00:00:00
3:00 in the morning, the cell door slams open. Pull down your jocks and squats in
00:00:05
front of another man. >> Who is Baris Sha? >> I changed my name after coming out of
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prison. >> Most painful memories, the abuse that I faced as a child. I wasn't able to tell
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anybody. Started off us getting called in a school bush with the cross. We decided that we were going to rob a
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dairy. >> Do you tell your parents the day before I go to prison? The first time I saw him
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tearing up absolute lowest. I really felt like I was going to two young people who I had the privilege of
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mentoring taken away just like that. >> Sha, welcome to my podcast. Good to be
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here, Dom, >> mate. It's great to have you here. You reached out to me a few weeks ago and um
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invited yourself on and I I have to say, full transparency, I I didn't know who
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you were. I hadn't heard of you. I looked you up and I thought, "Oh, yeah.
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This guy's on for sure." >> Look, I've learned that you got to
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market yourself. You know what I mean? Like, if you want to have conversations with the right people, just reach out.
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>> And I met you. We didn't actually have a conversation, but in James's high
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performance leadership um conference. >> Yeah. James Lachland, previous podcast
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guest. >> Yeah. Yeah. And previous to that, I didn't actually know you as well, but
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when you came on and you spoke, I really felt the authenticity in you, the way you carried yourself. So, I was like, it
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would be pretty cool to have a conversation with you. And because I'm visiting Oakland, so it is what it is
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now. We're here. >> I appreciate you reaching out. I think this is going to be a fun chat. Um
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there's there's a lot that you've been through and a lot of lessons that um
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other people can use for their own lives. >> First of all, who is Baris Sha?
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>> Baris Sha actually is um Taib Sha. That's actually my maiden name. I
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changed my name after coming out of prison. So at the moment, who am I? I am a Muslim that is wanting to live a life
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with intention and with purpose and be the most impactful person that I can be. That's who worries us.
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>> Well, I think the results um speak for themselves. You are doing that. Um you
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you were named the 2021 Muslim New Zealander of the year. >> Yeah. >> Um some other things about you. Yeah.
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You you're a married man with two sons. Uh your wife Sabah. This was sort of
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like an arranged marriage, right? You said to your mom, "I'm ready to get
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married." >> She picked up the phone. >> It can seem arranged, but you know, I
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really just wanted somebody that I could be compatible with, right? And my mom knows me the best. So I was like, "Look,
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do you have anybody in mind that I could speak to and see if we can make things work?" And my mom was like, "You know
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what? How about Sabah?" We had a conversation for about 4 months and it was very like,
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>> "Did you know her? Had you had you meet her?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Previously in my
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sister's wedding when I went back to um Pakistan, but our conversation was very
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restrictive like you know because we didn't want to break the Islamic boundaries. Um, so it was just like
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literally what do you see for your uh your life, your future? Um, what kind of a family do you want to raise? That type
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of dynamic. And uh, we saw that on the whole we aligned really well. So like, you know what, let's do it.
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>> And it's been the one of the best decisions I ever made if I'm being
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honest. >> Was she was Sabah reluctant to enter in a relationship with you knowing about
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your bad boy past? >> I had to be full transparent. So I told her actually on my on my phone first
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phone call I was like look this is how it is. This is where I'm wanting to go.
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Do you want to be on this journey with me? And she appreciated the honesty. Usually if people are getting married
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and Afghanistan they they leave all the bad stuff out you know. Um but she actually also made me a promise that we
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wouldn't stay in New Zealand forever. She was like yes I'll come to New Zealand but we can't stay in New Zealand
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forever. Let's go. Let's keep traveling. So, um, I made that agreement and, uh,
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we got married in 2017. It was crazy. >> Fantastic. >> I'm 21 years old.
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>> You were just ready though. >> Yeah, I was ready. I knew I knew it. I
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was just finished my first year of uni. And it's crazy to people because in uni
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when you finish your first year, you know, you're meant to have fun and go out and get drunk and do everything.
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>> But for me, because I had already gone through that and then went to prison and
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come out, I was in a complete different state of mind at the age of 21. So, got married and um yeah, man, life's been
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great. >> Yeah. How how the man sitting in front of me today, how close is he to being
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the best version of himself? >> Look, I'm I'm hard on myself. I'm never
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satisfied and there's so much things that I can improve on. But the one thing
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that I do appreciate about myself is that I'm trying and I'm intentional in
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my efforts. uh if I do something wrong that I'm not happy with, I internalize
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it and say, "Look, I I shouldn't be doing that." So that I'm happy with
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that. And I discovered that in prison that being intentional with things. I didn't have it previously. I was just
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going through life just, you know, letting life just happen to me without really being intentional. So
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>> it's it's good to have that awareness, you know. >> Yeah. I think I think a lot of people
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just go through life like that. Let Yeah. the the way you phrased it just before letting life happen to them. I
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think a lot of people just live live their life like that. >> Yeah. And it's tough, man. It's tough
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because life is hard. And if you just let it happen to you, you're going to struggle, man. You're going to struggle.
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And I was struggling before going to prison um like just really down in the dumps. And um coming out, it feels like
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I'm a complete different person. That's why I changed my name. >> Um I adopted Barz. And um yeah, man. M
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>> yeah you've mentioned prison um maybe three, four, five times already and it
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is it is um part of your story and uh we will get into that but yeah we're recording this in November 2025 so it
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was probably close to this time 10 years ago that you were just getting released.
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>> Yeah. Yeah, man. >> Do you remember the date? >> Yeah, 100%. 10th 10th of uh June 2025 uh
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2015 I was released, >> right? >> And came out came out into the world
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wondering if I was ever going to redeem myself, you know, because society doesn't really accept people that go to
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prison. They don't. I know people say, "Oh, no. Society gives you a fair chance
00:06:06
this and that." But on the whole, society does not accept people that have been to prison. That
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stain that they have on them can never be taken away. >> That's the current law that we have.
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>> Just like in in terms of judgment. >> Yeah. In terms of the law as well, like
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you can never have your record cleared. If you've been to prison as a young person at the age of 18, let's say you
00:06:29
go into prison, your first time in prison, you come out, you've changed yourself. Society will never accept you.
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You can never have your record cleared. You have to declare it every time. M >> and I think that's a huge problem in our
00:06:40
society right now. >> Um I actually didn't know that though. I was told by a officer that if you come
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out of prison and you prove yourself in 7 years time you can have your record cleared. So I came out of prison with
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that hope like okay I'm going to I'm going to prove myself and I'm going to
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get my record cleared. But that's actually not the case. >> Does your past still hold you back or
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>> for me? special case because I came out of prison, went back into uni, I was did
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my foundation engineering course, um went into university and in university because they take your money because
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they take your money, they don't care about your path, right? Um it's not like
00:07:18
they're giving you a job. So I went into uni, spent a couple of years and while I
00:07:22
was at uni, I was like proving myself, you know, I was doing community work, getting involved and then March 15
00:07:28
happened which was a pivotal moment in my life. So, I was able to kind of like make a brand for myself. So, when I'm
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applying in jobs now, it's a I think it's easier for me compared to somebody
00:07:39
else who hasn't gone through that experience and they're just trying to get a job.
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>> 100% it's not going to be easy for them. >> Yeah. Also, I think there's probably
00:07:50
enough daylight now. Like, it's been 10 years since you were released. Um, so
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you did your time and you've done so much good stuff since then. >> Yeah. But the crazy thing is, right,
00:07:59
like you would think that that people will be accepting me and my wife, we we travel to Australia.
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>> I have my two kids with me. Okay, I have my book. I've written a book.
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I've got my book with me >> and I'm like going and I'm going to see
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the immigration officer and I'm going to say, "Look, I've changed. Can I get into
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Australia now?" I was going with that hope. They took my two kids and my wife aside,
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gave them entry, took me to the back room, told me, "You've checked, yes, you have
00:08:30
a criminal conviction on the form. We're going to send you back on the first
00:08:33
flight back." And I was like, "Look, like I've changed so much." I started
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stating everything. >> They didn't want to hear it, man. It was like, "This is the system. We're just
00:08:42
following the system. We don't care what you've done. We don't care if you've
00:08:44
proven yourself or not." And I think that's one of the biggest problems that
00:08:48
we have in our society. It's like we follow systems to the tea and we don't
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look like wait has can we look at things a little bit differently and we're seeing like crime rising and
00:09:02
people complaining about crime and the amount of money the government spends on trying to prevent crime but yet we don't
00:09:10
give people hope >> and we expecting them to change their life around. So,
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I'm trying to actually tackle that with my wife where our second project is going to be creating a documentary film
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that will go into the lives of people who have been affected by the justice system
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>> and how not having hope where that leads to, you know, how much impact it's going
00:09:32
to have in society and so on. >> That incident there that you talked about just a second ago with um
00:09:36
Australian immigration, what happened? Did did you come home and your family traveled on?
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>> Yeah, man. My my kids went into the, you know, terminal. My son was crying. I was
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in the back room. I video called them and said, "Look, dad's going away. He's
00:09:50
going to come back." It was tough, man. My wife, it's difficult for her as well.
00:09:55
Um, I don't think I'll be able to go back into Australia and just because I ticked yes on a on a
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form, >> like every other condition they say for good character, I met, but because of
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that one box, that one tick box, I couldn't tick. Mhm. >> They're like, "No."
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>> Well, what other countries do you struggle to travel to? >> Australia was the first one.
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>> Okay. >> Um I don't think I'll have problem any of the Middle Eastern countries, but
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like like Canada and and America and UK probably the same cuz they're all sharing their information.
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>> Yeah. >> Well, it's a hell of a story. Um so we'll build into it, but I I think we
00:10:30
should first go back to the beginning. So um from what I can gather there's mixed information online but you're born
00:10:35
in Afghanistan >> moved to fled to Pakistan >> uh then moved to New Zealand at 9.
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>> Yeah. >> What are your happiest and most painful memories of the early years
00:10:46
>> of Pakistan? >> Pak Afghanistan Pakistan. >> Um Pakistan were there as refugees right?
00:10:56
Um, and as refugees in Pakistan, you were never given identity. Like you could not
00:11:04
uh have a passport ever. And so knowing that as a young person and and my family
00:11:09
knowing that we knew we didn't have a future there. Um, we would often get into fights with the
00:11:16
the Pakistani kids because they would keep calling us refugees, refugees. Um, my brother and I would get into a lot of
00:11:23
fights. And probably the most distinct memory of my childhood would have to be the abuse that I faced as a child. That
00:11:31
would probably trump everything else. Um, that's what I remember from Pakistan. Yeah.
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>> Oh, sorry you experienced that. >> That's all good, man. I've I've I've uh
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I've moved past it. I've >> Yeah. >> I've um >> I've moved past it. Yeah.
00:11:50
>> Yeah. >> How did you move past it? Is it therapy or >> No. No, I've never done therapy. just
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forgiveness because the thing is the and again this was in prison and after coming out of prison and having a child
00:12:04
I was expecting forgiveness from others right like I had done wrong to other people like I had done
00:12:10
>> wrong that others don't even know about and I was wanting forgiveness from them
00:12:15
from God and I was like if I'm asking for forgiveness from others like how can
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I not forgive myself so I forgave my abuser Um, and it's a crazy story. I went back to
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Afghanistan and it's in the book as well. I talk about it, but ultimately I I forgave. And when you forgive, you let
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go and the weight is off your shoulders. >> Um, so I can happily say that I don't
00:12:40
carry that anymore. In the past before forgiveness, >> I used to think about the abuse like
00:12:45
multiple times a week. >> You know, people would say things and it would trigger. People would say things.
00:12:49
But once I forgave and I let go, alhamdulillah, it's all good. >> It's a lot. It's a lot to deal with,
00:12:57
bro, bro. I mean, it's with with with everything you you went through. Um, uh,
00:13:02
it's easy to see like how you went off the rails, right? It's easy to understand.
