00:00:00
You went for the CEO role twice. >> I lost. I hate losing. And one of them
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got sick of me asking and he just said, "Chris, they did not choose you." That's
00:00:07
the answer. So, stop looking for it. >> Did you have imposter syndrome? >> Some days you go, there's quite a big
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call to make here. Our stores were getting attacked by groups of people going Armageddon's coming.
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>> Were you getting regular phone calls from um Dame Justindra? >> Never met or spoken to Justindra Adun.
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>> Really? >> Would it have been valuable? I think so. Someone else was not off mute and went
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for [ __ ] sake really loudly. And you've never had thousand people laughing on an
00:00:28
audio call. It was the stress reliever that everyone needed. My dad said, "If
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you pass a drunk in the street and they say you're ugly, are you ugly or are
00:00:35
they just drunk?" >> Are you proud of yourself? >> Struggle with the word, that line
00:00:38
between pride and arrogance. If anyone ever said to me, "You're arrogant," I'd
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be really upset. >> When the time comes that you pass away, what three words would you like family
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to say about you? >> Being a good parent, being someone who cared about people, someone who did okay
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in life, and then use that to do well for others. >> Oh, good. You're here. Come on. This is
00:00:57
the center of performance. Whenever there's a top performance in New Zealand, it all comes from here. That's
00:01:02
Lisa Carrington. She's been doing that for days. That's the boys who got the
00:01:06
hole in one in it again. Hey Finn, how's the performance going? >> Top tier.
00:01:13
>> Nice. This is our generate room. In here, you'll find our top performers
00:01:16
helping Kiwis maximize their Kiwi Saver investments. Get in there, Finn. >> Maximize. Generate.
00:01:23
>> Putting performance first. >> Chris Quinn, welcome to my podcast.
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Thank you, Kora. It's great to be here. This will be fascinating. >> Will it Why will it be fascinating?
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>> Well, I've been listening to a few and you know, as I said to you, I'm not sure
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all these famous people have been here, so I'm fascinated by this and what the
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questions will be. >> Oh, no. Well, it's an honor to have you here. Um CEO of Food Stuff's new um
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North Island. That's right. >> North Island. >> North Island. >> Uh 10 billion in turnover, 24,000 staff,
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400 plus stores. If Do you know exactly how many stores there are of each brand?
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>> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay. New World. >> New World. There is 156. >> Should be 157, mate. I live just around
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the corner. The whole team want to know when is the rebuild happening? >> Uh the rebuild of Vic Park. Yes. Look,
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what a tragedy that was. Um I was in a building in town on the day and man. Um saw the smoke rising and you think,
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"What is going on there?" And then your phone goes nuts and it's all on. Um so
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so incredibly sad because there's so many people I meet who go, "That was my
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pantry. That was my place." Um so we're well into design. sites cleared. We're
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building at six-star green, which means there's a few processes you need to make
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sure everything's cleaned up and done properly. Um I really really hope Christmas 27 that we'll be open and
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trading. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and yeah, it was my It's funny that
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you say it's um people call it the pantry cuz I live in the apartments just next to it. And um it's a people in the
00:02:44
building call it either the pantry or the wine fridge. >> Yes. >> Um but I I want to know Yeah. Did all
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the staff there that wanted jobs find jobs elsewhere in the company? >> Yeah. Look, it took a little while. Um,
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but we basically were able to land a plan for everybody. So lucky that Point Chevier was well underway in terms of
00:03:01
the build. So the timing of getting the team in there was just really good luck.
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But that's the thing about the co-op, you know, with all the individually family-owned stores is they all went,
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can we help? And look, I need a butcher, a baker, I could do with another checkout person, whatever it was.
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>> And they just pitched in. And we work out of the people team in the center
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working with the stores. and we managed to land a plan. There was a few for whom
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look you know that site doesn't work for where I live or that shift doesn't you
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know so there was always a little bit of complexity but you know I'm really proud
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of how the cooperative got together and made that happen. >> You got you got 24,000 staff um sort of
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um under you and the company some I don't know if you know specifics but Karen who was the barista there you
00:03:42
don't know what happened to her. >> I don't know exactly but if if she was a
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great barista in the middle of town in Oakland she would have been fine. She was she was wonderful and um she was at
00:03:51
the front of my mind when the uh when when the yeah the fire happened and it became apparent just how bad it was cuz
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uh I'd see her every morning for my coffee and I could tell just how much she loved working with those people at
00:04:00
that store. >> Yeah, they were a great tight team as happens in many many stores but you know
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it's just something about that fully customerf facing you know hardworking doing a great job. The energy in it and
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that's you know having an owner in the store really builds that culture. >> That's what you know we see that a lot.
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Pack and Save is another one of food stuff stores. How many pack and safe stores are there?
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>> There are 46, >> four squares, >> uh, about 165. >> Gilmore,
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>> eight. >> And Lorland, >> oh, North Island about 80, >> right?
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>> Yeah. >> Did I miss anything or is that is that all under the >> You've got the That's the brands. That's
00:04:38
what faces the our customers. Yeah. So, that's that's who it is. >> Quite often people go, "Oh, yeah, that
00:04:43
Worth's of yours." You go, "No, no, >> that's not ours." Um you need a dirty
00:04:48
word. >> You need to call Australia on that one. >> I'm I'm surprised you know um the exact
00:04:53
number of um stores for each of the brands. That's um that's quite in the
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weeds. >> Yeah, it's look it's but it's important right? You know we love it when we open
00:05:00
a new one. Uh sometimes particularly in Foursquare we've had a bit of change of
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stores and location. So it's just one of those things that you know you talk
00:05:07
about a bit so you get to know. >> The one question everyone wanted me to put to you is um can you give us your
00:05:13
best stickman impression? Uh if you ring my voicemail, you'll get a very good Sman impression because man
00:05:21
did it. Yeah, Paul did that back when I started. So uh no, I'm not very good at
00:05:26
that. >> Just a It's a meat week at pack and safe. >> It's a meat week at packing. It's See,
00:05:33
that's why they don't get me to do it. It's terrible. >> That's That's the moment that your um
00:05:37
your PA asked us to cut out of the podcast. >> So um leave it in >> beyond the title. Who is Chris Quinn?
00:05:44
Oh, look. Uh I I've sometimes when I stand up and you know you talk to groups
00:05:49
or people ask that I go, "Well, I'm a boy from Lower Hut." Um >> you know, uh born in Oakuckland but left
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before I think we I was two. Uh so I don't really, you know, remember that piece. Um
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>> my dad was a health inspector for the government. So there was a bit of
00:06:03
relocation. So we were in Hawks Bay for about 8 years. Uh and then Lower, you know, if you said, "Where are you from?"
00:06:09
I'd go Lower Wellington is where I grew up. um and went to school and secondary
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school and university. So that's sort of you know that's where it starts.
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>> Yeah. Um in researching this I I uh learned a bit about your parents. You
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lost them both painfully young, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. It was uh my dad was 50, I
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was 21. Uh and my mom at 60. Um so yeah, very young. I'm the oldest of three. So
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yeah, it was it was you know, particularly with dad going I think my brother who's a bit younger than me, he
00:06:41
was 11 when he passed. So yeah, it was a you know, it's a massive impact on any
00:06:45
family when that happens. Um and you learn so much um about you know your role as oldest. You learn a lot about uh
00:06:52
who your father was because I'm I'm trying to he passed on the 27th of December which you know terrible time of
00:06:59
year. Um, and so his funeral was not long after that, you know, and it's a time where a lot of people are away
00:07:06
normally and 6 or 700 people showed up and you sort of go, you know, as a 21-year-old, you, you know, your dad,
00:07:13
you know, dad's never a hero at 21, right? Everyone thinks they know more and you sort of go, wow, this, you know,
00:07:19
this is a whole new side and I didn't understand all of that story. So, you know, really, really impactful. Um, and
00:07:26
my mom, uh, was breast cancer. She was cleared for 7 years, then it came back. >> So,
00:07:31
>> what was what was the um cause of death for your dad? >> Uh was an aneurysm, a stroke. Um so, he
00:07:37
was quite >> subtle a big man and a heavy smoker. >> And you know, one of the things I've
00:07:42
never done is smoke. >> What impact did did that have on you? I'm just trying to put myself in your
00:07:48
shoes. Like, at at that age, I pro I probably thought I knew everything. So, probably wouldn't be for me until I got
00:07:53
a bit older that I'd understand the impact of it. Yeah, that's what they
00:07:56
say, you know, hire a teenager while they still know everything. So, um, yeah, look, you know, it was,
00:08:02
you know, obviously incredibly tough on my mom. Um, you know, with with three kids, um, you know, at 21, you're an
00:08:09
adult, but, you know, with three kids, I probably, you know, I remember I went through a bit of a phase of checking
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out. I just, you know, you get away from the situation and, you know, probably had some fun, but probably also, you
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know, caused a bit of havoc. Um and you know you you'd go through a bit of an
00:08:24
adjustment phase and then sort of grow up a little bit and come back. So it was you know um one of the most impactful
00:08:32
things and it sort of stuck in my mind was the year he passed. So in a single calendar year he had my 21st his 50th
00:08:38
and passed. Um I had the same year >> so my son 21 I turned 50 and you know
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you sort of weighs on your mind a bit. you're going, you know, the obviously
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the last bit didn't happen. >> Yeah. It must have been playing on your
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mind quite quite deeply. >> Like you you Yeah. You must have seen your son at 21 and think, "Shit, [ __ ]
00:08:58
that's that's young to lose your dad, to lose a parent." >> Yeah.
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>> Um you've probably never had comparisons in your life to Brad Thorne.
00:09:06
>> Correct. >> I had um I had Brad Thorne in for a podcast last week and he lost his dad
00:09:10
when he was 19. Um his dad was his like biggest fan, biggest cheerleader, biggest confidant.
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>> And uh his dad got got to see him play seven games for the Broncos um out of
00:09:21
his 500 game career. >> Do you um >> Yeah. Yeah. Your parents missed out on a
00:09:26
lot. >> Yeah. And and so did I, you know, because of And so did my kids because no
00:09:32
grandparents on my side. Um >> uh my son, who's 29 now, would have been
00:09:37
I think he was three when my mom passed, you know. So, um, >> you don't have any memories, eh?
00:09:43
>> Yeah. And I do I do remember my wife Sue was pregnant with our daughter. Um, and
00:09:48
she told her what what that it was a girl, you know, hadn't told me, >> but told her before she passed, which
00:09:55
was just one of those things that, you know, was really cool and really important that she did. Um,
00:10:00
>> but yeah, you you know, my dad wasn't a sports guy and and I probably, you know,
00:10:04
I was no sports hero. You I was probably fourth 15 at school. >> Oh, silver stream. that's competitive
00:10:10
school. >> Um and uh you know just his thing was um debating and speaking and he was a a
00:10:18
teacher essentially. You know he'd been in a profession then started to teach
00:10:21
the profession. >> Um and that was one thing you know we had oretry and debating contests at the
00:10:26
school and you know entered every year finished second or third every year. I remember the very last year so what's
00:10:31
that seven form? What do they call it now? Year 13. Um I wasn't going to do it. I'd said you know I'm sick of being
00:10:38
second. I'm not doing it. And he pushed me hard to do it. We won it cuz he, you
00:10:43
know, he coached me through it. And, you know, I just think back doesn't matter
00:10:46
what you're participating in, it's about an attitude that you just keep having a
00:10:50
go. >> And he was determined. >> Any any other um lessons from your parents that sort of stand out, things
00:10:57
that you sort of find you, you know, chirping in your head from time to time? >> Look, one of the things my dad used to
00:11:02
say was never have to cross the road. And it was about relationships with people. So it was sort of, you know, it
00:11:08
was don't ever leave something in a situation where if you saw that person walking towards you, you'd feel like you
00:11:12
had to >> get out of the way or not not bump into them. >> It's just such a simple thing to think
00:11:18
about. Um, and particularly as you go through a, you know, a career where you come into lots and lots of people with
00:11:23
lots and lots of opinions and, you know, sort of all sorts of views on the world
00:11:27
and that stuff, you just keep thinking about that. How can I leave this where I don't have to cross the road?
00:11:32
>> I've never heard that before. That's really good. Yeah. It's
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>> so it's like a preventative measure. Just don't let things get that bad.
00:11:38
>> Yeah. Or or at least be in a position where you go, I've I've done the right
00:11:41
thing. >> Whether they have or not, you know, that's in their hands. But,
00:11:45
>> you know, and I love the simplicity of it. You can remember it. >> So,
00:11:49
>> how are your kids now? You're an empty neester? >> Yes. Yeah, we are. Um,
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>> your daughter's an embryologist. >> Yes, she is. So, is um this comes from
00:11:59
being married to a preschool teacher. So, when you name kids, you have to choose names she hasn't hated.
00:12:04
So, what are the bad days? >> Well, yeah, there were a lot by the time we got to that, but um uh so she is a
00:12:11
clinical embryologist. She's in Melbourne in a fertility clinic. um uh incredibly proud, you know, um
00:12:18
>> you know, went from a kid that needed a little bit of help in the middle of her
00:12:21
school years to, you know, a masters in clinical embryology, which >> you know, and it's the thing that sticks
00:12:27
in my mind about that is at a point in her college time, a teacher found her magic, clicked with her, and turned her
00:12:34
on to science, and yeah, away she went. Um, so yeah, she's and and what I love
00:12:40
about so many kids I meet now, I'm very fortunate mine are this is they are doing a job that has a purpose that they
00:12:46
love that they're, you know, engaged and entertained by, you know, and it's so
00:12:50
cool. >> Yeah. That's one thing that um stood out to me because myself and my ex-wife, we
00:12:55
went through the um fertility treatment and IVF program and XE and donor sperm and all that and the embryologist, they
00:13:01
do they do a phenomenal job. >> Yeah, they do. And awesome work, too. She genuinely thinks about it as I'm
00:13:06
trying to help people have families who couldn't. >> Yeah. >> It's always a little bit disturbing when
00:13:11
you ring your daughter and she says, "I can't talk. I'm analyzing sperm."
00:13:16
>> So, the way they talk, they get um this isn't your daughter specifically, but
00:13:20
the embryologist I I dealt with, they'd give you a personal phone call say, "Oh,
00:13:23
we've got some really good-look sperm here. It's got a great head, a great
00:13:27
tail." Of course. >> And what about what about your son? Something to do with robotics.
00:13:33
>> Yes. So, uh, Kellas son's 29. Um, and he, uh, is a mechatronics engineer was
00:13:40
the qualification. We wouldn't have heard of it. Um, and I think when he started it at Oakland Union, it was
00:13:45
probably only 2 years old as a degree. So, it was quite a fresh thing. Um, and I think in New Zealand, only Oakland and
00:13:51
Canterbury teach it at this point. Um, but it's a combination of mechanical engineering, robotics, computer
00:13:57
engineering, AI, all of those things, which you sort of look at it and go, if there was ever a degree for the future,
00:14:02
it's it's right there. Um, so yeah, he loved it. A 4-year degree at Oakland and
00:14:08
then um has been with Zuru ever since with the Moberry brothers um in their business all over the world doing some
00:14:16
really cool things. >> Incredible. So for you, what does an average day look like? I heard I think
00:14:20
you've been on as far as I'm aware like one other podcast and uh you talked
00:14:24
about swimming at 5 in the morning with water waterproof ear plugs in. >> Oh,
00:14:30
are you still in your swimming era? >> Uh no, that happened after a small incident on a mountain bike. Um
00:14:34
>> Oh, broken leg at Mo. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh no, it wasn't Moafu. That
00:14:38
would have been really exciting. Um no, I've done Mo Tapu, but not that one.
00:14:42
That was it was a different place and ride, but I broke a leg in nine places. So the the recovery included how do you
00:14:48
get moving again? and swimming's fantastic for that. So that was a little while while food stuffs was still in its
00:14:54
60 year old building in Mount Roscoll. Um I'd go to the Mount Rosal pools in
00:14:57
the morning. But no, now um you know a typical day I' I'd most you know 3 4
00:15:03
days a week if I'm if I'm doing good I get to a gym class about 6:30 in the
00:15:07
morning. >> Uh it's fantastic. It's a BFT you know so it's just it's a 40 class 45 minute
00:15:13
thing. Um, and it's in Munger and I love being there and love being the crowd.
00:15:19
Um, I'm possibly the only white guy in the room and that's fantastic. Um, and
00:15:23
it's such a great crew of people who there's no no sort of heroes. You don't
00:15:28
feel like I have to be a endurance athlete to be here. Um, and they're all just having a good time and supporting
00:15:33
each other and it's a nice cool way to start the day. Um >> then it's you know our offices are by
00:15:39
the airport at the landing now which is an incredible part of Oakland in terms of the buildout of businesses there. Um
00:15:45
>> and you know it's it's into it every morning. Uh my leadership team and I we
00:15:51
have a thing we call heartbeat. So we just on a call at 8:30 just going does anything happen safety wise overnight
00:15:57
because we run a big physical operation a lot of stores a lot of people. uh then
00:16:01
what's happening with retailing, what's happening with wholesaling, and then any
00:16:04
issues because it's for me that's a lot about how fast things, you know, every
00:16:09
24 hours we're together, we can make decisions, we can move things along, we
00:16:12
can trade. So that's how the day starts. >> Starting the day with exercise, it's a
00:16:17
win, isn't it? You must have to get up really early, though. You live like half
00:16:20
an hour away from where you work. >> Yeah. It's about a 5:00 a.m. alarm. Yep.
00:16:24
Yep. And >> and your body clock, it lets you down, right? Cuz on the day you go, you know
00:16:28
what? I'm just not feeling I'm going to sleep in. doesn't happen. So, and I
00:16:32
don't know how it does it, but Saturday mornings it doesn't. So, it's Yeah. But
00:16:37
no, it's a feelood way to start the day. >> Yeah. What time are you normally in bed?
