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so gram Henry Ted welcome to my podcast pleasure good to be here um first of all
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um I apologize for the barage of messages to try and get you to do it we've been going back and forth for a
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very long time oh 6 months perhaps no I was always going to do it it was just a matter of fitting
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it yeah you so you're 70 77 now 78 is that is that is that important I'm
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78 actually yeah well no it's um I think it's um I'm probably older than you do
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marginally well there's some mornings I probably feel older than you I I I find
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it inspiring because you you're still so busy like I messaged you earlier in the
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year and you said I can't do it just yet cuz me and my wife are going on a trip
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to the Antarctica um a couple of weeks ago messaged again you're in Canada you're all over the
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place yeah we we've had a had a busy year it's not we're not that busy most
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years but just how happens at 24 seems a busy year so I've been to Europe Canada
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Antarctica going to South Africa for the all black 2 test doing a safari in between couple of trips to Fiji one with
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a family one to Aly Williams's wedding oh you are going to that I had um I had
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his fiance an a mbre um in the podcast the other day and I I asked her about the wedding guest list I said who's
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going that I Know Dan Richie and she she said none of my none of my business oh now I've got I've and I I do apologize I
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W say anymore well that's going to be good yes I'm looking forward to it yeah
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hey um I so appreciate you being here I've done so much um research it's hard
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to cram like a an amazing 78 years of life um into a podcast but yeah we'll do
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our best to cover some of the um some of the I suppose greatest hats and greatest
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shits of your life unfortun so first of all um I found this on the back of your book it's like
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you're coaching stat sheet how how good are you at recalling what you've done
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and your records and percentages and stuff I can't remember those but um I look back with a lot of gratitude yeah
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loved it very fortunate to go through that experience well let's try a couple
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of these just for a laugh all blacks what was your what was your success record I know that
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one I think it was about 87.5 oh 85 calm down 85.7 was it and you book at just his 85 okay um British
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Lions ah we lost to Australia 2-1 the test Series in 201 in fact it changed my life but that
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was another story yeah your success record there was 70% which on paper doesn't look too bad but it would
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scarred you deeply didn't it I just had too much on Dom and I I hit the wall
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actually and that's why I resigned from Welsh rugby and and came back to New
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Zealand so I got depression M uh self assessment of course I didn't go to a to
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a doctor or any but I just I just lost all desire or energy to do the job and I was contracted to Wales for 5 years and
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I've been through three and a half years of that contract so I was meant to go on
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to the 2003 Rugby World Cup in Australia but um I just couldn't couldn't do the
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job I'd hit the wall uh got overloaded didn't think I would thought I was
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bulletproof and uh I wasn't so that was a great learning experience yeah I'd
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love to get into that and some greater detail later on if you'd be prepared to
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um yeah yeah I've heard you talk about this before and um it's so good to hear
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um your guys in particular of a certain age talking about this stuff openly I've
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had John Hart do have you do you know Hardy very well I know Hardy pretty well yeah I've had him on the podcast and
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there's a lot of parallels between what you went through and what he went through after 199 9 in the World Cup um
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so we'll get into that a bit later um first of all let's go right back to the
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young gram Henry so good cricketer good rugby player bit of a smartass yeah that's a good summary is
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it you got caned on your last day of school hell are we going to go right back there just briefly um yeah I I I
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thought that was was a token really ridiculous really looking back yeah it was a master that haded in for you right
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that was looking for I was a music Master yeah I'd been playing Cricket for Christ Jude boys vers Oran grammar
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school so I hadn't hand him a text back textbooks back to the textbook shop so I
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was doing that and I was meant to be an assembly apparently so that's why I got Kane
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ridiculous isn't it we're talking about 1964 when I refused to came from the
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deputy Headmaster so I sent to the Headmaster of Christ Church boys and he gave me a couple of tokens on the bum
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but um the staff got very upset about that um at the Injustice at the Injustice but you know it was just one
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of those things that happened um I thought it was an injustice it wasn't a biggy you got into
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the education system yourself so I'm sure you got payback on a lot of there's
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probably a lot of like middle-aged men in the country that have got the honor of being caned by Graham Henry
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would be fa to say I think it hurt me more than that hurt them that's what my dad used to say
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before he gave me the belt oh and I was like no it doesn't trust me it's hurting
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me the more the most well it was a a quick sharp punishment and you got to got on so it had its value yeah at the
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time but I can understand why it's been abolished there's been a lot more
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communication between the school and the parents now M which I guess is positive
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yeah so tell us about um young rayan Cochran rayan Cochran she she didn't like in the beginning right and you wore
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her down yeah she thought I was a bit of a a prick really what a prick is that is
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that allowed to be on the podcast anything go so we were in the same class at physical education School in the
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needen both Christ Church people didn't know each other um got together in the third year
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of three so the first two years she avoided me as I said I think she thought I was a bit of a
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twit um but once she got to know me thank goodness she uh bent and uh we got married very young ridiculous 23 and 21
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1973 we're still together no 1970 D oh really yeah you got that wrong but that's okay um I'm going edit that out
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you can't be right all the time and and um so we've been married for 54 years
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best best selection I've ever made never dropped her ones we're still married she's still my
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current wife yeah yeah and I um I actually I bumped into you guys in um wcky Island maybe a couple of months ago
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you two you're both not great for your actually I was going to say for your age
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but for any age you both walk briskly through the car park um and you look you look really happy like you know I think