00:13:06
>> Yeah. >> I've got this this photo here of you and your family.
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>> Yeah. Where was that? Was that in Afghanistan? >> That's in Pakistan. Actually, we went on
00:13:15
like a family road trip. >> Yeah. So, who where are you? Which one are you? I'm this handsome one at the
00:13:20
bottom. >> Best looking one. >> Yeah. So, when when you see that photo
00:13:25
like how what memories come back? Like how do you feel? >> Man, the attachment that I had to my
00:13:30
father that comes um the the attachment that I had to my mother and how I didn't want her to leave me
00:13:40
every morning. Um because she would go off and she would be working as a humanitarian. She
00:13:47
would help other refugee women and she'd have to leave me right at the child. As
00:13:52
a child, I didn't understand. So, I would stay home with my grandma and because my grandma me and her
00:13:58
relationship wasn't great. I wasn't able to share with her and she had gone
00:14:01
through difficulties of in life herself. I would get abused from somebody that would come to our house from time to
00:14:08
time and I wasn't able to tell anybody, you know. So that's what I remember like
00:14:12
not being able to voice >> what was happening to me because of the lack of trust I felt not only with my
00:14:18
grandma with with my mother and father as well >> because I was afraid of you know it
00:14:24
being my fault. Um, and so I carry that man. And this like I noticed this in prison so many times
00:14:33
people that that have had these kind of childhood experiences and they're trying to figure their life
00:14:39
out and they can't and they end up in prison and they get stuck in the cycle
00:14:44
and it just goes down rail for them. So I'm I'm super blessed to be here right
00:14:48
now >> to have changed myself to have let go of the victim mindset. Um, honestly like I
00:14:56
I am so grateful man. I'm so grateful for everything in my life. So grateful.
00:15:03
>> Do you feel more Afghani, Pakistani or Kiwi right now? >> That's a really good question. Is it
00:15:09
>> to be honest now? Right now I feel more New Zealander. >> I'll be honest. Um, I do have a
00:15:16
connection with New Zealand. It's difficult because like I go places, right? And I'm just trying to be QZ.
00:15:23
Like I'm in a cafe. I've got my laptop on. I've got my headphones trying to do my work. And this guy next
00:15:30
to me looks at me. He's like, "Hey, man. Where are you from?" And and when they
00:15:33
ask you, they put on like a almost like a dumb down English. I'm like, "Why are
00:15:38
you speaking to me like that? Just speak normal, man." And he's like, "So, where
00:15:43
you from, man?" I'm like, and I know where the where the question is going to
00:15:47
lead, so I just go straight to the end. I'm like, I'm from Afghanistan. And he's
00:15:51
like, oh, okay, how long you been here? And then this the whole chat, but I don't feel like I'm from Afghanistan.
00:15:57
You know, when I go to Afghanistan, it's like, yeah, kind of feel similar, but I
00:16:01
don't feel like I'm from there. >> I would say I'm New Zealander, man.
00:16:04
>> Yeah. Well, most Yeah. Most of your life has been here, so that's understandable.
00:16:08
>> My identity is attached to here now. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. What are your memories of
00:16:12
moving to New Zealand at 9? Did you speak any English at that point? >> I was seven. I I did not speak English.
00:16:17
we were ABCing it at that time. Um I was in a Pakistani school so I knew how to speak udu really well
00:16:25
>> and Farsy as well but no I did not know when I came actually and they put me in
00:16:29
year one with all the with all the kids >> the 5-year-olds. >> Yeah, man. And I came and I was like nap
00:16:36
time like they used to do nap time. I was like yo like like what you can sleep in class? We used to get the hiding.
00:16:45
You couldn't put your head down on the table and they're like, "It's nap time
00:16:48
everybody." And obviously with me, I came in to school and I didn't have
00:16:52
friends and stuff. I'll just when nap time would be over, I'll just keep keep
00:16:55
napping. >> It got to a point where they're like, "Okay, this kid's too big for this
00:16:59
class. Even if he doesn't know English, let's just take him to to year two." So So
00:17:05
they changed my class. >> So you you moved here as a family, but without your dad. your dad stayed behind
00:17:11
for another four years. So, with that family photo I showed you before, like you talked about your attachment to your
00:17:17
dad. So, >> I'm guessing it must been a strange feeling because I suppose on on one side
00:17:22
like you you you're moving as far away as imaginable from your abuser, which is
00:17:26
a great thing. Um, but you're also, you know, losing your dad for a time. >> Yeah, it wasn't easy, man. came winter
00:17:32
of New Zealand, August 2021 uh 2020 2001 and uh it was raining, the streets were
00:17:41
empty, there not many people around and uh it felt really lonely, you know, initially. So I missed my dad quite a
00:17:48
lot, but as a young person, you get over it, you know. >> Um you don't think about it as often. We
00:17:54
would call him every day and then it got to every week and then it got to once a
00:17:58
month and then we didn't talk much until he came in 2005. >> What did you know about New Zealand?
00:18:05
>> Nothing at all. We we actually we actually thought it was in London. Like
00:18:10
when we're thinking of New Zealand because we when we when we're over there, we imagine we means like the
00:18:17
outside or like um yeah, we're thinking of the west as all being in London. So
00:18:24
when we said we're going to we're like yo, that's where we're going. And so we
00:18:28
came here, we're a little bit deflated at the start, but you start to fall in
00:18:32
love with New Zealand and its beauty. >> Yeah. So you moved here in 2001, the
00:18:36
year of the um 9/11 um Twin Towers, >> a month before. >> What did that look like for a young
00:18:43
Muslim boy? >> Initially, I didn't know much about it because I was too young to understand,
00:18:48
right? Um it started off us getting called Osam Bin Laden as school started to get a little bit harsher and harsher.
00:18:55
My sisters would get um you know, cuz they wear the headscarf, so they're visible Muslims, they would get taunted
00:19:01
and stuff. Um, and then it wasn't up until year 8 when I started becoming aware of the world and I started seeing
00:19:11
the news and how Afghanistan was being bombed and drone strike, villages, innocent people being killed. But on
00:19:19
this side of the world, it was being framed as Afghans are the bad people. But when
00:19:25
we're hearing stories from back home, it's like, wait, people are innocent
00:19:28
people are getting killed. But that wasn't being told here. So when I was seeing this almost hypocrisy, I I
00:19:35
started to build up resentment. And I'll go into the school toilets and I'll tag
00:19:39
like [ __ ] Bush with the crosshairs. Classic, you know, with the crosshairs. >> Crosshairs like a gun side.
00:19:47
>> There he is. >> Oh my god. Like >> I was year eight, man. So like what,
00:19:52
like 10, maybe 11. Um, and I was doing that every single uh lunchtime. I was just trying to vent. Trying to vent. So
00:19:59
at this sort of age, uh, a little bit older than that, older that little, yeah, a little kid, slightly bigger than
00:20:06
that, tagging [ __ ] George W. B. >> Um, >> and I got caught obviously. I got
00:20:13
raided. My my desk got raided. They found foul tips and everything >> and I got suspended.
00:20:19
>> The principal never asked. And again, this I see this as an issue like we
00:20:22
don't dig deeper. We don't scratch the surface. We just because it's easier to just be like,
00:20:29
"Okay, that's how it is." Yep. Put them into that compartment, you know? They
00:20:33
just suspended me. Didn't ask why a young person was tagging political, you know, things on a toilet. Um, so
00:20:42
nobody caught it out. And then I went into high school. Then you start seeing skin heads out on the street with like
00:20:49
doing the seek hell sign and trying to run you over. And then that became our reality for me and my friends. And it
00:20:55
was like a survival um game. Like we'd go out into the streets after school and we'd see these
00:21:01
guys from another college and like axes would come out and like would get into fights in different regions and it it
00:21:09
was very um intense, man. It's very intense. >> Who who tried to help? Was it like
00:21:15
family, teachers, siblings, mentors? Was there anyone there on your team? Like obviously mom was the biggest
00:21:23
person on my team, but because she came from another culture, she didn't really
00:21:27
understand what we were going through. Like I couldn't tell her like, "Look,
00:21:30
we're getting chased by skin heads." She'll be like, "What are you talking
00:21:32
about? What skin hits?" She wouldn't understand. >> Um like have the identity issues that I
00:21:39
was having at school, not feeling like I fit in into the crowd. Um people didn't really understand it. But
00:21:46
I I went and saw counselors, but they didn't really get it as well. Um, and I
00:21:50
was also I was also a little bit of a little [ __ ] you know. >> Um, thinking that the world revolved
00:21:57
around me and what I was going through and feeling sad about my story and being a victim of my situation, that all had
00:22:04
to a part to play in it. >> So the the so the sort of the racism and that sort of abuse is like a daily
00:22:13
occurrence. >> 100%. >> Yeah. really% it was daily. Yeah. Especially with that group of people and
00:22:21
would get into fights multiple times. It get to a got to a point where one of our
00:22:25
friends got severely jumped after school and then we're like okay enough's
00:22:29
enough. I told one of my friends get the school uniform for the school that these
00:22:34
people are at and we're going to go into their school time and go into their
00:22:38
classroom and settle this once and for all cuz we would never come across each other properly. Uh, we got the school
00:22:45
uniforms on a like a school day. I I didn't go to my school. We wore the uniform, went inside the school during
00:22:52
school time. We entered the classroom and and beat one of the guys up there kind of like their leader. And after
00:22:58
that, it it kind of died down. Um, oh, I heard about this. This was massive. So,
00:23:03
there were police helicopters and >> it was like news. It was crazy. It was
00:23:08
crazy. We all got lined up like handcuffed and we're all like 14. Um it was pretty intense. Yeah. But at
00:23:15
that age you feel quite proud of yourself, right? Cuz you're living like the movie life and we're watching like
00:23:21
Blood and Blood Out at that time. Have you seen Blood and Blood Out? >> No.
00:23:25
Action really? >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like all the street kids would know about it. Um we're
00:23:30
influenced heavily by Blood and Blood Out. So it's like we're living out
00:23:34
>> the the film, you know. >> So you think it's kind of cool in a way?
00:23:37
>> It was at that time. Yeah. Yeah, I was. >> But by by this point, your dad's in New
00:23:40
Zealand. Um, >> yeah. But being being like a Muslim teenage boy, well, I mean, when you're with your
00:23:48
mates, you think it's kind of cool, kind of badass, but then you have to go home
00:23:51
and tell your parents or do the cops drop you off at home or >> 100%. >> Yeah. And then what? Are you in big
00:23:56
trouble? >> Yeah. Like my father, when I explained the whole thing to him, like, look,
00:24:00
we're people are being racist towards us and they jumped our friend and so we
00:24:05
went to defend our friend. He was like, "Why did you go into the school? Like,
00:24:09
you should have just settled it outside of school." I don't know if that's the correct
00:24:13
answer, but honestly, I think that's the right answer. It's like why would you go
00:24:19
inside the class? Like, don't disturb others. But, yeah, I was sort of thinking it' be
00:24:24
like son, violence is never the answer. Like, go and talk to a teacher or >> that my father is a bit of a
00:24:31
revolutionary, so I think he that's the right response from him. Was was that
00:24:35
incidentally your first um encounter with the New Zealand police? >> Before that, we were doing like
00:24:42
shoplifting and stuff. Um that's where it started like shoplifting, trying to
00:24:47
get clothes to to look cool because we didn't have the money to buy it. >> Um
00:24:53
like would get police would come to the mall and then you'll just get a slap on
00:24:58
the wrist and you'll get let go. But that was the proper getting arrested, taken to the police station, investig um
00:25:04
interrogated and so on. >> Yeah. >> With with the benefit of hindsight and
00:25:10
you're in a really good good healthy um place now as a as a a man. >> Why do you think you're acting out so
00:25:16
badly? Were your siblings acting out as well or >> No, my sisters were all good.