00:16:41
>> Uh, about midnight. >> Oh my god. Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Why are you reading documents, doing
00:16:47
work or? >> Yeah. Working a bit. I'm trying to be, you know, it's absolutely true. And I'm
00:16:51
trying to be more disciplined about cutting the blue light >> an hour before sleep, you know, and just
00:16:56
read or, you know, do something hard copy. Um but yeah, that's usually about
00:17:00
it. >> It's tough though, isn't it? Because in a job like yours, there must just always
00:17:03
be stuff you can do. You're always behind. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Demand always exceeds
00:17:08
supply. It's just um and and one of the best questions you could be asking yourself is sort of what
00:17:15
is this, you know, what's the output of this? Why are we doing this or we just
00:17:18
doing? Because being busy is not hard. >> You know, being impactful, that's the
00:17:24
real question. >> How did you end up um chairman of the board of Guilt Trap? Don't you have
00:17:28
enough on your plate? Are you no good at saying no? >> Come to that. Um, look, um, I, you know,
00:17:36
one of the things, you know, I've never worked outside of New Zealand. Traveled
00:17:40
heaps, but never worked outside of New Zealand. I have a real passion for New Zealanders, you know, I just think
00:17:45
there's something about what we do where we punch above our weight in the world.
00:17:48
And there's so many stories about that. >> Uh, and, you know, so you look around,
00:17:52
you see great New Zealand stories. It's why I sat on the board of the Ice House
00:17:56
for a long time. Uh, and look, the the, you know, cars is a personal passion, but also the Guilt Trap family business.
00:18:02
You know, Sir Collins started that in 1966. Uh, and his sons now own and run the
00:18:08
business. You know, it's another great New Zealand story. And I I know uh the
00:18:13
sons and and it was just one of these classic New Zealand moments. I was in a coffee shop in their building. One of
00:18:18
them walked past. We had a chat about something else I was looking at and he said, "Oh, are you looking for a board
00:18:22
seat?" And I said, "Well, I am cuz I believe CEOs should have one outside of
00:18:27
their job cuz I think it just keeps your mind open." And he said, "Oh, well,
00:18:30
we're looking for a director." And that was it. You know, in couple of years as
00:18:35
director, then, you know, as Colin became not working on the board, you know, it just happened. Um,
00:18:41
>> how did that conversation go down with your wife? >> Um, she just, yeah, I roll, you know,
00:18:45
like and then worried about how many I was going to buy, I think. Um but it's
00:18:51
there's quite a bit of work involved with those things. I sort of had no idea, but I had um Dame Joan Withers in
00:18:55
for a podcast last week and she's um like a serial um board member or board chair. Um she was explaining to me like
00:19:02
the 300page documents that she's got to read before these meetings and the due
00:19:06
diligence involved like it's not >> it's not just rock in and wing it, is
00:19:10
it? >> No. I think the old days and without any offense to lawyers and accountants sort
00:19:14
of turning up and you know having lunch and saying well done that that's long
00:19:18
gone. director's responsibilities are serious and so they should be um >> you know you are there on behalf of the
00:19:24
shareholders protecting their interests and if you're not doing that that's you
00:19:27
know that's not responsible so >> so I know Dame Joan and others you know
00:19:32
very experienced very capable uh directors and governors and chairs um it's great it I personally find it great
00:19:39
to be a CEO in one world and a chairman in another because I can sometimes see how bad I am at either
00:19:46
or you know but it's it's certainly you going, "Oh, yeah. I was a real dick
00:19:49
about that." Um, and so it does teach you the difference between governance
00:19:54
and management and to respect both roles and to try and play your role really, really well.
00:20:00
>> I mean, what sort of Can you think of any examples of things that you've been
00:20:03
you you've been a real dick about? I mean, you've been really successful in
00:20:06
your corporate career. Uh look, you know, it it's there are plenty of along the way you go, you
00:20:12
know, I made that mistake, you know, and quite often it's about people's
00:20:16
situations where sometimes you go, you know, I just really believe in the person. I really think they can turn
00:20:21
this around or they can be different. >> Quite often the respectful thing to do
00:20:25
is to call it and say, "Look, let's get you somewhere where you can be successful, but it's not there." Um, and
00:20:31
you know, be brave about that. I think that's quite often sometimes when you
00:20:35
you know you're right there's a great saying that said the most important
00:20:38
capability about leadership is you never stop learning >> and leaders that turn up and go good
00:20:43
news I know everything that's not helpful >> and you know and and I can think of
00:20:48
moments where you've gone I'm just going in to start you know giving my view or
00:20:52
issuing a >> you know a decision without learning that's when you get it wrong. Well, I've
00:20:57
sort of found not just leadership specific, but in my life, like the older I get and the more I know, the realize
00:21:02
the more I have to learn. >> Yeah. And isn't that wonderful? >> Oh, absolutely. Thank goodness.
00:21:08
>> 20 I thought I knew it all. >> Yes. >> I cringe. I pity that kid.
00:21:14
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> But that, you know, also you got to have that energy, don't you? And you got to,
00:21:18
you know, as long as you don't break anything, you just bump your way down the hallway and keep going.
00:21:22
>> Yeah. Absolutely. So, we're uh recording this podcast, just to time stamp it, in
00:21:27
um the middle of February 2026. And uh I was preparing for the the chat yesterday
00:21:31
and as I was doing so, I got a popup on my phone. Um the headline was New Zealand food prices recently had their
00:21:38
biggest monthly rise in four years. When um when there's a headline like that,
00:21:42
which is quite frequently, and you're part of the news cycle, what do you feel?
00:21:46
Uh look, you're firstly very aware that 4 million times a week New Zealanders
00:21:51
shop in our stores or on our websites or online. So, you know, you think about our 24,000 people, they get a lot of
00:21:58
commentary, a lot of pokes, a lot of questions, a lot of, you know, semiattacks from everywhere.
00:22:05
Yeah, they are the front line. >> In fact, an economist in Australia we worked with said it perfectly. He said,
00:22:11
"You guys are not the cause of inflation, but you're on the front line of inflation." I thought it was just
00:22:16
such a simple way to think about it. So, the first thing is, you know, if you are
00:22:21
truly committed to being a customer organization, you got to go that is a problem for every New Zealand household.
00:22:26
Like, don't don't start defending yourself. You got to go first. That's a
00:22:30
real problem for New Zealand households. You know, it is tough out there. We have
00:22:34
>> 24,000 families in our care. We know a lot about what life is like for them and
00:22:40
you know everything about the household bill, the insurance, the rates, the electricity, food, it's all had a lot of
00:22:46
pressure in the last few years. So that's the first thing is you go accept and own that it is a problem for your
00:22:52
customers and you need to care about it. Um secondly then you go okay first thing
00:22:56
would be good is make sure we understand what has happened and why and where it's
00:22:59
come from. Um, and that's been a piece that that we've been doing for a while
00:23:03
that we believe is only one in the world because we've traveled a lot and shared
00:23:07
it with other retailers and no one else has done it. But we've been publishing
00:23:10
for over 3 years simply how much has our price gone up by, how much has the cost
00:23:15
of the products from our suppliers gone up by and what's happened to food price
00:23:18
inflation overall in the market and on average we have been the lowest of those three. So the first job you do is say
00:23:24
are you making a difference? Like we're doing everything we can to keep prices
00:23:28
fair and and valuable. So we do, you know, and love that we've got a pack and
00:23:32
save story that plays really strong into that. Uh, and you know, look at all the
00:23:37
time what's happening with the price increases coming from our suppliers. And
00:23:41
I think, you know, is even, you know, that story played through to radio this morning and, you know, a good part of
00:23:47
the commentary was, hey, look, red meat, you know, our products are in demand all
00:23:50
over the world. That's fantastic, but we pay the same price the world pays. Dairy
00:23:54
is the same. you know, chocolate's gone through the roof because Coco's, you
00:23:58
know, had huge price increases from all over the world. So, partners of ours like Whitkers just have to go, look, you
00:24:04
know, we got to keep making the same quality, which means we're going to have
00:24:07
to put the price up. >> So, that's, you know, you you then go into that and then you start thinking
00:24:12
about how can we help our customers with this problem. So, how do we provide as much advice as we can about how you buy
00:24:19
in season, how you buy fresh stuff, you know, when it's in good supply rather
00:24:23
than when it's rare? How do we keep finding alternatives? And that's a real
00:24:27
balance. You know, do you bring in a global product or use the local one? >> Where does the value sit in that?
00:24:33
>> So, it's, you know, it's a complex supply chain with a lot going on. Uh,
00:24:37
and we're accountable for being transparent about what our prices are doing, which we've tried to do.
00:24:42
>> Yeah. You mentioned it was on the radio this morning. I heard the same chat. I
00:24:46
was driving to the gym maybe about 6:30 and Mike Hosking was um speaking to someone about it. Um yeah, the media
00:24:52
does tend to paint you as as um not you specifically, but I suppose food staffs and woolworths as the bad guys. Are you
00:24:58
the bad guys? Look, no, we're not the bad guys, you know. Um now, no, the media are reflecting a mood of of their
00:25:07
readers and of consumers and also a lot of where the politics is at on these subjects. uh and all over the world cost
00:25:14
of living has been a major issue since co basically um and and so you know it's
00:25:20
reflected everywhere. I I landed in Ireland last late October last year and first breakfast I went to in the hotel
00:25:27
the Irish Times is on the table on the front cover it says food prices is going up for Christmas you know and part of me
00:25:32
went well it's not just us but but so this is a global problem um and it is caused by what's going on in
00:25:41
inflation globally and you know if there was one word every New Zealander has heard in the last few years it's
00:25:46
inflation >> and one word they've felt on their households it's inflation
00:25:50
>> you Now some of the conversation shifting from is this a cost problem or
00:25:54
is it a productivity and income problem because you know should we be trying to focus on how we grow a country where our
00:26:00
jobs are more valuable where people are paid more but at the end of the day the fundamental issue is I should be able to
00:26:06
if we're doing a decent job earning a decent salary I should be able to have a
00:26:10
decent life >> and we've got to look at everything that affects that and make a difference.
00:26:15
>> Um are we the bad guys? Look, that question really goes to are we making
00:26:20
profit more than we should be in a fair market? And you know, we did a simple thing for a few years now. We said if
00:26:26
you pay a dollar in store, our profit after tax is 3.6. And that's, you know,
00:26:33
>> and I think it's one of the things not many people know about is how big a
00:26:38
business a supermarket is. You know, if you look at a pack and save, we're talking about 400 plus staff. We're
00:26:44
talking about tens of millions of dollars of investment and equipment and building and stock and all of those
00:26:50
things. We're talking about, you know, a dozen or so liters of that business.
00:26:54
We're talking about, you know, each week hundreds of thousands of cartons of
00:26:58
product moving through. It's a decentsiz business. Making 3.6 cents after paying
00:27:04
tax is fair. Compares pretty well to the rest of the world. It is not out of whack. M
00:27:11
>> does it make you happy when the banks are in the the firing line and not you?
00:27:14
>> No. Um look, it's a short game if you go long as someone else has been kicked
00:27:20
harder, we're okay. Um >> we you know, we want our customers to be happy with what we do.
00:27:26
>> I I truly believe I've been around this organization 10 years. Um >> as you probably know, I was in Telecom
00:27:32
and Spark before that. So, I've had a fun time with brands through my whole career because there were times when
00:27:38
they were hated, too. >> Um, and you know, when you when you look back at it, um, the real issue is how do
00:27:44
we get New Zealanders to be one comfortable that what they are getting from New Zealand companies is good and
00:27:50
fair cuz we compare our retail offerings out of our brands to many in the world and I think we can genuinely say they're
00:27:56
as good as some of the world's best. Um, and I, you know, you store visit, we've
00:28:00
got people coming down to see it. So that's, you know, it's a long flight
00:28:04
and, you know, you think, why would they do that? >> I think the other thing is, you know,
00:28:09
New Zealand's at a really interesting moment and this thing keeps going through my head, which is it's really
00:28:13
hard to build something up while you're punching down. >> And there's a lot of societal and
00:28:19
political punching down going on. We need to be focused on building something up.
00:28:25
>> 100%. Yeah, absolutely. I've had um I've been fortunate enough to have quite a few um successful
00:28:31
entrepreneurs on the podcast. Actually, probably the big three of New Zealand, Anna Mo, Sir Peter Beck, and um Sir
00:28:37
Robert, and they all have the same thing in common, that same sort of attitude about, you know, we need to think better
00:28:42
and we need to be more positive. >> Um you build bigger tables, not bigger
00:28:46
walls to keep people away from the table. >> These um when you're required to front
00:28:51
up for these interviews on a on a personal level, like how do you feel? You get anxious, you sleepless nights
00:28:56
the night before. Don't get anxious or sleepless. No. Um I you know you think
00:29:01
about one of the things I keep thinking about is how do you build connection? I think it's one of the critical
00:29:05
leadership things. So you know cuz you do see some leaders talk in a language or a style that you know I keep thinking
00:29:12
about who's listening or who am I talking to >> and how do I respectfully connect with
00:29:17
them and and sort of >> and the other thing I think about is you know if a question gets asked answer yes
00:29:22
or no >> you know like like just keep it real keep it authentic. Um, and also
00:29:28
sometimes there's great power in saying I don't know >> because you know there's a vulnerability
00:29:32
in that that I think is I respect in people and they just go I don't know. I'm not going to even try and make it
00:29:36
up. >> Um, so but also you know I do feel like part of my job is to do something on
00:29:43
behalf of our team so that someone stands up for them because that's one of the things about all of this noise about
00:29:50
the supermarket industry. You know, it's incredibly hard for a 16-year-old on
00:29:54
checkout, you know, and one of the things I love about our business is so many, you know, like the number of
00:29:59
people you meet who said my after school job was >> New World or Pack and Save or something.
00:30:04
>> Food, I'm old. >> Yeah. Yeah. There you go. >> But I'll tell you, it was the most
00:30:07
glorious couple of years of my life. >> I went to an old boy school, Palmy Boys
00:30:11
High, and it's the um the closest interaction I had with girls at that stage of my life. And from a social
00:30:16
aspect, I loved it. I started off as a packer, ended up being a checkout operator. Loved it.
00:30:20
>> Yep. And look, you know, my first paid job was in retail in a paint wallpaper
00:30:24
shop. Um, and then started doing nightfall in a walls and lower hut. Don't tell anyone.
00:30:30
And you know, they are fantastic jobs. You learn how to work hard. You learn how to be productive.
00:30:36
>> You learn how to engage with people and customers. You learn what standards look
00:30:39
like. You know, so many things you learn from that that you know, you may not pick up in an office. M when when when
00:30:45
you do a grocery shop, maybe it's a at a four square over the summer holidays,
00:30:49
like you're away from home. Um what do you see in a store that the rest of us
00:30:54
wouldn't see? >> Look, I think you uh you see, you know, the different departments and Foursquare
00:30:59
is a great example, particularly over summer when it's under pressure, right?
00:31:02
They're a small building pumping >> two, three times the volume that they
00:31:05
might during the year. So, it's, you know, huge respect for those teams in those regions and those owners that make
00:31:11
that work. Um and and so what you see you know firstly fresh matters most right most stores you walk on to produce
00:31:18
and fruit and veg first it's growing as a category it's what people you know to
00:31:23
be honest a barcoded product a packet of wheat books or a packet of biscuits you
00:31:27
know they are what they are where you make a difference is in those fresh departments so that's the first thing
00:31:32
you see is you know am I seeing you know is it attractive is it engaging is it good quality product is it displayed
00:31:39
well have they got the range those are the sort of things you quickly assess. >> Just think as I say all this, my wife
00:31:44
will be laughing going, "What the hell would he know?" Um, and then you notice retail
00:31:50
standards. So, you can look at a shelf and go, is it gappy? Is it full? You know, is it clean and good to go? Uh,
00:31:56
you notice the team, you know, are the team sort of engaging? Are they thinking about customers around them? You notice
00:32:02
engagement at checkout. So, all of those things. Then you start getting into next
00:32:06
level. You know, is price being displayed really clearly. Are people getting the signals about where the
00:32:11
deals are? So, there's all these things, but you know, full, fresh, and friendly
00:32:17
is a great start for any grocery store. >> Do um do many of the staff in these
00:32:22
stores know who you are? >> More and more. Yeah. >> How's that? Like, do you notice um
00:32:28
>> look, so not knowing names, you know, it's a lot wear name badges. Thank
00:32:32
goodness. Um and I've I've probably learned over the years just to go, "Hey,
00:32:35
look, sorry, you you know, what's your name? What do you do?" you know, cuz no
00:32:40
point in pretending otherwise or making it awkward. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, you know, you do notice. Um
00:32:45
and you know, sometimes you get followed around the store because they want to show you something or tell you
00:32:48
something, which is great, you know, cuz they're proud of what they do, >> you know, incredible people. And
00:32:54
>> and you know, as I say, the last few years has been a bit tough, you know,
00:32:57
for them socially, you know, at sports or church or social to say, you know, I work for this store or that store cuz
00:33:04
people have had a headful of opinions. >> Really? Yeah. Is it that bad? >> Yep. Yep. It's it's the one thing, you
00:33:10
know, it's there is a lot of feedback. It's it is better now, you know, but in
00:33:16
the last 12 to 18 months, it's been, you know, and then there's been the whole
00:33:19
retail crime issue and how we keep our people safe because they deserve to be able to work safe.
00:33:25
Well, yeah, I mentioned that pop-up, the news popup I got yesterday in relation to grocery store prices, but I got
00:33:30
another one about an hour after that about someone that was in court for an incident at a West Oakland supermarket
00:33:35
um that was shoplifting and then assaulted staff with an umbrella. >> Yes.