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you were holding hands at the time is that right goodness me yeah must must been an unusual situation but no no as I
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say d most most important selection of her life she's been fantastic H she knows rugby that's not
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why I married her but she came from a rugby family two brothers and father all played representative rugby two brothers
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one played for New Zealand 20s one was an old black trialist U so she knew the game which was a hell of an advantage
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also a very good Sportsman Sports person sportswoman in her own right uh coached
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the Welsh Network team yeah coached ockland New Zealand silver Fern selector um so you know that
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understanding of of sport at a high level and what was required was a real benefit and a real help you didn't she
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initially um this might be just an urban Legion but didn't she sort of initially
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select Conrad Smith oh that's a good story yes well I came home one night after being I think in denan and Conrad
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was playing for the Hurricanes probably in Wellington against somebody else so I
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hadn't seen the game and I said how would the game go hurricans playing whoever she said you that Conrad Smith's
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not a bad player well not you too Rowan so BJ laor God bless him Miss de uh had been talking about Conrad and we'd all
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been talking about Conrad she said he's a very intelligent player oh okay so um in the Finish we
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pit Conrad but I always tell the story that Conrad got bit you know he got overconfident because he knew I my
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marriage was over I ever dropped him so uh that was just a story but he was a fabulous all black yeah he was but
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you know she um she knew rugby and could could see good players on the field and
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understood the game you you must have um tested her at times over the years um like very early on you're in Christ
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Church you just bought a house which was no mean feet at the time and then um straight away like you upticks and moved
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to Oakland did you Did you sort of discuss that with her or you looking at me confused this was in your book or do
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you just go home one day and say hey I've got this job we're going to Oakland yeah well you've done your
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homework G and I'm not confused but I'm just surprised at the question yeah I probably didn't handle
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it very well you know it was early time in the marriage and rayan's had never lived in her own house
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parents didn't own their own house and so it was really big deal for her big
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deal for both of us and um I got a ring from John Graham who was the principal of walk and gramar school and he taught
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me as a kid at Christ Church boys and he also coached me at High Bol Boys Rugby Club in Christ Church and all black in
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his own right too right oh yeah all black Captain he was he was a very special person to me very fine teacher
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great mentor I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you if it hadn't been for him
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so he rang me he's just started as principal of of walk grammar school 1973 it was said there's a job here Ted do
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you want it I could have bitten his arm off because I was I was wavid at the time hadn't really said any Roots down
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and was making any progress say yes I'll take yes I'll be there and I thought oh
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hell new house new wife better discuss that so before I made the decision before I discuss it with the most
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important person uh so it wasn't easy uh CU leaving Christ Church where we're born
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and bread both of us U where our parents were and uh to come up here but best decision I ever made you you learned
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your lesson so years decades down the track when it's some time to leave New
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Zealand and go to Wales you do run it past rayn first you're a difficult man with asking
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difficult questions I'm sure I did um we have to get ran in for a chat to get
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here yeah yeah well it probably be different from what I'm saying but I got this invitation to go to Wales so she
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knew about the invitation um and when we decid when I decided to go I think I'm sure we had
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discussed it but I think the term was 5 years away from New Zealand was quite a a hurdle but she's always been re always
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been very supportive so I've been been extremely lucky yeah yeah we'll get into
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the the Wales chapter later on as well there's there's just so much of your
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story to get through like it's been such a such a rich Mosaic of a life why oh
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you look worried now like how long is this going to take yeah is that a question or a
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statement okay so um but you did well out of the house in Christ ch right like you bought it for something like $10,000
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and doubled your money yeah I think we bought it in pounds days was it right yeah it would have been pounds yeah yeah
00:12:53
uh like over what sort of span of time did you dou double your money like over a course of a year or a couple of years
00:12:58
18 months I think wow it's a long time ago D before you were born yeah well I
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was born in 73 so about that time yeah so now it's we wild away but I think we
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doubled our money in two years yeah incredible yeah so we went from 10 to 20 yeah well that would ease the pain for
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rayan of moving to ockland uh money's not important house was um and you know it's a big big step
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yeah Christ chur people going to walk not the right thing right really was it uh well I think that's probably part of
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it yeah um we have loved it it's been very good to you too I so so yes so you
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come to Oakland um this is when you get in the teaching system this is sort of when you're your um coaching career
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starts um so your hostel Master you're dealing with the likes of say like Grant
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when did you first meet Grand Fox how old was he like 13 yeah he was a hostile boy yeah
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uh came from Patu originally and then from his parents bought a motel in Tanga got to know his parents well but he was
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I would say was 1975 76 doesn't matter um and some and he was a hostile boy and somebody said
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to me you want to go and see this little blonde kid kicking goals down the bottom
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field at walk in grammar school coming to my office so I wanted the down to the bottom field and he was foxy kicking
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goals from the sideline as I 13y old that looks pretty good yeah who else Martin Crow he was a good rugby player
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right oh there was I coached the or grammar school side with a guy named Derek stubs for three years and then I
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coached by myself and um there was seven All Blacks during that time coach the first 11 for
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a while and Martin Crow and Mark great batch were in that team Jeff Crow wow um All Blacks John Drake Nikki Allen
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obviously Foxy the wet and brothers Gary and Allen uh two hookers John buckin and
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John Mills I think that's seven um so like they were like I learned to coach
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there like I've got so much uh great memories of those young guys they were just jumping out of the