00:25:21
>> Yeah. Um my brother started going through difficulties himself and me and
00:25:26
him kind of split up because we used to have be really close during childhood and then it came to a point where we
00:25:31
started distancing ourself. I went down my own path and he went down his own path and he was having challenges
00:25:36
himself not similar to mine. Um but no I think it was just really me. I was really affected by the unfairness of the
00:25:46
world and I took it on board. >> And I was like, screw this, you know. Um, I'm going to live for me. Shit's not
00:25:56
fair anyway, so I'm just going to live for me. >> M. >> And I was doing that for a little while
00:25:59
and it doesn't work out. You >> When did you hold up a dairy with a knife? Was that was that before the
00:26:06
>> That was after the undercover Lynwood incident or after that? >> No, that was after. So your your
00:26:11
behavior was escalating. Eh, >> it was it was getting worse and worse and your tolerance level builds up,
00:26:16
right? So, you're able to do more harsher things. And um a rave was coming up and I hate to say this, but a rave
00:26:24
was coming up and we didn't have money to buy the drugs that we wanted. And uh
00:26:28
so we decided that we're going to rob a dairy and it was the first dairy and
00:26:35
I've actually put money in an envelope and secretly sent it to those dairies
00:26:39
that we robbed uh now. And I hope it's the same owners that got that money. Um,
00:26:46
I made sure not to have my fingerprints on the um on the envelope so it doesn't
00:26:51
come back to me. But yeah, man, it was horrible. Like you didn't have a care
00:26:56
for others, you know? >> And when you live that way, like all bets are off. And if I'm being honest,
00:27:03
like if it wasn't for my faith, I wouldn't have changed. Like why why should I change? cuz everything else
00:27:11
tells me that life's about me and how I should live and >> like I shouldn't care about others,
00:27:17
right? >> So, yeah, man. I'm just happy to to have found my faith. >> Yeah. Did you Did you get caught for
00:27:24
that or No, you got away with it. >> No. Yeah. >> Um Yeah. Can you remember the look in the
00:27:30
in the dairy owner's eyes? Initially it was like he like laughed almost. Um and then I Yeah.
00:27:45
And then I like I made sure I screamed that uh he would understand that it's
00:27:51
you know happening. >> And then it changed and they came into a state of shock. And I feel bad, man,
00:27:57
because they're just people working feed their family and these little shits come
00:28:02
and try and take it from you. But >> yeah, man. >> Yeah, they work they hurt dairy owners.
00:28:11
It's It makes me so sad whenever there's a story in the news about a dairy being
00:28:15
attacked. Like the mar they work so hard and the margins are so small. >> Yeah. How how like you're you're you're
00:28:21
a great man now, but yeah. How does it sit with you knowing that um you're the
00:28:25
villain in someone else's story and you will probably be for life? >> That's probably the those dairies that
00:28:31
we robbed probably would have to be the worst things that I think I have done >> and it's something that I'll never be
00:28:38
forgiven for and I've made amends with that. >> Um and I'm trying to do as much good as
00:28:46
possible to try and counterbalance that, you know. >> Um but it's something that I can't
00:28:51
change, man. I was young. I was >> Yeah. not in a good place. >> I mean, the best thing you can do for
00:28:57
your victims is to, you know, live a life of purpose. >> Yeah. >> I think
00:29:01
>> which is what you're doing now. You said you sent send sent money back to them.
00:29:04
Did you think have you thought about going in and saying, "Hey, listen. Look,
00:29:07
I was that kid and I'm really [ __ ] sorry. >> I'm afraid that they're going to be
00:29:11
like, "We've got you now, finally." And I'm going back into prison. I don't
00:29:18
think it's the best move. Okay. Yeah, maybe you got a point. Okay, fair play.
00:29:22
Fair play. Sorry, I didn't think that you've thought that one through. I
00:29:25
haven't thought that through. Was it about this time that you started um um your door to door weed delivery?
00:29:32
>> Oh, what was your drug of choice? You said you wanted money from the dairy to
00:29:35
buy drugs for a rave. What were you into? >> Um >> was it like meth or pills or?
00:29:39
>> Yep, just pills, you know, at that age. Um >> MDMA pills. >> MDMA. Yeah, that was the thing back
00:29:45
then. um started selling drugs when I was expelled from three high schools. Um I was like look like it's not much
00:29:55
else I can do. I went and got a job as a as a salesman as a front for my family.
00:30:01
Like I actually went and bought a suit as well and I'll tell my family, look,
00:30:05
I've got this job I'm going to and they would think I'm literally going to do
00:30:09
doorto-d dooror sales job selling a vacuum air refresher, but I was actually um selling drugs.
00:30:16
Uh and I think I was the only one doing door to door sales at that time if I'm
00:30:19
being honest. Um others would meet people at a park. I would like meet people right outside their house and it
00:30:25
went really well cuz what year was this? I don't want to get myself in trouble,
00:30:30
but like 2010, 2011, 2012. >> So this is probably at the peak of tiny houses in New Zealand.
00:30:37
>> 100%. >> Um, wow. So that was really innovative. You had quite the entrepreneurial uh
00:30:41
ability. So yeah, what were you selling like like ounce bags, 50 bags, tinies? >> It started off so I my started off with
00:30:49
buying a half ounce and then literally a couple of days later I went on to get an
00:30:53
ounce and the guy I was getting it off with became super impressed. So me and him built a good relationship and he'll
00:30:59
just and they got to a point where I us selling a couple of pounds a week um selling other people ounces so they
00:31:05
could go sell to other people. Um look I feel bad talking about it and like in our faith we're told not to talk about
00:31:12
our sins. Um yeah alhamdulillah. >> Okay. Yeah. Is it hard? Is it painful to
00:31:19
talk about this stuff? >> Yeah. Cuz you're not meant to expose your sins, right? Because if you expose
00:31:24
your sins, then you can't be directly forgiven by it because you've told to
00:31:28
other people. But >> um I do say it in a way to raise awareness about how uh shitty someone's life can be and how
00:31:36
lost they can be and where they can >> how far they can come. >> So it's kind of you have to share that
00:31:42
part or else it wouldn't make sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. So the the the reason I'm
00:31:46
I'm talking about this stuff, it's sort of like building building painting a
00:31:48
picture and you building a a story of like how how low you were before you managed to climb your way up to where
00:31:54
you are now, which is >> an inspirational position, I think. >> Um >> Yeah. Okay. Last one on that. Yeah. What
00:32:01
were you making on a good week? >> Couple of thousand. >> For a young person, like 16. For a young
00:32:06
person, couple of thousand. >> Uh >> your parents must have known him or
00:32:11
something. >> My father, my brother was like, "Where'd you get that car?" I was like, "It's my
00:32:14
friend's car. You let me let me borrow it." "Where'd you get the clothes from?"
00:32:18
Uh, you know, my friends let me borrow it. >> They knew something was up, but they
00:32:22
just couldn't put their finger on it cuz I was super discreet. >> Yeah.
00:32:27
>> Um, but the worst of it came when like I was making all this money. I still
00:32:33
wasn't feeling satisfied with myself. I felt empty and and lost and I was taking
00:32:37
more drugs and more drugs. And it got to a point where I was having a bad trip off some mushrooms
00:32:45
and I really felt like I was going to die. And I went to the safest place that I could find was my parents bedroom on a
00:32:52
Tuesday morning. I went under the covers and I went into the fetal position and and I'm like 17 at that time. And I
00:33:01
honestly thought I was going to die. I threw up next to the bed and I knocked out fell asleep. And when I woke up, I
00:33:07
was like, "No, this is it, man." Like, I don't want to continue this. Like, this
00:33:11
is rubbish. So, I took a flight the next day, traveled to Afghanistan, and had some experiences that really changed my
00:33:18
perspective. >> Yeah. >> But you didn't get caught for any of any
00:33:24
of this stuff. This isn't why you ended up in um Spring Hill Correctional Facility.
00:33:28
>> So, with with the weed stuff, like every time you pulled up to a house, were you
00:33:33
were you nervous that it was going to be a setup? >> No. No, >> I would make sure that I would do like a
00:33:38
drive by first of the house. >> There were a few instances where I did see that this was a setup. Um especially
00:33:44
when I was selling like pounds. >> I saw that especially around the point Chev area. Um like I'd get called out to
00:33:51
a car park and I'd be like, "Okay, this is sus. This isn't a normal customer,
00:33:54
you know." So I'd make sure to drive past, not tell the person what my car
00:33:57
looked like to see if there's any people, how many people. Um and a lot of the times I actually would sell in
00:34:03
petrol stations. like I'll tell the guy, "Come into the petrol station, hop into
00:34:06
my car, and that way there's cameras everywhere. They can't really act too
00:34:09
violently." Um, and that seemed to work. But I started also getting calls from like
00:34:17
the big gangs, you know, cuz they started realizing that some of their customers would come to me in their
00:34:22
area, right? And I would get calls from my known number saying, "We'll come and
00:34:26
knock down your door and we know where you live." And they'll give me my
00:34:29
address as well. And so I realized like it's not going to work out for me to be in this life cuz
00:34:36
that's not who I am, man. I'm not some like patch member, you know what I mean?
00:34:39
I'm just trying to make some money. >> So um yeah, I travel to Afghanistan.
00:34:46
>> What What were you chasing? Like was it acceptance, excitement, escape?
00:34:53
>> All three, man. Like acceptance 100%. I always felt like I didn't belong and
00:34:59
wasn't really the cool kid in intermediate and high school. I was the cool kid in primary school. Um but as I
00:35:05
went off the rails, I wasn't the cool kid anymore. So I was almost like a lone
00:35:09
wolf most of the time. Um excitement as well. You're a young person. You're wanting to live out what you see
00:35:16
on music videos and TV. Um and then what was the last one? >> Escape. Escape 100%. the emptiness that
00:35:24
I felt cuz none of these things was fulfilling me. >> So, I was just getting deeper and deeper
00:35:30
into the hole of trying to search and find what could make me feel less empty. >> Um, and it wasn't until I found my faith
00:35:36
that that emptiness was completely full. >> So, you mentioned before that um um the
00:35:42
hallucinogenic incident with um the mushrooms and the bad trip and then then you you return home to rediscover your
00:35:49
faith. But is it after you return to New Zealand that that you get in the trouble
00:35:53
that ultimately saw you incarcerated? >> Yeah. So when I when I left New Zealand
00:35:58
after the um overdose experience, >> I went into Afghanistan and I was having
00:36:04
a cigarette in the side of a canal. Um and I saw these kids like going into the winter of Kabul. There's snow
00:36:12
everywhere. They go into the canal. Dirty canal, man. Like dirty. And they're going and collecting bottles.