00:33:38
>> Is this like a a daily thing, a weekly thing? >> Oh, yeah. It is around 5,000 times a
00:33:42
quarter >> in the North Island. >> Unbelievable. Yeah. >> How many of these like make it to your
00:33:50
level? uh the the anything that turns into violence I hear about. So every morning part of that heartbeat is safety
00:33:57
and then you hear about any incidences in store. So you know not too many weeks go by where I'm not hearing about a
00:34:04
weapon pulled um where I'm not hearing about a a scuffle or you know a physical
00:34:09
event um or not hearing about a a break or you know some sort of raid on the store. And it's when you've got 353
00:34:17
stores across the network, you know, this is what's happening out there. >> And it is, it has, you know, retail
00:34:23
crime has no address. It's everywhere. Um, so any any misbelief people have that it's sort of happening in some
00:34:30
suburb versus other suburbs, that's not true. >> Yeah. Well, there was an incident in St.
00:34:34
Hel Square four maybe three, four years ago where someone came in and uh with a knife and was like um attacking
00:34:41
customers and stuff. >> Had stabbed a customer. >> Yeah. >> Yep. I I I just can't imagine how
00:34:46
traumatic that would be for the staff involved. >> Oh, incredible. Yeah. Like like
00:34:49
>> and it is, you know, you think, you know, the fact we have to train people
00:34:52
how to deescalate these situations, you know, it's a supermarket. You know what,
00:34:56
you know, what on earth? And it's what led us to we did quite a lot of work in
00:35:00
the last couple of years using facial recognition technology and developing that as a process and a policy with the
00:35:06
privacy commission because I look at what we're doing and you know and some have stabroof vests some you know and
00:35:14
you go they're all for after an incident has started how do we prevent >> you know the the safest thing to do is
00:35:19
hide the mattress not put out the fire >> so how do we bring that forward and
00:35:23
there's some really simple stuff you know it's amazing like a simple difference being greeted at the front
00:35:27
door makes because that instantly creates a bit of okay I've I've engaged
00:35:32
with another person I'm not just walking in sort of without any humanity uh and
00:35:38
then you know but facial recognition so it's a very simple thing someone has
00:35:41
been barred from the store previously for a violent or aggressive act and we've trespassed them then we say you
00:35:47
can't come in the facial recognition picks them up an entry two managers engage and just say hey Dom you know
00:35:53
you're not supposed to be here come on on your way that is the most successful
00:35:57
that reduced retail crime in our stores 16%. >> Yeah. >> So made our people safer and made
00:36:02
customers safer. >> If you could um change one structural thing about New Zealand's grocery sector
00:36:06
overnight, what would it be? >> Look, one structural thing I would really test for all of the regulation we
00:36:17
work under that it has a benefit for consumers. You know, this industry is like every other industry. We've got to
00:36:22
get cost out of it to be able to do a better job on price and value. things that add cost in then don't help us be
00:36:29
lower on price. Um the other thing, you know, we just got to understand who we are. So I we took some of our owners to
00:36:36
Italy last year and saw a whole bunch of stores so that we could learn and pick up ideas and think about our future
00:36:41
design of some of our stores and you walk the aisles of a a big supermarket in Italy, you know, and there's an aisle
00:36:47
of amazing breads or there's an aisle of amazing salami or cheeses or those things and you'll go, "Wow, that would
00:36:51
work." And I just reminded everyone in Italy there are 202 people per square
00:36:56
kilometer. In New Zealand there are 20 >> which is we love. That's what makes New
00:37:01
Zealand. But you also just got to go okay how does that change how you regulate and operate our industries to
00:37:07
be the best they can be. >> So just adjusting for that it's not a structural thing but the one other thing
00:37:14
I really wish everyone would understand is what a cooperative is. You know because because even people say you know
00:37:20
24,000 people work for you. don't you know about 2,000 do the other 22,000 work for the families that own each of
00:37:26
the stores and sometimes people talk about a duopoly in New Zealand they go it's Walworth and food stuffs
00:37:34
>> um our stores you know this is it's like every New Zealand person who you know
00:37:38
we're competitive as people I believe so every one of our stores they care much
00:37:43
more about beating another one of our stores than they do about beating wars trust me
00:37:47
>> I was gonna I was gonna ask you that like is is it quite tribal like uh It's
00:37:51
it's like a family, right? So when needed, they band together beautifully and very strongly. Otherwise, fight like
00:37:58
hell, >> you know. >> Yeah. It's just >> we hate the Aussies, but uh if push
00:38:02
comes to shove, we're there. >> If we've got a common enemy, all good.
00:38:05
Meantime, yeah. Um and you know, if we want something, you know, if we're focused on something improving, just
00:38:12
publish a list of the best one to the worst one >> of ours and stand back >> and the, you know, the competitive
00:38:18
nature of each of the owners takes over. They just all strive to be better. >> So it's, you know, pack and save
00:38:23
competes with New World and then they compete with each other. So there is a natural competitive effect in the market
00:38:30
that isn't well understood. >> Jess, you're into how long you been in
00:38:32
the role now? Like 11 years. 10 years. >> 10 years. September 2015. So a little
00:38:37
bit more than 10. >> She we've been um we've been going for 37 minutes. There's so much to talk
00:38:41
about. We might have to go back to the beginning and then build back up to it. things like um I didn't really sort of
00:38:46
think about this until I was prepping for the podcast yesterday, but a phrase like supply chain like before 2020 I
00:38:51
don't think I'd ever heard or use that phrase now it's in the common sort of
00:38:54
vernacular >> but yeah um yeah one more before we we move on um >> do you do you use a new world club card
00:39:00
or you know you don't worry about it >> no I do absolutely >> uh for for a couple of reasons one
00:39:07
because I need to know what a customer's seeing you know so we walk stores like
00:39:12
you know part of My diary is a day a month I'm on the road visiting a region
00:39:16
and seeing every store I possibly can because if if I lose contact with that then everything else starts to lose
00:39:22
context and and accuracy. Um so using a club card is part of that experience. You know the other one is using our
00:39:28
online shopping. If you don't use it then you don't know what a customer is
00:39:31
seeing. >> So you must be doing things that customers are doing all the time. And
00:39:35
just quickly back to that you know not knowing the word supply chain the word I love the most that came out of that time
00:39:40
is essential worker. Um because you know these these folks who are the most important you know we
00:39:46
you know in our building our cafeteria is shared with our warehouse team and our office team. So there's high visas
00:39:53
and you know shirts sitting around and that is one of the most important parts about culture is that you know every job
00:40:00
is valued and the coolest thing out of that was people went essential workers is is something to be proud of and being
00:40:07
able to tell those members of our team what you do matters to families just like yours really mattered.
00:40:12
>> Yeah. I I found it particularly heartbreaking a second ago where you talked about some of the staff like
00:40:16
getting a bollocking at church or whatever because they do they do they do a great job. You talk about the culture.
00:40:21
Um, having been in the position where I live right next door to a supermarket, um, I I can I can see how much um, the
00:40:29
comradeship and the culture meant to those staff that work there. It wasn't just a job, it was like a community.
00:40:34
>> Yeah, absolutely it is. And and they've, you know, we spend at least a third of
00:40:38
our lives at work. So, you know, relationships, children, changes, tragedies would have all happened in the
00:40:45
lunchroom, >> you know, and all been discussed and supported and thought about. one of the
00:40:50
nicest things that's happened in in my time and I'm very careful never to claim
00:40:54
credit for something I didn't do. So, you know, I always try and go the you know, the team did this, but this is one
00:41:00
I did pick up and sponsored at least and then got a lot of people to do. But, um,
00:41:04
we had a very early on in my time, we had a real tragedy with one of the leadership team got sick and passed from
00:41:10
cancer. >> Um, and what the organization did in response to that to support his family
00:41:15
was incredible. um it meant that his three kids got educated right through to the Indian university.
00:41:21
>> So it was you know and you sort of look at that and go I'm proud of that and
00:41:25
then you went why just for that given we've got 24,000 people there's so many
00:41:29
of these stories going on. >> So build a thing called the foodies foundation. So basically what it does is
00:41:35
it's for our 24,000 families. Uh and a lot of us put money in out of pay regularly. You're just you know just
00:41:43
payroll giving. We run a lot of fundraising events. We run big auctions and our owners, you know, have a couple
00:41:48
of wines, then buy stuff they shouldn't for more than they ever should. And it
00:41:52
just puts money in the tin for this amazing foundation. Um, and to date, I I didn't check the number before, but
00:41:57
it'll be nearly 1,000 families supported um across 5 years. Um, and basically
00:42:04
what it does is if an issue hits, so there's a domestic violence or there's a
00:42:08
diagnosis or something, they can contact uh our trustees who are just people from
00:42:13
all over the organization. It's not a hierarchical thing. And just say, "I'm
00:42:17
in trouble. I need help." And they can get $5,000 in their hands in 24 hours.
00:42:21
>> Wow. That's so cool. >> Yeah. And it's, you know, it just keeps
00:42:25
going in the organization. People pick it up and take it forward, run it, put their time into it, you know, and it and
00:42:31
it delivers for people in amazing situations >> and tragic situations. >> Oh, nice stuff. Thanks for sharing that,
00:42:38
Chris. Um, we touched upon your childhood and your parents um earlier, but um I heard a story. Were you
00:42:44
headunted to be head boy of St. Pat? I've never ever heard of this happening
00:42:50
before. It's probably overstating it. >> Shoulder tap, >> but shoulder tap. Yeah, it was it I
00:42:55
can't remember where I said it. I don't know how you found out. Um but you know,
00:42:59
I was thinking about, you know, leadership and when you first get challenged with it. Um and St. Pat
00:43:04
Silverstream was a boarding school and day school. So there was a head boy of each, you know, sort of one of each. And
00:43:09
and a fantastic guy, Tony Egan was the head uh border. Um and I remember in the last week of six form, one of the you
00:43:17
know, one of the priests saying, "Hey, are you coming back next year because
00:43:20
we'd like to talk to you about this?" And you're like, you know, "Have I just
00:43:23
been headunted? What was the package?" Nothing. Um so >> terrible negotiation. Good lesson there.
00:43:31
>> Yeah. But um yeah, it was you just sort of I don't think until that point I'd
00:43:36
ever thought that I was someone who would you know be like that or you know stand out. Um
00:43:42
>> you never really considered that you know I never thought about running at it
00:43:45
or or doing it. You just went, "Oh, okay." >> You know, yes. >> Well, a school like that um like there's
00:43:51
a lot of testosterone. There's a lot of um a lot of alpha sort of males, a lot
00:43:55
of big personalities. What made you stand out? Will you do you think do you think leaders are like born or made?
00:44:02
>> Uh I I do think in the end there's some things you can't make. >> Um so there's some basic you know I
00:44:10
think about leadership you know everyone says what do you think leadership is and
00:44:12
you go look it's it's a a lot of things but it is a set of behaviors not a set
00:44:17
of tasks. So someone who's made a manager is not a leader. That's just you've just been made a manager.
00:44:23
Leadership is your choice about your behaviors. Uh, and the simplest definition I've ever sort of found and
00:44:29
stuck to is connection, you know, so being really connected, the ability to engage and to know customers, people,
00:44:35
teams, whatever stakeholders. Um, clarity because in a in a busier and busier and busier world, leadership's a
00:44:42
bit about going, you know what, we're going there, whatever there is. And then
00:44:46
the ability to generate and deliver action. So, you know, making people move forward, getting somewhere, monitoring
00:44:52
it, supporting it, getting a result. So, it's connection, clarity, and action.
00:44:57
Um, I still don't know why I got got picked out in six months. >> Yeah. Why? Yeah. I mean, the um the
00:45:03
brother or the priest must have seen something in you that maybe you couldn't
00:45:06
even see in yourself at that point. >> I think a lot of leadership now and I
00:45:10
think it doesn't matter what your style is cuz everyone's style is different,
00:45:14
you know, but communication is inescapable in leadership. If you can't connect through communication, it's
00:45:20
really that's going to be a problem. Um, so I do think maybe that was the bit
00:45:25
that stood out a bit. Um, when I look back, you know, I go, if if if I'm any
00:45:30
good at anything, one of the things is sort of communicating with some authenticity and clarity out of quite
00:45:37
complex pieces. You know, I can sometimes hear a whole lot of stuff and go, look, I think this is about donk and
00:45:43
you know, >> um, so maybe you >> were you always pretty good at that
00:45:47
communication aspect or is that something you've had to work on? >> I've definitely had to work on. Yeah.
00:45:51
like you know I was lucky you know it was a college that had you know appreciation for arts as much as sport
00:45:59
so you or debating things like that were all part of what everybody did you know
00:46:03
you know it didn't make you soft um and um you know so it was great to you know
00:46:08
just do that I did a bit of that at university as well and you just sort of you know
00:46:12
>> yeah I think if there is something I'm lucky to have it's a it's a
00:46:15
communication ability >> yeah so you you went to university studied accounting and law What did you
00:46:21
want to be? >> Oh, employed. So, um, look, you know, a business felt right. Accounting seemed
00:46:30
like a profession that would, you know, go some way. Law was probably more of a interest and passion. You know, I was
00:46:36
quite, you know, I enjoyed it. Um, and, you know, first job was was in a, you know, very much an accounting role. You
00:46:43
know, it was in a in a paint factory, ICI paints in Gracefield in Lower Hut. Um, and you learned the very basics of
00:46:49
how a product is made and how it's transitioned through channels. >> It funny, one of the things we did there
00:46:55
was take the retail businesses and franchise them out, you know, to independent owners. I look back now and
00:47:00
go, you know, it's such a New Zealand model. >> From there, did you go to is that when
00:47:06
you went to Telecom? >> No, there was two roughly two-year roles. So when I finished university
00:47:12
went to ICI paints and Gracefield as a um a divisional accountant or company accountant and then I went to Mel as in
00:47:19
an accounting roles uh supporting the CFO that was a a small technology company sort of less than 100 people um
00:47:27
right at the beginning of big you know PABX systems and data systems and things like that. um a lot of fun, you know,
00:47:34
and and got connected with the world of sales and the world of marketing and you
00:47:39
know, some really large characters and some pretty outrageous behaviors and but also the technology cycles were moving
00:47:46
fast and they missed the beginning of call center which meant the business um they ended up deciding to pull out of
00:47:52
New Zealand. We sold the rights for the technology to distribute it to telecom >> and that's where that move happened.
00:47:59
>> So what year was that? Uh 1991, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What was telecom like when you
00:48:05
first joined? >> Uh so different. Um there were five telecoms. So it was Telecom Wellington
00:48:11
that I joined. There was a central Oakland and two in the South Island at the time. Uh there was over 25,000
00:48:17
people in Telecom. I think I read yesterday there's now 4,000 in Spark. >> Wow.
00:48:22
>> Uh and and and it was the beginning of this was pre-mobile. >> Um you know, hard to believe. I think I
00:48:29
got one of the first mobile phones. I managed to bag one literally and they were a bag. It was about the size of an
00:48:36
A4 pad. >> Massive. >> You unzipped it and pulled out the handset that had a curly cord to the
00:48:42
device and stuck up the aerial >> and calls were like eight bucks a minute
00:48:44
or something. >> Yeah. You know, no one can afford to make one of those. Um and you know, it
00:48:49
was the beginning. So, it was such a incredible time because the technology rush that was coming through. Things
00:48:54
were changing so fast. Did you Oh, I've got um Dame Theresa Gadden coming in for
00:48:58
a podcast next week. Did you Did you work under her? Was she there at that time?
00:49:02
>> Yeah, I wasn't in her leadership team. I was next level, but um yeah, Theresa was
00:49:06
CEO for quite a while. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. How was she? Anything anything you
00:49:10
learned from her or got from her that I could bring up when she comes in? >> Yeah. Look, a hugely dynamic leader. Um
00:49:16
intelligent, you know, very, >> you know, she was I'm trying to remember
00:49:20
exactly. I hope I don't misquote her. I think she was 37 or 38 when made CEO.
00:49:24
That's wild, eh? >> Um, and as a female, you know, unfortunately at a time where
00:49:28
>> that felt odd to people, which it never should have. Um, >> you know, it was an incredible
00:49:32
achievement, you know, so not only about her capability, but about a chairman that believed in her and about, you
00:49:40
know, leadership team. I look at that leadership team at the time. So, Simon Mutter, a Marco Bogawi, people like
00:49:47
that. You know it was a very very strong environment that that organization over
00:49:52
the years has built some amazing leaders. >> Yeah. Of which you were you were one and
00:49:58
you were there for over over 20 years. So many uh telco changes in that time like you mentioned um cell cellular
00:50:03
phones before but also the internet. Yes. >> Um I suppose fax machines were a big
00:50:08
item when you first were they the hot ticket item? >> They were they we I remember when I
00:50:13
joined you know there wasn't sales as such. There was people taking orders because there was no other game in town.
00:50:18
Uh, and you had people who were called salespeople standing by fax machines receiving orders faxed in from
00:50:24
customers. You know, I reckon if I showed my kids a fax machine now, they'd go, "That's amazing." Like the piece of
00:50:29
paper goes from here to here. You think, you know, it's just so, you know, I also
00:50:35
look at people in rotary dial phones now. I don't think a lot of kids would know how to use one.
00:50:39
>> It's wild, eh? The changes that we've seen. So, massive changes in um the
00:50:42
telco industry over that time. Um, yeah. What about you personally? What changes
00:50:46
in Chris Quinn over that time? >> Oh, you know, everything changed. You know, you you got married, you had a
00:50:53
family. >> Uh you we shifted to Oakuckland, you know. Um so everything about life
00:50:58
changed to some extent. But also in that in that industry roughly every 3 years you change jobs.