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skin wanting to play love the game um coached in the afternoon after school ideal environment ideal
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um group of guys to coach still see them a lot have we have social occasions we get
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together um so it was the ideal environment to learn to coach yeah by the way on that um scorecard of your
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career for ockland grammar uh you were the coach of 102 games do you know what your success record was or how many wins
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losses oh was fairly High I think yeah 93% success you know good coaches Dom have good teams yeah yeah yeah yeah you
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dropped a lot of good names there yeah no no we had good teams and um and as I say they were just a great bunch of
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young men a lot of them have made a massive difference to life in New Zealand quite frankly been very
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successful people not necessarily in sport but in business and and in community yeah fantastic and then you
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sort of Rise through the coaching ranks I suppose this is when you are you familiar with the a guy called Malcolm
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Gladwell in the 10,000 hour Theory I I hear about the 10,000 yeah so this this would have been nice but where you cut
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your teeth or got your 10,000 hours right through the the school system and through those sort of Junior grades yeah
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look I I was a bit of a goal Setter and um know when you win a couple of championships at Secondary School level
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you think you can coach the world so pretty arrogant as you say um so I was a goal Setter and I used to write my goals
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down and one of them well it was good marriage and school Headmaster and Coach the ORS only taught me through 30 years
00:16:59
to get there so but you know as I say um what a foundation to be able to learn to coach
00:17:06
in that environment well what else was on that list were they the three gos or oh you know successful kids kids who
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enjoy life I can't remember the rest D you've nailed them all um yeah I think
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so like I'm like life's been fantastic and our school Headmaster I think we've got a great
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marriage but You' have to ask ran that well she's stuck around she has but
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she's always a promising sign she's a very resilient woman um you know and and and coaching
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the or black so you know I I was 30 years later when I managed to I was 58 when I started coaching the old black so
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it took a we l of time but I wasn't a professional rugby player or an old black so in those days you just did you
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went through the grades and and it's a Pity that doesn't happen more often
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although know um razer's done the same you know he started off Coaching Club
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footy and and gone through so that's good yeah this is your your age thing is
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part of what um attracts me to um the Graham Henry story I'm I'm 51 now I got
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a lot of mates in there you early mid-50s and a lot of them have just sort of it feels like they've reached the
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Apex of their life and they're just sort of like cruising along now or even sort
00:18:22
of going downhill the fact that like all your greatest coaching achievements happened after the age of 50
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it's um I think it's inspirational I think it's cool well the game went
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professional in '96 mhm and I was 50 in '96 uh so you know just and the and like
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what can you say of the best years of your life but I was 58 to 66 when I coached the or blacks and I look back
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and say how lucky you were you know fantastic um um so I got huge gratitude for that
00:19:00
opportunity suppose it seems seems quite old to be coaching a big team like the olds but still far too young to be
00:19:06
president of America what a shamble that is [ __ ] show oh so um yes so you uh in Oakland in the
00:19:14
90s you were sort of like um suppose the thing you could compare it to as like Razer and Canterbury right like you were
00:19:20
winning everything how many how many NPC titles did you you won like three in a row four in a row yeah but as I said
00:19:26
before you know we had a marvous foundation so hary coached them and then Morris and BG Morris with tra and BG
00:19:34
Williams and then I followed them and there was a magnificent period of Walken rugby uh in fact I was the coach when
00:19:42
they lost the shield you you want it back though right yeah but you know I we still lost it I
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think it was 64 challenges and it was ridiculous um length of time 8 years or something so
00:19:59
I think Hardy won it against Canterbury Hardy definitely won it as coach his team won it then BG and
00:20:08
Morris kept it then Ted got the team and lost it and there was a big very big social
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function of the ranil shield era and the guest speakers were John Hart and Morris
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trap graah Henry stood in the corner cuz he had lost the bloody thing but uh so we we had very good Rugby
00:20:31
teams and um so you know a lot of credit must go to those fantastic players we just happen to be the coaches and oh
00:20:40
you're you're you're deflecting a lot of the a lot of the credit here um rugby at
00:20:45
the time was a dynasty it was I I loved it loved the involvement we won four national championships in a row um I
00:20:54
think from 93 to whatever mhm 93 94 955 96 and the team won the first two super the oran coach was also the blues coach
00:21:06
and Matt mccallan was was the other coach in the Blues who was outstanding and we won the first two Blues there
00:21:14
first two super championships in 96 and 97 got beaten in 98 by the Crusaders at Eden Park in the final still annoys me D
00:21:25
um and then I went to Wales so those those years in the Blues who who was was Jonah in those teams
00:21:32
yeah we had a Poor Side really like we had Jonah and Joey Vere and Adrien Cas Ronnie Clark and Lee stenus and caros
00:21:40
Spencer Junior T Michael Jones and Zam Brook Mark Carter Robin Brooke you know your memory's good isn't it H Brown
00:21:51
Craig Dow Shan Fitzpatrick like it was a was an average team yeah yeah it wasn't
00:21:57
a team of Champions eh it was what what are your what are your memories of um like Joon Mania or the first time you
00:22:04
the first time you sort of came across this kid oh he was very quiet I mean he couldn't get boo out of him and he and
00:22:11
he struggled with the fitness side of the game and we know why now uh but hell he changed the game like
00:22:19
he the television people couldn't wait to get professional rugby on the screens
00:22:25
and he was the Catalyst of that he was he was he changed the game like 120 kilo Winger who could run the 100 meters in
00:22:33
11 seconds and do what he did on the on the Rugby field I was on the coaching of
00:22:39
course D 100% it would have been nothing without you and then you know I remember
00:22:44
him scoring a try in a semifinal probably in 97 where he got the ball from the end of
00:22:52
the line out half back to him half back to Winger and he scored under the under the post from the 22
00:23:00
four guys hanging on to him you know that's all in the coaching [Music] surely at at that time um I was a a
00:23:08
young broadcaster in paliston north and rugby just went professional so I had a couple of um couple of mates who had a
00:23:14
lot of spare time on their hands like Christian Kalen uh Christen Davis Mark ramby so a few of us would play golf all
00:23:20
day um Christian went on to be a very good old black as as you'd be well aware
00:23:24
of he he told me stories of those early days of professional rugby about um just the sort of money that was going
00:23:31
around and that'd be on the team bus that'd stop somewhere and Jonah would
00:23:34
buy like a a stereo for the bus and just the money what was your experience when
00:23:40
rugby first went professional of um you know these these young kids that had no sort of financial literacy coming into
00:23:45
big sums of money being being the wise old soul of the team well um no like I I think they took a while to to shake down
00:23:56
into into professional athletes and maybe it's gone too far now you know like they still love the game like those
00:24:04
guys are brought up working doing normal jobs Carpenters or electricians or lawyers or whatever School
00:24:13
teachers um so it took them a while to get their feet under the table in the professional sense I remember
00:24:21
Jonah we played a preseason game super preseason game in Greymouth uh before he went to the Highlanders the
00:24:30
first game of the championship and there was probably 6,000 people there and after the game
00:24:36
there would have been 5,000 people around Jonah like he was just he just he was enormous in the game but he just
00:24:45