00:36:18
One dude drops in and he's throwing bottle. These guys are like 10 years old, man. Throwing bottles outside and
00:36:23
they're collecting the bottles and they'll go from canal to canal, get as much plastic as possible and then
00:36:29
they go sell it for a few dollars. And I saw the guy and he had a huge smile on his face and he was proud of what he was
00:36:34
doing. He was feeding for his family after going to school. And I spoke to him like, "Look, would you do this if I
00:36:42
give you money? Like if I was to give you more money, would you do this again? Would you come back here tomorrow?" And
00:36:46
he said, "Yeah, I will, man. cuz if I don't come back tomorrow, I'm not going
00:36:48
to feel like coming back the next day and I have to provide for my family. And I could see the dignity that that person
00:36:53
had. Um, and I almost felt jealous, you know. And another incident, young people again, I
00:37:02
meet these three kids. They're shining shoes. It's like super cheap to get your shoes
00:37:08
shined. I gave them my shoes. The guy shining my shoes. 10-year-old again. I asked him like, "Do your friends shine
00:37:13
shoes as well at school?" He's like after school some of them shine shoes
00:37:17
but some of them go up on that mountain they pointed at to a hill in the city and they sell themselves for money
00:37:25
and when I hear that as a person who's got himself into a victim mindset coming
00:37:30
from a very privileged background New Zealand we're all privileged here I don't care what anybody tells me we're
00:37:35
so privileged to live in this country >> it was like a slap on my face >> it was the realization I needed like man
00:37:41
you've got so much going for you [ __ ] quit with this [ __ ] stuff, you know,
00:37:46
with this victim mindset. Go out and make something. So, I came back to New Zealand with a different mindset, like,
00:37:51
okay, I'm going to use the opportunities that I have, but I still had my bad
00:37:55
habits. Hung around with some of the friends that I shouldn't have hung around with. Um, they got caught for
00:38:02
something that they did and I was with them >> even though I had told them, "Look, I
00:38:05
don't want anything to do with this. I don't want anything." They got caught
00:38:09
and um and I was okay going to prison. Like the police officer told me, "Look,
00:38:15
if you rat out your friends because you're not involved in this, if you rat out your friends, you'll be let off."
00:38:22
Like, "I can't do that." Um part of it was because I secretly wanted to be
00:38:27
taken away from society and make amends for the wrong that I had committed that nobody nobody knew about. So, I was okay
00:38:34
with going to prison. Um and at the age of 18 I was sentenced to 3 years and 2 months and
00:38:40
>> I went into Oakland prison. So that was for um aggravated robbery and kidnapping, which sounds sounds really I
00:38:48
I don't want to like I don't want to like minimize what you did because for
00:38:51
the um the the guy involved, I'm sure it was like a terrifying experience, but
00:38:55
>> it it does sound worse than >> like when you when you break it down, it
00:38:59
was like a you ripped someone off on Facebook Marketplace. Really? E the group that I was with, they they sorted
00:39:05
someone out. They said they want to buy something off him. He came into the car.
00:39:09
They had the child lock the child lock on. he couldn't get out. Um, and they
00:39:14
basically told him like, "Give us your laptop." There wasn't any violence
00:39:17
involved. There wasn't any like punching or kicking. Um, there was a bit of shouting, but because the individual was
00:39:25
16 and we were 17, 18, I think that's why they took it serious. Um, and I'm
00:39:32
glad, man. I'm glad that happened. Honestly, I don't personally think going to prison is a bad thing. if you
00:39:41
go in with the right mindset. >> Yeah. >> So, when that happens, when you get um
00:39:47
arrested and charged for um aggravate being involved with an aggravated robbery and a kidnapping, do you you
00:39:52
tell your parents? >> The day before I go to prison, I tell them like the night off, I'm sitting in
00:39:58
the family. >> So, you didn't tell them you were going through going to court and not telling
00:40:01
them. >> No, no, I wasn't at all. >> Why? Why? Who did you share it with?
00:40:04
>> I don't want to I don't want to take like my my family to the New Zealand
00:40:08
court. like it's not a nice place, man. You know, and I was like, if I get off,
00:40:13
I get off. If I don't, I'll just tell them the day before my sentencing. Um,
00:40:17
and that's what happened. Like, I got a call the day before my court case. And
00:40:21
up until then, the the lawyer was telling me, "Oh, you're going to get home detention, right?" Uh, but the day
00:40:28
before he calls me, he's like, "Look, mate, I think you're going to go to
00:40:31
prison for at least 3 years." And I was like, "Shit, I'm sitting in my family
00:40:36
lounge." I think we're like watching a movie or something. And then I break it
00:40:39
down to everyone like, "Oh, I've got a court case tomorrow and I might be going
00:40:42
to prison." What the heck? >> Pause the movie. Pause the movie, guys.
00:40:45
I've got news. Oh my god. My father, this is the first time I saw him saw him
00:40:50
tearing up like he started um tearing, you know, the morning when I was leaving the family. I like hugged everybody and
00:40:56
my brother came with me to the courtroom. Yeah. >> [ __ ] How was that? It felt I had built a connection with my
00:41:06
family at that moment. Like for me it was a beautiful moment. It was like a >> it's a moment of vulnerability.
00:41:12
>> Yeah. It was like an embrace, you know, like you you messed up, man. Um but
00:41:16
we're going to be with you, you know. >> Um and they had seen that I was trying
00:41:21
to better my life. Like I was trying to go to uni. I was doing foundation course
00:41:24
and everything else. So they saw that I was going on a positive trajectory and then all of a sudden boom, present.
00:41:29
They're like shocked almost cuz they thought I had left it behind. M >> why did why didn't you feel more hard
00:41:38
done by uh as in like judge giving me three years two months? >> Yeah. When Yeah. When you when you when
00:41:45
you hear about your role in it and you didn't really want any part of it and
00:41:49
>> I'm a bit of I'm a bit of a sick I'm a bit of a sick person in a way because I
00:41:54
like to get punished >> especially when I know I've done wrong. I I like to get punished and and I do
00:41:59
that to myself as well. I punish myself. Um, and so when the judge didn't even look
00:42:06
at me and he sentenced me to three years, two months, just like that, boom. Um, I went into the back of the courtroom. I
00:42:16
had my head in my hands and I was like, "Fuck." Like, did I make the right
00:42:19
decision? You know, was this the right move? Like, I was in uni. I was trying to change my, yes, I had some bad
00:42:24
habits, but I was trying to change my life around. This is going to put me back so much.
00:42:29
Um so initially I I felt really heavy with that for a couple of days. Um yeah man and uh the first week in prison
00:42:44
and I and I share the story in my book. 3:00 in the morning the cell door slams open. Three guards
00:42:53
come in. They take my cellmate outside. They tell me to stand and they tell me to strip. And it wasn't the first time I
00:43:00
got strip searched, but this was different. 3:00 in the morning, you're like, "What's going on?" Boom. Very
00:43:07
fast, you know, aggressive. Strip searched. Made feel absolutely, you know, humiliated.
00:43:16
Second night, same thing, same guards come in, same time, bang, slab, cell door slams open. I guess shrimp
00:43:22
searched. The third night, the same thing happens, man. my first week in prison, I'm like,
00:43:28
"Fuck, like I [ __ ] up, you know, and there isn't anything you can do about
00:43:33
it. You you retaliate, just going to get more charges and you get more time." And
00:43:38
at that third night, that was probably the lowest point in my life. Like absolute lowest. And I knew I never
00:43:44
wanted to be in that position ever again. That's why I don't understand people who think prison's cool. Like
00:43:50
there's this culture that people think that if you've been to prison, it's cool
00:43:54
somehow and you get your stripes, but you get strip searched in prison by another man.
00:44:00
>> Mhm. >> And you don't have any control. He tells you bend down and you have to bend down.
00:44:05
And nobody talks about that. Oh, don't talk about that. Talk about how it's
00:44:08
cool. That's not cool at all. Before every visit, you put on your Teletubby suit and then
00:44:14
when you come out, you get strip searched again. after just seeing your family, you get strip searched. That's
00:44:20
why I didn't want to see my family for like the first month. I was like, I don't want to see you guys because I
00:44:24
knew you'd get strip searched. I don't want to go through that humiliating
00:44:26
process. >> But because my mom was really wanting to catch up, so >> I I can understand the need for um strip
00:44:35
searches after a visit in case contraband has been passed from the visitor to the inmate. But what was the
00:44:40
what was the reason for the strip searches in the middle of the night? Contraband hardly comes through that way
00:44:45
though and everybody knows contraband comes through the and I'm an adviser for
00:44:50
the department of corrections. I don't want to get in trouble but a lot of the
00:44:53
time contraband comes through very >> proper ways you know yeah it doesn't
00:44:59
come through visits like you're wearing a Teletubby suit there's guard standing
00:45:03
around they're looking at you the whole time how are you going to get something
00:45:05
inside you and put it up your backside >> you know but it's a process that that
00:45:11
you have to go through What's involved in that strip search surge? >> Pull down your jocks and squats in front
00:45:19
of another man. >> It's absolutely humiliating, man. And going through that experience, I was
00:45:26
like, I'm never coming back to prison ever again. I'll do whatever it takes.
00:45:30
How can I come back to this place and experience this? >> Why are they doing that at 3:00 in the
00:45:34
morning? Is it just power and control? >> There's a few reasons. When I
00:45:38
internalize the situation, it was like either they're wanting to, you know, just give us a
00:45:46
really harsh reality cuz we're young 18y olds. We should never come back to prison. Okay, that's one option. The
00:45:53
other option is they're just having some fun. New kids on the block. Let's give
00:45:56
them a scare. Um, and the other thing was maybe they thought that because we came in and our sentence wasn't too
00:46:02
long, we actually came in with contraband >> as donkeys they called it. >> Oh, like meals.
00:46:09
>> Meals like you would you would put it up your backside like a lot of people would
00:46:12
do this. They'll come in for a short stint, put up put it up their backside and then bring that contraband to the
00:46:17
rest of the unit. >> So I think that's what they thought. And the f fourth thing, maybe they were just
00:46:21
like couple of racist guys cuz they're all white dudes and kind of seemed like
00:46:26
they were getting satisfaction from it to be honest. >> Yeah. So immediately after after being
00:46:32
sentenced you you go to Mount Hayden remand for for how long? >> Yeah. Uh 2 days actually. Initially in
00:46:39
my first unit, I was there for 2 days and that was a crazy experience because we go in and I'm like super paranoid
00:46:46
that I've seen all the prison films, right? People are going to come into your unit and they're going to try, you
00:46:52
know, test you and and like rape you as well. Like this was the front and center
00:46:57
in our mind. And I told my cellmate like, "Look, whatever happens, we're
00:47:01
going to fight back. We're as soon as the cell door opens, people are going to
00:47:04
come in here and we're going to fight back." And uh I couldn't go to sleep that
00:47:08
night. I kept waking up kept waking up thinking the cell door was going to open. Sal door is going to open. And in
00:47:12
the morning the cell door didn't open. And I went out to the cell door and I
00:47:18
saw and there was like Kabes coming out. There's there's like a whole bunch of
00:47:22
them and they were training and it was like a very intense unit and there the guard didn't open our cell door and that
00:47:28
was because we were in remand and we were sentenced. So went into another unit, we were sentenced. That was all
00:47:35
good. It was pretty chill. And then we're taken to Spring Hill Corrections Facility up in Bombay Hills.
00:47:40
>> So, do they is the communication any good? Like do you know you know what's
00:47:44
happening and where you're being sent to and >> No. No. It's just like you know like
00:47:50
half an hour before like you're being transferred to this location. >> Pack up your stuff and you have to pack
00:47:55
up and go. >> Um yeah man interesting experience. Spring Hill was nice though. Spring Hill
00:48:02
was nice. >> Five stars. would recommend. >> It actually was. But you know what?
00:48:07
>> What do you mean nice? Can you explain that? >> Look, it's one of the prisons where you
00:48:12
have you can see the sky. >> Like in the units you can see the sky. In Mount Eden, we couldn't
00:48:19
>> um and that's really difficult. Like we could train in our units, >> see the sky, experience the sunlight,
00:48:25
and it really helped. Um made the experience much easier. But now 10 years on, right, I'm part of
00:48:32
a ministerial advisory group to the department of corrections. Um, we meet every 3 months. We go and
00:48:39
speak to the department of corrections commissioner. Like it's very high level
00:48:42
stuff. And they took us back to the same prison that I was released from, Spring
00:48:46
Hill Corrections, as like a we went with the commissioner and did a walk around the the prison. And I saw that the
00:48:53
prison had gotten considerably worse. The unit that I was in, there was no grass anymore. Everything was concrete,
00:49:00
more steel cages. And it just showed and the majority of people were on remand, which means more people are committing
00:49:07
crime >> and the the system is not working. It's breaking down. And when I saw that,
00:49:12
honestly, I went back to that same unit. I was very heartbroken >> cuz I was hoping to see like hope in
00:49:19
there. And I didn't. I didn't, man. And I felt really bad that that that's the
00:49:24
way our system is um heading towards and it's not going to be good for our society.