00:51:05
>> Um and the thing it sort of taught me was there's trade-offs in big companies
00:51:09
cuz some people go, you know, big corporates it's got, you know, a lot of drag with it. what you do get is
00:51:15
recognized for who you are wider than the job you do. >> So, you know, I often say to people who
00:51:20
are doing the, you know, tell me what to do with my career, which I always find a
00:51:24
really tricky question. But in a small company, you're always going to be what
00:51:27
you are. So, if you're the accountant, you're the accountant. When you look for
00:51:30
roles maybe in another place, they go, well, you're an accountant. In a bigger
00:51:34
company, they go, look, we think we know the person. We know their wider skill set. We've seen them be very good at
00:51:39
this. They might have done a project. So your chance to grow your career, you know, and I think change hunters really
00:51:46
matter. You should look around for the challenges and go and have a go. And and the one thing I try and say to people is
00:51:52
one, get into a role where you're leading people, you know, so you can show that you can do that. Secondly, in
00:51:58
a role where you can go, I took a business from here to here. I doubled its turnover. I did something that I can
00:52:04
point at cuz what people care about is what outcomes did you drive not did you work hard cuz everyone does. Uh and you
00:52:12
know think about industries. Am I on an industry that's heading uphill um rather
00:52:16
than one on the down because on the down can be quite hard work. >> Yeah. And that's never been more
00:52:21
appropriate now than with um the rapidly developing AI saying >> just the amount of jobs that'll be
00:52:28
obsolete in the coming years. >> Yeah. That is such a you know a mindblowing story right now. Uh you know
00:52:35
will the jobs be obsolete or will we find new jobs? You know I I >> I really believe that what it's going to
00:52:41
do is two things. One it's going to make everybody's job move up the value chain.
00:52:46
>> So the things that you do are of the least value that's probably going to get
00:52:49
automated. >> Secondly there are going to be services and things people do have not thought of
00:52:54
that will come to light. You know we're still humans. We're still going to want
00:52:58
to be entertained. We're still going to want to have great experiences. You know, we were talking about it today
00:53:02
with a group of my store owners going, you know, will people just use an agent to do the grocery shop and never come
00:53:08
in. And you go, well, they've been able to do that for quite a few years with
00:53:11
e-commerce and they're still coming in because people get joy from shopping for
00:53:15
food. >> You know, it's an experience. You know, there there are very few people. Right
00:53:20
now, about 5% of our sales are done through online. About 50% of our customers use it. But what it means is
00:53:28
they're using it occasionally for some things and most often they're coming
00:53:31
into shop. >> So we're mostly doing a joint. >> You know, we still want a human
00:53:36
experience. >> That makes sense. You see so many people um like bliss probably blissfully
00:53:40
unaware that they're doing it, but wandering the aisles singing. >> That's something I I Are you a singer?
00:53:47
>> Hell no. >> Just humming away to whatever's playing through the speakers.
00:53:50
>> Me singing in a store is really bad for turnover. Um, what you do see quite
00:53:55
often is men like me wandering the aisles looking. You know, I know I need this. I don't know what aisle it's in.
00:54:00
>> Oh, yeah. I get that, too. Yeah. My partner will send me like photos of
00:54:03
items that she wants and it's like, I've looked everywhere. I can't find it. Um,
00:54:07
so during that time at um Telecom and then Spark, um, is there a moment that stands out where you thought actually I
00:54:13
might be quite good at this leadership thing? Uh look, I think you know crisis unfortunately
00:54:21
also builds leaders. Um and there's a thing about crisis where you go so how
00:54:26
do I get the behaviors that you get during a crisis all of the time. Um but you know the the ones that stand out a
00:54:32
little bit the XT mobile network I don't know if you know you remember that um
00:54:36
but I reckon a bunch of listeners will and that was a classic example you know we were behind in technology so we had
00:54:43
mo we had 2G mobile technology which meant our customers couldn't text you imagine that now like
00:54:49
>> no one would be on our network or that network so we built this new network it
00:54:53
was called the XT network and it was going to be the latest and greatest thing um I remember the conversations
00:54:58
was about should we go slowly, make sure it's working, you know, make sure capacity is okay. And there was such a
00:55:04
fervor about going fast that we did. And within 4 to 6 weeks, it stopped working,
00:55:11
you know, and so you've got hundreds of thousands of users on it. This is one of
00:55:15
the biggest profile technology launches and it stops. Um, and what made it sort of worse was it was worse the further
00:55:23
south you went. So, you know, Oakland not as bad as Deneden, you know, so you can imagine the, you know, so this was a
00:55:31
daily news, media updates, fronting sort of thing. I was running the business and
00:55:37
government team, so every business customer was mine. Uh, and yeah, you just go, "Oh crap." You know, like, so
00:55:45
you're fronting it. You're trying to get information from your technology guys
00:55:48
going, "When's this going to be fixed?" You're trying to talk to customers. Um,
00:55:52
and I ended up, you know, two or three times a week sending four or 5 thousand emails, you know, I'd written under my
00:55:58
name going, "This is where we are. >> This is what we're trying to do to help
00:56:01
you. Do you want us to roll you back? Do you want us to shift you to a competitor? Cuz we'll do what we need to
00:56:05
do to not affect your business." Um, so that was a, you know, an incredible
00:56:10
time, you know, TV, everything. Um, um, so quite a thing. And then I do remember
00:56:16
vividly afterwards we did what we called the Nationwide Apology Tour. Um, so hit
00:56:21
the road and I went to, you know, you went to your chambers of commerce, your business communities, and just said,
00:56:26
"We're coming to town. We're going to tell you what happened. We're going to
00:56:28
apologize. We want to hear from you." And I I remember being in Deneden driving up, I think it's Ratray Street,
00:56:35
so it goes past the telephone exchange there. And a car came out of a side street and t-boned the car I was in. It
00:56:41
was with one of the sales reps who'd picked me up at the airport. And I was sitting there covered in the window
00:56:46
glass going, "They're really angry, aren't they? I don't think it was deliberate, but
00:56:52
yeah, >> cuz that must have been an incredibly stressful time. >> Yeah, it it
00:56:58
the you know cuz the next one inside the telecom days was the Christ Church earthquakes. Um and the business unit
00:57:04
that I was running at the time I had 143 staff in the square. So there were three
00:57:08
buildings around the square and >> the exchange building and a couple of others. So it was you know it was the
00:57:15
that day was incredible cuz it was so hard to get clarity. you didn't really
00:57:18
know what had happened. >> Then you find out what had happened and you you very quickly develop a process.
00:57:24
So these events and we're seeing sadly so many of them like this year we've
00:57:27
already seen two decent weather events that have had impact. Um you know you firstly go job one are our people safe
00:57:34
and how do we find out and how do we know? Um job two what a role do we play in the community right now? You know
00:57:41
because if our team is safe then our job is the community. Today it's food. back
00:57:45
then it was how do we get them connected so that emergency services can do their
00:57:49
job and people can find people and all of those things. the my reflection on that new then you go to co then you go
00:57:55
know there's been so many of these moments for New Zealand leaders and what I see happen is um collaboration goes
00:58:02
through the roof you know so people who are a bit unhelpful or you know self-centered suddenly go what do I need
00:58:08
to do what do I need to do to support you how do we you know how do we collaborate um accountability goes
00:58:13
through the roof so if you say you're going to do something by a date and a time you do because it's got a purpose
00:58:18
uh communication you know people lift communication and that's what you must
00:58:21
do and then innovation. You know, sometimes the things we did post earthquake like, you know, we need a new
00:58:27
data center somewhere. Well, you know, normally that would be a year-long business case planning so you just went,
00:58:32
"Okay, do it. Got a week. >> How do we make this happen?" >> Um, you know, Oakland floods, what are
00:58:38
we talking three and a bit years ago now? Um, >> you know, our biggest impact was pack
00:58:43
and say Wra Park. Um, that store has 50,000 customers a day go through it and it was couple of meters deep. you know
00:58:50
that that it's hard to imagine when you go through it now. We had to strip it
00:58:54
entirely, replace all the refrigeration, all the shelving, all of the product, all of the back of house and get it open
00:59:01
again to trade in seven days and nights, you know, and you look at that and go, I
00:59:07
had some incredible leaders who planned that, executed it. The store team were unbelievable.
00:59:12
>> You know, you stand back, the stuff you don't understand. Where do you get all
00:59:15
the refrigeration from? you know, you you go to stores you haven't finished building and take it. You you know, how
00:59:21
do you get rid of 100 tons of food? Um, all of those things. >> Yeah. You sort of alluded to alluded to
00:59:28
this earlier in the podcast, but that sort of um collaboration in a disaster or a crisis. Yeah. How is there any way
00:59:34
that can be duplicated in dayto-day? >> That's exactly the right question is,
00:59:37
you know, so collaboration, communication, innovation, accountability, they're things you'd
00:59:42
love to have every day. So I think the difference is sense of purpose. So in a crisis, everyone has a really high sense
00:59:50
of purpose. >> You know, one of our stores just quietly with the help from our he New Zealand
00:59:55
fund supported the emergency services workers at the mount earlier this year. >> 7,000 meals just delivered. You know,
01:00:02
cuz you look and go, these people are working hard. They're working long shifts. It's pretty emotionally
01:00:07
difficult work. How do we make sure they've got a, you know, hot cup of tea and and a sandwich and just, you know,
01:00:12
look after that? And and that store has never had to do that work before. They just worked it out because people had
01:00:19
our purpose. >> Um, and that's I think as a leadership thing, you keep thinking, okay, how do I
01:00:24
establish purpose in this work? >> I suppose that sense of purpose gives people also a sense of urgency that is
01:00:29
otherwise missing. >> Yeah. Yeah. And also the collaboration, you know, me trying to be better than
01:00:33
you feels silly. Not just what do I need to do? What do you need to do? Um, oh, what was it like being at
01:00:40
Telecom when it switched to Spark? What What did you think of the name change? Names, names are funny things, aren't
01:00:45
they? Like Vodafone going to one and when you first hear one, you're like, what is what is what is one? That's
01:00:50
weird. It must been the same as Spark. >> Spark's part of the vernacular now, but
01:00:54
it seems very odd at the time. >> Yes. Yeah. It's like a lot of moments
01:00:58
like that. There are probably a hundred people who would say I did that. So, so I was I was leading the home and mobile
01:01:07
division. So, that was the bit that you know was at the core of renaming it Spark, but Simon was CEO and um had
01:01:13
Andrew Stone and a couple of other people and and Jason Paris, you know, there was a leadership group around that
01:01:18
and everybody contributed to making that happen. That was one of those where you
01:01:22
stand back and go look you know what would be required to make telecom loved versus what's required to establish a
01:01:28
new brand >> you know and you you actually you know that was the first part of the work was
01:01:32
how do you get that you make a decision and then we made the decision it's going
01:01:37
to be a better journey to change the name so let's do it was going to be too
01:01:40
hard to undo people's longheld perception of telecom uh and it had a whole lot of history that was useful to
01:01:48
maybe park and build new history um you then So, but you can't do it overnight
01:01:52
cuz all you'll do is put lipstick on a pig, you know, and it doesn't make the
01:01:56
pig any better looking. It just makes them unhappy. So, um, so then go, okay, how do we earn the right to change the
01:02:03
brand? And that was quite a big program of getting pricing right, service right.
01:02:08
It was about a year, year and a half, like there was quite a while before we did it. We didn't know what the brand
01:02:12
was going to be. That was just we'd agreed to change it. Um, then you go to choosing the name. And look, I am not a
01:02:19
brand marketer. So I smile when they come in and go this means this and this color means peace and this means harm
01:02:24
and you just go >> you're the expert. >> Yeah, sure. But you know there was in the end I
01:02:32
always believe and and you sort of noted it the brand will become what people experience over time.
01:02:37
>> The actual name you know you look around at the world's best brands there's some
01:02:41
pretty odd brands you know but it's what we believe they are that matters. >> Yeah.
01:02:45
>> So >> I do remember I was in Europe when we launched. I think we have one of our
01:02:49
launches was briefing all of our investors. We're going to change it and this is the brand and it was about 3:00
01:02:54
in the morning. I was in some hotel room somewhere in Spain, I think. And um you
01:02:58
know, I was on a speaking part, you know, saying this is what we're going to
01:03:02
call it. And I remember the first question on the you know, had one of those automated question things was, "Do
01:03:07
you know that's crap spelled backwards, sparkers?" >> And you went, "No, never thought of
01:03:16
that." Um you know so it's funny a name any name someone will try and find that
01:03:22
thing and you go you know what you just got to be committed >> so commitment to executing it
01:03:26
brilliantly is going to overcome everything. >> Well after a while it just becomes an
01:03:31
entity on it. Look look at stuff is the the weirdest name for a news website. >> Yeah.
01:03:36
>> Um so did you you didn't sign off on the squiggle logo? >> No. No. The cat's bum.
01:03:43
>> Oh the cat's bum. I've never thought that. That's what a lot of people Yeah.
01:03:47
Yeah. >> Yeah. Look, the great new, you know, great news about social media and about
01:03:50
open environments is everyone's opinion's easily available. So, >> so you went for the CEO role twice. Um,
01:03:58
I've heard a quote from you saying, "You were too short the first time, too tall
01:04:01
the next." Um, which is a great quote. >> That's not fair on Simon.
01:04:06
>> Um, yeah, that must have been incredibly disappointing. >> Uh, yes. and uh energizing in a funny
01:04:14
way after a while. Um >> you know so you know Paul Reynolds was the too short one. He was the 6'8
01:04:20
Scotsman you know so was never going to compete with that. Um and second time you know probably first time was a bit
01:04:27
of a longshot moment. Second time you know I I don't think I'm inaccurate in
01:04:32
saying I was probably an internal candidate that was in the set. Um however what it taught me one you know
01:04:37
one you know so I'm an incredible leader delivered amazingly deserves you know
01:04:42
deserved the role and absolutely did the best job anyone could do no question um
01:04:46
and also you look at it and go there was a moment there where the change required
01:04:50
was so extreme >> that it can be incredibly difficult to do it from longtime experience
01:04:55
internally it's just hard to let go of everything you know and believe and sometimes you have to come in and go I'm
01:05:01
just not going to get stuck in some of those Um um the other thing you know you learned a lot about the perspective that
01:05:09
a CEO needs to bring to the organization. So I had the most brilliant detailed plan for the board.
01:05:14
What they needed was inspiration and vision. So you know that was another you know was a really valuable lesson. I
01:05:21
remember you know you agonize for a while cuz I am a competitive soul. um you know so you go I lost and I hate
01:05:27
losing you know and you go so why did I lose and you you ask a few supporters and mentors you know why did you lose
01:05:33
>> and one of them got sick of me asking and he just said Chris you are not you
01:05:37
know they did not choose you that's it that's the answer there is nothing else
01:05:42
so stop looking for it you know the next question is what do you want to do for the next one
01:05:47
>> you know and and and once you get to that acceptance then you go okay I'll
01:05:51
stop being a victim about this and um And it was, you know, I originally decided get out of the way, you know,
01:06:00
no, I I would refuse to be a slightly annoyed sort of second place guy hanging around. Um, Simon was brilliant. He sort
01:06:07
of said, "Look, I, you know, I need you to do something else cuz this business
01:06:10
needs fixing. Give me 3 years, you know, and then we can shake hands >> and I will give you the room to do it."
01:06:15
And he did and we, you know, we had a great time getting it done. Um, and it and it finished, you know, really
01:06:21
positively with a great successor and all of those things. So, you know, >> I was I was going to ask you if it um if
01:06:29
it like damaged your ego in any way or if you sold for a while, but I feel like maybe you've sort of potentially
01:06:34
answered that with the last answer. >> Yeah. Yes. >> You can't Well, yeah. You can't help but
01:06:38
feel a little bit personally attacked, I guess, in a way. >> Yeah. Not not attacked, just, you know,
01:06:42
disappointed, you know, in yourself. You know, I think most >> most most people who are, you know,
01:06:48
relatively achievement driven and and want to have an impact are hard on themselves. You know, I think it's part
01:06:54
of what you drive. Um, it's really important that you've also got to go and
01:06:58
I'm no nor less than I was before. >> It's just this moment, >> you know, but it also equipped me really
01:07:06
well for what happened next. So, >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's all the
01:07:10
things you've talked about, all the little things like the the apology tour with the the 2G thing, um the Christ
01:07:15
Church earthquake, all these things are sort of sharpening the axe, eh, like uh and and adversity is hard to go through
01:07:21
for anyone, but um it does build resilience and also it prepares you for what's coming next. Was it hard to leave
01:07:27
after that long? Why didn't why didn't you just sort of stay there and get
01:07:30
comfortable and >> Oh, I think um because I knew I had more, >> you know, I one of the things the
01:07:38
organization did for me, the Spark organization was say, "Hey, look, you know, let's get you into worldass
01:07:43
development experience." So, I did six weeks at Stanford um in October 2014. Uh
01:07:49
and you know, that was a great chance to get out um to live in a different place.
01:07:53
You're living on campus like a student was great. um and with a global set of
01:07:58
leaders, you know. So, and all of those experiences I always think about, you learn half from the class, half from the
01:08:03
colleagues, >> you know, and so that's the it's the beers at night. It's the conversations,
01:08:07
it's the dinners, it's the I I ran San Francisco marathon while I was there
01:08:11
with a few of them, you know, those things you do, you learn so much more from as much as the classes.
01:08:16
>> Having said that, they were world classes, you know, sort of global figures lecturing.
01:08:21
um came back and one of the things they one of the classes I remember it quite vividly they said write a six-word story
01:08:28
about your next step and I gave some examples you know and and so I ended up writing just much good done not done yet
01:08:38
and you know it was it really helped me because I was able to go much good done be proud of where you are be okay with
01:08:44
all of it but also not done yet >> if you were to write that um sixword story today what What would I say?
01:08:51
>> I'd say the same. >> Yeah. Yep. I really would. >> Um, you know, and 10 years is a long
01:08:58
time in a CEO role. You know, that's it's unusual, but there is, you know,
01:09:02
there's been phases to that that have meant it wasn't right to do anything
01:09:05
different. But that much good done, not done yet. That is still true. >> What would you want to do next? What
01:09:11
would your dream job be? >> Uh, look, I don't know yet. I don't know
01:09:15
today. You do. You just can't say. You don't want to say. >> I'm not looking right now. uh you know
01:09:20
there is a job still to do you know and >> uh but also a key responsibility of any
01:09:26
CEO is making sure there is strong succession in place >> and particularly in something like a
01:09:32
cooperative cuz they're harder to learn. They are complex in their cultures and
01:09:36
in their connections and how they work and how to be successful in one. It is not the same as a corporate. It's a
01:09:42
different leadership style. Uh >> and you know if someone arrives and doesn't understand that they can bump up
01:09:48
pretty hard. So >> I that's an important it's a thing I think about as you think about
01:09:53
developing people. I've got a little bit of change in my team right now and part
01:09:57
of the thinking is you know how do we make sure we've got succession and capability for the future.
