
01:54:47
pleased it's not a a scratch and sniff
01:54:49
book.
01:54:49
>> Oh my goodness. When they first when
01:54:51
they came out, it was like you still get
01:54:54
them sometimes. You going to you go into
01:54:55
the warehouse and you can see them on
01:54:56
there. You go, "Oh my, if id have put
01:54:58
some of those on that pages, I would
01:55:00
have loved to have put the smell of
01:55:02
death on one of those pages. That would
01:55:04
have been perfect.
01:55:05
>> Smells like lightly cooked vomit and
01:55:07
diarrhea."
01:55:08
>> Hey, uh Tom Thomas Coyle, thank you so
01:55:11
much for being a guest on my podcast.
01:55:13
>> Thank you so much for inviting me. It's
01:55:14
been a real pleasure. Thank you.