00:49:29
>> It's a ticking time bomb, man. >> So, you get to Spring Hill, which is
00:49:35
your new home for the foreseeable future. Maybe up to 3 years, I don't know.
00:49:39
>> Um >> yeah. How long does it take to adjust? What like the first week? Do you you cry
00:49:44
yourself to sleep every night? >> No, I didn't cry. I didn't cry. Alhamdulillah. Um
00:49:49
it gets time it gets a little bit of getting used to like the food um the different characters in the unit. You
00:49:56
have to figure out the different types of people, how to interact with the different types of people and um I
00:50:05
quickly learned that I needed to do more reading. So, I got like books on body language from the prison library and I
00:50:12
started to learn more about reading people's body language and how to interact with people. Um, how to stand
00:50:18
firm in certain situations and and let go of other situations. Um, and I navigated their system quite well if I'm
00:50:25
being honest. There were a few times where I was in a situation and I could have chosen to take the other path of
00:50:33
destruction and becoming an animal and being in the prison cycle for the rest of my life or letting it go, doing my
00:50:41
time and getting out. And I thankfully chose that side. Um but it teaches you a lot about
00:50:50
you know this importance of respect and having respect for people and expecting respect back and being straightforward
00:50:58
and and communicating well like in prison you can't leave things for judgment. Things can escalate very
00:51:04
quickly if somebody feels disrespected because of how you've acted of what you've said.
00:51:08
>> Out in society man you can get away with so much >> and that's what I appreciated about
00:51:13
prison. like I could leave a live a more comfortable life in there once I've or
00:51:19
um understood the dynamics. You could live a much more comfortable life. Whereas in outside like people throw
00:51:25
shade, people aren't direct with you. Um people can get away with stuff. Um and I really appreciated that about
00:51:33
prison. >> Did you manage to avoid violence? >> Um yes, I did actually. And that's very
00:51:42
rare for people to and I wasn't in sex. I'm just going to be straight up. I
00:51:46
wasn't in sex. I I choose to be in mainstream. Um but there were instances where I was tested and I stood my ground
00:51:55
and it didn't escalate >> because you would get tested to see if you're going to back down. And if you
00:52:00
back down then they would come into you your unit, take your come into yourself,
00:52:05
take your staff because they know you're a pushover. But you stand firm and you
00:52:09
show that you're ready for violence. A lot of the time violence doesn't happen.
00:52:12
It only happens when one side disrespects the other side extremely and in between gangs as well.
00:52:18
>> Yeah. >> Did you see some things that you can't unsee? >> Um
00:52:24
I mean like wasn't that harsh like you you'd have people go inside a a cell,
00:52:30
fight it out, one person comes out bloodied up, the other guy we wouldn't see for a little while. Um, but other
00:52:38
than that, like there wasn't any raping or anything like that going on, if I'm
00:52:42
being honest. >> Um, it was a it was a good unit that I was in. >> Yeah.
00:52:49
>> I've heard you talk about this chapter of your your life and you talk about
00:52:52
looking at Gollum in the mirror. >> What does what does that mean? So I I discovered that I have Gollum and and
00:53:00
for people that are aware of Gollum, he's the character in Lord of the Rings
00:53:05
who was initially a person called Smeaggel and because of the you know the desire that he had for attaining the
00:53:13
ring he started to go down a destructive path. He you know started murdering and
00:53:19
and being a liar and a cheat and he became the worst version of himself. And me being in prison, I discovered
00:53:26
that I also had Gollum, the worst version of me inside of me that was trying to make me live the most
00:53:33
disgusting life, a selfish life. And I realized the way I could tame Gollum was to punish myself and to sacrifice and go
00:53:44
through hardship and train and be disciplined. And as I started to do do these things, I I grabbed the control
00:53:50
over Gollum and Gollum actually became my friend. And now Gollum encourages me to do good things rather than trying to
00:53:57
take me down a destructive path. But that was because I was able to tame my Gollum.
00:54:02
>> Um, and in Islam we call it actually the nuffs. Um, yeah. Did you meet anyone inside who
00:54:11
helped change your perspective? >> Um, there were a few people. One of the
00:54:15
main persons was Muhammad. uh he was a individual who was there for importing drugs, high amounts of drugs from Sweden
00:54:26
and meeting him I initially saw that he used to train in the in the unit and he was disciplined and people respected
00:54:35
him. So I automatically connected with him and kind of followed his routine >> and it really helped you know to have a
00:54:41
routine to hang around with people that weren't just sitting on a seat listening
00:54:46
to music and letting life go by. M >> I saw so many of these people in prison.
00:54:50
They'll literally just sit on a seat the whole time listen to 50 Cent or Tupac or
00:54:55
whatever and just like days out and just let time go by. I never understood it honestly.
00:55:00
>> I was like this is your opportunity to make something of yourself to rebuild
00:55:03
yourself. Why are you sitting down doing nothing? >> How are they is have they got a
00:55:07
Bluetooth speaker or >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a speaker? Um at that time it was like discs,
00:55:12
>> right? >> Um I think they still use >> compact discs. >> Yeah. There's a there's a saying I've
00:55:17
heard um you you do your time or your time will do you. And I suppose that's
00:55:21
what that's what you're talking about here. >> Yeah. >> Um >> did you did you feel like you belonged
00:55:27
or or did you think I'm I'm not like excuse me I'm not like these guys?
00:55:31
>> I definitely saw myself in people >> you know and I see that even now like
00:55:36
when I'm out onto the street I see somebody who's struggling very severely.
00:55:40
I'm like man that could have been me. Yeah. >> So I'm really grateful of my situation.
00:55:45
Um but I definitely saw that there are people who have lived very difficult lives and I can't relate to them and
00:55:52
that is not the reality that I have. You know I come from a loving family. Um I am a Muslim like I have a faith I have a
00:56:01
sense of purpose and a belonging. So no there were times where I felt completely
00:56:06
out of place and I knew I wasn't going to come back. >> Yeah. In saying that though, like you
00:56:11
you you know, you've got your own everyone's got their own journey, but you you've got a journey as well. Like
00:56:15
you've been a a victim of abuse. Um you had to flee your home country, you moved
00:56:20
to New Zealand without your dad when when you were seven. Like, you know, you don't don't minimize what you've been
00:56:25
through. >> But I actually think the the more difficulty you go through, the more
00:56:30
powerful you can be. >> And and we don't often think of it that way. like people who have been
00:56:35
completely destroyed and and gone through the most difficult things, they can actually become the most impactful
00:56:44
uh members of society. And that's why I think there's so much potential in
00:56:47
prisons that's just untapped. Because if all these people that have gone through
00:56:51
difficult lives, if you were to transform them, man, they would like change society, you know, they would be your
00:57:00
entrepreneurs, the your um motivational speakers, and they would have so much positive impact.
00:57:06
>> And we're just letting them, you know, rot. >> When when was it the hardest? Like, I'm
00:57:14
thinking you're in there 11 months all up, so I'm guessing you did at least a
00:57:17
birthday or Christmas or maybe both in there. Yeah. When is it the hardest? >> We would actually celebrate people's
00:57:24
birthdays in there would make like cakes as well. Um the whole unit would sit around and and would uh eat together.
00:57:31
The hardest would probably have to be um like times when you're feeling like [ __ ] man am I actually going to be
00:57:44
able to redeem myself? like these things that I'm saying I'm going to do. I want
00:57:48
to go to the best university for engineering. Am I actually going to be able to do this? Like those
00:57:53
conversations were the most difficult cuz I had to keep fighting self-doubt and and be like, "No, you can do it. You
00:58:01
can do it." You know, I'd often get because I suffered with from low self-esteem.
00:58:06
Um I would go into the mirror after working out. I would go into the mirror, look at myself, literally look at myself
00:58:12
and be like, "You're doing so well." you know, like I would have conversations
00:58:16
with myself in the scratchy um steel mirror. Um and I would do that every day. And when I came out, I I found out
00:58:23
there's this term called mirror meditation where people actually do this to to like
00:58:28
>> uh you know, rebuild themsel. >> Yeah. Positive affirmations. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I was and I was doing
00:58:32
that just out of natural like conversations. >> Um so whenever I felt that difficulty,
00:58:38
I'll do that. I would pray. I'd give myself positive affirmations. Um but yeah man on a whole I had a had a
00:58:44
good prison experience. >> Um and it's a dream scenario like you know you you're not a recidivist
00:58:52
>> like you you know you've you've you were released and you haven't gone back um
00:58:55
which is like a a dream for the correction um department dream for society as well.
00:59:01
>> 100%. >> So release day what's that like? Like are you counting down the days?
00:59:05
>> You're feeling nervous man. You're feeling nervous. like some people in the
00:59:09
unit wouldn't tell people that they're being released because people would have
00:59:13
their eyebrows shaven like before being released. Um but because I had good relations with
00:59:19
everyone and and I had respect, I told like my friends and everybody like this is my release date and people were quite
00:59:25
happy for me. I thought that people would be resentful like oh this guy's leaving, you know,
00:59:29
>> but they were happy. They're like, you know, all the best and and this and
00:59:32
that. But as release day is coming up, you start to feel more and more nervous. Like, [ __ ] I'm going back into society.
00:59:38
There's so much expectations. Life here was easy. Everything was like straightforward.
00:59:43
I'm going into the unknown. My sister picks me up. She's driving in the motorway coming back from Bombay Hills.
00:59:48
She's just going at 100, you know, normal. And I'm like, "Yo, slow down.
00:59:51
Slow. You're going too fast." Like, I'm freaking out. Um, and I my first time I I remember going into the
01:00:00
mall to buy some clothes. I go into the mall and there's so many people. There's
01:00:03
like I'm looking around and and I've only been in prison for a year and it
01:00:07
just feels so intense and it took me time and I went back home and I almost broke down to my mom. I was like [ __ ] I
01:00:12
don't think I'm going to be able to do this. Like how am I going to feel back
01:00:15
like I'm going to be able to come back into society. >> The wise woman she is. She's like it's
01:00:20
okay son. Like you just come back come out give it some time. You'll be back.
01:00:24
You'll be normal. >> Um for about two weeks I wouldn't go outside of the house much. And then I
01:00:29
started to to um to be okay. >> What about forgiveness? Have you forgiven yourself? Has your family
01:00:37
forgiven you? >> Um I've I've often asked my mother for forgiveness and she says that she's very
01:00:44
proud of who I am now. >> I've forgiven myself as well. Um and I'm trying to do as much good as
01:00:53
possible. M >> um yeah what did you what did you learn about forgiveness through this whole
01:00:57
experience both giving it and asking for it >> um that it's the one of the biggest
01:01:03
things you can do in your journey of self-healing like for me it's probably the first
01:01:10
um taking accountability and then forgiving yourself I think it comes first because without it you're not
01:01:16
going to be able to move on um and start to really rebuild um giving forgiveness to other people. I
01:01:26
followed the model of our prophet peace be upon him who was very forgiving person and I talk about a story in in
01:01:33
the book where he forgave the killer of his um uncle who he was very close to. Um, and and I understand like if we want
01:01:42
to live a life where like we're not repeating the cycle, someone has to step up and be like,
01:01:52
okay, it's going to stop with me and I'm going to forgive and I'm not going to
01:01:56
continue this. And it's the same thing that happened in March 15, right? >> Um, someone has to stand and be like, I
01:02:03
forgive. I'm going to stop it here. I'm not going to let this continue. And
01:02:06
research finds that when people actually do that, when you give somebody else the
01:02:10
benefit of the dou doubt or you forgive, you can actually live a really good life
01:02:16
and build a really good relationship. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What was the hardest part about starting
01:02:22
again? >> Knowing how much I had to do. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. I suppose if someone's starting on
01:02:28
like ground zero, you're starting on, you know, -35. I I felt like I had to do
01:02:33
twice the work to to be where I'm at and I'm very thankful for it. >> The most difficult part of that
01:02:39
transition was probably my first year at uni at at UC. I'm sitting among all
01:02:44
these freshly gradu uh finished from high school kids, you know, and I've come out of prison and I'm like haven't
01:02:51
gone through the schooling system. So I was lucky to be in the first year of engineering
01:02:58
and it was very challenging like I would be in the library till 11:00 12:00 every
01:03:02
single day. Um but once I got through that first year I was like man I could do this
01:03:09
>> like I could do this. Um and after that everything just became a >> yeah breeze.