attracted people um I look I I I can't remember how they handle the the money side of things but
00:24:55
they were a pleasure um I've about him buying cars for young players later on in his career
00:25:02
I I think that's probably an exaggeration but I could be wrong amazing and then so was around this time
00:25:08
so um you're you're part of this um massive massive success in Oakland um
00:25:13
all of you nothing to do with the players and then um says is this about the time when the whales thing comes
00:25:19
along so you get overlooked for an All Black's job what happens there you you
00:25:23
sort of sned by the old black I had applied for the old Black's job uh hell it's a long time ago um I think
00:25:31
when hary got the job in 95 and thank God I missed it CU I wasn't ready but you think you are why with
00:25:40
hindsight why do why do you look back now and say you weren't ready well I hadn't you know I'd been a school
00:25:46
teacher I hadn't been involved in the game so like a guy like Wayne Smith and
00:25:50
Steve Hansen they were in rugby acmy and so on so it was part when the game was amate so they grew up in the game if you
00:25:58
like Smithy was CEO of hawks Bay rugby I was a school teacher and a school principal so I wasn't involved in the
00:26:05
game apart from it was my passion my hobby uh coaching the game and so you know in um 95 I was still a school
00:26:19
principal although to to be fair wasn't John Hart it was like a side hustle for
00:26:23
him as well right he had his job at yeah yeah yeah but he had you know he had coached Orland in the middle 80s okay
00:26:29
more P's duws more you mean yeah yeah he he yeah and so I wasn't ready so I was
00:26:36
you know I thought I might get the job uh and um that was something you missed which just thank God you'd missed
00:26:45
that um I can't remember the question Dom what was the question oh so yeah it
00:26:49
was around this time that you you left and went to Wales so oh yeah I got an invitation to co the
00:26:55
Welsh uh so I got a ring are you interested which you know when you got a a rugby nation which is as mad
00:27:04
as the Welsh it's their number you know it's their national sport they're
00:27:09
passionate about it uh there's a huge relationship between the Welsh and the
00:27:13
New Zealand about rugby lot of respect um so I was I was pretty chuff to get an invitation to go to Wales absolutely so
00:27:23
I was coaching the blues and the Orland at the time and I thought oh I better go down
00:27:28
and have a chat to New Zealand Rugby about this cuz I really wanted to coach the All Blacks as being a key will you
00:27:36
that's what you want to do so I went down and saw David Mofford in Wellington
00:27:40
he was the CEO of New Zealand Rugby uh he just abused me did he actually he just I can't repeat what he
00:27:49
said it's a podcast you can if you want no I can't it was really what was it
00:27:54
really is this true like I couldn't believe what he said to me what just really dismissive or like just actually
00:28:02
down right Road uh both he just swore at me and said if you go to go to uh Wales you'll never coach
00:28:12
in this country again with a few expletives um and I was shocked which just gave me the more make me more
00:28:21
determined to go and then I then I did some homework you know with a few board members and they were lukewarm so I
00:28:30
thought ah M I'll go and um I did discuss it we with Ren of course um lesson learned from
00:28:42
Christ and no it was I was I was amazed and they put this Clause together called
00:28:48
the Henry Clause if he went overseason coached International R you wouldn't coach the old blacks you wouldn't coach
00:28:54
in this country again in fact is that what it was called the Henry yeah and so I thought I'd Burt the
00:29:01
bridges quite frankly um and just to finish that story when I came back uh the 2003 Rugby World Cup was
00:29:13
eminent so I came back in 2002 and was meant to be in New Zealand and Australia 2003 Rugby World Cup but
00:29:23
because they couldn't get clean grounds no advertising in New Zealand the International Rugby Bo the IRB at that
00:29:29
time now in World rugby said n we can't have the World Cup in New Zealand can't
00:29:34
get clean grounds we're only be in Australia so the board and the CEO got got moved
00:29:43
on all of them all of them are the same and the Henry cause was lost yeah and uh
00:29:51
history's history you must have do you send them all condolence cards at the
00:29:55
time was it was a it was It was a it was disappointing actually cuz you'd you'd
00:30:00
given a lot of a lot of time to and not because you didn't enjoy it but I'd
00:30:07
coached in walk and rugby for I coached the under 20s for four years the B team for a year and probably six or seven
00:30:15
years with the a team so probably 12 years of service um it's a real slap in the face
00:30:22
it's not like I was hell of an enjoyable for me but the reaction for me going to
00:30:28
Wales was really negative from New Zealand and Orland rugby wow yeah yeah was it at the time I I
00:30:38
remember um yeah you did a press conference and then left the country straight away right pretty much you oh
00:30:43
your car got to you had did a press conference and your car got toed to get a get a taxi to the
00:30:49
airport was it David mofet that towed your car oh possibly I I was talking to deaker actually Mar deaker yeah I said
00:30:58
I'm going to Wales and I'm going tonight uh it just happened he was a mate at the
00:31:05
time and um it was just a way of sort of rolling off and I did have a car obviously I parked it in the right wrong
00:31:14
place so they had to and had to find it but I flew to Wales that night um that's right with with um Grant
00:31:22
Dalton he happened to be in the lounge and you guys ended up um sitting next to each other on the plane
00:31:29
I don't know if he sat next to other in F but we certainly had a conversation um yeah yeah it was like it
00:31:38
was really exciting to have a new challenge but disappointing that after a lot of time in New Zealand Rugby that
00:31:48
the administrators just cut me off and since there was that thing called the Henry claws like you must have when you
00:31:56
hopped on that plane it must have been um quite significant like you must have really thought that was it you know what
00:32:02
I mean it's like your you the stream that you had this dream that you had in
00:32:06
your drawer along with you know keeping your marriage good and raising happy healthy kids you could strike that off
00:32:12
that dream was over yeah take that a we bit further down I the I talked to the CEO of Oran rugby because I had a
00:32:20
contract with them I didn't have a contract with New Zealand even though I was coaching Super Rugby with the blues
00:32:26
I didn't agree with the contract so I didn't sign it but I had a contract with Oakland
00:32:32
rugby which went on for another I think another 18 months and I talked to the CEO and he said oh you've got a hell of
00:32:40
a lot of service talking you'll be fine Ted don't worry about it and just before I left I got a ring
00:32:47
from the CEO he said look we're in a board meeting uh would you can you come along
00:32:53
to the board meeting I said oh yeah I thought this doesn't sound too good so I
00:32:58
arve at the board meeting they said look we're happy for you to go to Wales but
00:33:02
you'll have to pay you'll have to buy out of your contract I said how much is
00:33:06
that they said 300K [ __ ] and so um I thought that was pretty bad at the time and so I some of
00:33:16
my mates and rugby got together and put some pressure on it was reduced to 150 if I known they were going to do that
00:33:23
when I signed the contract with Wales they would have paid it m but I said no everything's okay I'm sure or R would be
00:33:30
fine but I was mistaken it was very disappointing at the time so I paid that 150 over 3 years 50,000 a year for three
00:33:39
years it's a lot of money you were earning good money though right like £250 a year in Wales oh we B more than
00:33:45
that though was it more than that and that the exchange rate was terrible so that's like three times that in New
00:33:49
Zealand yeah no it was it was a good contract yeah and um so you weren't too
00:33:54
worried about the ockland money was just the principle but I really wanted to take another step in my coaching so I'd
00:34:00
coached provincial rugby and Super Rugby for eight years and I wanted to coach International Rugby I was I was 50 52 53
00:34:13
so I was maturing I was getting on and it was a magnificent experience I I look back and think hell and ran went
00:34:24
over and she coached a Welsh uh coached a clubside in Cardiff and uh she's she's into Neto
00:34:31
she's a very good netball coach coach Oakland uh and she was coaching this club team and they asked her to coach
00:34:38
the Welsh team so she was coaching Welsh Neto and I was coaching Welsh rugby so we're how a couple we were pretty busy
00:34:46
at the time loved that you know we were very very very involved in the in Welsh community and and and the environment
00:34:55
and all the people uh just love that experience you go over and you know nobody so it's a hell of a challenge and
00:35:04
the Welsh had had some challenges with their results over the previous couple of years so there was a big Challenge on
00:35:12
yeah cuz before you went over there they played South Africa and lost by like 80
00:35:15
points or something right 963 963 yes and then you must and you signed by then you must have been thinking what
00:35:24
am I walking into no 63 funny enough when all this was happening and David mord said if you go to Wales
00:35:35
you'll never coaching this country again I arranged to meet the CEO of Welsh
00:35:40
rugby and the chairman in Sydney and it was the weekend of the 963 or whatever it was so was probably a
00:35:49
good time to be talking to them and I signed the contract in Sydney so I didn't go to Wales cuz I didn't
00:35:57