01:10:01
>> When do you know when the the job's done and you're not just like an old an old
01:10:05
guy overstaying his welcome? >> Um >> do you ever know for sure? >> Oh, I think you do. Yeah, I really think
01:10:11
you do. And one thing I've always promised myself is don't stay past that.
01:10:15
>> Um and that's not about you're not worn out. you were just going I think I've
01:10:19
given everything I know how to give to here. uh you know if I look at you know the
01:10:24
first 5 years there was a lot of you know really proud of the transformations we did then you hit three years of co
01:10:30
and that was an incredible time for any grocery organization right we were at the you know pretty much at the center
01:10:35
of a lot of what was going on then we hit market regulation and you know a massive engagement around that then we
01:10:41
tried to get a merger done you know you look at that those big phases you know there's now still a job to do to make
01:10:47
the organization better and we can >> so that's that's the play right now.
01:10:52
>> Yes. So, you you got this job. Um you were appointed CEO of Food Stuffs
01:10:56
Northland after a global search. >> So, did you apply or did you get asked
01:11:00
to apply? >> Uh you get approached by a search agent, you know, going, you know, hey, we're
01:11:05
looking for this. You're on our list. Do you want to talk about it? >> Must be incredibly flattering.
01:11:09
>> Uh yeah, it is. Yeah. And it's actually it's one of the things when I'm trying
01:11:14
to coach and support people that you know ask for that from me which is always a privilege when you get asked
01:11:19
and I say I've been running about this job and you go tell me about it and they
01:11:22
go well it's in catand do and it's doing this and I go I know what happened here
01:11:26
which is you got a phone call from someone saying they wanted you and that's an amazing feeling but when did
01:11:30
you decide catmand do you know cuz sometimes people go just being wanted is attractive enough as opposed to being
01:11:37
clear on what it is you want. >> It's flattering isn't it? >> Yeah it is. It's good for the good for
01:11:41
the ego. >> Everybody loves to be told they wanted. Yeah. >> So, did you have imposter syndrome? Are
01:11:47
you familiar with the term imposter syndrome? Did you have that at the beginning? Like you, it seems like most
01:11:51
of your adult life to that point had been in the telco space. Y >> um but is it just completely
01:11:56
transferable or completely different things? You must have had a lot to learn, eh? Yeah, I mean imposter
01:11:59
syndrome is a different thing and I think you know I do feel that sometimes you look around and go ah you know I'm
01:12:05
talking to these people or I'm doing this thing and you know or some days you
01:12:09
go there's quite a big call to make here have I really got what I need to make
01:12:13
that call >> uh the transition from telco to to food stuff so I remember at the time there
01:12:18
was you know I sort of made a number of discussions or presentations with people
01:12:23
fascinated by that um and you stand back from go look leadership is leadership So
01:12:28
that's the first one. Um driving performance through people is not different.
01:12:34
>> Uh you know um New Zealanders as consumers. So I've been running the
01:12:38
retail consumer business for Spark for 3 years. So knowing what New Zealanders are about, what was on their minds and
01:12:44
particularly in that phase, you know, that 3year period around, you know, 20, what are we talking about 12 to 14 or 15
01:12:51
and 15 to 18, >> what was society thinking and doing? The thing that was fundamentally different
01:12:56
is, you know, what's the value chain in this business? Like how does it be successful? What does it have to do well
01:13:02
to to succeed? One of the things I love about it is it's a physical business, you know, you
01:13:09
know, big buildings, 320 trucks. We shift a lot of product like you can see and touch what you do. You can walk into
01:13:15
a store and see physically what we deliver. >> Technology is quite different, right?
01:13:19
You have to believe the values at that connection. Um, so it's it's been a lot
01:13:23
of fun and really enjoyed it. Co-ops are different to corporates, you know, sort
01:13:28
of if you think the CEO role is you send an email to all our store owners saying
01:13:32
we need to do this next and they get on and do it, think again, you know, and and
01:13:39
co-op. Someone said to me very early on and they were right. It's the perfect
01:13:43
balance of agile decision-m so know when you got to be a leader and decide with deep consultation and slow decision-
01:13:49
making. And the trick is knowing which issue sits in which bucket. >> I think that's a lot about modern
01:13:54
leadership. I don't think many cultures now are command and control. You have to
01:13:59
engage people in what you're doing and you know convincing them it's the right
01:14:04
thing to do and they're getting their purpose set on doing it. Then you get a
01:14:07
result. >> How long were you in the job before you felt comfortable like you were on top of
01:14:11
things? >> Two years. >> Two years. Wow. >> Yeah. >> And was there a was there a a Chris
01:14:15
Quinn there like someone that had gone for the job twice that missed out or? >> Yeah. Look, there was some, you know,
01:14:20
some strong talent that had applied internally. Yeah. So that, you know, part of
01:14:24
>> that's always interesting like, you know, whenever you talk to someone who's
01:14:27
being promoted from within a team to leader or someone who comes in, >> the first thing you got to be really
01:14:32
careful about is you're not sorry you got the job. >> So don't don't apologize for that or you
01:14:38
know, you go I'm excited. I'm proud. I'm determined. You know, this is a big
01:14:42
challenge. You got you know, you have to be happy and confident you got the job.
01:14:47
Secondly, you then have to talk to them and go, "Right, so now what's going to
01:14:50
light your fire next?" You know, cuz and and it was helpful to have been in a
01:14:54
position where you'd gone for a CEO role and not got it. So you could say, "Look,
01:14:58
I've lived this moment a bit. This was my experience of it and this is what I
01:15:03
chose to do about it in the end." >> And you know the I remember some of the
01:15:07
conversations it was clearly, you know, so either reset and go as hard as you can here or make a positive choice about
01:15:15
doing that somewhere. But don't don't just don't be here being unhappy about
01:15:19
what happened. >> Those conversations I feel like that loops back to what you were saying
01:15:23
before about your dad about not crossing the road. >> Um because it'd be very easy just to
01:15:28
ignore those conversations like the elephant in the room and let them sort of fester.
01:15:32
>> Yeah. >> No, if there was, you know, any people situation where you've ended up having
01:15:37
to do quite a difficult or confrontational or or very determinative thing, >> I've never walked away going, I did that
01:15:44
too soon. M >> often you walk away going, I left that too long. >> Yeah.
01:15:48
>> So, you know, I keep thinking about how do you have a straight up respectful
01:15:53
conversation? I can't remember who it was, but someone recently in a session
01:15:57
we're doing, you know, the great tip was start with I care enough about you to
01:16:01
tell you straight. >> And I, you know, it's such a love. >> Yeah.
01:16:05
>> Such an you know, powerful way to do that. >> Um >> I feel like that's um not just for
01:16:11
business, but um for personal interactions as well. Oh yeah, >> I think that's probably a great way to
01:16:15
frame a conversation. >> Yeah. Yeah. And hard when particularly when they are hard subjects.
01:16:21
>> Yeah. I forget what the exact stat was, but when I had um Sir Steve Hansen on
01:16:25
the podcast, he had he had a quote that he'd say to the All Blacks and I think
01:16:28
he called them 80enters or 20enters. And he was like, "Look, 80% of the conversations we have are going to be
01:16:33
positive. 20% probably will be difficult just, you know." >> Yeah. >> So, eight times out of 10, it's going to
01:16:38
be nice small talk, but the other two times out of 10, it's not going to be pretty.
01:16:42
>> Yeah. Yep. I remember a time in telecom where we were measuring engagement. You
01:16:48
know the sort of you know one of those scores that big organizations use to go are our people happy and positive and
01:16:54
engaged and that and our engagement scores were really strong and the share price had gone down to a third of what
01:17:00
it was. >> And you go how can that disconnect happen? And it was fundamentally not
01:17:05
focused on the hard things which is we have a cost problem, we have a performance problem. We are not growing
01:17:11
fast enough. whatever it was and it was a big lesson and you've got to connect
01:17:15
people's sense of purpose with performance that matters to the business. And then when you do, you get
01:17:21
absolute satisfaction and engagement and energy and excitement. If you don't
01:17:25
connect those things, >> it's just a party. >> Yeah. >> You know, and the parties don't last.
01:17:31
>> Yeah. You mentioned just before you reckon it took around about two years to
01:17:34
um feel like you had your head around the job you were doing. >> Um >> yeah. What were the biggest surprises in
01:17:40
those first couple of years? I think uh one understanding the value chain you know so the role that our partner
01:17:47
suppliers play in how the business worked understanding you know the the systems and technology understanding the
01:17:53
physicalness um but a lot about how to make change happen you know how how do you take a cooperative so you know quite
01:18:03
literally 2,000 of the people work for you and you've got you know if there is
01:18:07
any hierarchical power you know you have some of that and 22,000 people don't
01:18:12
work for you. They just work in the banners and in the brands and you know have a local owner who they work for.
01:18:17
>> So learning how to make change happen successfully. And there's a a change
01:18:23
model called ADC car. It's five letters that stand for stuff. But the first two
01:18:27
really matter. So one awareness. Does everyone understand what we're trying to
01:18:30
change and why? And the second one is desire. Does everyone think it's a good
01:18:33
thing to do? >> So before you do any work, get those two things right? If you don't, all the
01:18:39
work's going to be difficult because people are going to push back and, you know, step out and get in the way and do
01:18:45
those things. If everyone's aware why and what it's going to deliver and
01:18:48
everyone actually goes, this is a good thing, you can make change happen. >> Wow. There's been so many good
01:18:53
leadership lessons in this uh in this podcast already. It's fantastic. >> Um, you the fact that you remember all
01:19:01
these things um it tells me that they they do sort of like along in the back of your mind with your decision-m
01:19:06
process. They do. They do. And >> you >> know the the enemy, you know, the problem with
01:19:13
being busy and I, you know, challenged myself on this full diaries, those sort of things, is you don't get enough time
01:19:17
to stand back from the situation and go, >> what is actually going on here? And how
01:19:21
do we not go through every step, but we get to the >> powerful moment where we make a
01:19:25
difference. >> And any, you know, it's, you mentioned imposter syndrome before. Sometimes you
01:19:30
feel like, you know, if I make this decision, is it going to have negative impact in places and stuff? Sometimes
01:19:35
the organization's going tell us your decision, >> you know, we cuz we'll do it, but you
01:19:40
need to tell us and you know, be, you know, be resolute about it. >> Commitment to the outcome is the most
01:19:46
powerful thing. >> Yeah. >> I often say to people, you know, sometimes you've got quite hard choices.
01:19:51
You might go, you know, when should we build a blue one, a yellow one, or a green one? And and sometimes you get to
01:19:56
the point of analysis where you go, look, I just can't use the spreadsheet to make this call. It's not going to
01:20:02
give me the answer. We're going to build the yellow one. Good news, we'll never
01:20:05
know if the blue or green one would have worked. So, forget it. Let's make the
01:20:09
yellow one work really well. >> Yeah, you just make a decision then make it the right decision.
01:20:13
>> Yeah, this execution will determine outcome. So, go >> um I've got a card here which is called
01:20:19
uh co and crisis leadership. >> Do we How is that for you to talk about? Is it triggering to talk about or
01:20:25
>> It's not triggering to talk about, but I tell you one thing I can't do is I can't
01:20:29
work from home. >> It it you know PTSD sets in. um you know it's that whole co and
01:20:37
working from home thing and you know it's it's really interesting because
01:20:40
from a social and business point of view it's become you know there's quite a
01:20:44
moment right you know in the last year of so what's the right setting do we get
01:20:48
people to the office all of those things it's fascinating in our world our youngest team members come to the office
01:20:54
nearly 100%. Mhm. >> Um why? Because working at home's romantic unless you are working in your
01:20:59
bedroom on an iring board, you know. So it's a a conversation led by people who
01:21:04
might have a study in their house, but affects people who live in a multi- person flat.
01:21:10
>> Yeah. It's like we were talking before about this, you know, the social
01:21:13
interactions and the sort of culture uh at the supermarkets. Like people like being around other people other than
01:21:18
their family. >> Yeah. and and younger people in particular like I like community and I
01:21:23
like having a leader I can learn from and I like being around you know and >> you know we're we're really blessed to
01:21:29
have a bunch of people that you know drive like a fitness club and a social club and stuff like that. So there's
01:21:34
community outside of the work that just you know means people love being there which is really really cool. Well, look,
01:21:41
co um what an incredible moment, you know, in every country in the world, but um you know, New Zealand was probably at
01:21:49
a relatively extreme set of conditions and practices and settings. Um I remember it vividly 28th of February
01:21:56
about 6 p.m. I was at home um having a beer on the deck with someone who lived in the same suburb who actually owned
01:22:03
one of our stores. So, you know, we were just having a Friday catchup. Um, and both of our phones started going nuts
01:22:09
and was we heard on the news because I think the trigger was the first New Zealand case. It was a gentleman had
01:22:15
come back from I think the UAE and he'd come back and been diagnosed. So, that
01:22:18
sort of was the moment where for New Zealand it went from an interesting global story to it's here.
01:22:24
>> Uh, and then within the hour, our phones were going nuts because our stores in
01:22:27
certain communities were getting attacked by groups of people going Armageddon's coming. I need to buy 6
01:22:33
months supply of everything, you know, >> flour and toilet paper. >> Flour and toilet paper and and rice and
01:22:40
food and and I was being sent videos of people climbing the racking and packing saves to get the product off the storage
01:22:46
at the top. Like it was and my son was working in China at the time. Um and so I messaged him and said, "What the you
01:22:52
know, are you seeing or hearing anything?" and he went on a lot of the particularly Asian community um chat
01:23:00
apps and things and said, "Oh, no. What's happening is people in China are
01:23:03
telling their families in New Zealand that they're going to be locked up for
01:23:06
months and they need to get everything they need." So, it's so that started it
01:23:10
and it was just a a blood rush from there in terms of, you know, you build the business to supply the demand you
01:23:18
have in front of you. You might build 10% capacity into it because that might be what happens. we were getting 300%
01:23:24
increases. You know, you're like you were just going, >> how do you physically pump this through?
01:23:29
>> And then all of that time where the rules were uncertain. Is it mass? Is it
01:23:32
not mass? Could people shop here? Could not shop here? You know, can you do e-commerce and delivery? You know, can
01:23:38
you have a service deli or do you have to wrap every product up? So, you know, all of these and they were coming at us
01:23:44
daily. Um, you know, there were just all these moments. And I was thinking about
01:23:48
it this morning. uh a a cousin of mine, Paul Little, um wrote a book about New Zealand co.
01:23:54
>> Oh, no way. He's your cousin. Yeah. Joel Little's dad. >> Yes. Yeah. Um
01:23:58
>> Grammy awardw winning producer. >> Yeah. My grandmother's maiden name is
01:24:01
Little. So there you go. >> That's the connection. Um >> he's a great writer, by the way.
01:24:05
>> Yeah. And he wrote a book called The Co Chronicles. Um which was he interviewed
01:24:11
a dozen or 18 people every week for just half an hour and told the story of that
01:24:14
period of time. And it's it's actually a real pleasure to have the book because
01:24:19
sometimes you pull it out and go that's right. That happened or this happened
01:24:21
because it's such a blur. >> I you know so there was so many things. It was organizing screens in stores. It
01:24:27
was what how do we keep our people safe and that clarity thing we we ended up saying there are two things that matter
01:24:33
right now. Number one keep people and customers safe. Number two have stock on shelf. That's our job. Nothing else is
01:24:39
our job. Um, as I mentioned before, yeah, the supply chain just became a a phrase that uh, everyone like with GM
01:24:46
knows G genome sequencing and um, you know, there's all these casual contact,
01:24:51
all these phrases that came up in that time. Was were we ever at risk of running out of toilet paper?
01:24:57
>> Not ever once. Um, and you know, one of the things that was incredible cuz the
01:25:02
the story in other communities there was an issue cuz in some countries it's not
01:25:06
made. So it's made in other countries and imported. We make toilet paper in New Zealand. Please do not panic about,
01:25:12
you know, and does tell you a lot about people's primal fears. You know, that
01:25:17
was more scary than running out of food. So, >> I suppose, yeah, and in terms of human
01:25:23
psychology, it's an interesting thing. I suppose it's just people looking for
01:25:26
something they can control. >> Yeah. I remember my my wife, I think, saw it. So, I was on TV at one point,
01:25:32
you know, being interviewed. We were trying, we tried to sort of get a a theme going around # shopnormal, which
01:25:39
is if you come in and take what you need for the week, we'll have it full again
01:25:42
when you come in a week. If you take what you need for four weeks, we're going to struggle to, you know, so
01:25:46
please shop normal. >> Um, and I'm on camera on news or something. And as I'm saying this, you
01:25:52
know, with the supermarket in the background, a female customer walks past with two 18 packs of toilet paper.
01:25:59
my my wife screenshotted that and said, you know, it's not working. Um so, um I
01:26:06
went I went to my supermarket. I was like, I suppose I should I suppose I should stockpile cuz just cuz everyone
01:26:10
else was doing it and I went in there and I literally didn't know what to buy.
01:26:13
I just bought a bunch of baked beans and spaghetti that's still in the the pantry
01:26:17
now >> and jin. >> Yeah. Did um Yeah. Before um 2020, did Food Stuffs have a pandemic plan?
01:26:25
>> No. No. We'd done we'd done crisis exercise around earthquakes and floods
01:26:30
and fires, >> you know, though you know they were your natural go-tos. We had never practiced a
01:26:35
pandemic. >> So that you know and the world hadn't really so you know >> it's unlike anything else.