01:03:17
>> Well it's funny cuz you know you get you get momentum. Um, so as you found out
01:03:21
when you were younger, you know, there's negative momentum where your behavior
01:03:24
gets worse and worse, but it works the other way as well with, you know, with good positive habits.
01:03:29
>> It does, man. It does. And it builds on it builds on each other and it's all
01:03:32
interlin as well. >> Why did why did you end up studying engineering in Christ Church? Was that
01:03:36
was part of that to get away from your old friend group or >> in Christ Church? That was the reason.
01:03:41
But engineering, I decided because when I was in prison, I was like, I want to become a good engineer so I can help
01:03:47
rebuild, right? And when I went to Afghanistan in 2012, I noticed how much of the infrastructure had been
01:03:52
destroyed. So I was like, if I study engineering, I can help rebuild. Made that decision in prison. And then
01:03:59
um I told my family, I was like, "Yes, I've applied at Oakland Uni as well."
01:04:05
But I actually didn't even apply at Oakland Uni. I just put all my eggs into
01:04:08
UC cuz I knew that was the best uni for engineering civil. And um lo and behold,
01:04:13
I got accepted, man. And I went away. And that was probably the best decision I could make because I did get away from
01:04:19
my friends. >> I went into a complete different environment, changed my name and really
01:04:26
just began to rebuild myself. >> Um, did you in those early years in in university like did you like tell people
01:04:35
your story or what you'd been through or I I made sure I didn't tell anybody. If
01:04:40
I became very close with someone um then I would tell them like this is my story
01:04:45
but I tried to keep it very hidden because I didn't want anybody judge me judging me. Yeah.
01:04:50
>> They often looked at me and like who's this good bearded guy in in uni you know
01:04:55
like he he's not our age group. >> Um so I probably was that person that
01:04:59
was seen as a bit strange and odd but um nobody found out until a couple of years
01:05:03
later. >> When was the moment that you realized your story and your journey could help
01:05:08
others? Um probably in my experience with March 15 >> m >> when the terrorist attack happened and I
01:05:21
started to share my story more. I noticed that it was helping other people. Like I'd get messages on my
01:05:26
messenger saying, "Bro, thanks for sharing your story. I've just come out
01:05:30
of prison. I'm struggling. I don't think I'm going to be able to make it." like
01:05:34
and when you hear positive affirmations from people like you're like man I should continue to keep telling my story
01:05:40
you know and also I found like when I share my story it gives me positive affirmations about how far I've
01:05:47
come and how I never want to go back >> um it's a bit of a selfish thing really
01:05:53
>> yes in March 15 2019 um yeah the day of the mosque attacks in Christ Church
01:06:00
where were you when you heard the news >> I was was inside the university prayer space, the Muslah, and
01:06:09
it was a normal Friday. Like we'd come out um finished prayer and I looked to
01:06:16
the guy behind me as I turned around to go outside to meet my wife. The guy behind me, his face had changed color
01:06:22
and he was looking at his phone and he was like murmuring stuff. I didn't understand it. Went outside and heard
01:06:28
other people saying, "There's been a shooting at the mosque. Shooting at the
01:06:30
mosque." And then my wife came out of the woman's side and she was like, "Did
01:06:33
you hear?" She almost had like a shock look on her face as well. Didn't believe
01:06:37
it. Um, and my initial thought, Dom, was [ __ ] crazy Muslim. Like I actually thought it was a Muslim
01:06:49
that had gone into the mosque and killed somebody. >> And the reason why I know I thought that
01:06:55
way was because in the media, Muslims were portrayed as being the terrorists. they were over represented by 400% re
01:07:04
research shows. So I thought that we were the terrorists, you know, that was my first initial thought.
01:07:10
>> And then later on we found out that it was a um white guy and he had his
01:07:14
reasons. I jumped in the car, go to Mazjidan to see if I can help, tell my wife to stay
01:07:21
in the library um cuz we didn't know how many active shooters there were. And um
01:07:27
I go across the masjid and they wouldn't allow us to go into the masjid and I'm
01:07:30
pacing back and forth with my friends and on the WhatsApp group you start hearing names seeing names of people
01:07:36
that you knew that no longer you know some people that had made it out they were like messaging like oh this person
01:07:43
didn't make it this person because of what they had seen and two of those people that
01:07:50
the names that I heard were Hamza and Sad two young people who I had the privilege of mentoring Um, and that was
01:07:57
probably the most difficult knowing that two young people full of potential are just taken away just like that.
01:08:05
>> Because of somebody else's baggage and their unresolved issues. >> Yeah. How did how did you feel after
01:08:13
that? Are you familiar with the term survivors guilt? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
01:08:18
>> There was survivors guilt in the people that were in the masjid. For me
01:08:23
personally, I I think I was a little bit detached from it because I wasn't directly in the masjid, right?
01:08:28
>> Um, so for me it was like how can I help? How can I do the most that I can out of
01:08:34
this situation? Went into the burials. We we conducted the burials and then coming out like my wife and I
01:08:42
in the first week were sitting in a dark room and we're thinking to oursel like
01:08:47
how can we use this negative energy that's around right now? How can we use this negative energy and use it as fuel
01:08:53
for positive change? And engineering, we learn about the law, one of the laws of
01:08:57
energy where energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but it can transform from one form to another. So like there's
01:09:05
negative energy here. How can we transform it and use it as fuel? It's like what would it would be crazy if we
01:09:11
were to honor the 51 lives that were lost by traveling to Afghanistan, establishing 51 micro businesses,
01:09:18
changing 51 lives forever, capturing it on video, coming back and showing the New Zealand public and the world what
01:09:25
can be possible if you transform negative energy. >> Um, and we did that, man. Like me and my
01:09:31
wife, no previous experience with humanitarian work, had no clue. sat down in the library, university library, like
01:09:39
made a whole list of people that we could call call and ask if they would be willing to support the project. Call
01:09:45
after call after call while I have my exams. Um, and we made it work, man. We we started to give a little page,
01:09:53
fundraised about $20,000, >> as $392 per business, >> traveled to Afghanistan for a period of
01:09:59
just shy of 3 months on the road every single day, 15, 16 hour days. Um, and alhamdulillah made it happen and came
01:10:07
back. Now there's a film that was recently in cinemas, Project 51. Beautiful film that captures that story.
01:10:14
>> Um, and we're just so blessed, man, to have been able to do that. >> Yeah. The um the money you raised goes a
01:10:20
lot further over there than what it would in in Christ Church. What are some of these 51 micro businesses that you
01:10:25
helped set up with that $20,000 you raised? >> The most common one would be like a
01:10:29
karach um like a portable car, you know, on wheels. Recently, I saw one on Facebook Marketplace. The guy was
01:10:36
selling it for $4 and a half grand. We were setting it up for like $250 New Zealand, you know, would get the cart
01:10:43
built for the individual after having surveyed them, uh would go into the market, buy them like maybe the fruit or
01:10:50
vegetable that they wanted to sell, be involved in the entire process because we didn't want to hand out money. So,
01:10:56
we'd literally go create the little business for them >> and off they go. and then would come
01:11:02
back about two weeks later to see how they're doing and that was it. Um there
01:11:07
was other thing like people would sell gas, LPG gas. Um women would sell reusable bags. So we buy them sewing
01:11:15
machine with cloth and they would make reusable bags cuz um plastic free was a thing back then. At that time there was
01:11:22
like this whole thing about globally as well. >> Um so that was popular as well among the
01:11:27
women. >> Yeah. But you have to watch the film to know more about >> Yeah. Where can you watch the film?
01:11:32
>> It was in New Zealand cinemas. Now we're trying to get it into international film
01:11:36
festivals. You can rent it online um if you look out Project 51, but I would highly recommend that you book a private
01:11:44
screening with your community or your family or your organization and go watch it in a small cinema. The experience is
01:11:51
completely different. M >> you can reach out to us um and we can make that happen to have a private
01:11:57
screening. >> When you were sitting in your um prison cell at Mount Eden or Spring Hill
01:12:04
Correctional Facility, like did you ever imagine, you know, you'd be doing something like this?
01:12:08
>> No, man. No, honestly, how far life has come is just absolutely crazy. That's
01:12:13
why I'm just so grateful. I'm so so grateful of everything, you know, to to
01:12:18
to be able to travel the country and and speak like keynote um sessions and take
01:12:24
my family with me to be able to release a book and and then a film as well now and now I'm traveling to a to the Gulf
01:12:32
actually part of a trip that I'm doing for the organization that I'm leading
01:12:37
called AsterBab. It's a community organization in Christ Church and our goal is to build the most impactful,
01:12:42
sustainable, and spiritually uplifted community in the world. It's a bit of a
01:12:47
huge uh feat, but that is our goal. >> And to be able to do these things, man,
01:12:52
like alhamdulillah, man. Alhamdulillah. Like, >> and and people often think like
01:13:00
like it's so hard to get to a certain position, right? The first thing is just
01:13:03
making that first step. And like you said, slowly momentum builds. momentum builds and in 10 years time you end up
01:13:10
being in a place that's completely surreal >> to what you had imagined.
01:13:14
>> Well, I mean your your your own personal version of rock bottom is deeper than
01:13:19
luckily deeper than what most of us would get to. But I think this is inspiring for anyone that's listening to
01:13:24
this now that is uh I don't know potentially feeling lost or at their own version of rock bottom that you know
01:13:30
things can get better. But you got no one else can do the work for you, right? >> No man. No. And and often times we look
01:13:35
for motivation in others and we look for external validation and and things that
01:13:40
can quick fix us. It's not going to work, man. You honestly have to sit alone with yourself, with your thoughts,
01:13:47
write down what's on your mind, what's bothering you. What is the one step that
01:13:51
you can take to change one part of your life? For me, it was like when I was in prison, I was like, how can I gain
01:13:58
control over myself? So the first thing I did was I would wake up in the morning
01:14:01
and I'd clean myself spotless. >> That was the first thing I did and I did
01:14:06
that for a little while. Then it was train every single day no matter rain or shine. And just slowly building and
01:14:11
building and building. >> And we can overwhelm ourselves by saying [ __ ] there's so much to do. But just
01:14:17
start with the one thing that you can have control over. Start start gaining control over yourself. You know cuz
01:14:24
currently like in society everything is trying to make us not have control. And I hate to say it this way, but it is the
01:14:31
music we listen to, the food that we eat, the content that we consume, the phones that we have, everything is
01:14:37
trying to take control away from us, >> you know. So, we really need to regain
01:14:42
control. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, you've mentioned your book a couple of times. It came out earlier
01:14:47
this year, Beyond Hope. >> Uh 2024. Yeah. >> Last year. >> Yeah. Yeah.
01:14:51
>> Um if anyone wants to buy that, it's um still you might find it in some
01:14:55
bookstores, but it's still available online at, you know, Mighty Ape and Wor
01:14:58
Paper Plus, all those places. Um what does that phrase mean to you, Beyond Hope?