didn't know if I was going to sign it till I saw all the detail and I had a lawyer who I sent the
00:36:05
contract to emailed it do we have emails in 96 that it's probably like a telegram
00:36:13
anyway 98 it was must have had emails anyway I finished up signing the contract in in
00:36:21
Sydney um yeah but but a team a team that's just lost by 93 points what makes
00:36:27
it what makes you think you can add value and turn them around where do you begin um is it because they're in such a
00:36:33
such a crap place you think the you know the the only way is up yeah you didn't think of that you
00:36:39
know they've got a history which was fantastic not always successful but I remember watching the 1970 Lions play
00:36:47
you know and Carwin James's team and it was the the nucle of that team was Welsh
00:36:53
and a lot of those Welsh guys like like Barry John and GTH Edward and those and JB Williams and all those guys I met MH
00:37:03
when I was in Wales uh fantastic men and I they they have had a history of some success M so there must been this
00:37:11
something in the in the blood there and then the country that so just a it was just a bad a bad game bad game and and
00:37:18
your um your results were immediate like you 11 wins in a row they weren't quite
00:37:24
immediate um but from an outsider's perspective it seems like like you no there was two or three tests we went
00:37:29
through before we started to win right yeah we had a we yeah we had a good run we had a bit of luck we had a good
00:37:37
run um and you know the Millennium Stadium was being built and we played South Africa to open the Millennium
00:37:46
Stadium and Wales had never beaten South Africa we're talking 1998 are we 298 have I got that right
00:37:55
yeah I think so opening of the millennium might have been 99 actually and um we beat the South
00:38:02
Africans out the Millennium Stadium was only half full for security reasons so they half full three quarters full full
00:38:10
for the opening of the stadium for for health and safety reasons and um I think we won 26 or
00:38:20
2719 brilliant brilliant you know like it's dreams are made of those things just fantastic and we we had some some
00:38:30
good wins we beat France and Paris for the first time since 1976 uh we beat England and Wembley in a
00:38:38
special game 3332 3231 something like that um so by the way your recall is incredible um so yeah don't get me they
00:38:54
ask some difficult questions but and don't defect afterwards you know was there was a brilliant group of guys we
00:39:01
connected well um and I think being out a non- Welsh people person that helped because it's
00:39:09
very tribal Wales is very tribal East vers West uh Northwest South M so often because it's Tribal and you get a Welsh
00:39:20
person selecting they pick their own rather than the best right so you were neutral sometimes
00:39:28
and I was neutral and managed to pick the best team and I've just been to been
00:39:33
to Europe been to Wales been a c for anniversary of that England game against Wales W England at Wembley in
00:39:44
1999 uh 18th of March we had a anniversary of that game um 25 years incredible and I've
00:39:54
just been to the anniversary in Cardiff brilliant brilliant guys great fun are you are you still like a like a God over
00:40:03
there that's a stupid question to ask me John am I still like God over there no I
00:40:09
just love the people they're they're very supportive uh they celebrate successes
00:40:15
they don't have a lot um and you know there's a lot of unemployment in Wales particularly in
00:40:22
the valleys and rugby to them is very important and successes they celebrate and they've got great
00:40:30
memories of of fantastic wins you know but yes so this was around the time that you got the nickname um the great
00:40:37
Redeemer um how was that at the time ridiculous what you don't have like a I
00:40:43
see if I was you I'd have like a probably a framed newspaper on my wall at home with um that headline did did it
00:40:49
sit comfortably with you it must have felt like the ultimate [ __ ] you to David
00:40:52
Mofford and the nzru back home yeah yeah I guess it was it just was the part ofy
00:40:58
that just makes you nervous cuz you know that you know what goes up must come come down no you don't think of that no
00:41:04
no you just you're just trying to do your best you know and um and I I I coached like I'd always coached and how
00:41:12
I've been coach you coach from the front you drive it and then then the finish it
00:41:18
takes its toll you know after those after that series of successes and let's be frank we got to the 99 rby
00:41:27
World Cup and we get to the quarterfinal got beaten by the Australians in the quarterfinal they
00:41:34
went on to win the Rugby World Cup they were good in those days best in the world so they won the 990 World Cup but
00:41:41
they beat us in the quarter I can't remember what the school was 79 or something like that um and then I got
00:41:51
asked to coach the British and Irish Lions and the British and Irish Lions is a huge huge part of the game you know
00:41:58
yeah England Ireland Scotland and Wales oh yeah so it's it's a legendary rugby
00:42:03
team and it makes rugby go round it's a big fillet for the South Africa Australia New Zealand when they tour
00:42:12
because it fills the cfers but you know Lions teams have been fantastic over the years and be the
00:42:19
first non Brit non-irish person to be asked to coach the British and Irish Lions is
00:42:27
is Big yeah even though I soate myself um so it's just an opportunity you just can't it's too good to turn
00:42:35
down and also you know you wanted to stick it up New Zealand Rugby and say well you can you're not you're not a
00:42:39
bloody hasb or you can do the job um but it took its toll and I look I when I got when I was
00:42:49
asked to do the job obviously I had to discuss it with the world's rug Union
00:42:54
and um they said look don't do this Ted too much too much on your plate and I
00:43:02
thought I was bulletproof you were the great great Redeemer yeah I thought it was
00:43:07
bulletproof but it took its toll and I hit the wall and got depression yeah actually I've got um I've got a a photo
00:43:13
to show you know there's that saying of a picture paints a thousand words yeah
00:43:17
what um what do you feel when you see this oh yeah yeah yeah yeah well that was know the lies to I've seen the I've
00:43:25
seen the photo thanks Tom don't even want to hold it where we want no no no no no well you know we had all
00:43:34
the players on the lines to had had um contracts with media M with a newspaper and um those two Dawson and
00:43:44
Healey uh weren't great team people at the time and so Dawson had written some negative
00:43:54
stuff before the first test about the Lions and my coaching and which is you know the way it was but it
00:44:04
came out in all the it came out in the newspapers before the first test in Brisbane a game that we happened to win
00:44:11
and win very comfortably and play superbly uh but you know it's just the way it was in those days you know um I'm
00:44:20
sure players don't have media contracts today but that's the way it was then and
00:44:25
uh so it pretty lonely tour like I'm not blaming anybody no um I was coaching
00:44:32
with three or four English guys who were bloody good and I enjoyed them and I think we did a good job it was a hell of
00:44:41
a series cuz the Australians were world champions from 99 and this is 2011 finished up getting beaten 21 seven
00:44:48
tries each I'm popping up my own tires here do um but when I got back to Wales
00:44:54
I was just completely buggered M and um and I knew I had to get out um otherwise I was just going to
00:45:05
die if you know what I mean and I I I had some good mats David Pickering and his wife Justine he was the manager of
00:45:13
the team ex or or ex Welsh captain and ran and I sat around the table and discusted and decided that I would
00:45:22
resign I had still had 18 months of the contract to go yeah do you do you think it was just the the Lions thing that
00:45:27
took it out of you and doing the Lions thing coaching Wales and just the the the the exhaustion of you know maybe
00:45:33
having that split or division within the team just everything just a cumulative effect yeah I think so yeah I thought I
00:45:39
was bulletproof yes you do yeah yeah and I wasn't and I was told uh don't do it
00:45:46
and ever since then the Lions coach has had a Year's leave of absence from their
00:45:50
normal job so Warren Gatlin for example he coached the Lions a couple of times he was a Welsh coach he would have a
00:45:56
years Le absence from Wales and just do the lines so they did learn a bit from that um which is nice yeah that you were
00:46:04
the guinea pig but you know it's just accumulation that I just CU I used to drive it from the front was which was
00:46:13
wrong I should have involved the other people a lot more particularly the players and that was the big learning so
00:46:19
from that adversity I look back on and think hell if that hadn't happened um we wouldn't have done the
00:46:26
same things with the All Blacks you know it changed the way I coached it changed
00:46:30
the way I thought about the players and the team and the rest of the management so it was a massive learning
00:46:38
experience um so difficult at the time yeah but no I look back and think yeah good time difficult but good learning
00:46:50
yeah these things are difficult but when you yeah when you get through them and have some um you Clarity at the other
00:46:54
end or see the light at the end of the tunnel however you frame at it works out for the best but yeah what what did yeah
00:47:00
what did the depression look like for you CU it's quite a you know CU I um I
00:47:05
went through some mental health stuff myself maybe about five or six years ago in my mid-40s and it's quite alarming
00:47:09
when you go through life without any of this sort of stuff and then suddenly it happens oh I just didn't want to connect
00:47:15