01:26:40
>> You immediately go to all your contacts and go what do you do? What do you
01:26:43
everyone's going don't know >> you know and governments you know it was
01:26:47
it was you know we reflect now and go would we have done everything the same? Maybe not
01:26:52
>> but no one knew at the time what to do. Um, and and so it made it incredibly
01:26:57
fast-paced, incredibly changeable. We got into a rhythm where I would have a call at 9:00 a.m. every morning with all
01:27:04
of our owners, all of our key leaders inside the team. And, you know, there'd
01:27:09
be 900 to a,000 people on this call and you would just go on and go, "Right,
01:27:13
today this is where we are in terms of supply. This is where we are in terms of guidance. These are the new rules that
01:27:18
have come in in the last 24 hours that you need to execute." And we developed a
01:27:22
language cuz in a co-op, you know, telling people how to run their store, you know, that's what they are there to
01:27:27
do. >> So, we just said, look, we're going to really help you by going this is
01:27:30
mandated. So, today this is the law could change tomorrow, but we're just trying to help you by being clear. This
01:27:36
is recommended, which is we think the best way to go about this is this, but if you know better in your community,
01:27:40
you go, you know, you do it. >> Yeah. >> And it just sped us up so much. Those
01:27:45
calls were amazing. We had, you know, hard moments, disagreements, people in a bit of stress and trouble. We also had
01:27:52
the funniest moments in the world. There was one guy who would ask questions that
01:27:56
you'd already covered five or six times and, you know, be, you know, there's
01:27:59
always one in every crowd that sort of isn't connected, then comes in late and
01:28:03
sort of said something, had the classic moment where someone else was not off mute and went for [ __ ] sake really
01:28:09
loudly. And you've never you've never had a thousand people laughing on an
01:28:14
audio call, you know, just it was the stress reliever that everyone needed. >> Oh, that's brilliant. Were you getting
01:28:19
um your your job at the time was arguably one of the most um important or high pressure or crucial in New Zealand?
01:28:25
Were you were you getting regular phone calls from um Dame Justindra Adurn or Chris Atkins who was the co minister or
01:28:32
>> uh never met or spoken to Justinder Adun >> really? >> Yep.
01:28:40
that surpris but Chris Farfoy who was her um you know sort of commerce engagement so the key
01:28:47
business engagement fantastic regular conversations listening engaged uh spoke a lot you know we and we were able to go
01:28:54
look what we need is this what we need is that you know >> the issues that people probably never
01:28:59
understood so when we had regional lockdowns we were having trucks stopped at borders saying you can't go through
01:29:03
and you're going guys it's a big yellow truck with pack and save on it it's full
01:29:07
of food it needs to go through. You know, stories you shouldn't tell. Like, you know, at South Oakland, you know,
01:29:13
your communities like Pukcoey Drury staff would live on one side of a border and work on the other side in a store.
01:29:19
So, we had butchers hidden in boots coming through regional blockades and, you know, you just found ways to do what
01:29:26
you needed to do to make sure the store could open full, fresh, and friendly and
01:29:30
help a community feel normal. Um so there was there was some and then you know the more important it's the
01:29:37
government departments the people that are doing the operating and you know the police the the ones like that that's
01:29:42
where our connections were a lot. The one thing I don't think anyone maybe remembers but this that whole rule set
01:29:49
that said only supermarkets could be open and green grocerers and and butchers and that we constantly said
01:29:55
that is not necessary. They could be open. We never argued for only us to be open. never wanted that to be the case
01:30:01
cuz it just created angst and pressure and an unnecessary thing when they could have perfectly safely traded.
01:30:08
>> So that would be you know we had a few conversations with the health leaders um
01:30:13
just going look we don't think you've got the setting right you know you could
01:30:16
open these um so that was you know it was interesting cuz no we didn't have with the leadership level. It's a wild
01:30:23
time. I I still can't get over the um you not hearing from Justindra Adon. Was
01:30:29
that a head scratcher for you at the time or now? >> Yes. Yeah, it is then and now. Yeah. And
01:30:34
look, you know, I guess everyone chooses where they engage and how. Um would it have been valuable? I think so. Yeah, I
01:30:41
think so. Another podcast guest I've had on Martin Snedden who was in charge of
01:30:46
the 2011 Rugby World Cup and he just he talked about how hands-on John Key, but in particular Murray Mccaui was at the
01:30:53
time and how if he saw Murray's name come up on his phone like had have like
01:30:57
a a mild panic attack. Um there was and there was a sports tournament this is a pandemic
01:31:03
>> and look and I was lead on the telecom project that engaged to deliver the technology for that rugby
01:31:09
world cup. So little bit of time with Martin but a lot with Dame now who is Dame TZ while she was you know a
01:31:15
powerhouse behind that whole event. >> Yeah you're currently chairman of New
01:31:18
Zealand. >> Yes. >> Yep. Um and you know so that was an incredible time you know how do you make
01:31:23
sure that every global media organization has got everything they need at every stadium and it works. M
01:31:29
>> that was you know um but yeah look the engagement now you know so our police
01:31:36
minister our you know um education work safety all of those things we're getting
01:31:43
you know we're getting good consultation engagement we're getting heard not
01:31:46
always agreed with and that's fine >> um but you know I do think in a country
01:31:50
like New Zealand engagement between government and business can be incredibly powerful you know I I postco
01:31:57
co I still catch up with that at Stanford class so you know from 2014 so it's 11 12 years on now and for a while
01:32:06
we were doing circling where someone would come on to a call and everyone would dial in from all over the world
01:32:10
and say look here's our co learning so they invited me to do a New Zealand one
01:32:14
and I sort of said look here's my summary and observation number one it's
01:32:18
really helpful to be an island Ireland when you've got a pandemic because you
01:32:21
can have a rule set that says we can close some stuff down and protect ourselves
01:32:25
>> natural mode >> uh number to um you know communications are really really important and we had
01:32:32
very very strong communicators you know including Dangerous Cinder um so you were never unclear about what they were
01:32:39
trying to do you could argue about content argue about decisions but you did have strong communication they were
01:32:43
out front and doing it and that was valuable and the third thing was I think culturally New Zealanders more than any
01:32:49
country in the world formed one team in a crisis >> like not everyone agreed but everyone
01:32:55
got on and got it done you think about one day the Oakland motorways are doing what they do and it's hard to get
01:33:00
anywhere the next day it's empty empty >> that would not happen in an America or a
01:33:05
UK or a you know so we you know those three things differentiated our experience
01:33:11
>> I don't know if it would happen here again now >> no I don't think it would
01:33:14
>> I don't know if you'd get the buy in again >> no I don't think it would
01:33:17
>> from from your position during that time how can you assure um your staff that
01:33:22
you're talking to on the daily Zooms or teams meetings or you know the the staff
01:33:25
beneath them 24,000 people, how can you assure them everything's going to be
01:33:29
okay when you don't know yourself? >> Yeah. And and firstly, be careful about
01:33:34
saying everything is going to be okay cuz cuz you know, if you're going to if
01:33:38
you're committed to being authentic, then don't say things that you know what
01:33:43
you can do is say we really, you know, we really care about your safety. Here is everything we are doing to keep you
01:33:49
safe. Is there anything on your minds? um you can say these are the decisions we're making to you know like for our
01:33:55
supply chain you know this is our essential workers and and you know so many of them I spoke to who were you
01:34:01
know a lot of them come from quite large households so multiple generations family living in a single household so
01:34:07
older people whose health may not be brilliant and then you've got you know a
01:34:11
middle age and a young age and we we have the privilege of a lot of families working in our business you know there's
01:34:15
fathers and sons and daughters and cousins and and you know they're all going back to the same house and they
01:34:20
had this real sense of if I'm going to work with other people, am I taking something home that is going to harm my
01:34:26
grandparents or my parents? >> You imagine the feeling of that. You know, I was talking to people who were,
01:34:31
you know, coming to work, then going home, stripping off their gear and hosing themselves down on the back
01:34:36
doorstep and then maybe sleeping in the caravan or, you know, like you're going,
01:34:40
you know, whilst we are sitting in offices issuing orders, people are living that stuff. Um, so being
01:34:47
connected to those audiences, looking after them, making sure, you know, little things like we form priority cues
01:34:52
for our teams to get into stores to get the food they need in for their families
01:34:56
because they are working a 12-hour shift and then lining up for 2 hours to go to
01:34:59
the supermarket. You go, come on, you know, >> we need them back. So, um, and we need
01:35:03
them to have a rest and we need them to look after themselves. So, those, you know, assuring people it's all going to
01:35:10
be okay. What you could assure them was this is what we're doing for you. this
01:35:12
is how we're going to try and keep you safe. We hear you on some of the problems. Let's, you know, see if we can
01:35:18
deal with those. >> Um, and just communicating and treating every question, you know, respectfully,
01:35:26
even though some of them might be the fifth time you've been asked, you know.
01:35:30
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're saying there's no such thing as a bad question,
01:35:32
but there are some there are some dumb questions. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um what's in your opinion
01:35:37
what's changed for better and worse um after co in terms of um yeah the grocery
01:35:42
trade >> look you know essential worker number one a respect for those people
01:35:48
>> absolutely >> um number two I think our supply chains you know look I look at what they
01:35:53
executed and managed to do and how they thought about how being efficient as possible how we thought about you know
01:35:59
like when you're under pressure you know the way for example you work today is
01:36:03
you might pick 40 different boxes of cereal into co we said you know what we've got time to send a pallet of epics
01:36:09
and that's it and we're going to just make that work. We we learned that you
01:36:13
don't need 30 different toilet papers like that was you know when you think about production and supply chain what
01:36:19
slows down production is stopping and then putting the same toilet paper into a different wrapper with a different
01:36:24
brand on it you know or or making this one slightly scented yellow and this one slightly scented orange. You go you know
01:36:30
what >> dolphin and Boston. >> Yeah. Dolphin. Exactly. um or you just
01:36:34
go you know what what people need is stock on shelf so let's going to make the one in the middle we're going to
01:36:39
make as many as we can we're not going to offer so many choices >> so many of those sort of products now
01:36:44
you see a tighter story but it's always in stock it's you know better value it's
01:36:49
those things >> uh one of the biggest trend changes is chilled and frozen food because what
01:36:54
happened was everyone was told shop once a week send one person you can't you
01:36:58
know fresh food may not last that long so people started buying fresh and frozen food which led a lot of our
01:37:04
amazing suppliers to go how do we innovate great product that is great tasting nutritious good but is delivered
01:37:11
in those formats because it can be the technologies come a long way um so you know the air fryer rose
01:37:18
you know people going I can't go to the pub and have my chips and you know nuggets what can I do so all these
01:37:24
product changes that have happened as a result um and we learned that you know like the serve deli was a big
01:37:31
thing you know where you'd I would say like 15 pieces of ham or 20 pieces of
01:37:35
lunchon. Now so many people are going it's bagged. It's ready to go. I know it
01:37:38
was packed this morning. I can see the price which actually >> is a really good thing when people are
01:37:43
managing a budget tightly. I don't there's no worse experience than saying
01:37:46
could you put five pieces back like what a demeaning you know so you just go you
01:37:50
don't need to just have all the bags ready and go you choose the one that you
01:37:53
can do. Um >> so a lot of little things came out of it. Um but and we built supply chain
01:38:00
capacity you know so here in Oakland we have an 80,000 square meter ambient distribution center which is a warehouse
01:38:07
>> that we could not have got through co without that we started co without it
01:38:12
and we could not have got through without it >> um you know so we learned heaps of
01:38:16
things >> um we touched um earlier on the retail crime aspect do do you has that got
01:38:24
worse since co do you think it's like a co hangover in a Yes, it is. Yeah, 100%.
01:38:28
So, >> it's it's society got anxious and restless. You know, it it got incomprehensible. You
01:38:36
know, there's a great expression that, you know, in general societies in Albania, so they're brittle, they're
01:38:42
anxious, it's nonlinear. Um, and it's it's more sort of interrupted than it's
01:38:48
ever been. And so, CO started that really. You know, you think it was a massive interruption. You know, people
01:38:53
feared for their jobs and their security. They feared for their medical their lives. Um they were forced to work
01:39:00
at home which was unnatural. They got disconnected. So many tragic things happened around you know people not
01:39:07
being able to be at the right place in terms of family events and all of those things.
01:39:11
>> So the impact you know and then education we have a you know threeear set of kids that had a very bumpy
01:39:16
education experience and that's still showing up. >> Um so yes lots of things happened. Um
01:39:23
you know what drives retail crime? Um the the most common cause is for profit is not um the second most is gangs or
01:39:33
organized crime. So they're organizing product through a chain and then the third is addiction. Um cost of living or
01:39:41
poverty is not a major cause of retail crime. So you know and I think a lot of people would think differently and
01:39:47
that's because very often our stores you know they know their community. they
01:39:51
know the people that might try and steal food to feed a family and very often they are saying look don't do that talk
01:39:57
to me what do we need to do um and we've done a lot of things or you know the
01:40:02
problem is not solved at all I'm not pretending for a second food poverty is
01:40:05
solved but you know we have a social supermarket story we're really proud of
01:40:08
we're doing a whole lot of things but retail crime it's a crime and you know
01:40:13
people are not helping themselves by doing it >> and there's a a big difference between
01:40:18
someone stealing mints to feed their family and someone stealing a five pack of Gillette razors, isn't it?
01:40:22
>> That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Or stealing 50 kilos of fillet steak,
01:40:25
you know, and going that is not for feeding a family. That is >> Has that happened?
01:40:29
>> Oh, yes. >> How do you how do you steal 50 kilos? >> You'd be amazed where you you would be
01:40:34
amazed and horrified at where it's put. Um and and then you get the conversation
01:40:39
of, well, I'll give it back. And you go, no thank you. You're right. >> Yeah.
01:40:43
>> Although, if someone tries to put a um a rotisserie uh chicken down their pants
01:40:47
and walk out with it, I reckon let them have it. Um it's brave particularly if
01:40:50
it's just come out of the rotisserie. Uh >> but you know that is you know it's it
01:40:56
it's retail crime has always been present right we shouldn't pretend it's
01:40:59
a brand new thing it's not a brand new thing >> u it is higher than it was before co
01:41:04
there is no doubt >> and it is unfortunately a little more aggressive and and more violent and
01:41:09
that's what I really worry about for our teams. Um, you know, there's there's you
01:41:13
look at things like there's a big conversation in society about liquor and, you know, sales hours. So, a number
01:41:19
of councils are now saying, well, you know, this the supermarket's open till
01:41:22
10, but we think you should stop selling alcohol at 9:00 because that restricts availability and will make a difference
01:41:28
to alcohol harm. >> I haven't yet seen the data that says that we'll do that. But, you know, the
01:41:34
rules are made and we live to the rules. What I do worry about is someone comes in at 10 to 9. Um, they're getting, you
01:41:40
know, maybe they're going fishing tomorrow with friends and they want a dozen beers. They finish shopping at 5 9
01:41:45
approach the checkout and you've got a 16-year-old school >> kid who's on checkout and then a big
01:41:51
argument breaks out, why can't I buy the beers? >> That's the not fair bit, you know,
01:41:56
because it's nothing to do with the checkout operator. Um, so those are, you
01:42:00
know, some of the things that you sort of go, can we think end to end about some of these things and what we're
01:42:03
trying to achieve, which is less alcohol harm in society. That's we're all on
01:42:08
board with that. >> Surely there's an easy fact like it just off the top of my head, you know, cover
01:42:12
the alcohol up or rope it off at 9:00 and if you've got it before 9:00, >> if you started at 10 to 9
01:42:18
>> but finished after. So there's >> it's the actually sitting down and
01:42:22
connecting and going what's actually happening in a shoers's life, you know,
01:42:26
>> cuz they're not thinking about planning to be done by 9. >> Mhm.
01:42:28
>> They're just living their lives and doing their thing. >> I know you can't speak on behalf of
01:42:34
everyone, but um yeah, how's the mental health of your of your staff? You must
01:42:38
get some feedback like they they're dealing with a lot. >> Yeah, they are. And look, you know, it's
01:42:43
um it's I don't think it's more present in our organization than it is across
01:42:48
New Zealand society, but I think it is more of an issue for every organization. And, you know, we're 100% committed to
01:42:54
the safety and wellbeing of our teams. Um we, you know, we talk about a, you know, zero harm environment. We measure
01:43:01
in a number of different ways. Our harm is down 25% yearon-year and it is industry leading right now. We're very
01:43:08
proud of it. And you've got to pay attention, you know. So, my worst physical incident happened late last
01:43:16
year when one of our Gilmore's truck drivers got out of their truck, went round the back, lowered the tailgate,
01:43:21
and at the same time a distracted driver came across three lanes and slammed into
01:43:25
the back of the truck and hit him. Um, he was in hospital for 10 weeks. Name is Ben. Uh, lost one leg. Uh, life-changing
01:43:32
event. Uh, also the most inspiring 35-year-old I've ever met. cuz when I caught up with him in the hospital, he
01:43:38
said, "Well, the thing I'm trying to work out is do I do a marathon or a
01:43:42
swimming event?" >> And you go, "Mate, whatever." >> Um, but mental health, um, look, there's
01:43:49
a lot of leadership challenge. There's a lot of pressure. A lot of our families
01:43:53
running stores and communities who not only get it from customers, they get it from the community. They're perceived as
01:43:58
the supermarket owner, which means, you know, you must be filthy rich rather than you must have millions of dollars
01:44:03
of debt. Mhm. >> Um and you know the most powerful thing I've ever heard on the subject and it
01:44:08
came from John Kerwin. Um you know I was at a event in Fiji that he spoke at and
01:44:13
it was a very funny one cuz it was five experts then he spoke last and the experts were very technical and very
01:44:20
detailed and sort of you know it's Friday night in Fiji and we were having a Fiji gold and you know going this is
01:44:25
come on guys you know. Um and and JK just said I have no effing idea what these people just said. Um, but all I
01:44:35
would say is remember it's an illness, not a weakness. >> And it's a line that's been incredibly
01:44:41
valuable to me in half a dozen conversations with people where you go. So, first thing you got to stop thinking
01:44:46
is you're weak. You're not, >> you know, you if you had a cold or you,
01:44:50
you know, had whatever you would go to a doctor and get it sorted. This is no different. It's an illness. Get the
01:44:56
help. >> You know, and the other thing I always think about is when you walk past
01:44:59
someone and say, "How you going?" You know, it's a very Kiwi thing to go fine.