01:15:04
>> It means two things actually. It means one >> side of it where somebody has lost hope
01:15:10
completely. They're um they no longer have a future. And there's the other side where somebody
01:15:17
who has hope and they're seeking beyond it now. they they're ready to put in the
01:15:21
work and and needing to do what's necessary to be done. Um and that shows the the divergence in my story. You
01:15:29
know, I could have gone one way or the other and alhamdulillah I chose the other.
01:15:33
>> Um >> was um when the book came out, what was that like with like were your were your
01:15:39
parents and everyone close to you aware of the manuscript or or what? >> Look, did you have to have some
01:15:48
difficult conversations? Look, I come from an Afghan family and if I was to give the manuscript to my father, he
01:15:55
would redact he would redact it worse than the NZSIS, you know. Um, so I didn't actually I I
01:16:04
trusted my judgment. I only gave it to my my elder sister who I trust. I let her read it. Um, she gave me some tips
01:16:12
on are you sure you want to talk about that? Like how do you think it's going
01:16:17
to be perceived by mom and dad? you know, cuz I I do talk about my abuse in there.
01:16:21
>> And my father when he read the book, that was probably the first time that he
01:16:24
found out about it. And he was like heartbroken, >> of course. >> And um I'll never forget the
01:16:31
conversation. Like we sat down and he's like like why did you why did you say it
01:16:37
in the book? You know, why don't you like come and tell me? Um so that was a difficult conversation,
01:16:43
man. And I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but it wasn't about me. It was
01:16:48
about sharing my story to show people like, brother, you can be abused. You can live a difficult life. It's okay.
01:16:55
That is your power. You know, that is your power. So, if I was to leave that out, it would have been authentic of me.
01:17:02
>> Yeah. >> When you look back on on the the the boy, well, young man who went to jail
01:17:08
and the man who you are now, what's changed the most? probably the level of connection that I
01:17:13
have with my creator and the >> desire of living a purposeful life um and being intentional with what I do
01:17:24
um that's probably the difference. Yeah. >> If you could go back and talk to um your
01:17:31
18-year-old self sitting in that Oakland cell, what would you say to him? Don't be defined by the system and what
01:17:42
the system boxes you in as or labels you as. >> You can define yourself and label
01:17:47
yourself however you like. Put in the work, my brother. Nobody's going to put
01:17:53
in the work for you. It's not going to be easy. Start small. Write down what you achieve. Speak to
01:18:01
yourself. Be kind to yourself. And keep grinding. That's what I'll tell you.
01:18:08
>> What does hope mean to you now? >> It's a bit of a It's almost become a bit
01:18:13
of like a distasteful word really. Hope um hope for me means not giving up >> regardless of the situation.
01:18:25
Um it means that you can rebuild yourself no matter where you are in life. And I'm big on faith, man. And I and and I
01:18:39
know in this society where where faith is given like a negative, you know, image
01:18:50
and I know that that's the case and I know that people don't feel as connected
01:18:53
to to spirituality. And I think that's one of the biggest problems we have in
01:18:57
society right now, man. And our young people are not hopeful of their future because I feel that they're not
01:19:04
spiritually connected. And when somebody's not spiritually connected and and has hope of a life after this and
01:19:11
this life gets difficult, why should they have hope >> when you can't even afford to live in a
01:19:18
house when your future is undermined by technology? Like why should you even have hope? And so I'm like I'm big on
01:19:26
faith and I'm big on spirituality. Like that is the ultimate power that somebody
01:19:30
can possess within themsel. That's the ultimate hope that they can have that
01:19:33
this life isn't the end all be all, you know, like there's a there's a life
01:19:37
after this. Like let's find out what happens after this life. Um and that's
01:19:42
when you live a truly hopeful life. And um I'm so blessed to to be in that position like in 2023 census came out
01:19:51
that in a uh in a state of in a period of 5 years young people are 50% more of them
01:20:01
are on anti-depressants. Like there's been a 50% rise in 5 years of young people being on anti-depressants. That
01:20:08
is concerning man. >> That is concerning. And I honestly genuinely feel that the lack of
01:20:13
spirituality and the encouragement in society for finding a spiritual self has a lot to do with that because that's
01:20:21
tied into hope in my opinion. >> Yeah. >> What are your best and worst habits?
01:20:27
Have you still got any bad habits that you're trying to conquer? >> 100%. Like
01:20:31
>> I think we're all constantly a work in progress. >> 100% man. That pastry and the psych
01:20:38
that's probably the worst to be honest. It's like my mornings I'm like black
01:20:41
coffee, no pastry, no pastry. And I I give into the pastry. But um um other than that, like like sometimes I miss my
01:20:51
workouts or I say things in a way where I'm like that's not really how you
01:20:55
should speak, you know. >> Um maybe the way I act to my children sometimes
01:21:00
>> and I'm like that's not really an ideal father. You shouldn't shouldn't act that
01:21:04
way. You shouldn't behave that way. Um, sometimes the way I act with my with my
01:21:08
wife when I get frustrated and and the way I speak, I'm like, that's not the
01:21:13
ideal person that I want to be. So, it's it's a work in progress, man. It's a
01:21:16
work in progress. >> It seems like you're super conscious and mindful, though.
01:21:20
>> Yeah. I um like I said initially, that that's one of the things I appreciate
01:21:24
>> that I do internalize things and and look at look back at my actions. >> And I've recently started like before I
01:21:31
go to sleep, I internalize my entire day. How did I act with some person when I spoke to someone? Did I make them feel
01:21:39
a certain way? How could I have handled a situation better? What are the things that I did good in my life in that day?
01:21:45
And it really helps set the tone for the next day. And I'm more aware. And I'm
01:21:48
more aware. >> How old are your boys now? >> One's five and one's two. And they're
01:21:53
both recently bold. >> Recently what? >> Bold. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I shaved their head
01:22:00
cuz my older one went into the >> drawer and he shaved his brother's head
01:22:05
um partially and there was no way we could save it. So I shaved both of them. They look very strange.
01:22:10
>> Was that like punishment? >> Yeah. Yeah. So you both have to be in it
01:22:15
together, you know. >> You didn't feel like joining them for solidarity.
01:22:19
>> No. No, definitely not. I'm going to the golf and I and I'm going to be having
01:22:22
some meetings. So I was like my my wife actually proposed it to I was like, "No,
01:22:27
I'm definitely not going into a meeting bold." >> Okay. So, they're still they're still
01:22:30
very young. Um, is it something you've discussed with your wife when when you
01:22:34
tell them your story? >> Yeah, man. I think when they get to a certain age, they would read my book.
01:22:41
Um, and I'll have really good conversations with them. >> The thing that I want my children to
01:22:47
know is that me and them have a really solid relationship. No matter what they're going through, they could always
01:22:52
come back to me. That was something I didn't have with my parents because of
01:22:56
the shame that I felt or the lack of connection. Um, and I don't want that for my son because I know he's going to
01:23:02
go through [ __ ] And you need someone solid to be with you when you go through that stuff. Um, and I want to be that
01:23:08
person for my children, you know. >> Are you good with vulnerability now and
01:23:13
having open conversations? from what you've said before about, you know, not
01:23:17
um sharing the manuscript with your parents and not telling them much of what's going on. I think I know the
01:23:22
answer to this, but is it something you're working on or you getting better at? Have you got some good friends that
01:23:26
you can >> man? You you always need a couple of people that you know are solid.
01:23:32
>> Um that when you're being too vulnerable, they're like, "Brother, what
01:23:35
are you doing? Like, sort your [ __ ] out." You know, cuz you don't want to be
01:23:38
too ah guys, like you don't want to be like that, too. You've got stuff to do
01:23:42
as as a man in particular. like you have to do things. And um I do have those friends, you know,
01:23:49
>> that I can open up to to a degree >> and they'll tell me how it is.
01:23:53
>> And we're we're bound by our faith. >> Yeah. That's cool.
01:23:56
>> Yeah, man. >> What are you most afraid of? living my life thinking that I was doing the right
01:24:06
thing >> and then realizing that the intention that I had for it wasn't actually for
01:24:13
the right reasons >> and I lived for the wrong reasons not knowing and I die as a hypocrite.
01:24:22
>> Do you feel like you're on the right track now? >> I hope so, man. I hope so. I'm trying.
01:24:27
>> Um I'm constantly checking my intentions like why am I doing this? Why am I here
01:24:32
on this podcast, you know? Um, and my ultimate intention is to do it to to to um to please my creator
01:24:43
>> and do it for that reason because that's the ultimate reason for me.
01:24:46
>> Um, >> yeah, man. >> Yeah. What does Allah mean to you? Allah
01:24:52
was like a dirty word for a while after 9/11. Like it was quite triggering for people. But is Yeah. Who is Allah? Is he
01:24:59
forgiving? Allah and and Jihad as well. Jihad's another one. Jihad. It's like
01:25:05
it's just been imprinted in everyone's mind. >> Well, there's a New Zealand rock band
01:25:08
called Jihad and they were trying to break into the American market and uh the the record label made them change
01:25:13
their name because they're like, "It sounds too much like Jihad. It's going
01:25:16
to be offputting to people." It's crazy when you look back. It's a crazy time.
01:25:19
>> Isn't the lead singer now Muslim? >> Yeah, he's Yeah. Yeah, he is. He is.
01:25:23
He's married. >> Interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. Um uh Allah for me means the most merciful,
01:25:32
the most compassionate. Like when we recite the Quran, we saymane. That's the first thing you have to say
01:25:39
when you recite the Quran. And it's in the name of Allah, the most compassionate, most merciful. That's how
01:25:44
you start your connection with Allah, with God. Um, and then the next thing you say is alhamdulillah.
01:25:54
All praise due to Allah, you know, Lord of the world. It's like the way religion is being portrayed and
01:26:03
Islam in particular is completely the opposite. It's completely the opposite.
01:26:07
Like if you were to know Islam really in depth, not Muslims, cuz Muslims get it wrong. Let me tell you this straight up.
01:26:14
Like there are a lot of Muslims, myself included, we don't live by the way we
01:26:18
should be and we make mistakes. But Islam itself, like if you were to go into it, you' be like, "Man, this is
01:26:24
such a complete way of life. This is so beautiful." And that's why I get upset
01:26:28
when people start judging Islam without actually even knowing about it. You know, there's recently like we've we've
01:26:33
got Tongan, Smons, Mai coming into Islam. Like eight people become Muslim per day in New Zealand. Not many people
01:26:41
notice. And they're all um like new Muslims. Parkiha. and they come they they search about they're like wait this
01:26:48
is what I was told on the media this is completely wrong like jihad means to struggle
01:26:55
it doesn't only mean to go and fight in the way of God defending yourself means
01:26:59
to struggle like me battling my soul my nuffs my gollum in prison that was jihad
01:27:06
>> you know but we don't look at it that way and and then we have certain people
01:27:11
come out and use people's vulnerability and their susceptibility to fear fear
01:27:16
and they incite hatred and they incite violence and next thing you know people are acting out in ways and they don't
01:27:21
even know why they're acting out that way >> you know um and and we're seeing it
01:27:26
overseas like people becoming fearful of Islam but just read into it man like we're not here to take over like Muslim
01:27:33
like people think that Islam's here to take over somehow like in that >> Islam is a for us is a complete way of
01:27:39
life come into it see it and if you like it adopt it if you don't you be you and
01:27:45
We be us, you know. >> I I think a lot of people just fear things they don't understand.
01:27:50
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> But if you I mean the solution to that is take a bit of time to understand it.