with people head away lie on my bed reading books yeah self-isolate isolation um and I just couldn't get
00:47:23
myself up to do the like I you need to be jumped on your toes on edge to do it right well I did right I could tell you
00:47:34
some stories D but I I won't won't bore the public but um no I I knew that I had
00:47:42
like health is everything and I knew I had to get out of there I had 80 months of my contract I was been paid a th000
00:47:48
New Zealand a million New Zealand dollars a year um so it wasn't giving away
00:47:54
something that was not significant who did but I had to get out did you did you um yeah you mentioned um a guy before
00:48:02
that you could talk to did you did you see any therapist or anything no but you did you have like a a team mental skills
00:48:08
coach or anything in Wales that you could have spoken to or no no so just a couple of friends that you sort of did
00:48:13
you did you mainly sort of bottle it up no I or work it out internally yourself I just
00:48:21
knew I've been driving myself for a long time yeah with Orland and the blue and
00:48:27
the Welsh and the Lions I just knew that I had to get there from space m um and I
00:48:35
had no space yeah and the only way I could get space was not do the job anymore I still bloody passionate about
00:48:42
rugby coaching so I just made a decision made a decision to resign and the Welsh Rugby Union was fantastic a
00:48:52
very supportive did did did did people know something was up or do you think you wore quite a good mask I've had I've
00:48:57
had um your old mate um sjn Kuan on the podcast and he talked about like wearing
00:49:01
a mask and how he wore a bit mask I don't I don't think I even thought about
00:49:06
that yeah um you just knowing your gut that it's time to move so I coached 37 tests for Wales and three for the
00:49:17
Lions 40 tests um and you know I just knew that I needed some space mhm to get myself self
00:49:27
right and you know i' burnt the bridges so was a hell of a big decision oh the
00:49:33
burnt the bridges as in New Zealand yeah well to be fair well I feel like they sort of they sort of burnt the bridges
00:49:39
is that right like David Mo and the New Zealand Rugby Union they they left you painted in a corner with no option no
00:49:44
well they they told me if I'd ever coach I coached overseas International never
00:49:49
coach in this country right country again so I I'd made the decision to go to Wales and I knew that was the
00:49:56
decision so it was a hell of a big decision but the team was much more important than me and you know I
00:50:04
knew that I needed to get some space uh rayan stayed CU she was coaching the W netball team to a World Cup in Jamaica
00:50:13
so she stayed I came home I went back to Christ Church we had a house in ockland
00:50:19
no oh actually you you're skipping out one bit I think um she was coaching in
00:50:24
um Singapore and you went to visit her and she she sent you off to the year old groomsman who happened to live in
00:50:30
Singapore cuz she was like I'm busy overlooked that but God you know lot you've done your homework now when I
00:50:39
was going through this depression yeah ran was in Singapore uh with the Welsh Neto team in
00:50:47
a preor cup tournament and I was sitting at home by myself I thought oh Buck of this so I
00:50:55
jumped on a plane from Heath went to Singapore walked into the hotel said good day how you
00:51:00
going I said well and my one of our mates lived in Singapore it was a groomsman at our wedding so I spent a
00:51:08
bit of time with him and then we went to puket yeah Thailand and went to the beach for a
00:51:14
week got my toes in the sand and relaxed and went back from there to Wales and still still wasn't right were you okay
00:51:26
PUK I when I had John har on the podcast he said the same sort of thing like after
00:51:31
he fell into depression after the 99 World Cup and his wife took him to dinal for a while um but there's that saying
00:51:37
um wherever you go there you are so whatever's going you can be on the nicest beach in the world but yeah yeah
00:51:44
um no so it didn't work yeah but she was fantastic as always came back to Wales
00:51:51
went through the process of getting out um and as I said the wsh rug Union was fantastic and she stayed and I went back
00:52:00
to Christ Church uh where my parents were and I took them to acara and I ran the forest in akaroa M
00:52:08
every day and it's amazing the connection between the physical and the mental and I started to come right
00:52:15
started to started to relax and feel good and then I got a phone call from Japan from was University would you come
00:52:24
and Coach us so it gave me an opportunity to get back on the bike and the Japanese only asked you when they're
00:52:30
good so I knew they would be a good side cuz they they wouldn't you know they couldn't do that unless they had a
00:52:37
great side and I I coached them with David Young who happened to be the captain of the Welsh team when I was
00:52:42
coaching prop forward and a very funny man a good man so we had or a long time probably a couple of months in in Japan
00:52:50
M and they won the Japanese University Title as they were always going to do and I trained every morning with David
00:53:00
coached every afternoon so back on the bike and started to feel veryy good again just start to get your confidence
00:53:08
back and get a bit of momentum yeah yeah what do you think um we'll you'll close
00:53:14
the chapter on this in a second but um biggest learnings about yourself in this time and any Silver Linings from
00:53:21
depression oh I think the big thing I learned it wasn't about me you know the
00:53:26
coach it it was about them and I had to involve um more of the management and the senior players and the driving of
00:53:34
the team so I think that was the biggest learning curve I couldn't drive it by
00:53:39
myself in fact I was sitting with um um Clive Woodward after an England game and
00:53:47
he and we're on the same table black TI dinner after six nations go at twickingham and he's got eight guys
00:53:56
around him and I've got three and he said Ted you don't think you three can
00:54:01
beat us eight do you and know so and you look at what they doing to know there's there's a
00:54:09
large number of specialist coaches anyway the biggest learning I had was one it was about them not about
00:54:18
me you know and the more I could involve them and give them ownership and responsibility the better I would be and
00:54:25
the better they would be and the second thing I learned is that I had to look after myself and so I developed a
00:54:33
personal game plan of of self-preservation if you like or self um feeling good mentally so mental health
00:54:42
physical health so I did a lot of exercise and as I said to you before D there a huge connection between the
00:54:48
mental and the physical uh having good mentors so I started to talk to a lot of people few people John Graham was a good
00:54:58
mate you know we'd gone through a lot together I he' been very helpful over
00:55:02
the years um and he he he was hell of a good Mentor spent time talking to him jock
00:55:10
Hobs who was the chair of new rugby Chris do who probably heard of he was a good mate of mine at school we talked
00:55:17
together at or grammar school he was an opera singer um he came back from Asia from
00:55:24
Austria we we used to have long lunches M and talk challenge he was fantastic so
00:55:31
a lot of good mentors um and just getting away you know getting your I spent a lot of time
00:55:38
up in Russell up over at way hickey just chilling fishing relaxing connecting with nature
00:55:46
I'm I'm so pleased that you found um I'm I'm a massive fan of running I'm so
00:55:50
pleased that you found um you know your mental well-being again in the um in the
00:55:54
trails of akaroa that's cool yeah and it was and it was um like my parents in those days were in their
00:56:02
80s yeah in their 80s and and so they were getting older we' been and I hadn't
00:56:08
seen them for a while so just spending some time with them but you know that as I said I can't emphasize enough exercise
00:56:16
and mental mental health uh massive correlation yeah and and talking about things and showing vulnerability it's
00:56:24
not something um you or I and our ation growing up whereever sort of no no and and and been old like John rayan John
00:56:32
Graham jock hops those guys they know fantastic just to be old to and and then when I got involved in the OR sko with
00:56:43
Anoka who was a mental skills coach we used to meet every night and discuss the day and how it went and how we can
00:56:50
improve tomorrow and um yeah I just just sharing sharing and sharing ideas sharing your thoughts
00:56:59
sharing your vulnerability uh using helping making sure those guys were right in center
00:57:08
making sure they were very much part of the future you know Wayne Smith Steve Hansen
00:57:14
Gilbert Anoka Mike craon and the All Blacks yeah well thanks foring up about that stuff yes so we're at the part now
00:57:21
where you become all black coach so the dream that you had for your entire life um yeah you even outlived the Henry
00:57:30
Clause so you get the job in 2003 after the World Cup or 2004 after the World Cup who do you who do you replace is it
00:57:39
John Mitchell no yes it's John Mitchell but it was I went to the Rugby World Cup
00:57:43
and where I meant to be coaching the Welsh Steve Hansen took over so I gave him the poison
00:57:50
chalice well so to speak um he took over the Welsh but I was there as as a tour leader of a group of supporters Rowan
00:58:00
and I and we watched the or blacks play and obviously um they got beaten in a semifinal in
00:58:10
Sydney and you know but what really happened was the the 203 Rugby World Cup was meant to be in Australia and New
00:58:18
Zealand if I mentioned this already yeah yeah yeah about the um the signage in the stadium so it was in Australia so
00:58:24
the whole in you board got the X yeah yeah and and the CEO and Henry cross was lost so I that was great and then you