01:45:02
>> Yeah. Yeah, keep walking. >> Yeah. And you know, just having that
01:45:06
sense to go, that didn't feel fine. I'm going to go back and ask another
01:45:09
question. >> So, just little stuff. >> Yeah. >> What about you personally? How's your
01:45:13
mental health been? >> Uh, it's good. It's good. Yeah. And it's
01:45:18
>> uh you That's not a no effort thing. You have to look after yourself. You have to
01:45:23
be real with yourself. You have to, you know, I'm a a little bit of what I try
01:45:28
to do, and I'm not perfect at it by any means, but do what you're doing 100%.
01:45:32
you know, so if you're at work, be there. And don't be feeling guilty about
01:45:35
not being somewhere else. If you're, you know, driving cars with mates, do that.
01:45:41
Um, and if you're at home or with people, try and do that 100%. >> Because I think today one of the big
01:45:47
challenges is everything being done 50%. Which means nothing feels >> Yeah.
01:45:52
>> settled, everything feels a bit restless. >> Um, so I think it's really important. um
01:45:57
try and celebrate what you should um because you know and particularly when you get to leadership roles you sort of
01:46:03
look around going why has no one told me I'm good it's because they think that's
01:46:07
your job you know you know that actually you are the one who's telling people and you know that
01:46:13
you know so you do you have to learn you get stronger at self-evaluating >> and going am I actually proud of that
01:46:20
and if I am tell yourself >> uh if you go that's not as good as I could be then sort it
01:46:26
Um, and also, you know, some I've I've learned, you know, a lot of the, you
01:46:31
know, I get a lot of customer emails. I get a lot of society emails, you know, the name's not hard to work out where
01:46:36
the email address is, you know, you can end up taking quite a bit of it personally. Um, and one other thing my
01:46:43
dad said, you know, he said, if you pass a drunk in the street and they say you're ugly, are you ugly or are they
01:46:49
just drunk? You know, so sometimes you go, look, you know, and I have sent a few replies back
01:46:56
to people, you know, they'll say, you know, you guys are this or you're that,
01:46:58
and they, you know, they'll call you all sorts of names and you just go back and
01:47:01
say, look, we're not going to agree. This is our perspective on that issue. And just one thing I want to ask you is,
01:47:07
are you okay? >> It's funny when when I had Miles Harold from Fontier on the podcast, he said the
01:47:13
same thing. He'll get he'll get to work in the morning. And there'll be some
01:47:15
emails they sent at like 9 10:00 at night >> um from angry farmers clearly after a
01:47:19
couple of whisies and >> you just got to be the bigger person. Um yeah, you said something before about
01:47:24
yeah people not telling you you're doing a good job because that's your job. But
01:47:27
um >> yeah, it must be an interesting position for you to be in like you if you walk
01:47:32
walk through a store and you you walk someone to walk past the staff member without talking to them like that could
01:47:37
play on their mind like oh Chris Chris hasn't he's seen me three times this
01:47:41
week and he hasn't spoken to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's that I call it the 100
01:47:44
one. You're one. There's a 100 looking at you and every action is read as
01:47:48
something. So, you've got to be aware of it. Um, you've also got to be sometimes,
01:47:53
you know what, I'm just my mind's somewhere else or I'm busy on something
01:47:56
and that's okay. >> But also then take the breather and take the time to walk the floor, go to the
01:48:01
store, do the thing. Um, I'm I think for leaders and you know this is not a me
01:48:08
thing. I've seen many leaders do this but one of the things is how do you personalize in such a large organization
01:48:13
you know how do you connect and you the answer is you build systems and processes so
01:48:19
>> you know on a Monday I send an email to one pack and say one in one four square
01:48:23
saying you had a great week >> and you know for these reasons did I personally know that or see that no but
01:48:29
I've got a system that feeds it to me and it's just one of my jobs on a Monday
01:48:33
>> it's the only email I get a reply to same day cuz you know they reply and say
01:48:36
of course you know thank god you finally noticed. Um, and then just a system also little
01:48:42
things like uh I have the world's worst handwriting. There is a game in the organization called guess what the hell
01:48:47
he wrote, you know, >> you like a doctor. >> Yeah. Terrible. And they show it to
01:48:51
other people to go, do you any idea what he said here? Um, but there is still a place for a handwritten card,
01:48:57
>> you know, and it's, hey, I heard you got married. I heard you've had a baby. I
01:49:01
heard you bought your first house. I don't know those things from conversations. I know it from leaders
01:49:06
feeding me it. and you know having you know I call it conducting the orchestra. So when you run a team you use all of
01:49:12
the instruments around you. I'm just one of the instruments that can be used to
01:49:16
make someone feel really good. >> Mhm. >> Who do you go to for brutally honest
01:49:21
feedback? >> I have you know I have friends and mentors and people you go to and you
01:49:27
know and uh you get it at home. Um you know and uh that's really important because it comes back to that I care
01:49:34
enough to tell you straight >> you know. So, it's important to have people that will do that for you
01:49:39
>> and it's important for you to continue to listen to it and not get too big for
01:49:42
your boots. >> And the other thing is in that big too big for your boots thing is, you know,
01:49:46
so I am privileged to have, you know, like my the gym crowd in the morning who, you know, mostly don't know what I
01:49:53
do and I love that they don't. Um, >> in fact, you know, there's a guy who,
01:49:58
you know, we encourage to do some gym work who runs one of our DCs and it's been really good for him. He is world
01:50:03
famous in South Oakland. He's a rugby coach at Derell and all this sort of stuff. He started coming to the gym. I'd
01:50:08
been going for 6 months. No one knew me. No one said hello. He walks in. It's
01:50:11
like God's entered. I'm looking going that guy. >> Yeah. Those um those exercises, those
01:50:18
classes, I was a member of BFT for a while. They're um they're great. It's a
01:50:21
great leveler as well. >> Yes, it is. Yeah. And it's just, you know, a community thing. But the other
01:50:25
thing, you know, I have a group of mates I do car stuff with and I have a group occasionally, you know, they meet at a
01:50:32
bar in Stonefields on a Friday night. I get there about every 8 weeks, but it is
01:50:36
such a grounding thing cuz they don't care who I am. >> You know, they're not there's no sucking
01:50:40
up going on there. It's just a bunch of guys have known each other for a long
01:50:43
time. >> So those things are really important because they keep you grounded.
01:50:47
>> Yeah. Is that sucking up aspect hard for for people in the organization that that
01:50:51
are below you? You like you you you wouldn't know if you could take, you know, trust someone that they're just
01:50:56
being nice and genuine or >> Yeah. The feedback I get from some people is that I don't notice it enough
01:51:00
when it's happening because it and I probably to be honest it doesn't work.
01:51:05
You know I I you read a overly salesy person pretty quickly and you go look I you know
01:51:11
>> I'd rather you just you know remove the adjectives just tell me straight what
01:51:15
you've got done you know trust me to interpret whether that was a really good
01:51:18
thing. >> Um you you mentioned this before when you were talking about your your six
01:51:23
week stint at Stanford. You did the uh San Francisco marathon, did you say? Yeah. And you've done a few. You've
01:51:28
you've done the uh you've done the New York Marathon for cat the cat trust.
01:51:31
>> Yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah. Which is >> funny. I saw him last night at a
01:51:35
different dinner, Tony Carter, who was CEO at Food Stuffs North Island one before two before me.
01:51:42
>> So there was him, then Mar Jordan, then me. Um, and it was his farewell from
01:51:45
Food Stuffs which um, and and Katrina from Catwalk was there and she came off stage in the in the chair, you know, and
01:51:52
so that's already a you know, I'm under threat cuz how can you say no to that?
01:51:56
Um, and she said, I want you to do New York Marathon. And I said, you have to be joking. Like, you know, you know,
01:52:01
good joke. She said, "No, I want you to do it." And you sort of on that night I
01:52:04
said, "Yes." And then next morning, you go, "Oh my god, what have I done?
01:52:07
>> What have I signed up for?" Uh, and I think it was less than 12 months from
01:52:12
someone who has never run for a sport thing to doing that. Um, and you learned so much during that. You learned that
01:52:20
the training is, you know, it's huge commitment in time. Um, you learned that
01:52:24
you don't wear white shirts when you're fat cuz your nipples bleed and you look
01:52:27
horrible. You you learn, you know, foods and so many things you learn doing that. Um,
01:52:34
and you learn about, you know, so competitiveness and, you know, so I had a a great guy supporting me as a coach.
01:52:41
Um, you know, and you learned that you follow a technique that it's a science
01:52:45
to it. It's not just do the work. Um we had an incredible fundraising event that
01:52:51
turned out to be very connected to Rugby World Cup because uh the the um patron of Catw walkers
01:52:59
Zara Phillips and if you remember there's a little story about her husband playing for the England rugby team and
01:53:04
some behavior issues in Queenstown and stuff and she came down to New Zealand during the Rugby World Cup to say hello
01:53:09
but she didn't go to see him first. He came to our fundraising event on the night. And where it connects the dots a
01:53:15
little bit is a wonderful woman named Marie who was in my team at Telecom at the time in the Croch earthquakes who
01:53:21
was our only injured person. So she is now a tetroplegic in a chair. We brought her up to Aland. They met, you know. So
01:53:30
it was funny how that one commitment to do that run bought a whole lot of things
01:53:33
together and amazing. What a privilege. Um and I set myself a target for that first marathon and got it, you know. So
01:53:41
>> what was the target? >> Under four hours and >> Oh, you did it sub four
01:53:44
>> 356 >> mate that's awesome. >> Yeah. So so I then went on to do San
01:53:49
Francisco which I had not trained for at all. So that was a bit you know and Queenstown which was 201 15. Um and it
01:53:58
was the year that it rained for 3 hours and hailed for an hour. It was it was mindblowingly horrible. Um but yeah 4
01:54:06
and a half hours I think you know we got it done. >> Oh still getting it done. Um, yeah,
01:54:10
Queenstown Marathon. It's very, very misleading, isn't it? You get to the
01:54:12
airport and there's murals everywhere saying flat out beautiful. Nothing flat
01:54:16
about it. Especially around Lake Hayes. >> No, that's a that's a fair trading.
01:54:19
>> Terrible. >> Do you have any political aspirations? >> No, not at all.
01:54:24
>> Not now. Not Not ever. Never say never. >> No. >> No. >> No. It's funny. I don't know why you get
01:54:29
asked that question from time to time and you just, you know, I I I worry that in an age of populism, you have to do
01:54:38
things that aren't necessarily your position, you know, to to engage and and
01:54:43
I just can't do that. >> Mhm. >> Um, having said that, I also have huge
01:54:47
respect for the people that do. You know, one of the rules I always have is if you're not prepared to do it, don't
01:54:51
crit don't criticize. you know, >> you can't, you know, you can disagree on
01:54:55
policy and position and try and engage and partner, but don't criticize something you're not prepared to do.
01:55:00
>> Yeah. >> Um, so, you know, and the one thing I would say, you know, from the ones, you
01:55:05
know, you spend time with them, they work incredibly hard. They genuinely are there for a better New Zealand. They
01:55:10
just sometimes hold a different view of how >> and that's, you know, that's okay and we
01:55:14
need it, you know. So, always respect people who stand up and do it. It's just
01:55:18
not me. M >> I suppose I just ask that because after Sir John Key went from the corporate
01:55:23
world into politics, I feel like there's a lot of um business leaders that sort
01:55:25
of feel like they uh they could do it. He like paved the way. >> Yeah. And I do think it's really
01:55:30
valuable to have had >> business experience or organizational experience, you know,
01:55:35
>> any career that has been doing one thing for your whole career, that's you know,
01:55:39
can be a challenge. And I think politics is no different. So >> I think people who bring real world
01:55:43
stuff to it really matters. >> When are you at your happiest? When am I happiest? Look, sometimes it's
01:55:52
driving with mates, you know. Sometimes it's, you know, when family and, you
01:55:57
know, catching up and doing great things, you know, when when you've got a son who's traveling a lot and a daughter
01:56:01
who lives, you know, some, you know, so you're getting together only sometimes.
01:56:05
Um, you know, sometimes it's, you know, when you win, you know, like like we,
01:56:09
>> you know, when you've had something go well and you're able to celebrate it,
01:56:12
you know, so I think it, you know, it's it's about moments and people and
01:56:17
experiences. >> You you still got a good relationship with your kids. The reason I ask that is
01:56:22
like the careers you've had must come with huge amount of sacrifice in terms
01:56:25
of time. >> They do. And I was very very lucky that my wife was prepared to be, you know,
01:56:30
the the committed parent, the one that was there all the time for them. you know, not not everyone makes that choice
01:56:35
and very lucky to have that. >> Yeah. >> Um and and they are great kids, you
01:56:39
know, and it's one thing, you know, one of the greatest joy as a parent is when
01:56:42
other people say, "Hey, you know, your son or daughter, they're, you know, is a
01:56:45
great person and as a >> you know, and you see them with good friends and you see them doing things
01:56:50
that are meaningful and you go, this is really cool." Um, >> and you know, I really feel for parents
01:56:55
of kids who aren't sure what they want to do in the world. That must be the hardest thing cuz how do you, you know,
01:57:00
you you're in that funny hands-on, hands-off situation where you've got to
01:57:04
let them carve their own way, but you so desperately want them to >> end up Well, I was very lucky that they
01:57:10
are both quite clear and very purposeful. >> Um, you know, I really hope my daughter
01:57:15
doesn't listen to this cuz she's going to give me such a hard time. >> Yeah. Do you think they'd listen to
01:57:20
this? Two hours of the old man yapping away or uh >> probably not. No. >> And if she did, why would she give you a
01:57:26
hard time? Oh, cuz that's her thing. We are two alike, you know. You know, we
01:57:30
have a >> we have a relationship that's you know just you know it it's we poke each other
01:57:36
but also >> whenever you know something important is going down she comes straight to me you
01:57:41
know so and I always want that to be the case. I think that's one thing you know
01:57:45
I've always tried to do and I think you know for any parent has always said it
01:57:48
does not matter what the situation is what you've done where you are you can
01:57:52
come here >> and you'll be loved and safe. >> Yeah. cuz men, you know, if they haven't
01:57:56
got that, that's that's a shame, you know. So, that's so important. >> So, would you say roasting is your love
01:58:02
language? >> Yes. >> That's good. That's good. It's it's not
01:58:07
for everyone. Um >> I think the last message I got was something in her car, you know, it's a
01:58:13
piece of upholstery or plastic that you know on the on the A-pillar and it had come off and she just sent me a photo
01:58:17
saying how to fix and I went back with how did break. you know, it's a good word economy.
01:58:26
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's just Yeah. >> When when was the last time you cried?
01:58:31
>> Oh, >> look, you know, sometimes it can be a movie. Sometimes it can be
01:58:37
>> um it's one of the things, you know, so you know, if you've gone through life
01:58:41
and you've spoken at funerals of people you loved uh or people you were close
01:58:45
to, >> you know, and I find it hard to get through, you know, if you've been given
01:58:50
the privilege of eulogy, I find it hard to get through that sometimes. Um, and people often ask, you know, how do I
01:58:56
write a good one? Because if you've communicated, you sort of, you know, they think. One thing I did say after a
01:59:01
particularly bad couple of years, I said, look, I'm just not available anymore. I don't don't want to do
01:59:05
anymore. Um, >> but I think one of the things is just say it to yourself several times. I find
01:59:10
things sneak up on you. >> You know, you a moment comes through your mind and you go, ah, you I'm just
01:59:14
I'm feeling it. Um and it's most it's always about people things and about you
01:59:20
know >> um and particularly you know one one someone told me ages ago you know when
01:59:27
when you lose someone and it's usually you know it's often a a tragic or sad
01:59:31
you know it's a it's a disease that's occurred or a sickness that's occurred.
01:59:34
>> Um and someone said you know we're not sad about what is because you don't want
01:59:37
that person suffering they the way they were or you know or or being in a bad situation. It's about, you know, we miss
01:59:44
what is not, which is their presence, their time, their, you know, and so you keep reminding yourself you've had the
01:59:48
privilege of their presence. >> Um, >> yeah, that's >> Yeah. No,
01:59:54
I, you know, I'm not, I do get emotional. Don't love it when you do. You know, you sort of, you know, like
02:00:00
most men, you go, I don't do that. >> I think How, how old are you? >> 59.
02:00:04
>> 59. Yeah, I'm 53. I feel like it's a generational thing, but I'm I'm getting
02:00:08
more emotional as I as I get into this >> this era of my life. And I'm I'm I'm
02:00:13
here for it, too. >> Yeah. Look, I I I think it's the complete set, you know. It' be a shame
02:00:18
not to be, >> you know, >> but it was frowned upon um like when we were coming through the the ranks, I
02:00:23
guess. >> Yeah. I think it just made people uncomfortable. They didn't know what to
02:00:26
do next, you know. I don't think I would have known what to do next was someone,
02:00:29
you know, >> whereas just saying are you okay? >> Arm around the shoulder. That's all it
02:00:33
needs. >> Yeah. Does have you sort of found vulnerability has its place in
02:00:37
leadership? >> A million%. Yeah. Like the most powerful thing you can do is say I didn't get
02:00:42
that right. >> Because you can spend a lot of time building your case for why you might
02:00:48
have been right as opposed to just going I didn't get that right. And that that
02:00:51
empowers everyone else to be able to say that >> and it empowers a better idea. You know
02:00:57
cuz cuz if you are going I'm just going to defend where I was at and never be
02:01:01
wrong. It's that kills innovation kills you know it kills everything. >> It's almost like a dictatorship at that
02:01:07
point isn't it? >> Yeah. just being able to go, okay, fair call. >> Yeah. Well, it's like you sort of said
02:01:11
at the beginning of the the chat, um if if you're doing media interviews, um
02:01:15
there's a bit some power in saying, "I don't know," or "I don't have the answer
02:01:17
to that." >> Well, and you know, and sometimes, not as often, but sometimes we got it wrong,
02:01:23
>> you know. So, you know, and and it's really important. I think it's a key
02:01:26
leadership thing to front for the team when you got it wrong >> and say, "We got it wrong. I'm sorry.