01:27:54
>> 100% man. 100%. You have to be careful though because your algorithm might take
01:27:59
you down a path that isn't true Islam. So you have to also be careful about that. Read certain books that are, you
01:28:07
know, like or even just pick up the Quran and and read it yourself >> um rather than being told about it from
01:28:13
other people. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What about you, Dom? Do you have like a
01:28:17
connection to God? >> I was um born and raised um in a Catholic household and we went to church
01:28:24
every weekend. I I'd say I'm sort of agnostic at the moment. >> Um when I was old enough to make my own
01:28:29
decisions, I just realized, you know, you can you can you can you can be a [ __ ] and go to church every weekend
01:28:34
or you can be a good person and not go to church every weekend. >> So, yeah, I'm just sort of um in the
01:28:40
middle now. >> Yeah. What do you think happens when we die? Oh, you're going to hate me. I
01:28:45
think that's it. >> I think I think we're like a we're like a computer dead. That's it.
01:28:50
>> What? No, but that that's why like um I want to live my life as good as what I
01:28:54
can now because this might be all there is. >> It'll be a wonderful surprise if there's
01:28:58
something else. >> Yeah. >> If there's a if there's a heaven or an
01:29:01
afterlife. Yeah. What What do you think? What do you think afterlife is? What do
01:29:05
you think it looks like? >> We believe that there's forever after this. This life is just a test. This
01:29:10
this life is not the end all be all. You have to be the best person that you can
01:29:14
be so that when you go into the afterlife you can live a good life and the afterlife is free from envy,
01:29:20
jealousy, hatred, all these things, these limited things that we have as human beings. You're free from that in
01:29:26
the afterlife. Um, so this life is a test for us and I'm not living this life
01:29:32
for me only, >> you know, and that's one of the faults that I see with not believing in the
01:29:38
afterlife because you can live for yourself and for you it might be you be a good person, right? To somebody else
01:29:43
it might be like well for me like I want to abuse children because I get satisfaction from that and that's the
01:29:50
only life I have so I'm just going to do what I need to do to feel like I'm
01:29:54
satisfied from life. That's a scary thing. >> Yeah. >> There's like no boundaries at all. And
01:30:00
that's something that I struggled with before coming into my faith. There was
01:30:03
no boundaries. >> And and if we don't have boundaries as society, like we're in trouble, man.
01:30:10
We're going to have a very difficult life. And if we like just go by off the
01:30:14
laws that we have, laws change, >> you know. Um, so I would highly encourage people like I know we've got
01:30:23
negative perceptions like you know it's been on the news especially with Christianity like Christianity has been
01:30:28
attacked a lot >> I'll be honest like in movies and stuff Christianity is portrayed as like a
01:30:34
pedophile like like the priests being pedophiles and stuff like that and this leaves a bad imprint on on people and
01:30:40
yes there have been cases most definitely but this leaves a bad imprint and people don't want to lean into it
01:30:47
and be like what does relig religion teach? What does spirituality teach? We can actually learn a lot, man. So, I
01:30:52
would encourage you, bro. Like, I know you're probably living your best life.
01:30:58
But there's a Kiwi saying, man. You can't knock it till you try. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
01:31:02
>> So, you have to look into it, man. You have to look into consider different religions as doors. Some doors
01:31:11
might lead you to nowhere and you go into it be like, "No, this doesn't
01:31:14
really feel like anything there." Keep opening the doors. >> Once you've finished completing all the
01:31:20
doors, then you can be like, okay, I'm agnostic. There isn't anything out there
01:31:24
for me. But but if you haven't actually opened those doors and gone in and seen,
01:31:30
is there anything here? Can can this be a better way of life for me? Can I feel more spiritually connected and and at
01:31:35
ease and lack of anxiety and everything else? >> Then you can be like, okay, I'm
01:31:40
agnostic, you know? But until then, man, don't knock it till you try it. >> Okay. I can I can tell you
01:31:45
>> don't mean to be preachy. Don't be the one thing I said I said I'm going to
01:31:48
come here and I'm not going to be preachy but it's hard man. Yeah I know
01:31:52
cuz I I and I can understand cuz it's like you see the value that it's brought
01:31:56
you alive and you just want to share it. It's like >> so much valuable man.
01:31:59
>> Um I can tell you for me it won't be Muslim. It's too hard. Ramadan how many
01:32:03
times a day do you have to pray? >> Brother people already fast like it's
01:32:07
become a trend now. I do intermittent fasting brother. We we fast 30 days a year, cleanse our body, not only
01:32:15
physically cleans cleanse oursel mentally as well. >> The things that you're hooked on to the
01:32:20
pastry that I like in the mornings, I can't have that in the morning for 30 days. You know, it's like a reset.
01:32:26
>> Um there's so much benefits out of fasting that that that we're seeing now.
01:32:31
>> And hard things are good for you. You know that, man. >> I suppose 30 days without a pastry,
01:32:35
that's easy after doing 11 months without a pastry when you're in Spring
01:32:38
Hill. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you have any regrets? >> It's funny how I know I know there are
01:32:48
things in your past that you probably do regret, but also there comes a point where you probably have to let that go.
01:32:53
>> That's the thing. Yeah. I I actually don't like I don't have any regrets. And
01:32:57
that's part of the forgiveness, right? Like >> I've made amends and I've moved on now.
01:33:02
Um >> I regret not having more children at a younger age. I think >> it's the way
01:33:08
>> I wish I could start it earlier. >> Um, me and my wife didn't have kids up
01:33:12
until like 3 years after our marriage. >> Um, I really like children. Like I've
01:33:17
realized that I love children, man. Like my boys when when we're like playing and
01:33:21
and connecting and stuff. It's the most wholesome relationship that you can have. So,
01:33:26
>> um, yeah, definitely going to have more kids in. >> Cool. What about future goals? Where do
01:33:32
you see yourself at? 40, 50. Have you thought that far ahead? No, I haven't.
01:33:36
So, the most pressing goal that I have right now is leading this organization AST lab and making it the most
01:33:42
sustainable community um driven impactful community. >> Um I'm traveling to the Gulf going to
01:33:50
Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, UAE, and Estanul and meeting with different people to try and learn and see how we
01:34:00
can implement a a sustainable community here in New Zealand. that is so beneficial outside of the masjid walls
01:34:08
that is beneficial to everyday New Zealanders where they see the real Islam where they're like man Islam is so
01:34:13
beautiful this isn't what we were told you know that is what we're trying to do
01:34:17
we're trying to change narratives so that is my goal because I see the negativity that's out there against
01:34:24
Muslims and I know where that's going to lead to like it's going to become a very
01:34:28
polarized place for Muslims if a counternarrative isn't built and that's
01:34:33
what we're trying to do We're trying to build a counternarrative um by establishing the enlightened city.
01:34:41
>> I'm so excited to see what the future brings. >> I'm excited
01:34:44
>> from from 10 years ago to now like um yeah, it's going to be so interesting to
01:34:48
see where you are in like another 10 years from now. >> Yeah, same man. I've been I've been
01:34:52
reached out to by like I wouldn't say the political party, but they're like,
01:34:56
"Have you thought about getting into politics?" Like um but no, man. Like
01:35:01
politics and stuff, no. I think it has to be from the community level. It has to be grassroots.
01:35:07
>> You can really create a impactful community from grassroots level. Um be
01:35:13
self- sustaining. You're not depending on money from the government through government funding. You're really
01:35:18
generating your own revenue and supporting your own community. M >> um this is going to be hopefully decades
01:35:26
from now, but um imagine imagine you've passed away and you're lying in your
01:35:30
coffin and your wife and two kids and maybe any future kids are standing around. What three words would you like
01:35:37
them to use to describe you and the way you lived your life as a man? Strong, impactful Muslim.
01:35:50
That's how I want them to describe me. Strong, impactful Muslim. >> Yeah.
01:35:56
>> Are you proud of yourself? >> Alhamdulillah, man. All praise due to
01:36:00
Allah. I am proud of of how far I've come. >> Definitely. And I don't take any credit
01:36:07
for myself at all. Like, if it wasn't for God's grace of taking me taking me
01:36:12
down the direction, >> um I would not be here, man. I I'm not one of those guys that come out and try
01:36:18
to be the guru that tells people like you can do it all and this and it's all
01:36:22
on you and this and I truly believe like you have to connect yourself spiritually
01:36:27
and God will take care of you. >> You put in the effort but God will take care of you.
01:36:31
>> Um so I'm proud man. Alhamdulillah. >> Dom it's really good to I I actually had
01:36:37
more questions that I wanted to ask you but you were like very >> with the question keep it moving. You
01:36:42
can't hit a moving target. >> Yeah. Yeah. Damn it. I I missed out. I was trying to I was trying to convert
01:36:47
you. >> Hey, this is this has been great. This has been great. Um Yeah. Is Is this Is
01:36:54
it Is it what you expected when you reached out to me? >> Yeah, man. Honestly, like like when I
01:37:01
was a 15year-old, bro, I'll be honest. I hated people that look like you, you
01:37:07
know? Um like I had this resentment towards the white man. And it took me time to get away from that and to
01:37:15
realize like we're all human beings, man. >> We're all human beings. Nobody here in
01:37:20
this world is perfect. Everyone is trying to do what they can. >> Um and uh it's really good to have that
01:37:29
conversation with you, man. Because when I was in school, I was expelled from school from, you know, my principles
01:37:34
that look like you. Um and police officers that lock me up that look like you. But it's really good to sit down
01:37:41
here 10 years on >> seeing life completely different and to genuinely have a good conversation.
01:37:52
>> Well, I I can honestly say um not when I was 15, but let's say 10 15 years ago. I
01:37:58
suppose when you were 15. If I was on a plane and someone like you walked in, I would have been terrorist. Yeah. I would
01:38:03
have been a little bit nervous. I mean, oh, I got to keep an eye on that guy. I I I think back now and it's I think a
01:38:08
lot of people were the same. Maybe a lot of people wouldn't admit that, but a lot
01:38:11
of us were the same. And it's conditioning from the 9/11 attacks. And uh I'm embarrassed I'm embarrassed to
01:38:17
look back and think that I thought that way. >> Yeah. Yeah. Look, I I don't blame people
01:38:21
for that. Like it's pattern recognition, right? So when the news is telling you that this is the
01:38:28
pattern, this is the pattern, this is the pattern, you're going to feel that
01:38:31
way when you're out in society. It's a survival thing. Um I get it sometimes
01:38:36
again like I'm in the I'm in the plane sometimes and like before the plane
01:38:40
takes off I do like a dua. I do like a supplication, you know? Um I pray and maybe I have my prayer beads sometimes
01:38:47
and I'm just doing my prayer beads and uh people looking at me like, "Yo, who
01:38:52
this guy is? Double check this guy. >> Screen him again. Screen him again.
01:38:59
>> Not anymore though. Not anymore. >> You still get those looks, man. You
01:39:02
still get those looks people. >> Yeah, it's definitely old people. It's
01:39:05
it's the people that have been conditioned. That's what I'm saying. That's why I feel sorry for them.
01:39:09
>> Uh younger people don't act that way anymore. They've got social media.
01:39:13
They've they've been exposed to the truth. >> And um but it's it's definitely the
01:39:19
boomers. It's like the older older um generation. Well, Bice, this has been fantastic. It's been really cool. I
01:39:25
really appreciate you coming on. Um, >> especially um, being so open about some
01:39:30
of the crunchy stuff of your life, which I'm sure it's not nice to revisit.
01:39:34
>> Um, but it's been a really cool chat and I hope a lot of people get a lot from
01:39:37
this conversation. >> Likewise, man, I'm really glad the trajectory that you're on as well, um,
01:39:42
what you're trying to do with Pod Lab and, um, you know, the authenticity that
01:39:47
you're trying to live out your life. I appreciate that and I wish you all the
01:39:51
best my brother and uh big shout out to James as well, James Lachland for being the connect between us um and the
01:39:58
mutual. So yeah, man. Wish you all the best my brother. >> Yeah, that's that's one thing I love
01:40:02
about this podcast. Like it's um open so many doors to meet so many cool people.
01:40:07
>> I love it. >> But you're a great Kiwi brother. >> Thank you. Appreciate it, my man.