00:58:33
know I got involved in Oran rugby again um I went from a million dollar to $20,000 we would of a drop it's like
00:58:43
going from being a a breakfast radio broadcaster to a podcaster I don't know
00:58:47
anything about that but that's okay and so I and the Oakland and the blues teams
00:58:52
had a good time over that period of time when I came back and won three championships in a row and I applied for
00:58:58
the old blacks and and John Mitchell who was a bloody good coach and I were the only two who applied for the job and I
00:59:06
managed to get the job well yeah well at that stage um if you lost a World Cup you were done weren't
00:59:13
you yeah usually at that stage yeah you only get one shot at it until until you came see so so you become coach uh
00:59:23
2004 um you had a good when did Rich and Dan and those guys come along when did you first come across those guys as
00:59:30
coach was it around this time yeah well Richie first played I think in 2011 oh yeah so you inherited Richie yeah and he
00:59:37
was a kid then I think he probably 20 or 19 or 20 um so he had played quite a bit of
00:59:44
all black rugby Dan started I he started the year before me um but he was a inside Center second
00:59:54
58 see is mainly a second 5'8 in those days um yeah but it was good to have those men along they were quite good
01:00:04
they weren't bad were they to be fear helped Along by a good coach they were
01:00:08
pretty helpful yeah but I think the big thing is that we uh we had a like Minds you know I was
01:00:15
lucky enough to to get Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen to help and Mike cron who was the Ford
01:00:22
coach uh grahe low who was the conditioning coach um Gilbert sports psychologist um so we had a good nucleus
01:00:34
and we were likeminded about team-driven culture rather than than coach driven culture so yeah where did that sort of
01:00:43
thinking come from you know the the whole leadership group and everything else well that came from from from me
01:00:49
yeah it it didn't necessarily come from me cuz we're likeminded but it came from
01:00:55
the welshan line experience knowing that it was not about me it was about them still a weit about me but a lot
01:01:03
more about them so it's like driving the bus from the back of the bus instead of
01:01:08
the front of the bus yeah and you're developing the people in front of you giving them the right education and
01:01:15
skills to take responsibility and ownership and um but that take a while to to to mold in cuz you get the blacks
01:01:26
in my time now we we we met on a Sunday and you play your first test on the Saturday we're playing England and an
01:01:33
Eden just like um Razor's doing this weekend uh so that was 2 years ago same
01:01:44
opposition I'm going to needen got to be there there yeah who yeah do you you still
01:01:50
enjoy going and watching the games oh hell yes where will you be sitting who will you be with oh we with alako I'll
01:01:57
be with so I'm going to hospitality uh but it's just a parallel you know my when I was a coach the first
01:02:06
test I was involved in was England indoned all right yeah and and raised his first test as England in the Eden so
01:02:16
it's only 20 years ago um so I just want to be there and um like it's part of you
01:02:25
and just hope DNA I just hope it has a great start so um yeah so but in those days you know you didn't have any
01:02:34
leading so you meet on a Sunday you play on the Saturday and that goes on for quite a
01:02:40
while and we finish up in this first series of games uh in Johannesburg and this is the end of the
01:02:49
tri Nations and they all won our home tests Australia won their home tests New Zealand won their home tests
01:02:56
and S Afric had won their one home test so we're playing South Africa in Johannesburg and it's 2004 and it's the
01:03:07
10th anniversary of Freedom Day in South Africa so a partied with abolished in 1994 and it's massive Alice Park joerg
01:03:18
every seat's got a drum on it and a scarf and the drum's got spring box colors and the scarf spring box scarf
01:03:26
and Nelson Mandela walks out on D Park and congratulates the springbox on their selection wishes them well and I'm
01:03:34
sitting in the coaches box with Smithy and Steve I'm thinking hell this is hell
01:03:39
of a game and Nelson Mandela like we play for the freedom cup which is really about the change you know and and you
01:03:48
you feel really uh it's a really good thing to be involved in yeah and um but we get
01:04:01
beaten so we get finished last in the tri Nations on points for and against and we go back to the team hotel
01:04:11
and we have a we have a court session and it's not very good it's pretty ugly Court you know what a court
01:04:19
session is yeah like from old Club rugby days like a drinking session drinking games and that was part of the or
01:04:25
culture right which I'm not criticizing that it was just part part of the time
01:04:28
part of the tradition and didn't it doesn't finish up that well it's pretty ugly what sort
01:04:35
of what sort of things were happening in cour you you don't need to know all that
01:04:38
stuff but so we had a judge in a jury in compulsory drinking and I'm thinking
01:04:44
hell this is not good in the professional period we need to be better than this go back to go back to New
01:04:52
Zealand call a meeting at head office and um and discuss where we're at and say how do you enjoy playing with the
01:05:02
old black boys you know got 10 senior players oh we feel very privileged um we feel you know we feel very grateful but
01:05:11
we don't enjoy the culture and we don't enjoy the expectation which was a massive
01:05:18
statement from the senior players and that was the that was gold it was the Catalyst for me me change and then we
01:05:27
had the time because we had two or three months before the Indie year tour and so
01:05:31
we put in a leadership group set a purpose set up the culture uh discussed it with a team it
01:05:39
became reasonably strong solid concrete always R for change of course but and that was the start of the of the team
01:05:49
driven culture really and it it proved very successful you know we had some hiccups
01:05:57
yeah I am had some hiccups but in the main you know it was it was it got it Go players ownership and
01:06:07
responsibility uh and they were fantastic you know and the more ownership and responsibility they got
01:06:13
the better they played Yeah you mentioned um with a r smile just a second ago about the
01:06:19
hiccups in 2007 um do you want have a look at another photo yeah yeah you don't even want to touch
01:06:27
that yeah I've seen that just about put that one in the fire yeah how do you how do you feel when you
01:06:36
say it is it does it does it bring back any any sort of emotion or feeling of that day
01:06:44
oh yeah no it was the hardest day of Our Lives I think so there was um when you guys were knocked out of the 2007 World
01:06:50
Cup with that um just remarkable um for numerous reasons came against France um and Richie book The
01:06:58
Open side he he said it was just like a moment that was captured by camera looks
01:07:03
like he's crying but he he wasn't he was just wiping away some sweet or something
01:07:07
um yeah now that was at the press conference after the game yeah and as you could imagine there was you know
01:07:14
couple of hundred people in the press conference there probably 20 television companies there and it's like we were
01:07:21
favorites to win so we had a very successful run into into the Rugby World Cup in
01:07:27
207 we got bit complacent to be fair you know we we had beaten the French by a big score not not long before the Rugby
01:07:38
World Cup in 207 and so we got ahead of ourselves you know and complacency is the biggest evil
01:07:45
in business and Sport I guess and we got complacent um and you know it was a difficult game the because the
01:07:55
officiating in the game was not normally what how we had experienced it and so the boys found that
01:08:03
difficult um and so they froze most of them choked and we got you know got beaten 20
01:08:12
points to 18 and at the end of the day you know that was another huge loing curve and it probably was the was a
01:08:24
foundation to winning Rugby World Cup with a bit of luck in 211 and 25 well there is that saying you learn
01:08:32
more from your your fails than from any successes right but how did you how did you manage to break history and keep the
01:08:39
job after that because as we mentioned before with every single World Cup since um the start of that tournament in 1987
01:08:47
you had one shot at it and then you were you were gone you were out B baby was out with the bath water so was it
01:08:52
because you still had the support of the players like how did you manage to keep
01:08:56
keep the job and get a sick and crack at it oh I think you know we had a hell of
01:09:00
a good record um to be frank we had a very good record in the in the previous three years in fact I'd say in 205 6 and
01:09:11
seven we probably won 90% of our tests the players supported us and I had Smithy and Steve and Kono and Gilbert
01:09:21
and they supported the management team they're probably all better than me but
01:09:25
that's that's that's part of the deal you know um so the players wanted that
01:09:32
management team to continue including the coaches and I think that was probably a
01:09:38
big thing uh the game itself you know the the quarterfinal where we get beaten there was although you know I'm not
01:09:46
making excuses but there was the refereeing in that game and and was questionable let's not go any further
01:09:55
cuz it's people get very sensitive about these things um um you know so there was a few
01:10:04
few gray areas there I I was I was amazed that we were reappointed think um I went to Wellington with rayan went
01:10:13
through the interview didn't interview well we went out that night which we usually do and had a cutle of wines and