02:01:31
This is what we're doing to fix that." >> What are you most afraid of?
02:01:37
not not winning, not achieving, you know, when you're very achievement driven, you know, not doing that is not
02:01:44
comfortable. >> Yeah. When when you're that competitive, how does how does losing sit with you?
02:01:49
Are you you able to reframe it as um yeah, we don't lose, we learn, or any sort of catchphrases.
02:01:55
>> Yeah. You hear that sometimes and go, "Oh, come on." You know,
02:01:58
>> it still sucks. You frame it anyway. Lipstick on a pig. >> That's exactly right. It does still
02:02:02
suck. One really important thing is never lose the ability to congratulate the winner. Like like you know being the
02:02:09
southpost that's not that's not leadership. So >> you know and you know in business that
02:02:14
doesn't often happen. I'm not ringing all worse to say well done but um but
02:02:18
you know the situation. So it's really important to be able to congratulate someone who did better. Um and then it's
02:02:25
you know but but and also you know be able to be okay with not being first. just do something about it,
02:02:32
>> you know. Um or genuinely go, you know what, that that was amazing. Whoever
02:02:36
that was, they did a really good job. >> Mhm. >> The next thing I was going to ask you is
02:02:41
um what's your best and worst habits? >> Um I feel like that last answer you gave
02:02:46
may maybe be it. Maybe your best and worst habit is the same thing that competitive streak.
02:02:50
>> It can be. Yeah. Cuz you know, I remember when you first start getting that feedback, you go, "No, no, it's
02:02:55
achievement orientation." And then you go, "Hang on a minute." You need to
02:02:58
listen and go, "What's the bad side of competitive?" >> I I, you know, listened to some of the
02:03:03
other cars. I knew you asked the what's your worst habit story. Mine's FOMO.
02:03:07
>> Oh, is it? >> Yeah. >> When do you get FOMO? >> Oh, it can be anything. It can be a car.
02:03:11
It can be a trinket. It can be an event. >> You know, I I would often be told, why
02:03:17
do you stack your diary so full? And you go, cuz I wanted to be there, there, there. You know, it's
02:03:21
>> whereas being okay to go, you know what? That's fine. Don't need to be at
02:03:25
everything. don't need to take every opportunity. And a little bit in business, too. You know, sometimes, you
02:03:29
know, there's a great rule that says, don't bark at every passing car. Um, you
02:03:33
know, not every opportunity is one we need to do. Sometimes being great at your core day in day out is the most
02:03:41
powerful thing. >> Are you Are you good at saying no to things that you don't want to do?
02:03:44
>> No. No. So, I'm learning to be >> Is that Is that why you're here today?
02:03:48
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That is it. No, it's it's Yeah. No, I'm not as good
02:03:55
as I need to be. >> And more importantly, better at going, you know what, there's a person in my
02:03:59
team that would really be great at that. >> You know, because sometimes you confuse
02:04:03
leadership means I need to step up with leadership means I've got an amazing
02:04:08
team. What we need to do is put the right person in front of this and they'll grow and develop from it.
02:04:13
>> Do you have any entrepreneurial ambitions or anything? >> Oh yes. You know, like being on the
02:04:19
board at Ice House for nearly 10 years, >> you know, you were spending your time in
02:04:23
admiration of entrepreneurs. You know, one of the >> brand things the guys did there was talk
02:04:28
about grit, you know, and the grit that it takes to build a business, to start something, to do that. Um, you know, I'm
02:04:36
invested in a bunch of startup businesses and things like that. You know, this is, you know, it's it's I
02:04:41
have a passion for that much more than probably I do for large corporate organizations. It's probably why I love
02:04:47
what this food stuffs co-op is 104 years on. It's just a collection of entrepreneurs running a business. Um,
02:04:53
and you know, huge respect for the people that own our stores that day in day out are going, you know, they're
02:05:01
everything from facing a really angry customer and butchery to dealing with, have I got the cash flow right to pay
02:05:05
the stock bill, >> you know, and, you know, no, people don't see all of that stuff because
02:05:10
we've we've had a couple of years of a different story being told, >> but it is just like any business.
02:05:16
when your time at food stuff ends um hopefully on your terms. >> Is it is it like an all black coach
02:05:22
where you're either you're being fired or you're going to be I Brad Thorne had a
02:05:27
quote about coaches. It's like you've been fired or you're going to be fired.
02:05:30
>> Yeah. You're being fired or you're you're about to be or some Yeah. Um
02:05:35
that's a really brutal, you know, cuz you're not just being judged by, >> you know, it that one there, there's one
02:05:41
coach, there are lots of observers, there's a nation who are full of opinion,
02:05:45
>> you know, always respect for someone who steps into that role. Um >> and you see some of the calmst, bravest
02:05:51
leaders in that role because they've got so much and they the ability to blinker
02:05:55
and go, I'm just going to make this team amazing. That's you know um look you
02:06:00
know you always you know there's a great saying which is CEOs serve at the pleasure of the board
02:06:04
>> and when the board you know and I I've always said to my chairman who you know
02:06:09
we're very blessed to have a great chair you know our chairs are always a store
02:06:12
owner. So um you know it's amazing to have someone who's got the ability to
02:06:16
govern and govern strongly an organization like this. I've always said to him, hey, if you reach a day where
02:06:21
it's not right, say the word >> because I I never want to be in a situation where it's, you know, going
02:06:27
through a process. We should be big people who can high five and go, it's been great. We're done.
02:06:31
>> Um, and, you know, I think that's really important. I I would like to think I'll
02:06:36
call it before they do because I'd like to think that, you know, I'll go, I know
02:06:40
when I've given everything I know how to give to this and it's chance for someone
02:06:44
else to pick up the energy and run. >> Yeah. You want to Yeah. You don't want
02:06:48
to overstay your welcome at the party. >> No. >> Um, when when you when you do leave, um,
02:06:53
what do you hope people at Food Stuff say about you? >> How would you like to be remembered for
02:06:57
for this role? >> Look, I'd like to, you know, I think authenticity really matters to me. I
02:07:03
think heart and, you know, a a drive for results and success. Um, an ability to build pride in what the people in that
02:07:12
organization do. They should feel proud of what they do. You know, if there's
02:07:15
one thing that makes me sad right now is that we've got a bit of a societal and
02:07:19
political conversation that is trying to make them not proud of what they do. >> And that isn't fair or right. They
02:07:25
should be proud of what they do. Um, and I really, you know, we have a purpose that we wrote about 8 years ago. We had
02:07:31
500 people engaged in it and we basically said our purpose is to make sure New Zealanders get more out of
02:07:37
life. So I'd really like to be able to stand back and go, did what food stuffs
02:07:41
represents in every community through its brands and its stores make people, you know, make sure people got more out
02:07:47
of life. >> You know, I I love some of our stories like, you know, Tamroni had the
02:07:52
supermarket by the railway line. It had been there forever. And often this happens in these regional towns and we
02:07:57
try to do the reverse, which is the new stuff goes to a region first. We had to close the store because the site was the
02:08:04
site we needed to be on and you couldn't trade it and build it because we had to
02:08:06
knock it over and discover there was a train buried under it and a few other things.
02:08:13
And we went the nearest store is 45 to 50 minutes away. How does this community get what it needs? So the team did a
02:08:20
deal with the local college to use their gymnasium for 18 months and we built a new world inside the gym
02:08:26
>> and operated the store out of there while we built the new store. These are
02:08:30
things that only locallyowned New Zealand organizations can do. We're, you know, innovative and think about this
02:08:36
stuff. Those are the things I want to be proud of when you look back, you know, and, you know, really proud of the way
02:08:41
we served the co process. >> Um, and the other thing I'd like to see happen before I'm done is that we become
02:08:49
a national organization, >> you know, because it's just right in terms of its benefit for everybody out
02:08:55
there. M >> you know you look at and go if LD came to New Zealand would they be asked to be
02:09:00
a North and South Island company it's just no way um so when we say to ourselves we need to get better value on
02:09:07
shelf for customers what are the big things we can do that is the biggest thing >> so I would love to pull that off
02:09:16
>> is is that a big deal or is it going to be a hard thing to pull off I mean
02:09:19
>> oh it's been a very hard thing to pull off so it's been >> why is it so difficult
02:09:23
>> um because there is, you know, we need to do as good a job as we can of
02:09:27
communicating why it's the right thing for consumers, >> why it's the right thing for our
02:09:31
suppliers and partners, why it's the right thing for our stakeholders, investors, you know, and there is a, you
02:09:37
know, because there's been a conversation about supermarkets and because there's been so much go on, we
02:09:42
went through a process with the Commerce Commission. Um, they declined it three times. Uh, and we're at the end of that
02:09:49
process, we we can't ask again. Uh the concern is will it work for suppliers
02:09:54
because at the moment a supplier can you know sell to North Island sell to South
02:09:58
Island if there was one would they be one chance and done. Our view on that is quite different which is that we have
02:10:03
three banners. So it's pack and save new world for square. They make different
02:10:06
supplier and ranging decisions. >> We love that we have little suppliers who might start in one town who are in
02:10:14
the new world and grow from there. We have 105 years of that being our story. And you know, last year we added 114 new
02:10:22
New Zealand suppliers and our New Zealand supplier base are growing faster than any other supplier group. So we
02:10:28
look at and go, we're really proud of what we've delivered for that. Merged
02:10:32
would be all of those opportunities still there, but also the chance to go, we'd love to win all of New Zealand and
02:10:37
we could do it. >> So it unlocks hundreds of millions of dollars of cost over a 10-year program
02:10:43
which we could put back in the price. So, and we compete. Now, people look at us and go, "You're big." And you go,
02:10:49
"Hang on a minute. Walworth is eight times our size." >> New Zealand and Australia. Costco are 50
02:10:55
times our size. So, in this industry, I think New Zealanders deserve to have a good New Zealandowned organization and
02:11:02
it can compete with the world's best and that's what's good for consumers.
02:11:06
>> So, we need to be the strongest we can be. So, that's why, you know, we think
02:11:11
it's right. So, as we speak right now today, it's it's in court from the 2nd
02:11:16
to 6th of March is the next step. >> So, >> reading between the lines, it sounds
02:11:20
like um your your job's not done at Food Stuffs until this is done. >> That Yeah, look um I wouldn't want that
02:11:28
to turn into 20 years. That would be that would be good for no one. Uh you know what what we thought would be the
02:11:37
hardest bit about that would be getting the South Island to agree to merge with the North Island. you know, this is
02:11:41
Canterbury plays Oakland. You know, it's a it's that's a hundredy old social, you
02:11:47
know, distance. Um, and we were so proud of, you know, everybody, hundreds of leaders worked to get to a point where
02:11:53
when it went to our owners, our members for a vote, 99 and something% of them on
02:11:58
both islands voted yes. >> Wow. >> Right. So, you went So, you know, that
02:12:02
was we thought that was going to be the real hard bit. Turned out another bit was hard. Um but they you know so you
02:12:09
know that's why we believe in it because they've all said we've heard the story
02:12:12
we've seen the argument we've seen the case let's get it done you know so still
02:12:17
love to see it done it's the right thing to do for our consumers for our suppliers and for New Zealand as a whole
02:12:24
>> because we need a really you know these are high capital businesses >> you know building stores is hundreds of
02:12:30
millions of dollars and so you need scale to get it done >> um but New Zealand has co-ops Right.
02:12:36
You've mentioned Fonta, there's us, there's M 10, there's, you know,
02:12:40
>> it's a funny thing. We have more co-ops in most countries. The reason for that
02:12:43
is our scale. We are low scale. How do you get scale without having to have every single business have it?
02:12:50
>> You form a co-op. That's why it happened in 1922. >> That's why it's time it should be
02:12:54
allowed to be national. >> Gez, you're passionate about it, aren't
02:12:57
you? >> Yeah. Yeah, I am. >> I suppose you got to be. >> That's right.
02:13:01
>> Are you proud of yourself? Not just not just the career thing, but the just the
02:13:05
whole the whole package. >> Um I I struggle with the word because it I I don't like arrogance, you know, and
02:13:12
I I >> that that line between pride and arrogance. Um so if anyone ever said to
02:13:17
me, you're arrogant, I'd be really upset. Um I I you know, I try to be proud, you know, so you try to look back
02:13:24
and go, "Hey, it's turned out okay." you know, and that you know, you've you've
02:13:29
not, you know, I' I'm probably quicker to think about the things that could
02:13:32
have been better rather than the things that were good. >> And maybe that's just part of a natural
02:13:37
drive. >> Yeah. You're part of that competitive journey. >> When the time comes that you pass away,
02:13:44
what hopefully many years from now, what um what three words would you like your
02:13:48
family to and close friends to say about you? Uh, I think, you know, being a a good
02:13:55
parent and person and being someone who cared about people, >> um, someone, you know, someone who who
02:14:02
did okay in life and then made, you know, used that to do well for others. Um, >> you know, I think, um, I read an amazing
02:14:10
book a couple last summer, um, called Die with Zero >> and it was really, >> was it Die with Zero?
02:14:15
>> Die with Zero. >> And it was a really interesting story of, you know, so how do you plan? And it
02:14:19
had a very sobering piece that said, "Go on to these apps and it tells you when
02:14:22
roughly you're going to die >> based on, you know, age, health, stage,
02:14:27
fitness, lifestyle." Yeah. All of that. And you you do that and you go, "Oh,
02:14:31
>> not really sure I wanted that." Um, but, you know, having impact would really
02:14:36
matter. I like people look back and go, there was some stuff he did that turned out good. M
02:14:40
>> you know um and that die of zero it talks about you know one of the things
02:14:45
that really struck home for me was leaving $100,000 in your will to a social interest that you really care about is
02:14:53
less powerful than giving them 50 grand now >> you know so it actually it was like you
02:14:58
know saying >> you know for your kids you know support them now into a home rather than you
02:15:04
know when they've got to 40 or 50 and you've passed >> you know so
02:15:08
>> well so that altruistic piece that you're talking about. You get to
02:15:11
experience, you know, there's that saying giving is better than receiving. You get to experience the uh the joy of
02:15:16
making a difference. >> Yeah. And I get the privilege of that for the organization and you're always
02:15:21
very conscious, you know, that's not my money, that's just I'm part of leading
02:15:25
it. So you you get part of doing the right things for that point of view and then do your own things in your personal
02:15:30
world. Um and and you know but the you know for example one of the things that's been on our minds is you know so
02:15:36
where is our place in social license you know in our in our community support. So
02:15:41
first rule is we make a living in our community not off our community >> right? So you think about that and you
02:15:48
go how do I earn the right to be in this community every week and every one of our owners thinks about that. And then
02:15:53
we go how do we earn the right to be a brand that has a license to operate in New Zealand through what we do. And one
02:15:59
of the things and I, you know, I learned it probably most from great organizations like Main Freight who, you
02:16:03
know, sort of they go, okay, who are our people? Um, they have a lot of bluecollar workforce, a lot of logistics
02:16:09
workforce. >> What matters most is education. So, you know, their big thing is books in
02:16:14
schools and how do they get books into the homes and families so that education begins. You look at us, you go, our job
02:16:20
is food. It's what we do. Uh, food poverty is always going to exist. So, how do we play a role in food poverty?
02:16:25
And that's where the social supermarkets idea came from. Um because it's about
02:16:30
dignity and respect, but also getting to what people need. It's how we support
02:16:35
all the food banks we do and all, you know, so we do the thing we're best at,
02:16:38
which is helping to solve that problem. >> Um so it's a real privilege. You know,
02:16:44
this year we worked with Kindness Collective. They they had an amazing store in Odo that was part supermarket
02:16:50
that we made happen and part gift store with toys. And then they bought in people they support that they know. Um,
02:16:57
and watching people fill a trolley with gifts for kids that they never would have got another way and fill another
02:17:02
trolley with food that was going to be part of them having somewhat of a Christmas and you just go,
02:17:07
>> you know, this is an amazing privilege to be able to be here. Um, and you know,
02:17:11
I just worked checkout where there was no money involved, but you know, um, just just saying to people, have you got
02:17:18
everything you need? And you know, where you going to be for Christmas and what are you going to do? and seeing that
02:17:22
stuff for real. >> This has been a great chat today. Do you know how long it's been?
02:17:27
>> No idea. >> Two and a quarter. >> Right. >> Two and a quarter. It's a long it's a
02:17:31
long conversation. Um but it's been great. How is it for you? >> Uh like you said, it's just it's been
02:17:38
>> uh it's felt really encouraging and safe and interesting and you know, you noted
02:17:43
when I came in someone you know, someone had put together a pile of notes which we haven't looked at.
02:17:46
>> You know, it's been a great conversation. >> Yeah, it's awesome. Um, yeah. Well, you
02:17:51
can't say it. But, um, I'm proud of you and it's been really nice to have you on
02:17:55
the podcast today. >> Thanks. And there's something I've learned is just say thanks when someone
02:17:59
says something like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's another Kiwi thing.
02:18:02
We're not good at taking compliments. >> No, no, no. We usually come back with an
02:18:06
uh >> Well, I've even noticed my my girlfriend do it. If someone comments on the
02:18:10
clothes she's wearing, she'll say, "Oh, yeah. I got it on sale." Or,
02:18:13
>> you know, it's like we we just can't just sit there and take a compliment.
02:18:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Being able to say, "Thank you. I really like it,
02:18:20
>> you know. >> Yeah. >> Well, Chris Quinn, I I could sit here
02:18:23
all day and pick your brains about leadership. Um, but it's been great getting to know the man behind the
02:18:27
titles today, and I can't thank you enough for coming on my podcast. >> Thank you. I really enjoyed it.