01:10:19
a nice meal and said well were we looking for something else to do back to Japan maybe or oh well you
01:10:27
know yeah and and I got you when jock hob said you've been reappointed the next morning I went to the New Zealand
01:10:34
Rugby and you couldn't knock me over with a feather but again you know from that adversity you learn and and we
01:10:42
learned we learned a lot you know we we were got ahead of ourselves we got complacent um the unexpected happened in
01:10:50
that game we learned from The Unexpected we had a we had a of policy for 211 Rugby World Cup the
01:10:59
unexpected will happen handled it and Finly enough we had some unexpected in 21 and we had um Carrie Evans coming and
01:11:09
help us so Gilbert got Carrie Evans to help us and Carrie Evans was a psychiatrist an ex New Zealand football
01:11:16
captain and a black belt in karate and he talked about he he worked with us on the mental strength side of
01:11:24
the team and those two little those two things made a massive difference to us and
01:11:31
helped us win until 11 smash the French 87 one point one huge point that um that
01:11:39
tournament that I can't imagine what that tournament was like for you because
01:11:43
it was it just felt like everything was falling apart you know I remember at the
01:11:48
beginning of the tournament there there was shots of like Aaron cruden in the grand standand drinking beer in
01:11:52
Wellington not even in the frame Steven Donald was out white baiting um Dan went
01:11:57
out injured Richie had a broken foot like oh there was incidents with like Zach and Corey Jane and um who else was
01:12:05
it I he taking like from a coach's perspective and a former Headmaster you must have be like what the hell is going
01:12:12
on around me no were the unexpected you know we had Richie with a broken metga tassel in his foot and and Deb Robinson
01:12:21
the doctor she was and the medical staff were fantastic he didn't train for a
01:12:24
month unexpected it happen to handle it and Richie and I didn't discuss his foot
01:12:30
because we'd have to make a decision so what what do you mean you didn't discuss
01:12:33
his foot we didn't discuss his foot we didn't talk about Richie's foot between
01:12:39
the two of us left it to the medical staff they said he was okay he didn't train
01:12:45
played um then we had all these injuries to the playmaker to the 58 position so Dan ripy duck the Tenon off the bone and
01:12:55
in the practice before the Canadian round robin game the last round robin game he was going to captain on the side
01:12:59
for the first time that was massive you know and he's out of the tournament I remember going into the
01:13:06
dressing shed after he'd done that and said look fellas the unexpected has happened we've we've planned for this
01:13:14
Dan's out of the tournament Colin Slade will be superb we'll go up 5% and play
01:13:20
for Dan and then Aaron cruden came in right so he wasn't in the team now who's
01:13:26
drinking beers at a pool match in Wellington well I don't want to know this I might have to walk out of this
01:13:33
interview now I don't I don't want to know what Aaron cruden was doing out of
01:13:38
the old blacks it's immaterial so he came in he came in and he was just a kid you
01:13:45
know um he still a nepes really 19yearold guy in a Rugby World Cup as the playmaker in this in the core of the
01:13:54
shots very talented Aaron very talented player good athlete but young and then Colin St gets injured in
01:14:03
the first quarterfinal in the quarterfinal goes the argentinians he's out of the tournament need to find
01:14:10
Beaver need to find Steve Donald can't find him rang a young lady who knew him knew
01:14:17
him well now his wife said where's Beaver he's white baiting Ted I'll get him to ring you Beaver
01:14:25
Rings me what are you doing white baiting how much you got eight kilos eight pounds let's be
01:14:33
correct if you bring that to the Heritage Hotel on Orland baver you can play in the final of the Rugby World
01:14:40
Cup about 3 hours later knock on the door Beaver comes in with a chili bin py whiy grabs it Cooks a white bait meal
01:14:50
for the Steam and the rest is history I've heard you so Aaron cruden gets injured in the final so he beat the
01:14:58
Australians and play well in the semi Aaron kudin gets injured in the final Beaver comes on wins the game for
01:15:05
us uh like he was he he went through hell Steve Donald yeah through PE from the from people and the media because he had
01:15:17
a he had a a poor game against Australia in Hong Kong cost us the game perhaps I love him fantastic guy bright knows
01:15:28
the game comes in um comes in on the final boys walk towards him Embrace him love him because
01:15:38
he's a great team guy and he wins the game for us kicks the winning goal plays
01:15:42
out of his skin now he's written a book had a movie made of him he'll probably
01:15:46
be the next prime minister I'd say yeah how do yeah how do you reflect on that
01:15:52
because it's like um you know just like one point in it lucky kick or whatever
01:15:58
lucky opportunity for Steven Donald to have the chance to redeem himself um but if he if he missed that kick he' still
01:16:05
be you know not respected by the New Zealand Public as you would be as well it seems
01:16:11
almost quite cynical in a way doesn't it do you know what I mean he didn't miss
01:16:15
it yeah he picked it I guess I suppose I'm thinking it had things been different well it's a very fine line
01:16:22
isn't there yeah I've got to go mate oh do you yeah um you know I think we're
01:16:26
just about done haven't we okay just just about done yeah um sorry okay oh no
01:16:31
that's right but I I just found you captivating I could have yeah talked talked for ages um in the um in the
01:16:38
Becky book you say the Rugby World Cup is the Holy Grail that's what gives you
01:16:42
peace has it given you peace oh for sure yeah like the feeling after the final walking on Eden
01:16:51
Park just you just feel at peace m and it's probably the first time in eight years you feel an absolute peace
01:16:58
because you always knows another game and another game so I I was lucky enough to coach SBS for out the three
01:17:06
tests and I'd made up my mind that that was I was 66 young I was I you had the pension
01:17:15
coming and you didn't need a job no but I felt young and I still feel youngish um but I and it was time to
01:17:23
move and I was I was so grateful for that opportunity but it it was amazing how how you feel and then
01:17:33
ran walked onto the field and you just saw the relief in her face actually this might be a photo you prepared to
01:17:41
hold yeah that's the photo yeah the relief in her face I get emotional looking at that a
01:17:50
um because you know you're married to this this wonderful lady who had got no
01:17:57
control really you know and you know we wondered if we could live in this country if we got beaten in
01:18:05
211 and uh we love New Zealand and it's our country what you and I could see what Hardy was talking
01:18:13
about um like there's a huge amount of scrutiny and I could tell you stories
01:18:17
for hours about the scrutiny and people hiding around your house and hiding under hiding behind the head trying to
01:18:25
get you know anyway let's not go there and so there's a huge amount of relief um and it's all part and parcel
01:18:37
of the job I guess shouldn't be though should it um to it agree it should well
01:18:41
some of those things shouldn't happen but you know when you're all black coach that you're going to go
01:18:48
through some some examination and some scrutiny um but you know you would change up
01:18:56
quits it's been a hell of a career and one last photo this one they say there's
01:19:01
that saying behind every great man is a great woman yeah I don't know where that's
01:19:07
been taken um but gez you You' you've married well eh you've done good I have what would
01:19:15
what would she about say about your greatest um strengths greatest flaws oh she'd probably go on about my
01:19:21
four or hours but no no I think you know we were very lucky I'm very lucky um cuz she's been so supportive
01:19:31
and know you couldn't have done it otherwise um like you go through some real challenges and we mentioned the
01:19:39
depression after the lines to her um H I've got so much you know so much respect and
01:19:48
gratitude and now it's 54 years Inc incredible and I I see you guys around I see you guys around you're
01:19:56
holding hands you're drinking wine um you're laughing it's um I I mean it's
01:20:02
inspirational like in terms of a partnership it's a couple goals um you know I
01:20:07
remember before the 211 final I went home on the Saturday night it was a Sunday game M I think I'm
01:20:16
right and I couldn't do nothing in the pub you right just sitting there festering waiting for the game mhm
01:20:25
and we we were living in some helas and we walked around the Waterfront because I always walk before the game it relaxes
01:20:32
me mhm well it's meant to relax me so you're just doing exercise make you feel
01:20:38
good pass some time and walking past people and they're looking at me thinking what's he doing out here why
01:20:45
isn't he with the O blacks and uh I mean we work for walk for three and a half hours before I came
01:20:52
in Wellington once it's just what you did you know we have a chat and catch up
01:20:57
because you you're away all week you might have been away for weeks and just
01:21:02
nice to be able to chat and talk to your mate you know about other things rather
01:21:08
than rugby take your mind off it for a while uh no I I can't I can't speak hardly enough
01:21:17
she is your mate she's your best mate eh correct yeah hey Ted Su gr Henry thank
01:21:23
you so much for your time um I really appreciate it and um yeah yeah just thanks thanks for everything
01:21:29
you've done for New Zealand Rugby and just thanks for being a just a just a good man oh I I feel very fortunate that
01:21:36
had that opportunity thank you